Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 14, 2015, at 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My guess: I think the demand for roadside charging will be fairly high as (another guess) 30%-50% of the residences will not have access to domestic charging - because they are in a multistory dwelling with few (or no) off street parking spaces. Pretty much every parking space is within shouting distance of a lightbulb, and it wouldn't take all that much to splice in 110V / 15A circuits to all those spaces. We hear more and more news stories about apartments providing plugs in the parking stalls, street meters doubling as charging points, and so on. I bet that's the standard we'll see: just as you expect a light switch at shoulder hight just inside every door on the same side as the knob, you'll expect an outlet at every parking spot. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/ba79b716/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 14, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'd guess that one nightmare scenario for the utilities is for everyone in the ritzy neighborhood to arrive home with their Teslas, and plug them all into their superchargers at the same time! Indeed, that may well be a significant part of the behind-the-scenes thinking with their new Powerwall product. Remember how we were discussing dump packs for that Israeli high-current battery that we suspect could be vaporware? The Powerwall would likely make an excellent dump pack for a Model S. After all, Tesla is selling the Powerwall as a way to use off-peak electricity during on-peak times...and few if any home appliances are as power-hungry as a rapidly-charging EV. Yeah, a single module is only 7-10 kWh...but I bet that's right in line with typical daily charging demands as reported over-the-air back to Tesla. Hadn't thought of it before...but, now that I have, I'd be surprised if Tesla engineers haven't. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/413a0961/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 14, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: dump pack Thinking this through a bit more...I'm not sure that it would make sense for a rapid-charging station to operate without a substantial dump pack of its own. Without one, you're left needing a grid connection able to meet your peak demand, which will be truly insane. Imagine a not-too-distant future where luxury EVs come with 100 kWh packs that people expect to charge in ten minutes; that's over half a megawatt. Now imagine a convoy of such traveling together on a road trip, all of them simultaneously pulling up to each of the 36 slots in the station. No way is that station going to have a 20 MW feed from the grid...that's about 5% - 20% of the output of a utility-scale generating unit. And even the utilities themselves would have problems running such a facility because of the sharply peaking nature of the load. But if, on average over the course of a day including times when all slots are empty, the station only sees one or two stalls in use at a time...well, a megawatt utility connection is still pretty freakin' huge -- 1 kV @ 1 kA, or however you want to balance the two -- but much more manageable. You'd keep a constant rate (or, perhaps, varying per utility feedback but averaged to a constant) of charge going into your massive dump pack, and each of the slots would feed from the dump pack, rapidly depleting it for just a short period of time as the grid constantly trickle-fills it back up again. Again...the scale of such operations pretty much demands that they be insanely expensive, especially compared against a 110V / 15A overnight charge that'll more than satisfy almost all of almost everybody's needs once vehicles can reliably get over 200 miles on a full charge. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/b3cbd469/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 14, 2015, at 6:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 13 May 2015 at 10:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote: 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in a residential setting. Not so far beyond at all. A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 240 volt service. If devoted entirely to an EV such an electrical service could charge an EV at a continuous rate of over 38kW. Many modern mcmansions, which are often built by the dozens in high end developments, now have 400 amp service. This would allow for a continous power of almost 77kW. Thus I'd say that the electrical infrastructure for 60kW charging is fairly widely available right now. Er...no. Indeed, I think you just proved my point. 60kW is over half again as much as you get at the meter in most homes, and nearly 80% of what you get at the meter in a McMansion. How many people living in McMansions are going to be happy shutting down basically everything, especially all the air conditioning and pool equipment they paid so much extra to get the 400A service for in the first place, every time they want to charge the car? Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, almost as many as will physically fit in a typical panel...and just the cost of the copper for the wiring is going to be insane -- especially since the meter is, as often as not, on the opposite side of the house as the garage. And the cost of retrofitting a neighborhood for 400A...it'd be cheaper to cover all the rooftops in solar panels, add a bunch of batteries, and cut the grid connection entirely. I just don't see it. What I expect to see is, especially when 200+ mile ranges become the new normal, for most people to do almost all their charging on a 110V / 15A (or maybe 30A, since that's not uncommon in garages) circuit, the types of people who buy the top trim level packages to get L2 chargers installed, and then a footnote for some sort of on-the-road rapid charging that only gets used out on road trips or out of desperation. And I expect to see those roadside charging stations struggle for profitability at the same time they charge exorbitant fees b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/b1dca03f/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 13, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly everybody and L2 being overkill, I would ask based on what data? Sorry...I had in mind overnight home charging, with the assumption that the 20 kWh you get from 12 hours @ 110V / 15A is going to be good enough for as many miles as nearly everybody is going to need in a day, especially given the types of efficiency figures we're headed towards and that Lawrence was advocating. At 250 Wh / mile, that's 80 miles. Even at 500 Wh / mile, that's still 40 miles, the range that Chevy targeted for the Volt as almost good enough for 100% electric for almost everybody. Yes, there will be exceptions...but how many people regularly drive more than 40 miles in a day, and, of those, how many are going to want to do so in an EV that's only doing 500 Wh / mile? Even more important...how many people are going to want to spend lots of extra money on an at-home fast charger if overnight L1 charging always leaves them with 80 miles more in the morning than they had at the end of the day before? b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: But real range needs are based on maximums. I'd agree with that. And I hope I'm not coming across as suggesting that in-home L1 charging is the only way that an EV would ever be charged. My point is that most people don't need more than L1 chargers in their home, if we're assuming that there are faster charging options on the road. But the resulting problem is that that sets an expectation of, say, at $0.10 / kWh and a 50 kWh (usable) pack and 250 wH / mile...a 200-mile range that costs $5 in fuel in the tank. And what roadside rapid charger of any capability, let alone a supercharger, can compete with costs like that? That big gap between the cost for most cars to mostly be charged and the minimum cost for profitability for rapid charging stations is going to be a challenge. If batteries were cheap, one solution would be cars with even bigger batteries. If you drive a few extra miles in a day and more than your charger can top off overnight, no big deal so long as you don't do that every day for several days on end. But batteries aren't cheap, and you've still got a problem for multi-day road trips. Maybe the hotels invest in rapid chargers that're comfortable putting a 500-mile charge into a typical car over the course of eight hours, and the expense is included in the room rate? Because, even at 250 wH / mile, you're still looking at 70A @ 220V for that, more than is realistic for any home charger. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 13, 2015, at 1:44 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'm coming from a perspective of practical experience with an electric car as our main vehicle. The big factor you left out is daily driving mileage. If you're putting 80 miles a day on the car, yes, L1 is probably borderline at best for you. But, for most people, half that is an unusually busy driving day. Not all people, of course, by any means...but most. Remember: most automotive warranties are in the range of 10,000 miles / year, which is equal to 40 miles per day, five days a week, fifty weeks a year; if you're doing more than that, you're probably beyond your warranty's coverage, which most people don't do. And, with a 250 Wh / mile vehicle (such as the LEAF), 40 miles is a mere 10 kWh and well under 7 hours at L1 rates. If it takes less time to charge the car for an entire day's worth of driving than it does to get a night's sleep, any sort of argument for faster charging as the normal mode is damned hard to make. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: UK's 1000hp 1975 Electric Enfield (v)
On May 13, 2015, at 12:12 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Later in the weekend, the team turned up the wick and the car sprinted through the quarter mile in 12.56 seconds at 101.43 mph. Quite respectable in and of itself, and most impressive in a car that started life as the antithesis of fast! The batteries pack delivers 370 volts, 600 kilowatts, more than 2000 amps, 1003hp, and 1200 lb-ft of torque – all while weighing less than 360 lbs. 370 V * 2000 A = 740 kW, not 600 kW, and that's going to work out to be much closer to about the same numeric value for horsepower rather than 1003, so something isn't adding up. Very lightweight, though, for that much power. Be nice to know the Ah / kWh capacity...and the source and price Regardless, in a vehicle that weighs under 2,000 pounds, he's got waay more power than he'll ever actually be able to put to the ground -- exactly the kind of problem you want in drag racing. Just taking that 1200 lb-ft of torque at face value...that's well over half the weight of the car, meaning that, assuming tires roughly 24 in diameter (give or take), even with no gear reduction (fourth gear equivalent and a 1:1 rear differential) he can _still_ break the tires loose. Insane! His big challenge is traction, including weight and balance management (especially getting the weight to shift to the rear axle without going over backwards) since he's not likely to be able to do much more with the tires. Seems like a really fun project, and I bet it's even more fun to drive! b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
On May 13, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So I think the engineers need to put their thinking caps on, reduce the weight of every vehicle, make the CD of all new vehicles .16 or so and stop making these energy hogs. That's definitely where a good deal of engineering effort needs to go, no matter what...but we've also got a bit of a conundrum on our hands. Most EV charging can and should reasonably be expected to be done while the vehicle is parked, especially overnight at home. L1 chargers are today and always will be good enough for that for nearly everybody, and L2 is pretty much guaranteed overkill for nearly all the rest. ...but...unless the per-charge mileage is in the four-digit range, there will be situations where people will want to charge, wherever they happen to be, and they're not going to be happy if it takes more than ten or fifteen minutes. And 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in a residential setting. The *real* problem is that I don't think that there's an overlap between what rapid charging is likely to cost and what people are likely to be willing to pay, especially when they're used to paying on the order of $0.10 / kWh at home. And with low demand, the prices would have to be even higher since they won't be spread out over as many customers, driving down demand even further. But without the option for rapid charging, a small but significant minority of the miles people unthinkingly drive today simply can't be done in an electric vehicle, creating a chicken-and-egg problem. That's part of Tesla's marketing brilliance with their own rapid charger network, but I don't know that it's something that can realistically be made universal. Perhaps our best real-world hope is for Tesla to offer universal adapters to their superchargers for about the same price as they charge to upgrade their vehicles to supercharger capability. (Same price because Tesla's price includes their capital and operating expenses for the network, not just whatever is done to the car itself.) Done right, that would allow the minority who need to make road trips in non-Tesla vehicles to do so...and it even opens up the possibility for renting the adapters for rare road trips. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: UK's 1000hp 1975 Electric Enfield (v)
On May 13, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I thought that torque was calculated/measured at the wheels It can be measured anywhere, but is typically specified at the output shaft of the motor (whether electric or ICE) unless otherwise noted, for the simple reason that gearing changes torque. Horsepower can also be measured anywhere, and is generally assumed to be at the motor unless it's specified to be at the wheels. Both figures, of course, depend on engine RPM, and peak value is generally specified even though average torque tells you a lot more about what the engine can do than its peak. If it's at the motor, the torque gets multiplied by whatever the final gear ratio is. The ICE half of my Mustang is going to have a 3.89:1 differential, and the engine will put out a relatively constant 400+ ft-lbs between 3000 and 6000 RPM...which works out to about 1600 ft-pounds at the wheels in fourth gear, and nearly 5000 ft-pounds in first -- again, a problem in a ~3000 pound nose-heavy car, but a good problem to have. When I put a dual AC-35 with ~2.5:1 reduction to a front wheel drive axle into the car in the next phase of the project, all-electric mode should be superior to what the original 260 cu. in. V8 was capable of...and hybrid mode is going to be insane, to use Tesla's word. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] SolaRoad cycle path electricity yield exceeds expectations
Interesting potential source of future EV energy: http://phys.org/news/2015-05-solaroad-path-electricity-yield.html I'm a bit skeptical, though...by its very nature, anything put on the road is going to have to be a lot more durable and therefore expensive than what you'd put on a rooftop. Still, it's definitely a neat idea! b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] pouch cells
On May 12, 2015, at 12:33 PM, ken via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: How are they for $ vs. power density. Middle of the road, and a lot more than a LEAF battery from Hybrid Auto Center. They're also rather below average in terms of $ / max discharge rate, and on the heavy side. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
Very interesting...there's a 2012 w/ 15k miles listed not far from here for just under $9k; Leafs look like they tend to be at least half again as much. Something like that belongs on a short list. Thanks! b On May 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Our iMiev has served us really well, and is much easier to get in and out of than a Leaf, which is probably a consideration for older people. Some people can't get past the looks, but once you get in and drive it, you appreciate the spartan (easy) interface, visibility (as compared to the Leaf), space inside, ease of parking, and good capability. And, used prices are now quite low because a lot of the lease deals made back in 2013 are coming due. Low mile 2012 iMiev's are listed anywhere from $7.5 to $10k. If you want to go for a new one, some people have found some amazing deals (one guy under $10k) after the federal and state tax credits - though finding new might be a little harder as Mitsubishi hasn't shipped a lot of 2014 or 2016 models. (Incidentally, I don't know of any teething pains on the iMiev; ther's been only minor recall work since we had it, I'm not aware of any heat related issues on the battery pack and I've heard of only a couple pack failures in the US.) You can see several people on the www.myimiev.com/forum/ has a lot of information including several threads on buying a used iMiev. Good luck! Dan - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Inexpensive-retiree-friendly-EV-tp4675387p4675448.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150510/4e7a9f44/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes
On May 8, 2015, at 4:11 PM, len moskowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes There's some industrial-grade technobabble in that article. Be wonderful if there's some substance to the claims, of course, but I'm not holding my breath. The racing crowd will certainly sit up and notice if it's true. A battery that can charge in five minutes can presumably discharge in five minutes, too. The obvious questions are the usual of how you're going to move that much current and where it's going to come from. They're talking about something on the order of a megawatt, far more than any residential outlet could even theoretically handle. Call it 5,000 amps at 200 volts -- an hundred times the beefiest circuit you're likely to find in your house, and far more than what your utility provides you at the meter. The only realistic option I can think of is to have two sets of batteries, one in the car and another in the charger. The batteries in the charger charge at whatever rate the wall outlet supports for however long it takes to fill them, and then they dump their charge into the batteries in the car at full speed. (And I hate to think of the connector you need to be able to not melt with that kind of current!) All that applies in spades for public charging stations. You'd need a substation-grade power connection plus an huge bank of similar batteries. That's gonna be a damned expensive capital investment, and that cost will get passed on to those charging there, driving down demand and thus jacking the prices even further...hard to see how it could be profitable enough to make business sense. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150508/ddf1d6c4/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tesla's powerwall is already sold out through mid 2016
On May 7, 2015, at 1:08 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Whether we argue that it makes sense financially, people are jumping in the frey. That is fantastic news for _everybody!_ If even the Gigafactory can't keep up, that tells you something huge about demand...and means that there will be lots of people inside and outside of Tesla scrambling to meet it b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150507/ddc5f619/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: WA Loves Electric Cars, But Gets Very Few
On May 6, 2015, at 9:13 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Presumably more choices will mean more cars. One size never fits all. And there's another factor. Our market is capitalistic, yes, but far from an actual free market. This is a good thing; monopolies are an inevitable result of a free market, and monopolies are bad for everybody but the monopolists. But that means that we wind up tipping the scales in various ways. We've tipped the scales an awful lot in favor of ICE vehicles, so it's only fair to tip the scales a bit in favor of electric vehicles as well. It's only taken a very little bit of said tipping to create huge successes for electric vehicles, which should be a rather good indicator that electric vehicles are superior to their ICE counterparts. The rational thing would be to keep tipping those scales until the electrics are no longer at a relative disadvantage compared with all the support ICEs get. Again...anybody else remember the automotive industry bailout, or the trillions we spend on wars overseas primarily in strategically critical oil-producing regions? If a few piddling little compliance laws can do what they've done in the face of that huge advantage ICEs get, imagine what it'd be like all else being equal. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
On May 6, 2015, at 2:51 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I don't follow your reasoning. There are reasons not to like a lease but the fixed income aspect is not usually one of them. In fact, often it's the opposite: people on fixed incomes like leases because they are predictable and the payments are (usually) lower than loan-to-buy payments. Sorry...I realize I left out a detail obvious enough to me I didn't think to include it...they won't be getting a loan, no matter the vehicle; it'll be cash, with the largest share coming from the (presumed) insurance settlement, and, if need be (and it likely would) supplemented from savings from either or both them and me. A quick search for a Leaf in my area (Seattle) shows several used ones for sale ranging from $11K and up. That's likely the sort of thing we'd wind up looking at. I guess what I'm asking from the list...is advice on which models are most likely to be good values as used vehicles given all the other considerations -- hot climate, ~50 mile range, freeway capable, reliable, etc. ...and possibly as well advice on what to avoid...I seem to remember Leafs up to a certain year died quick deaths in the heat...? b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
Thanks, but I don't think a lease is likely to be especially desirable. It's that fixed income Social Security bit...an extra triple digits per month would be a disturbingly large fraction of their budget. That's part of the reason why I think an EV would be ideal, if a suitable model is affordable; no more gasoline bills, and much cheaper per mile to charge. Once the purchase is made, it'd practically be free transportation for them. b On May 6, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Might be worth checking out the lease options. I'm leasing a Smart ED for $124/mo with $250 down. A Smart's not the best freeway car but it's great around town. I've seen deals on Leafs for under $250/month. --Rick On 05/06/2015 04:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, my parents are okay. But, apparently, their '89 Lincoln Town car might not be...somebody pulled out of a driveway in front of them faster than could be avoided...resulting in smoke coming from the engine compartment and suspected possible frame damage. So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple? It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage. The biggest potential problem would be budget...they're on a fixed income. They have some, but not much, money they can supplement an insurance settlement with, and I can probably pitch in a few pennies. I'm hoping the used market is mature enough that there might be something worthwhile there. Suggestions most appreciated. Thanks, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
So, my parents are okay. But, apparently, their '89 Lincoln Town car might not be...somebody pulled out of a driveway in front of them faster than could be avoided...resulting in smoke coming from the engine compartment and suspected possible frame damage. So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple? It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage. The biggest potential problem would be budget...they're on a fixed income. They have some, but not much, money they can supplement an insurance settlement with, and I can probably pitch in a few pennies. I'm hoping the used market is mature enough that there might be something worthwhile there. Suggestions most appreciated. Thanks, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] virtual power plant (battery backup thinking)
On May 5, 2015, at 7:34 AM, Cruisin via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Why not buy a Volt 16.5kwh battery and add your own inverter for a backup. That's what my customers are doing. Where does one actually buy a Volt battery? I've looked a couple times without much success. I suspect it might be well worth considering for a PHEV conversion I have in mind to do Thanks! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150505/7bb1ad0d/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Enclosed human-electric hybrid spins around the UCF campus
Looks like a good product. Be great to see plenty of those sorts of vehicles on the road. b On May 3, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote: That looks a lot like the ELF product of the company I just started working for. I was previously a beta tester for them. It is a good design. I have been hired to develop new products, but I hope I can add to their manufacturing, purchasing and other efforts as well. Since I am an employee you have to take what I say with an open skeptical mind. I do still have the beta I bought, and commuted 25 miles each way with. (25 miles takes about 1kWh at 48VDC nominal on my older machine. I degraded my LFP batteries by charging them fully in the hot sun, and have not bought new packs. Now my commute is too long. I think their current packs are better than the ones I have, but I have no personal experience with them. The ELF they sell now is better than mine in a number of ways. Fit and finish, some suspension improvements, many small manufacturing details are better now.. Mpre options are available. It's effective and fun in an urban setting. It is easy for car drivers to see, and car traffic seems to treat you well - I have found it makes things go smoother if you wave people around you when it makes sense - some people just will not cross a double yellow without permission.. In suburbia you may want to find more of the 25mph roads, but it really gets you across intersections, up to speed from a dead stop, and up hills in a way no HPV only bike can do. On 25mph residential streets you will almost never hold up car traffic. On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On May 3, 2015, at 12:27 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The Human Assisted Electric Vehicle could reach speeds of up to 40 mph and has a range of about 50 miles. The entire vehicle cost about $4,000 to produce. Velomobiles are wonderful, as are electric-assist velomobiles. I'm not so sure they'll well suited for American suburbia...but there are definitely those for whom such a vehicle is perfect. The thing that surprises me, though, is that price tag. It's not that hard to spend that much on a recumbent trike, let alone add a fairing and an electric motor, and velomobiles generally start at that price and up -- potentially way up for high performance ones. Anybody know any more about this one? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150503/22e9d827/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. Warren Buffet Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150505/ae29e340/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] virtual power plant
On May 4, 2015, at 5:41 PM, Mark Abramowitz ma...@enviropolicy.com wrote: They won't be pro-rating the warranty? There's no mention of any proration on their Web site. It'd be a pretty bad PR move to omit a detail like that on the publicity page only to slip it in on the fine print, so I rather suspect it's not prorated. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] virtual power plant
On May 4, 2015, at 1:07 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I mean 8 Amps at around 400V is not an EV power level, it is actually rather underwhelming - I wonder why Tesla with a profile of high-power application is releasing such a low power spec. A nominal 5.8A @ 400V is comparable to a 20A load on a 110V line, in line with a typical single home circuit. You can put up to nine of them in a single unit, with up to a 30kW combined peak load. That's pretty well in line with typical household circuitry and usage. They're selling them less as whole-home backup or off-grid batteries and more as arbitrage devices. Fill the batteries at off-peak hours, drain them during on-peak hours and only feed from the grid during on-peak when the batteries are empty. I've heard payback figures bandied about in the three-year range, making them the equivalent of a 25% annual return on investment -- simply phenomenal. If true, if you've got the capital to invest in them, you'd be an idiot to not buy them. ...if true b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] virtual power plant
On May 4, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Again, the most optimal case would be that you can shift the full 10kWh each day, which would yield $2.60 per day or $950 per year. In 10 years that would give you $9,500 which is about the money you invested in a 10kW system, 10 years earlier so this would give you a zero-percent investment with risks. Not good. Actually...a ten-year payoff is about a 7% annual rate of return, which is really rather good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_72 A ten-year payoff means that you've doubled your money over the course of ten years. 70 / 10 = 7%. (That of course assumes the battery is still worth $10K at the end, and so on. I've still found the Rule of 70 to be a rather useful tool for doing this kind of financial analysis...anything with a ten-year or better payoff is almost always something you should seriously consider leaping at, if you've got the capital to spare. You'll have less money in your pocket, yes, but your expenses will be dramatically lowered giving you a lot more financial flexibility and security.) b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Enclosed human-electric hybrid spins around the UCF campus
On May 3, 2015, at 12:27 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The Human Assisted Electric Vehicle could reach speeds of up to 40 mph and has a range of about 50 miles. The entire vehicle cost about $4,000 to produce. Velomobiles are wonderful, as are electric-assist velomobiles. I'm not so sure they'll well suited for American suburbia...but there are definitely those for whom such a vehicle is perfect. The thing that surprises me, though, is that price tag. It's not that hard to spend that much on a recumbent trike, let alone add a fairing and an electric motor, and velomobiles generally start at that price and up -- potentially way up for high performance ones. Anybody know any more about this one? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150503/22e9d827/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system
On May 1, 2015, at 6:24 PM, jim via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Regarding possible life of a lead acid battery system, we are on our 3rd lead acid battery for our wind and solar home power system. Might you be willing to spare a few more details? Specifically...things like how the array is sized, especially in comparison to times of low output and high usage, how you make it through times where those two don't meet up, and so on? Do you have a generator, for example? Do have the batteries simply shut off rather than discharge to a damaging level? ...you'll likely know the questions I should ask better than I do Thanks! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150502/5a00d1b7/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system
On May 1, 2015, at 9:34 AM, via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: While Lithium batteries make a lot of sense for vehicles where energy density to weight is a big deal, I'm not sure of the advantage for stationary installations. Cost for Lithium is still a big issue. An ~40kWh pack of deep cycle, lead acid batteries that provide battery backup for my house costs ~$5k. Yes, but how long will those lead cells last? Indications are that, especially when gently used in climate-controlled settings, lithium batteries have the potential to have an usable service life similar to that of a mortgage, but lead acid batteries are notorious for going tits-up after just a few years. If you get five years from $5,000 of lead acid but fifteen years from $14,000 of lithium, the lithium is the better investment. Especially if coupled with a generator or (PH)EV that can serve as a backup for extended periods of low input and high demand, and depending on the size of the PV array, a surprising number of people could drop off the grid with 20 kWh of batteries and many could with 30 kWh. Most should be able to with 40 kWh with many not needing the genset at that point. If you're paying on the order of $15 - $20 / month for grid connection fees, it doesn't make sense to spend $10,000 or so on a battery to drop off the grid. But many utilities are trying to structure their rates such that, even if you're at or over 100% net generating capacity, you'll still cut them a check for $50 - $100 / month...and suddenly, hey-presto, that $10,000 to drop off the grid makes the same kind of financial sense that the initial solar investment did. Things are about to happen fast. Barring apocalyptic scenarios of whatever variety, most of us will live to see the day when a grid connection is as anachronistic as a landline telephone is today. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150501/327714c9/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs
On Apr 28, 2015, at 11:55 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Apr 28, 2015, at 11:43 AM, Tom Martin via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The state in turn sent you a 'Certificate' of title. The auto you bought and paid for is the property of the state. Huh? The Certificate of Title establishes *you* as owner of the car. Not the state. I think Tom might be coming from a certain Libertarian perspective that says that, if the State can confiscate or otherwise render valueless your property, especially if you stop paying taxes (rent in those circles), then it's the state that owns whatever it is. I haven't heard this applied to a vehicular title, but it's certainly a common theme with property taxes. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150429/31c7c9cd/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs
On Apr 28, 2015, at 1:56 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: This is not quite the same as the Leaf battery model cited, I guess, but it's a similar principle: make it more difficult for the independent mechanic or private owner to service the battery. It also is making the idea of buying a Leaf or other battery to power a conversion decidedly less appealing. Even if the battery you buy is stripped of all that nonsense, there's the moral question of financially supporting that sort of ecosystem while non-restrictive alternatives are available. It's looking more and more like the PHEV Mustang is going to get something like an A123 pack that I solder up myself b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150428/58d73748/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Boat
On Apr 26, 2015, at 6:06 PM, George McNeir via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: In effect, those with knowledge of the Navitas NPS600 motor controller, eCycle electric motors, super cap/battery amalgamations, advanced alkaline fuel cells, thin/flexible PV modules, internal grid power distribution DC networks and anything else that may be contemplated for such a craft is welcome. You've already got the motor and controller specced, it seems, but, if you're still in the early stages of things, you might want to get in touch with HPEVS. They've got a a brand-new line of oil-cooled versions of their motors specifically designed for marine usage. http://www.hpevs.com/oil-cooled-drive-systems.htm b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Charging-EVr PD-assaulted pushed, handcuffed, punched, pepper-sprayed +
On Apr 26, 2015, at 7:30 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Either something huge is missing from the story or we're seeing incredibly poor judgment by police officers. Alas, I fear the only thing missing is a realization that this sort of shit goes on all the time, and it's only quite rare that there's somebody with a camera there to film it. The only poor judgement the officers are going to consider themselves guilty of is not noticing the bystander with the camera. Driving While Black is outrageous enough...apparently Charging While Black needs to be added to the list. I have some small hope that the increasing ubiquity of smartphones will help keep the cops better in line...but cops are also well known for intimidating bystanders into destroying evidence that incriminates corrupt cops, if necessary by arresting the bystanders for failing to comply with a police order and then accidentally destroying the evidence themselves. There're lots of good cops on the beat, to be sure...but the system as an whole stinks to high heaven. Regardless...a sad lesson for EV drivers with a built-in suntan. You're at as much danger from the cops when you're charging as you are when you're driving; plan your charging accordingly, be aware, and protect yourself. Maybe even invest in a dsahcam of your own, and a particularly inconspicuous one at that b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150426/003de898/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Japan showcases really, really fast … whoa, WTF was that?! • The Register
I don't remember if trains fall within the limits of discussion set forth by the charter or not...but, either way, this is *way* cool news about an electric vehicle: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/04/22/japan_train/ I have no idea how practical or economical it might be for Japan or the States. I don't care. I just want to live in a world where these things connect all the major cities, with trains spaced no more than 20-30 minutes apart! And, why, yes. I _do_ want a pony, now that you mention it. How'd you guess? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150425/625fbdf9/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tesla Twitter-Acct hacked *Bogus Free-Tesla offer
Let's hope Tesla's engineers are better at securing their over-the-air updates
than their PR department is at securing their social media accounts
b
On Apr 25, 2015, at 4:18 PM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
http://mashable.com/2015/04/25/hackers-tesla-twitter-account/
Hackers briefly take over Tesla Twitter account, offer fake free car
By Adario Strange [20150425]
[images
http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE1LzA0LzI1LzdkL3RzbDkwODcxLmE3YTA1LmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/e09c4a23/633/tsl90871.jpg
tsl9087 Image: Rick Bowmer/Associated Press
http://rack.2.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE1LzA0LzI1LzlhL2RuNzAuNTI2ZTkuanBnCnAJdGh1bWIJMTIwMHg5NjAwPg/0c8a21cc/97a/dn70.jpg
dn70
]
The most talked about electric vehicle in the tech world, Tesla Motors,
suffered a hack targeting its Twitter account Saturday.
Shortly after 4:30 p.m. ET, Tesla's Twitter account was taken over by
unknown parties, with the message, This twitter is now ran by @chf060 and
@rootworx, and the Tesla name replaced by #RIPPRGANG.
However, neither account mentioned in the message has taken credit for the
hack, and the owner of the @rootworx account has posted messages denying any
connection to the incident.
The subsequent tweets to the account by the hackers included racial epithets
and even a message offering a free Tesla to anyone calling a telephone
number posted to the Twitter account.
The owner of the @rootworx account claims to have received numerous calls
about a free Tesla following the hack, along with the denial of any
connection to the cyber attack.
Subsequent messages posted to the Tesla account direct credit for the hack
to a Twitter account name matching the earlier hashtag.
The takeover lasted just under an hour and, as of this writing, Tesla
appears to have regained control of its account.
[© mashable.com]
http://www.theverge.com/2015/4/25/8497545/teslas-twitter-hacked
Hackers temporarily take control of Tesla's website, Elon Musk's ...
Earlier today, Tesla's Twitter account and website were taken over by some
... The hackers posted a phone number saying those who called it ...
...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-25/tesla-hacked-on-twitter-media-relations-e-mail-accounts
Tesla Hacked on Twitter, Media-Relations E-Mail Accounts
Tesla Motors Inc.'s Twitter feed and its media-relations e-mail account were
hacked Saturday, with the electric-car maker led by billionaire Elon Musk
becoming the latest victim of online vandals. The hacker or hackers who
compromised Tesla's Twitter feed ...
...
http://www.canadianreviewer.com/cr/2015/4/25/teslas-site-and-twitter-account-gets-hacked.html
Tesla's site and Twitter account gets hacked
April 25, 2015 Hackers seem to have gotten into both Tesla's website and
official Twitter account. Around 5PM ET, tweets showed up on its page that
suggest that the site was no longer handled by the company. It doesn't seem
like anything to grave but it was still an ...
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
{brucedp.150m.com}
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[EVDL] Can Automakers Legally Stop You From Working On Your Car?
Not specific to EVs, except insofar as they're coming of age at the same time as the automakers are trying to follow in the computer industry's footsteps. http://www.hotrod.com/news/1504-can-automakers-legally-stop-you-from-working-on-your-car/ Homebrew conversions are going to have a great deal of attraction to them for anybody who doesn't want some corporate beancounter somewhere telling them what they can and can't do with an hunk of steel they just paid good money for. My only fear is that the automakers might try to get legislation passed that requires the original manufacturer to certify any such conversion. Can you imagine having to get permission from GM to drive your newly-electrified '57 Caddy? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150425/23425220/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
On Apr 24, 2015, at 6:03 AM, Russ Sciville via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Who would wish to drive around with a hydrogen tank in the back pressurised to 10,000 psi? There's lots of insanity associated with FCVs, but fuel safety isn't part of it. Hydrogen is much safer than gasoline in that regards. Not that gasoline is especially safe, of course, but it's a well-accepted and well-managed risk, and hydrogen is a lesser risk than that. Gasoline vapors are heavier than air and tend to pool. Liquid gasoline wicks very easily into fabric. Gasoline fires stay close to the ground and in your clothes. Hydrogen is the most buoyant gas there is. An hydrogen leak is going straight up and isn't going to collect anywhere in enough volume to sustain combustion. If you started an hydrogen fire, the flames are going to shoot right up rather than spread laterally. And, unlike gasoline fires which are excellent at sustaining themselves, the slightest interruption of an hydrogen flame is going to extinguish it. Indeed, even creating a sustaining flame in the first place is going to be a bit of a challenge -- think of how careful you have to be to light a propane torch; hydrogen will be even more challenging. Pressurized tanks can be scary, yes, but, in practice, it takes either malicious intent or something spectacularly catastrophic to set off one built to automotive specs. Where hydrogen falls flat is first in terms of pollution. Hydrogen is commercially sourced from mined hydrocarbons and thus is as much of a CO2 pollutant as the coal, oil, or gas it's produced from. Because it's the lightest and most highly possibly refined form of those hydrocarbons, it next loses out on efficiency (for the same reason gasoline loses to diesel) -- especially compared with electric vehicles. It loses out in a really big way in terms of the distribution network which doesn't exist for hydrogen but does for everything else -- and which would be much more challenging and expensive and less efficient to build than anything else we've already built. And it loses out to gasoline and diesel in terms of practicality because...well, while hydrogen has far and away the greatest energy density per unit of _mass,_ it's also got the _least_ energy density per unit of _volume._ A fifteen gallon tank of hydrogen gas, under any form of compression you'd want to be anywhere n ear, contains _far_ fewer hydrogen atoms than a fifteen gallon tank of gasoline. Hydrogen is a great fuel...for rocket ships in space. Here on Earth? Forget it. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150424/390663a7/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
On Apr 23, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]his industry has put it into law that you can get credits for providing a zero-emission long range vehicle[] I think it would make the contrast between BEVs and FCVs much starker if the requirement wasn't tailpipe emissions but well-to-wheel emissions. In that case, FCVs have little hope of competing, since basically all of the hydrogen comes from mined hydrocarbons with said carbon being released into the atmosphere before the hydrogen is delivered to the vehicle. BEVs, on the other hand, can be entirely solar powered -- and many of those on the road already are. The absolute best that a FCV can possibly hope for is to use solar power to analyze water and collect the hydrogen to power the car. Seen that way, it's obvious that the fool cell is in direct competition with a battery...and, given an hour of insolation on a square meter of panels, I just don't see a FCV going anywhere near as far on the resulting charge as a BEV. Maybe somebody else has done (or knows) the math and could put some hard numbers to it? I'd be willing to eat my words. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150423/8ed3891a/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It seems like the hydrogen conversion is still likely to create CO2. How does the hydrogen cycle reduce air pollution from using methane? Exactly. I'm sure the FCV has negligible _tailpipe_ emissions compared with one that runs on CNG or LNG. But not only are both processes splitting hydrogen from carbon...I'm pretty sure you get many more miles (microns?) per hydrogen atom with CNG and LNG than you do with a fool cell. Unless the carbon from the methane is being sequestered as part of the refining process, the fool cell is an environmental disaster. But, if it _is_ being sequestered...damn, that's an awful lot more energy! And again a catastrophic disaster compared with a BEV charged with rooftop solar panels. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150423/9d9e2982/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle
On Apr 23, 2015, at 9:10 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 24 Apr 2015 at 1:08, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Eventually people will wise up to the taxes, aka subsidies, needed to support a fuel cell auto industry when they start wondering where their tax payments are going. Education will shorten that time. Watch out, that's a sharp two-edged sword. If we're not careful, it'll swing the other way, and cut off BEV subsidies too. Any time anybody complains about subsidies going to electric vehicle manufacturers I just have to roll my eyes and ask about the auto industry bailout. Same thing with solar energy and our military expenditures to ensure compliant regimes in oil-producing lands -- not to mention corporate welfare in general. You want a level playing field? Look at what gasoline costs in Europe. How well do you think Detroit could compete with EVs if cheap gasoline was $8 / gallon? ...sorry, preaching to the choir, I know b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150423/fe3123e3/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it
On Apr 23, 2015, at 3:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: You should also watch Toyota’s new video which says the car can run on Elon Musk’s “bull$$it ”comments and show how they can take cow manure, and process it to hydrogen.. all they have to do is add “steam and heat”. I made as far as when he got to the refinery and said that they collect methane and then do shit to it. Um...why not just use that methane as is? I mean, we already do -- every vehicle with a CNG or LNG sticker on it is burning methane. Anything further they do to the methane, by definition, will result in a loss of system efficiency. At some point, the hydrocarbons are going to have to get oxidized. Your best bet is to do that with the minimum amount of prior processing and in the most efficient oxidizer you can get. In this case, that would mean using the methane to power a utility-scale turbine and charging the grid and EVs with the resulting electricity. A close second would be using it for hybrid ICE / electric rail locomotives. It _might_ be the case that burning the methane in a gasoline-style vehicle engine is more efficient than the electric generation to EV route...but more likely not. What's guaranteed is that converting the methane to H2, compressing it, and using it to generate electricity in a small fuel cell to power an electric motor...is going to be horribly inefficient. For it to make sense at all, there's going to have to be something inherently superior about the fuel cell engine as opposed to a comparable four-stroke methane-powered ICE such that you'd choose the fuel cell on its merits alone...and I'm hard pressed to think of anything overwhelming. I'm sure there're niche situations where fuel cells make all kinds of sense, but that niche isn't to be found on the highways of the developed world. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150423/6f187b5f/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cmax solar concept.
On Apr 21, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Jay Summet via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I don't think any of the above are deal breakers, especially if the car can automatically roll down it's windows while charging under full sun. Yes, you're right. Those aren't the deal breaker. The deal breaker is that you need a specialized carport in the first place. It'd be far more efficient, cheaper, safer, and everything else to just put regular panels at their optimal orientation on the carport (or wherever) and forget about having your car emulate a giant ant in the spotlight of a magnifying glass. If anything, this concept is a perfect illustration of the utter impracticability of self-contained solar vehicles as anything other than engineering challenges. And, also, of the sheer brilliance of fixed rooftop solar power generation. We don't expect gasoline-powered cars to carry their own drilling rigs and refineries, do we? b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] ~43% Of World's Electric Cars Bought In 2014 | CleanTechnica
I do believe this is what a tipping point looks like: http://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/19/43-of-worlds-electric-cars-bought-in-2014/ b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150420/11476e5a/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-X Spied w/ a Tow Hitch AWD r:225mi (v)
On Apr 14, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It is likely the Tesla cars can pull it just fine, but will probably overheat towing, especially on hills. Towing packages for trucks have all manner of extra cooling gear, for transmission, oil coolers, oversize radiators, and so on. It is a simple application that is difficult in practice. I'd like to think that Tesla isn't stupid enough to sell an SUV with a trailer hitch and insane power and torque...and inadequate cooling. Their engineers have gotten everything else right; I just can't see them overlooking something that basic. I'll go out on a limb: if it comes from the factory with a trailer hitch, you can tow impossibly heavy loads all day long until the battery runs out -- which will take much less than all day with such a load, granted. If they don't put the hitch on at the factory, you'd best keep your eyes glued to the temperature gauge if you tow anything heavier than your red Radio Flyer, though people will still be impressed with how much they can get away with. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150414/772a3227/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] EVLN: Tesla-S 85kWh evfleetworld Road Test
No doubt the Tesla is an impressive car, but your first two points aren't all that impressive... On Apr 14, 2015, at 6:49 AM, Mike Nickerson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: - Driving in the dark, the headlights are very impressive. Go around a corner and the car lights up around the corner. My parents's '89 Lincoln Town Car does this. Flick the turn signal lever and an extra quasi-headlight lights up on that side. It also automatically turns the high beams on and off depending on oncoming traffic. - Turn on the wipers and they automatically adjust speed. Light mist, slow wipers. Heavy downpour, fast wipers. My parents's Town Car doesn't do that, but I remember driving a cheap rental in the '90s that did. I also remember it not adjusting the speed as well as I would have if I devoted my full attention to it; I imagine Tesla has it working better. But congratulations on the purchase, and do enjoy the car! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150414/e1049ec0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-X Spied w/ a Tow Hitch AWD r:225mi (v)
On Apr 14, 2015, at 5:40 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: In any case, don’t get your hopes up too high on a truly versatile towing capacity because electric power isn’t similar to a traditional engine’s twist. Huh? Range questions aside, an electric vehicle with ~700 HP / ft-lbs should absolutely stomp all over anything else on the market. And with all of that torque there from a standing stop...I can't imagine how gas could possibly be any more versatile than that. Hell, this thing should be able to tow the broken-down tow truck with the broken-down still-full pickup truck still on the flatbed. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150414/629411cf/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
On Apr 8, 2015, at 6:36 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Nothing in his lab's list of peer-reviewed publications on this topic: http://dailab.stanford.edu/pubs.htm My friend was able to get me a copy of the Nature article. The short version...is that I won't be replicating their work at home. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be possible to make at home a battery that's not as good as what they made but still better than today's commercial batteries. I wouldn't bet more than a single beverage on that. My back-of-the-envelope guesstimate from the abstract yesterday suggested a C value of ~60. I wasn't far off: Remarkably, the Al/graphitic-foam cell (in a pouch cell configuration) could be charged and discharged at a current density up to 5,000 mA g21, about 75 times higher (that is, at a 75 C rate, ,1 min charge/discharge time) than the Al/PG cell while maintaining a similar voltage profile and discharge capacity (,60 mA h g21) (Figs 1b and 2b). Another interesting tidbit: It was also found that this cell could be rapidly charged (at 5,000 mA g21, in ,1 min) and gradually discharged (down to 100 mA g21, Fig. 2d and Extended Data Fig. 9b) over ,34 min while maintaining a high capacity (,60 mA h g21). The graphite foam was grown on a nickel foam scaffold. Making the electrolyte requires a vacuum oven and an argon-filled glove box. But, once you've got those ingredients (and some other stuff), all that's left: Pouch cells were assembled in the glove box using a graphitic-foam (,3 mg) cathode and an Al foil (,70 mg) anode, which were separated by two layers of glass fibre filter paper to prevent shorting. Polymer (0.1 mm 3 4 mm 3 5 mm) coated Ni foils (0.09 mm 3 3 mm 3 60 mm in size; MTI corporation) were used as current collectors for both anode and cathode. The electrolyte (,2 ml prepared using AlCl3/[EMIm]Cl 5 1.3 by mole) was injected and the cell was closed using a heat sealer. My hope is that a less sophisticated carbon foam might suffice...which still leaves the question of the electrolyte. No clue on that front. The concluding paragraph explains where the confusion over the various density figures came from: We have developed a new Al-ion battery using novel graphitic cathode materials with a stable cycling life up to 7,500 charge/discharge cycles without decay at ultrahigh current densities. The present Al/graphite battery can afford an energy density of ,40 W h kg–1 (comparable to lead–acid and Ni–MH batteries, with room for improvement by opti- mizing the graphitic electrodes and by developing other novel cathode materials) and a high power density, up to 3,000 W kg–1 (similar to super- capacitors). We note that the energy/power densities were calculated on the basis of the measured ,65 mA h g–1 cathode capacity and the mass of active materials in electrodes and electrolyte. Such recharge- able Al ion batteries have the potential to be cost effective and safe, and to have high power density. So, this would seem to be of most interest to the racing crowd and of less interest to for general automotive use, at least in this initial iteration. Mobile devices will probably hugely benefit, especially power tools. ...assuming, of course, that manufacturing isn't a problem, and all the rest of those sorts of gotchas b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial
On Apr 7, 2015, at 1:05 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The Michelin radial 95/80 r16 radial is the tire used by solar racing teams. Anyone know where to get them? I'd first directly contact one of the teams that you know used said tire and ask them where they got theirs. Next, Michelin should have a customer service number where they can tell you which dealers typically stock them. But, if those both turn out to be dead ends, any national tire chain should have no trouble ordering pretty much any tire for you. They're not necessarily going to be the absolute cheapest source, but chances are good that any premium you might pay is going to be both minimal compared with other sources and well in line with how much time you'd personally have to spend chasing down any source, let alone a cheaper one. I've had lots of great luck with Discount Tire over the years such that they're the only ones I go to for anything. Their warranty service is superlative. They'll also get you wheels to fit the tires b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford offers safe alternative to conventional batteries
Does anybody know any more about this research? http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html Aluminum anode; graphite cathode. Unspecified salt for the electrolyte. It's only about two volts. The rest of the specs are vague...nothing at all about capacity. They claim super-fast charging times without indicating how much energy the batteries actually take on. They claim several thousand charge cycles. No mention of energy density per mass. The prototype is bendable, in what looks for all the world like a mylar ziploc bag. They show the battery being drilled into with minimal ill effect. I find it intriguing to consider for an electric vehicle...because a super-fast charging time, if real, would similarly imply a super-fast discharge rate. It gives the appearance of being technology within the reach of an hobbyist to manufacture. Form factor is obviously quite literally flexible. In other words...I can almost imagine building a battery like this, myself, at home, to put into a car conversion. Or, if it's too heavy for vehicles, then to stick in the closet to pair with the solar PV array. Any experts out there have any good water to throw over me? b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
Indeed...I just checked the abstract and it cites 70 mAh/g. It's an unfair comparison because of all the extra hardware from the box and what-not, but a CALB 180 Ah battery weighs 5.6 kg, which works out to 32 mAh/g. That they're in the same order of magnitude tells me this may well be competitive...if it's not snake oil b On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Peter Gabrielsson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: You may be confusing power and energy On Apr 7, 2015 2:59 PM, Bill Dennis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Their current version of the battery has only 40 watts of electricity per kilogram compared to lithium's 100 to 206 W/kg power density--so you'd need more of them to get the same power. That might get better as they improve the cells, of course. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: the electrolyte is not specified other than the phrase intercalation of chloroaluminate anions in the graphite I see that in the abstract...is that what you're referring to, or do you have the full article? I've asked a friend with a subscription to send me a copy of the full article. I'm hoping to find enough details in there for at least somebody who's in the industry to be able to reverse-engineer it...and, from there, that I'll be able to get up to speed on that part of the industry to figure out if _I_ could perhaps reverse-engineer it... b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Your needs may differ but, for me, unequivocally the charge time is more important. I'm not discounting the importance of charge time. It's just my understanding that the batteries today aren't the limiting factor in charging. Actually getting the current out of the wall without melting the wires and setting the house (or the charger or whatever) on fire. It makes sense, too. Figure a car is going to need at least in the range of ~50HP / 50 kW to have not absolutely pathetically anemic performance. If you've got a 50A circuit, you still need a kilovolt. If you've got a 250V outlet, you still need a 200A circuit. Either way, you're looking at something comparable to the main feed at the meter from the utility, just to keep up with the car's power potential. And, no, you're not typically driving full-throttle...but you're still drawing an awful lot of current on the freeway. If you want to charge as fast as you draw...you're going to need something that significantly outpaces the main line to your house. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
On Apr 7, 2015, at 4:25 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Time will tell if we soon will have a 1-minute rechargeable battery ...and a 1-minute *dischargeable* battery. That's probably an even bigger deal than the charge time. Right now, charging times seem to be limited on all sorts of things other than battery chemistry -- at least, in the automotive world. I suppose cell phones may well be limited by chemistry. From what I can tell, typical batteries in today's EVs have discharge rates in the single-digit C values, which limits their power output to about the same as their ICE equivalents. But this is an order of magnitude more than that, and twice what even A123 offers. If these're price-competitive with today's batteries -- and, of course, if all these numbers actually hold up -- then we're looking at econoboxes with batteries that would make Weyland and Garlits and the rest drool. Of course, the econoboxes wouldn't get the motors and controllers that could keep up with the batteries...but...well, for example, a battery like this might well be able to replace mechanical brakes by actually being able to absorb all the energy from an hard stop with regen. That would eliminate yet another component and its weight and complexity. I'm sure all sorts of other possibilities present themselves if these power numbers are real. Like...mechanical recharging. Pull into the gas station with the wheels on a dyno. (Or, more realistically, something that coupled to the wheels / drivetrain without relying on the friction of rubber.) Line current (or battery banks or whatever) power the dyno; the car turns on full regen. If the car *did* have a dragster-capable motor / controller / whatever, you could thereby pump that megawatt into the batteries and, in three minutes, put 50 kWh into them. Yes, there'd be efficiency losses...but electricity is dirt cheap compared with gasoline, so people likely wouldn't care. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford
I've no clue. I'm assuming they're making it using some sort of chemical reaction, presumably one not entirely unlike those ones chemistry teachers love to demonstrate with the carbon snakes boiling out of the beakers when they mix two colorless liquids. ...I think I'm going to see if the researchers answer their emails b On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:54 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: BTW, Are you capable of making three-dimensional graphitic-foam? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:53 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford I do not have a Nature subscription but I looked at the abstract again and noticed the pictures underneath. Click on the first one, it shows the chemical formulas for the operation of the cell Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: Ben Goren [mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 3:48 PM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum battery from Stanford On Apr 7, 2015, at 3:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: the electrolyte is not specified other than the phrase intercalation of chloroaluminate anions in the graphite I see that in the abstract...is that what you're referring to, or do you have the full article? I've asked a friend with a subscription to send me a copy of the full article. I'm hoping to find enough details in there for at least somebody who's in the industry to be able to reverse-engineer it...and, from there, that I'll be able to get up to speed on that part of the industry to figure out if _I_ could perhaps reverse-engineer it... b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Bosch uses UX approach to spark enthusiasm for electric driving - Putting people first
I really don't think I like the idea of where they're headed: http://www.experientia.com/blog/bosch-uses-ux-approach-to-help-spark-enthusiasm-for-electric-driving/ One thing I think we can all agree upon here: if the hunch mode http://www.bosch.com/boschglobal/userexperience/the-smart-way-to-get-around-town.php winds up in a vehicle, it should only be enabled for fully-autonomous vehicles with the robot mode engaged. It also points to the real reason y'all should be objecting to self-driving cars. Imagine if Google implemented something like that...the car ride would be one giant non-stop sales pitch trying to get you to pull off to whichever roadside attraction had written the biggest check to Google that hour. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150407/2c431de5/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
On Apr 6, 2015, at 11:09 AM, Electric Blue auto convertions via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The day Im forced to get into a self driving car is when I take my shot gun and blow it away . the very thought if a SDC makes me vomit Even a robotic taxi? For example, in a city you've flown to? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150406/f9ab3d6e/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
On Apr 6, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Maybe these same people would accept some sort of artificial intelligence program which would analyse their facebook postingsand social media and automatically vote for them in elections. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but there's a world of difference between electoral politics and transportation. Do you think people who take taxis or use public transit don't have any interest in voting? If you're taking a taxi or a bus, why would you care if the driver is human or robotic? Would you be okay having a chauffeur drive you in your own car? If so, would you care if the chauffeur is human or robotic? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150406/d07967b1/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
On Apr 6, 2015, at 5:08 PM, Chris Tromley via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: And there is no AI system sufficiently advanced to make the right decision in every case. Your objections are a classic example of making the perfect the enemy of the good. In order to improve traffic safety, self-driving cars don't have to be perfect; they only have to be better than the average human. And they're already there, especially when you consider that the average human is too-often tired, distracted, drunk, or whatever. Even if everybody in the car is drunk, asleep, texting, legally blind, under the age of ten, or all of the above...the car is still going to drive itself more safely than most humans will when taking the driving test from the DMV. Again, it won't be perfect. It'll just be far, far superior to humans. As to who'll pay when self-driving cars crash...I'm sure it'll be the insurance companies. They'll be quite thrilled with them, as they'll be able to give significant discounts on insurance plans and simultaneously make insane profits because the'll be paying out far less with self-driving cars than with humans. That is, their expenses will drop to a negligible fraction of what they are today even as their income drops not even as much as the advertising lingo of up to 15%! In math...today you might pay them $100 / period and cost them, on average over all drivers, $50. You get a self-driving car, and you now pay them $85...but now you only cost them $5 at most. They've more than doubled their profits. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150406/9c5592bb/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
On Apr 6, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Chris Tromley via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I more or less agree with what you're saying - as long as there is still a choice. To be clear: I am most emphatically _*NOT*_ suggesting that all vehicles, or even all new vehicles be roboticized. I'm just suggesting that there're an awful lot of people who do or should want robot cars and that everybody on the road will benefit from such automation. And if you think that there's really a chance that non-robotic cars will be banned...well, just look at guns for comparison. That industry is a tiny pittance compared to the automotive industry, and _far_ more people drive and own cars than own guns. Whatever your stand on gun rights...it should be obvious that any attempts to ban non-robotic cars would fail far more spectacularly than recent attempts to ban guns. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150406/ed290892/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] The Tesla Factor: Elon Musk Will Force Auto Industry To Roll Out Self-Driving Cars Sooner Than You Think - Forbes
On Apr 6, 2015, at 8:10 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Don't know if this is the actual case, but I think it would be easy for the management at Tesla to develop group think, forgetting that most U.S. citizens don't live in silicon valley and work in high tech, and overestimating the appeal and acceptance of such features as self-driving as a result. I think the overwhelming majority -- near unanimity, in fact -- would absolutely love a self-driving car. Even those who enjoy driving...there're still be times they'll want / need to take a phone call, be too tired / drunk to safely drive, and so on. Most commuters would, I'm sure, rather watch TV or get caught up on email or post something on MyFaceTwit or whatever than have to make life-or-death decisions about how to maneuver a two-ton hunk of metal and glass and plastic with themselves caged within. Will they trust current technology? Could they afford current technology? Those're different questions. But the desire most emphatically exists. Just look at all the idiots on the road shaving or putting on makeup or texting or yakking on the phone...each and every one of those would much rather _not_ be driving. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150406/8b21ddc3/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] The Tesla Factor: Elon Musk Will Force Auto Industry To Roll Out Self-Driving Cars Sooner Than You Think - Forbes
Food for thought: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyanwyl/2015/04/02/evidence-of-forces-behind-the-tesla-factor-at-this-weeks-new-york-auto-show/?ss=tech I tend to think he's right. I also think that the first long-haul trucking company to adopt self-driving rigs will thereby become the dominant force in that industry. Sure feels like we're at the cusp of a phase change, when all sorts of little things add up in a big and surprising way. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150405/113f96a8/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Renters hit roadblocks to get EVSE installed, help from eVgo
On Apr 5, 2015, at 3:40 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Renters have a hard time finding electric charging stations in their apartment buildings. In a way, these sorts of growing pains are a good sign. It means that EV adoption is penetrating to the point that it's not just a few crazy nutjobs kludging together frankencars out of spare parts, but rather that regular people are buying and driving regular cars that just happen to be electric, _and_ they're doing them in numbers that are presenting logistical challenges that nobody has put much thought into before. Once upon a time indoor plumbing was a luxury; today, it's inconceivable to have a dwelling without it. Same thing with electric lighting, then standardized wall outlets for appliances, telephone, and so on. And, just as no apartment complex today could survive without cable / satellite / whatever TV hookups in every apartment, it won't be all that long before it's a given that every parking stall in those complexes has a plug. For that matter, adoption patterns will likely follow those of cable TV. Upscale ones will leap on it as an incentive to entice and retain tenants (for a suitable but surprisingly low fee, of course, that might or might not get folded into the rent). Midrange complexes with pretensions of being upscale will be next. Eventually, economy complexes will do it just so they don't get compared with slums. ...but, of course, that's cold comfort to the early EV adopters themselves who want to plug in at home but can't get their stupid landlord to let them. Sucks that they're going to have to move to find a landlord with a clue...but said landlord is going to be quite happy to welcome the new tenants, and the old landlord is going to have to fill that vacancy b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150405/2c720cdc/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] article: World’s first 1 megawatt all-electric race car to compete at Pikes Peak
Sorry -- I was referring to them seem to really be building a real race car, not attempting to verify their claims to bragging rights. The megawatt bit, honestly, didn't even register b On Apr 2, 2015, at 6:15 PM, Ben Apollonio via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Really? I was pretty sure the title of first megawatt all-electric race car went to the Maniac Mazda over a decade ago... -Ben On Apr 1, 2015, at 9:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Seems reasonably legit. Nothing about it seems unreasonable. http://driveeo.com/blog/racing/eo-pp03-one-megawatt-electric-race-car/ The pp03 refers to Pike's Peak #3, and they ran it last year and the year before: http://driveeo.com/pikes-peak/pp02/ http://driveeo.com/pikes-peak/pp01/ b On Apr 1, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Paul Wujek via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It's April 1, so maybe this is true: http://www.electricautosport.com/2015/04/worlds-first-1-megawatt-all-electric-race-car-to-compete-at-pikes-peak/ -- *Paul Wujek* p...@rogers.com about http://goo.gl/3jnMdX ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/8224f214/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150402/9243b3af/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] article: World’s first 1 megawatt all-electric race car to compete at Pikes Peak
Seems reasonably legit. Nothing about it seems unreasonable. http://driveeo.com/blog/racing/eo-pp03-one-megawatt-electric-race-car/ The pp03 refers to Pike's Peak #3, and they ran it last year and the year before: http://driveeo.com/pikes-peak/pp02/ http://driveeo.com/pikes-peak/pp01/ b On Apr 1, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Paul Wujek via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It's April 1, so maybe this is true: http://www.electricautosport.com/2015/04/worlds-first-1-megawatt-all-electric-race-car-to-compete-at-pikes-peak/ -- *Paul Wujek* p...@rogers.com about http://goo.gl/3jnMdX ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/8224f214/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine to be worth the effort. Wind and hydro are just diluted forms of solar. On a planetary scale, they can't even begin to compete with solar photovoltaics. However, there are certain microclimates where the landscape concentrates either wind or hydro in such a way that either can be a superlative local source of energy -- especially if the Sun tends to hide in those same climates. Both are, ultimately, niche players...but they can be potentially indispensable in their relative niches. Again however...the hydro niches are long since already developed, and the wind niches are mostly certain coastal regions and high mountain passes. Another interesting potential good use of wind is cropland...a single individual turbine won't necessarily have impressive generating capacities, but really big numbers of them can be put in in a way that doesn't interfere with growing crops and, in so doing, significantly increase the economic productivity of the land for the farmers. Residential wind power makes sense for a few people, but only a very few people. (And it really does make all kinds of sense for certain people...just not for most.) Rooftop solar, on the other hand, is economically viable basically everywhere, including the Pacific Northwest. It's more profitable in some places than others, but it's profitable everywhere (with a few footnotes, of course). b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate for electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than from building out new traditional power plants. Your analysis passes the sniff test for me from previous experience...but, in a similar vein, the _real_ competition is from rooftop solar and batteries of the type we're being told will be in the Chevy B-as-in-what-a-clueless-marketing-department Bolt and that Tesla is strongly hinting at will soon be coming from their Gigafactory. With that, the grid ostensibly gets the leveling effect the power companies want...but at the cost of losing a customer who now no longer has any need for the grid at all. My own utility, Salt River Project, just shot itself in the foot that way. People like me with existing solar installations are grandfathered for at least a couple decades -- but not if we sell the house. Everybody else...will be paying almost as much as they'd be paying without solar thanks to their new rate structure. They missed the boat. They've bought a brief window of time between now and the time of cheap batteries. They _could_ have embraced the change and become the leading installer (and maintainer and financier!) of rooftop solar as well as home batteries (sell it for the benefits of the homeowner, profit from a claim on so much power it stores at the utility's whim). Instead, they've signed their own corporate suicide pact. Once batteries *do* get cheap -- and they will very soon -- for those with capital to invest it'll be cheaper to drop off the grid entirely rather than stay connected. For new construction, solar with a battery is already cheaper than grid connect fees. And, every customer they so lose...well, the money they used to be getting from that customer now has to get spread across the remaining customers, with their rates exponentially increasing as it becomes more and more profitable for more and more people to drop off the grid. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben, if you can install enough batteries, as I believe you have, to go completely off the grid, then of course there's no advantage to the power company. I don't have batteries yet and no plans to install them until the finances tip sufficiently...considering I'm grandfathered with respect to SRP's new exorbitant solar-killing rate plan, that'll be some years. But, for most people, batteries in general can provide leveling to the power company but not sustained power. This is indeed the use case I believe Tesla has in mind for their initial markets. Buy their batteries even if you don't have onsite generation; fill the batteries off peak when electricity is cheap and drain them on peak when electricity is expensive. Depending on how the math works out, you could see the capital expense repaid in short order with pure profits afterwards. And it'll dramatically increase the market for such batteries, driving down prices and all the rest. Where you live, Ben, you don't need to worry about a string of 10 cloudy dark days where solar PVs will be next to worthless. Many places as dire as you describe also have provisions for home heating oil or natural gas other energy inputs that could trivially be adapted to power a generator for a while. And, until batteries get big and cheap enough, it'll likely make sense even here in Arizona to have a small generator to tide over a couple days of winter weather now and again. As a bonus...such a generator really can be minimal. It doesn't need to meet peak demands, but only average demands and let the batteries handle the peaks. My claim is the power companies stand to make more profit if they build pumped storage instead of coal or nukes. I strongly suspect you're right. But *my* claim is that at least some individuals (and companies like SolarCity) already today stand to make more profit with rooftop solar and batteries than with anything the utilities can offer, and that the number of such individuals will climb rapidly as battery prices fall until, eventually, nobody's left who wants to by _any_ power the utility might want to sell -- pumped storage or no. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Micro-hydro remains the most economical, trouble-free way for anyone with a stream and 100+ feet of head to obtain electric power. Granted, only a small minority meet those specifications, but I would submit that most of those are undeveloped. I wouldn't challenge you on that. I'd just suggest that that's about as niche as niche gets b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the expected PV efficiency, then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day *and* be an extreme car to achieve any speed or range. ...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels matters a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light receives the maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light receives zero energy. You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with the light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically positioned for an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an object and space is at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to follow the Sun. For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for aerodynamics. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short drives) and can be parked in full sun (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can gain charge over time, about 5 hours (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh harvested each day. ...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and about, and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other things as well, and so on. The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. (Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful general-purpose vehicles). ...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still better off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple days while you recharge for the next few hours of driving. Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either. You know...there's another way to look at it. All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. Animals eat the plants. Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and low power objects compared to high-speed vehicles. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well, it might make sense for the special-case commute where your pack isn't large enough to make a round trip but, with solar panels charging during the day, you top off enough to get home. ...and then, when it's cloudy...you're stuck at work. Or you only drive the vehicle when the forecaster says there'll be enough sun for you to be able to get home and hope there aren't any freak storms that develop. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I am sure that he won't start until things are clearer for him and he is getting our input for just that - advice in which direction to go. Well...in that case, my advice would be an awful lot of budgeting -- energy, weight, money, time, and everything else. Start with the Stella as an assumption of a best-case scenario. You should be able to find or guess all the important facts. How much does it weigh? How much would it cost to build an one-off carbon fiber structure of that weight? If you haven't built anything with carbon fiber, call up a shop that specializes in it and ask them for a ballpark figure of what they'd charge you and run with that number. Yes, you'd be able to do it cheaper...but only assuming you do it perfect the first time, so run with their number. The surface area of the panels should be known. Use that figure to spec out the highest-output lightest-weight moldable panels you can find...and don't be surprised when _that_ cost is close to if not more than what your mortgage statement reads. You've got weight and energy in; from there, you can calculate power requirements and how close the panels come to meeting them. For the generation, take the standard figures for rooftop solar, make sure that the installation angle of the calculator you use is horizontal, and knock off at least another 10% due to even worse geometry and the like. At this point, you're already looking at a project that costs six figures easily and likely, even on paper, doesn't go as fast nor as far as you want it to. So, if you want to keep pursuing the project, work on those bits. Once you've got that much solved, then you're ready to start moving on to more mundane things like motors and batteries and the like. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 3:06 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: But overall, the amount of power you can get from the sun in a normal-sized is very limited. That pretty much forces you to concentrate on vehicle efficiency. Extremely light, with exceptionally good aerodynamics and very high efficiency components (tires, motor, controller, etc. At least, that's how the solar cars have all done it. Exactly...and that means cutting edge high tech stuff that takes lots of money and years of education and experience and, realistically, a sizable team of top-notch people to pull off. Not a single guy who's asking the kinds of questions Lawrence is. For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for aerodynamics. It works well for airplane wing, though. :-) Yes...well...um...my point, exactly...? An airplane wing without an airplane is a pretty good description of a crash investigation scene b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I am able to reduce my foot print and I chose to do that using an EV and buying green electricity... That's why, when I put a bunch of panels on my roof some years back, I intentionally oversized it so I could power an EV and still not need net energy. Still working on the EV solution (though it's closer every day), but my (substantial) net surplus almost makes up for the carbon emissions from the miles I drive. ...in that sense, you can _almost_ suggest that my '68 VW Westfalia with its 1600cc gasoline engine is solar powered, but I wouldn't actually go that far b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:49 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I say more power (sorry ;-) to Lawrence and wish him the best. I wish I lived nearby, so I could watch and cheer him on. There's a big part of me that wants to wish him the best with the project...but there's an even bigger part that's screaming at me that he's in way over his head and has no clue what he's getting himself into. Things like what appear to be ignorance of basic automotive engineering concepts (like a differential) and aerodynamics (his idea of using lift to make the car seem lighter) and power (not understanding how much energy a vehicle needs) and optics (his idea of lining the seat headrests with panels) and more. I'm sorry, but this whole thing just has fail plastered all over it, and I'd love to see him put his enthusiasm towards something he's not guaranteed to fail at. Lawrence? May I suggest? Ditch this project. Put it out of your mind. If you ever get to the point that you have what it takes to see it through, you'll know it because you'll have all the details already worked out in your head. Instead...work on building yourself a practical electric vehicle, not solar, but a direct replacement for your current vehicle or one you wish you had. And not something with the thought that you might make it solar later, either...just a garden-variety conversion of a regular car. A VW Bug would be a great candidate, and a Karmann Ghia even better. Once you've made yourself a normal electric vehicle, _then_ you can start to think about what you might want to do in the next one...and, also, by then, chances are superlative that you'll realize just how impractical this solar project really is. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 27, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Roland via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The maximum battery running temperature was 68 degrees F Just to be clear...you're reporting the weather, right? You're telling us that, during the time you used the car that you're telling us about, the battery never heated above 68°F, and *not* that Nissan has specified that thou shalt not let the batteries heat to over 68°F? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150328/aa67e08c/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric Bigfoot #20 @2015 VIAS.ca
On Mar 27, 2015, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Zero-emission monster truck can stomp with the best of the them I've never gotten the monster truck thing...but is is good for EVs in general. Anything that get somebody afflicted with testosterone poisoning to end an article with: This is the real deal. Electric. Powerful. Very Wicked. Guaranteed to give you even more thrills than the “other” now, old fashioned monster trucks. I’ve been converted. Besides, I’ve always liked the quiet powerful types. is good for EVs. Get those with testosterone and passion for all things vehicular to see electric as the must-have feature for the ultimate in power and bad-assery...and you've just created the perfect wave of...well, not exactly early adopters, but leading enthusiasts. Y'all know all those puffy vehicles that're somehow supposed to convey manliness while looking like the archetypal grossly obese Walmart shopper? I bet some oversized batteries and motors would make them even manlier. Just like they did to this Bigfoot #20. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150327/e801ff9d/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: That works for me, and it pretty much sums up what LEAF V1.5 (2013-2015) displays right now. Good to know that it's a feature of one of the first-tier electric vehicles on the market. Gives one hope that it'll be a standard long into the future -- and, hopefully, one that gets refined with future generations. After all, it's not uncommon to have gas gauges on ICE vehicles that behave less than ideally linearly due to tank shape or voltage regulation or whatever, but I don't know that it's been a big priority for manufacturers to improve gas gauges over the years. But an EV should have far more than enough computational oomph to do whatever is needed to properly refine a measurement of remaining kWh. If experience shows that the estimate is too optimistic over the bottom quarter of the display range, it's not _that_ hard to initially add a fudge factor to the software...and, eventually, some smart analytics to truly nail it. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150326/b5e160c5/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 26, 2015, at 9:22 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It's interesting to note how gas gauges are set up, psychologically. Here's one explanation: http://theappslab.com/2010/12/21/how-does-your-gas-gauge-really-work/ Somehow...I'm not surprised. The newest car I own is a 1968 VW Westfalia, so it's not a phenomenon I'm personally familiar with. But I'm still not surprised. I'm thinking that, between the fuel sensors in modern fuel injection systems and the power meters in electric motor controllers, it should be trivially to do some mutual calibration between the relevant systems. If you know you've shoved five gallons of fuel through the injectors between the time the float rheostat read this voltage and that voltage...you know that the one voltage represents five gallons less than the other. Similarly, if you know the motor's been drawing 8 kW for the past fifteen minutes, you know you've used up 2 kWh -- and the starting pack voltage represents two more kilowatt-hours of capacity than the ending pack voltage. With the chance to re-refine the estimates every time you drive the car. Really shouldn't be rocket science b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150326/da4408c4/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 26, 2015, at 7:23 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The car or some big computer can't read you mind, so if it is going to make an informed, accurate estimate - you are going to have to tell it what your destination is. You want accuracy, you have to tell it what is going to happen. I can't imagine there is another way. That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge, For a century or so drivers have done just fine with a remaining (usable) gallons of fuel gauge and a basic idea of how far they can make it on a gallon of fuel based on current conditions. This whole voltage-based thing is irrelevant. What people want to know is how much energy is left, in whatever form, and they're fine translating that to distance with precision enough for typical driving. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150326/18ef3a82/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 25, 2015, at 12:47 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So maybe my analogy above is wrong. EVs vs ICEVs is more like satellite or digital radio vs traditional FM broadcast: they're better, all right, but they solve a problem that most users / buyers just don't care that much about. I'm a big EV fan, but I'm also realistic about how much of the market they're going to own in the short term. Until the gas pumps finally run dry, I'm afraid EVs will remain a (small) minority. Better get yours while you can. That's why I keep banging the pony car drum. You can build an EV that outperforms a supercar for the price of a family sedan. Once the manufacturers start selling pony car EVs that outperform their electric brethren, EVs will be seen as the gotta-have high performance model and ICE as yesterday's slow old-n-busted news that only losers are stuck with. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 25, 2015, at 2:00 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: When it comes to estimating remaining range, the problem gets even more difficult. I think that's where the real problems come in -- and they're the exact same problems for any other vehicle. Are the miles you're planning on driving from Sedona to Flagstaff (all uphill) or the other way 'round? Are the miles you're planning on driving cruising at a constant and sedate 45 MPH or are they all going to be on the drag strip? Are the miles you're planning on driving with an empty load, or are you about to hook up a trailer with a 500 gallon tank full of water? Personally, I'd be happy with a gauge that measured usable kWh capacity, with the actual numbers labeled. If the car leaves the factory with 50 kWh useable, the dial goes from zero to fifty. If you've used the car hard for a few years and you only get 30 kWh usable out of the pack, the dial still goes from zero to fifty but the needle never points past thirty. Couple that with a real-time display that shows you power output in kWh / mile, and most people will be able to intuitively answer any question they might think of. It's also a direct parallel with what people are already familiar with in ICE cars: a tank that is effectively calibrated in gallons (even if it's not labeled that way) and, in many cars, an instant MPG reading. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] How to build a very efficient EV for road use with solar panels.
On Mar 24, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'd like to run two mid sized motors. One on each rear wheel. That's a very ambitious design. You need a controller that can coordinate the power for each wheel to ensure the exact same amount of power on straight-and-level pavement, which is enough of a challenge...and then the controller needs to serve as a differential to vary the power and speed depending on direction of travel, side loading from aerodynamics, slick patches on the pavement on only one side, and so on. Failure to do so can very easily result in a rather unstable vehicle prone to crashing. And that's the sort of design whose computer programming would take a team of Tesla engineers a fair amount of time to come up with from scratch. Much easier would be a single motor (or a pair of siamese motors if that's what gets you the power you need) connected to a traditional mechanical differential, with the axles connected to the differential. I'm sure there've got to be low-weight open differentials readily available that would be just fine for such an application. I want to build a skeleton and use cut plastic or Kevlar as body panels. Kevlar? Seems an unusual choice of materials. Is this supposed to be a bulletproof Popemobile in addition to everything else? If you're looking for something lightweight that's easy to shape, start with fiberglass for your prototypes and then carbon fiber when you know what you're doing. If, on the other hand, you're planning on building this with flat panels...scratch your plans and start all over. The aerodynamics will eat you alive. Flat panels might be okay for a prototype for the chassis and drivetrain design, but you're going to need some serious aerodynamic engineering chops to get something in the power consumption range you're talking about. The design is going to have to resemble something from Burt Rutan far more than anything that's ever come out of Detroit. And...skeleton and panels implies a frame design, which implies a lot of weight. You'll be much more successful with a monocoque design in which the body iis/i the frame. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150324/097d99ab/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in some provinces
On Mar 24, 2015, at 3:36 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So which is better? 90% efficient for EVs versus 20% efficient for ICE. ...and that assumes that EVs are forever stuck with getting their electricity from coal-fired plants. I'd bet a suitable beverage that coal represents the minority of electricity going into EVs today, due in no small part to the early adopters being overwhelmingly likely to have solar panels on their rooftops. That is, a great many EVs on the road right now really are solar-powered cars with truly zero CO2 emissions. Plus, basically everybody in the Southwest who charges overnight...is driving a nuclear-powered car with the electricity coming from Palo Verde. Questions of environmental friendliness aside, nuclear power is free of CO2 emissions as well. Anybody who tries to paint EVs as horrible CO2 polluters is a shill for the Koch Brothers, whether wittingly or otherwise. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150324/7278eedd/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Packing peanuts make batteries
On Mar 24, 2015, at 7:21 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2015/Q1/new-processing-technology-converts-packing-peanuts-to-battery-components.html There's another point worth noting. If this ever makes it to mass production, I'm reasonably sure the factory won't be using recycled packing peanuts salvaged from Amazon orders. Instead, the factories will get deliveries of newly-manufactured polystyrene (or whatever) to use as feedstock, pre-formed into whatever shape is the best fit for the machinery. There's just too much chance of contamination from consumer-recycled packaging materials to risk damaging a high-energy electronics assembly line. Imagine, for example, a cat who thought the box with the packaging materials would make a great litterbox, and somebody helpfully still sending it to recycling b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150324/d26ddbc3/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Packing peanuts make batteries
On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:27 PM, Gail Lucas via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A friend just sent me this link, which seems to have credibility as the research is from Purdue. Any opinions out there? I would love to have a way to recycle those peanuts. http://mobile.geek.com/latest/256277-scientists-realize-useless-packing-peanuts-make-great-batteries A good rule of thumb with these sorts of things is that, if the press release doesn't give you enough insight and inspiration to have a good idea of how to do it yourself, you don't have the knowledge and / or skills and / or equipment necessary to be able to do it yourself. ...assuming that the reporting is honest b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] EVLN: Will replacement USPS mail-trucks beElectric?
On Mar 21, 2015, at 7:18 AM, Roland via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Maybe other delivery companies may change there thinking. For fixed-route fleet vehicles, so long as range and other capabilities are adequate, you'd have to be nuts to go with anything other than electric. The savings in fuel and maintenance are just so overwhelming in such a case, and none of the typical consumer concerns (legitimate or otherwise) apply. These vehicles are already typically fueled at the depot at the end of the shift or on some other fixed schedule, so there's no worry about finding a plug at some random spot on the road. (Go 100% electric, especially for new installations, and you can eliminate an awful lot of very expensive and very messy and very hazardous fueling infrastructure.) The fixed routes means that there's no unpredictability about range. Plus, if the car _does_ break down for whatever reason, including low charge, the company calls the tow truck for you and the fleet maintenance supervisor gets chewed out. Purchase price almost doesn't matter, as it's operations and maintenance that costs all the money in fleets. And both are a tiny fraction of the cost with electric vehicles compared to the competition. So, really, the only question is whether the EV meets the necessary specifications of range, load capacity, and that sort of thing. If it does, it's game over for any ICE being considered. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150321/14805017/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] EVLN: Will replacement USPS mail-trucks beElectric?
On Mar 21, 2015, at 10:36 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 21 Mar 2015 at 9:04, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, really, the only question is whether the EV meets the necessary specifications of range, load capacity, and that sort of thing. If it does, it's game over for any ICE being considered. Unless the fleet manager puts his thumb on the scale. True. But, that's a case where Mr. Smith's Invisible Hand tends to be effective. A company that wastes, in comparison with its competitors, that kind of money...soon finds itself at a competitive disadvantage. The first company to make the leap gets a jump on the competition. And, once the competitors figure out how it is that the trailblazers are undercutting them...then the thumbs tend to get chopped off if their owners still try to keep them on the scale. The USPS, of course, is its own special unique beast. They get pulled in so many directions that the normal rules don't apply. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150321/002f4404/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] EVLN: Will replacement USPS mail-trucks be Electric?
On Mar 19, 2015, at 9:56 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So, not many [miles], but more in a day than they would be able to if this was an electric car. I also got the distinct impression that he thinks that idling an electric vehicle eats into available range. His stuff about the number of batteries was at least as bizarre, if not more so. Seems to me that there's a great potential for a publicity stunt. Find somebody who owns a Leaf to follow a mail truck for a day on a particularly long route. Fill the car up with sandbags equal to the weight of the mail. I'll bet a cup of coffee / mug of beer / other suitable beverage that the Leaf does just fine, even including the commute to and from the Post Office. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150319/e3794020/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Fwd: [NEDRA] 100-plus-racers-just-bought-fiat-500e-electric-cars
I'm certain this will be of at least equal, if not more, interest here. I still say the major automakers are missing out on a gold mine by not yet releasing relatively inexpensive electric-powered sports cars for the testosterone-poisoned crowd. Perhaps this will help nudge them in that direction. b Begin forwarded message: From: Jay Donnaway jr...@aol.com [NEDRA] ne...@yahoogroups.com Subject: [NEDRA] 100-plus-racers-just-bought-fiat-500e-electric-cars Date: March 18, 2015 11:51:25 AM MST To: ne...@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: ne...@yahoogroups.com http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1097317_100-plus-racers-just-bought-fiat-500e-electric-cars Sure, they ain't drag racers, but this sort of thing will open a lot of new eyes. Also FYI, the Kia Soul EV is leaking out of compliance states already and a couple of cars have made it to Washington State dealers. Scuttle is that a wider release is coming as Kia is able to ramp up production... __._,_.___ Posted by: Jay Donnaway jr...@aol.com Reply via web post•Reply to sender •Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (1) VISIT YOUR GROUP • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . __,_._,___ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Battery Swap - the stupid idea that wont die...
On Mar 17, 2015, at 3:21 PM, Jorg Brown via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Fundamentally the problem is economics: in a car you have a $100 tank that you're filling up with $50 of fuel. But in an EV, you have a $40,000 pack that you're filling up with $5 of fuel. That's...that's an excellent observation that puts it in a perspective I've never thought about before. And you're right. Battery swaps likely won't make economic sense until traction batteries cost as much as today's starter batteries...but, by the time that comes to pass we'll have long since solved any recharging problems without resorting to battery swaps. Tesla's robot-swappable batteries would make perfect sense for professional racing. Instead of a pit stop to fill with gas, you have a pit stop to swap batteries. And, presumably, change tires and whatever else needs to be done. It likely also makes the mechanic's job much easier. If they've taken similar approaches to other major components, they could conceivably use labor with minimal technical skills (and, of course, this being Tesla, high-powered people skills) in service stations. Something's worng with the car? Get it to the official Tesla shop, the mechanic plugs in to read where the problem is...undoes some fasteners, positions the magic robot, and a few minutes later the forward motor has been replaced with the defective unit sent to the factory for overhaul and / or salvage. But it's difficult to imagine an economically-effectie model for widespread adoption of battery swaps, once you realize, as you observed, that you can practically buy an entire car for the cost of the battery you're swapping. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150317/540b9387/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Battery Swap - the stupid idea that wont die...
On Mar 17, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: However, fork lift batteries cost many thousands of dollars. And they weigh many times more than an EV pack. And yet they *do* routinely swap them anyway. Yes and no. The owners of the forklifts and the batteries swap the batteries in and out the same way you yourself might swap the batteries on your cordless drill. But what the owners of the forklifts _aren't_ doing is swapping batteries with some other company that charges them. That's the part that doesn't make economic sense. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150317/d365908d/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)
On Mar 10, 2015, at 7:11 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: And the other error in my thinking is that MFR's simply are not going to make a NO-FRILLS 40 mile EV this early in the game Actually...I rather suspect that, by the time we get to a true no-frills EV from major manufacturers -- your archetypal base-model $15k econobox -- they'll come with at least 100 mile ranges, and the manufacturers simply won't offer them until they can sell them at a profit at that price point. And, over time, those ranges will rise. Eventually, you won't be able to buy an EV from a major manufacturer with less than a couple hundred miles of range guaranteed for the term of the warrantee -- just as you can't buy a gas-powered vehicle with a tank smaller than about eight gallons. And those people with 40 MPG city cars with eight-gallon tanks...when was the last time they used more than five gallons before filling up? So isn't that extra three gallons of tank just a waste? Why not just give the cars two gallon tanks, since 80 miles is more than you need in a day for a commuter and you can top it off in just a minute at gas stations anywhere for the price of a pseudo-coffee beverage from Starbucks? Yes, home charging changes the equation with EVs...but only marginally. For virtually all car owners today, the downsides of a range just barely more than their typical daily usage far outweigh any possible convenience home charging could ever give. The _real_ winner is long-range EVs that you normally charge at home but can also get a quick charge from a rest stop. Day-to-day, you drive for free without ever having to go to a gas station and always start with a full tank...but you can also drive to grandma's on the weekends just as you would in a gas-powered vehicle today. That's what Tesla is working towards, and they're exactly right to do so. Now, if only their charging network wasn't proprietary and if they dropped all the control freak stuff Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150310/659cad6a/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me)
On Mar 9, 2015, at 3:53 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My answer: I'm waiting for a 40 mile BEV. The Prius 12mi is too short and both it and the VOLT haul along an entirely not needed ICE (adding $10k to the price) (I have 2 other salvage Prius for all the distance I need). And my daily commute is 30 mi total. 40 miles for me. Unwilling to pay the extra $6k for the final 40 miles of the current crop of 80 mile BEV's that I'd never use. I think two points are worth raising. First, there are many people who are in your situation, including a great many who are but don't think they are. Second, there are also many people who would find your situation incomprehensible, and can't possibly imagine of what use a vehicle with only 40 miles of range could even hypothetically be. There is no one-size-fits-all answer. For those for whom your size fits, we should make sure that they know just how good a fit it is. But we'd be crazy to tell everybody else that your size fits them when it's not even remotely applicable. Any color you like, so long as it's black is not a way to gain market share. Also, as a side note, for basically all Tesla owners, $6k isn't really a noticeable fraction of a new vehicle purchase price; you can change the price of the car by that much either direction and it's only marginally going to impact sales. For people at the other end of the income scale, $6k might be their total purchase price of an used vehicle, so it doesn't get any more significant for that for them...but it's not even on the radar of somebody buying a maxed-out P85D. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-SX Owners HacksMods Could Cause Injury, Hurt Brand
On Mar 9, 2015, at 8:09 PM, David Nelson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: If our vehicle owners customize our vehicles... I thought when a vehicle was purchased and the owner held the title that the vehicle was no longer the manufacturers. For ages, you haven't been able to buy software; you only buy a license to be able to use the software in ways that the company selling it to you approves of. Similar end user license agreements have been making their way into basically any physical device that runs software. You may think you own your TV, but you really only own a license to press buttons on the remote control. Teslas are frequently described as more computer than car. I wouldn't at all be surprised if nobody actually owns any Teslas but Musk, who effectively owns them all. He just sells you a license that permits you to drive it in approved manners. To be fair, such is the case with basically _all_ modern vehicles, regardless of the source of motive power. It's just that much more in your face with Teslas, given their automatic over-the-air updates and the amount of control they visibly assert and how hard they push back against owners. There're reasons I drive cars older than I am, and a very important one is that I actually own the things. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150309/c2f6bbf5/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
If vehicle purchase was only about economics, 80% of commuter vehicles would be mopeds and Vespa-style scooters. That they're not should tell you that much more than mere economics goes into vehicle purchase decisions... ...and freedom (or versatility) is very high on that list. Indeed, it's the sort of thing so high on the list that it's not even a consideration for anybody until it's not available or somehow limited. Another example: I'd guess that probably 80% of driving is done at speeds of 45 MPH and below. It would be very economical to buy a vehicle with a top speed of only 45 MPH. Yet who seriously considers a vehicle that's not rated for the freeway, save for certain very limited domains (like golf cars in retirement communities)? Or, heck. Probably 80% of driving is done during daylight hours, too, so why bother with the expense of headlights when you can just make sure you never have to drive at night? And 80% of driving is done in dry conditions, so why have windshield wipers when you can just stay home when it might rain? I could go on, but you hopefully get the point. Today's EV fleet makes all kinds of sense for significant numbers of people, including many who might initially dismiss them out of hand. We should make sure everybody seriously considers them, but we most emphatically should *NOT* try to convince people that they can be happy with an EV by reducing their expectations for what a car should be capable of. If you're a single-car household today and you make monthly trips towing your boat to the lake 75 miles away, even if your daily commute is a mere ten miles, an EV isn't for you -- and that's just fine! Wait for the technology to catch up, but don't feel guilty in the mean time because you don't meet some idealized purity test of maximum economy. b On Mar 6, 2015, at 11:08 AM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Sure they might exist but it's not economical to own that much battery for occasional use. People like that usually have multiple cars. We first must get past the adoption curve. Too much range anxiety among people with no EV experience. From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Isn't that a bit extreme? What about the many people who want to own only one car and normally drive 20 miles a day but once a week or so go out of town - to the mountains, to the beach, to the inlaws... They could rent but might prefer the convenience of having their own vehicle ready to go. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com Sent: 06-Mar-15 9:50:03 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight It is ludicrous for someone to be paying for a 200 mile battery when all she needs is 80. As with everything else, there needs to be a variety. The smart EV shopper buys the -smallest- battery that meets her daily need. Paying for a 200 mile battery is like commuting 10 miles a day and dropping off the kids in a hummer. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:59 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today's mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
On Mar 6, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu wrote: Sure, different strokes for different folks, but EV enthusiasts are shooting us in the foot when they claim that EV's are no viable until they have 200 mile batteries! That's not at all what I and others are doing. If you re-read my note, you'll see that I wrote, Today's EV fleet makes all kinds of sense for significant numbers of people, including many who might initially dismiss them out of hand. That's not even remotely close to claiming that EVs are only viable if they have a 200 mile range. The point I'm trying to make is that most people's perception is such that a 200 mile range crosses a threshold past which an EV becomes a general-purpose no-restrictions vehicle, as opposed to a specialty / niche / limited vehicle as it is today. That perception is largely valid, even if a sizable fraction of the driving public are perfectly suited for that niche. It's the difference between an EV being an ideal commuter car for one of the two people in a two- or three-car household, and an EV being an ideal car, period, full stop. We need to be realistic about this, or else people will think we're just blowing electric smoke up their tailpipes. Sell the EVs for what they're great at, which is quite significant. But don't try to tell people that they're wasteful or being uneconomical or whatever just because they're part of that sizable population for which today's EVs are a bad fit -- and _especially- not when general-purpose EVs are right around the corner. At $300/kWh by 2020, that's $20,000 for a 200 mile battery. For an EV that should only cost about $20k, then why pay DOUBLE for a battery that 66% of us don't need. That's the kind of thing I mean. Tell people that they don't need a 200-mile vehicle when they're used to doing 400-mile road trips without a second thought, and they'll think you're some sort of tree-hugging Luddite ascetic who doesn't understand why anybody would waste money on two-ply toilet paper or name-brand boxed Mac Cheese. Instead, tell people that EVs beat the pants off gassers when it comes to commuter vehicles and city cars. Tell them that full-range EVs are here if you've got the dough for a Tesla, and will soon be here if you've got the dough for a midrange non-luxury non-econobox sedan. But _don't_ tell them that they don't actually need a 200 mile range and that they're idiots for even thinking about spending that kind of money on such waste. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/99ec976c/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today’s mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Uber CEO sez will replace all of its drivers with Auton-EVs
If there isn't, there soon will be. (And, yes, there's Barstow and Baker...and, curiously enough, that I wasn't aware of before glancing at the map just now, the Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System is just on the California side of the border north of the 15.) b On Feb 28, 2015, at 7:47 AM, Brett Davis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It can only help the traffic between Vegas and LA. Is there a good halfway point charging station? On Feb 27, 2015 11:12 PM, Gail Lucas via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The Nevada DMV has approved the use of driverless cars on our roads. I am sure they would be safer than many of the drivers currently out there. Gail - Original Message - From: Alan Arrison via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Uber CEO sez will replace all of its drivers with Auton-EVs The constant stream of news releases regarding self driving cars is pretty annoying. I'm sorry, I don't see it happening any time soon. It's just the latest tech buzzword and a way to make autos even more complicated and expensive. Talk about opening yourself up to huge liabilities I can see the all the lawyers licking their chops. Al On 2/27/2015 4:05 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenrosenbaum/2015/02/26/ the-future-of-tv-is-mobile-and-not-the-way-you-think/ The Future Of TV Is Mobile, But Not The Way You Think 2/26/2015 Steven Rosenbaum ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150228/8f0c92d0/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150228/d49741a8/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: PGE wants CA ratepayers to pay bill for $653M public
On Feb 12, 2015, at 8:08 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: They offer something that dramatically and powerfully compensates for the utility handicap I think that recent viral video of the Tesla trouncing the Dodge in a drag race, especially accompanied by the other videos of, for example, a Dodge aficionado urging people to not even consider going head-to-head with anything electric because they'll make the Dodge look bad...well, for an awful lot of people with testosterone poisoning, that's going to do the trick. Once the big automakers start making electric versions of their pony cars that out-race the top-of-the-line gasoline models, so long as the electric versions have at least the range of a Leaf and are somewhere in the middle (even upper middle) of the price range...at that point, almost nobody who buys such a car is going to want anything other than the electric version. As of about a week or so ago, the general public is starting to realize that, if you want to win races, you've gotta have an electric vehicle; gasoline just doesn't cut it any more. Pretty soon, that's going to mean that driving a gasoline-powered car is going to be a sign of emasculation and embarrassment, with all the glory going to those who drive EVs. It abruptly becomes crushingly expensive and/or extremely inconvenient to get fuel for an ICEV. I notice that gas prices are already soaring after their extended stay below $2/gal. My prediction, which is mine, is that not only is this the last time we'll ever see gas that cheap...but that this is the first of the big price spikes. I expect prices to begin fluctuating, with a constant roller-coaster ride starting now. And prices don't need to be especially high in such circumstances to make gasoline undesirable. Just the unpredictability and uncertainty alone will make people want to avoid it. Even if we just bounce back and forth between $2 and $4, people will still freak out. As they should Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150212/cb15d750/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] What is needed to build a successful practical solar vehicle.
On Feb 12, 2015, at 12:48 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It is clear that it is possible to build a practical solar vehicle. Not only that, it's downright common. I'd venture to suggest that the majority of EVs on the road today are probably solar powered. At the very least, a significant minority. It's just that the panels stay on the house's rooftop, where they can produce at their optimum output constantly, and can be made much cheaper (and bigger and heavier and more powerful) and can power more than just the car. Putting the panels on the car is a neat gimmick, and I'm sure there are obscure use cases where it makes sense. But those exact same panels will _always_ produce more power in a fixed orientation at a fixed good site -- and that's before you get anywhere near the engineering challenges (and expenses). So, if practical is the goal, forget about putting the panels on the car. Quite simply, it will never ever be even remotely practical, by any common definition of the term. But if nifty is your goal and you're willing to spend insane amounts of time and money (and especially if that's your idea of fun), then go for it. Just don't pretend to fool yourself into thinking it's even remotely related to practicability. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150212/568ea01d/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV/Hybrid-to-home emergency power
On Feb 6, 2015, at 9:48 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Am preparing a talk for this weekend about the unbelievable economics of solar power where I always stress the economics all comes from the absence of any BATTERY storage expense and the 95% efficiency of grid-tie and annual storage in the grid. Not for long, not if the utilities get their say. For example: http://srprevealed.com/ The short version: Salt River Project is poised to make solar customers pay just about what they'd pay if they didn't have any panels on their roofs in the first place. Where's the economy of tying into _that_ grid? But after several slides bashing how un-economical batteries are compared to grid-tie, I also then shift over to the HUGE free battery that comes in your hybrid or EV. Now you have a whole-house sized battery and it is off-the-shelf compatible with the high voltages of grid-tie solar! A perfect marriage. ...and just in the nick of time. Affordable EV batteries also mean affordable off-grid solar, whether or not the batteries travel with the car. A decade from now, as many people will have a Tesla-branded black box the size of a clothes hamper sitting next to the water heater and no power meter as currently do a cellphone and no landline. It's up to the utilities to decide if they want to get in on that action...and they're currently trying to re-run the same plays as Ma Bell did. Why they want to commit suicide in that particular manner is a mystery to me, but go figure Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150206/3e64ff56/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
