On 08.10.2012 20:45 Alberto G. Corona said the following:
Deutsch is right about the need to advance in Popperian
epistemology, which ultimately is evolutionary epistemology.
You may want to read Three Worlds by Karl Popper. Then you see where to
Popperian epistemology can evolve.
“To sum up
2012/10/9 Evgenii Rudnyi :
> On 08.10.2012 20:45 Alberto G. Corona said the following:
>
>> Deutsch is right about the need to advance in Popperian
>> epistemology, which ultimately is evolutionary epistemology.
>
>
> You may want to read Three Worlds by Karl Popper. Then you see where to
> Popperi
Hi Richard,
My point was that monads do not add any faculty to an object
that it does not already have. Monadization doesn't actually do anything,
it allows what is possible in principle, such as mutual actions between the mind
and body, to actually happen.
But if a computer can think, as you s
Hi Alberto G. Corona
IMHO the bottom line revolves around the problem of solipsism,
which is that we cannot prove that other people or objects have minds,
we can only say at most that they appear to have minds.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially
Hi Alberto G. Corona and Bruno,
Perhaps I can express the problem of solipsism as this.
To have a mind means that one can experience.
Experiences are subjective and thus cannot be actually shared,
the best one can do is share a description of the experience.
If one cannot actually share another's
Hi Bruno Marchal and Stathis,
1. Only entities in spacetime physically exist, and thus can be measured and
proven.
2. Experiences exist only in the mind, not in spacetime, because
they are not extended in nature. They are subjective. Beyond spacetime.
Superphysical. Unproveable to othe
Hi Bruno Marchal
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
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From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 10:19:35
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment
H
Hi Craig Weinberg
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
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From: Craig Weinberg
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 12:02:27
Subject: Conjoined Twins
Have a look at the
Hi Craig Weinberg
The subjective aspect (Firstness), some of which apparently each twin has, is
not shareable, only descriptions of it (Thirdness) are shareable.
Firstness.
What is shareable is Thirdness. What cannot be shared is Firstness.
Thirdness is the description of
Roger Clough, rclo.
Hi Craig Weinberg
Consciousness had to arise before language.
Apes are conscious.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
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T
Hi Craig Weinberg
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
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From: Craig Weinberg
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 14:25:15
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment
Hi Craig Weinberg
They can only disagree about experiences that are spoken.
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Hi Craig Weinberg
There are three things:
1) The experiences of each twin, which may be the same or differ (we'll never
know).
2) What they describe or interpret of their experiences in words.
3) They may the same experience but describe it differently.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
1
Hi John Clark
Pascal said that the heart knows things of which the mind knows not.
Consciousness is a faraway land of which we know nothing,
except that we can experience things. We can describe our
experiences but cannot share them directly or prove them.
The same is true of religion. The exp
Hi John Mikes
Intelligence is the ability to make decisions without outside help.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
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Time: 2012-10-
On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
Hi Russell,
Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to
self-modeling and some capacity to track the model of self under the
evolutionary transformations?
It's probably because AI's have
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>> There is no assumption that our knowledge of physics is complete; in
>> fact if there were that assumption there would be no point in being a
>> physicist, would there? As a matter of fact I believe that the basic
>> physics of the brain h
That is true. To pressupose an experience of self in others is a leap
on faith based on similarity. It is duck philosophy. What seems a
Duck, must be a Duck. Even Hume had to limit its destructive
philosophy to avoid self destructiveness. Because there are core
beliefs that we don´t doubt, or we
Hi Stephen P. King
I suppose AGI would be the Holy Grail of artificial intelligence,
but I fear that only the computer can know that it has
actually achieved it, for intelligence is subjective.
Not that computers can't in principle be subjective,
but that subjectivity (Firstness) can never be
Hi meekerdb
Only you can know if you actually have intelligence,
although you can appear to have intelligence (as if).
You can be tested for it.
Thus comp is not different from us, or at least it has the same
limitations.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time
Hi meekerdb
The empiricists such as Hume and Locke maintained that
all that we know has first arrived through our senses.
I agree. The stuff of knowledge comes from "below".
But Kant showed that this is not enough,
for our minds have to make "mental sense" of this data.
Consciousness or intelli
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy
The definition of beauty that I like is that
beauty is unity in diversity.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
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From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy
Hi Stathis,
The separation you missed is that mind and consciousness
are subjective entities(not shareable), while computations
are objective (shareable).
Nature put a firewall between these so we don't get them confused.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time
Hi Roger Clough
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
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From: Roger Clough
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 09:19:40
Subject: Re: Re: On complexity and bottom-up theor
Hi meekerdb
We don't know, nor can we ever know for certain, that
man has created an AGI, because actual intelligence is
subjective, so only the AGI itself can know if it is truly
intelligent. The best we can do is test it to see
if it acts "as if" it has intelligence.
Roger Clough, rclo...@
Hi meekerdb
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
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Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 17:18:59
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment
On 10/8/201
Hi Richard Ruquist
Nature has put a firewall between subjective entities such as monads
and objective entities such as BECs or the manifolds.
When I said "attached" I should have said "associated to".
There's no physical, only logical connections.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
Shades of things to come. What happens when we plug the economy of the
entire world into mindless machines programmed to go to war against numbers.
*Mysterious Algorithm Was 4% of Trading Activity Last Week*
http://www.cnbc.com/id/49333454
A single mysterious computer program that placed orders
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 6:38:24 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>
> Hi Craig Weinberg
>
> They can only disagree about experiences that are spoken.
>
You mean they can only verbally disagree. It is pretty clear that they can
disagree about their taste in things without having spoken about them
Hi Roger,
What makes you think that what you claim is true?
Richard
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi Richard Ruquist
>
> Nature has put a firewall between subjective entities such as monads
> and objective entities such as BECs or the manifolds.
> When I said "attached" I
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi meekerdb
>
> Only you can know if you actually have intelligence,
> although you can appear to have intelligence (as if).
> You can be tested for it.
>
> Thus comp is not different from us, or at least it has the same
> limitations.
I thin
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
Popper's three worlds are related to but not exactly Peirces
three categories:
World 1 is the objective world, which I would have to call Category 0.
World 2 is what Popper calls subjective reality, or what Peirce called Firstness
World 3 is Popper's objective knowledge, whi
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:07 PM, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi Stathis,
>
> The separation you missed is that mind and consciousness
> are subjective entities(not shareable), while computations
> are objective (shareable).
But we don't know the subjective qualities of a given computation, do we?
--
Hi meekerdb
IMHO self is an active agent, something like Maxwell's Demon,
that can intelligently sort raw experiences into meaningful bins, such
as Kant's categories, thus giving them some meaning.
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end.
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 6:32:19 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>
> Hi Craig Weinberg
>
> The subjective aspect (Firstness), some of which apparently each twin has,
> is
> not shareable, only descriptions of it (Thirdness) are shareable.
>
Maybe not in these twins, but in these other, brain
On 08 Oct 2012, at 18:02, Craig Weinberg wrote:
Have a look at the first few minutes of this show with conjoined
twins Abby and Brittany:
http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/tv/abby-and-brittany/videos/big-moves.htm
You can see that although they do not share the same brain they
clearly share as
On 08 Oct 2012, at 19:35, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote:
2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective
experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution to
produce consciousness and I have no explanation for why I am here,
and I have reason
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy
>
> The definition of beauty that I like is that
> beauty is unity in diversity.
>
>
>
Hi Roger,
As I mentioned, I think its very hard/perhaps impossible to tie down like
that, even though I think I can grasp what y
On 08 Oct 2012, at 20:50, Craig Weinberg wrote:
Deutsch is right.
Deutsch is not completely wrong, just unaware of the progress in
theoretical computer science, which explains why some paths are
necessarily long, and can help to avoid the confusion between
consciousness, intelligence, c
On 08 Oct 2012, at 21:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
Bruno:
It could be that the indeterminacy in the I means that everything else
is not a machine, but supposedly, an hallucination.
If reified as real, which the machine is obliged to do.
But this hallucination has a well defined set of mat
On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:07, John Mikes wrote:
Dear Richard, "I think" the lengthy text is Ben's article in
response to D. Deutsch.
Sometimes I was erring in the belief that it is YOUR text, but no.
Thanks for copying.
It is too long and too little organized for me to keep up with
ramificatio
On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote:
"If the universe were a simulation, would the constant speed of
light correspond to the clock speed driving the simulation? In other
words, the “CPU speed?”
As we are “inside” the simulation, all attempts to measure the speed
of the simul
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote:
> Ok, which computers do you think have conscious experiences? Windows
> laptops? Deep Blue? Cable TV boxes?
>
How the hell should I know if computers have conscious experiences? How the
hell should I know if people have conscious experiences? All I kno
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:17:41 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
>
> Consciousness is when you bet in your consistency, or in a reality, to
> help yourself.
>
> Consciousness precedes language, but follows perception and sensation.
>
Nice. It can be tricky because perception and sensat
On 08 Oct 2012, at 23:39, Russell Standish wrote:
On Mon, Oct 08, 2012 at 01:13:35PM -0400, Richard Ruquist wrote:
The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet
A response to David Deutsch’s recent article on AGI
October 8, 2012 by Ben Goertzel
Thanks for posting this, Richard. I was thinking of
On 09 Oct 2012, at 08:16, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
Hi Russell,
Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to
self-modeling and some capacity to track the model of self under
the evolutionary transformations?
It's probably because A
I thin that natural selection is tautological (is selected what has
fitness, fitness is what is selected) but at the same time is not
empty and it is scientifc because it can be falsified. At the same
time, if it is agreed that is the direct mechanism that design the
minds then this is the perf
On 09 Oct 2012, at 11:50, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Alberto G. Corona and Bruno,
Perhaps I can express the problem of solipsism as this.
To have a mind means that one can experience.
Hmm... Not really, with "my terminology". A mind is not enough for an
experience. You need a soul. It is a fi
On 10/9/2012 4:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
Hi Russell,
Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to self-modeling and
some capacity to track the model of self under the evolutionary transf
On 09 Oct 2012, at 12:21, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal and Stathis,
1. Only entities in spacetime physically exist, and thus can be
measured and proven.
Too much vague to me. I am OK, and I am not OK, for different
reasonable intepretations of what you say here.
I doubt something
On 09 Oct 2012, at 12:34, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Craig Weinberg
Consciousness had to arise before language.
Apes are conscious.
OK.
I think that all animals and plants are conscious, although not on a
really common scale with most animals.
I think all animals "above" the octopus, includ
On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:22, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
Hi Russell,
Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to
self-modeling and some capacity to track the model of self under
the evolution
On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:29, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
But still after this reasoning, I doubt that the self conscious
philosopher robot have the kind of thing, call it a soul, that I have.
?
You mean it is a zombie?
I can't conceive consciousness without a soul. Even if only the
universal
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 11:21:59 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> > Ok, which computers do you think have conscious experiences? Windows
>> laptops? Deep Blue? Cable TV boxes?
>>
>
> How the hell should I know if computers have conscious experie
Hi Roger Clough,
Hi meekerdb
Only you can know if you actually have intelligence,
although you can appear to have intelligence (as if).
You can be tested for it.
Thus comp is not different from us, or at least it has the same
limitations.
Exactly. And above the level of Löbianity, or with
On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:49, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi meekerdb
The empiricists such as Hume and Locke maintained that
all that we know has first arrived through our senses.
I agree. The stuff of knowledge comes from "below".
Perhaps, but we don't know that.
Cf: the dream argument.
This is alread
Thanks Craig. Interesting.
Bruno
On 09 Oct 2012, at 14:21, Craig Weinberg wrote:
Shades of things to come. What happens when we plug the economy of
the entire world into mindless machines programmed to go to war
against numbers.
Mysterious Algorithm Was 4% of Trading Activity Last Week
It may be a zombie or not. I can´t know.
The same applies to other persons. It may be that the world is made of
zombie-actors that try to cheat me, but I have an harcoded belief in
the conventional thing. Maybe it is, because otherwise, I will act
in strange and self destructive ways. I would ac
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 11:04:51 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
>> "If the universe were a simulation, would the constant speed of light
> correspond to the clock speed driving the simulation? In other words, the
> “CPU speed?”
>
On 10/9/2012 7:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 08 Oct 2012, at 19:35, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote:
2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case
there is no reason for Evolution to produce consciousness and I have no explanation
On 10/9/2012 8:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
In some sense they succeed enough the mirror test. That's enough for me to consider
them, well, not just conscious, but as conscious as me, and you.
The difference are only on domain competence, and intelligence (in which case it might
be that octopus a
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:09:57 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I think Brittany and Abby are two single individual persons.
>
I do too, but we can see that there is much more behavioral synchronization
that we would expect from two single individual persons.
Then there are th
On 10/9/2012 12:01 PM, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/9/2012 4:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
Hi Russell,
Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to
self-modeling and some capacity to track the mod
On 10/9/2012 12:28 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:22, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote:
On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
Hi Russell,
Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to
self-modeling and some capacity to tr
Bruno,
examples are not identifiction. I was referring to (your?) lack of detailed
description what the universal machine consists of and how it functions
(maybe: beyond what we know - ha ha). A comprehensive ID. Your "lot of
examples" rather denies that you have one. And:
'if it is enough FOR YOU
On 09/10/2012, at 8:39 AM, Russell Standish wrote:
The problem that exercises me (when I get a chance to exercise it) is
that of creativity. David Deutsch correctly identifies that this is one of
the main impediments to AGI. Yet biological evolution is a creative
process, one for which epistemolo
Maybe I will take you up on this - I think my uni library card expired
years ago, and its a PITA to renew.
However, since one doesn't need a mind to be creative (and my interest
is actually in mindless creative processes), I'm not sure exactly how
relevant something titled "Mechanism of Mind" it w
John,
Your model may explain why some drugs improve creativity.
Richard
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 4:52 PM, John Mikes wrote:
> On 09/10/2012, at 8:39 AM, Russell Standish wrote:
>
>
> The problem that exercises me (when I get a chance to exercise it) is
> that of creativity. David Deutsch correctly
It just may provide you that "flash of insight" you hanker for; that's my grand
hope, anyway.
here's a snippet:
"There may be no reason to say something until after it has been said. Once it
has been said a context develops to support it, and yet it would never have
been produced by a context.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9597345/Afterlife-exists-says-top-brain-surgeon.html
Comments, theories, reflections welcome.
"You pays your money and you makes your choice".
Kim Jones
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