Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older

Bill,   I disagree.  Its your belief about your experience.   Kristy --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Bill! wrote: From: Bill! Subject: Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 5:13 PM   Just THIS is not a belief, it is experience..

[Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness

Chris: I´ve have read you and acknowledge your response. Thank you Mayka --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane wrote: > > I do not come to the forum expecting it to be a place just for practicing zen > folk, and I am happy to apologize to Ed today. He has the upset because of my

[Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness

ED: Tranquility or not tranquility is something that it doesn´t bother me much. Both are part of different mental states that come and go. Getting attached to any of them it only means closing the door of the oneness of the present moment beyond duality. While letting one go in the awareness

[Zen] Re: So what should I do?

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" wrote: > > > Steve, > > The Japanese word shikantaza has been tranlated on this forum by both > Japanese and Chinese speakers in great detail. You can go back into the > posts to see all the discussion on this, but the bottom line for me is > that the

[Zen] Re: So what should I do?(to Steve/list)

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > > So many people suffering from uncertainty. Let us form a club. > > Anthony > > Should we? I don't know... And I'm not sure what we should call it! What if we give it the wrong name?! > I read once that 2 Zen/Chan people were having t

Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you?

Bill,    I agree with all of this.  I was just trying to get your butt off the cushion to take a walk--in  the garden.  Hence clearing the mind and cleansing your body to experience "just this".   Kristy --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Bill! wrote: From: Bill! Subject: Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too

Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?

*chuckles*   You said a mouthful with that!  k   --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Bill! wrote: From: Bill! Subject: [Zen] Re: So what should I do? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 5:52 PM   Anthony, Some call that corruption, some call it patronage. In the USA we cal

Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older

Bill,   I understand this.  And I don't have a belief on this, nor would it matter if I did.  But you can't argue a point in the abstract. You, yourself have stated that you are frozen  in this position, though you well know that being frozen in any belief, "experience", behavior, act, thought,

[Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Anthony, Some call that corruption, some call it patronage. In the USA we call it a commission. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > > Kristy, > > Another thing that impressed me is a lack of corruption in Japan. Yes? Maybe > they know how to conceal it. The same i

Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older

Kristy, Just THIS is my attempt to communicate direct experience. Whether you believe that or not is up to you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain wrote: > > Bill, >   > I disagree.  It is your belief about  your experience. >   > Kristy > > > --- On Thu, 1/13/11

Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you?

Kristy, When I use the word sitting I refer to zazen. I've said this many times. And for me zazen is shikantaza; and shikantaza is 'clear mind'. So...any activity I do (like daily life) with a clear mind (Buddha Mind) is shikantaza, is zazen. Washing dishes with a clear mind is zazen. I thin

Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you?

A recursive self-wetting function? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Zen is peeing into the true nature of reality! > > Edgar > On Jan 13, 2011, Bill! wrote: > > > Sitting is daily life. Daily life is sitting. ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy Mc

[Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Anthony, If your are Just Sitting you are not counting or following your breath. Then you are Counting Breath or Following Breath. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > > Bill, > > Old story. It is just the other way around. Shikan=just; taza=sitting. It is > a tech

[Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Steve, The Japanese word shikantaza has been tranlated on this forum by both Japanese and Chinese speakers in great detail. You can go back into the posts to see all the discussion on this, but the bottom line for me is that the translation means 'only sit'. When I was instructed in this by zen

Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Anthony,   Well, it would hard for me to know, given my lack of experience here, but I agree that it seems  less corrupt.  But maybe there are two sides to this coin.  I think Americans are cynical and increasingly corrupt in both values and deeds. But  my opinion is jaded by  how rude and self-

Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Kristy, Another thing that impressed me is a lack of corruption in Japan. Yes? Maybe they know how to conceal it. The same is in Singapore. The opposite is in China and Indonesia. They say if you invest $100, $95 goes to corrupt officials in Russia, but 'only' $70 in China. The remaining $30 ha

Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older

Bill,   I disagree.  It is your belief about  your experience.   Kristy --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Bill! wrote: From: Bill! Subject: Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 5:13 PM   Just THIS is not a belief, it is experienc

Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you?

The point being that > sitting = < daily life. k --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Bill! wrote: From: Bill! Subject: Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 5:12 PM   Sitting is daily life. Daily life is sitting. ...Bill! --- In

Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older

Just THIS is not a belief, it is experience...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain wrote: > > So is "just this".  k ;) > > --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Bill! wrote: > > > From: Bill! > Subject: Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thu

Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you?

Sitting is daily life. Daily life is sitting. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain wrote: > > Amen. >   > Thanks for sharing this!  k > > > --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > From: Edgar Owen > Subject: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you? > To: Zen_

[Zen] Re: News: Can sitting too much kill you?

Sitting can kill you only if it's too comfortable. ;-) --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > For all you deluded ones who believe that sitting instead of daily life is Zen. > :-) > > Edgar > > Can sitting too much kill you? > > > > By Travis Saunders | Jan 6, 201

[Zen] Re: So what should I do?(to Dave/list)

Dave, At the risk of pushing too many of your buttons, in regards to uncertainty, we don't just "live with it", we embrace it. We relish it. It is our home. Uncertainty is the reality of life. Struture and control are illusions. We need to abandon all attempts to control our lives. Efforts t

[Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness(to ED/list)

ED and Mel, I'd like to offer another perspective on sin which is presented very well by an online Christian magazine The Good News : http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn09/bibledefinesin.htm ) *** "Two broad concepts

Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you?

Very helpful. Anthony --- On Thu, 13/1/11, Edgar Owen wrote: From: Edgar Owen Subject: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 13 January, 2011, 8:22 PM   For all you deluded ones who believe that sitting

Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Anthony,   Perhaps you are correct about the Japanese, but they built a strong economy post-war. They are polite-- a welcome respite from the slick rudeness of American pundits and people.  What intrigues me now is the difference in hospital administration here.   I'm learning a great deal.   As

Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Bill, Old story. It is just the other way around. Shikan=just; taza=sitting. It is a technique to help you count and follow the breath. Shikantaza is very colloquial in Chinese. It can be heard in conversation of schoolboys. The Japanese borrowed the word and made it an addition to their nati

Re: [Zen] an open-ended question(to Anthony)

Anthony,   I think the moderators here are wise indeed.  So much for the "low intelligence" ploy.  k --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Anthony Wu wrote: From: Anthony Wu Subject: Re: [Zen] an open-ended question(to Anthony) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 4:19 PM  

Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older

ROFL!   Touché, Anthony!   Well done.. Very  well done.  K --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Anthony Wu wrote: From: Anthony Wu Subject: Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 4:24 PM   Thank you, Bill, for the most enlightened

Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?(to Steve/list)

So many people suffering from uncertainty. Let us form a club. Anthony --- On Thu, 13/1/11, Mel wrote: From: Mel Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?(to Steve/list) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 13 January, 2011, 7:06 PM   --- On T

Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older

Thank you, Bill, for the most enlightened word. Now I stopped believing the Newton's first law of action and reaction. I am going to ram onto a wall. Anthony --- On Thu, 13/1/11, Bill! wrote: From: Bill! Subject: Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date:

Re: [Zen] an open-ended question(to Anthony)

Mel, I think you are right. Nevertheless, let me quote our moderator Edgar, as from an outlook: To see illusion as illusion is reality. Anthony --- On Thu, 13/1/11, Mel wrote: From: Mel Subject: Re: [Zen] an open-ended question(to Anthony) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 13 Ja

Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Dave,   Is metta a Pali word meaning loving kindness? I am not familiar. From my experience, trying to convince myself I am right or wrong does not work well, What you need is action. Be it zazen, belly breathing or going to church. I don't know what suits you.   Anthony --- On Thu, 13/1/11, Da

Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Kristy,   Maybe both certainty and uncertainty are expressions of ego. In my case, just like Dave's, I am bothered by uncertainty associated with profit and loss. But after a good zazen session, when dualistic thinking is weaker, I feel more certain.   Different people experience different aspec

[Zen] Re: So what should I do?

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" wrote: > > Ed, > > Yes. Counting or following the breath is not shikantaza. These are > techniques that are sometimes used to get you to shikantaza. > > ...Bill! > Hi Bill! I have heard of Shikantaza, and have read about it, but really know noth

[Zen] Re: So what should I do?(to Steve/list)

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mel wrote: > > --- On Thu, 13/1/11, SteveW wrote: > > > When I was younger, I was troubled by obssesive checking behavior. I have > found that, for me, it is a matter of just being mindful of the anxiety, as > it arises, without either trying to run away fr

Re: [Zen] Not understanding mindfulness

On Thursday, January 13, 2011, Mel wrote: Again snipping the Parts I have no comment on, but I am grateful for your taking the time to answer my questions. > -- > I wonder if you Mel agree with Ed that my origina

Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you?

Chris,   Actually, you are onto something here. I agree that proper posture in zazen is an "active" sitting. As to the office-thing.. The trend these days is to use one of those giant exercise balls  as a chair in your office.  It is an exercise in balance and  spine strengthening;)  K --- On T

Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you?

Sounds like 25 minutes of sitting a day is ok. Also, physically, sitting on the zafu with legs crossed feels healthier, more active than slouching in a office chair. It requires active balance for the abdomen, something my office chair does not require. Perhaps I should switch my office to be stan

Re: [Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness

Is this something to do with the fact that we're all practising, and no-one really ever actually achieves beginners mind 100%? But still, beginners mind is something that we might agree is a goal (not the right word) of sorts.. Conversely, trying to assess the minds of others would seem to b

Re: [Zen] Not understanding mindfulness(to Chris/list)

On Thursday, January 13, 2011, Mel wrote: > > --- On Thu, 13/1/11, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > Practice doesn't change the nature of what living is. > - > MEL: It doesn't change the conditions out there, but we can change from > wi

Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older

So is "just this".  k ;) --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Bill! wrote: From: Bill! Subject: Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 4:05 AM   Science is a belief system...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming -

Re: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you?

Amen.   Thanks for sharing this!  k --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Edgar Owen wrote: From: Edgar Owen Subject: [Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 5:22 AM   For all you deluded ones who believe that sitting instead of daily

[Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness

Rose, when a woman receives box of expensive chocolates and a huge bouquet of flower from her lover, and she still says to him: "But you don't love me.", is she *assessing* his mind-state, or does the feeling about the truth of his mind-state just hit her, without her choice, from out of the blue

[Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Bill - Yes, it appears that in zazen, breath-type meditations are usually used as required, to stabilize the mind prior to shikantaza. Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness are the seventh and eight steps on the Noble Eightfold path. I can accept that Shikantaza is on the Right Mindfulness

Re: [Zen] an open-ended question(to Anthony)

Oh oh, I know, I know! What is real exactly is this moment. In my case this time, fingers touching glass. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Jan 13, 2011, at 2:51, Mel wrote: > > > Anthony, > > The question was... > > ..what is real exactly? > > which is a

Re: [Zen] Not understanding mindfulness(to Chris/list)

--- On Thu, 13/1/11, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Practice doesn't change the nature of what living is. - MEL: It doesn't change the conditions out there, but we can change from within according to the BigMind, which is always in opera

Re: [Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness(to Rose/ED/list)

...'for beginners, many choices..for experts, few' A bothered mind is one full of angst. Dualistically-put, we have to see through all the coverings of angst Years of zazen practise will not save the mind from being roiled in the future in peace Mel --- On Thu, 13/1/11, Rose P wrote: I'm

Re: [Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness

...making good decisions..or bad decisions..suffering, joy, to live, to die...but Buddha is still there, and will never go away   Buddha may get covered, but it will never go away, and is there to stay..forever   in peace Mel --- On Thu, 13/1/11, ED wrote: From: ED Subject: [Zen] Re: Not unde

Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older(to JMJM/list)

Hey there JMJM! --- On Thu, 13/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 Subject: Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, 13 January, 2011, 11:17 AM   >From my limited understanding, Tao is a system, or s

Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?(to Dave/list)

Hi Dave   We  just live with it. I don't know how else to put it. This is where zazen and the teaching of emptiness comes into play. This is being evangelistic, but without faith in Buddha/original self/BigMind then things are that much harder. Only you can save yourself   For example, some peo

Re: [Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness(to ED/list)

Funny. ED, there's no good or bad in Zen(and Bodhidharma is not the Jesus of Zen). There's only activity, just like zazen   in peace Mel     --- On Thu, 13/1/11, ED wrote: From: ED Subject: [Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Received: Thursday, 13 January,

Re: [Zen] Not understanding mindfulness

Hi there Chris! --- On Thu, 13/1/11, ChrisAustinLane wrote: From: ChrisAustinLane Subject: Re: [Zen] Not understanding mindfulness To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" Cc: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" Received: Thursday, 13 January, 2011, 6:29 AM   I do not think that followers of Judaism tr

[Zen] News: Can sitting too much kill you?

> For all you deluded ones who believe that sitting instead of daily life is > Zen. :-) Edgar > > Can sitting too much kill you? > > By Travis Saunders | Jan 6, 2011 10:39 AM > > We all know that physical activity is important for good health—regardless of > your age, gender or body weight,

[Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness

Rose, That's a good question. Beginner's mind would not try to access the mind states of others. Beginner's mind would just take things as they come, the way they are without evaluation, categorization, etc... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Rose P wrote: > > I'm just wondering w

[Zen] Re: So what should I do?

Ed, Yes. Counting or following the breath is not shikantaza. These are techniques that are sometimes used to get you to shikantaza. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED" wrote: > > > > Bill - > > Counting breaths is not Shikantaza. Yes? > > Following the breath without countin

Re: [Zen] Re: So what should I do?(to Steve/list)

--- On Thu, 13/1/11, SteveW wrote: When I was younger, I was troubled by obssesive checking behavior. I have found that, for me, it is a matter of just being mindful of the anxiety, as it arises, without either trying to run away from it or run toward it. And then I choose to do something els

Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older

Science is a belief system...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: > > Hello TMSO, > > I would say both are NOT believe systems. > > From my limited understanding, Tao is a system, or school well > documented. It primarily focuses on attaining immo

Re: [Zen] Not understanding mindfulness(to Mayka)

--- On Wed, 12/1/11, Maria Lopez wrote: MEL: Hi Mayka M: Thank you for the time spent in writing and thoughtful post. I don´t have the material time right now to read in depth and reciprocate  your kindnest but I have acknowledge you.  Thank you. MEL: My pleasure, and thank you as well in pe

Re: [Zen] an open-ended question(to Anthony)

Anthony,   The question was...   ..what is real exactly?   which is a question that I don't think can be answered completely due to different outlooks on life   peace Mel --- On Thu, 13/1/11, Anthony Wu wrote: From: Anthony Wu Subject: Re: [Zen] an open-ended question(to Anthony) To: