Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/15/2014 12:47 AM, Bob Long wrote: Sorry, I don't follow... Why can't you simply open a .png file in GIMP 2.8 that was created earlier (and then close it, without any prompts, if you've made no changes)? It's simple, really. GiMP has an image problem. Like so many other F/OSS projects, people out there think of it as a toy because it doesn't cost a whole lot of money and doesn't have a giant name behind it. (You know, like Cisco or VMware -- both of which base their products on Linux, a F/OSS toy.) So in order to fight that perception, the project must adopt a philosophy that every action done with GiMP is a project and that the [professional] user's data must be guarded against the user's own mistakes at every possible moment. GiMP is not an image viewer. GiMP is not a simple image manipulation program. It is a serious project tool which must have a workflow which reflects that. Otherwise people will not take it or its contributors seriously. This is about ego, not about simplicity or convenience or efficiency. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Helen wrote: And the comments I get about not really having an image that I think I have (several people say variations of that) is completely over my head. And wonder whether it has a practical significance or just a semantic one. It depends what format you're exporting to and what properties of the image you care about (quality, transparency, layers, etc...) It certainly does make a difference for lossy formats such as JPEG. To make the difference obvious... In GIMP 2.6: 1. Create an image with some sharp corners (e.g. a solid black square in the centre of a white page). 2. Save it as a JPEG, setting quality really low (e.g. to 5). 3. The image open in GIMP still has nice clean corners. It is NOT showing what the image in the JPEG file looks like (despite the window title showing jpg); it is showing the image you had been working on immediately before saving, ready for you to continue work. 4. Close the image. 5. Open the JPEG file. 6. Notice the artefacts around the edges and particularly the corners of the black square. Even in GIMP 2.6, the image seen in step 3. was *not* the image contained in the JPEG file. In GIMP 2.8: 1. Create an image with some hard corners (e.g. a solid black square in the centre of a white page). 2. Export it to JPEG, setting quality really low (e.g. to 5). 3. The image open in GIMP still has nice clean corners. It is NOT showing what the image in the JPEG file looks like, it is showing the image you had been working on immediately before exporting (just like in GIMP 2.6, but that's more obvious now, since the window title doesn't show jpg). 4. Close the image; it warns that you have unsaved data (because you do - that nice clean black square doesn't exist in the JPEG file). 5. Open the JPEG file. 6. As before, notice the artefacts around the edges and corners of the black square. But you were warned that nice clean black square hadn't been saved. Hopefully that helps clear up the difference between what GIMP shows during the course of working on an image (including immediately after saving/exporting), and what is actually stored in the file. Mark. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
This is such a common task, there may be cause to have a Resize option bundled with the Export command. Having to always perform them as two separate steps is an annoyance, but the possibility of accidentally saving the wrong resolution back to the XCF file is a danger. First, I'm so glad to see we finally understand what Helen meant in this thread! And yes, I've had this issue too, where I want to work on a large-size original, save that as XCF, but expert to a different size for the web. I'm forever afraid that when I scale and export, I'll forget to undo the scale afterward and accidentally overwrite the scaled-down XCF. (That's not a new issue with 2.8.) But that got me thinking about a better workflow for this. Have you ever worked on an image and made a new view zoomed way out so you could guess what the image would look like when reduced to a thumbnail size? Imagine this: you have your original image open, which you've been saving to filename.xcf.gz. You create a second view, except unlike existing views, it can have operations and its own export filename tied to it. Create the view and scale it to 640x480, and export to filename-640.jpg. Back in the original window, if you export it still goes to filename.jpg (or whatever you exported to previously). Now make a change to the original; the second view automatically mirrors the change (just like the views we have now) but also applies the Scale operation and any other operations that have been done in that window. You could even create a third view where you scale to 64x48 and export to filename-thumb.jpg, and all three would update when you changed the original. Or a view that converts to indexed mode, or inverts the colors, or even adds a text or annotation layer. I'm not sure if this workflow fits into the GIMP product vision or not. But if the GIMP team liked the idea, it might not be too hard to implement alongside the non-destructive op changes that have often been discussed. ...Akkana ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Why aren't you scaling it before you export it? That would be way too scary!! The easiest way (for me) to lose a lot of work on a .xcf file would be to scale it and then accidentally save. The old (2.6 method I described) protected me from an accident such as that. On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Mark Morin mdmp...@gmail.com wrote: Why aren't you scaling it before you export it? Undo the scale or don't save the scaled xcf? It seems to me that you would want to minimize any possible (even if trivial) distortion by editing the exported (flattened) image rather than what you are actually working on. On 1/13/2014 11:27 AM, Helen wrote: which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp ok First In gimp 2.6: open or create new file. Name it. I now have (e.g.) village.xcf Work on it for weeks, saving every few minutes with file save I now have village.xcf with all layers preserved I finish the picture, and do two steps: file save, and then file SaveAs village.png I now have two copies of my creation, one with layers, and one flattened. The village.png is now the one I see on my screen; title bar confirms I then do Image scale image change X Y resolution to 72 and pixel to some small size and click Scale. I now have one large village.xcf with all properties preserved,and one small flattened village.png for mailing or uploading. All is well. ( For those who keep saying you were never able to do this, I posted a screen shot at http://helenofmarlowe.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/usinggimp/ showing that yes, in 2.6, you could see and work on the saved as image. click screenshot image to enlarge) Now, in gimp 2.8 open or create new file. Name it. I now have (e.g.) village.xcf Work on it for weeks, saving every few minutes with file save I now have village.xcf with all layers preserved I finish the picture, and do two steps: file save, and then file export I now have a flattened image named village.png So I need to scale it, make it small enough to email or upload But unlike in 2.6, I can’t simply proceed to do that. I have to re-open village.png ( Can't work on an image that's now showing on the monitor) So I go to File Open Recent and click village.png But of course when it opens it's no longer png It opens as [village](imported) Now I can of course scale this one down, but I can't save it as png so I have to export it again after I scale it. But then I have to rename it because I already have a village.png. Is this the intended work flow for creating a small, flattened png copy of a large multi-layerd xcf? It seems to be creating difficulties for a number of users. I don't think we'd have had this mountain of complaints over something as trivial as an unwanted save warning. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 4:26 PM, Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net wrote: On Fri, 2014-01-10 at 15:19 -0500, Helen wrote: Ok, I'm trying, but this just doesn't make sense to me. You're saying I was never able to see my file after I save as to png or jpg, in prior versions of GIMP. Helen, I think what's going on here is a question of people using words differently, or more or less precisely. None of us can see files unless we take apart the computer, get out a microsocope, and look at the surface of the disk. No, I'm not being a smart-ass :-), what I mean is this: The only way we see a file normally is if some program or other shows it to us. So when you say a file disappears, or you can't see a file, please tell us where exactly you were seeing it before - on the deskop? In a gimp window? On the list of programs at the bottom of your screen? Then, which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? E.g. don't say, I saved it, say, In gimp 2.8, (1) choose file-quit (2) when the prompt appears, if you quit you will lose 20 hours of work, press save (3) now gimp is no longer displaying my file and has gone away. In gimp 2.6, (1) choose file-save (2) select a filename happyboy.jpg and press OK (3) press OK to save the file (4) GIMP is still displaying the file and the title of the window says happyboy.hpg In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp, as if you were telling someone else sitting at your desk how to operate the computer. Then say what you expected to see, what you actually saw, and what exactly was the difference. If it's a bug we's like to understand and fix it. if it's a problem with the manual, or a place where GIMP is harder to use than it could be, we'd like to know that too. I love your drawings, by the way. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 22:41:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter From: etter...@gmail.com To: strata_ran...@hotmail.com CC: l...@holoweb.net; gimp-user-list@gnome.org 5 - You are done! There is no need to re-open the PNG file. Well, this may or may not be true. When, six months or a year later I want to look at a .png (check the resolution, see whether it needs to be sharpened/signed/whatever) then I do, sometimes want to look at (and maybe adjust in some way) a png image. Comments by Alex and others do point out that opening the exported file (into a new window/tab) just to verify what it actually looks like is indeed a useful step. And come to think of it, I know I've done that from time to time with my JPG's And the comments I get about not really having an image that I think I have (several people say variations of that) is completely over my head. And wonder whether it has a practical significance or just a semantic one. I'd call it semantics. A matter of principle that the end user may not even care about. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 22:17:53 -0500 From: etter...@gmail.com To: mdmp...@gmail.com CC: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter Why aren't you scaling it before you export it? That would be way too scary!! The easiest way (for me) to lose a lot of work on a .xcf file would be to scale it and then accidentally save. The old (2.6 method I described) protected me from an accident such as that. Yeah, I agree; although the initial PNG export is technically redundant (since you're about to resize export over the same filename anyway) with 2.6's save model this DID have the advantage of preventing you from accidentally overwriting your XCF file with the wrong image resolution during any intermediate steps. Whereas with 2.8's Save/Export model you do not have that protection whatsoever, because the Save command always targets the XCF file (i.e. is unaffected by any exports). Literally every moment between the initial image resize and the final close/quit carries the possibility you might accidentally save the wrong resolution to your XCF file. It's especially dangerous if this happens during the prompt when you close the image because in this case you won't have an Undo history to come back later and revert back to the correct resolution with. So for now, about the safest thing to do is just duplicate the image into a new window/tab (which isn't linked to the XCF file) before you make any potentially destructive edits you do NOT want included in your XCF. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Helen said, 5 - You are done! There is no need to re-open the PNG file. Well, this may or may not be true. When, six months or a year later I want to look at a .png (check the resolution, see whether it needs to be sharpened/signed/whatever) then I do, sometimes want to look at (and maybe adjust in some way) a png image. I've been spoiled with the ability to do that in 2.6 (open -- see that it's what I want--close) but I'm just going to have to get used to another way. Sorry, I don't follow... Why can't you simply open a .png file in GIMP 2.8 that was created earlier (and then close it, without any prompts, if you've made no changes)? -- Bob Long ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp ok First In gimp 2.6: open or create new file. Name it. I now have (e.g.) village.xcf Work on it for weeks, saving every few minutes with file save I now have village.xcf with all layers preserved I finish the picture, and do two steps: file save, and then file SaveAs village.png I now have two copies of my creation, one with layers, and one flattened. The village.png is now the one I see on my screen; title bar confirms I then do Image scale image change X Y resolution to 72 and pixel to some small size and click Scale. I now have one large village.xcf with all properties preserved,and one small flattened village.png for mailing or uploading. All is well. ( For those who keep saying you were never able to do this, I posted a screen shot at http://helenofmarlowe.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/usinggimp/ showing that yes, in 2.6, you could see and work on the saved as image. click screenshot image to enlarge) Now, in gimp 2.8 open or create new file. Name it. I now have (e.g.) village.xcf Work on it for weeks, saving every few minutes with file save I now have village.xcf with all layers preserved I finish the picture, and do two steps: file save, and then file export I now have a flattened image named village.png So I need to scale it, make it small enough to email or upload But unlike in 2.6, I can’t simply proceed to do that. I have to re-open village.png ( Can't work on an image that's now showing on the monitor) So I go to File Open Recent and click village.png But of course when it opens it's no longer png It opens as [village](imported) Now I can of course scale this one down, but I can't save it as png so I have to export it again after I scale it. But then I have to rename it because I already have a village.png. Is this the intended work flow for creating a small, flattened png copy of a large multi-layerd xcf? It seems to be creating difficulties for a number of users. I don't think we'd have had this mountain of complaints over something as trivial as an unwanted save warning. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 4:26 PM, Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net wrote: On Fri, 2014-01-10 at 15:19 -0500, Helen wrote: Ok, I'm trying, but this just doesn't make sense to me. You're saying I was never able to see my file after I save as to png or jpg, in prior versions of GIMP. Helen, I think what's going on here is a question of people using words differently, or more or less precisely. None of us can see files unless we take apart the computer, get out a microsocope, and look at the surface of the disk. No, I'm not being a smart-ass :-), what I mean is this: The only way we see a file normally is if some program or other shows it to us. So when you say a file disappears, or you can't see a file, please tell us where exactly you were seeing it before - on the deskop? In a gimp window? On the list of programs at the bottom of your screen? Then, which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? E.g. don't say, I saved it, say, In gimp 2.8, (1) choose file-quit (2) when the prompt appears, if you quit you will lose 20 hours of work, press save (3) now gimp is no longer displaying my file and has gone away. In gimp 2.6, (1) choose file-save (2) select a filename happyboy.jpg and press OK (3) press OK to save the file (4) GIMP is still displaying the file and the title of the window says happyboy.hpg In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp, as if you were telling someone else sitting at your desk how to operate the computer. Then say what you expected to see, what you actually saw, and what exactly was the difference. If it's a bug we's like to understand and fix it. if it's a problem with the manual, or a place where GIMP is harder to use than it could be, we'd like to know that too. I love your drawings, by the way. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
This is a simple work flow issue. After saving image.xcf you can change the resolution before and/or after exporting image.png. If you want two png files with different resolutions you can export, image_300.png change resolution and export image_72.png Gimp will ask if you want to save the changes when you close image.xcf Beware, as this will overwrite the changes to image.xcf file Better if you Save As... image_300.xcf and Save As... image_72.xcf (full and low resolution versions) and export separately from each. -A -Original Message- From: Helen etter...@gmail.com To: Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net; gimp-user-list@gnome.org gimp-user-list@gnome.org Sent: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:28 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp ok First In gimp 2.6: open or create new file. Name it. I now have (e.g.) village.xcf Work on it for weeks, saving every few minutes with file save I now have village.xcf with all layers preserved I finish the picture, and do two steps: file save, and then file SaveAs village.png I now have two copies of my creation, one with layers, and one flattened. The village.png is now the one I see on my screen; title bar confirms I then do Image scale image change X Y resolution to 72 and pixel to some small size and click Scale. I now have one large village.xcf with all properties preserved,and one small flattened village.png for mailing or uploading. All is well. ( For those who keep saying you were never able to do this, I posted a screen shot at http://helenofmarlowe.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/usinggimp/ showing that yes, in 2.6, you could see and work on the saved as image. click screenshot image to enlarge) Now, in gimp 2.8 open or create new file. Name it. I now have (e.g.) village.xcf Work on it for weeks, saving every few minutes with file save I now have village.xcf with all layers preserved I finish the picture, and do two steps: file save, and then file export I now have a flattened image named village.png So I need to scale it, make it small enough to email or upload But unlike in 2.6, I can’t simply proceed to do that. I have to re-open village.png ( Can't work on an image that's now showing on the monitor) So I go to File Open Recent and click village.png But of course when it opens it's no longer png It opens as [village](imported) Now I can of course scale this one down, but I can't save it as png so I have to export it again after I scale it. But then I have to rename it because I already have a village.png. Is this the intended work flow for creating a small, flattened png copy of a large multi-layerd xcf? It seems to be creating difficulties for a number of users. I don't think we'd have had this mountain of complaints over something as trivial as an unwanted save warning. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 4:26 PM, Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net wrote: On Fri, 2014-01-10 at 15:19 -0500, Helen wrote: Ok, I'm trying, but this just doesn't make sense to me. You're saying I was never able to see my file after I save as to png or jpg, in prior versions of GIMP. Helen, I think what's going on here is a question of people using words differently, or more or less precisely. None of us can see files unless we take apart the computer, get out a microsocope, and look at the surface of the disk. No, I'm not being a smart-ass :-), what I mean is this: The only way we see a file normally is if some program or other shows it to us. So when you say a file disappears, or you can't see a file, please tell us where exactly you were seeing it before - on the deskop? In a gimp window? On the list of programs at the bottom of your screen? Then, which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? E.g. don't say, I saved it, say, In gimp 2.8, (1) choose file-quit (2) when the prompt appears, if you quit you will lose 20 hours of work, press save (3) now gimp is no longer displaying my file and has gone away. In gimp 2.6, (1) choose file-save (2) select a filename happyboy.jpg and press OK (3) press OK to save the file (4) GIMP is still displaying the file and the title of the window says happyboy.hpg In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp, as if you were telling someone else sitting at your desk how to operate the computer. Then say what you expected to see, what you actually saw, and what exactly was the difference. If it's a bug we's like to understand and fix it. if it's a problem with the manual, or a place where GIMP is harder to use than it could be, we'd like to know that too. I love your drawings, by the way. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:59:17 -0500 From: uga...@talktalk.net Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter If you want two png files with different resolutions you can export, image_300.png change resolution and export image_72.png Gimp will ask if you want to save the changes when you close image.xcf Beware, as this will overwrite the changes to image.xcf file Better if you Save As... image_300.xcf and Save As... image_72.xcf (full and low resolution versions) and export separately from each. This is such a common task, there may be cause to have a Resize option bundled with the Export command. Having to always perform them as two separate steps is an annoyance, but the possibility of accidentally saving the wrong resolution back to the XCF file is a danger. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:00:18 + From: andrew_brid...@btinternet.com To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter You need to have a look at 'Save for Web' as you can save to .png and resize without altering your original image (village.xcf). Once saved the .png file will be the smaller size without re-opening and the vilage.xcf will not be affected. Hope this helps ? Andrew I thought this was a GIMP mailing list and not Photoshop? :) -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 13/01/2014 17:12, Richard wrote: Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:00:18 + From: andrew_brid...@btinternet.com To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter You need to have a look at 'Save for Web' as you can save to .png and resize without altering your original image (village.xcf). Once saved the .png file will be the smaller size without re-opening and the vilage.xcf will not be affected. Hope this helps ? Andrew I thought this was a GIMP mailing list and not Photoshop? :) -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. Lastest 2.8.10 has 'Save for Web' so still a GIMP mailing list... Yeah ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
-Original Message- From: Richard strata_ran...@hotmail.com To: uga...@talktalk.net uga...@talktalk.net; gimp-user-list@gnome.org gimp-user-list@gnome.org Sent: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:13 Subject: RE: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 11:59:17 -0500 From: uga...@talktalk.net Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter If you want two png files with different resolutions you can export, image_300.png change resolution and export image_72.png Gimp will ask if you want to save the changes when you close image.xcf Beware, as this will overwrite the changes to image.xcf file Better if you Save As... image_300.xcf and Save As... image_72.xcf (full and low resolution versions) and export separately from each. This is such a common task, there may be cause to have a Resize option bundled with the Export command. Having to always perform them as two separate steps is an annoyance, but the possibility of accidentally saving the wrong resolution back to the XCF file is a danger. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. Yes. Of course you may decide to make a flattened full resolution xcf version and export multiple resolution png files from this. It doesn't matter if you corrupt the source xcf (flattened) file as you can easily replace it from the master xcf document. Courses for horses, I suppose. -A ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Why aren't you scaling it before you export it? Undo the scale or don't save the scaled xcf? It seems to me that you would want to minimize any possible (even if trivial) distortion by editing the exported (flattened) image rather than what you are actually working on. On 1/13/2014 11:27 AM, Helen wrote: which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp ok First In gimp 2.6: open or create new file. Name it. I now have (e.g.) village.xcf Work on it for weeks, saving every few minutes with file save I now have village.xcf with all layers preserved I finish the picture, and do two steps: file save, and then file SaveAs village.png I now have two copies of my creation, one with layers, and one flattened. The village.png is now the one I see on my screen; title bar confirms I then do Image scale image change X Y resolution to 72 and pixel to some small size and click Scale. I now have one large village.xcf with all properties preserved,and one small flattened village.png for mailing or uploading. All is well. ( For those who keep saying you were never able to do this, I posted a screen shot at http://helenofmarlowe.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/usinggimp/ showing that yes, in 2.6, you could see and work on the saved as image. click screenshot image to enlarge) Now, in gimp 2.8 open or create new file. Name it. I now have (e.g.) village.xcf Work on it for weeks, saving every few minutes with file save I now have village.xcf with all layers preserved I finish the picture, and do two steps: file save, and then file export I now have a flattened image named village.png So I need to scale it, make it small enough to email or upload But unlike in 2.6, I can’t simply proceed to do that. I have to re-open village.png ( Can't work on an image that's now showing on the monitor) So I go to File Open Recent and click village.png But of course when it opens it's no longer png It opens as [village](imported) Now I can of course scale this one down, but I can't save it as png so I have to export it again after I scale it. But then I have to rename it because I already have a village.png. Is this the intended work flow for creating a small, flattened png copy of a large multi-layerd xcf? It seems to be creating difficulties for a number of users. I don't think we'd have had this mountain of complaints over something as trivial as an unwanted save warning. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 4:26 PM, Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net wrote: On Fri, 2014-01-10 at 15:19 -0500, Helen wrote: Ok, I'm trying, but this just doesn't make sense to me. You're saying I was never able to see my file after I save as to png or jpg, in prior versions of GIMP. Helen, I think what's going on here is a question of people using words differently, or more or less precisely. None of us can see files unless we take apart the computer, get out a microsocope, and look at the surface of the disk. No, I'm not being a smart-ass :-), what I mean is this: The only way we see a file normally is if some program or other shows it to us. So when you say a file disappears, or you can't see a file, please tell us where exactly you were seeing it before - on the deskop? In a gimp window? On the list of programs at the bottom of your screen? Then, which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? E.g. don't say, I saved it, say, In gimp 2.8, (1) choose file-quit (2) when the prompt appears, if you quit you will lose 20 hours of work, press save (3) now gimp is no longer displaying my file and has gone away. In gimp 2.6, (1) choose file-save (2) select a filename happyboy.jpg and press OK (3) press OK to save the file (4) GIMP is still displaying the file and the title of the window says happyboy.hpg In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp, as if you were telling someone else sitting at your desk how to operate the computer. Then say what you expected to see, what you actually saw, and what exactly was the difference. If it's a bug we's like to understand and fix it. if it's a problem with the manual, or a place where GIMP is harder to use than it could be, we'd like to know that too. I love your drawings, by the way. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
I actually go through this process frequently--I create a webcomic, and I like to work on a large file (about 3000x4000). To publish it to the web I resize to 750 px wide. I like to have both copies, but a Resize-on-Export function would be helpful for me. In order to preserve the xcf and not accidentally lose that large-size data, my current workflow is: Save the xcf Export it, full-size Open the export (usually a png) Resize the png export the png to another file name. I can do that fairly quickly with keyboard shortcuts, but if I were to have the option to resize, I could create both copies (large-size and small-size) from the original xcf. On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Mark Morin mdmp...@gmail.com wrote: Why aren't you scaling it before you export it? Undo the scale or don't save the scaled xcf? It seems to me that you would want to minimize any possible (even if trivial) distortion by editing the exported (flattened) image rather than what you are actually working on. On 1/13/2014 11:27 AM, Helen wrote: which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp ok First In gimp 2.6: open or create new file. Name it. I now have (e.g.) village.xcf Work on it for weeks, saving every few minutes with file save I now have village.xcf with all layers preserved I finish the picture, and do two steps: file save, and then file SaveAs village.png I now have two copies of my creation, one with layers, and one flattened. The village.png is now the one I see on my screen; title bar confirms I then do Image scale image change X Y resolution to 72 and pixel to some small size and click Scale. I now have one large village.xcf with all properties preserved,and one small flattened village.png for mailing or uploading. All is well. ( For those who keep saying you were never able to do this, I posted a screen shot at http://helenofmarlowe.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/usinggimp/ showing that yes, in 2.6, you could see and work on the saved as image. click screenshot image to enlarge) Now, in gimp 2.8 open or create new file. Name it. I now have (e.g.) village.xcf Work on it for weeks, saving every few minutes with file save I now have village.xcf with all layers preserved I finish the picture, and do two steps: file save, and then file export I now have a flattened image named village.png So I need to scale it, make it small enough to email or upload But unlike in 2.6, I can’t simply proceed to do that. I have to re-open village.png ( Can't work on an image that's now showing on the monitor) So I go to File Open Recent and click village.png But of course when it opens it's no longer png It opens as [village](imported) Now I can of course scale this one down, but I can't save it as png so I have to export it again after I scale it. But then I have to rename it because I already have a village.png. Is this the intended work flow for creating a small, flattened png copy of a large multi-layerd xcf? It seems to be creating difficulties for a number of users. I don't think we'd have had this mountain of complaints over something as trivial as an unwanted save warning. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 4:26 PM, Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net wrote: On Fri, 2014-01-10 at 15:19 -0500, Helen wrote: Ok, I'm trying, but this just doesn't make sense to me. You're saying I was never able to see my file after I save as to png or jpg, in prior versions of GIMP. Helen, I think what's going on here is a question of people using words differently, or more or less precisely. None of us can see files unless we take apart the computer, get out a microsocope, and look at the surface of the disk. No, I'm not being a smart-ass :-), what I mean is this: The only way we see a file normally is if some program or other shows it to us. So when you say a file disappears, or you can't see a file, please tell us where exactly you were seeing it before - on the deskop? In a gimp window? On the list of programs at the bottom of your screen? Then, which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? E.g. don't say, I saved it, say, In gimp 2.8, (1) choose file-quit (2) when the prompt appears, if you quit you will lose 20 hours of work, press save (3) now gimp is no longer displaying my file and has gone away. In gimp 2.6, (1) choose file-save (2) select a filename happyboy.jpg and press OK (3) press OK to save the file (4) GIMP is still displaying the file and the title of the window says happyboy.hpg In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp, as if you were telling someone else sitting at your desk how to operate the computer. Then say what you expected to see, what you actually saw, and what exactly was the
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
13 янв. 2014 г. 22:32 пользователь Andrew_Bridget andrew_brid...@btinternet.com написал: This is such a common task, there may be cause to have a Resize option bundled with the Export command. Having to always perform them as two separate steps is an annoyance, but the possibility of accidentally saving the wrong resolution back to the XCF file is a danger. If you reall care about the output quality, you _never_ just resize. You resize and sharpen, and amount of sharpening is decided on picture-by-picture basis. This is something I would expect the Save for Web plugin to do, not the stock exporter. Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:27 AM, Ofnuts wrote: If you reall care about the output quality, you _never_ just resize. You resize and sharpen, and amount of sharpening is decided on picture-by-picture basis. Yes. And sometimes you even blur the picture slightly before resizing to avoid artifacts caused by spatial frequency folding. Precisely :) This is something I would expect the Save for Web plugin to do, not the stock exporter. Web is a bit restrictive: games, wallpapers, pictures in documents... Restrictive? To me it's just a fancy and easy to understand name for a function that everyone who's in this business knows from Photoshop anyway. I can't immediately think of a different name to explain in few plain words that resizing, optimization, and enhancement for final output is about to happen. Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:15:10 + From: andrew_brid...@btinternet.com To: strata_ran...@hotmail.com; gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter On 13/01/2014 17:12, Richard wrote: Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 17:00:18 + From: andrew_brid...@btinternet.com To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter You need to have a look at 'Save for Web' as you can save to .png and resize without altering your original image (village.xcf). Once saved the .png file will be the smaller size without re-opening and the vilage.xcf will not be affected. Hope this helps ? Andrew I thought this was a GIMP mailing list and not Photoshop? :) -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. Lastest 2.8.10 has 'Save for Web' so still a GIMP mailing list... Yeah -- Uh, no it doesn't just updated to 2.8.10 and I don't see any difference from 2.8.8 (aside from the labelling of the menu items). -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
It is hard to tell, but this sounds like a work flow issue. -Original Message- From: roadie roa...@zenroadie.org To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Sent: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 2:20 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter And, Liam, I believe this is what you're asking. In 2.8, I save every few minutes with File Save. I see a brief less than a second progress bar but nothing changes. All is well. At some point later, the picture is (more or less, sort of) finished, and I want to send it somewhere. I go through four steps: File Save (just to be sure) and then File export. I confirm, a longer (10 seconds?) progress bar, and then the image is gone. No there. Yes, I can still open it with Digikam or Gimp's File Open Recent, or with Gimp's document history, and maybe I need to just accept that. My old ubuntu laptop with 2.6 is very old and not suitable for real work, and I think that my SuSE 12 probably would not support the 2.6 gtk Helen, this sounds as if you want to open the PNG or JPG file. If your open image window in Gimp has a button at the lower right that says: “GIMP XCF image (*.xcf)” then that file wont be listed. You could set the button to “All images”. But if I went into my studio to paint a canvas (painting.xcf) and later took a polaroid of my progress (Export painting.png) I would not continue my work by painting on the polaroid. But maybe I misunderstand and you have a bug in your GIMP or gtk. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 1/11/2014 3:54 PM, Helen wrote: Close. Not exactly but closer than anyone has understood so far. Mark said: Helen opens myfile.jpg with gimp. She saves myfile.jpg and it becomes myfile.xcf. She can't see myfile.jpg any more to see what it looks like I suppose that's true in some (trivial?) sense but doens't matter. I see the .xcf. She exports myfile.xcf to myfile.jpg and that's fine, the jpg is saved but it is not displayed. If the xcf had been saved, she is looking at the xcf. If the xcf had not been saved and she exported myfile.jpg to a jpg file, she is now looking at untitled.xcf. This is what the problem is. Well, I would never export a file that hasn't been first saved a xcf, but regardless of that, I don't see what I was working on.Mark I can't do what you said about windows, I have no computers that run windows but I assume what you are thinking is what i can do in digkam, and yes the file is there. But to continue working on it I have to open it again. She can't see it because the file name is no longer in the title bar of the window. She is apparently looking in the title bar of the image window--that off color strip that displays the file name of the image in the window. No, not looking at the title bar of the image window. Thre isn't one. It's gone. Although, yes, the file is on my computer. I posted a screenshot here http://helenofmarlowe.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/usinggimp/ yesterday showing what I see in gimp 2.6 after exporting. I'm looking at that page now and the only think that I can see that looks like it would be a screenshot would be a gimp screenshot of sky.jpg When I say Title Bar I'm talking about that area immediately above the menu bar, to the right of the close, minimize, and maximize buttons. Is this what you see after you export a file to jpg format? If it is, then you can add me to your confused list because I'm looking at your file--sky.jpg. It's a teal-green gradient. Running gimp 2.8 under fedora 20 I: 1. downloaded gwoodfarmfromback.png from the page you gave above (very nice by the way) 2. saved it (as .xcf) 3. exported it as .jpg (note, I had to change the default .png to .jpg after selecting jpg as the file type. 4. the file exports, the image is still visible on the screen and the filename is displayed as gwoodfarmfromback.xcf 5. if I browse to where I saved and exported the files, I now have three versions--all with the same file name with extensions .jpg, .png, and .xcf I'll post a screenshot of what I get in 2.8 after exporting. And, Liam, I believe this is what you're asking. In 2.8, I save every few minutes with File Save. I see a brief less than a second progress bar but nothing changes. All is well. At some point later, the picture is (more or less, sort of) finished, and I want to send it somewhere. I go through four steps: File Save (just to be sure) and then File export. I confirm, a longer (10 seconds?) progress bar, and then the image is gone. No there. Yes, I can still open it with Digikam or Gimp's File Open Recent, or with Gimp's document history, and maybe I need to just accept that. Could it be that the window containing your image is crashing while the rest of the UI is not crashing? Or is the window still there, with the proper file name and the image just gone? I do not know if 2.6 has single window mode (under the window menu) but if you were in that mode you might preserve your image (or crash the interface completely). Do you get the same results whether exporting to jpg, png, or other formats? If you are already working in single window mode try getting out of it and see if that makes a difference. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:50:01 -0500 From: mdmp...@gmail.com To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org; etter...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter And, Liam, I believe this is what you're asking. In 2.8, I save every few minutes with File Save. I see a brief less than a second progress bar but nothing changes. All is well. At some point later, the picture is (more or less, sort of) finished, and I want to send it somewhere. I go through four steps: File Save (just to be sure) and then File export. I confirm, a longer (10 seconds?) progress bar, and then the image is gone. No there. Yes, I can still open it with Digikam or Gimp's File Open Recent, or with Gimp's document history, and maybe I need to just accept that. Could it be that the window containing your image is crashing while the rest of the UI is not crashing? Or is the window still there, with the proper file name and the image just gone? I do not know if 2.6 has single window mode (under the window menu) but if you were in that mode you might preserve your image (or crash the interface completely). Do you get the same results whether exporting to jpg, png, or other formats? If you are already working in single window mode try getting out of it and see if that makes a difference. If something is crashing internally then GIMP should quite visibly inform you about it. And (in my experience at least) GIMP is generally pretty hard to crash. Also, single-window mode was added in 2.8. GIMP 2.6 did not have it. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Can I offer my interpretation of this communication breakdown? Apologies to Liam for previously not replying to list. Helen opens myfile.jpg with gimp. She saves myfile.jpg and it becomes myfile.xcf. She can't see myfile.jpg any more to see what it looks like. She exports myfile.xcf to myfile.jpg and that's fine, the jpg is saved but it is not displayed. If the xcf had been saved, she is looking at the xcf. If the xcf had not been saved and she exported myfile.jpg to a jpg file, she is now looking at untitled.xcf. She can not see the jpg. I thought this was phrase was self evident but: myfile.jpg is no longer present in the title bar of the the window containing the image that used to be myfile.jpg. It is my understanding that she wants to see what myfile.jpg looks like. That is the file that she will be using in her work, not untitled.xcf and she wants to be sure it looks like she wants it to look. Liam's e-mail response was: Why not? Why can't she see it? Where is she looking? And why did it go away? She can't see it because the file name is no longer in the title bar of the window. She is apparently looking in the title bar of the image window--that off color strip that displays the file name of the image in the window. Why did it go away? As in, why did it change from 'myfile.jpg' to 'untitled.xcf?' That's the $10,000,000 dollar question. NB I have no problems with the current save/export features of gimp. I am not jumping into any flame wars but at the same time maybe someone could take the filters of that flame war off and take a second look at Helen's question. If I can understand it, I'm sure others can. Helen, open up an instance of windows explorer, put it in icon mode (extra large) and browse to where you saved your file--there's your jpg. If all you want to do is see it, click on it and it will open in your default image viewer. If you want to edit it, keep working on the file that is open in gimp (there's no need to open the exported file and it's probably better not to because exported files do not contain all of gimp's layers and effects). On 1/10/2014 4:26 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote: On Fri, 2014-01-10 at 15:19 -0500, Helen wrote: Ok, I'm trying, but this just doesn't make sense to me. You're saying I was never able to see my file after I save as to png or jpg, in prior versions of GIMP. Helen, I think what's going on here is a question of people using words differently, or more or less precisely. None of us can see files unless we take apart the computer, get out a microsocope, and look at the surface of the disk. No, I'm not being a smart-ass :-), what I mean is this: The only way we see a file normally is if some program or other shows it to us. So when you say a file disappears, or you can't see a file, please tell us where exactly you were seeing it before - on the deskop? In a gimp window? On the list of programs at the bottom of your screen? Then, which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? E.g. don't say, I saved it, say, In gimp 2.8, (1) choose file-quit (2) when the prompt appears, if you quit you will lose 20 hours of work, press save (3) now gimp is no longer displaying my file and has gone away. In gimp 2.6, (1) choose file-save (2) select a filename happyboy.jpg and press OK (3) press OK to save the file (4) GIMP is still displaying the file and the title of the window says happyboy.hpg In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp, as if you were telling someone else sitting at your desk how to operate the computer. Then say what you expected to see, what you actually saw, and what exactly was the difference. If it's a bug we's like to understand and fix it. if it's a problem with the manual, or a place where GIMP is harder to use than it could be, we'd like to know that too. I love your drawings, by the way. Liam ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 1/11/2014 2:10 PM, Richard wrote: Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:20:20 -0500 From: mdmp...@gmail.com To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter Can I offer my interpretation of this communication breakdown? Apologies to Liam for previously not replying to list. Helen opens myfile.jpg with gimp. She saves myfile.jpg and it becomes myfile.xcf. She can't see myfile.jpg any more to see what it looks like. She exports myfile.xcf to myfile.jpg and that's fine, the jpg is saved but it is not displayed. If the xcf had been saved, she is looking at the xcf. If the xcf had not been saved and she exported myfile.jpg to a jpg file, she is now looking at untitled.xcf. She can not see the jpg. I thought this was phrase was self evident but: myfile.jpg is no longer present in the title bar of the the window containing the image that used to be myfile.jpg. It is my understanding that she wants to see what myfile.jpg looks like. That is the file that she will be using in her work, not untitled.xcf and she wants to be sure it looks like she wants it to look. Liam's e-mail response was: Why not? Why can't she see it? Where is she looking? And why did it go away? She can't see it because the file name is no longer in the title bar of the window. She is apparently looking in the title bar of the image window--that off color strip that displays the file name of the image in the window. Why did it go away? As in, why did it change from 'myfile.jpg' to 'untitled.xcf?' That's the $10,000,000 dollar question. NB I have no problems with the current save/export features of gimp. I am not jumping into any flame wars but at the same time maybe someone could take the filters of that flame war off and take a second look at Helen's question. If I can understand it, I'm sure others can. Helen, open up an instance of windows explorer, put it in icon mode (extra large) and browse to where you saved your file--there's your jpg. If all you want to do is see it, click on it and it will open in your default image viewer. If you want to edit it, keep working on the file that is open in gimp (there's no need to open the exported file and it's probably better not to because exported files do not contain all of gimp's layers and effects). If this is about the text shown in the titlebar of the current image window I agree there might be something a little quirky here. Let's see...: 1 - Open any convenient JPG file. Note the title bar will read [filename-minus-extension] (imported). 2 - Export a copy of it somewhere convenient (temp.jpg or whatever). The titlebar changes to reflect the exported filename (again minus extension) and notes (exported) instead of (imported). When I export an imported jpg (without first saving it) the title bar changes from as you noted in step one to [UNTITLED]-1.0 (COLOR SPACE, N LAYER) XxY--GIMP where N is the number of layers and X and Y are the dimensions in pixels. I tested it in windows, I'll try again in Linux as there could be a difference 3 - Now save it (as an XCF). The titlebar now reads as filename.xcf. The exported or imported note disappears completely. 4 - Export it again. Since it's now linked to an XCF file, the titlebar shows the XCF file and this does not change to reflect the latest export. So to me it's clear that the display logic for the image window titlebar is something like: 1 - If there's an XCF file associated with the current image, display the XCF file name in the titlebar. 2 - Otherwise, if there is a non-XCF file associated with the current image, display the file name in the title bar, minus extension, with parentheses, and note if the image has been recently imported/exported. The import/export status does not reflect the image's clean/dirty state. I'm okay with how this works for the most part, but I do have one question - in case number two (known import/export file but no saved XCF) why does the titlebar NOT include the extension of the imported/exported filename? From my perspective, the active file hasn't been saved so there's no extension to put in the title bar. I assumed that I would get a warning upon closing gimp when I exported the jpg but did not save anything but I also didn't do anything to the file.Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Close. Not exactly but closer than anyone has understood so far. Mark said: Helen opens myfile.jpg with gimp. She saves myfile.jpg and it becomes myfile.xcf. She can't see myfile.jpg any more to see what it looks like I suppose that's true in some (trivial?) sense but doens't matter. I see the .xcf. She exports myfile.xcf to myfile.jpg and that's fine, the jpg is saved but it is not displayed. If the xcf had been saved, she is looking at the xcf. If the xcf had not been saved and she exported myfile.jpg to a jpg file, she is now looking at untitled.xcf. This is what the problem is. Well, I would never export a file that hasn't been first saved a xcf, but regardless of that, I don't see what I was working on.Mark I can't do what you said about windows, I have no computers that run windows but I assume what you are thinking is what i can do in digkam, and yes the file is there. But to continue working on it I have to open it again. She can't see it because the file name is no longer in the title bar of the window. She is apparently looking in the title bar of the image window--that off color strip that displays the file name of the image in the window. No, not looking at the title bar of the image window. Thre isn't one. It's gone. Although, yes, the file is on my computer. I posted a screenshot here http://helenofmarlowe.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/usinggimp/ yesterday showing what I see in gimp 2.6 after exporting. I'll post a screenshot of what I get in 2.8 after exporting. And, Liam, I believe this is what you're asking. In 2.8, I save every few minutes with File Save. I see a brief less than a second progress bar but nothing changes. All is well. At some point later, the picture is (more or less, sort of) finished, and I want to send it somewhere. I go through four steps: File Save (just to be sure) and then File export. I confirm, a longer (10 seconds?) progress bar, and then the image is gone. No there. Yes, I can still open it with Digikam or Gimp's File Open Recent, or with Gimp's document history, and maybe I need to just accept that. My old ubuntu laptop with 2.6 is very old and not suitable for real work, and I think that my SuSE 12 probably would not support the 2.6 gtk On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 8:20 AM, Mark Morin mdmp...@gmail.com wrote: Can I offer my interpretation of this communication breakdown? Apologies to Liam for previously not replying to list. Helen opens myfile.jpg with gimp. She saves myfile.jpg and it becomes myfile.xcf. She can't see myfile.jpg any more to see what it looks like. She exports myfile.xcf to myfile.jpg and that's fine, the jpg is saved but it is not displayed. If the xcf had been saved, she is looking at the xcf. If the xcf had not been saved and she exported myfile.jpg to a jpg file, she is now looking at untitled.xcf. She can not see the jpg. I thought this was phrase was self evident but: myfile.jpg is no longer present in the title bar of the the window containing the image that used to be myfile.jpg. It is my understanding that she wants to see what myfile.jpg looks like. That is the file that she will be using in her work, not untitled.xcf and she wants to be sure it looks like she wants it to look. Liam's e-mail response was: Why not? Why can't she see it? Where is she looking? And why did it go away? She can't see it because the file name is no longer in the title bar of the window. She is apparently looking in the title bar of the image window--that off color strip that displays the file name of the image in the window. Why did it go away? As in, why did it change from 'myfile.jpg' to 'untitled.xcf?' That's the $10,000,000 dollar question. NB I have no problems with the current save/export features of gimp. I am not jumping into any flame wars but at the same time maybe someone could take the filters of that flame war off and take a second look at Helen's question. If I can understand it, I'm sure others can. Helen, open up an instance of windows explorer, put it in icon mode (extra large) and browse to where you saved your file--there's your jpg. If all you want to do is see it, click on it and it will open in your default image viewer. If you want to edit it, keep working on the file that is open in gimp (there's no need to open the exported file and it's probably better not to because exported files do not contain all of gimp's layers and effects). On 1/10/2014 4:26 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote: On Fri, 2014-01-10 at 15:19 -0500, Helen wrote: Ok, I'm trying, but this just doesn't make sense to me. You're saying I was never able to see my file after I save as to png or jpg, in prior versions of GIMP. Helen, I think what's going on here is a question of people using words differently, or more or less precisely. None of us can see files unless we take apart the computer, get out a microsocope, and look at the surface of the disk. No, I'm not being a smart-ass :-), what I
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Sat, 2014-01-11 at 15:54 -0500, Helen wrote: [...] And, Liam, I believe this is what you're asking. In 2.8, I save every few minutes with File Save. I see a brief less than a second progress bar but nothing changes. All is well. At some point later, the picture is (more or less, sort of) finished, and I want to send it somewhere. I go through four steps: File Save (just to be sure) and then File export. I confirm, a longer (10 seconds?) progress bar, and then the image is gone. OK, so I think what you are saying is the preview image from JPEG export is gone. If so, yes, that's true. What happens with 2.8 is that the preview opens in a new window which is closed when the export is finished. What happened in earlier versions was that an extra layer was added temporarily on top of the open image, and then that preview layer was deleted when the save finished. The new window is very disruptive if you have several GIMP images open, because GIMP isn't (today) smart enough to remember which one you were saving, and it goes back to some other image window most of the time. But the image in memory is still open in GIMP, just as with earlier versions, and the JPEG preview image is gne, just as it went away with previous versions. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Helen Please don't give up. It would be helpful if you would take screen dumps to illustrate the various stages of what you are doing, and where it goes wrong, then we will have much more of a chance to understand the problem. Geoff Smith London -- View this message in context: http://gimp.1065349.n5.nabble.com/gimp-users-matter-tp41538p41577.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 10 January 2014 00:43, Helen etter...@gmail.com wrote: yes, thank you for that, but I donw't want to to import it as a new gimp image. I want to still be able to see my jpg file. This really is not about the (slight in my view) inconvenience of another keystroke. It's about not being able, regardless of how many keystrokes, to see my file after it's exported. I think I will have to give up because I can't seem to find the right words to make anyone understand. Let's try to rephrase again: You never before in GIMP could see your jpg file after it was written to disk, unless you performed a file-revert right after you saved to JPG in versions prior to GIMP 2.8; The data you kept seeing on GIMP, with the attached name of the jpg file was the data as it was in GIMP memory, prior to writing the file - just as it happens in GIMP 2.8. Therefore, you are just complaining that you could fool yourself before - and current GIMP does not allow you to be tricked into thinking the image you are seeing is exactly what is on the jpg file anymore. js -- On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno gwid...@mpc.com.br wrote: In time: In one of your previous messages, you say you loose a lot of time having to re-open the exported images to check them - Maybe you haven't noticed that exported images are listed in the recent files just as saved ones, and that the ctrl + 1 keyboard shortcut will import, as a new gimp image, any just exported message in seconds? (And this way you will actually see the image as represented in that file, on disk). So, maybe this will fix your perceived workflow from previous versions. js -- -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Ok, I'm trying, but this just doesn't make sense to me. You're saying I was never able to see my file after I save as to png or jpg, in prior versions of GIMP. I don't think anyone here is deliberately giving out bad information, but I just don't understand this. I still have GIMP 2.6 on a very old Think-Pad laptop running ubuntu. I can not only see the file after I save as but I can also edit it. Here is a screenshot. I opened gimp create new made one blend stroke, then Saved As jpg. I do see the file. Then I went to Edit -- and took a screenshot showing that I am able to edit that file. Not just see, but see it and edit it. I can't do this in gimp 2.8 because that ability has been removed. Click on the screenshot to enlarge it. http://helenofmarlowe.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/usinggimp/ You can see that it has been saved as a jpg and is still available. So, I'm sorry and I apologize for being tiresome, but I just don'tunderstand what you are saying. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:19 AM, Joao S. O. Bueno gwid...@mpc.com.brwrote: On 10 January 2014 00:43, Helen etter...@gmail.com wrote: yes, thank you for that, but I donw't want to to import it as a new gimp image. I want to still be able to see my jpg file. This really is not about the (slight in my view) inconvenience of another keystroke. It's about not being able, regardless of how many keystrokes, to see my file after it's exported. I think I will have to give up because I can't seem to find the right words to make anyone understand. Let's try to rephrase again: You never before in GIMP could see your jpg file after it was written to disk, unless you performed a file-revert right after you saved to JPG in versions prior to GIMP 2.8; The data you kept seeing on GIMP, with the attached name of the jpg file was the data as it was in GIMP memory, prior to writing the file - just as it happens in GIMP 2.8. Therefore, you are just complaining that you could fool yourself before - and current GIMP does not allow you to be tricked into thinking the image you are seeing is exactly what is on the jpg file anymore. js -- On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno gwid...@mpc.com.br wrote: In time: In one of your previous messages, you say you loose a lot of time having to re-open the exported images to check them - Maybe you haven't noticed that exported images are listed in the recent files just as saved ones, and that the ctrl + 1 keyboard shortcut will import, as a new gimp image, any just exported message in seconds? (And this way you will actually see the image as represented in that file, on disk). So, maybe this will fix your perceived workflow from previous versions. js -- -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Fri, 2014-01-10 at 15:19 -0500, Helen wrote: Ok, I'm trying, but this just doesn't make sense to me. You're saying I was never able to see my file after I save as to png or jpg, in prior versions of GIMP. Helen, I think what's going on here is a question of people using words differently, or more or less precisely. None of us can see files unless we take apart the computer, get out a microsocope, and look at the surface of the disk. No, I'm not being a smart-ass :-), what I mean is this: The only way we see a file normally is if some program or other shows it to us. So when you say a file disappears, or you can't see a file, please tell us where exactly you were seeing it before - on the deskop? In a gimp window? On the list of programs at the bottom of your screen? Then, which buttons exactly did you press in GIMP so that you no longer saw it? E.g. don't say, I saved it, say, In gimp 2.8, (1) choose file-quit (2) when the prompt appears, if you quit you will lose 20 hours of work, press save (3) now gimp is no longer displaying my file and has gone away. In gimp 2.6, (1) choose file-save (2) select a filename happyboy.jpg and press OK (3) press OK to save the file (4) GIMP is still displaying the file and the title of the window says happyboy.hpg In other words tell us exactly what you're doing, in both versions of gimp, as if you were telling someone else sitting at your desk how to operate the computer. Then say what you expected to see, what you actually saw, and what exactly was the difference. If it's a bug we's like to understand and fix it. if it's a problem with the manual, or a place where GIMP is harder to use than it could be, we'd like to know that too. I love your drawings, by the way. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Hi Helen. Helen (etter...@gmail.com) wrote: I still have GIMP 2.6 on a very old Think-Pad laptop running ubuntu. I can not only see the file after I save as but I can also edit it. Here is a screenshot. I opened gimp create new made one blend stroke, then Saved As jpg. I do see the file. Please try the following with your Gimp 2.6: - create a new image with white background - do a black stroke with a hard edged brush - do a pure red stroke with a hard edged brush - Start the save as JPEG process to a new file - in the jpeg options dialog choose the show preview - now really crank down the quality to an extreme low (single digit number). - You'll see artefacts appearing in the image window due to the lossy jpeg compression. - Save the image When you're done with saving, the artefacts disappear again, because gimp retained the original state of the image. It does not lose the original data when saving to JPEG. What you are seeing after completing the save-to-jpeg in gimp 2.6 is *not* the content of the jpeg file. It is the content that in the image before you saved it to a jpeg. You can easily verify this: Open the file you just saved again and you will see the artefacts, because they are part of the actual jpeg file on the harddrive. This is obviously not the same image you've been seeing after saving to a jpeg. I hope this clears up some of the confusion. Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
09 янв. 2014 г. 19:15 пользователь lisanet for...@gimpusers.com написал: Just as a proof of concept I've patched all of my current builds (since 2.8.6) and provided such a switch. I was not aware of that, thanks for telling. And that's coming from someone who's been developing software for 40 years? Sorry, but in my eyes you've just lost all your credibility. hhhmm, well, IMO he did _not_ loose his credibility because I did implement such a feature and maintain it since then. I'm afraid you are misquoting here. The credibility topic (where you qutoed) wasn't brought up because of the switch. Finally, I hope I don't get banned from the webpage, because of this right-out-of-hell-patch I did, and that I still can contribute code and patches to GIMP. People don't get banned for patches here :) Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Helen wrote: Several gimp users (including me) have said that the problem is that the file disappears. It is gone. It is no longer on the screen. I don't know how to say this more clearly. Step-by-step explanation of what you do and what happens usually helps. I vaguely recall that I tried following the previous discussion on that and gave up because there was no such step-by-step explanation. Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Helen, id id as much as dig messages of you from last June to understand what you are talking about and your context. And it seems to me that you fundamentantaly misunderstood one or more things. You are complaining that now when you export to JPG the file disapears from your screen. After reading your messages, I believe you are saying this because since the image that is kept open in GIMP is not now named myfile.jpg the JPG file generated in disk might not correspond to the file you see on screen. Actually, this behavior had not changed between GIMP 2.6 and GIMP 2.8 - the image you have open in GIMP after exporting it to JPG or some other format in GIMP 2.8, is the exactly same as you had after exporting it to the same formats in GIMP 2.6, but for the name shown on the Window title. (And I am using the verb exporting to the formats in gimp 2.6 on purpose, the application did tell you it was exporting the file in an annoying pop-up dialog, even though it was accessed through the Save menu option) The image on screen is, and always has been as different from the file on disk in GIMP 2.8 as in previous versions: the formats you mention: jpg, png, gif and others, are always one single layer, varying degree of support to transparency, and sometimes even with pixel infomation degradation (in the case of JPG) So, if you used to rely on what you saw on screem after saving as JPG on GIMP 2.6 before sending the file to someone (in terms of image quality, or whatever), you were doing it wrong before. You can check the code if you want. All file exporting plug-ins (i.e., the code that write out image formats that are not .xcf, and they have always been called exporting plug-ins) start by making a copy of the image one is editing, and flattening, or merging visible layers on this copy, before actually writting any bytes to disk. Now, it looks like you are a power user, and long time participant on this list - I'd like to invite you to participate on constructive terms to the project, and not keep crying about a behavior that, it seems, may have saved you from sending incorrect data more than once. (since now you actually check the JPG file generated on disk before sending it to production, if that is indeed needed in your use cases) js -- On 8 January 2014 14:51, Helen etter...@gmail.com wrote: This feature imposes no hardship on any user and occasionally prevents lost work. This is so obviously wrong that I wonder whether different gimp users are experiencing the same behavior. If this were a matter of receiving an unnecessary warning, then I would agree that the passion is misplaced. This is not about whether or not one wants to see a warning. Several gimp users (including me) have said that the problem is that the file disappears. It is gone. It is no longer on the screen. I don't know how to say this more clearly. I am not a casual gimp user. I use the advanced features. The disappearance of the file is what is causing the problem, not the (useful or unuseful) warning. -- Helen Etters using Linux, suse12.3 ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/08/2014 11:51 AM, Helen wrote: This feature imposes no hardship on any user and occasionally prevents lost work. This is so obviously wrong that I wonder whether different gimp users are experiencing the same behavior. If this were a matter of receiving an unnecessary warning, then I would agree that the passion is misplaced. This is not about whether or not one wants to see a warning. Several gimp users (including me) have said that the problem is that the file disappears. It is gone. It is no longer on the screen. I don't know how to say this more clearly. I am not a casual gimp user. I use the advanced features. The disappearance of the file is what is causing the problem, not the (useful or unuseful) warning. Hey Helen, THAT sounds like a bug in the software to me. I never saw anything like it, in any GIMP version on any operating system. This is definitely not what the save vs. export (non)issue is about, it's something else entirely. Right now I don't have the time to dig into the problem at all, but if you can get the GIMP to do this bad thing on demand, it has the makings of a formal bug report. :o/ Steve ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Alexandre wrote, On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Helen wrote: Several gimp users (including me) have said that the problem is that the file disappears. It is gone. It is no longer on the screen. I don't know how to say this more clearly. Step-by-step explanation of what you do and what happens usually helps. I vaguely recall that I tried following the previous discussion on that and gave up because there was no such step-by-step explanation. Alexandre Yes. Back in June 2013. This seems to be Helen's initial description of the disappears problem: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list/2013-June/msg00145.html Thread A sad case of regression ? There were several detailed replies, but no real indication from Helen if we interpreted her question properly or if she understood our replies. -- Bob Long ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 20:13:00 +0100 Wolfgang Hugemann a...@hugemann.de wrote: Perhaps it would suffice to turn special warning messages permanently off, something like a checkbox in the warning dialog: Don't show this message again. This is rather common in modern programs and would make live somewhat easier. I already re-defined CTRL-S to export, but still I have to click the warning message each time when I close an image. Hi Wolfgang, http://www.shallowsky.com/software/gimp-save/ This plugin provides a new 'file command' for the GIMP, which exports, and also marks the file as clean, so the confirmation does not appear anymore. It was posted by Akkana on this list a long time ago. John ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/07/2014 09:45 AM, John Coppens wrote: http://www.shallowsky.com/software/gimp-save/ This plugin provides a new 'file command' for the GIMP, which exports, and also marks the file as clean, so the confirmation does not appear anymore. It was posted by Akkana on this list a long time ago. John Ta freakin' daa. I don't even know if gimp-user has a FAQ but if it dones not, it needs one, and this should be item one. Then folks can say, Oh, that's not a problem or issue. Go read the FAQ. ;o) Steve ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Aww, then what would we have to argue about? ;-) On 1/7/2014 3:46 PM, Steve Kinney wrote: On 01/07/2014 09:45 AM, John Coppens wrote: http://www.shallowsky.com/software/gimp-save/ This plugin provides a new 'file command' for the GIMP, which exports, and also marks the file as clean, so the confirmation does not appear anymore. It was posted by Akkana on this list a long time ago. John Ta freakin' daa. I don't even know if gimp-user has a FAQ but if it dones not, it needs one, and this should be item one. Then folks can say, Oh, that's not a problem or issue. Go read the FAQ. ;o) Steve ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/07/2014 05:47 PM, John Meyer wrote: Aww, then what would we have to argue about? ;-) There will always be users who think the GIMP is too complicated or just too hard. And trolls gonna troll no matter what. Some few people think those mean old big shots who help maintain the GIMP and its associated community are a gang of elitists who don't care what users want, need or think. The fact that trolls are given more or less free rein here on gimp-user tends to prove the opposite: The big shots in the GIMP ecosystem would rather let morons rant, than err on the side of censorship and maybe, just possibly, accidentally prevent some useful discussion or information from making the rounds. That's more patience and forbearance than I would have, and I'm a Quaker. :o) Steve ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Steve Kinney (ad...@pilobilus.net) wrote: The big shots in the GIMP ecosystem would rather let morons rant, than err on the side of censorship and maybe, just possibly, accidentally prevent some useful discussion or information from making the rounds. Thanks for viewing us in that way. However, I think it must be said that we actually *do* silence some people on this list by unsubscribing and/or blocking them. This usually happens based on a save/export discussion where people keep repeating the same false statements, insults and bogus facts. We indeed try to not be too quick with the trigger, but some people just seem to ask for it. Sometimes apparently even multiple times with different mail addresses... Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/07/2014 07:49 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote: On 08.01.2014 00:43, Simon Budig wrote: We indeed try to not be too quick with the trigger, but some people just seem to ask for it. Some people have asked us to be a bit^wlot quicker, though. Mostly because they use this mailing list as a useful resource for GIMP usage questions and hints and want it to be kept this way. Ah-yup. But as long as the nonsense can pass for idiocy, it passes. On the whole I appreciate this - nobody makes me read the threads in question, thank God. :o) ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 11:07:55 -0700 John Meyer johnme...@pueblocomputing.com wrote: Infrequent user of GIMP, but I'll ask: is there no way to map the control keys differently? Yes you can reassign the control keys. But that doesn't completely solve the inconvenience. Ypu still have to confirm losing info on exiting GIMP. There is also a plugin (from Akasha?) which is slightly better than reassigning, but introduced another problem (I seem to recall). John ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Am 04.01.2014 14:40, schrieb Daniel Hauck: I think my favorite argument against user preference options is that it's too hard and complicated. GiMP is already a masterpiece of complexity and effectiveness. Writing in an additional user preference is somehow too much though. Perhaps it would suffice to turn special warning messages permanently off, something like a checkbox in the warning dialog: Don't show this message again. This is rather common in modern programs and would make live somewhat easier. I already re-defined CTRL-S to export, but still I have to click the warning message each time when I close an image. Wolfgang Hugemann ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/03/2014 01:51 PM, akovia wrote: On 01/03/2014 05:21 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote: It's lucky that GIMP now works like so many other programs - inkscape, You're wrong: gimp editor works differently. All editors, free or not free, save work in a normal way, except gimp. This misinformation is getting boring. I really do admire the passion people have for this cause, Yes, me too. It means these people love Gimp and want improve it but the amount of time spent arguing their case on the mailing list could have been put to developing their own fork to make gimp work the way they like. *Creating pictures* is a job, developing a software to create these picture is a different job. That's why users feedback is very important. -- Q ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
qelvin5500 (qelvin5...@gmail.com) wrote: *Creating pictures* is a job, developing a software to create these picture is a different job. Developing GIMP is a Hobby, not a Job. Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
I also find GIMP's save-as behaviour very strange, but I have understood that there is no use in longer discussion about that. For the future I have two suggestions: 1) Allow for more user preferences. Why not leave the choice to me whether I would like to be warned when saving in a lossy format? The discussion has at least pointed out that workflows are a very personal matter. I have so far never saved any file in Gimp's native format. 2) Nowadays it is rather easy to organise a questionaire via the Internet. The developers could thus find out about users' expectations and preferences more easily then in former times. Well, I guess this approach also has its shortcomings, but one could try. Didn't the Open Office developers proceed this way lately? Wolfgang Hugemann ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
It does not matter what anyone else thinks. That part should be clear. It doesn't matter what people want. That much should be clear. What matters is the perception of the perception of the program in question. (Yes, I said perception twice like that) Some people think a thing needs to be more proper (as defined by that person) and/or more professional (as defined by that person). The only thing that matters is the perception of that person. Nothing else and no one else matters. Also, to change and backtrack now? After all this time of people begging and complaining? It would just be admitting someone is wrong and it would be unseemly now to back down in any way. Not after all this. I think my favorite argument against user preference options is that it's too hard and complicated. GiMP is already a masterpiece of complexity and effectiveness. Writing in an additional user preference is somehow too much though. On 01/04/2014 08:32 AM, Wolfgang Hugemann wrote: I also find GIMP's save-as behaviour very strange, but I have understood that there is no use in longer discussion about that. For the future I have two suggestions: 1) Allow for more user preferences. Why not leave the choice to me whether I would like to be warned when saving in a lossy format? The discussion has at least pointed out that workflows are a very personal matter. I have so far never saved any file in Gimp's native format. 2) Nowadays it is rather easy to organise a questionaire via the Internet. The developers could thus find out about users' expectations and preferences more easily then in former times. Well, I guess this approach also has its shortcomings, but one could try. Didn't the Open Office developers proceed this way lately? Wolfgang Hugemann ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org From: j...@cjsa.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 22:14:29 + Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net writes: Whether Ctrl-S/Ctrl-E were swapped in the process is a matter for discussion (I wouldn't care if they stayed as they currently are in 2.8) but suppressing the subsequent save to xcf check would be the really important improvement. I know I've mentioned it before but an option to suppress this warning for images that are (1) unchanged since last export and (2) never saved to an XCF file could be useful for the export/overwrite-based workflows because as it stands you can't make a final export when you close the image - you can only save as XCF or discard everything. Alternatively, if the closing Save Changes? box was changed to have both Save and Export commands this could also work. Oh, and with 2.8.10's behavior change on what happens when you hit the Close button in SWM, it's also worth mentioning that you DON'T get an option to save your changes at all - you get a warning that unsaved changes will be lost, but you have no access to the Save command from that dialog. Even if you only have one image open. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Sat, 2014-01-04 at 09:26 -0800, Richard wrote: To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org From: j...@cjsa.com Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 22:14:29 + Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net writes: Whether Ctrl-S/Ctrl-E were swapped in the process is a matter for discussion (I wouldn't care if they stayed as they currently are in 2.8) but suppressing the subsequent save to xcf check would be the really important improvement. I didn't write that, Richard. Please be careful when quoting. It isn't right either - ^S and ^E were not swapped and I don't want the save to xcf check removed, although I _would_ like it to be smarter. That's partly a matter of writing a patch. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/04/2014 04:17 AM, Simon Budig wrote: qelvin5500 (qelvin5...@gmail.com) wrote: *Creating pictures* is a job, developing a software to create these picture is a different job. Developing GIMP is a Hobby, not a Job. Bye, Simon Whether a job or a hobby, prioritizing effectively is probably *MOST* important. In this regard, voluminous postings that are distracting and *UNNECESSARY* is *ALWAYS* counterproductive. Any posting that starts I understand that the developers are --- is counterproductive. The notion that the marvelously effective GIMP developers were unaware of the discomfort this UI change would produce was gainsaid in earlier postings in this and related threads; I would encourage all those who are fans of GIMP and would like to have the ever-changing developer group get on with their priorities: please back off and let them be. I *WANT* CMYK; I *WANT* high-bit-depth; I *WANT* more robust undo history; I *WANT* more intuitive UI; I *WANT* a smoother work flow; I *WANT* - - - I will not mention what my priorities are, but I can understand that the large community of users is likely to have a large number of subgroups each of which would agree on a profoundly different set of priorities than many of the other subgroups. I am reminded of a comedian's remark some decades ago: I wish those people who can't communicate would SHUT UP ABOUT IT. -- Burnie PS - I apologize for distracting any members of the worldwide GIMP community who dislike being bothered by threads like these - please forgive. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Sorry i should have been more specific.. (and i know its not Gimp specific, just a fellow photographer looking to help a friend) I have some pictures taken on an Sony DSC-W510 digital camera, and they are/have become corrupted? the thumbnail shows up, in windows(win7) osx(10.6), debian 7.2 must be different as it shows the corruption up in thumbnail preview, but when viewing the full picture, it only shows up a corrupted view and this seems to be about 5 to 10 percent of the image coming down. The Exif data seems to be all present (all 3 os's), and the programs that i have tried, inc gimp/picasa/CS6 photoshop/serif photoplus, all have a corrupted image. I have tried stella recovery, jpeg doctor, hetman photo, jpegrec, jpeg-repair (im sure there was more)... and was just looking for somone who might have some knownlege. i have even downloaded an Hex editor, and well, started to look through the information, but it looks like a large amount of information to go through.. Ill try your suggestion Elle, just seen your email come through, i have debian powered up at the moment, so ill give it ago :) cheers Phil On 04/01/2014 19:54, Burnie West wrote: On 01/04/2014 04:17 AM, Simon Budig wrote: qelvin5500 (qelvin5...@gmail.com) wrote: *Creating pictures* is a job, developing a software to create these picture is a different job. Developing GIMP is a Hobby, not a Job. Bye, Simon Whether a job or a hobby, prioritizing effectively is probably *MOST* important. In this regard, voluminous postings that are distracting and *UNNECESSARY* is *ALWAYS* counterproductive. Any posting that starts I understand that the developers are --- is counterproductive. The notion that the marvelously effective GIMP developers were unaware of the discomfort this UI change would produce was gainsaid in earlier postings in this and related threads; I would encourage all those who are fans of GIMP and would like to have the ever-changing developer group get on with their priorities: please back off and let them be. I *WANT* CMYK; I *WANT* high-bit-depth; I *WANT* more robust undo history; I *WANT* more intuitive UI; I *WANT* a smoother work flow; I *WANT* - - - I will not mention what my priorities are, but I can understand that the large community of users is likely to have a large number of subgroups each of which would agree on a profoundly different set of priorities than many of the other subgroups. I am reminded of a comedian's remark some decades ago: I wish those people who can't communicate would SHUT UP ABOUT IT. -- Burnie PS - I apologize for distracting any members of the worldwide GIMP community who dislike being bothered by threads like these - please forgive. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/04/2014 03:09 PM, Phil wrote: I have some pictures taken on an Sony DSC-W510 digital camera, and they are/have become corrupted? the thumbnail shows up, in windows(win7) osx(10.6), debian 7.2 must be different as it shows the corruption up in thumbnail preview, but when viewing the full picture, it only shows up a corrupted view and this seems to be about 5 to 10 percent of the image coming down. That's not a good sign! Is it possible that the camera card to which the files were saved has some issues? Or perhaps the files were corrupted during the save process even though the camera card is good? I've had this happen once or twice, but not to a whole bunch of images. While you are at the command line, try converting the image to another file format: convert image.jpg image.png If that doesn't produce a readable image, probably the image really is corrupted. Often the embedded thumb(s) is/are quite large and better than nothing. If the whole file can't be retrieved, if you want I can dig up the exiftool command for extracting the thumb. Elle ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
You know, when you put it that way, I have to concede your point. There are some things in future-GiMP which are more important than a UI change. (Though I dare say few as trivial as the UI change under discussion.) But we, the users, aren't asking for something new. We're asking for something that was there but is no longer. On 01/04/2014 02:54 PM, Burnie West wrote: On 01/04/2014 04:17 AM, Simon Budig wrote: qelvin5500 (qelvin5...@gmail.com) wrote: *Creating pictures* is a job, developing a software to create these picture is a different job. Developing GIMP is a Hobby, not a Job. Bye, Simon Whether a job or a hobby, prioritizing effectively is probably *MOST* important. In this regard, voluminous postings that are distracting and *UNNECESSARY* is *ALWAYS* counterproductive. Any posting that starts I understand that the developers are --- is counterproductive. The notion that the marvelously effective GIMP developers were unaware of the discomfort this UI change would produce was gainsaid in earlier postings in this and related threads; I would encourage all those who are fans of GIMP and would like to have the ever-changing developer group get on with their priorities: please back off and let them be. I *WANT* CMYK; I *WANT* high-bit-depth; I *WANT* more robust undo history; I *WANT* more intuitive UI; I *WANT* a smoother work flow; I *WANT* - - - I will not mention what my priorities are, but I can understand that the large community of users is likely to have a large number of subgroups each of which would agree on a profoundly different set of priorities than many of the other subgroups. I am reminded of a comedian's remark some decades ago: I wish those people who can't communicate would SHUT UP ABOUT IT. -- Burnie PS - I apologize for distracting any members of the worldwide GIMP community who dislike being bothered by threads like these - please forgive. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Appears you've accidentally hijacked a dispute thread - - - On 01/04/2014 12:31 PM, Elle Stone wrote: On 01/04/2014 03:09 PM, Phil wrote: I have some pictures taken on an Sony DSC-W510 digital camera, and they are/have become corrupted? the thumbnail shows up, in windows(win7) osx(10.6), debian 7.2 must be different as it shows the corruption up in thumbnail preview, but when viewing the full picture, it only shows up a corrupted view and this seems to be about 5 to 10 percent of the image coming down. That's not a good sign! Is it possible that the camera card to which the files were saved has some issues? Or perhaps the files were corrupted during the save process even though the camera card is good? I've had this happen once or twice, but not to a whole bunch of images. While you are at the command line, try converting the image to another file format: convert image.jpg image.png If that doesn't produce a readable image, probably the image really is corrupted. Often the embedded thumb(s) is/are quite large and better than nothing. If the whole file can't be retrieved, if you want I can dig up the exiftool command for extracting the thumb. Elle ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Daniel Hauck wrote: No, I don't think so because this isn't a democratic situation. What you think rules out over what many others independently think and agree upon. But let me ask you this and I'll shut up. Do you use a Dvorak keyboard or a Querty? And why? It's a loaded question, of course. If you answer Dvorak, you win. But if you answer Querty, you lose because the world knows querty was inefficient by design and yet we continue to use it for the very reasons I have stated and that you implicitly and in practice agree. Did I even suggest I would like playing any games with you? (Once again, the answer is no.) I do appreciate your insistence, but sadly it's misplaced. I'm quite certain that you could find a better use for your time than trying to win a war that you can't win, and that, as a matter of fact, was never a war in the first place. Although some people clearly treat it as such. Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/03/2014 05:21 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote: It's lucky that GIMP now works like so many other programs - inkscape, open office, blender, spreadsheet programs, ... You're wrong: gimp editor works differently. All editors, free or not free, save work in a normal way, except gimp. This misinformation is getting boring. Q ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 2 January 2014 23:20, Daniel Hauck dan...@yacg.com wrote: If I intended it only for you, why would you be so rude as to publish something I wrote only to you in a public list? Sorry. It was a SNAFU due to the nature of the GUI of this webmail client. on which I have no control over, and overall, I can't write to their developers complaining that the UI hides the recipients unless the to field is focused. And does not support short ut reassignment. And can't be forked with my own tweaks. Still, I did err, and am not blaming the developers of gmail for that - as I can see this behavior do make the UI more productive for most cases. Now, since you are still at that, I wonder, why hadn't you replied to my question: What does MS word tells you when you open a Plain Text file, change it, and try to save back over the original file? On 01/02/2014 08:04 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: On 2 January 2014 19:52, Daniel Hauck dan...@yacg.com wrote: I think you're missing the point. MOST users, just as with almost all other software, do not use the advanced features of advanced software. I see it all the time. I see people load up MS Word to check the spelling of something else (copy and paste) of programs which do not support that feature. And this amazing gold standard professional software like Adobe Photoshop and MS Word and lots more allow people to save in formats which are lossy. ok. Stop there. open a txt file with ms word.Not a .doc, docx, odt. click file-save. Read what it tells you. I rest the case. There is nothing advanced in preserving the editing information of one's project. (Now, I actually had not used ms word since, like, 1997. But I suppose it won't overwrite your txt file without telling you a thing or two about the file format you are using. Libreoffice won't. ) BTW, did you intend this rather unconstructive message just for me, or for the whole list? The GIMP lists are configured in a way the default reply goes only to the sender. js -- ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014, at 07:28 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 4:17 PM, qelvin5500 wrote: On 01/03/2014 05:21 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote: It's lucky that GIMP now works like so many other programs - inkscape, open office, blender, spreadsheet programs, ... You're wrong: gimp editor works differently. All editors, free or not free, save work in a normal way, except gimp. This misinformation is getting boring. I really do admire the passion people have for this cause, but the amount of time spent arguing their case on the mailing list could have been put to developing their own fork to make gimp work the way they like. If it's as they say, it should be easy to put all the like minded people together to develop it. That way the world won't end, and the devs here can get back to work. -- akovia -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Daniel Hauck (dan...@yacg.com) wrote: Nice spin. What spin? You claimed that querty (you probbly mean qwerty btw.) was designed to be inefficient, when in fact it was designed for a faster typing speed. Who is doing the spin here? Sure, without the cumbersome mechanics there are better and faster methods, but that does not change the intent behind the design of QWERTY. What was your point again? Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Simon Budig wrote: Daniel Hauck wrote: Nice spin. What spin? You claimed that querty (you probbly mean qwerty btw.) was designed to be inefficient, when in fact it was designed for a faster typing speed. Who is doing the spin here? People behind the Wikipedia's QWERTY conspiracy. Isn't that obvious? :) Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 1/2/2014 4:17 PM, akovia wrote: I've watched these threads come an go and I must be missing something. When this new behavior first arrived, like everyone else I was used to the old way and having to learn a new work-flow is never fun. Regardless I just figured this was the way it was going to be so I adopted it immediately. At this point I can't even remember exactly how things used to work as the new way is now ingrained in my work-flow. What is so hard about Ctrl+o to overwrite, or Shift-Ctrl+e to export? If we could funnel all the wasted energy spent trying to buck this new feature, we could be up to gimp 3.0 by now. I've been a dog with a bone on many issues, but the reasoning behind this decision was a sound one and would rather put my energies into something more productive. This just isn't that big of a deal. The sooner you accept it, the sooner you will forget what it was you were so worried about. Infrequent user of GIMP, but I'll ask: is there no way to map the control keys differently? ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 23:04:50 -0200 From: gwid...@mpc.com.br To: dan...@yacg.com; gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter ok. Stop there. open a txt file with ms word.Not a .doc, docx, odt. click file-save. Read what it tells you. I rest the case. There is nothing advanced in preserving the editing information of one's project. Ok. Stop there. Now repeat the same steps substituting RTF for TXT. Sure, RTF supports many of THE most commonly used text editing features (bold/italic/underline, tabs/indents/spacing, font face/size/color) but it doesn't support many advanced Word features (widow/orphan control, footnotes, column layouts, etc.) and if you are relying on a document that involves those features will Word inform you that your target file format is not sufficient for what you are trying to save? Or will it just silently assume your document doesn't care about those features and save what it can, effectively discarding those features when you close out your session? -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/02/2014 08:48 PM, Daniel Hauck wrote: Yes and I'm pretty sure most people are getting what I'm driving at -- standards of function, design and behavior. I never read more than one or two messages per 100 in Save Vs. Export Blows Goats (I Have Proof) threads, but if what you are driving at is standards of function, design and behavior, I'm all for that! As a quality assurance and production design geek, Standards is kind of my thing. The GIMP has been the default major photo editor for the *NIX ecosystem for so long that some of its GUI components are widely used across numerous Linux distributions. The GIMP is a standard setting project and product. I think this might explain it better than I can, do give a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpIQN8Cnea8 :o) Steve ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
03 янв. 2014 г. 22:55 пользователь Steve Kinney ad...@pilobilus.net написал: On 01/02/2014 08:48 PM, Daniel Hauck wrote: Yes and I'm pretty sure most people are getting what I'm driving at -- standards of function, design and behavior. I never read more than one or two messages per 100 in Save Vs. Export Blows Goats (I Have Proof) threads, but if what you are driving at is standards of function, design and behavior, I'm all for that! Are you all for that _what_? Did you study how other software of this kind works? I'm specifically referring to apps that have a concept of layering data and/or mixing different kinds of data (bitmaps, vector shapes, video, sound, etc.). GIMP falls under that category and foĺlows the convention that only project data should be saved, and delivery data should be exported. There are some exceptions, of course, but it doesn't mean that GIMP should follow those. We have discussed this way too many times, and if you realy only read 2 mails out of each 100 in these threads, my suggestion would be to actually study the subject closer first, and going all for that later when you can really have an informed opinion. Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 10:16:07 -0800, Richard wrote: Sure, RTF supports many of THE most commonly used text editing features (bold/italic/underline, tabs/indents/spacing, font face/size/color) but it doesn't support many advanced Word features (widow/orphan control, footnotes, column layouts, etc.) and if you are relying on a document that involves those features will Word inform you that your target file format is not sufficient for what you are trying to save? Or will it just silently assume your document doesn't care about those features and save what it can, effectively discarding those features when you close out your session? You're actually wrong - RTF supports at least everything that Word 2003 supports - including styles, paragraph settings, columns, footnotes etc. You will get a warning if you try to save as OpenDocument though (and at least in Word 2013, the document layout may change to reflect that). -- Jernej Simončič http://eternallybored.org/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org From: jernej|s-gm...@eternallybored.org Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 21:41:57 +0100 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 10:16:07 -0800, Richard wrote: Sure, RTF supports many of THE most commonly used text editing features (bold/italic/underline, tabs/indents/spacing, font face/size/color) but it doesn't support many advanced Word features (widow/orphan control, footnotes, column layouts, etc.) and if you are relying on a document that involves those features will Word inform you that your target file format is not sufficient for what you are trying to save? Or will it just silently assume your document doesn't care about those features and save what it can, effectively discarding those features when you close out your session? You're actually wrong - RTF supports at least everything that Word 2003 supports - including styles, paragraph settings, columns, footnotes etc. You will get a warning if you try to save as OpenDocument though (and at least in Word 2013, the document layout may change to reflect that). *shrugs* Okay, it has been awhile since I looked at the RTF official, beyond that I am only aware of what gets exposed through the editor. And I don't use RTF for anything complex so I've almost never actually bumped into its limitations. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net writes: Constructive suggestions about how to make a more coherent workflow in GIMP are welcomed. Whining about change is not so welcome. Liam: I will take you up on your offer to make a constructive GUI suggestion. I fully understand the arguments for the workflow change that was made to GIMP 2.8. What I think was lost in the process was a recognition that there are two different primary workflows for two different groups of users. The new Save/Export distinction makes great sense for professionals working primarily in the xcf format. I do this a great deal myself and can embrace this workflow strategy. What seems to be unjustifyably dismissed by the development team is that there is a very large segment of the user base that operates by a different workflow altogether. These people use/save in the xcf format rarely or never, but use GIMP to do wholesale editing of png/jpg photos with a completely different purpose in mind from the pros. I myself also engage in this type of activity from time to time. The arguments about lossey jpg saves or unsaved worksteps in the editing process are typically understood by this group, but of little to no concern. And if switching from Ctrl-S to to Ctrl-E was the only change in behavior required, then I believe that there would be very few serious complaints. The real problem occurs in the exiting from the workflow after an export. The forced save query really slows down this particular workflow process. For this group of people, it is a repetitive bludgeoning by something that is absolutely unwanted. When attempting to work in this mode, I can attest that it is very annoying. There is no right/wrong or better/worse workflow process -- only a preferred one for the type of work currently at hand. Why can't the development team recognize and acknowledge this instead of berating those who do not find the pro solution the best one for their needs? My simple solution is to provide a workflow switch in the preferences that flips back and forth between the two workflow paradigms. Let GIMP default out of the box to the new pro mode, but allow users to select the alternate workflow model if they choose. I would include some sort of icon somewhere (status area?) that indicated visually that you were operating using the alternate workflow method. A shortcut key could allow users to quickly toggle back and forth between the two modes. Whether Ctrl-S/Ctrl-E were swapped in the process is a matter for discussion (I wouldn't care if they stayed as they currently are in 2.8) but suppressing the subsequent save to xcf check would be the really important improvement. In this alternate mode, the old behavior of recognizing the file extension should be preserved, allowing users to save to xcf format anytime they desired. However, if Save is reserved for xcf and Export is still required to save the current png/jpg file, then this extension parsing might not be required. In other words, I believe there is some variability in how this could be implemented that would still go a long way in addressing most users' concerns. Getting input from other users would be helpful here. If something along these lines were done, the pros would never see any change to their use of GIMP, while countless users would recognize that the development team was actually listening and responding to their concerns instead of rejecting them out of hand. In his blog post on GIMP 2.8: understanding UI changes, Alexandre Prokoudine addresses the suggestion above: -- Why Couldn't They Just Add A Checkbox? Isn't it possible to just add a checkbox in the configuration dialog somewhere? It is. OK, good. Would it be a good idea? No, it would be horrible. Let's have some reasoning again. 1. In general, options complicate code and make it less manageable. Every option virtually increases amount of cases where application can fail. A snowball can soon become an avalanche. Seriously? This is an argument against implementing a feature that is extremely useful to many users? Especially one a trivial as this? One that already has existed for years in the product? I think this snowball is just a snowball. 2. Certain planned changes such as better native CMYK support presume that color separation is done a special mode for exporting. Maintaining a related behavior switch, when you have such a feature, would be hell. Hell? Really? I've been developing software for 40 years. Is this a realistic statement or hyperbole? Again, we're talking about saving/exporting standard png/jpg files while bypassing the xcf save. Regardless of what is happening with CMYK, it is either saved/exported to these formats or it's not. How could this workflow introduce a massively complicating factor? 3. Behavior options make documentation convoluted and lacking consistence. We're not talking about opening the flood gate of change here. This is one simple workflow
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
@ Prokoudine: Dude, if you didn't act so full of yourself, so self-righteous and so haughty, half of these discussions wouldn't last half as long as they do. *You're a troll feeding other trolls* and thus you too are stoking the fire of these inane, pointless, never-ending arguments, because we all know the #1 rule about trolls is DON'T FEED THE TROLL. Signed: the helpful troll P.D.: In this message, I don't say a single word about export behavior. On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 9:52 PM, Richard strata_ran...@hotmail.com wrote: To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org From: jernej|s-gm...@eternallybored.org Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 21:41:57 +0100 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 10:16:07 -0800, Richard wrote: Sure, RTF supports many of THE most commonly used text editing features (bold/italic/underline, tabs/indents/spacing, font face/size/color) but it doesn't support many advanced Word features (widow/orphan control, footnotes, column layouts, etc.) and if you are relying on a document that involves those features will Word inform you that your target file format is not sufficient for what you are trying to save? Or will it just silently assume your document doesn't care about those features and save what it can, effectively discarding those features when you close out your session? You're actually wrong - RTF supports at least everything that Word 2003 supports - including styles, paragraph settings, columns, footnotes etc. You will get a warning if you try to save as OpenDocument though (and at least in Word 2013, the document layout may change to reflect that). *shrugs* Okay, it has been awhile since I looked at the RTF official, beyond that I am only aware of what gets exposed through the editor. And I don't use RTF for anything complex so I've almost never actually bumped into its limitations. -- Stratadrake strata_ran...@hotmail.com Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 2:14 AM, Jeffery Small wrote: My simple solution is to provide a workflow switch in the preferences that flips back and forth between the two workflow paradigms. Which has already been evaluated and denied. In his blog post on GIMP 2.8: understanding UI changes, Alexandre Prokoudine addresses the suggestion above: Not a blog post, but that's just a minor remark. 1. In general, options complicate code and make it less manageable. Every option virtually increases amount of cases where application can fail. A snowball can soon become an avalanche. Seriously? Yes, seriously. 2. Certain planned changes such as better native CMYK support presume that color separation is done a special mode for exporting. Maintaining a related behavior switch, when you have such a feature, would be hell. Hell? Really? Yes, really. I've been developing software for 40 years. This is an absolutely meaningless statement. The cook in the kindergarden I went to when I was a kid couldn't cook a meal worth a damn, and she had been at this job for decades. This is really not the kind of argument one would use to prove credibility. Is this a realistic statement or hyperbole? It is a realistic statement. Again, we're talking about saving/exporting standard png/jpg files while bypassing the xcf save. Regardless of what is happening with CMYK, it is either saved/exported to these formats or it's not. How could this workflow introduce a massively complicating factor? In the two or more years that we've been having this discussion noone has demonstrated the ability to 1) implement such a switch; 2) maintain a project containing such a switch; 3) ensure that noone is confused by the fact that different tutorials refer to different workflows of the same app. In fact, people who patched GIMP to revert the change are still incapable of even maintaining their respective forks and keeping them up to date with all the bugfixes we've had since releasing 2.8.0. Case in point: https://github.com/mskala/noxcf-gimp. To me this clearly indicates that nobody really wants to do introduce this kind of a switch. (Not that the team would accept it in the upstream project, mind you.) The amount of hot air regarding a possibility of such a switch, however, is truly incredible. 3. Behavior options make documentation convoluted and lacking consistence. We're not talking about opening the flood gate of change here. This is one simple workflow change that requires one simple update to the documentation. And that's coming from someone who's been developing software for 40 years? Sorry, but in my eyes you've just lost all your credibility. To sum it up, every change in UI opens the floodgate. In real life, people can stare at the slightly rephrased UI message and never realize it's what they need, then go to a forum and pester other people about removed feature. This is the reality that people who actually communicate to users have to deal with. People still take offense at this change, and there is probably no cure for that other than repeating again and again: the team doesn't hate you, they just refocused on a group of users for whom this makes a lot of sense. So far as I know, no one accused anyone of hating Exactly: so far as _you_ know. But refocusing doesn't mean you have to totally ignore the existing user base. Nobody's being ignored, let alone totally ignored. For someone who claims to have attempted being respectful that was one hell of a nasty remark. Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 3:54 AM, Steve Kinney wrote: I'm all for standards of function, design and behavior. Like for instance, when the GIMP saves a file, this file preserves the state of the project's work in progress; it is a project file, not an image file. And for instance, when creating a file formatted for end use by any of numerous applications, that's exporting the project as a finished product, e.g. an image file. A user has to do one [1] extra extra mouse click or keyboard shortcut to discard a project that has been exported without being saved. That's a reminder to save the work if it might be of any future use. As such it's a common and expected feature, seen across a range of software from word processors and desktop publishing packages to video editing suites. This feature imposes no hardship on any user and occasionally prevents lost work. OK, so you got it right. Awesome :) Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Fri, 2014-01-03 at 22:14 +, Jeffery Small wrote: Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net writes: [...] I will take you up on your offer to make a constructive GUI suggestion. I fully understand the arguments for the workflow change that was made to GIMP 2.8. What I think was lost in the process was a recognition that there are two different primary workflows for two different groups of users. I think there are probably many different kinds of user in many different environments. The GIMP team chose to focus on one such group. The file export spec isn't yet fully implemented, especially with respect to directories (folders). The unsaved changes dialogue replaces an earlier dialogue, saving as jpeg can cause data loss so there are no extra mouse clicks. Technically, one of the difficulties with implementing an old behaviour checkbox may be the way that file saving is done through plugins, and the need to preserve ABI compatibility, but I'm not certain. It's true, I think, that the GIMP developers have a history of getting more stubborn the more people complain :-) (that's why it's still called GIMP even though that's generally a rude or derogatory term in much of the English-speaking world). But it's also true that they do this for fun, because they enjoy doing it. Now, working from given the distinction between save/export that is part of the GIMP (re)design, how do we make life a little easier for people who are using GIMP to modify a JPEG or PNG image in place (something I do on a daily basis professionally by the way), I think there's mileage in such a conversation. But it's not about developers ignoring users, and that sort of framing almost guarantees a failed discussion. I hate you, now give me what I want works with cats because they are cute :-) For my own part I *would* like to see GIMP take on the idea of a project, with per-project resources and settings, and the ability to have multiple projects active at the same time, each with its own window or windows. But I'd also like to see gimp 2.10 (or whatever) released, with more than 8-bit depth support. The GIMP programmer team isn't very large, varying over the last few years between about 1.5 full-time-equivalent at its lowest up to maybe 4 or 5 for brief periods, and those people have varied from students (with or without shoes) to experienced GIMP developers wit not much time but willing to work on fixing a bug or some other thing that interests them or that they happened to need. So GIMP can't be all things to all people. Hope this helps a little. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Robert Vorsteg wrote: Yes. And a more important point that Norbert goes on to make is that developers should listen to users and take theminto account. I've listened to you. I still disagree with you. Are there any GIMP developers who read this list? Push harder, be more demanding, be less respectful, and there will be none. Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Robert, tell me - If you open would open a 2D drawing with a CAD software, do a lot of editing with 3D operations, what would you expect it to do when you press save? One thing is certain, we should insist that when you open any non-XCF file, it should be listed as an import operation - it converts a flat image file into a GIMP image. An image open in GIMP is a complex project with layers, masks and from gimp-2.9 on, different bit depths per component, information on text layers and so on. All other file formats but .XCF and .ORA can but take a snapshot of this work. And even ORA won't map 1:1 with GIMP capabilities. It does not even begin to make sense to tell the work can be saved to a flat format - and the current situation fixed it. The workflow for people wanting just to fix a lot of broken images can be improved, and that is made under _reasonable_ and constructive suggestions. Demanding regression to a broken behavior is neither. The save-as-XCF nly behavior actually makes the program easier to use for most people. One now just don't have to have personal flaws for saving as XCF and checking the exported files in order not to loose information: the normal program workflow allows one naturally to preserve both his ongoing work _and_ the original photographic work, by not overwriting it automatically. And the price to pay for that is to have to stop to think for a fraction of a second at the time one is done and should export the final resulting snapshot of the work done, having to select file-export instead of file-save. Moreover, as of GIMP 2.8.10, the export dialog can be opened by a single click when one tries to export to a non-native format from the save dialog. Not shure if you are aware of that, since that can't be such a burden as to generate so much complaint anymore. js -- On 2 January 2014 17:53, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Robert Vorsteg wrote: Yes. And a more important point that Norbert goes on to make is that developers should listen to users and take theminto account. I've listened to you. I still disagree with you. Are there any GIMP developers who read this list? Push harder, be more demanding, be less respectful, and there will be none. Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
I've watched these threads come an go and I must be missing something. When this new behavior first arrived, like everyone else I was used to the old way and having to learn a new work-flow is never fun. Regardless I just figured this was the way it was going to be so I adopted it immediately. At this point I can't even remember exactly how things used to work as the new way is now ingrained in my work-flow. What is so hard about Ctrl+o to overwrite, or Shift-Ctrl+e to export? If we could funnel all the wasted energy spent trying to buck this new feature, we could be up to gimp 3.0 by now. I've been a dog with a bone on many issues, but the reasoning behind this decision was a sound one and would rather put my energies into something more productive. This just isn't that big of a deal. The sooner you accept it, the sooner you will forget what it was you were so worried about. -- akovia -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 01/02/2014 06:17 PM, akovia wrote: I've watched these threads come an go and I must be missing something. When this new behavior first arrived, like everyone else I was used to the old way and having to learn a new work-flow is never fun. Regardless I just figured this was the way it was going to be so I adopted it immediately. At this point I can't even remember exactly how things used to work as the new way is now ingrained in my work-flow. What is so hard about Ctrl+o to overwrite, or Shift-Ctrl+e to export? B-B-B-But, control-e just isn't the same! They say it's the same but it isn't. If I do control-e to save my image as a JPEG, then try to close the file... I have to, to, to discard the state of the image in the editor! They make me alt-d to close the image! THEY MAKE ME PRESS ALT-D TO CLOSE THE IMAGE! WAAA!!! WHY, WHY, WHY in the name of God have they done this to me? WHY did they have to RUIN my LIFE?! /rant :o) Steve ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 2 January 2014 19:52, Daniel Hauck dan...@yacg.com wrote: I think you're missing the point. MOST users, just as with almost all other software, do not use the advanced features of advanced software. I see it all the time. I see people load up MS Word to check the spelling of something else (copy and paste) of programs which do not support that feature. And this amazing gold standard professional software like Adobe Photoshop and MS Word and lots more allow people to save in formats which are lossy. ok. Stop there. open a txt file with ms word.Not a .doc, docx, odt. click file-save. Read what it tells you. I rest the case. There is nothing advanced in preserving the editing information of one's project. (Now, I actually had not used ms word since, like, 1997. But I suppose it won't overwrite your txt file without telling you a thing or two about the file format you are using. Libreoffice won't. ) BTW, did you intend this rather unconstructive message just for me, or for the whole list? The GIMP lists are configured in a way the default reply goes only to the sender. js -- ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
I'm agree with jankardel, :) I prefer to keep the xcf, when I wanna save (i.e. by pressing ctrl+s) my gimp project. Then when I wanna export it to any other filetype (png, jpeg, gif, pdf etc) I prefer push the ctrl+E for exporting it.. But, maybe the gimp developer should add a feature to reassign the shortcut for commands, so if some buddy has their own preferably shortcut, they can assign it by them self.. :) Best Regard, Alvin Hikmawan ---nonstop learn, share and grow selalu.ingin.belajar,.berbagi..berkembang WA: 0819 4969 3787 On Jan 3, 2014 7:45 AM, Steve Kinney ad...@pilobilus.net wrote: On 01/02/2014 06:17 PM, akovia wrote: I've watched these threads come an go and I must be missing something. When this new behavior first arrived, like everyone else I was used to the old way and having to learn a new work-flow is never fun. Regardless I just figured this was the way it was going to be so I adopted it immediately. At this point I can't even remember exactly how things used to work as the new way is now ingrained in my work-flow. What is so hard about Ctrl+o to overwrite, or Shift-Ctrl+e to export? B-B-B-But, control-e just isn't the same! They say it's the same but it isn't. If I do control-e to save my image as a JPEG, then try to close the file... I have to, to, to discard the state of the image in the editor! They make me alt-d to close the image! THEY MAKE ME PRESS ALT-D TO CLOSE THE IMAGE! WAAA!!! WHY, WHY, WHY in the name of God have they done this to me? WHY did they have to RUIN my LIFE?! /rant :o) Steve ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On 2 January 2014 19:52, Daniel Hauck wrote: I think you're missing the point. MOST users, just as with almost all other software, do not use the advanced features of advanced software. Frankly, this is the first time I hear about a culture where it's socially acceptable nay desirable to lower the bar. Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Come on. I just cited numerous examples. For example, while there is no reason it can't be done otherwise, up on a map is always north and down is south. If your in the southern hemisphere, there's no reason they should feel like their maps shouldn't depict their location to be at the top. But we don't usually do that because of expectations. Expectations, like units of measure and orientations and layouts and functions of controls work best because they fall within expectations which results is less confusion. (NASA knows all about that where they have had issues mixing the Imperial and metric systems before.) People who have gone through great trouble to create improved keyboards and keyboard layouts can't seem to get beyond the human reality that keyboards are laid out inefficiently for legacy reasons but the cost of change is too high and too demanding. Even if something is better in some way, change is worse especially in cases like these. Better is a tricky thing. In the world of machines, better is usually pretty obvious. But in the world of people, it's another matter. All this feedback should be evidence enough of that. On 01/02/2014 08:22 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 2 January 2014 19:52, Daniel Hauck wrote: I think you're missing the point. MOST users, just as with almost all other software, do not use the advanced features of advanced software. Frankly, this is the first time I hear about a culture where it's socially acceptable nay desirable to lower the bar. Alexandre ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Are we still talking about GIMP? Alexandre 03 янв. 2014 г. 5:36 пользователь Daniel Hauck написал: Come on. I just cited numerous examples. For example, while there is no reason it can't be done otherwise, up on a map is always north and down is south... ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Actually there is a crucial point of workflows that you are missing. In order to make workflows work well for everyone, everything should be done in approximately the same way. Each function in a GUI should use similar hotkeys, similar menu functions and all that. This was a well established reality of what we call intuitive meaning we already know what to expect. Save in every program should behave like Save in most other programs. Save As... enhances save to enable someone to make changes in the name, location or format... just like in all other programs. This is the idea behind a unified GUI design and has been key to the success and adoption and usability of almost every program out there. To make a car analogy, there is a reason why they are laid out the way they are. For example, every car has a steering wheel and not a yoke and not a lever. There was a time when that wasn't the case. Care to guess why that changed? There's a reason the manual (standard?) transmission was set up the way it was as well. There were any number of ways it could have been done and different car makers actually did lay their pedals out in different layouts. Many of them argued that one layout was better than another. But at the end of the day, standard layout, design and behavior won out for the very same reasons GUI layout, design and behavior does. What's more? You probably use a standard keyboard layout even though there are more efficient ways to lay your keys out. Why is that? And why shouldn't your keyboard be changed out for each program you use while we're at it? And here's the real issue why it's still a real issue. When one program does something so very differently from all the others in your workflows, that one program represents a requirement to stop and think which is, in fact, an interruption... of workflows. Now it's not an interruption if you ONLY use GiMP. But since you're running an email program or a browser right now, chances are pretty good you do more than GiMP. So you probably already know what I'm talking about. So instead of letting you choose how to respond, let's just cut to the core purpose of this splinter in the fingers of so many users: What is it that GiMP is attempting to accomplish with this departure from standard behavior? What was broken before that is fixed with this change? It's my understanding that it's so a lot of work on a project isn't lost through an accidental save... an accident which happens because of standard, default behaviors such as Ctrl+S saving in the format of the original file, overwriting the original file. Frankly, this is what I would consider to be an Amateur mistake to make...something professionals learn not to do -- usually the hard way. To Joao: As for being warned that data may be lost? That part of normal behavior for quite a few programs and this is completely acceptable behavior. If GiMP did that, it would also be acceptable but only if there were advanced features of the editing that might need to be saved such as multiple layers or a mask or alpha channel. And you skipped right past my point so I will ask it as direct and simple questions: Do you believe most uses of GiMP is a full blown project? You know, with hours of work going into them? Do you think most users of GiMP are more casual users who just want to crop, resize or otherwise make simple changes to their images? (It would be pointless to say 'then they should use something else because GiMP is far more powerful, blah blah blah' because even Photoshop users use it casually despite its bloated size and enormous capability.) So it really comes back to what's broken about the normal way of doing things? On 01/02/2014 07:45 PM, Steve Kinney wrote: On 01/02/2014 06:17 PM, akovia wrote: I've watched these threads come an go and I must be missing something. When this new behavior first arrived, like everyone else I was used to the old way and having to learn a new work-flow is never fun. Regardless I just figured this was the way it was going to be so I adopted it immediately. At this point I can't even remember exactly how things used to work as the new way is now ingrained in my work-flow. What is so hard about Ctrl+o to overwrite, or Shift-Ctrl+e to export? B-B-B-But, control-e just isn't the same! They say it's the same but it isn't. If I do control-e to save my image as a JPEG, then try to close the file... I have to, to, to discard the state of the image in the editor! They make me alt-d to close the image! THEY MAKE ME PRESS ALT-D TO CLOSE THE IMAGE! WAAA!!! WHY, WHY, WHY in the name of God have they done this to me? WHY did they have to RUIN my LIFE?! /rant :o) Steve ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership:
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
If I intended it only for you, why would you be so rude as to publish something I wrote only to you in a public list? On 01/02/2014 08:04 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: On 2 January 2014 19:52, Daniel Hauck dan...@yacg.com wrote: I think you're missing the point. MOST users, just as with almost all other software, do not use the advanced features of advanced software. I see it all the time. I see people load up MS Word to check the spelling of something else (copy and paste) of programs which do not support that feature. And this amazing gold standard professional software like Adobe Photoshop and MS Word and lots more allow people to save in formats which are lossy. ok. Stop there. open a txt file with ms word.Not a .doc, docx, odt. click file-save. Read what it tells you. I rest the case. There is nothing advanced in preserving the editing information of one's project. (Now, I actually had not used ms word since, like, 1997. But I suppose it won't overwrite your txt file without telling you a thing or two about the file format you are using. Libreoffice won't. ) BTW, did you intend this rather unconstructive message just for me, or for the whole list? The GIMP lists are configured in a way the default reply goes only to the sender. js -- ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Daniel, We've been through this argument about standards many times. Do you really think this time you are going to finally win? (The answer is no, by the way.) Alexandre 03 янв. 2014 г. 5:50 пользователь Daniel Hauck dan...@yacg.com написал: Yes and I'm pretty sure most people are getting what I'm driving at -- standards of function, design and behavior. On 01/02/2014 08:44 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: Are we still talking about GIMP? Alexandre 03 ���. 2014 �. 5:36 Daniel Hauck ���: Come on. I just cited numerous examples. For example, while there is no reason it can't be done otherwise, up on a map is always north and down is south... ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
No, I don't think so because this isn't a democratic situation. What you think rules out over what many others independently think and agree upon. But let me ask you this and I'll shut up. Do you use a Dvorak keyboard or a Querty? And why? It's a loaded question, of course. If you answer Dvorak, you win. But if you answer Querty, you lose because the world knows querty was inefficient by design and yet we continue to use it for the very reasons I have stated and that you implicitly and in practice agree. On 01/02/2014 08:58 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: Daniel, We've been through this argument about standards many times. Do you really think this time you are going to finally win? (The answer is no, by the way.) Alexandre 03 янв. 2014 г. 5:50 пользователь Daniel Hauck dan...@yacg.com написал: Yes and I'm pretty sure most people are getting what I'm driving at -- standards of function, design and behavior. On 01/02/2014 08:44 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: Are we still talking about GIMP? Alexandre 03 ���. 2014 �. 5:36 Daniel Hauck ���: Come on. I just cited numerous examples. For example, while there is no reason it can't be done otherwise, up on a map is always north and down is south... ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Daniel Hauck (dan...@yacg.com) wrote: But if you answer Querty, you lose because the world knows querty was inefficient by design May I quote Wikipedia? Contrary to popular belief, the QWERTY layout was not designed to slow the typist down, but rather to speed up typing by preventing jams. (There is also evidence that, aside from the issue of jamming, keys being further apart increases typing speed on its own, because it encourages alternation between the hands. The whole discussion suffers from well known facts being pulled out of thin air, and this is not a single bit different. Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
Nice spin. Yes, it was for mechanical reasons and to prevent the arms which had letters slamming against the ribbon and paper at a single point from hitting each other. Original layouts were based on convenience based on logical notions such as alphabetic order and frequency of use. The unfortunate reality was that it conflicted with the mechanics of typing. There can be no doubt that it was designed to work with character frequency by spreading it out and making it less likely for collisions to occur. Other keyboard layouts contradict your notion that spreading keys out speeds things up in any way. The Dvorak layout has enjoyed a level of success and fandom precisely because it is faster among the proficient users than querty among proficient users. Querty was designed to pace keyboard entry. It can't be paced without being slowed. Quoting wikipedia is almost always problematic as wikipedia is prone to edit wars and strong opinions and positions. It would be better to cite the references cited by wikipedia and in the absence of references, requisite grains of salt are recommended. In any case, if Wikipedia is a great source of fact, then you probably also noticed mention of keyboard entry methods which are most certainly more efficient and speedy including stenotype and plover. On 01/02/2014 10:35 PM, Simon Budig wrote: Daniel Hauck (dan...@yacg.com) wrote: But if you answer Querty, you lose because the world knows querty was inefficient by design May I quote Wikipedia? Contrary to popular belief, the QWERTY layout was not designed to slow the typist down, but rather to speed up typing by preventing jams. (There is also evidence that, aside from the issue of jamming, keys being further apart increases typing speed on its own, because it encourages alternation between the hands. The whole discussion suffers from well known facts being pulled out of thin air, and this is not a single bit different. Bye, Simon ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Thu, 2014-01-02 at 14:36 -0500, Robert Vorsteg wrote: - opening a jpg file - editing - saving should result in a saved version of the original file, If you happen to be using a JPEG editor that's probably true, although watch that since JPEG compression is lossy this is not always a good workflow. Similarly if you open a binary executable and change the contents of a string, keeping the length constant, and save, you get a new binary executable, but that does not make the binary editor be a compiler. The degree of emotional attachment people have to save as rather than expert as is a little bewildering. Are there any GIMP developers who read this list? Some. Fewer over time. There aren't that many GIMP developers to start with, and every message (including mine!) takes time away from coding. They removed a feature ( save as) that many users want, The ability to write a JPEG file to disk has not been removed. The way you access that feature changed slightly. Constructive suggestions about how to make a more coherent workflow in GIMP are welcomed. Whining about change is not so welcome. -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml The barefoot typographer. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] gimp users matter
On Thu, 2014-01-02 at 20:19 -0500, Daniel Hauck wrote: [...] And here's the real issue why it's still a real issue. When one program does something so very differently from all the others in your workflows, that one program represents a requirement to stop and think which is, in fact, an interruption... of workflows. It's lucky that GIMP now works like so many other programs - inkscape, open office, blender, spreadsheet programs, ... Do you believe most uses of GiMP is a full blown project? You know, with hours of work going into them? It's certainly the intent. Days or weeks in some cases. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
