Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
I think that this link hilights the issue. http://vcl.ncsu.edu/news/general-announcements/new-vcl-website-launched The project at NCSU is sen as being powered by the NC State Computing Platform. There is clearly more of a tie between the name of the project and its roots. Quite honestly, this can be word smithed in any number of ways but the relationship exists. Using Alan's example with a situation that I'm quite familiar with is the reltionship between Apache Geronimo and IBM's "version" which was called WebSphere Community Edition. It would certainly not be appropriate for IBM to call it WebSphere "Geronimo Version". Apache owned the brand Geronimo and IBM, or anyone else for that matter, was free to do with the code what they wanted. It is far easier for the project here to change its name than it is to impose changes on NC State and it would not be appropriate for Apache to suggest or even try and do so. When the project is successful, it should be on its merits and keeping a sense of genealogy is fine, people will know it by its new name. On Mar 6, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Henry E Schaffer wrote: I share in Josh's puzzlement. Since we don't have and never have had a VCL Department, do we need to start one and then close it down? What we have is software which we call "VCL", and this is reflected in the documentation and the URL to use our production system (vcl.ncsu.edu). At NC State we use a piece of software which we call "Apache HTTP Server". This name is the same as the ASF project. We're not the only organization which does this. Ditto for other suftware, e.g. Tomcat. But using software is different than naming products. Not a good example. So I don't understand the following quoted material is consistent with our situation. "There must be a name for the project at ASF that isn't used anywhere else in the world for any similar project, since we don't (now) have any VCL project except for the ASF one. This is a debateable point ... see the URL above. and anyone who downloads and installs said project isn't allowed to use the ASF name in any way." If "ASF name" means the name of our project at ASF, then for the other projects, how can people say they are running Apache HTTP Server or Tomcat? This isn't about use, its about branding. If "ASF name" means "the name of the Foundation" then there is the same conflict when people say they are running Apache HTTP Server or Tomcat. Am I missing something? --henry schaffer
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Mar 6, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Henry E Schaffer wrote: Kevan writes: ... Perhaps an example would be useful. There are multiple cases where Open Source projects have moved to Apache and maintained their name. For example, both OpenEJB and ActiveMQ were Codehaus projects. They both entered Apache Incubator. There was a period of time where there were (some) activities at both Codehaus OpenEJB/ActiveMQ and within the corresponding Apache Incuabator projects. However, over time, the projects were solely focused on the Apache Incubator. You can find some vestiges of the old Codehaus projects, but essentially the Codehaus projects no longer exist. So, is there a similar situation for VCL? That's what I thought - we've already made that transition to having code development entirely within the Apache Incubator project. It's been my impression that a public facing NCSU 'VCL' entity was going to continue, Our public facing NCSU 'VCL' entity is a computing service which we provide for the use of our students, faculty, and others. Yes, we intend to continue providing this service. The users are using computing resources (cycles, software) which is made available through the use of the VCL software which is continuing to be developed in the Apache Incubator project. We see the service and the software development as being separate. along with the Apache VCL project. If this is the case, then there would seem to be a problem. So, is there still going to be a public facing 'NCSU VCL' project? No - there will be no public facing 'NCSU VCL' software development project. But we need to continue providing a computing service to our students, faculty, ... and we want to call this computing service the VCL (or NCSU VCL or ... - note that it really has to be in the ncsu.edu domain.) We actually don't call it a "project" - we call it a Lab or a Service. Quoting from our home page: Remote Access Service The Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) is a remote access service that allows you to reserve a computer with a desired set of applications for yourself, and remotely access it over the Internet. We don't use the word "Project" there, and our users don't have any involvement with software development. It's been my impression that there would be. Doing some research, http://vcl.ncsu.edu tells me that "Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) is a remote access service..." Virtual Computing Lab and (VCL) seem to be somewhat synonymous. Yes. So, can you give us an idea on how you intend to break yourself from the current situation? Things like: "NCSU Virtual Computing Lab: powered by Apache VCL"? I think we've already suggested this. VCL and Virtual Computing Lab are both proper nouns. This is the collision to which I refer to. It's obvious that VCL is an acronym for Virtual Computing Lab. And usage of "VCL" on your web site will be replaced by either "Virtual Computing Lab" or "Apache VCL", as appropriate? Something like this seems reasonable - although we need to figure out exactly what would be appropriate. (Would we be able, with these changes to continue using https://vcl.ncsu.edu/ ?) It might take some work to see how to reword material, such as this from the home page Development of The Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) started in 2004 as a joint venture of the College of Engineering (COE) and the Office of Information Technology (OIT) ... perhaps to Development of The Virtual Computing Lab (now using the software which has moved to the Apache VCL project) started in 2004 as a joint venture of the College of Engineering (COE) and the Office of Information Technology (OIT) VCL or Virtual Computing Lab are just too close, especially given the fact that the software project originates from NCSU VCL. If Amazon were moving their EC2 software project to ASF would this fly: Development of The Electronic Computing Cloud (now using the software which has moved to the Apache EC2 project) started in 2004 by Amazon. Looks bad to me. Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Henry beat me to a response. I'll only add that we'll probably be moving any documentation content currently under vcl.ncsu.edu that is not specific to the ASF VCL install at NCSU to ASF VCL websites. Josh On Fri March 6 2009 3:07:17 pm Henry E Schaffer wrote: > Kevan writes: > > ... > > Perhaps an example would be useful. > > > > There are multiple cases where Open Source projects have moved to > > Apache and maintained their name. For example, both OpenEJB and > > ActiveMQ were Codehaus projects. They both entered Apache Incubator. > > There was a period of time where there were (some) activities at both > > Codehaus OpenEJB/ActiveMQ and within the corresponding Apache > > Incuabator projects. However, over time, the projects were solely > > focused on the Apache Incubator. You can find some vestiges of the old > > Codehaus projects, but essentially the Codehaus projects no longer > > exist. > > > > So, is there a similar situation for VCL? > > That's what I thought - we've already made that transition to having > code development entirely within the Apache Incubator project. > > > It's been my impression that > > a public facing NCSU 'VCL' entity was going to continue, > > Our public facing NCSU 'VCL' entity is a computing service which we > provide for the use of our students, faculty, and others. Yes, we > intend to continue providing this service. The users are using > computing resources (cycles, software) which is made available through > the use of the VCL software which is continuing to be developed in the > Apache Incubator project. > > We see the service and the software development as being separate. > > > along with > > the Apache VCL project. If this is the case, then there would seem to > > be a problem. > > > > So, is there still going to be a public facing 'NCSU VCL' project? > > No - there will be no public facing 'NCSU VCL' software development > project. > > But we need to continue providing a computing service to our students, > faculty, ... and we want to call this computing service the VCL (or NCSU > VCL or ... - note that it really has to be in the ncsu.edu domain.) > We actually don't call it a "project" - we call it a Lab or a Service. > Quoting from our home page: > > Remote Access Service > > The Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) is a remote access service that allows > you to reserve a computer with a desired set of applications for > yourself, and remotely access it over the Internet. > > We don't use the word "Project" there, and our users don't have any > involvement with software development. > > > It's been my impression that there would be. > > > > Doing some research, http://vcl.ncsu.edu tells me that "Virtual > > Computing Lab (VCL) is a remote access service..." Virtual Computing > > Lab and (VCL) seem to be somewhat synonymous. > > Yes. > > > So, can you give us an idea on how you intend to break yourself from > > the current situation? Things like: "NCSU Virtual Computing Lab: > > powered by Apache VCL"? > > I think we've already suggested this. > > > And usage of "VCL" on your web site will be > > replaced by either "Virtual Computing Lab" or "Apache VCL", as > > appropriate? > > Something like this seems reasonable - although we need to figure out > exactly what would be appropriate. (Would we be able, with these > changes to continue using https://vcl.ncsu.edu/ ?) > > It might take some work to see how to reword material, such as this > from the home page > > Development of The Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) started in 2004 as a > joint venture of the College of Engineering (COE) and the Office of > Information Technology (OIT) ... > > perhaps to > > Development of The Virtual Computing Lab (now using the software which > has moved to the Apache VCL project) started in 2004 as a joint venture > of the College of Engineering (COE) and the Office of Information > Technology (OIT) > > ??? > > > The fact that the two terms appear to have been used > > synonymously, would seem to complicate matters. - -- - --- Josh Thompson Systems Programmer Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) North Carolina State University josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu 919-515-5323 my GPG/PGP key can be found at www.keyserver.net -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJsYhGV/LQcNdtPQMRAm3oAJkBDeTpzH2QitI+lTGRAczGocslzQCdE3EI ED5SDZfIPgcuzExB6jFL99s= =6l8v -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Mar 6, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri March 6 2009 1:09:20 pm Alan D. Cabrera wrote: On Mar 6, 2009, at 7:14 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri March 6 2009 9:37:03 am Alan D. Cabrera wrote: So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what the name, either formal or common, AFS rules require a different name? Correct, our project name has to be different. This is the message I keep hearing (and by "hearing", I mean it is how I am interpreting what I read) that doesn't make any sense to me: "There must be a name for the project at ASF that isn't used anywhere else in the world for any similar project, and anyone who downloads and installs said project isn't allowed to use the ASF name in any way." That doesn't make sense to me because t's a normal business model to produce software that is to be sold and used by other people /without/ changing the name of the software, in fact, it would generally be considered wrong to change the name. An example similar to ours that I can think of is Blackboard software used for online courses. www.blackboard.com is the site for the company that develops it. If you do a google search for "allinurl:blackboard" you'll find many sites that have Blackboard installed and actually use "blackboard" in the URL. You are missing the point. I am not advocating changing the name just for the sake of changing the name. There is a conflict in naming between NCSU VCL and this project. It's that simple. I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding what you're saying - I need you to restate it using different wording rather than just repeating yourself. I don't understand the naming conflict between ASF VCL and NCSU's install of VCL (keep in mind the content at vcl.ncsu.edu will be changed to refer to development of VCL being at ASF and stuff at vcl.ncsu.edu to just be an install of it). It's the name your department name, NCSU VCL, and the name of this incubating project, ASF VCL, that is the problem. They cannot be the same. It doesn't matter if the stuff at the NCSU VCL department is just an installation of the ASF VCL project. It doesn't matter if there's attribution at the NCSU VCL department that they have installed ASF VCL software. There is a naming conflict and that has to be resolved. Umm, there is no "NCSU VCL" department. There are people from two different groups at NCSU that are involved in development of VCL. The main group being the Office of Information Technology. There is a group within that named Advanced Computing. Aaron, Andy, and I are in that group. There is a completely separate group named Centennial Networking Lab that has a fair amount of interest in VCL as well. Brian and Andrew work for them. Other than the content at vcl.ncsu.edu discussing development of VCL that will be changed to reflect development being done at ASF, the only thing - organizational unit or otherwise - at NCSU that exists using the name VCL is the installation of this project. Ok, so now we may be making some progress here. When I go to http://vcl.ncsu.edu/ VCL is all over the place. It really gives the impression that there's a lab over at NCSU called VCL. I see "Virtual Computing Lab, powered by NC STATE's Virtual Computing Platform". Even if the powered by clause were changed as mentioned in previous posts to: Virtual Computing Lab, powered by ASF VCL I don't see how that would fly. If however, *every* reference to VCL and Virtual Computing Lab were replaced with, say, WolfPack. Then this would definitely work: WolfPack, powered by ASF VCL Are you saying that *all* VCL and Virtual Computing Lab terms will be scrubbed at NCSU? It seems to me, the Blackboard example I gave above exactly matches our situation. If it can work for them, why can it not work for VCL? If you don't think it matches our situation, please clearly state how and why you don't think it matches. It does not match our situation. In your example you have a *single* corporation. In our situation we have two separate institutions, one of them being a non-profit software foundation. The project at the ASF cannot share a name with it's progenitor, an external institution. I mention branding because it's obvious that the NCSU staff is vociferously attempting to keep the branding connection between the NCSU department and the ASF incubator project by keeping the same name, regardless of what that name is. I'm not trying to keep a branding connection between NCSU and VCL. I'm trying to keep a project that's been known by the name VCL for almost 5 years, having had many presentations and papers published about it from having to be renamed to something else that no one has heard of. This is the *only* reason I am interested in keeping the VCL name. There were discussions at NCSU a little while ago about
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
Kevan writes: > ... > Perhaps an example would be useful. > > There are multiple cases where Open Source projects have moved to > Apache and maintained their name. For example, both OpenEJB and > ActiveMQ were Codehaus projects. They both entered Apache Incubator. > There was a period of time where there were (some) activities at both > Codehaus OpenEJB/ActiveMQ and within the corresponding Apache > Incuabator projects. However, over time, the projects were solely > focused on the Apache Incubator. You can find some vestiges of the old > Codehaus projects, but essentially the Codehaus projects no longer > exist. > > So, is there a similar situation for VCL? That's what I thought - we've already made that transition to having code development entirely within the Apache Incubator project. > It's been my impression that > a public facing NCSU 'VCL' entity was going to continue, Our public facing NCSU 'VCL' entity is a computing service which we provide for the use of our students, faculty, and others. Yes, we intend to continue providing this service. The users are using computing resources (cycles, software) which is made available through the use of the VCL software which is continuing to be developed in the Apache Incubator project. We see the service and the software development as being separate. > along with > the Apache VCL project. If this is the case, then there would seem to > be a problem. > > So, is there still going to be a public facing 'NCSU VCL' project? No - there will be no public facing 'NCSU VCL' software development project. But we need to continue providing a computing service to our students, faculty, ... and we want to call this computing service the VCL (or NCSU VCL or ... - note that it really has to be in the ncsu.edu domain.) We actually don't call it a "project" - we call it a Lab or a Service. Quoting from our home page: Remote Access Service The Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) is a remote access service that allows you to reserve a computer with a desired set of applications for yourself, and remotely access it over the Internet. We don't use the word "Project" there, and our users don't have any involvement with software development. > It's been my impression that there would be. > > Doing some research, http://vcl.ncsu.edu tells me that "Virtual > Computing Lab (VCL) is a remote access service..." Virtual Computing > Lab and (VCL) seem to be somewhat synonymous. Yes. > So, can you give us an idea on how you intend to break yourself from > the current situation? Things like: "NCSU Virtual Computing Lab: > powered by Apache VCL"? I think we've already suggested this. > And usage of "VCL" on your web site will be > replaced by either "Virtual Computing Lab" or "Apache VCL", as > appropriate? Something like this seems reasonable - although we need to figure out exactly what would be appropriate. (Would we be able, with these changes to continue using https://vcl.ncsu.edu/ ?) It might take some work to see how to reword material, such as this from the home page Development of The Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) started in 2004 as a joint venture of the College of Engineering (COE) and the Office of Information Technology (OIT) ... perhaps to Development of The Virtual Computing Lab (now using the software which has moved to the Apache VCL project) started in 2004 as a joint venture of the College of Engineering (COE) and the Office of Information Technology (OIT) ??? > The fact that the two terms appear to have been used > synonymously, would seem to complicate matters. -- --henry schaffer
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri March 6 2009 2:39:42 pm Henry E Schaffer wrote: > I share in Josh's puzzlement. Since we don't have and never have had > a VCL Department, do we need to start one and then close it down? > > What we have is software which we call "VCL", and this is reflected in > the documentation and the URL to use our production system (vcl.ncsu.edu). > > At NC State we use a piece of software which we call "Apache HTTP > Server". This name is the same as the ASF project. We're not the only > organization which does this. Ditto for other suftware, e.g. Tomcat. > > So I don't understand the following quoted material is consistent with > our situation. > > > > >>> "There must be a name for the project at ASF that isn't used > > > >>> anywhere else in > > > >>> the world for any similar project, > > since we don't (now) have any VCL project except for the ASF one. > > > > >>> and anyone who downloads and > > > >>> installs said > > > >>> project isn't allowed to use the ASF name in any way." > > If "ASF name" means the name of our project at ASF, then for the other > projects, how can people say they are running Apache HTTP Server or > Tomcat? > > If "ASF name" means "the name of the Foundation" then there is the > same conflict when people say they are running Apache HTTP Server or > Tomcat. > > Am I missing something? > > --henry schaffer I just wanted to point out that the part Henry quoted above that had quotes around it were my words which were my interpretation of Alan's - not his directly. Josh - -- - --- Josh Thompson Systems Programmer Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) North Carolina State University josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu 919-515-5323 my GPG/PGP key can be found at www.keyserver.net -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJsX30V/LQcNdtPQMRAubJAJ9+LHCIT5/ftKA2DvfY/eD9hM7xxgCff7e5 1QI9NesWrnALM5dMxNK5728= =H04C -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Mar 6, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding what you're saying - I need you to restate it using different wording rather than just repeating yourself. I don't understand the naming conflict between ASF VCL and NCSU's install of VCL (keep in mind the content at vcl.ncsu.edu will be changed to refer to development of VCL being at ASF and stuff at vcl.ncsu.edu to just be an install of it). It seems to me, the Blackboard example I gave above exactly matches our situation. If it can work for them, why can it not work for VCL? If you don't think it matches our situation, please clearly state how and why you don't think it matches. Matt and Kevan - Do you understand what Alan is saying? If so, as our other two mentors, can you help to clarify it? Heh. Pull me in from the sidelines... Perhaps an example would be useful. There are multiple cases where Open Source projects have moved to Apache and maintained their name. For example, both OpenEJB and ActiveMQ were Codehaus projects. They both entered Apache Incubator. There was a period of time where there were (some) activities at both Codehaus OpenEJB/ActiveMQ and within the corresponding Apache Incuabator projects. However, over time, the projects were solely focused on the Apache Incubator. You can find some vestiges of the old Codehaus projects, but essentially the Codehaus projects no longer exist. So, is there a similar situation for VCL? It's been my impression that a public facing NCSU 'VCL' entity was going to continue, along with the Apache VCL project. If this is the case, then there would seem to be a problem. So, is there still going to be a public facing 'NCSU VCL' project? It's been my impression that there would be. Doing some research, http://vcl.ncsu.edu tells me that "Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) is a remote access service..." Virtual Computing Lab and (VCL) seem to be somewhat synonymous. So, can you give us an idea on how you intend to break yourself from the current situation? Things like: "NCSU Virtual Computing Lab: powered by Apache VCL"? And usage of "VCL" on your web site will be replaced by either "Virtual Computing Lab" or "Apache VCL", as appropriate? The fact that the two terms appear to have been used synonymously, would seem to complicate matters. --kevan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
I share in Josh's puzzlement. Since we don't have and never have had a VCL Department, do we need to start one and then close it down? What we have is software which we call "VCL", and this is reflected in the documentation and the URL to use our production system (vcl.ncsu.edu). At NC State we use a piece of software which we call "Apache HTTP Server". This name is the same as the ASF project. We're not the only organization which does this. Ditto for other suftware, e.g. Tomcat. So I don't understand the following quoted material is consistent with our situation. > > >>> "There must be a name for the project at ASF that isn't used > > >>> anywhere else in > > >>> the world for any similar project, since we don't (now) have any VCL project except for the ASF one. > > >>> and anyone who downloads and > > >>> installs said > > >>> project isn't allowed to use the ASF name in any way." If "ASF name" means the name of our project at ASF, then for the other projects, how can people say they are running Apache HTTP Server or Tomcat? If "ASF name" means "the name of the Foundation" then there is the same conflict when people say they are running Apache HTTP Server or Tomcat. Am I missing something? --henry schaffer
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri March 6 2009 1:09:20 pm Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > On Mar 6, 2009, at 7:14 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Fri March 6 2009 9:37:03 am Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > > So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what the name, > > either formal or common, AFS rules require a different name? > > Correct, our project name has to be different. > >>> > >>> This is the message I keep hearing (and by "hearing", I mean it is > >>> how I am > >>> interpreting what I read) that doesn't make any sense to me: > >>> > >>> "There must be a name for the project at ASF that isn't used > >>> anywhere else in > >>> the world for any similar project, and anyone who downloads and > >>> installs said > >>> project isn't allowed to use the ASF name in any way." > >>> > >>> That doesn't make sense to me because t's a normal business model to > >>> produce > >>> software that is to be sold and used by other people /without/ > >>> changing the > >>> name of the software, in fact, it would generally be considered > >>> wrong to > >>> change the name. An example similar to ours that I can think of is > >>> Blackboard software used for online courses. www.blackboard.com is > >>> the site > >>> for the company that develops it. If you do a google search > >>> for "allinurl:blackboard" you'll find many sites that have > >>> Blackboard > >>> installed and actually use "blackboard" in the URL. > >> > >> You are missing the point. I am not advocating changing the name > >> just > >> for the sake of changing the name. There is a conflict in naming > >> between NCSU VCL and this project. It's that simple. > > > > I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding what you're saying - I need > > you to > > restate it using different wording rather than just repeating > > yourself. I > > don't understand the naming conflict between ASF VCL and NCSU's > > install of > > VCL (keep in mind the content at vcl.ncsu.edu will be changed to > > refer to > > development of VCL being at ASF and stuff at vcl.ncsu.edu to just be > > an > > install of it). > > It's the name your department name, NCSU VCL, and the name of this > incubating project, ASF VCL, that is the problem. They cannot be the > same. It doesn't matter if the stuff at the NCSU VCL department is > just an installation of the ASF VCL project. It doesn't matter if > there's attribution at the NCSU VCL department that they have > installed ASF VCL software. > > There is a naming conflict and that has to be resolved. Umm, there is no "NCSU VCL" department. There are people from two different groups at NCSU that are involved in development of VCL. The main group being the Office of Information Technology. There is a group within that named Advanced Computing. Aaron, Andy, and I are in that group. There is a completely separate group named Centennial Networking Lab that has a fair amount of interest in VCL as well. Brian and Andrew work for them. Other than the content at vcl.ncsu.edu discussing development of VCL that will be changed to reflect development being done at ASF, the only thing - organizational unit or otherwise - at NCSU that exists using the name VCL is the installation of this project. > > It seems to me, the Blackboard example I gave above exactly > > matches our situation. If it can work for them, why can it not work > > for VCL? > > If you don't think it matches our situation, please clearly state > > how and why > > you don't think it matches. > > It does not match our situation. In your example you have a *single* > corporation. In our situation we have two separate institutions, one > of them being a non-profit software foundation. The project at the > ASF cannot share a name with it's progenitor, an external institution. > > I mention branding because it's obvious that the NCSU staff is > vociferously attempting to keep the branding connection between the > NCSU department and the ASF incubator project by keeping the same > name, regardless of what that name is. I'm not trying to keep a branding connection between NCSU and VCL. I'm trying to keep a project that's been known by the name VCL for almost 5 years, having had many presentations and papers published about it from having to be renamed to something else that no one has heard of. This is the *only* reason I am interested in keeping the VCL name. There were discussions at NCSU a little while ago about changing the name (before there was even the idea to move development to ASF). I wanted to keep the VCL name then too - for exactly the same reasons - because it is what people know the /project/ as. I'm not trying to keep the name because people associate it with NCSU, nor because I think it is necessarily the best name for the project (as in, a different name from the beginning may have been better). It's simply because people know this project as VCL, an
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Mar 6, 2009, at 7:14 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri March 6 2009 9:37:03 am Alan D. Cabrera wrote: So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what the name, either formal or common, AFS rules require a different name? Correct, our project name has to be different. This is the message I keep hearing (and by "hearing", I mean it is how I am interpreting what I read) that doesn't make any sense to me: "There must be a name for the project at ASF that isn't used anywhere else in the world for any similar project, and anyone who downloads and installs said project isn't allowed to use the ASF name in any way." That doesn't make sense to me because t's a normal business model to produce software that is to be sold and used by other people /without/ changing the name of the software, in fact, it would generally be considered wrong to change the name. An example similar to ours that I can think of is Blackboard software used for online courses. www.blackboard.com is the site for the company that develops it. If you do a google search for "allinurl:blackboard" you'll find many sites that have Blackboard installed and actually use "blackboard" in the URL. You are missing the point. I am not advocating changing the name just for the sake of changing the name. There is a conflict in naming between NCSU VCL and this project. It's that simple. I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding what you're saying - I need you to restate it using different wording rather than just repeating yourself. I don't understand the naming conflict between ASF VCL and NCSU's install of VCL (keep in mind the content at vcl.ncsu.edu will be changed to refer to development of VCL being at ASF and stuff at vcl.ncsu.edu to just be an install of it). It's the name your department name, NCSU VCL, and the name of this incubating project, ASF VCL, that is the problem. They cannot be the same. It doesn't matter if the stuff at the NCSU VCL department is just an installation of the ASF VCL project. It doesn't matter if there's attribution at the NCSU VCL department that they have installed ASF VCL software. There is a naming conflict and that has to be resolved. It seems to me, the Blackboard example I gave above exactly matches our situation. If it can work for them, why can it not work for VCL? If you don't think it matches our situation, please clearly state how and why you don't think it matches. It does not match our situation. In your example you have a *single* corporation. In our situation we have two separate institutions, one of them being a non-profit software foundation. The project at the ASF cannot share a name with it's progenitor, an external institution. I mention branding because it's obvious that the NCSU staff is vociferously attempting to keep the branding connection between the NCSU department and the ASF incubator project by keeping the same name, regardless of what that name is. Regards, Alan Matt and Kevan - Do you understand what Alan is saying? If so, as our other two mentors, can you help to clarify it? Josh I will repeat myself again here. NCSU VCL and its developers have a lot to be proud of. It's only natural that both, NCSU VCL and its developers at ASF VCL, would want to keep their association with the brand. That brand is only strengthened as departments from other universities join in and have their initiatives participate in the VCL brand. Unfortunately the ASF must remain independent this branding effort. We are not a business. We are an independent, non-profit, software foundation and we must remain free from such entanglements. Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri March 6 2009 9:37:03 am Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > >>> So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what the name, > >>> either formal or common, AFS rules require a different name? > >> > >> Correct, our project name has to be different. > > > > This is the message I keep hearing (and by "hearing", I mean it is > > how I am > > interpreting what I read) that doesn't make any sense to me: > > > > "There must be a name for the project at ASF that isn't used > > anywhere else in > > the world for any similar project, and anyone who downloads and > > installs said > > project isn't allowed to use the ASF name in any way." > > > > That doesn't make sense to me because t's a normal business model to > > produce > > software that is to be sold and used by other people /without/ > > changing the > > name of the software, in fact, it would generally be considered > > wrong to > > change the name. An example similar to ours that I can think of is > > Blackboard software used for online courses. www.blackboard.com is > > the site > > for the company that develops it. If you do a google search > > for "allinurl:blackboard" you'll find many sites that have Blackboard > > installed and actually use "blackboard" in the URL. > > You are missing the point. I am not advocating changing the name just > for the sake of changing the name. There is a conflict in naming > between NCSU VCL and this project. It's that simple. I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding what you're saying - I need you to restate it using different wording rather than just repeating yourself. I don't understand the naming conflict between ASF VCL and NCSU's install of VCL (keep in mind the content at vcl.ncsu.edu will be changed to refer to development of VCL being at ASF and stuff at vcl.ncsu.edu to just be an install of it). It seems to me, the Blackboard example I gave above exactly matches our situation. If it can work for them, why can it not work for VCL? If you don't think it matches our situation, please clearly state how and why you don't think it matches. Matt and Kevan - Do you understand what Alan is saying? If so, as our other two mentors, can you help to clarify it? Josh > I will repeat myself again here. NCSU VCL and its developers have a > lot to be proud of. It's only natural that both, NCSU VCL and its > developers at ASF VCL, would want to keep their association with the > brand. That brand is only strengthened as departments from other > universities join in and have their initiatives participate in the VCL > brand. Unfortunately the ASF must remain independent this branding > effort. > > We are not a business. We are an independent, non-profit, software > foundation and we must remain free from such entanglements. > > > Regards, > Alan > > > Josh > > > >>> Among other > >>> more recent names we considered was VCloud -- Virtual Cloud as in > >>> cloud of > >>> clouds. Would VCloud be an acceptable ASF name? > >> > >> VCloud might be fine. Anything other than VCL. However, once it's > >> understood that the name has to change, it's the ASF community that > >> gets to decide on the new name. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Alan > >> > >>> Sam > >>> > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: Alan D. Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:17 AM > >>> To: vcl-dev@incubator.apache.org > >>> Subject: Re: VCL, is this name kosher? > >>> > >>> On Mar 2, 2009, at 6:31 PM, sam averitt wrote: > >>>> A simple suggestion on the name - that VCL be "transferred" to > >>>> Apache.org > >>>> and become the official project name. Current users of VCL already > >>>> wrap > >>>> their own identity around VCL. NC State would/could still use the > >>>> qualified > >>>> name NCSU VCL or NC State's VCL and others would/could do likewise. > >>>> For > >>>> example the Virginia group already calls their initiative Virginia > >>>> VCL. > >>> > >>> Unfortunately that's all the more reason for the ASF project to > >>> change > >>> its name. > >>> > >>>> I believe there are no specific acknowledg
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Mar 6, 2009, at 6:04 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu March 5 2009 4:55:01 pm Alan D. Cabrera wrote: On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:42 PM, sam averitt wrote: Question: Suppose the project name became CloudMaker. Would it not be permissible to call the NC State cloud, NCSU CloudMaker or NC State's CloudMaker? That would not be possible. Maybe one way to make it more clear is assume that NCSU is IBM and we are Amazon. Does this statement sound permissible: Would it be permissible to call the IBM cloud, IBM Electronic Computing Cloud or IBM's Electronic Computing Cloud? That would definitely not fly for either parties and, so, would not work here. So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what the name, either formal or common, AFS rules require a different name? Correct, our project name has to be different. This is the message I keep hearing (and by "hearing", I mean it is how I am interpreting what I read) that doesn't make any sense to me: "There must be a name for the project at ASF that isn't used anywhere else in the world for any similar project, and anyone who downloads and installs said project isn't allowed to use the ASF name in any way." That doesn't make sense to me because t's a normal business model to produce software that is to be sold and used by other people /without/ changing the name of the software, in fact, it would generally be considered wrong to change the name. An example similar to ours that I can think of is Blackboard software used for online courses. www.blackboard.com is the site for the company that develops it. If you do a google search for "allinurl:blackboard" you'll find many sites that have Blackboard installed and actually use "blackboard" in the URL. You are missing the point. I am not advocating changing the name just for the sake of changing the name. There is a conflict in naming between NCSU VCL and this project. It's that simple. I will repeat myself again here. NCSU VCL and its developers have a lot to be proud of. It's only natural that both, NCSU VCL and its developers at ASF VCL, would want to keep their association with the brand. That brand is only strengthened as departments from other universities join in and have their initiatives participate in the VCL brand. Unfortunately the ASF must remain independent this branding effort. We are not a business. We are an independent, non-profit, software foundation and we must remain free from such entanglements. Regards, Alan Josh Among other more recent names we considered was VCloud -- Virtual Cloud as in cloud of clouds. Would VCloud be an acceptable ASF name? VCloud might be fine. Anything other than VCL. However, once it's understood that the name has to change, it's the ASF community that gets to decide on the new name. Regards, Alan Sam -Original Message- From: Alan D. Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:17 AM To: vcl-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: VCL, is this name kosher? On Mar 2, 2009, at 6:31 PM, sam averitt wrote: A simple suggestion on the name - that VCL be "transferred" to Apache.org and become the official project name. Current users of VCL already wrap their own identity around VCL. NC State would/could still use the qualified name NCSU VCL or NC State's VCL and others would/could do likewise. For example the Virginia group already calls their initiative Virginia VCL. Unfortunately that's all the more reason for the ASF project to change its name. I believe there are no specific acknowledgement requirements for use of apache.org software? Meaning that anyone could add a personalized qualifier or not and a root linkage statement (like powered by Apache.org's VCL) or not. Project attribution should not be confused with with the department. To be sure NCSU could use Apache VCL, install it, use it, and provide attribution. However, having the progenitor keep its name, VCL, causes a conflict that needs to be resolved. This issue can easily be solved by having this project choose a new name. Seems to me that providing a combined personal identifier and default root linkage mechanism would help, not hurt the Apache brand. Attribution is always appreciated but it's a not very convincing argument for the ASF keeping a name that is at odds with its progenitor's and now other universities' project names, VCL. What I can say is that this assessment is consistent with and supported by our experience to date. NCSU VCL and its developers have a lot to be proud of. It's only natural that both, NCSU VCL and its developers at ASF VCL, would want to keep their association with the brand. That brand is only strengthened as departments from othe
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu March 5 2009 4:55:01 pm Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:42 PM, sam averitt wrote: > > Question: Suppose the project name became CloudMaker. Would it not be > > permissible to call the NC State cloud, NCSU CloudMaker or NC State's > > CloudMaker? > > That would not be possible. Maybe one way to make it more clear is > assume that NCSU is IBM and we are Amazon. Does this statement sound > permissible: > > Would it be permissible to call the IBM cloud, IBM Electronic > Computing Cloud or IBM's Electronic Computing Cloud? > > That would definitely not fly for either parties and, so, would not > work here. > > > So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what the name, > > either formal or common, AFS rules require a different name? > > Correct, our project name has to be different. This is the message I keep hearing (and by "hearing", I mean it is how I am interpreting what I read) that doesn't make any sense to me: "There must be a name for the project at ASF that isn't used anywhere else in the world for any similar project, and anyone who downloads and installs said project isn't allowed to use the ASF name in any way." That doesn't make sense to me because t's a normal business model to produce software that is to be sold and used by other people /without/ changing the name of the software, in fact, it would generally be considered wrong to change the name. An example similar to ours that I can think of is Blackboard software used for online courses. www.blackboard.com is the site for the company that develops it. If you do a google search for "allinurl:blackboard" you'll find many sites that have Blackboard installed and actually use "blackboard" in the URL. Josh > > Among other > > more recent names we considered was VCloud -- Virtual Cloud as in > > cloud of > > clouds. Would VCloud be an acceptable ASF name? > > VCloud might be fine. Anything other than VCL. However, once it's > understood that the name has to change, it's the ASF community that > gets to decide on the new name. > > > Regards, > Alan > > > Sam > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Alan D. Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:17 AM > > To: vcl-dev@incubator.apache.org > > Subject: Re: VCL, is this name kosher? > > > > On Mar 2, 2009, at 6:31 PM, sam averitt wrote: > >> A simple suggestion on the name - that VCL be "transferred" to > >> Apache.org > >> and become the official project name. Current users of VCL already > >> wrap > >> their own identity around VCL. NC State would/could still use the > >> qualified > >> name NCSU VCL or NC State's VCL and others would/could do likewise. > >> For > >> example the Virginia group already calls their initiative Virginia > >> VCL. > > > > Unfortunately that's all the more reason for the ASF project to change > > its name. > > > >> I believe there are no specific acknowledgement requirements for use > >> of > >> apache.org software? Meaning that anyone could add a personalized > >> qualifier > >> or not and a root linkage statement (like powered by Apache.org's > >> VCL) or > >> not. > > > > Project attribution should not be confused with with the department. > > To be sure NCSU could use Apache VCL, install it, use it, and provide > > attribution. However, having the progenitor keep its name, VCL, > > causes a conflict that needs to be resolved. This issue can easily be > > solved by having this project choose a new name. > > > >> Seems to me that providing a combined personal identifier and default > >> root linkage mechanism would help, not hurt the Apache brand. > > > > Attribution is always appreciated but it's a not very convincing > > argument for the ASF keeping a name that is at odds with its > > progenitor's and now other universities' project names, VCL. > > > >> What I can say > >> is that this assessment is consistent with and supported by our > >> experience > >> to date. > > > > NCSU VCL and its developers have a lot to be proud of. It's only > > natural that both, NCSU VCL and its developers at ASF VCL, would want > > to keep their association with the brand. That brand is only > > strengthened as departments from other universities join in and have > > their initiatives participate in the VCL brand. Unfortunately the ASF > > must remain independent this branding effort. > > > > > > Regards, > > Alan - -- - --- Josh Thompson Systems Programmer Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) North Carolina State University josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu 919-515-5323 my GPG/PGP key can be found at www.keyserver.net -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJsS17V/LQcNdtPQMRAkVGAJ9cdJnfS9AWpf0t4YBOq/1bzs5opQCeIIQU EhGdXJXSLVMBF5MBL2SXjp0= =wRZM -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:42 PM, sam averitt wrote: Question: Suppose the project name became CloudMaker. Would it not be permissible to call the NC State cloud, NCSU CloudMaker or NC State's CloudMaker? That would not be possible. Maybe one way to make it more clear is assume that NCSU is IBM and we are Amazon. Does this statement sound permissible: Would it be permissible to call the IBM cloud, IBM Electronic Computing Cloud or IBM's Electronic Computing Cloud? That would definitely not fly for either parties and, so, would not work here. So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what the name, either formal or common, AFS rules require a different name? Correct, our project name has to be different. Among other more recent names we considered was VCloud -- Virtual Cloud as in cloud of clouds. Would VCloud be an acceptable ASF name? VCloud might be fine. Anything other than VCL. However, once it's understood that the name has to change, it's the ASF community that gets to decide on the new name. Regards, Alan Sam -Original Message- From: Alan D. Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:17 AM To: vcl-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: VCL, is this name kosher? On Mar 2, 2009, at 6:31 PM, sam averitt wrote: A simple suggestion on the name - that VCL be "transferred" to Apache.org and become the official project name. Current users of VCL already wrap their own identity around VCL. NC State would/could still use the qualified name NCSU VCL or NC State's VCL and others would/could do likewise. For example the Virginia group already calls their initiative Virginia VCL. Unfortunately that's all the more reason for the ASF project to change its name. I believe there are no specific acknowledgement requirements for use of apache.org software? Meaning that anyone could add a personalized qualifier or not and a root linkage statement (like powered by Apache.org's VCL) or not. Project attribution should not be confused with with the department. To be sure NCSU could use Apache VCL, install it, use it, and provide attribution. However, having the progenitor keep its name, VCL, causes a conflict that needs to be resolved. This issue can easily be solved by having this project choose a new name. Seems to me that providing a combined personal identifier and default root linkage mechanism would help, not hurt the Apache brand. Attribution is always appreciated but it's a not very convincing argument for the ASF keeping a name that is at odds with its progenitor's and now other universities' project names, VCL. What I can say is that this assessment is consistent with and supported by our experience to date. NCSU VCL and its developers have a lot to be proud of. It's only natural that both, NCSU VCL and its developers at ASF VCL, would want to keep their association with the brand. That brand is only strengthened as departments from other universities join in and have their initiatives participate in the VCL brand. Unfortunately the ASF must remain independent this branding effort. Regards, Alan
RE: VCL, is this name kosher?
Matt, Question: Suppose the project name became CloudMaker. Would it not be permissible to call the NC State cloud, NCSU CloudMaker or NC State's CloudMaker? So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what the name, either formal or common, AFS rules require a different name? Among other more recent names we considered was VCloud -- Virtual Cloud as in cloud of clouds. Would VCloud be an acceptable AFS name? Sam -Original Message- From: Alan D. Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:17 AM To: vcl-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: VCL, is this name kosher? On Mar 2, 2009, at 6:31 PM, sam averitt wrote: > A simple suggestion on the name - that VCL be "transferred" to > Apache.org > and become the official project name. Current users of VCL already > wrap > their own identity around VCL. NC State would/could still use the > qualified > name NCSU VCL or NC State's VCL and others would/could do likewise. > For > example the Virginia group already calls their initiative Virginia > VCL. Unfortunately that's all the more reason for the ASF project to change its name. > I believe there are no specific acknowledgement requirements for use > of > apache.org software? Meaning that anyone could add a personalized > qualifier > or not and a root linkage statement (like powered by Apache.org's > VCL) or > not. Project attribution should not be confused with with the department. To be sure NCSU could use Apache VCL, install it, use it, and provide attribution. However, having the progenitor keep its name, VCL, causes a conflict that needs to be resolved. This issue can easily be solved by having this project choose a new name. > Seems to me that providing a combined personal identifier and default > root linkage mechanism would help, not hurt the Apache brand. Attribution is always appreciated but it's a not very convincing argument for the ASF keeping a name that is at odds with its progenitor's and now other universities' project names, VCL. > What I can say > is that this assessment is consistent with and supported by our > experience > to date. NCSU VCL and its developers have a lot to be proud of. It's only natural that both, NCSU VCL and its developers at ASF VCL, would want to keep their association with the brand. That brand is only strengthened as departments from other universities join in and have their initiatives participate in the VCL brand. Unfortunately the ASF must remain independent this branding effort. Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Mar 2, 2009, at 6:31 PM, sam averitt wrote: A simple suggestion on the name - that VCL be "transferred" to Apache.org and become the official project name. Current users of VCL already wrap their own identity around VCL. NC State would/could still use the qualified name NCSU VCL or NC State's VCL and others would/could do likewise. For example the Virginia group already calls their initiative Virginia VCL. Unfortunately that's all the more reason for the ASF project to change its name. I believe there are no specific acknowledgement requirements for use of apache.org software? Meaning that anyone could add a personalized qualifier or not and a root linkage statement (like powered by Apache.org's VCL) or not. Project attribution should not be confused with with the department. To be sure NCSU could use Apache VCL, install it, use it, and provide attribution. However, having the progenitor keep its name, VCL, causes a conflict that needs to be resolved. This issue can easily be solved by having this project choose a new name. Seems to me that providing a combined personal identifier and default root linkage mechanism would help, not hurt the Apache brand. Attribution is always appreciated but it's a not very convincing argument for the ASF keeping a name that is at odds with its progenitor's and now other universities' project names, VCL. What I can say is that this assessment is consistent with and supported by our experience to date. NCSU VCL and its developers have a lot to be proud of. It's only natural that both, NCSU VCL and its developers at ASF VCL, would want to keep their association with the brand. That brand is only strengthened as departments from other universities join in and have their initiatives participate in the VCL brand. Unfortunately the ASF must remain independent this branding effort. Regards, Alan
RE: VCL, is this name kosher?
Matt, A simple suggestion on the name - that VCL be "transferred" to Apache.org and become the official project name. Current users of VCL already wrap their own identity around VCL. NC State would/could still use the qualified name NCSU VCL or NC State's VCL and others would/could do likewise. For example the Virginia group already calls their initiative Virginia VCL. I believe there are no specific acknowledgement requirements for use of apache.org software? Meaning that anyone could add a personalized qualifier or not and a root linkage statement (like powered by Apache.org's VCL) or not. Seems to me that providing a combined personal identifier and default root linkage mechanism would help, not hurt the Apache brand. What I can say is that this assessment is consistent with and supported by our experience to date. Sam -Original Message- From: Alan D. Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:47 PM To: vcl-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: VCL, is this name kosher? On Feb 25, 2009, at 12:51 PM, Henry E Schaffer wrote: > We've had lots of points of view, perhaps showing that we have a > diversity of starting points and understandings. > > Is there an Apache Foundation doc (beyond the naming guidelines) that > gives us a common starting point? Other than this http://www.apache.org/dev/project-names.html I don't think so. Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Feb 25, 2009, at 12:51 PM, Henry E Schaffer wrote: We've had lots of points of view, perhaps showing that we have a diversity of starting points and understandings. Is there an Apache Foundation doc (beyond the naming guidelines) that gives us a common starting point? Other than this http://www.apache.org/dev/project-names.html I don't think so. Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
We've had lots of points of view, perhaps showing that we have a diversity of starting points and understandings. Is there an Apache Foundation doc (beyond the naming guidelines) that gives us a common starting point? -- --henry schaffer
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Feb 24, 2009, at 6:53 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote: John writes: Given Alan's assessment below, there appears to be an impasse without changing the project name. What impasse? Alan is quoting Matt - who seems to say that if NC State does not have a separate project - and is just powering its production with Apache VCL (and says so) that solves the problem of the conflict between Apache and NC State appearing to have two different projects on the same topic. That leaves the aspect of whether it makes any difference whether or not anybody spells out VCL as Virtual Computing Lab. Personally, I don't see this as an additional problem - any name or acronym needs a further description - both at NC State and at Apache. Even if we change the name at NC State to something like "cloudseed" - we're likely to say "Cloudseed is a virtual computing lab ..." At Apache some of the documentation is likely to say "Apache VCL is a virtual computing lab ..." That would put us back into the same imagined conflict. This is clearly not the same and it would not pull you into the "imagined" conflict. Why can't we just make it clear that we're following Matt's #2 2. NCSU consumes the project from Apache and is the NCSU Virtual Computing Lab Powered by Apache VCL. by changing our VCL web site to make explicit that our production system is "powered by" the code from the Apache project - and that would save a ton of effort all around? (e.g. then we wouldn't have to change a) the URL that all our students and faculty have been using for years from vcl.ncsu.edu to cloudseed.ncsu.edu, b) change vcl_h...@ncsu.edu to cloudseed_h...@ncsu.edu, c) get ECU, JohnstonCC, MCNC, NCCU, UNCG, WakeTech and WCU also to make the same changes, ...) I am not proposing that NCSU change all its literature, website, email, etc. I am proposing that this incubating project change its name; something that happens a lot when projects are incubating in the ASF and there is a naming conflict. Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Feb 24, 2009, at 7:12 AM, John Bass wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote: John writes: Given Alan's assessment below, there appears to be an impasse without changing the project name. What impasse? The impasse (possibly a poor word choice) is formed by an intersection of the following: - Matt's assessment is ncsu established the name vcl as a label for a production service at ncsu and changing the name of the production service does not break this association. - One necessary condition leading to graduation requires that voting members determine that project naming is independent of any institution/ company and 'belongs' to the community. - We want to name the asf project 'vcl' and change the name of the ncsu production service. I'm a little confused about the voting process, but it seems that we don't get to vote for our own graduation. Given that, it appears we need to do what Matt/Alan say since they vote and we want the project to graduate. I am constantly being reminded by my wife and her mother that the world does not revolve around me and this is no exception. :) I can easily be outvoted by the other Incubator PMC members but it is my personal belief that I will not. We would never allow corporate entities to retain such a connection regardless of how many disclaimers are sprinkled on their web site and I don't see how an educational institution would be any different. Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote: > John writes: > > Given Alan's assessment below, there appears to be an impasse without > > changing the project name. > > What impasse? The impasse (possibly a poor word choice) is formed by an intersection of the following: - Matt's assessment is ncsu established the name vcl as a label for a production service at ncsu and changing the name of the production service does not break this association. - One necessary condition leading to graduation requires that voting members determine that project naming is independent of any institution/company and 'belongs' to the community. - We want to name the asf project 'vcl' and change the name of the ncsu production service. I'm a little confused about the voting process, but it seems that we don't get to vote for our own graduation. Given that, it appears we need to do what Matt/Alan say since they vote and we want the project to graduate. Alan is quoting Matt - who seems to say that if NC State does not have > a separate project - and is just powering its production with Apache VCL > (and says so) that solves the problem of the conflict between Apache and > NC State appearing to have two different projects on the same topic. > > That leaves the aspect of whether it makes any difference whether or > not anybody spells out VCL as Virtual Computing Lab. Personally, I > don't see this as an additional problem - any name or acronym needs a > further description - both at NC State and at Apache. Even if we change > the name at NC State to something like "cloudseed" - we're likely to say > "Cloudseed is a virtual computing lab ..." At Apache some of the > documentation is likely to say "Apache VCL is a virtual computing lab ..." > That would put us back into the same imagined conflict. > > Why can't we just make it clear that we're following Matt's #2 > > 2. NCSU consumes the project from Apache and is the NCSU Virtual > Computing > > Lab Powered by Apache VCL. > by changing our VCL web site to make explicit that our production system > is "powered by" the code from the Apache project - and that would save > a ton of effort all around? > > (e.g. then we wouldn't have to change a) the URL that all our students > and faculty have been using for years from vcl.ncsu.edu to > cloudseed.ncsu.edu, b) change vcl_h...@ncsu.edu to > cloudseed_h...@ncsu.edu, c) get ECU, JohnstonCC, MCNC, NCCU, UNCG, > WakeTech and WCU also to make the same changes, ...) > > > ... > > --henry >
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
John writes: > Given Alan's assessment below, there appears to be an impasse without > changing the project name. What impasse? Alan is quoting Matt - who seems to say that if NC State does not have a separate project - and is just powering its production with Apache VCL (and says so) that solves the problem of the conflict between Apache and NC State appearing to have two different projects on the same topic. That leaves the aspect of whether it makes any difference whether or not anybody spells out VCL as Virtual Computing Lab. Personally, I don't see this as an additional problem - any name or acronym needs a further description - both at NC State and at Apache. Even if we change the name at NC State to something like "cloudseed" - we're likely to say "Cloudseed is a virtual computing lab ..." At Apache some of the documentation is likely to say "Apache VCL is a virtual computing lab ..." That would put us back into the same imagined conflict. Why can't we just make it clear that we're following Matt's #2 > 2. NCSU consumes the project from Apache and is the NCSU Virtual Computing > Lab Powered by Apache VCL. by changing our VCL web site to make explicit that our production system is "powered by" the code from the Apache project - and that would save a ton of effort all around? (e.g. then we wouldn't have to change a) the URL that all our students and faculty have been using for years from vcl.ncsu.edu to cloudseed.ncsu.edu, b) change vcl_h...@ncsu.edu to cloudseed_h...@ncsu.edu, c) get ECU, JohnstonCC, MCNC, NCCU, UNCG, WakeTech and WCU also to make the same changes, ...) > ... --henry
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
Given Alan's assessment below, there appears to be an impasse without changing the project name. I propose we resolve this by suggesting names and conducting a vote by either instant runoff ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting) or exhaustive ballot ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaustive_ballot). I prefer exhaustive ballot since there is no real benefit in ending the process with one vote. If we get stuck while using exhastive ballot, we can resolve by irv. To start the process, here are a few name ideas: - cloud provisioning engine - cpe - cloudbuilder - datacenter builder - cloudseed - rainmaker John Bass john_b...@ncsu.edu www.cnl.ncsu.edu (919) 515-0154 *From: *"Alan D. Cabrera" > > *Date: *February 22, 2009 10:54:48 AM EST > *To: *vcl-...@incubator.apache.org > *Subject: **Re: VCL, is this name kosher?* > *Reply-To: *vcl-...@incubator.apache.org > > The VCL team has built a wonderful product and it's admirable that they > wish to move the project to ASF. They have a lot to be proud of and I agree > it's understandable why they would wish to retain the VCL name. > > On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote: > > 2. NCSU consumes the project from Apache and is the NCSU Virtual Computing > Lab Powered by Apache VCL. > > > The second option sounds like what is more like where we are, or at least > this is where we are going. If that is the case then the real question is > does NCSU need to not use the Virtual Computing Lab name. I don't see a > problem with that (although some Apache volunteer lawyers should probably > comment on this) as one is a place and the other is a thing (code). > > > NCSU VCL is not a natural landmark in North Carolina. Apache VCL is not a > thing, its a project. NCSU VCL is the progenitor of the VCL project which > has moved to Apache VCL. > > VCL stands for Virtual Computing Lab. Simply breaking out the acronym in > one case and not the other does not obfuscate the obvious connection. > > > Regards, > Alan > > >
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Josh, The real challenge in all of this is making sure that you are wearing the correct hat. The ASF does not recognize corporations (or universities) as such with exception to code grant provided by them. The ASF looks at this project as a standalone entity that is complete separate from NCSU. The committers are volunteering their time to this project because they are interested in it, not because someone is paying them to do this work. Certainly there are times where a person's passion lines up with how they are making a living but that is considered a good situation. In order for this project to graduate from Incubator to a TLP it has to demonstrate a working independence from its origins. As far as the ASF is concerned, if NCSU decided to not continue investing in this area would the project die. If that is the case, then it is not truly an independent community. Our goal in the Incubator is to build that independent community. There have been many times since November that the issue of the name came up. The fact that it is inextricably linked to NCSU makes it hard for people to objectively say that it is a separate community. I'm not being critical, just trying to state the obvious. To be honest, if the name was changed but there was still a clear tie to NCSU the project would still have difficulty getting the support to graduate from the Incubator. I for one could not support it based on where w are at today. Time will tell. Matt On Feb 23, 2009, at 11:06 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: I'm wearing my NCSU hat while writing this email. NCSU is absolutely doing #2 and actively making an effort to *not* do #1. I just realized that some of the confusion is probably coming from content at the vcl.ncsu.edu website. There is a lot of information there that would lead people to think we may be doing #1. Consider all of that content to be old and just not yet updated. We've held off on updating it because of all of this discussion about the name. We'd rather not go to all of the trouble to change everything there to talk about VCL being developed at ASF and then end up changing the ASF name to something other than VCL, causing us to have to change everything again to reflect the new name. Josh -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkmi5OoACgkQMsHW7w8UO8GjxwCfWdA/8iXMG2G9fV3d9k/2KpQ4 MBcAn07v8rrDWjIyu1d4nOXn1aH5Hnn2 =lTpG -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I'm wearing my NCSU hat while writing this email. NCSU is absolutely doing #2 and actively making an effort to *not* do #1. I just realized that some of the confusion is probably coming from content at the vcl.ncsu.edu website. There is a lot of information there that would lead people to think we may be doing #1. Consider all of that content to be old and just not yet updated. We've held off on updating it because of all of this discussion about the name. We'd rather not go to all of the trouble to change everything there to talk about VCL being developed at ASF and then end up changing the ASF name to something other than VCL, causing us to have to change everything again to reflect the new name. Josh On Saturday February 21, 2009, Matt Hogstrom wrote: > From my vantage point I see a few things going on. First, there is a > strong affiliation between the developers of Apache VCL with their > roots at NCSU. Makes sense as that was the genesis of the project and > I think many of those involved are still active at the university. > Second, there is a sense of abandoning that relationship if we change > the name at Apache. I haven't heard from Mladen who was one of the > project sponsors and commiters on this topic, perhaps he has some > insight as he was involved i the genesis work at the University as > well as a strong proponent of the move to Apache. > > I don't see a problem continuing with the name if, and here is the > crux of the issue, there is not another work that has the same name, > developed by largely the same people and doing the same thing as this > project. If there is, that is a problem. It diminishes the value of > the project at Apache and it confuses people. In essence, the > community at Apache is willing to take the Apache brand and not > willing to commit the project to Apache. I'm not saying that is what > is happening, that appearance is there though. > > Here are the scenarios I see: > > 1. NCSU builds and distributes a codebase called VCL and the same > group works at Apache doing the same thing with the same name. > > 2. NCSU consumes the project from Apache and is the NCSU Virtual > Computing Lab Powered by Apache VCL. > > The first option is not acceptable. If that is the scenario that is > occurring then the current community will have to choose a location. > You can't do both. > > The second option sounds like what is more like where we are, or at > least this is where we are going. If that is the case then the real > question is does NCSU need to not use the Virtual Computing Lab name. > I don't see a problem with that (although some Apache volunteer > lawyers should probably comment on this) as one is a place and the > other is a thing (code). > > So we need to be precise about which entity is doing and what they are > claiming. > > Can someone from NCSU provide a definitive statement on this? We > CANNOT leave this as ambiguous. > > Matt > > On Feb 19, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > > You are confusing the installation with the department. To be sure > > NCSU could use Apache VCL, even install and use it. However, > > having the progenitor keep its name, VCL, causes a conflict that > > needs to be resolved. > > > > > > Regards, > > Alan > > > > On Feb 19, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: > >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > >> Hash: SHA1 > >> > >> But what does it mean to "stop using theirs"? Does it mean the > >> letters "VCL" > >> cannot appear anywhere at their site? (I feel really weird saying > >> "their" > >> since I'm employed at NCSU, but I'll try to stick to saying this > >> with my ASF > >> hat on). > >> > >> I feel really strongly that we (ASF) should continue using VCL as > >> the name for > >> the project because that's what it has been know as for the last 5 > >> years. > >> So, I want to work toward figuring out what NCSU must do to allow > >> that to > >> happen. If everything at NCSU gets changed to "Apache VCL at > >> NCSU", would > >> that work? The goal of moving VCL from NCSU to ASF is to allow > >> more people > >> to get involved in development of it, and thus have it used at more > >> places. > >> So, it would make sense to me for multiple places to be able to > >> call their > >> install of it "Apache VCL at ". > >> > >> Josh > >> > >> On Thursday February 19, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > >>> As Matt pointed out there needs to be a distinction between this ASF > >>> project and its original progenitor, NCSU VCL. It's quite simple, > >>> either we change our name or they stop using theirs. > >>> > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Alan > >>> > >>> On Jan 6, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there > anything that > *can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF? > > Josh > > On Tues
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
The VCL team has built a wonderful product and it's admirable that they wish to move the project to ASF. They have a lot to be proud of and I agree it's understandable why they would wish to retain the VCL name. On Feb 21, 2009, at 2:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote: 2. NCSU consumes the project from Apache and is the NCSU Virtual Computing Lab Powered by Apache VCL. The second option sounds like what is more like where we are, or at least this is where we are going. If that is the case then the real question is does NCSU need to not use the Virtual Computing Lab name. I don't see a problem with that (although some Apache volunteer lawyers should probably comment on this) as one is a place and the other is a thing (code). NCSU VCL is not a natural landmark in North Carolina. Apache VCL is not a thing, its a project. NCSU VCL is the progenitor of the VCL project which has moved to Apache VCL. VCL stands for Virtual Computing Lab. Simply breaking out the acronym in one case and not the other does not obfuscate the obvious connection. Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 From my vantage point I see a few things going on. First, there is a strong affiliation between the developers of Apache VCL with their roots at NCSU. Makes sense as that was the genesis of the project and I think many of those involved are still active at the university. Second, there is a sense of abandoning that relationship if we change the name at Apache. I haven't heard from Mladen who was one of the project sponsors and commiters on this topic, perhaps he has some insight as he was involved i the genesis work at the University as well as a strong proponent of the move to Apache. I don't see a problem continuing with the name if, and here is the crux of the issue, there is not another work that has the same name, developed by largely the same people and doing the same thing as this project. If there is, that is a problem. It diminishes the value of the project at Apache and it confuses people. In essence, the community at Apache is willing to take the Apache brand and not willing to commit the project to Apache. I'm not saying that is what is happening, that appearance is there though. Here are the scenarios I see: 1. NCSU builds and distributes a codebase called VCL and the same group works at Apache doing the same thing with the same name. 2. NCSU consumes the project from Apache and is the NCSU Virtual Computing Lab Powered by Apache VCL. The first option is not acceptable. If that is the scenario that is occurring then the current community will have to choose a location. You can't do both. The second option sounds like what is more like where we are, or at least this is where we are going. If that is the case then the real question is does NCSU need to not use the Virtual Computing Lab name. I don't see a problem with that (although some Apache volunteer lawyers should probably comment on this) as one is a place and the other is a thing (code). So we need to be precise about which entity is doing and what they are claiming. Can someone from NCSU provide a definitive statement on this? We CANNOT leave this as ambiguous. Matt On Feb 19, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: You are confusing the installation with the department. To be sure NCSU could use Apache VCL, even install and use it. However, having the progenitor keep its name, VCL, causes a conflict that needs to be resolved. Regards, Alan On Feb 19, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 But what does it mean to "stop using theirs"? Does it mean the letters "VCL" cannot appear anywhere at their site? (I feel really weird saying "their" since I'm employed at NCSU, but I'll try to stick to saying this with my ASF hat on). I feel really strongly that we (ASF) should continue using VCL as the name for the project because that's what it has been know as for the last 5 years. So, I want to work toward figuring out what NCSU must do to allow that to happen. If everything at NCSU gets changed to "Apache VCL at NCSU", would that work? The goal of moving VCL from NCSU to ASF is to allow more people to get involved in development of it, and thus have it used at more places. So, it would make sense to me for multiple places to be able to call their install of it "Apache VCL at ". Josh On Thursday February 19, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: As Matt pointed out there needs to be a distinction between this ASF project and its original progenitor, NCSU VCL. It's quite simple, either we change our name or they stop using theirs. Regards, Alan On Jan 6, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there anything that *can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF? Josh On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: Thanks for your comments Matt. Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up. This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate. Regards, Alan On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote: Alan, Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in reverse order. First is the identity of the community. The move of the development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation, perhaps a different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's community. As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hos
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
Me three.
Steve
Brian Bouterse wrote:
I like this idea also for the same reasons John mentions.
Brian
Brian Bouterse
Secure Open Systems Initiative
919.698.8796
On Feb 19, 2009, at 11:12 AM, John Bass wrote:
For what it's worth, I like Josh's idea for several reasons:
- production ncsu service runs from the apache code
- its a great way for ncsu to help promote the apache project
- it helps maintain the community that has been building over the years
- appears to me (a newbee) to support the apache naming policy
John Bass
john_b...@ncsu.edu
www.cnl.ncsu.edu
(919) 515-0154
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Josh Thompson
wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
But what does it mean to "stop using theirs"? Does it mean the letters
"VCL"
cannot appear anywhere at their site? (I feel really weird saying
"their"
since I'm employed at NCSU, but I'll try to stick to saying this with my
ASF
hat on).
I feel really strongly that we (ASF) should continue using VCL as the
name
for
the project because that's what it has been know as for the last 5
years.
So, I want to work toward figuring out what NCSU must do to allow
that to
happen. If everything at NCSU gets changed to "Apache VCL at NCSU",
would
that work? The goal of moving VCL from NCSU to ASF is to allow more
people
to get involved in development of it, and thus have it used at more
places.
So, it would make sense to me for multiple places to be able to call
their
install of it "Apache VCL at ".
Josh
On Thursday February 19, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
As Matt pointed out there needs to be a distinction between this ASF
project and its original progenitor, NCSU VCL. It's quite simple,
either we change our name or they stop using theirs.
Regards,
Alan
On Jan 6, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
anything that
*can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
Josh
On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Thanks for your comments Matt.
Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
Regards,
Alan
On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the
development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the
formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation, perhaps a
different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is, well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
(ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its
web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
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O7WjXdHQWfQ6B3uUTkTr9+g=
=iwnz
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFJnX/rV/LQcNdtPQMRAi37AJ9rlm1xO0s76LkhA0XbvU5XCQkEeACfQ1Zg
08/+XKmuBe0HDLfJDogNMKc=
=NPtg
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
You are confusing the installation with the department. To be sure
NCSU could use Apache VCL, even install and use it. However, having
the progenitor keep its name, VCL, causes a conflict that needs to be
resolved.
Regards,
Alan
On Feb 19, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
But what does it mean to "stop using theirs"? Does it mean the
letters "VCL"
cannot appear anywhere at their site? (I feel really weird saying
"their"
since I'm employed at NCSU, but I'll try to stick to saying this
with my ASF
hat on).
I feel really strongly that we (ASF) should continue using VCL as
the name for
the project because that's what it has been know as for the last 5
years.
So, I want to work toward figuring out what NCSU must do to allow
that to
happen. If everything at NCSU gets changed to "Apache VCL at NCSU",
would
that work? The goal of moving VCL from NCSU to ASF is to allow more
people
to get involved in development of it, and thus have it used at more
places.
So, it would make sense to me for multiple places to be able to call
their
install of it "Apache VCL at ".
Josh
On Thursday February 19, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
As Matt pointed out there needs to be a distinction between this ASF
project and its original progenitor, NCSU VCL. It's quite simple,
either we change our name or they stop using theirs.
Regards,
Alan
On Jan 6, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
anything that
*can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
Josh
On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Thanks for your comments Matt.
Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
Regards,
Alan
On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there
are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the
development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked
the
formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation,
perhaps a
different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's
community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is,
well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
(ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to
assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be
resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its
web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the
ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and
potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
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=iwnz
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
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=NPtg
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Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
As do I. NCSU's implementation of VCL is not a separate product. A similar
product with the same name isn't being used elsewhere. The move of VCL from
NCSU to ASF has been well-publicized.
It seems to me that the naming guidelines make a stronger argument supporting
the use of VCL as the project name than otherwise.
(http://www.apache.org/dev/project-names.html)
The point which seems most pertinent to me is:
-Reduce the likelihood of confusion
Using a name other than VCL at either Apache or NCSU will cause great confusion.
Another point in the guidelines which supports using VCL as the project name:
-See this as an important marketing opportunity, rather than a bother.
Many people already know about VCL. Academic papers have been published. Talks
have been given. News has been written and broadcast. I think it is to
Apache's advantage to use the VCL name.
-Andy
Brian Bouterse wrote:
I like this idea also for the same reasons John mentions.
Brian
Brian Bouterse
Secure Open Systems Initiative
919.698.8796
On Feb 19, 2009, at 11:12 AM, John Bass wrote:
For what it's worth, I like Josh's idea for several reasons:
- production ncsu service runs from the apache code
- its a great way for ncsu to help promote the apache project
- it helps maintain the community that has been building over the years
- appears to me (a newbee) to support the apache naming policy
John Bass
john_b...@ncsu.edu
www.cnl.ncsu.edu
(919) 515-0154
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Josh Thompson
wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
But what does it mean to "stop using theirs"? Does it mean the letters
"VCL"
cannot appear anywhere at their site? (I feel really weird saying
"their"
since I'm employed at NCSU, but I'll try to stick to saying this with my
ASF
hat on).
I feel really strongly that we (ASF) should continue using VCL as the
name
for
the project because that's what it has been know as for the last 5
years.
So, I want to work toward figuring out what NCSU must do to allow
that to
happen. If everything at NCSU gets changed to "Apache VCL at NCSU",
would
that work? The goal of moving VCL from NCSU to ASF is to allow more
people
to get involved in development of it, and thus have it used at more
places.
So, it would make sense to me for multiple places to be able to call
their
install of it "Apache VCL at ".
Josh
On Thursday February 19, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
As Matt pointed out there needs to be a distinction between this ASF
project and its original progenitor, NCSU VCL. It's quite simple,
either we change our name or they stop using theirs.
Regards,
Alan
On Jan 6, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
anything that
*can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
Josh
On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Thanks for your comments Matt.
Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
Regards,
Alan
On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the
development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the
formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation, perhaps a
different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is, well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
(ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its
web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
users
that it's t
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
I like this idea also for the same reasons John mentions.
Brian
Brian Bouterse
Secure Open Systems Initiative
919.698.8796
On Feb 19, 2009, at 11:12 AM, John Bass wrote:
For what it's worth, I like Josh's idea for several reasons:
- production ncsu service runs from the apache code
- its a great way for ncsu to help promote the apache project
- it helps maintain the community that has been building over the
years
- appears to me (a newbee) to support the apache naming policy
John Bass
john_b...@ncsu.edu
www.cnl.ncsu.edu
(919) 515-0154
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Josh Thompson >wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
But what does it mean to "stop using theirs"? Does it mean the
letters
"VCL"
cannot appear anywhere at their site? (I feel really weird saying
"their"
since I'm employed at NCSU, but I'll try to stick to saying this
with my
ASF
hat on).
I feel really strongly that we (ASF) should continue using VCL as
the name
for
the project because that's what it has been know as for the last 5
years.
So, I want to work toward figuring out what NCSU must do to allow
that to
happen. If everything at NCSU gets changed to "Apache VCL at
NCSU", would
that work? The goal of moving VCL from NCSU to ASF is to allow
more people
to get involved in development of it, and thus have it used at more
places.
So, it would make sense to me for multiple places to be able to
call their
install of it "Apache VCL at ".
Josh
On Thursday February 19, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
As Matt pointed out there needs to be a distinction between this ASF
project and its original progenitor, NCSU VCL. It's quite simple,
either we change our name or they stop using theirs.
Regards,
Alan
On Jan 6, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
anything that
*can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
Josh
On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Thanks for your comments Matt.
Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
Regards,
Alan
On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there
are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the
development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked
the
formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation,
perhaps a
different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's
community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is,
well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
(ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to
assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be
resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its
web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would
the ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and
potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFJY4RhV/LQcNdtPQMRAtNJAJ9CViggEk5XIPl5DH/Q+cL2JerOoQCbBHsv
O7WjXdHQWfQ6B3uUTkTr9+g=
=iwnz
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFJnX/rV/LQcNdtPQMRAi37AJ9rlm1xO0s76LkhA0XbvU5XCQkEeACfQ1Zg
08/+XKmuBe0HDLfJDogNMKc=
=NPtg
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
For what it's worth, I like Josh's idea for several reasons:
- production ncsu service runs from the apache code
- its a great way for ncsu to help promote the apache project
- it helps maintain the community that has been building over the years
- appears to me (a newbee) to support the apache naming policy
John Bass
john_b...@ncsu.edu
www.cnl.ncsu.edu
(919) 515-0154
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> But what does it mean to "stop using theirs"? Does it mean the letters
> "VCL"
> cannot appear anywhere at their site? (I feel really weird saying "their"
> since I'm employed at NCSU, but I'll try to stick to saying this with my
> ASF
> hat on).
>
> I feel really strongly that we (ASF) should continue using VCL as the name
> for
> the project because that's what it has been know as for the last 5 years.
> So, I want to work toward figuring out what NCSU must do to allow that to
> happen. If everything at NCSU gets changed to "Apache VCL at NCSU", would
> that work? The goal of moving VCL from NCSU to ASF is to allow more people
> to get involved in development of it, and thus have it used at more places.
> So, it would make sense to me for multiple places to be able to call their
> install of it "Apache VCL at ".
>
> Josh
>
> On Thursday February 19, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> > As Matt pointed out there needs to be a distinction between this ASF
> > project and its original progenitor, NCSU VCL. It's quite simple,
> > either we change our name or they stop using theirs.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Alan
> >
> > On Jan 6, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
> > > anything that
> > > *can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
> > >
> > > Josh
> > >
> > > On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> > >> Thanks for your comments Matt.
> > >>
> > >> Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
> > >> This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Alan
> > >>
> > >> On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> > >>> Alan,
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a
> > >>> few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
> > >>> need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
> > >>> identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
> > >>> reverse order.
> > >>>
> > >>> First is the identity of the community. The move of the
> > >>> development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the
> > >>> formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
> > >>> decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
> > >>> community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation, perhaps a
> > >>> different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
> > >>> between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's community.
> > >>>
> > >>> As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is, well,
> > >>> virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
> > >>> (ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
> > >>>
> > >>> On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
> > Alan writes:
> > > ...
> > > If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign
> > > the
> > > trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
> > > name.
> >
> > OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
> > think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
> >
> > If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
> > ownership
> > to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its
> > web
> > site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
> >
> > Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
> > doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
> > ASF to use
> > "VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF
> > use
> > "AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
> > which
> > would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
> > users
> > that it's the same project.)
> >
> > Does the above make sense?
> > --
> > --henry schaffer
> > >
> > > - --
> > > - ---
> > > Josh Thompson
> > > Systems Programmer
> > > Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
> > > North Carolina State University
> > >
> > > josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
> > > 919-515-5323
> > >
> > > my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> > >
> > > iD8DBQFJY4RhV/LQcNdtPQMRAtNJAJ9CViggEk5XIPl5DH/Q+cL2
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
But what does it mean to "stop using theirs"? Does it mean the letters "VCL"
cannot appear anywhere at their site? (I feel really weird saying "their"
since I'm employed at NCSU, but I'll try to stick to saying this with my ASF
hat on).
I feel really strongly that we (ASF) should continue using VCL as the name for
the project because that's what it has been know as for the last 5 years.
So, I want to work toward figuring out what NCSU must do to allow that to
happen. If everything at NCSU gets changed to "Apache VCL at NCSU", would
that work? The goal of moving VCL from NCSU to ASF is to allow more people
to get involved in development of it, and thus have it used at more places.
So, it would make sense to me for multiple places to be able to call their
install of it "Apache VCL at ".
Josh
On Thursday February 19, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> As Matt pointed out there needs to be a distinction between this ASF
> project and its original progenitor, NCSU VCL. It's quite simple,
> either we change our name or they stop using theirs.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
> On Jan 6, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
> > anything that
> > *can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
> >
> > Josh
> >
> > On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> >> Thanks for your comments Matt.
> >>
> >> Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
> >> This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Alan
> >>
> >> On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> >>> Alan,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a
> >>> few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
> >>> need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
> >>> identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
> >>> reverse order.
> >>>
> >>> First is the identity of the community. The move of the
> >>> development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the
> >>> formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
> >>> decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
> >>> community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation, perhaps a
> >>> different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
> >>> between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's community.
> >>>
> >>> As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is, well,
> >>> virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
> >>> (ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
> >>>
> >>> On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
> Alan writes:
> > ...
> > If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign
> > the
> > trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
> > name.
>
> OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
> think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
>
> If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
> ownership
> to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its
> web
> site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
>
> Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
> doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
> ASF to use
> "VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF
> use
> "AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
> which
> would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
> users
> that it's the same project.)
>
> Does the above make sense?
> --
> --henry schaffer
> >
> > - --
> > - ---
> > Josh Thompson
> > Systems Programmer
> > Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
> > North Carolina State University
> >
> > josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
> > 919-515-5323
> >
> > my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> >
> > iD8DBQFJY4RhV/LQcNdtPQMRAtNJAJ9CViggEk5XIPl5DH/Q+cL2JerOoQCbBHsv
> > O7WjXdHQWfQ6B3uUTkTr9+g=
> > =iwnz
> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFJnX/rV/LQcNdtPQMRAi37AJ9rlm1xO0s76LkhA0XbvU5XCQkEeACfQ1Zg
08/+XKmuBe0HDLfJDogNMKc=
=NPtg
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
As Matt pointed out there needs to be a distinction between this ASF
project and its original progenitor, NCSU VCL. It's quite simple,
either we change our name or they stop using theirs.
Regards,
Alan
On Jan 6, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
anything that
*can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
Josh
On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Thanks for your comments Matt.
Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
Regards,
Alan
On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the
development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the
formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation, perhaps a
different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is, well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
(ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its
web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFJY4RhV/LQcNdtPQMRAtNJAJ9CViggEk5XIPl5DH/Q+cL2JerOoQCbBHsv
O7WjXdHQWfQ6B3uUTkTr9+g=
=iwnz
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Feb 19, 2009, at 7:03 AM, Brian Bouterse wrote:
Within the world of apache nothing. Do all acronyms drip with
meaning in Apache or do some just pick a few letters?
You're being coy with me. It's obvious that the meaning of VCL is the
same as what NCSU uses.
There hasn't been a lot of discussion on this topic, yet it needs
resolution. When does this get put to vote?
You will not get my binding vote. I suspect you may have difficulty
getting other binding votes when you try to push this issue through in
this manner.
Regards,
Alan
Best,
Brian
Brian Bouterse
Secure Open Systems Initiative
919.698.8796
On Feb 18, 2009, at 11:12 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
What does VCL stand for then?
Regards,
Alan
On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:35 AM, Brian Bouterse wrote:
I wanted to revisit this thread, because no conclusion was
reached. The current status is that after much discussion on the
list, no name changes were proposed, or ratified.
There are ASF naming guidelines located here. Personally, I
interpret this as a non-issue because the NCSU service is called
the "Virtual Computing Lab," and the ASF project name is "VCL"
which is not the same.
What do you think?
my 2 cents,
Brian
Brian Bouterse
Secure Open Systems Initiative
919.698.8796
On Jan 6, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
anything that
*can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
Josh
On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Thanks for your comments Matt.
Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
Regards,
Alan
On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there
are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the
development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked
the
formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation,
perhaps a
different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's
community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is,
well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
(ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to
assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be
resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue
its web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would
the ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and
potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
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=iwnz
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Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
Within the world of apache nothing. Do all acronyms drip with meaning
in Apache or do some just pick a few letters?
There hasn't been a lot of discussion on this topic, yet it needs
resolution. When does this get put to vote?
Best,
Brian
Brian Bouterse
Secure Open Systems Initiative
919.698.8796
On Feb 18, 2009, at 11:12 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
What does VCL stand for then?
Regards,
Alan
On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:35 AM, Brian Bouterse wrote:
I wanted to revisit this thread, because no conclusion was
reached. The current status is that after much discussion on the
list, no name changes were proposed, or ratified.
There are ASF naming guidelines located here. Personally, I
interpret this as a non-issue because the NCSU service is called
the "Virtual Computing Lab," and the ASF project name is "VCL"
which is not the same.
What do you think?
my 2 cents,
Brian
Brian Bouterse
Secure Open Systems Initiative
919.698.8796
On Jan 6, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
anything that
*can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
Josh
On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Thanks for your comments Matt.
Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
Regards,
Alan
On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there
are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the
development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked
the
formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation,
perhaps a
different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's
community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is,
well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
(ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to
assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be
resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue
its web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the
ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and
potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFJY4RhV/LQcNdtPQMRAtNJAJ9CViggEk5XIPl5DH/Q+cL2JerOoQCbBHsv
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=iwnz
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
What does VCL stand for then?
Regards,
Alan
On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:35 AM, Brian Bouterse wrote:
I wanted to revisit this thread, because no conclusion was reached.
The current status is that after much discussion on the list, no
name changes were proposed, or ratified.
There are ASF naming guidelines located here. Personally, I
interpret this as a non-issue because the NCSU service is called the
"Virtual Computing Lab," and the ASF project name is "VCL" which is
not the same.
What do you think?
my 2 cents,
Brian
Brian Bouterse
Secure Open Systems Initiative
919.698.8796
On Jan 6, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
anything that
*can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
Josh
On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Thanks for your comments Matt.
Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
Regards,
Alan
On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the
development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the
formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation,
perhaps a
different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is,
well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
(ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to
assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be
resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its
web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the
ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
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iD8DBQFJY4RhV/LQcNdtPQMRAtNJAJ9CViggEk5XIPl5DH/Q+cL2JerOoQCbBHsv
O7WjXdHQWfQ6B3uUTkTr9+g=
=iwnz
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
I wanted to revisit this thread, because no conclusion was reached.
The current status is that after much discussion on the list, no name
changes were proposed, or ratified.
There are ASF naming guidelines located here. Personally, I interpret
this as a non-issue because the NCSU service is called the "Virtual
Computing Lab," and the ASF project name is "VCL" which is not the same.
What do you think?
my 2 cents,
Brian
Brian Bouterse
Secure Open Systems Initiative
919.698.8796
On Jan 6, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Josh Thompson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there
anything that
*can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
Josh
On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Thanks for your comments Matt.
Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
Regards,
Alan
On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the
development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the
formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation, perhaps a
different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is, well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
(ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's
name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its
web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation
which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
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=iwnz
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Maybe we should look at this from a different angle - is there anything that
*can* happen for the name to continue as "VCL" at ASF?
Josh
On Tuesday January 06, 2009, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> Thanks for your comments Matt.
>
> Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
> This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
> On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> > Alan,
> >
> > Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a
> > few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
> > need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
> > identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
> > reverse order.
> >
> > First is the identity of the community. The move of the
> > development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the
> > formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
> > decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
> > community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation, perhaps a
> > different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
> > between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's community.
> >
> > As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is, well,
> > virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
> > (ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
> >
> > On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
> >> Alan writes:
> >>> ...
> >>> If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign
> >>> the
> >>> trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's name.
> >>
> >> OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
> >> think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
> >>
> >> If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
> >> ownership
> >> to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its web
> >> site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
> >>
> >> Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
> >> doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
> >> ASF to use
> >> "VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF
> >> use
> >> "AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation which
> >> would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
> >> users
> >> that it's the same project.)
> >>
> >> Does the above make sense?
> >> --
> >> --henry schaffer
- --
- ---
Josh Thompson
Systems Programmer
Virtual Computing Lab (VCL)
North Carolina State University
josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu
919-515-5323
my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu
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=iwnz
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
Thanks for your comments Matt.
Well, it's after the holidays. Time to pick this thread back up.
This issue needs to be resolved before we graduate.
Regards,
Alan
On Dec 19, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we
need to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the
identity of the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in
reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the
development for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the
formation of a community outside of NC State. So, what NC State
decides to do or not to do is not particularly relevant to the
community collaborating at Apache. Given this separation, perhaps a
different name is appropriate so their is a clear distinction
between NC State's use of VCL and the Apache Incubator's community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is, well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :)
(ya, I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to
ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
Alan,
Thanks for starting the discussion about this. I think there are a
few different issues so I'll try to separate them. The issues we need
to address is the trademark of VCL and the other is the identity of
the community. Perhaps we should talk about these in reverse order.
First is the identity of the community. The move of the development
for the VCL codebase from NC State to Apache marked the formation of a
community outside of NC State. So, what NC State decides to do or not
to do is not particularly relevant to the community collaborating at
Apache. Given this separation, perhaps a different name is
appropriate so their is a clear distinction between NC State's use of
VCL and the Apache Incubator's community.
As far as the name goes. Since Virtualization and hosting is, well,
virtual, perhaps a name like spectre or Casper would be good :) (ya,
I already can see the naming police coming).
On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to ASF
to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Dec 19, 2008, at 7:19 AM, Henry E Schaffer wrote:
Alan writes:
...
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign
the
trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the
ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to ASF
to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF
use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential
users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
It does Henry. Unfortunately I don't think that either would fly.
Regards,
Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
Alan writes:
> ...
> If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign the
> trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's name.
OK - I think we've reached a very clear question to be resolved. I
think here's what needs to be resolved (at least in my mind):
If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU assigns the ownership
to the ASF - then would ASF give NCSU permission to continue its web
site as is (possibly with an acknowledgement to the ASF)?
Alternatively: If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU, and If NCSU
doesn't assign the ownership to the ASF, but gives permission to ASF to use
"VCL" as part of naming this ASF project - could, and would the ASF use
"AVCL" ("Apache VCL") as the name? (Or some other formulation which
would be an Apache name but clearly portray to users and potential users
that it's the same project.)
Does the above make sense?
--
--henry schaffer
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Dec 18, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Henry E Schaffer wrote: Alan D. Cabrera writes: On Dec 18, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Josh Thompson wrote: ... I do have some questions as to why we can't keep the name. Something I don't understand is that if NCSU were to completely stop doing anything with VCL other than developing it at ASF, and then were to set up an install of it in a year, wouldn't we call it whatever it is called at ASF? In which case we'd be back to the state of using the same name. That goes for anyone that wants to run it. Does another entity have to change the name of it if they install it? If not, they'd be using using the name for the exact same product. Let's use Apache Geronimo as an example. If I were a company that took the product, maybe added some stuff, maybe not, and then sold it as the "Acme Geronimo Application Server", the ASF would be after me with a baseball bat. I could, however, sell it as "Acme Application Server based on Apache Geronimo". Think of it as a trademark thing. NC State isn't selling and doesn't intend to sell the VCL. NC State wants to run the VCL code from ASF - contributed to the ASF by NC State - and call the code by the same name as it has at the ASF. We could easily have a notice at the bottom of our web page saying "This VCL code is not only based on the Apache/ASF VCL code, it is the same code." Using the code is not a problem. I am referring tho this site: http://vcl.ncsu.edu/ Please don't get caught up in the fact that there is no software being sold here. We're not planning on developing anything here at NCSU in parallel to what's being developed at ASF. We're planning on doing all development based at ASF. Yeah, it doesn't matter where the development is. Think of it as like a trademark thing. Since we're not selling it, or even distributing it - just using locally what's at Apache/ASF, it's hard for me to see how we're violating any trademark. (IANAL - but I'm wondering if everyone who runs the Apache web server has to proclaim that it's not the Apache web server, although the code is identical, that it's actually the Acme Applications Server based on the Apache web server. My experience is that people simply say they are running the Apache web server, and don't engage in renaming it.) As far as the possibility that this refers to Apache/ASF violating NC State's trademark (we have been using "VCL" for years), which seems to be indicated at: http://www.apache.org/dev/project-names.html I believe that NC State would permit Apache/ASF to use the "VCL" name/mark (apparently to be used as "Apache VCL") and so remove the possibilty of such being a violation. If VCL is a trademark owned by NCSU then they would have to assign the trademark to the ASF or we would have to change our project's name. Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
Alan D. Cabrera writes: > On Dec 18, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Josh Thompson wrote: > ... >>I do have some questions as to why we can't keep the name. >> >>Something I don't understand is that if NCSU were to completely stop doing >>anything with VCL other than developing it at ASF, and then were to set up an >>install of it in a year, wouldn't we call it whatever it is called at ASF? >>In which case we'd be back to the state of using the same name. That goes >>for anyone that wants to run it. Does another entity have to change the name >>of it if they install it? If not, they'd be using using the name for the >>exact same product. > > Let's use Apache Geronimo as an example. If I were a company that > took the product, maybe added some stuff, maybe not, and then sold it > as the "Acme Geronimo Application Server", the ASF would be after me > with a baseball bat. I could, however, sell it as "Acme Application > Server based on Apache Geronimo". Think of it as a trademark thing. NC State isn't selling and doesn't intend to sell the VCL. NC State wants to run the VCL code from ASF - contributed to the ASF by NC State - and call the code by the same name as it has at the ASF. We could easily have a notice at the bottom of our web page saying "This VCL code is not only based on the Apache/ASF VCL code, it is the same code." >>We're not planning on developing anything here at NCSU in parallel to what's >>being developed at ASF. We're planning on doing all development based at >>ASF. > > Yeah, it doesn't matter where the development is. Think of it as like > a trademark thing. Since we're not selling it, or even distributing it - just using locally what's at Apache/ASF, it's hard for me to see how we're violating any trademark. (IANAL - but I'm wondering if everyone who runs the Apache web server has to proclaim that it's not the Apache web server, although the code is identical, that it's actually the Acme Applications Server based on the Apache web server. My experience is that people simply say they are running the Apache web server, and don't engage in renaming it.) As far as the possibility that this refers to Apache/ASF violating NC State's trademark (we have been using "VCL" for years), which seems to be indicated at: http://www.apache.org/dev/project-names.html I believe that NC State would permit Apache/ASF to use the "VCL" name/mark (apparently to be used as "Apache VCL") and so remove the possibilty of such being a violation. Best wishes to all, --henry
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
On Dec 18, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Josh Thompson wrote: Thanks for the link; we'll look through the information. Most of us will be out the next 2 weeks; so, in order to have enough discussion for something as big as the name of the project, we'll need to wait until we get back in January to consider changing the name. Yeah, no rush. Just getting the discussion started. I do have some questions as to why we can't keep the name. Something I don't understand is that if NCSU were to completely stop doing anything with VCL other than developing it at ASF, and then were to set up an install of it in a year, wouldn't we call it whatever it is called at ASF? In which case we'd be back to the state of using the same name. That goes for anyone that wants to run it. Does another entity have to change the name of it if they install it? If not, they'd be using using the name for the exact same product. Let's use Apache Geronimo as an example. If I were a company that took the product, maybe added some stuff, maybe not, and then sold it as the "Acme Geronimo Application Server", the ASF would be after me with a baseball bat. I could, however, sell it as "Acme Application Server based on Apache Geronimo". Think of it as a trademark thing. We're not planning on developing anything here at NCSU in parallel to what's being developed at ASF. We're planning on doing all development based at ASF. Yeah, it doesn't matter where the development is. Think of it as like a trademark thing. Josh On Thursday December 18, 2008, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: http://www.apache.org/dev/project-names.html The mere fact that the origin of the project, NCSU, will continue to use the VCL name for the exact same product means we have to find a new name. Regards, Alan On Dec 18, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Aaron Peeler wrote: We were under the impression the apache project name could also be called vcl, which why we stuck with it. We're fine to rename it in the incubator, definitely better to do it sooner than later, but could you let us know why we'd have to? Are there any policies or docs you can point us at? Aaron --On December 18, 2008 8:14:50 AM -0800 "Alan D. Cabrera" wrote: I think the CLA relates to the code. As for the name, if we use it I think NCSU has to stop using it. Maybe it's a good idea to think of a new name. Regards, Alan On Dec 18, 2008, at 6:24 AM, Aaron Peeler wrote: I don't think so. With our NCSU legal signing the corp. CLA, that pretty much approved the use of the name for the ASF project. It's what we've used for the last 4+ years and what many other schools know it as. Aaron --On December 17, 2008 7:21:41 PM -0800 "Alan D. Cabrera" wrote: Isn't this the same name that's at NCSU? Will that be a problem? Regards, Alan - -- - --- Josh Thompson Systems Programmer Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) North Carolina State University josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu 919-515-5323 my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJSrw/V/LQcNdtPQMRAujlAJsFngwBBMfSeF1p1919ftlDutK5JQCfdx+e WXv+HxQCpCMb+grqTB1mU9Y= =7lXV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alan, Thanks for the link; we'll look through the information. Most of us will be out the next 2 weeks; so, in order to have enough discussion for something as big as the name of the project, we'll need to wait until we get back in January to consider changing the name. I do have some questions as to why we can't keep the name. Something I don't understand is that if NCSU were to completely stop doing anything with VCL other than developing it at ASF, and then were to set up an install of it in a year, wouldn't we call it whatever it is called at ASF? In which case we'd be back to the state of using the same name. That goes for anyone that wants to run it. Does another entity have to change the name of it if they install it? If not, they'd be using using the name for the exact same product. We're not planning on developing anything here at NCSU in parallel to what's being developed at ASF. We're planning on doing all development based at ASF. Josh On Thursday December 18, 2008, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > http://www.apache.org/dev/project-names.html > > The mere fact that the origin of the project, NCSU, will continue to > use the VCL name for the exact same product means we have to find a > new name. > > > Regards, > Alan > > On Dec 18, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Aaron Peeler wrote: > > We were under the impression the apache project name could also be > > called vcl, which why we stuck with it. > > > > We're fine to rename it in the incubator, definitely better to do it > > sooner than later, but could you let us know why we'd have to? Are > > there any policies or docs you can point us at? > > > > Aaron > > > > --On December 18, 2008 8:14:50 AM -0800 "Alan D. Cabrera" > > > > > > wrote: > >> > >> I think the CLA relates to the code. As for the name, if we use it I > >> think NCSU has to stop using it. Maybe it's a good idea to think > >> of a > >> new name. > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Alan > >> > >> On Dec 18, 2008, at 6:24 AM, Aaron Peeler wrote: > >>> I don't think so. With our NCSU legal signing the corp. CLA, that > >>> pretty much approved the use of the name for the ASF project. > >>> > >>> It's what we've used for the last 4+ years and what many other > >>> schools know it as. > >>> > >>> Aaron > >>> > >>> --On December 17, 2008 7:21:41 PM -0800 "Alan D. Cabrera" > >>> >>> > >>> > wrote: > > Isn't this the same name that's at NCSU? Will that be a problem? > > > Regards, > Alan - -- - --- Josh Thompson Systems Programmer Virtual Computing Lab (VCL) North Carolina State University josh_thomp...@ncsu.edu 919-515-5323 my GPG/PGP key can be found at pgp.mit.edu -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJSrw/V/LQcNdtPQMRAujlAJsFngwBBMfSeF1p1919ftlDutK5JQCfdx+e WXv+HxQCpCMb+grqTB1mU9Y= =7lXV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
http://www.apache.org/dev/project-names.html The mere fact that the origin of the project, NCSU, will continue to use the VCL name for the exact same product means we have to find a new name. Regards, Alan On Dec 18, 2008, at 9:11 AM, Aaron Peeler wrote: We were under the impression the apache project name could also be called vcl, which why we stuck with it. We're fine to rename it in the incubator, definitely better to do it sooner than later, but could you let us know why we'd have to? Are there any policies or docs you can point us at? Aaron --On December 18, 2008 8:14:50 AM -0800 "Alan D. Cabrera" > wrote: I think the CLA relates to the code. As for the name, if we use it I think NCSU has to stop using it. Maybe it's a good idea to think of a new name. Regards, Alan On Dec 18, 2008, at 6:24 AM, Aaron Peeler wrote: I don't think so. With our NCSU legal signing the corp. CLA, that pretty much approved the use of the name for the ASF project. It's what we've used for the last 4+ years and what many other schools know it as. Aaron --On December 17, 2008 7:21:41 PM -0800 "Alan D. Cabrera" wrote: Isn't this the same name that's at NCSU? Will that be a problem? Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
We were under the impression the apache project name could also be called vcl, which why we stuck with it. We're fine to rename it in the incubator, definitely better to do it sooner than later, but could you let us know why we'd have to? Are there any policies or docs you can point us at? Aaron --On December 18, 2008 8:14:50 AM -0800 "Alan D. Cabrera" wrote: I think the CLA relates to the code. As for the name, if we use it I think NCSU has to stop using it. Maybe it's a good idea to think of a new name. Regards, Alan On Dec 18, 2008, at 6:24 AM, Aaron Peeler wrote: I don't think so. With our NCSU legal signing the corp. CLA, that pretty much approved the use of the name for the ASF project. It's what we've used for the last 4+ years and what many other schools know it as. Aaron --On December 17, 2008 7:21:41 PM -0800 "Alan D. Cabrera" wrote: Isn't this the same name that's at NCSU? Will that be a problem? Regards, Alan
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
I think the CLA relates to the code. As for the name, if we use it I think NCSU has to stop using it. Maybe it's a good idea to think of a new name. Regards, Alan On Dec 18, 2008, at 6:24 AM, Aaron Peeler wrote: I don't think so. With our NCSU legal signing the corp. CLA, that pretty much approved the use of the name for the ASF project. It's what we've used for the last 4+ years and what many other schools know it as. Aaron --On December 17, 2008 7:21:41 PM -0800 "Alan D. Cabrera" > wrote: Isn't this the same name that's at NCSU? Will that be a problem? Regards, Alan Aaron Peeler OIT Advanced Computing College of Engineering-NCSU 919.513.4571 http://vcl.ncsu.edu
Re: VCL, is this name kosher?
I don't think so. With our NCSU legal signing the corp. CLA, that pretty much approved the use of the name for the ASF project. It's what we've used for the last 4+ years and what many other schools know it as. Aaron --On December 17, 2008 7:21:41 PM -0800 "Alan D. Cabrera" wrote: Isn't this the same name that's at NCSU? Will that be a problem? Regards, Alan Aaron Peeler OIT Advanced Computing College of Engineering-NCSU 919.513.4571 http://vcl.ncsu.edu
VCL, is this name kosher?
Isn't this the same name that's at NCSU? Will that be a problem? Regards, Alan
