Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-23 Thread Pine W
Hi John, perhaps I'm overlooking something. If you recommend that there be no additional foundation, then who will pay the translators to translate articles? Are you envisioning WMF paying translators directly, or WMF paying a third party organization to pay the translators, or a third party

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-05 Thread Peter Southwood
ted, it just happened earlier. Living > languages > > > evolve to deal with the realities of the present. Those which > > > don’t, > tend > > > to die out as they become less useful. Cheers, Peter > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-05 Thread Samuel Klein
+100 to this. Thank you, John. I have slightly different ideas about what this should cost and how to encourage translators and support a 100k-person network of polylinguals + babelfish + just.in.time conversion tools to melt language barriers. But simplicity, focus, persistence are what

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-05 Thread John Erling Blad
t; > encyclopaedic terminology and style in languages that have then also > had > > to > > > be created before it existed, it just happened earlier. Living > languages > > > evolve to deal with the realities of the present. Those which don’t, > tend > > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-05 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
reated before it existed, it just happened earlier. Living > languages > > > evolve to deal with the realities of the present. Those which don’t, > tend > > > to die out as they become less useful. Cheers, Peter > > > > > > -Original Message- > &g

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-05 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, The Cebuano Wikipedia articles were created based on information available in databases. So creating static articles is a known quantity. In Reasonator there is functionality that creates text for humans. This has been available for years as well and when data changes, the text changes.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-05 Thread petrohs el compa obrero
wikipedia offline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwix On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:50 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz < psychosl...@culture-libre.org> wrote: > Le 27/02/2018 à 12:42, Vi to a écrit : > >> I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would >> suit languages with a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-05 Thread Renée Bagslint
ers, Peter > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Vi to > > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:43 PM > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-05 Thread Jonathan Cardy
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation > Message-ID: >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-04 Thread James Salsman
asking for funds to asking for content donations, especially in > the language of that area. > > WereSpielChequers > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 18:13:38 -0800 >> From: Pine W <wiki.p..

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-04 Thread Peter Southwood
-Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Amir E. Aharoni Sent: 04 March 2018 15:59 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation Yes, I mentioned something like this in one of my emails in this thread. Every language

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-04 Thread John Erling Blad
asonably extensive technical vocabulary, > and > > good electronic dictionary systems,, but many concepts familiar to me in > my > > fields of interest just do not have Afrikaans words (yet). > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > -----Original Message- > > From: W

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-04 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
lf Of WereSpielChequers > Sent: 04 March 2018 11:54 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation > > Pine, there is one possible way to fund such translation in the future; > The Foundation is building up an endowment. When that endowment has grown >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-04 Thread Peter Southwood
...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of WereSpielChequers Sent: 04 March 2018 11:54 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation Pine, there is one possible way to fund such translation in the future; The Foundation is building up an endowment. When that endowment has grown

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-04 Thread John Erling Blad
It should also be possible for an editor to let the payment go back to foundation. This would probably be the case for many users in industrial countries. Perhaps it wasn't clear enough but the interface to manage translations would be for someone other than the involved translators, aka a third

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-04 Thread John Erling Blad
You guys are making the whole idea way to complex. There should be no editorial board. That goes against the whole wiki-way of doing things. There should be no additional foundation, that makes the whole idea unmanageable. It will also cost way more than the gain. Make thing DarnSimple™! A single

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-04 Thread WereSpielChequers
r 2018 18:13:38 -0800 > From: Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation > Message-ID: >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-03 Thread Pine W
If he/she sends a few million dollars to the community in a way that is independent of WMF, and we organize ourselves to accept and use the funds wisely, I will be very grateful. :) Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine ) On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 6:46 PM, James Salsman

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-03 Thread James Salsman
Pine, why not ask your namesake? https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7jj0oa/im_donating_5057_btc_to_charitable_causes/ On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 7:13 PM, Pine W wrote: > On the subject of paid translation, I could imagine this being included in > the scope of work for a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-03 Thread Pine W
On the subject of paid translation, I could imagine this being included in the scope of work for a "Wiki Community Foundation" or "Wiki Content Foundation" that would do work that WMF doesn't do and/or shouldn't do. I have a number of activities in mind for this kind of organization.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-03 Thread Pine W
Hi Yaroslav, I like this idea of a compendium. It reminds me of cross-wiki search and the ability to look up words on mobile Wikipedia. I believe that WMF Discovery has been working on cross-wiki search. Perhaps, for smaller communities, there would be a way to extend the Discovery team's efforts

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-01 Thread Yaroslav Blanter
One idea which was spelled out many times but never took off is that of a Wiki-compendium. If we are talking about a language which is let us say not endangered, has a reasonably large number of speakers but not millions, and only has a limited number of sources published in this language - the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-01 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
2018-02-28 16:03 GMT+02:00 Jean-Philippe Béland : > > The Wikimedia movement is more than encyclopedias... We already have > Wikiversity for teaching, no? Are efforts to contribute to Wikiversity and > other sister projects making us lose focus? I'm not sure to understand

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-01 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
That would be a very good project! Exactly the kind of thing that would be a good implementation of John Erling's suggestion in his opening email. I'd support it. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.”

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-01 Thread John Erling Blad
There are something similar to paid translations in what you may call prioritized articles. That is articles that are so important for a language that they should be written, no matter whether they exist in a larger language. For example in the Northern Sami Wikipedia there should be an article

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-01 Thread John Erling Blad
That is a very good example! On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Harald Haugland wrote: > This thread brought me to think of an article I wrote on Norwegian > Wikipedia about a year ago. It was about the Allex Project (African > Languages Lexical Project), a project where

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-03-01 Thread Harald Haugland
This thread brought me to think of an article I wrote on Norwegian Wikipedia about a year ago. It was about the Allex Project (African Languages Lexical Project), a project where universities in Oslo, Gothenburg and Harare cooperated in developing monolingual text corpus based dictionaries for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-28 Thread Jean-Philippe Béland
The Wikimedia movement is more than encyclopedias... We already have Wikiversity for teaching, no? Are efforts to contribute to Wikiversity and other sister projects making us lose focus? I'm not sure to understand what you are saying. JP On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 2:32 AM Amir E. Aharoni <

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-28 Thread mathieu stumpf guntz
Le 27/02/2018 à 18:51, Jean-Philippe Béland a écrit : Amir, I agree with everything you said, especially that languages are knowledge in themselves, but I must say that Wikimedia is not doing much in an effort to teach languages to people. Why isn't there more effort at the WMF or as a movement

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ 2018-02-28 1:03 GMT+02:00 Tim Landscheidt : > Then of course there is the more fundamental problem: If > those 100,000

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
2018-02-28 1:25 GMT+02:00 James Salsman : > > I was not trying to say that everybody > > should learn English. The point I was > > trying to make there is that knowing > > English is a privilege and that it is easy > > to not notice it. > > I agree with that, too. How is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Gnangarra
A person language is a key part of their culture, their knowledge, and their identity to truly understand a concept its best shared in its original language. Since our goal is to freely share the sum the all knowledge we should be endeavouring to encourage every culture to use its own language.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread James Salsman
> I was not trying to say that everybody > should learn English. The point I was > trying to make there is that knowing > English is a privilege and that it is easy > to not notice it. I agree with that, too. How is teaching language different relative to the Foundation Mission than teaching

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Tim Landscheidt
"Amir E. Aharoni" wrote: > […] > On a more practical and less ideological note, I should note that even > though I didn't run the numbers, I strongly suspect that translating 10,000 > articles to 100 languages is considerably cheaper than teaching 7 billion >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
2018-02-27 21:23 GMT+02:00 James Salsman : > Languages are taught by authoritative dictionaries (after people, and > ahead of almost all other similar reference books.) > ... Yeah, and building an authoritative dictionary is considerably harder than building a (de facto)

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Jean-Philippe Béland
I don't think it would be losing focus as it fits directly in the mission of the movement to share the sum of human knowledge, since languages are knowledge in themselves. Yes I agree that Wikiversity could be used for that, but this project really needs support to get to current standards of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread James Salsman
Languages are taught by authoritative dictionaries (after people, and ahead of almost all other similar reference books.) Wiktionary has multiple teaching functions whether we want it to or not: https://curve.coventry.ac.uk/open/items/efe362e1-fe80-4c90-bc1e-4ab2d9bbae20/1/ Have you seen how

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
Well... Not that teaching languages—big or small—is bad, but wouldn't we be losing focus if we got into it? Wikibooks and Wikiversity can theoretically be places for teaching. Are they good at it? Probably not. Should they be made better? Maybe. בתאריך 27 בפבר׳ 2018 19:52,‏ "Jean-Philippe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Jean-Philippe Béland
Amir, I agree with everything you said, especially that languages are knowledge in themselves, but I must say that Wikimedia is not doing much in an effort to teach languages to people. Why isn't there more effort at the WMF or as a movement to try to develop a platform to teach languages?

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Vi to
- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Vi to > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:43 PM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation > > I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would > s

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ 2018-02-27 18:04 GMT+02:00 Tim Landscheidt : > "Amir E. Aharoni" wrote: > > > […] > > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Tim Landscheidt
"Amir E. Aharoni" wrote: > […] > Sometimes it is, but there is something much bigger: There are many > languages that > 1. are alive in speech (and possibly in writing) > 2. are not in danger of extinction > 3. have a large number of monolingual speakers (let's say

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Peter Southwood
- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Vi to Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:43 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would suit languages

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread mathieu stumpf guntz
Le 27/02/2018 à 12:42, Vi to a écrit : I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would suit languages with a significant presence on the web. Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2 "creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
2018-02-27 13:42 GMT+02:00 Vi to : > I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would > suit languages with a significant presence on the web. > > Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2 > "creating > basic encyclopedic

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Vi to
I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would suit languages with a significant presence on the web. Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2 "creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language", if we want to preserve a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
2018-02-27 13:00 GMT+02:00 mathieu stumpf guntz < psychosl...@culture-libre.org>: > > > Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit : > >> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable >> Wikipedians. >> >> I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the initial >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread mathieu stumpf guntz
Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit : *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable Wikipedians. I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the initial translator to turn into a sustaining editor, we need the article to evolve with call to action

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Gnangarra
Agree with mathieo it needs to be something driven by the receiving language community with WMF support rather than something being pushed in to communities from the WMF or other projects. Such if the Swahili community thought that having say medical articles translated was something it felt was

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread mathieu stumpf guntz
I'm not against the idea of paid translation /per se/, but it shouldn't be managed by the WMF, should it be only to ensure that it doesn't cross too far the line of non-intervention regarding editorial decisions. Debate can go on to which level it stands with this line, but to my mind WMF

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Gnangarra
> > ​ WWII is not an universal truth. If some small country claim the Nazis > was > the good guys, then they are simply wrong. > ​No even thats not entirely true for some countries WWII in Europe was foot note, for others WWII was the trigger for escaping colonial rule. Languages related to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
Indeed. We can all agree that it's OK for a lot of reason to have differences in content between projects. What these differences are is a separate discussion. These differences often come up when discussing translation projects in Wikipedia, and it's important to recognize them, but it's also

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-27 Thread John Erling Blad
WWII is not an universal truth. If some small country claim the Nazis was the good guys, then they are simply wrong. Yes there are a lot of projects where information diverge, but usually that is because someone added material that somehow seems more appropriate for readers in that specific

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-26 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, I have been involved in a translation project with professional translators translating featured articles of the English Wikipedia. The choice for featured articles was done because we expected that the content would not be in dispute. We found different. Several of the translated articles

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-26 Thread James Salsman
> wonder if creating dynamic articles from Wikidata is better > than creating static articles Not for years to decades. https://twitter.com/AustenAllred/status/967842020151603200 On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:02 AM, John Erling Blad wrote: > I wonder if creating dynamic

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-26 Thread John Erling Blad
I wonder if creating dynamic articles from Wikidata is better than creating static articles. Because we lack tools for this, it is easier to do this offline, and as a consequence we get the static bot-articles. Den søn. 25. feb. 2018, 16.26 skrev Gabriel Thullen : > I should

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread John Erling Blad
Some years ago I tried to figure out whether there was some kind of mechanism that kept the community sizes at a fixed level. Taking the population in countries that spoke a specific language, adjusting for access to internet, and family sizes, made me realize that most stable projects have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread Gabriel Thullen
I should have joined in this discussion a little earlier. I work a lot with the French Wikipedia, and we do not just translate articles from English (6 million articles) to French (only 2 million articles). The French community is large and active, and provide a unique local perspective on the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread Anders Wennersten
I am very happy to follow this thread as I believe it is addressing a very relevant issue. In my mind we can divide up the different language version into 5 categories: 1.Enwp, 2.the next 6-7 (de,fr, es,jp,pt,ru..) 3.the next 20 or so, where the basic workprocesses are applied 4.the next

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread Isaac Olatunde
How about training language experts in academic institutions on how to translate contents from one language Wikipedia (Eg. English wikipedia) to another? I believe this would be more productive than paying people directly to contribute or translate contents. Sometimes in 2016, I discussed with a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread John Erling Blad
> > Todd > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood < > > > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > > > > > > > Those who pay get to select what is translated. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Peter > > > &

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread John Erling Blad
-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Paid translation (Gnangarra) > > 2. Re: Paid translation (Michael Snow) > > > > > > -- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 03:05:41 +0800 > > From: Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation > > Message-ID: > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread Vi to
Any "global" list reflects (and I fear it will always reflect) the Weltanschauung of those cultures which are stronger on the web. I'm deeply concerned about cultures being eaten up by globalization but attempts to preserve them should take into account the risk of ending up preserving just "our"

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread John Erling Blad
Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally. There will although be articles in additions to a list of core articles, but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only list. Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of core

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
I'll start by saying that I'm one of the developers of Content Translation, so I'm obviously biased about this topic. A lot of good points were raised here, but there's one that is not really mentioned. If it sounds obvious to you, it's great, but it's not obvious to everyone. Here it is: More

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread Info WorldUniversity
at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood < > > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > > > > > Those who pay get to select what is translated. > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-25 Thread Jonathan Cardy
2018 03:05:41 +0800 > From: Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation > Message-ID: >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Vi to
Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the contents in a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a form of "cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural appropriation. NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian" sense:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Jean-Philippe Béland
I agree with the last part of Vito's message. For languages where '''all''' the speakers speak another lingua franca, I think such process does not have real value. The speakers will always go read in the bigger language because the article is most likely to be better. The advantages of having

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Michael Snow
On 2/24/2018 1:53 PM, John Erling Blad wrote: The source article should meet certain standards, but do not fall in the trap where the translated articles must themselves be better than some imagined standard. That would lead to a defunc process. I'm not saying a translated article must be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation. Not sure if it is possible to agree on this. On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to wrote: > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness. > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
This is not the same, and is more like the present grant system. On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Gnangarra wrote: > this would be a good practical exercise to develop for WiR / WikiEd > programs in universities where they can engage with International Students > and local

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
The source article should meet certain standards, but do not fall in the trap where the translated articles must themselves be better than some imagined standard. That would lead to a defunc process. On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Michael Snow wrote: > I think the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
ranslated. > Cheers, > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
t; > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55 > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned > > language projects, same for the list

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Yaroslav Blanter
se who pay get to select what is translated. > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55 > > To: Wikimedia Mailing L

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Todd Allen
n...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation > > I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned > language projects, same for the lis

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Peter Southwood
Those who pay get to select what is translated. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Michael Snow
I think the experience I've had with translating matches up well with the conclusions James has outlined. Even though I'm more likely to translate content into English rather than out of English, the principles still hold. Trying to produce a translation without quality content in the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Gnangarra
this would be a good practical exercise to develop for WiR / WikiEd programs in universities where they can engage with International Students and local students studying additional languages as means of learning the written nuances of the individual languages. Any funding would be better

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Vi to
I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness. I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed in a better way by others: *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification requiring a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was merely a statement about my present experience about translators in general. The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a specialized area is that there is a small community, and within this community some kind of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread James Heilman
I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator into a new editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have involvement of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of the languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be involved /

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from small language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more interesting than strictly translating from the larger language projects. On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland wrote: > I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Jean-Philippe Béland
Thank you James for this detailed feedback. It is very interesting. JP On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 8:27 AM James Heilman wrote: > We learned a few things during the medical translation project which > started back in 2011: > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Jean-Philippe Béland
I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my simple opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again. Jean-Philippe Béland Vice President, Wikimedia Canada On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Jean-Philippe Béland
colonialism * On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:55 AM Jean-Philippe Béland wrote: > I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my simple > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again. > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less interesting in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea, the translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles should also be pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie vertical articles, as the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
> > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles are > extensively improved before being proposed for translation. Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the project. 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts more > efficient than

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
Articles about LGBT topics would be great! Similarly topics about important women in the third world. I would also like a focus on articles about primary health. Perhaps also agriculture. I'm not sure if it is wise to move this out into chapters, keep it simple, but perhaps community groups

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread James Salsman
>... make sure people are taking the work seriously and not > simply using Google translate People are likely to start with Google Translate whether they are taking the translation seriously or not, so it would still help if we could get Google to provide numeric per-word translation

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread James Heilman
One further case, some of the translations we did into Swahili had funding associated with them. Few people in the country have easy access to a computer and cellphones are not as suitable for translation work. Basically TWB has a brick and mortar translation center in Nairobi with computers. They

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread James Heilman
Meant to write "more than 5 million words translated". Apologies. James On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:26 AM, James Heilman wrote: > We learned a few things during the medical translation project which > started back in 2011: > > 1) You must start with high quality content and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread James Heilman
We learned a few things during the medical translation project which started back in 2011: 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles are extensively improved before being proposed for translation. 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN WP. Thus we

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread Lane Rasberry
Excellent idea. I have the idea that the WMF invests $10,000 in the developing world to recruit $1000 of volunteer labor. We need to be realistic about the relative costs of doing Western-style, rich country outreach in all economies. In the past, the strategy has been to fund the recruitment of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

2018-02-24 Thread John Erling Blad
I should probably say that I don't believe our present "lists of articles every Wikipedia should have" are really good. I believe the lists should reflect what people from different places actually reads, or try to read, but normalized to a global perspective. That is also a necessity if the