Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 11:07 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo wrote: I agree. But sometimes we're lazy. My worry is always the same: the energy budget necessary to drill the holes and maintain the infrastructure compared to the yield. I'm not saying this isn't a good idea, just that this analysis in necessary to make it convincing. I would be glad to be convinced and then I would like to have enough money to invest in your company :) Best, Telmo. No plans, no company, with going 92. BUT... there is my (agnostic) objection to the analysis you mention. I did a lot within polymer science and technology: always restricted to the already knownw factors and data. Then: new info shows up and the stock market goes belly up. Anticipation and analysis cannot invent the unknowable future. Take a risk and be lucky! (That's how I made my patents). Oh I agree with this. I mention the analysis in the context of what already exists, not as something that should discourage us from trying new things. Telmo. John M On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 11:41 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Telmo, oil wells went down deeper than previously estimated as feasible. Techniques are evolving. If 2, 0r 5 pipes are inadequate in transport capacity, use more. Ask the engineers - I also claim ignorance. the geological temperature vertical map is varying according to a lot of factors. Ignorance is not a good argument for not considering (and asking). I agree. But sometimes we're lazy. My worry is always the same: the energy budget necessary to drill the holes and maintain the infrastructure compared to the yield. I'm not saying this isn't a good idea, just that this analysis in necessary to make it convincing. I would be glad to be convinced and then I would like to have enough money to invest in your company :) Best, Telmo. John On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Hi John, On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a convoluted - I could say: inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed TODAY and we will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN pipe. Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for OIL, similar - if a bit longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for pumping DOWN the ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the OTHER to ascend the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. Sorry, I didn't comment out of ignorance. The idea sounds very attractive. What about depth? Is the necessary depth similar to oil extraction? And what about yield? How many of these pipes would we need to replace the energy output of a typical oil rig? Is it scalable? Cheers, Telmo. JOhn Mikes On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Telmo wrote: *I agree. But sometimes we're lazy.My worry is always the same: the energy budget necessary to drill theholes and maintain the infrastructure compared to the yield. I'm notsaying this isn't a good idea, just that this analysis in necessary tomake it convincing. I would be glad to be convinced and then I wouldlike to have enough money to invest in your company :) Best,Telmo.* No plans, no company, with going 92. BUT... there is my (agnostic) objection to the analysis you mention. I did a lot within polymer science and technology: always restricted to the already knownw factors and data. Then: new info shows up and the stock market goes belly up. Anticipation and analysis cannot invent the unknowable future. Take a risk and be lucky! (That's how I made my patents). John M On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 11:41 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Telmo, oil wells went down deeper than previously estimated as feasible. Techniques are evolving. If 2, 0r 5 pipes are inadequate in transport capacity, use more. Ask the engineers - I also claim ignorance. the geological temperature vertical map is varying according to a lot of factors. Ignorance is not a good argument for not considering (and asking). I agree. But sometimes we're lazy. My worry is always the same: the energy budget necessary to drill the holes and maintain the infrastructure compared to the yield. I'm not saying this isn't a good idea, just that this analysis in necessary to make it convincing. I would be glad to be convinced and then I would like to have enough money to invest in your company :) Best, Telmo. John On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Hi John, On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a convoluted - I could say: inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed TODAY and we will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN pipe. Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for OIL, similar - if a bit longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for pumping DOWN the ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the OTHER to ascend the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. Sorry, I didn't comment out of ignorance. The idea sounds very attractive. What about depth? Is the necessary depth similar to oil extraction? And what about yield? How many of these pipes would we need to replace the energy output of a typical oil rig? Is it scalable? Cheers, Telmo. JOhn Mikes On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options,
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 11:41 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Telmo, oil wells went down deeper than previously estimated as feasible. Techniques are evolving. If 2, 0r 5 pipes are inadequate in transport capacity, use more. Ask the engineers - I also claim ignorance. the geological temperature vertical map is varying according to a lot of factors. Ignorance is not a good argument for not considering (and asking). I agree. But sometimes we're lazy. My worry is always the same: the energy budget necessary to drill the holes and maintain the infrastructure compared to the yield. I'm not saying this isn't a good idea, just that this analysis in necessary to make it convincing. I would be glad to be convinced and then I would like to have enough money to invest in your company :) Best, Telmo. John On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Hi John, On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a convoluted - I could say: inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed TODAY and we will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN pipe. Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for OIL, similar - if a bit longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for pumping DOWN the ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the OTHER to ascend the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. Sorry, I didn't comment out of ignorance. The idea sounds very attractive. What about depth? Is the necessary depth similar to oil extraction? And what about yield? How many of these pipes would we need to replace the energy output of a typical oil rig? Is it scalable? Cheers, Telmo. JOhn Mikes On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/16/2013 12:51 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Dry rock geothermal certainly does have a big upside potential -- there is a whole lot of heat just a few miles below the ground, but it is not as easy or simple as you seem to think it is. For example in a lot of dry areas water supply becomes a gating factor that puts a limit on scalability -- this also applies to Canadian tar sands and shale gas plays -- water requirements will place a limit on how much it can scale; on the maximum annual rates of extraction that can be achieved. Water use is also, or should be, a limiting factor on fracking for oil extraction. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:43 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/16/2013 12:51 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Dry rock geothermal certainly does have a big upside potential - there is a whole lot of heat just a few miles below the ground, but it is not as easy or simple as you seem to think it is. For example in a lot of dry areas water supply becomes a gating factor that puts a limit on scalability - this also applies to Canadian tar sands and shale gas plays - water requirements will place a limit on how much it can scale; on the maximum annual rates of extraction that can be achieved. Water use is also, or should be, a limiting factor on fracking for oil extraction. Yes it is and it should be factored into the projections. Drillers are discovering that the fracked reservoirs they engineer - by hydraulic fracturing -- to extract the oil (or gas) need to be re-fracked in just a few years because of buildup of salt and other deposits in the micro-fissures. requiring yet more water. Chris Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Chris: you said it. I did not refer to hydraulic fracturing' or injecting (anything) INTO THE ROCK. I am talking about EXTRACTING H E A T only, in a CLOSED system. The carrying water must not touch the surrounding 'reservoir', must stay inside the well-system, in which it heats up for ascending to the surface. There is NO 'second well, the process goes in ONE. In and out. Your last par explains exactly the difference. Accordingly the ascending steam is NOT corrosive, the reason for using highly de-ionized (ultra-pure) water to inject into the hot zone INSIDE THE DEVICE. On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: John – The term reservoir has a well understood usage, when speaking about hydraulic fracturing, to describe the engineered rock volume that is filled by micro-fissures, created by injecting water under immense pressure into the rock, at the well head. The injected slurry contains poppants. Poppants are either sand or engineered small ceramic beads. It is this gritty material that maintains the micro-fissures and allows for the creation of a three dimensional volume – i.e. the reservoir – in which water can be injected and absorb heat from the rock volume that has been exposed – a much vaster surface area – by the hydraulic fracking. I am using the term reservoir very correctly – in the terms that it is used when speaking of hydraulic fracturing. Eventually the engineered rock volume that has been created by this process of fracking begins to reseal (the overburden is immense and squeezes the micro-fissures shut over time). In addition the engineered reservoir – in the specific sense that this term is used when speaking about hydraulic fracturing – will over time become depleted as heat is removed from it. Eventually that volume of rock will get hot again, but by the time it does the engineered micro-fissures will have been squeezed shut and the reservoir will have to be re-fracked. Water is injected into this reservoir, where it is turned into hot high pressure steam that comes up the second well. This steam is far too corrosive laden with minerals to use directly and must instead be used to boil the actual water, whose high pressure steam will transfer energy into the spinning turbine. If you used the steam from the well head you would be replacing turbines every year or two. Chris *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Mikes *Sent:* Saturday, November 16, 2013 2:49 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Chris: if you utter reservoir - you are on the wrong track. Nothing must COME OUT from the depth. Not even what YOU pumped in into open plenum. (My objection against the NZ plant). In Hungary in the 1950s a 'hot spring well' was tried to bring out 'heat' by its own pressure. By the time it reached the surface cooling a bit (and expanded(!) from the pressure) the M U D solidified into a hot mass. There was no private enterprise in commi Hungary at that time, so the idea was scrapped. John M On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Mikes *Sent:* Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:33 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Telmo: unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a convoluted - I could say: inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed TODAY and we will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN pipe. Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for OIL, similar - if a bit longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for pumping DOWN the ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the OTHER to ascend the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. JOhn Mikes If it were that easy…. Dry rock geothermal requires amongst other things large amounts of fresh water for hydraulic fracturing of the reservoir. This process needs to be repeated periodically as the reservoirs reseal up over a period of years (as is being experienced by the shale oil fracked wells) and in the case of dry rock geothermal when the heat reservoir becomes drawn down. The hot steam that comes out of the wells is too laden with minerals and salts to be used directly and it thus requires a duel loop system in which the primary loop boils water in a boiler to produce clean steam that is passed through the generators
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
How exactly then is the heat exchanged. Heat exchangers work by exposing a large surface area in which to transfer heat from the source into the working fluid or conversely from the working fluid into the heat sink if heat is being pumped in the opposite direction. If you do not accomplish creating this vast surface area - which is required in order to exchange heat - by fracking and filling the engineered fissures with water that picks up heat and becomes steam. How do you do it? You cannot just drill a well down into some hot rock then circulate water through it and expect to pick up very much heat at all. Without fracking the only way that this could be accomplished would be to physically drill a very large network of capillary wells in order to engineer the required surface area needed in order to have an effective heat exchanger. All the dry hot rock geothermal I have ever heard about uses fracking in order to engineer this volume of micro-fissures within a region of hot rock to turn that into a heat exchanger. Without all these micro-fissures there is no way to effectively transfer large amounts of heat into the working fluid. Drilling the thousands of miles of capillary heat exchange pipes - it sounds like you are envisioning - would present an exorbitant cost. If this is not what you are proposing then how do you propose the heat - on a massive scale - will be transferred into the distilled water? Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 12:15 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Chris: you said it. I did not refer to hydraulic fracturing' or injecting (anything) INTO THE ROCK. I am talking about EXTRACTING H E A T only, in a CLOSED system. The carrying water must not touch the surrounding 'reservoir', must stay inside the well-system, in which it heats up for ascending to the surface. There is NO 'second well, the process goes in ONE. In and out. Your last par explains exactly the difference. Accordingly the ascending steam is NOT corrosive, the reason for using highly de-ionized (ultra-pure) water to inject into the hot zone INSIDE THE DEVICE. On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: John - The term reservoir has a well understood usage, when speaking about hydraulic fracturing, to describe the engineered rock volume that is filled by micro-fissures, created by injecting water under immense pressure into the rock, at the well head. The injected slurry contains poppants. Poppants are either sand or engineered small ceramic beads. It is this gritty material that maintains the micro-fissures and allows for the creation of a three dimensional volume - i.e. the reservoir - in which water can be injected and absorb heat from the rock volume that has been exposed - a much vaster surface area - by the hydraulic fracking. I am using the term reservoir very correctly - in the terms that it is used when speaking of hydraulic fracturing. Eventually the engineered rock volume that has been created by this process of fracking begins to reseal (the overburden is immense and squeezes the micro-fissures shut over time). In addition the engineered reservoir - in the specific sense that this term is used when speaking about hydraulic fracturing - will over time become depleted as heat is removed from it. Eventually that volume of rock will get hot again, but by the time it does the engineered micro-fissures will have been squeezed shut and the reservoir will have to be re-fracked. Water is injected into this reservoir, where it is turned into hot high pressure steam that comes up the second well. This steam is far too corrosive laden with minerals to use directly and must instead be used to boil the actual water, whose high pressure steam will transfer energy into the spinning turbine. If you used the steam from the well head you would be replacing turbines every year or two. Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 2:49 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Chris: if you utter reservoir - you are on the wrong track. Nothing must COME OUT from the depth. Not even what YOU pumped in into open plenum. (My objection against the NZ plant). In Hungary in the 1950s a 'hot spring well' was tried to bring out 'heat' by its own pressure. By the time it reached the surface cooling a bit (and expanded(!) from the pressure) the M U D solidified into a hot mass. There was no private enterprise in commi Hungary at that time, so the idea was scrapped. John M On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Well, those PV panels are of course using a handy fusion reactor. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Ok, but I am not hostile at all to geothermal, especially if these quakes are very minor ones. This is also true, for me, with fracking nat gas. I am real ok with this. I would sign on the dotted line regarding solar, if I can be assured that Solar can and will power all of civilization's needs at the Terawatt level? I know that years ago, Freeman Dyson guessed that the Sun produced 33 Trillion times, in one second, what human energy use produces in one year. I am not against anything that will save us. I am against empty promises whether they be nuclear, or solar. The clean must work, or its virtually, useless. If people insist on new, clean, energy, then they must produce the solutions. Hence, I say, faster, please. -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, Nov 15, 2013 9:21 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 5:20 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Please understand, that unless your geothermal is really good, people will successfully complain about earthquakes caused by geothermal energy, bath in Basel, and Bavaria, if I remember right? Plus, the replacement tech that are proposed, must provide terawatts of energy, to replace the dirty. Hot rock geothermal, really deep geothermal, might solve all this, and instead of water as a working fluid to provide super-heated steam to run turbines, a working fluid like propane or methane has been proposed, or even air. The carbon fuels are captured over and over again for re-use. How costly, this is, how environmental, how technically doable-I don't know. Funny how the very same type of earthquake, that is triggered by hydraulic fracking – which is what you are referring to in Basel (and similar events also shut down a dry rock geothermal pilot in northern California) -- is now becoming widely used in order to squeeze gas and kerogen from the shale rock. It still causes the 4 to 5 on the Reichter scale tremors, but this has not shut down that sector or even slowed things down. There is a kind of earthquake double standard going on. Dry rock geothermal – which is what you are referring to – is the creation of (or enhancement of existing fields) geothermal reservoirs in hot bedrock – miles down below – through the process of hydraulic fracking ( injecting water slurry mixed with poppants (sand or manufactured ceramic beads) – the gas/shale oil secotr adds a whole slew of chemicals to this slurry such as solvents and surficants in order to try to chemically separate the kerogen and get it flowing. In theory dry rock geothermal could supply base load power in very large quantities in numerous locales on earth – the underlying geologies are quite common. However – except it seems when caused by the oil gas sector – people react very poorly to man-made earthquakes, and this poses a real problem. I would suggest they pilot this technology in remotely populated areas first to see if they can find ways to release the underlying stresses in a more gradual manner for example by changing how the hydraulic fracking process is done. The potential for this is huge, but the technological problems are also huge. As the shale oil and gas drillers are finding out a fracked reservoir will begin to seal back up and the flows will gum up as salts and other deposits infill the micro-cracks, and I imagine as the sheer weight of the overburden re-compresses these fissures – slowly crushing the poppants holding them open. For dry rock geothermal as well a fracked reservoir will get used up over time – eventually it will replenish as new heat flows in to the reservoir; after some years new reservoirs will need to be fracked. Chris -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 7:29 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 4:25 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Ok, but I am not hostile at all to geothermal, especially if these quakes are very minor ones. This is also true, for me, with fracking nat gas. I am real ok with this. I would sign on the dotted line regarding solar, if I can be assured that Solar can and will power all of civilization's needs at the Terawatt level? I know that years ago, Freeman Dyson guessed that the Sun produced 33 Trillion times, in one second, what human energy use produces in one year. I am not against anything that will save us. I am against empty promises whether they be nuclear, or solar. The clean must work, or its virtually, useless. If people insist on new, clean, energy, then they must produce the solutions. Hence, I say, faster, please. Look at the moving average for the growth of solar PV over the last three decades; it has more or less kept to a breakneck speed of growth and over the last decade has increased by a factor of 20 times. The global solar PV deployed capacity is nearing 50GW right now. Of course there is not a one to one relationship of capacity to the actual ability to output onto the grid - so applying a 20% factor to this capacity figure gives a more apples to apples comparison to say a nuclear power plants capacity figure. Even doing this kind of correction that means that the currently deployed solar PV capacity is the equivalent of ten one GW thermal electric power plants. If the solar PV sector continues to grow at the pace it has historically been growing at for the last thirty years then in another decade the deployed capacity will start to close in on the TW scale - or an equivalent continuous output of 200 one GW power plants (this is factoring all the variability of solar and counting its capacity at just one fifth of its rated value). In twenty years - if it holds to the historic growth factor the global deployed capacity of solar PV will be 20TW. At some point this growth has to peak - but every time in the past when it has been said that it would bottleneck on this or that - critical supply or process -- and that the growth rate would slow - this has failed to materialize and the growth rate has proceeded apace. How big can solar PV scale? Some mention peak silicon, but lower grade supplies are plentiful, and other non-silicon so called thin film PV technologies also exist (some of which can scale, others - like the those that rely on telluride -- not so much) Does anyone see any fundamental reasons why the silicon PV sector cannot scale out to the TW scale? Chris -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, Nov 15, 2013 9:21 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 5:20 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Please understand, that unless your geothermal is really good, people will successfully complain about earthquakes caused by geothermal energy, bath in Basel, and Bavaria, if I remember right? Plus, the replacement tech that are proposed, must provide terawatts of energy, to replace the dirty. Hot rock geothermal, really deep geothermal, might solve all this, and instead of water as a working fluid to provide super-heated steam to run turbines, a working fluid like propane or methane has been proposed, or even air. The carbon fuels are captured over and over again for re-use. How costly, this is, how environmental, how technically doable-I don't know. Funny how the very same type of earthquake, that is triggered by hydraulic fracking - which is what you are referring to in Basel (and similar events also shut down a dry rock geothermal pilot in northern California) -- is now becoming widely used in order to squeeze gas and kerogen from the shale rock. It still causes the 4 to 5 on the Reichter scale tremors, but this has not shut down that sector or even slowed things down. There is a kind of earthquake double standard going on. Dry rock geothermal - which is what you are referring to - is the creation of (or enhancement of existing fields) geothermal reservoirs in hot bedrock - miles down below - through the process of hydraulic fracking ( injecting water slurry mixed with poppants (sand or manufactured ceramic beads) - the gas/shale oil secotr adds a whole slew of chemicals to this slurry such as solvents and surficants in order to try to chemically separate the kerogen and get it flowing. In theory dry rock geothermal could supply base load power in very large quantities in numerous locales on earth
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Telmo: unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a convoluted - I could say: inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed TODAY and we will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN pipe. Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for OIL, similar - if a bit longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for pumping DOWN the ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the OTHER to ascend the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. JOhn Mikes On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Brent: that is a convoluted solution! I appreciate that you love sunshine, but keep it for the beach. Have you ever calculated how much surface of the present day efficiency is required to collect - say - 1000 times the energy we use today on the Globe? Think of energy required for the missing rainfall (agriculture) and snow-melt (hydroelectricity supply) not to mention the 7-10b humans need for potable water (desalinated from seawater). As much as I know you: you know how to think BIG. JM On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 7:29 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. It might blend well with solar. There have been proposals to store solar energy by heating underground reservoirs. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Hi John, On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a convoluted - I could say: inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed TODAY and we will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN pipe. Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for OIL, similar - if a bit longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for pumping DOWN the ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the OTHER to ascend the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. Sorry, I didn't comment out of ignorance. The idea sounds very attractive. What about depth? Is the necessary depth similar to oil extraction? And what about yield? How many of these pipes would we need to replace the energy output of a typical oil rig? Is it scalable? Cheers, Telmo. JOhn Mikes On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:33 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Telmo: unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a convoluted - I could say: inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed TODAY and we will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN pipe. Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for OIL, similar - if a bit longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for pumping DOWN the ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the OTHER to ascend the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. JOhn Mikes If it were that easy.. Dry rock geothermal requires amongst other things large amounts of fresh water for hydraulic fracturing of the reservoir. This process needs to be repeated periodically as the reservoirs reseal up over a period of years (as is being experienced by the shale oil fracked wells) and in the case of dry rock geothermal when the heat reservoir becomes drawn down. The hot steam that comes out of the wells is too laden with minerals and salts to be used directly and it thus requires a duel loop system in which the primary loop boils water in a boiler to produce clean steam that is passed through the generators. Then there is the matter of earthquakes - including the I believe it was a 5.3 on the Richter scale tremors linked to it in Basel. Dry rock geothermal certainly does have a big upside potential - there is a whole lot of heat just a few miles below the ground, but it is not as easy or simple as you seem to think it is. For example in a lot of dry areas water supply becomes a gating factor that puts a limit on scalability - this also applies to Canadian tar sands and shale gas plays - water requirements will place a limit on how much it can scale; on the maximum annual rates of extraction that can be achieved. Chris On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
If you need to push this TW challenge back at me, I would advise using the techno emergence of Graphene for all this electrical because it has made the jump and is being researched world wide. Caveat. This does not guarantee that it will do the job at the TW level, and maybe silicon can? But my fear is that neither can, and rather then perish from AGW, we perish from energy starvation because the old tech is so dirty. -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Nov 16, 2013 1:47 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 4:25 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Ok, but I am not hostile at all to geothermal, especially if these quakes are very minor ones. This is also true, for me, with fracking nat gas. I am real ok with this. I would sign on the dotted line regarding solar, if I can be assured that Solar can and will power all of civilization's needs at the Terawatt level? I know that years ago, Freeman Dyson guessed that the Sun produced 33 Trillion times, in one second, what human energy use produces in one year. I am not against anything that will save us. I am against empty promises whether they be nuclear, or solar. The clean must work, or its virtually, useless. If people insist on new, clean, energy, then they must produce the solutions. Hence, I say, faster, please. Look at the moving average for the growth of solar PV over the last three decades; it has more or less kept to a breakneck speed of growth and over the last decade has increased by a factor of 20 times. The global solar PV deployed capacity is nearing 50GW right now. Of course there is not a one to one relationship of capacity to the actual ability to output onto the grid – so applying a 20% factor to this capacity figure gives a more apples to apples comparison to say a nuclear power plants capacity figure. Even doing this kind of correction that means that the currently deployed solar PV capacity is the equivalent of ten one GW thermal electric power plants. If the solar PV sector continues to grow at the pace it has historically been growing at for the last thirty years then in another decade the deployed capacity will start to close in on the TW scale – or an equivalent continuous output of 200 one GW power plants (this is factoring all the variability of solar and counting its capacity at just one fifth of its rated value). In twenty years – if it holds to the historic growth factor the global deployed capacity of solar PV will be 20TW. At some point this growth has to peak – but every time in the past when it has been said that it would bottleneck on this or that – critical supply or process -- and that the growth rate would slow – this has failed to materialize and the growth rate has proceeded apace. How big can solar PV scale? Some mention peak silicon, but lower grade supplies are plentiful, and other non-silicon so called thin film PV technologies also exist (some of which can scale, others – like the those that rely on telluride -- not so much) Does anyone see any fundamental reasons why the silicon PV sector cannot scale out to the TW scale? Chris -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, Nov 15, 2013 9:21 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 5:20 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Please understand, that unless your geothermal is really good, people will successfully complain about earthquakes caused by geothermal energy, bath in Basel, and Bavaria, if I remember right? Plus, the replacement tech that are proposed, must provide terawatts of energy, to replace the dirty. Hot rock geothermal, really deep geothermal, might solve all this, and instead of water as a working fluid to provide super-heated steam to run turbines, a working fluid like propane or methane has been proposed, or even air. The carbon fuels are captured over and over again for re-use. How costly, this is, how environmental, how technically doable-I don't know. Funny how the very same type of earthquake, that is triggered by hydraulic fracking – which is what you are referring to in Basel (and similar events also shut down a dry rock geothermal pilot in northern California) -- is now becoming widely used in order to squeeze gas and kerogen from the shale rock. It still causes the 4 to 5 on the Reichter scale tremors, but this has not shut down that sector or even slowed things down. There is a kind
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 1:20 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World If you need to push this TW challenge back at me, I would advise using the techno emergence of Graphene for all this electrical because it has made the jump and is being researched world wide. Caveat. This does not guarantee that it will do the job at the TW level, and maybe silicon can? But my fear is that neither can, and rather then perish from AGW, we perish from energy starvation because the old tech is so dirty. If we continue to rely on fossil energy sources that raises the chances for an accidental nuclear war arising out of a conventional energy war to secure the control of diminishing reserves. Graphene is a very exciting material - for many applications. It has some very interesting properties. But it is still very much a lab phenomenon and I am not even certain that it can be produced in the scale that would be required. There are other exotic photovoltaic materials that show promise as well, including zinc oxide and carbon nano tubes as well as CIGS thin film (and other thin film types). Silicon is very common in the earth's crust - as silicates -- though it needs to be reduced and then purified. This process of carbothermic reduction - to produce metallurgy grade silicon is energy intensive, but the supply silicon feedstock to produce metallurgy grade silicon is for practical purposes inexhaustible. Current refining processes - that further refine the reduced metallurgy grade silicon -- use some fairly dirty chemistry (such as the hydrogen chloride refining process), but silicon is also amenable to being re-cycled and there are other refining processes in the works. So far I have not seen any fundamental road blocks to scaling up the production of solar quality silicon and hence to the scale of output of newly manufactured solar cells. Other solar PV technologies cannot scale - such as the thin film technology used by First Solar. Silicon instead - as far as I can tell - as the potential to scale up to the multi-TW level. Chris -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Nov 16, 2013 1:47 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 4:25 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Ok, but I am not hostile at all to geothermal, especially if these quakes are very minor ones. This is also true, for me, with fracking nat gas. I am real ok with this. I would sign on the dotted line regarding solar, if I can be assured that Solar can and will power all of civilization's needs at the Terawatt level? I know that years ago, Freeman Dyson guessed that the Sun produced 33 Trillion times, in one second, what human energy use produces in one year. I am not against anything that will save us. I am against empty promises whether they be nuclear, or solar. The clean must work, or its virtually, useless. If people insist on new, clean, energy, then they must produce the solutions. Hence, I say, faster, please. Look at the moving average for the growth of solar PV over the last three decades; it has more or less kept to a breakneck speed of growth and over the last decade has increased by a factor of 20 times. The global solar PV deployed capacity is nearing 50GW right now. Of course there is not a one to one relationship of capacity to the actual ability to output onto the grid - so applying a 20% factor to this capacity figure gives a more apples to apples comparison to say a nuclear power plants capacity figure. Even doing this kind of correction that means that the currently deployed solar PV capacity is the equivalent of ten one GW thermal electric power plants. If the solar PV sector continues to grow at the pace it has historically been growing at for the last thirty years then in another decade the deployed capacity will start to close in on the TW scale - or an equivalent continuous output of 200 one GW power plants (this is factoring all the variability of solar and counting its capacity at just one fifth of its rated value). In twenty years - if it holds to the historic growth factor the global deployed capacity of solar PV will be 20TW. At some point this growth has to peak - but every time in the past when it has been said that it would bottleneck on this or that - critical supply or process -- and that the growth rate would slow - this has failed to materialize and the growth rate has proceeded apace. How big can solar PV scale? Some mention peak silicon, but lower grade supplies are plentiful, and other non-silicon so
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Dear Telmo, oil wells went down deeper than previously estimated as feasible. Techniques are evolving. If 2, 0r 5 pipes are inadequate in transport capacity, use more. Ask the engineers - I also claim ignorance. the geological temperature vertical map is varying according to a lot of factors. Ignorance is not a good argument for not considering (and asking). John On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: Hi John, On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:33 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a convoluted - I could say: inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed TODAY and we will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN pipe. Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for OIL, similar - if a bit longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for pumping DOWN the ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the OTHER to ascend the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. Sorry, I didn't comment out of ignorance. The idea sounds very attractive. What about depth? Is the necessary depth similar to oil extraction? And what about yield? How many of these pipes would we need to replace the energy output of a typical oil rig? Is it scalable? Cheers, Telmo. JOhn Mikes On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Chris: if you utter reservoir - you are on the wrong track. Nothing must COME OUT from the depth. Not even what YOU pumped in into open plenum. (My objection against the NZ plant). In Hungary in the 1950s a 'hot spring well' was tried to bring out 'heat' by its own pressure. By the time it reached the surface cooling a bit (and expanded(!) from the pressure) the M U D solidified into a hot mass. There was no private enterprise in commi Hungary at that time, so the idea was scrapped. John M On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Mikes *Sent:* Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:33 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Telmo: unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a convoluted - I could say: inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed TODAY and we will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN pipe. Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for OIL, similar - if a bit longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for pumping DOWN the ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the OTHER to ascend the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. JOhn Mikes If it were that easy…. Dry rock geothermal requires amongst other things large amounts of fresh water for hydraulic fracturing of the reservoir. This process needs to be repeated periodically as the reservoirs reseal up over a period of years (as is being experienced by the shale oil fracked wells) and in the case of dry rock geothermal when the heat reservoir becomes drawn down. The hot steam that comes out of the wells is too laden with minerals and salts to be used directly and it thus requires a duel loop system in which the primary loop boils water in a boiler to produce clean steam that is passed through the generators. Then there is the matter of earthquakes – including the I believe it was a 5.3 on the Richter scale tremors linked to it in Basel. Dry rock geothermal certainly does have a big upside potential – there is a whole lot of heat just a few miles below the ground, but it is not as easy or simple as you seem to think it is. For example in a lot of dry areas water supply becomes a gating factor that puts a limit on scalability – this also applies to Canadian tar sands and shale gas plays – water requirements will place a limit on how much it can scale; on the maximum annual rates of extraction that can be achieved. Chris On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
John - The term reservoir has a well understood usage, when speaking about hydraulic fracturing, to describe the engineered rock volume that is filled by micro-fissures, created by injecting water under immense pressure into the rock, at the well head. The injected slurry contains poppants. Poppants are either sand or engineered small ceramic beads. It is this gritty material that maintains the micro-fissures and allows for the creation of a three dimensional volume - i.e. the reservoir - in which water can be injected and absorb heat from the rock volume that has been exposed - a much vaster surface area - by the hydraulic fracking. I am using the term reservoir very correctly - in the terms that it is used when speaking of hydraulic fracturing. Eventually the engineered rock volume that has been created by this process of fracking begins to reseal (the overburden is immense and squeezes the micro-fissures shut over time). In addition the engineered reservoir - in the specific sense that this term is used when speaking about hydraulic fracturing - will over time become depleted as heat is removed from it. Eventually that volume of rock will get hot again, but by the time it does the engineered micro-fissures will have been squeezed shut and the reservoir will have to be re-fracked. Water is injected into this reservoir, where it is turned into hot high pressure steam that comes up the second well. This steam is far too corrosive laden with minerals to use directly and must instead be used to boil the actual water, whose high pressure steam will transfer energy into the spinning turbine. If you used the steam from the well head you would be replacing turbines every year or two. Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 2:49 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Chris: if you utter reservoir - you are on the wrong track. Nothing must COME OUT from the depth. Not even what YOU pumped in into open plenum. (My objection against the NZ plant). In Hungary in the 1950s a 'hot spring well' was tried to bring out 'heat' by its own pressure. By the time it reached the surface cooling a bit (and expanded(!) from the pressure) the M U D solidified into a hot mass. There was no private enterprise in commi Hungary at that time, so the idea was scrapped. John M On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:33 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Telmo: unfortunately I reflected to the NZ solution on another list... - it is a convoluted - I could say: inadeqyate - technology, just as the Au version of the surface utilization. SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD??? let us say: the surface? Solar woulrd cover immense surfaces just for supplying the energy as needed TODAY and we will need a multiple of that soon... See my remark to Russell. So far NOBODY was interested in my suggestions: ewverybody blows his OWN pipe. Geotherm is under our feet - dry lamd or oceans. Pipes are stuck down for OIL, similar - if a bit longer for geothermic energy extraction with 2 pipes inserted: ONE for pumping DOWN the ultrapure (Si-free) water into a heat-exchanger at ~140+C environment, the OTHER to ascend the high pressure steam straight into the turbine. No deposit, as in NZ. JOhn Mikes If it were that easy.. Dry rock geothermal requires amongst other things large amounts of fresh water for hydraulic fracturing of the reservoir. This process needs to be repeated periodically as the reservoirs reseal up over a period of years (as is being experienced by the shale oil fracked wells) and in the case of dry rock geothermal when the heat reservoir becomes drawn down. The hot steam that comes out of the wells is too laden with minerals and salts to be used directly and it thus requires a duel loop system in which the primary loop boils water in a boiler to produce clean steam that is passed through the generators. Then there is the matter of earthquakes - including the I believe it was a 5.3 on the Richter scale tremors linked to it in Basel. Dry rock geothermal certainly does have a big upside potential - there is a whole lot of heat just a few miles below the ground, but it is not as easy or simple as you seem to think it is. For example in a lot of dry areas water supply becomes a gating factor that puts a limit on scalability - this also applies to Canadian tar sands and shale gas plays - water requirements will place a limit on how much it can scale; on the maximum annual rates of extraction that can be achieved. Chris On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:39 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:39 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/14/2013 6:28 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. It might blend well with solar. There have been proposals to store solar energy by heating underground reservoirs. Large scale CSPs (concentrating solar (thermal) power) such as the new GW complex they have built in southern California use molten salt as their energy carrier. This facility can keep generating electricity well after the sun has gone down because it stores the hot molten salt (saltpeter I believe) in insulated vats. This is one of the advantages of large scale solar thermal has over PV; as soon as the sun is occulted solar PV output drops precipitously (though newer PV cells that also have band-gaps tuned for infrared energy would continue to produce some output even when clouds came overhead, because of the infrared energy.) There is a lot of money and RD being thrown at the energy storage problem and a fair number of utility scale battery types are on the RD pipeline as well as some other interesting ideas for energy storage. CSP is unique in that because it is harvesting heat it can store its energy with the same energy carrier it uses to harvest the solar energy - i.e. the molten salt. Wind, PV, etc. need to transform the electricity into another medium (unless using supercapacitors) in order to store the energy and this invariably (second law of thermodynamics) entails a process loss - and in both directions. I don't think there's any thermodynamic advantage though to a solar/molten-salt system as compared to a PV. When the sun is shining the PV produces electricity (low entropy energy) directly while the solar/salt system has to use a heat engine to get electricity. If there is excess energy the PV systems could also store in molten salt. The disadvantage for the PV system is then that it needs a heat engine too. It then incurs the same thermodynamic inefficiency when the heat engine runs off the molten salt. All valid points and with which I agree. PV systems have also been following cost curves reminiscent of that other silicon technology. Already the other system costs outweigh the cells themselves. Eventually I hope to see wide scale distributed solar PV with some benign form of energy storage. I also hope they can get the mass manufacturing costs down for multijunction cells that can harvest electrons over a wider spectrum of wavelengths. CSP systems do have this inherent ability when paired with efficient thermal reservoirs to time shift their generating capacity and deliver current onto the grid many hours after the sun has gone down. They can behave in many regards somewhat like baseload generation; not completely of course for they are still subject to longer duration periods of bad weather, but they can both smooth their output (compared to PV, which responds almost instantly to variations in light levels) and have this inherent ability to store the energy for a short duration - perhaps even several days if the tanks are super insulated. The lower efficiency of thermo-electric conversion I believe is partially made up by the higher efficiency of thermal harvesting of incident solar irradiance - I could be wrong about that though, but the best single junction PV is around 20% so maybe not that hard to beat. In the end I think large scale CSV is more of a niche supply that makes sense in some desert areas that can scale in size to the sizes needed in order to get scales of efficiency. Most electricity storage - and by a huge margin - is accomplished by pumped storage. Japan, in particular leads in this area. But traditional pumped storage suffers from siting issues
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Please understand, that unless your geothermal is really good, people will successfully complain about earthquakes caused by geothermal energy, bath in Basel, and Bavaria, if I remember right? Plus, the replacement tech that are proposed, must provide terawatts of energy, to replace the dirty. Hot rock geothermal, really deep geothermal, might solve all this, and instead of water as a working fluid to provide super-heated steam to run turbines, a working fluid like propane or methane has been proposed, or even air. The carbon fuels are captured over and over again for re-use. How costly, this is, how environmental, how technically doable-I don't know. -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 7:29 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.comwrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. It might blend well with solar. There have been proposals to store solar energy by heating underground reservoirs. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/15/2013 12:15 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: So the energy would be stored in the potential energy of the heavy piston and the water would just be a working medium? Why not put the weight on a cable and use a purely mechanical system? I'd think that could be more efficient that a water turbine. Other engineering friends of mine have levelled the same criticism of that idea. I guess the only counter argument could be that the very heavy piston's weight would be born directly by the compressed water column, Water doesn't compress. You're just using it to move the weight up and down. As far as energetics go, it's no different than a cable hoist. and that for very large masses the cable systems could present serious problems with stresses from wear -- have you ever seen when an elevator cable is un-torqued; it literally whips around as the stresses are released. Wondering about the stresses that repeated winding and unwinding of the support cables would induce. The main problem is just size. I considered designing an energy storage system to be used with home, rooftop PVs. I looked around for something heavy that could be lifted up to store energy. My car. It weighs about 2600lb. Suppose I lifted it ten feet (high as the roof). I've stored 26,000ft*lb = 10Wh :-( Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 16 November 2013 07:01, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: The main problem is just size. I considered designing an energy storage system to be used with home, rooftop PVs. I looked around for something heavy that could be lifted up to store energy. My car. It weighs about 2600lb. Suppose I lifted it ten feet (high as the roof). I've stored 26,000ft*lb = 10Wh :-( At last, a use for cars that doesn't involve carbon emissions! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 5:20 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Please understand, that unless your geothermal is really good, people will successfully complain about earthquakes caused by geothermal energy, bath in Basel, and Bavaria, if I remember right? Plus, the replacement tech that are proposed, must provide terawatts of energy, to replace the dirty. Hot rock geothermal, really deep geothermal, might solve all this, and instead of water as a working fluid to provide super-heated steam to run turbines, a working fluid like propane or methane has been proposed, or even air. The carbon fuels are captured over and over again for re-use. How costly, this is, how environmental, how technically doable-I don't know. Funny how the very same type of earthquake, that is triggered by hydraulic fracking - which is what you are referring to in Basel (and similar events also shut down a dry rock geothermal pilot in northern California) -- is now becoming widely used in order to squeeze gas and kerogen from the shale rock. It still causes the 4 to 5 on the Reichter scale tremors, but this has not shut down that sector or even slowed things down. There is a kind of earthquake double standard going on. Dry rock geothermal - which is what you are referring to - is the creation of (or enhancement of existing fields) geothermal reservoirs in hot bedrock - miles down below - through the process of hydraulic fracking ( injecting water slurry mixed with poppants (sand or manufactured ceramic beads) - the gas/shale oil secotr adds a whole slew of chemicals to this slurry such as solvents and surficants in order to try to chemically separate the kerogen and get it flowing. In theory dry rock geothermal could supply base load power in very large quantities in numerous locales on earth - the underlying geologies are quite common. However - except it seems when caused by the oil gas sector - people react very poorly to man-made earthquakes, and this poses a real problem. I would suggest they pilot this technology in remotely populated areas first to see if they can find ways to release the underlying stresses in a more gradual manner for example by changing how the hydraulic fracking process is done. The potential for this is huge, but the technological problems are also huge. As the shale oil and gas drillers are finding out a fracked reservoir will begin to seal back up and the flows will gum up as salts and other deposits infill the micro-cracks, and I imagine as the sheer weight of the overburden re-compresses these fissures - slowly crushing the poppants holding them open. For dry rock geothermal as well a fracked reservoir will get used up over time - eventually it will replenish as new heat flows in to the reservoir; after some years new reservoirs will need to be fracked. Chris -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, Nov 14, 2013 7:29 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. It might blend well with solar. There have been proposals to store solar energy by heating underground reservoirs. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 10:02 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/15/2013 12:15 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: So the energy would be stored in the potential energy of the heavy piston and the water would just be a working medium? Why not put the weight on a cable and use a purely mechanical system? I'd think that could be more efficient that a water turbine. Other engineering friends of mine have levelled the same criticism of that idea. I guess the only counter argument could be that the very heavy piston's weight would be born directly by the compressed water column, Water doesn't compress. You're just using it to move the weight up and down. As far as energetics go, it's no different than a cable hoist. I realize that - what I meant to say is that the water column bears the weight - hence no need for a cabling system. Water that is put under pressure will occupy the same volume, but will have a potential energy (as long as that pressure is maintained) that a similar water column not under pressure will not have. and that for very large masses the cable systems could present serious problems with stresses from wear - have you ever seen when an elevator cable is un-torqued; it literally whips around as the stresses are released. Wondering about the stresses that repeated winding and unwinding of the support cables would induce. The main problem is just size. I considered designing an energy storage system to be used with home, rooftop PVs. I looked around for something heavy that could be lifted up to store energy. My car. It weighs about 2600lb. Suppose I lifted it ten feet (high as the roof). I've stored 26,000ft*lb = 10Wh :-( Friends of mine and I have kicked similar ideas - rail cars loaded with low grade (but quite dense) iron ore that are cable hoisted up an ridiculously steep grade and turn a generator when they slowly travel back down. Again - we have been disappointed by the capacity.. All of this for that? SO I hear you. Clearly the mass that is moved between the high reservoir and the low reservoir has to be quite immense - probably why only pumped storage makes sense for this kind of kinetic potential energy storage. Certainly thought the full reservoir behind a damn has a huge potential energy. Japan - approximate figures from memory - has a pumped storage capacity built out that is somewhere around 10% of its total capacity, which is a pretty impressive figure. Chris Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 13 Nov 2013, at 17:43, meekerdb wrote: On 11/13/2013 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 Nov 2013, at 22:10, Alberto G. Corona wrote: As human beings they were reluctant to provide hard earned data to those who had proved to mere critics - like you - with no interest but to spread doubt. Can ever have been a more clear confession of sectarianism ? Doubt about what? about what yours affirm that is truth and must be taken as face value? Is that the new conception of science and the one that Popper et al teach to me is ourdated? Global warning cannot be a question of science. ?? We only know it exists because of science. Sorry, I was talking about the link between human's activity and global warming. But even the truth of it can't be science, and you should say we *believe* it exists because that is the way we interpret the data. It is a question of mondial/global politics, and in this case I believe that even few evidence for some something irreversible and possibly fatal for a planet should be avoided when possible. That's why science is of no direct use in politics. Science is doubt, and politics is decision. I use that argument to defend an ecological and economical precaution principle valid in global planetary decision which might be irreversible and possibly lethal, but also for positive decision like investing on asteroids and the means to deviate them. When science is directly used in politics, it becomes pseudo- religious crap. We *have to* take care of the planet, simply. It is not a question of surviving, but of quality of life. (That's why also global warming is way out of topics ...: it is a matter of voting and politicians). As you said (I think) science must be separated from politics (in the two senses). But both global warming and asteroid strikes are something we know about only through science. You seems to imply that science should not inform political action? Then how else can political action be informed? I am not saying that political action should not be informed by science, quite the contrary, but science can only offer beliefs and degree of plausibility, and we know not much, and must act in absence of any certainty in the matter. In this case, what I say, is that politicians, by lying systematically for a long period on important domains (health/drug, now terror, etc.) seems to misuse science, and often use pseudo-science to develop fear selling technics, and control what people can think, disallowing the natural competition between possible products. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 13 Nov 2013, at 23:27, meekerdb wrote: On 11/13/2013 11:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The catholic and the chihite, This one: http://lordblumiere.deviantart.com/art/Chihite-Angelorum-61177983 Sorry, I was using the french terming. I was referring to those following Shi'a Islam, or Shi'it Islam. Like Catholic, they believe in sort of pope, (Ayatollah, expert on Allah (God)) who can act like selected authorities on civil or political matter, unlike the Sunni, or the protestant. Like Catholics, the Shi'it tend more easily to mix state and religion, by conferring to much divine authority to humans. That is palpable in today's Iran (which is mainly shi'it). Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 13 Nov 2013, at 23:43, meekerdb wrote: On 11/13/2013 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: What is legal? Guns, oil, car, tobacco, alcohol, those things kill a lot, and none are/were really necessary. Killing people with guns (or otherwise) is generally illegal. I think it is a good idea, except for legitimate self-defense of course. death penalty is still legally applied in some country, and it is a modern inhuman nonsense to me. Of course it makes room in jaill, so that we can put smokers in them ... :( Very few things are necessary to live - but many things are desirable. Sure. But many many things are made desirable by advertizing, some of which are just lies. What is illegal? Hemp, Tabernanthe iboga, magic mushrooms, LSD, ... Without any argument that they lead to serious problem, when used with moderation and responsibility, following the user guide. Legalize all of those stuff, and tax proportionally to the real troubles. People are not stupid, they will adapt convenably. Hmm? How shall we tax proportionately for polluting the atmosphere, the water table? (the water table ?) We do have tools. On some radio channel they give the day by day pollution state of of the main cities. Carbon taxes already plays such a role. But this done not make any sense if alternative are not allowed, because we cannot even measure the difference. The energy/pollution problem is a tough problem, but it has been made unsolvable by purposeful mind pollution, through lies coming systematically from the top. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . JM On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:07 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead. Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas. So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached peak silicon. Another other issue is energy efficiency. Mining the raw materials and then transforming them into solar panels takes a certain energy budget. Then these panels last for some years. Then you have to build new ones. The more you remove fossil fuel from the equation, the more you have to rely on the solar panels energy to pay for the energy budget of the next generation. Notice that you also have to store a lot of energy because of seasonal effects, day an night and so on. This takes some sort of capacitor with its own energy budget. I don't think it's clear that all this could become self-sustainable with our current technology. Remember that we still have to provide for the 7 billion humans while paying these energy investments -- and I mean paying in terms of energy, doesn't matter if we're under cut-throat capitalism or a socialist utopia, this economic fact remains. In fact, defeating our dependency on fossil fuels and curbing our CO2 emissions are antagonistic goals. To bootstrap the great solar panel farm we need a lot of energy upfront. The faster you want to do it, the more of this energy has to come from fossil fuels. Then you have two options: increase CO2 emissions or use energy that you would normally use to keep the 7 billion people alive. The faster you do it and the more you rely on the second option, the more human suffering you will cause. We're mot talking about trivial inconveniences either, we're talking about millions and millions dying from starvation, cold and disease. It is tempting to assume that we can go back to a simpler lifestyle and make do with less, but this regards that the current carrying capacity was made possible by the energy budget provided by fossil fuels. Before the energy revolution there were orders of magnitude less human beings on earth, and the complexity of human society was much lower. Organising 7 billion people to live somewhat peacefully on a small planet is no trivial matter. You cannot disregard
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com mailto:jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. It might blend well with solar. There have been proposals to store solar energy by heating underground reservoirs. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 15 November 2013 13:29, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. It might blend well with solar. There have been proposals to store solar energy by heating underground reservoirs. That sounds good. The problem with it is of course night (and clouds) so methods of storage (or a world-wide power grid?) are important. (Although despite being intermittent, it could still take up some of the load and reduce emissions.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. It might blend well with solar. There have been proposals to store solar energy by heating underground reservoirs. Large scale CSPs (concentrating solar (thermal) power) such as the new GW complex they have built in southern California use molten salt as their energy carrier. This facility can keep generating electricity well after the sun has gone down because it stores the hot molten salt (saltpeter I believe) in insulated vats. This is one of the advantages of large scale solar thermal has over PV; as soon as the sun is occulted solar PV output drops precipitously (though newer PV cells that also have band-gaps tuned for infrared energy would continue to produce some output even when clouds came overhead, because of the infrared energy.) There is a lot of money and RD being thrown at the energy storage problem and a fair number of utility scale battery types are on the RD pipeline as well as some other interesting ideas for energy storage. CSP is unique in that because it is harvesting heat it can store its energy with the same energy carrier it uses to harvest the solar energy - i.e. the molten salt. Wind, PV, etc. need to transform the electricity into another medium (unless using supercapacitors) in order to store the energy and this invariably (second law of thermodynamics) entails a process loss - and in both directions. Most electricity storage - and by a huge margin - is accomplished by pumped storage. Japan, in particular leads in this area. But traditional pumped storage suffers from siting issues. I have looked at some novel pumped storage proposals that instead bore deep cylinders with a moving and very massive (heavy) piston. The system would have a low pressure upper reservoir and a high pressure lower reservoir below the piston. To draw energy down water from the high pressure reservoir is run through a turbine to generate electricity and flows into the spent reservoir above the piston (which descends towards the bottom of the cylinder); to re-charge the battery electricity is consumed to run the generator/turbine in reverse and pump the water (or other working fluid) from the low pressure reservoir, back into the high pressure one. Air pressure is also used (Alabama). Chris Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/14/2013 6:28 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:*everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *meekerdb *Sent:* Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:29 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/14/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 November 2013 11:39, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com mailto:jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo and other 'experts': why does nobody even mention the geothermic energy app - available in huge Q-s and so far tapped only in (literalily) 'superficial' usage. The high pressure ultra-clean steam from a deepened modification of the exhausted oil wells may provide much much more energy than today's needs, so it could serve as driving force for more than we think by ongoing technology. (E.g. potable water, agri-irrigation, when fresh-water becomes scarce - like now - pollution-free transportation, keeping politicians in asylum, etc.) . I assume you mean geothermal energy. It is used in New Zealand but doesn't provide as much energy as wind and hydro as far as I know. It's an option in some parts of the world, certainly, but I would say solar is more readily available overall. It might blend well with solar. There have been proposals to store solar energy by heating underground reservoirs. Large scale CSPs (concentrating solar (thermal) power) such as the new GW complex they have built in southern California use molten salt as their energy carrier. This facility can keep generating electricity well after the sun has gone down because it stores the hot molten salt (saltpeter I believe) in insulated vats. This is one of the advantages of large scale solar thermal has over PV; as soon as the sun is occulted solar PV output drops precipitously (though newer PV cells that also have band-gaps tuned for infrared energy would continue to produce some output even when clouds came overhead, because of the infrared energy.) There is a lot of money and RD being thrown at the energy storage problem and a fair number of utility scale battery types are on the RD pipeline as well as some other interesting ideas for energy storage. CSP is unique in that because it is harvesting heat it can store its energy with the same energy carrier it uses to harvest the solar energy -- i.e. the molten salt. Wind, PV, etc. need to transform the electricity into another medium (unless using supercapacitors) in order to store the energy and this invariably (second law of thermodynamics) entails a process loss -- and in both directions. I don't think there's any thermodynamic advantage though to a solar/molten-salt system as compared to a PV. When the sun is shining the PV produces electricity (low entropy energy) directly while the solar/salt system has to use a heat engine to get electricity. If there is excess energy the PV systems could also store in molten salt. The disadvantage for the PV system is then that it needs a heat engine too. It then incurs the same thermodynamic inefficiency when the heat engine runs off the molten salt. Most electricity storage -- and by a huge margin -- is accomplished by pumped storage. Japan, in particular leads in this area. But traditional pumped storage suffers from siting issues. I have looked at some novel pumped storage proposals that instead bore deep cylinders with a moving and very massive (heavy) piston. The system would have a low pressure upper reservoir and a high pressure lower reservoir below the piston. To draw energy down water from the high pressure reservoir is run through a turbine to generate electricity and flows into the spent reservoir above the piston (which descends towards the bottom of the cylinder); to re-charge the battery electricity is consumed to run the generator/turbine in reverse and pump the water (or other working fluid) from the low pressure reservoir, back into the high pressure one. Air pressure is also used (Alabama). So the energy would be stored in the potential energy of the heavy piston and the water would just be a working medium? Why not put the weight on a cable and use a purely mechanical system? I'd think that could be more efficient that a water turbine. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Of course comrade. Why don´t you translate to Europe? Here our party is not only in the University, but in the media too. Here the truth is said: Every disaster is a product of greedy American capitalism, or barbarious zionism. But better though, We need you there in the Capitalist land. Salam alecum. This was sent from my Iphone 2013/11/13 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 12 November 2013 22:56, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was perverted by the deniers? I have no option but to think that you believe en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming apocalypse. And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me. Or you could look at TV advertising, with big expensive ads for cars, or at the paper with pull out sections which are trying to sell cars, or you could look at the TV news, which despite reporting virtually a new climate related disaster every week now, hardly ever mentions that it might be linked to global warming (unless it's to point out that no single storn can be directly linked to global warming - the only mention I've heard recently). Now add up how many people read science magazines and how many watch car adverts on TV. Now maybe you can see who is in charge of shaping our opinions. When car ads are banned, as cigarette ads are, there may be some tiny amount of truth in what you say. (Although by the time *that* happens, Auckland will probably be underwater.) But until then, the deniers are firmly in control. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 12 Nov 2013, at 22:10, Alberto G. Corona wrote: As human beings they were reluctant to provide hard earned data to those who had proved to mere critics - like you - with no interest but to spread doubt. Can ever have been a more clear confession of sectarianism ? Doubt about what? about what yours affirm that is truth and must be taken as face value? Is that the new conception of science and the one that Popper et al teach to me is ourdated? Global warning cannot be a question of science. It is a question of mondial/global politics, and in this case I believe that even few evidence for some something irreversible and possibly fatal for a planet should be avoided when possible. That's why science is of no direct use in politics. Science is doubt, and politics is decision. I use that argument to defend an ecological and economical precaution principle valid in global planetary decision which might be irreversible and possibly lethal, but also for positive decision like investing on asteroids and the means to deviate them. When science is directly used in politics, it becomes pseudo-religious crap. We *have to* take care of the planet, simply. It is not a question of surviving, but of quality of life. (That's why also global warming is way out of topics ...: it is a matter of voting and politicians). As you said (I think) science must be separated from politics (in the two senses). Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead. Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas. So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached peak silicon. Another other issue is energy efficiency. Mining the raw materials and then transforming them into solar panels takes a certain energy budget. Then these panels last for some years. Then you have to build new ones. The more you remove fossil fuel from the equation, the more you have to rely on the solar panels energy to pay for the energy budget of the next generation. Notice that you also have to store a lot of energy because of seasonal effects, day an night and so on. This takes some sort of capacitor with its own energy budget. I don't think it's clear that all this could become self-sustainable with our current technology. Remember that we still have to provide for the 7 billion humans while paying these energy investments -- and I mean paying in terms of energy, doesn't matter if we're under cut-throat capitalism or a socialist utopia, this economic fact remains. In fact, defeating our dependency on fossil fuels and curbing our CO2 emissions are antagonistic goals. To bootstrap the great solar panel farm we need a lot of energy upfront. The faster you want to do it, the more of this energy has to come from fossil fuels. Then you have two options: increase CO2 emissions or use energy that you would normally use to keep the 7 billion people alive. The faster you do it and the more you rely on the second option, the more human suffering you will cause. We're mot talking about trivial inconveniences either, we're talking about millions and millions dying from starvation, cold and disease. It is tempting to assume that we can go back to a simpler lifestyle and make do with less, but this regards that the current carrying capacity was made possible by the energy budget provided by fossil fuels. Before the energy revolution there were orders of magnitude less human beings on earth, and the complexity of human society was much lower. Organising 7 billion people to live somewhat peacefully on a small planet is no trivial matter. You cannot disregard economic and social effects. We are not talking about some tribe here. A bit of politics, sorry -- part of the reason I am for less government is that I think that this level of complexity vastly outgrown human intelligence. Nobody can manage this, it has to be self-organising to a large degree. And it is. Where there is more central control, there is also more human suffering, case in point: China. They had to resort to enforcing a child birth budget to manage both the energy budget and the complexity. The same principles apply to wind power and all other renewable source we know of. They have horrible efficiency compared to fossil -- efficiency as in energy investments required vs. total yield. A technology breakthrough could change things, but then we're relying on something that might not even be possible. Here's an interesting report that analyses both energy budget issues and complexity: http://www.feasta.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Tipping-Point-Nov.pdf Telmo. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 12 Nov 2013, at 22:47, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Indeed. I look at things a bit different, perhaps. then yourself. I see it, us, as being set against obliteration versus existence. It is never between obliteration and existence, it is always between good quality of life and bad quality of life. I realize that the ASSA/RSSA discussion is, after all, related to the global warming politics, after all. But not a the decision theoretic level (which is 1p, making things complex there). If people have to understand comp to have the right common sense politics, then we are doomed! No worry, that's not entirely the case. Ironically, those NOT understanding comp (like Brent) are correct on the political decision (manage better the CO2 emission). That's correct, for an invalid reason, ... Bruno Mitch -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:12 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Thus said, because there are eternal laws, there are eternal truths. For the materialists, Konrad Lorenz said something extraordinarily profound that connect two universes of knowledge: The Kantian apriori of knowledge have been inserted in our brain/mind/soul by evolution in the form of intuitions, processing of the senses and other instinctive elements without which not only knowledge but existence would be impossible. They are US in a literal sense. That means that the eternal truths are around us, but primarily also in ourselves, in this instinctive knowledge gained trough evolution, about ourselves, about others and about the world. It includes from the very basic: the perception of space and time, that Roger talk about from time to time, to the commons sense to the the highest truths about what is good and what is bad. 2013/11/12 spudboy...@aol.com I agree and understand, Alberto, with your elegy. Mitch -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World To spudboy: Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you think that your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong. What you must say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher passions, for example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth. But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional, because the ultimate arbiter of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain if you like) is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are unavoidably passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of the mind, or whathever you may call it, in the light of experience, philosophy or evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is passional. Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us, and ours away from entropic obliteration, 2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame no blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that anything of the sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally there is a whole range of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some humans have transcended it all… they say Buddha did, but the rest of us to one degree or another suffer from our own blind failings. It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with readymade answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in a field survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down response. Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds. Often, especially in situations, such as can develop on internet discussion groups, primitive instincts take over – I have seen it, so have you, so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral modes to the fore. Re
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 13 November 2013 22:06, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead. Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas. Not just that. A lot of fertiliser is made from oil, apparently, so we are literally eating the stuff too. So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached peak silicon. There are already carbon based solar panels, plus silicon itself is cheap, cheap, cheap - another name for it is sand! :) The point is that technology can also go exponential. Solar panels have been dropping in price and becoming easier to produce for the last couple of decades. Cell phones are already revolutionising third world agriculture, because they are now so cheap to produce. With any luck (or rather tech) solar panels will continue to drop in price and become easier to produce and use - panels you can put on your windows and run a wire from, panels that can be put onto the sides of office buildings, etc. The great thing is there is far more solar power available than we need. (The next step is to use solar power to extract carbon from the air...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Wikipedia on the price of solar panels. The last sentence shows the Moore's law type trend which I hope will continue. Average pricing information divides in three pricing categories: those buying small quantities (modules of all sizes in the kilowatt range annually), mid-range buyers (typically up to 10 MWphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MWpannually), and large quantity buyers (self-explanatory—and with access to the lowest prices). Over the long term there is clearly a systematic reduction in the price of cells and modules. For example in 2012 it was estimated that the quantity cost per watt was about $0.60, which was 250 times lower than the cost in 1970 of $150.[21]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_panels#cite_note-21 [22] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_panels#cite_note-22 Some sunny countries have already reached grid parity where solar power is as cheap as mains power. If the downward price trend continues solar will soon become the best option for everything except transport (assuming it can be put into a grid and sent where needed, that is, otherwise it will be the best option while the sun is shining or some has been stored). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Bruno. Thanks for your measured style and your gentle responses, as always. But the prevention principle, that has been incorporated to the French Constitution a few years ago, has disastrous consequences. We have only one planet. But we have only one France. And we have only one life. And we have many young people, but all and veryone are unique. By the principle of prevention, the slightest hint that some activity can be dangerous for such a long list of things and a lot more, then this activity should be stopped or severely regulated by adequately paid bureaucrats. Who decide what and how to regulate? Response: the enlightened ones. Not the scientists, but the ones aware of COMP 1p and 3p. Comrades, the future is ours. And meekerdb after a two days course about 1p-3p, could join the avant-garde of the COMP manifesto. for the well being for all the planet! 2013/11/13 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 12 Nov 2013, at 22:47, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Indeed. I look at things a bit different, perhaps. then yourself. I see it, us, as being set against obliteration versus existence. It is never between obliteration and existence, it is always between good quality of life and bad quality of life. I realize that the ASSA/RSSA discussion is, after all, related to the global warming politics, after all. But not a the decision theoretic level (which is 1p, making things complex there). If people have to understand comp to have the right common sense politics, then we are doomed! No worry, that's not entirely the case. Ironically, those NOT understanding comp (like Brent) are correct on the political decision (manage better the CO2 emission). That's correct, for an invalid reason, ... Bruno Mitch -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:12 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Thus said, because there are eternal laws, there are eternal truths. For the materialists, Konrad Lorenz said something extraordinarily profound that connect two universes of knowledge: The Kantian apriori of knowledge have been inserted in our brain/mind/soul by evolution in the form of intuitions, processing of the senses and other instinctive elements without which not only knowledge but existence would be impossible. They are US in a literal sense. That means that the eternal truths are around us, but primarily also in ourselves, in this instinctive knowledge gained trough evolution, about ourselves, about others and about the world. It includes from the very basic: the perception of space and time, that Roger talk about from time to time, to the commons sense to the the highest truths about what is good and what is bad. 2013/11/12 spudboy...@aol.com I agree and understand, Alberto, with your elegy. Mitch -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World To spudboy: Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you think that your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong. What you must say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher passions, for example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth. But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional, because the ultimate arbiter of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain if you like) is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are unavoidably passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of the mind, or whathever you may call it, in the light of experience, philosophy or evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is passional. Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us, and ours away from entropic obliteration, 2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [ mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.comeverything-list@googlegroups.com ] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame no blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that anything of the sort could possibly be so
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 10:18 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 November 2013 22:06, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead. Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas. Not just that. A lot of fertiliser is made from oil, apparently, so we are literally eating the stuff too. So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached peak silicon. There are already carbon based solar panels, Cool. plus silicon itself is cheap, cheap, cheap - another name for it is sand! :) Ok but you have to heat the sand in furnaces to more than 2,000°C. And transport the sand and so on. It's the fossil fuels that make these things cheap. I'm not saying that they cannot also be cheap with sustainable energy sources, I'm arguing that it's not trivial to bootstrap the transition, and that in fact it might be terribly hard. I really want it to be possible, by the way. I'm not arguing against the desirability of the goal. The point is that technology can also go exponential. I agree. I tend to put more faith in technology than politics, but recent events also made me more aware of the unintended consequences of technology. I was an Internet utopian and now I'm a bit depressed, for example :) Solar panels have been dropping in price and becoming easier to produce for the last couple of decades. Cell phones are already revolutionising third world agriculture, because they are now so cheap to produce. With any luck (or rather tech) solar panels will continue to drop in price and become easier to produce and use - panels you can put on your windows and run a wire from, panels that can be put onto the sides of office buildings, etc. The great thing is there is far more solar power available than we need. This is all true, but it is also true that we currently run on fossil fuels and this is the energy source we have available to bootstrap the next stage, barring a catastrophic level of human suffering. Or there could be a major technological breakthrough, as you say. I am skeptical of idea that the fossil fuel feudal lords are hiding this tech from us. Not because they are not sufficiently evil, but because there would be too much money to be made by other feudal lords by adopting it. In fact, if my understanding of geopolitics is correct, the western elites would probably prefer to be less dependent on arab countries for their energy needs. I could be completely wrong, and am more than willing to be corrected. Telmo. (The next step is to use solar power to extract carbon from the air...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 13 Nov 2013, at 10:32, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Bruno. Thanks for your measured style and your gentle responses, as always. But the prevention principle, that has been incorporated to the French Constitution a few years ago, has disastrous consequences. We have only one planet. But we have only one France. The planet is our home to all of us. France is not. I have been very angry that a country put the precaution principle in the constitution. And we have only one life. (That's not obvious, and probably wrong, but not relevant in this issue). And we have many young people, but all and veryone are unique. By the principle of prevention, the slightest hint that some activity can be dangerous for such a long list of things and a lot more, then this activity should be stopped or severely regulated by adequately paid bureaucrats. I am just saying that if we can do something less GLOBALLY irreversible, then we should follow the alternative. Who decide what and how to regulate? Response: the enlightened ones. Not the scientists, but the ones aware of COMP 1p and 3p. Comrades, the future is ours. And meekerdb after a two days course about 1p-3p, could join the avant-garde of the COMP manifesto. for the well being for all the planet! Actually it is very complex, and very simple. I believe that the entire economical and possible ecological crisis is not due to capitalism, nor to democracies freedom, but is due to unscrupulous bandits. The FDA approved genetically modified crops. Good news, why not if it can help us and our children, but the FDA lied about cannabis for many years, so how could I trust them? It is a big problem because the value of money is based on two things: no duplication (that why virtual coin needs cryptography), and trust. As long as cannabis is not made legal, with some apology, how could I trust politicians on *any* subject, beyond the obvious? Also, I am against prohibition of any products, including oil, but prohibition of hemp has lead to making oil quasi obligatory. So the problem is not oil (and fossil fuel), the problem is the unfair competition brought by people having private interest, and the disinformation they have spread and are still spreading. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
I would be easy to make a joke of your comments about cannabis, but it would not have been fair. But If I take it seriously, I can not figh both conspiranoic theories in the same thread. The deniers of global warming hell and the deniers of cannabis heaven. It´s too much for me. 2013/11/13 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 13 Nov 2013, at 10:32, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Bruno. Thanks for your measured style and your gentle responses, as always. But the prevention principle, that has been incorporated to the French Constitution a few years ago, has disastrous consequences. We have only one planet. But we have only one France. The planet is our home to all of us. France is not. I have been very angry that a country put the precaution principle in the constitution. And we have only one life. (That's not obvious, and probably wrong, but not relevant in this issue). And we have many young people, but all and veryone are unique. By the principle of prevention, the slightest hint that some activity can be dangerous for such a long list of things and a lot more, then this activity should be stopped or severely regulated by adequately paid bureaucrats. I am just saying that if we can do something less GLOBALLY irreversible, then we should follow the alternative. Who decide what and how to regulate? Response: the enlightened ones. Not the scientists, but the ones aware of COMP 1p and 3p. Comrades, the future is ours. And meekerdb after a two days course about 1p-3p, could join the avant-garde of the COMP manifesto. for the well being for all the planet! Actually it is very complex, and very simple. I believe that the entire economical and possible ecological crisis is not due to capitalism, nor to democracies freedom, but is due to unscrupulous bandits. The FDA approved genetically modified crops. Good news, why not if it can help us and our children, but the FDA lied about cannabis for many years, so how could I trust them? It is a big problem because the value of money is based on two things: no duplication (that why virtual coin needs cryptography), and trust. As long as cannabis is not made legal, with some apology, how could I trust politicians on *any* subject, beyond the obvious? Also, I am against prohibition of any products, including oil, but prohibition of hemp has lead to making oil quasi obligatory. So the problem is not oil (and fossil fuel), the problem is the unfair competition brought by people having private interest, and the disinformation they have spread and are still spreading. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
I get your point completely. The financial motivation, is, of course, always there. My point is, if this easily, doable, somebody on Earth somewhere, would fling their middle finger to the oil companies direction, by building and supporting an example. My belief is that going solar is a very, hard, technical, problem to resolve. That somebody in Japan, China, Israel, Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia, India, Argentina, Australia, in Essex, in France, Switzerland, would have constructed such a system already. If it was easy problem, I wouldn't be so belligerent, on getting this right. I would concede that solar is on its way, so what am I bitching about? You are asking to shut off the dirty stuff quickly, and I am saying don't do it, unless we have replacement source, at the ready. Mitch -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/13/2013 12:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 Nov 2013, at 22:10, Alberto G. Corona wrote: As human beings they were reluctant to provide hard earned data to those who had proved to mere critics - like you - with no interest but to spread doubt. Can ever have been a more clear confession of sectarianism ? Doubt about what? about what yours affirm that is truth and must be taken as face value? Is that the new conception of science and the one that Popper et al teach to me is ourdated? Global warning cannot be a question of science. ?? We only know it exists because of science. It is a question of mondial/global politics, and in this case I believe that even few evidence for some something irreversible and possibly fatal for a planet should be avoided when possible. That's why science is of no direct use in politics. Science is doubt, and politics is decision. I use that argument to defend an ecological and economical precaution principle valid in global planetary decision which might be irreversible and possibly lethal, but also for positive decision like investing on asteroids and the means to deviate them. When science is directly used in politics, it becomes pseudo-religious crap. We *have to* take care of the planet, simply. It is not a question of surviving, but of quality of life. (That's why also global warming is way out of topics ...: it is a matter of voting and politicians). As you said (I think) science must be separated from politics (in the two senses). But both global warming and asteroid strikes are something we know about only through science. You seems to imply that science should not inform political action? Then how else can political action be informed? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
Such nastiness – it only makes you come across as highly unpleasant, which perhaps you, in fact are. From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 12:17 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Of course comrade. Why don´t you translate to Europe? Here our party is not only in the University, but in the media too. Here the truth is said: Every disaster is a product of greedy American capitalism, or barbarious zionism. But better though, We need you there in the Capitalist land. Salam alecum. This was sent from my Iphone 2013/11/13 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 12 November 2013 22:56, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was perverted by the deniers? I have no option but to think that you believe en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming apocalypse. And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me. Or you could look at TV advertising, with big expensive ads for cars, or at the paper with pull out sections which are trying to sell cars, or you could look at the TV news, which despite reporting virtually a new climate related disaster every week now, hardly ever mentions that it might be linked to global warming (unless it's to point out that no single storn can be directly linked to global warming - the only mention I've heard recently). Now add up how many people read science magazines and how many watch car adverts on TV. Now maybe you can see who is in charge of shaping our opinions. When car ads are banned, as cigarette ads are, there may be some tiny amount of truth in what you say. (Although by the time that happens, Auckland will probably be underwater.) But until then, the deniers are firmly in control. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:07 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead. Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas. So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached peak silicon. Another other issue is energy efficiency. Mining the raw materials and then transforming them into solar panels takes a certain energy budget. Then these panels last for some years. Then you have to build new ones. The more you remove fossil fuel from the equation, the more you have to rely on the solar panels energy to pay for the energy budget of the next generation. Notice that you also have to store a lot of energy because of seasonal effects, day an night and so on. This takes some sort of capacitor with its own energy budget. I don't think it's clear that all this could become self-sustainable with our current technology. Remember that we still have to provide for the 7 billion humans while paying these energy investments -- and I mean paying in terms of energy, doesn't matter if we're under cut-throat capitalism or a socialist utopia, this economic fact remains. In fact, defeating our dependency on fossil fuels and curbing our CO2 emissions are antagonistic goals. To bootstrap the great solar panel farm we need a lot of energy upfront. The faster you want to do it, the more of this energy has to come from fossil fuels. Then you have two options: increase CO2 emissions or use energy that you would normally use to keep the 7 billion people alive. The faster you do it and the more you rely on the second option, the more human suffering you will cause. We're mot talking about trivial inconveniences either, we're talking about millions and millions dying from starvation, cold and disease. It is tempting to assume that we can go back to a simpler lifestyle and make do with less, but this regards that the current carrying capacity was made possible by the energy budget provided by fossil fuels. Before the energy revolution there were orders of magnitude less human beings on earth, and the complexity of human society was much lower. Organising 7 billion people to live somewhat peacefully on a small planet is no trivial matter. You cannot disregard economic and social effects. We are not talking about some tribe here. A bit of politics, sorry -- part of the reason I am for less government is that I think that this level of complexity vastly outgrown human intelligence. Nobody can manage this, it has to be self-organising to a large degree. And it is. Where there is more central control, there is also more human suffering, case in point: China. They had to resort to enforcing a child birth budget to manage both the energy budget and the complexity. The same principles apply to wind power and all other renewable source we know of. They have horrible efficiency compared to fossil -- efficiency as in energy investments required vs. total yield. A technology breakthrough could change things, but then we're relying on something that might not even be possible. Well said, and I agree with everything
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
2013/11/13 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com Such nastiness – it only makes you come across as highly unpleasant, which perhaps you, in fact are. Come on... You jumped of from your black helicopter and other than that you have nothing smart to say. *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona *Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2013 12:17 AM *To:* everything-list *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Of course comrade. Why don´t you translate to Europe? Here our party is not only in the University, but in the media too. Here the truth is said: Every disaster is a product of greedy American capitalism, or barbarious zionism. But better though, We need you there in the Capitalist land. Salam alecum. This was sent from my Iphone 2013/11/13 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 12 November 2013 22:56, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was perverted by the deniers? I have no option but to think that you believe en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming apocalypse. And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me. Or you could look at TV advertising, with big expensive ads for cars, or at the paper with pull out sections which are trying to sell cars, or you could look at the TV news, which despite reporting virtually a new climate related disaster every week now, hardly ever mentions that it might be linked to global warming (unless it's to point out that no single storn can be directly linked to global warming - the only mention I've heard recently). Now add up how many people read science magazines and how many watch car adverts on TV. Now maybe you can see who is in charge of shaping our opinions. When car ads are banned, as cigarette ads are, there may be some tiny amount of truth in what you say. (Although by the time *that* happens, Auckland will probably be underwater.) But until then, the deniers are firmly in control. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/13/2013 1:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at the moment. I don't know what you mean by this? Are you implying that it is like teleportation or interstellar space flight? Those are things that we don't know how to do. But solar power is everywhere and we've known how to do it for a long time. It's just not the common source of power because fossil fuel is cheaper (assuming you don't pay for the side effects) and more convenient. As Liz says, if we put the effort into it that we've put into war we could replace all fossil fuel generation of electricity in a couple of decades. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/13/2013 2:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: That is not bad in principle, is what is it and is human nature. But in anomial societies like the modern West, where the small comunities were lost time ago, and the christian faith that created a big sense of comunity for all the West also has been lost, drive many desperate people, fundamentally ateistic or agnostic to coalesce around whatever crazy idea that a leader or group of authorities tell to him. Crazy ideas like freedom of conscience, private enterprise, preserving the environment...instead of those great old theistic ideas like ignorance, faith, piety, and burning heretics. Brent True, secular values can turn a civilization inside out. In post-Christian Europe, entire nations have been plunged into endemic health, skyrocketing education and hopelessly low rates of violent crime. --- Austin Dacey, NY Times 3 Feb 2006 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/13/2013 2:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Also, I am against prohibition of any products, including oil, but prohibition of hemp has lead to making oil quasi obligatory. So the problem is not oil (and fossil fuel), the problem is the unfair competition brought by people having private interest, and the disinformation they have spread and are still spreading. You think we could power modern society by burning hemp?? The fossil fuel industry is not run by bandits, just by people who want to make money by providing energy to people who will pay for it. The problem is that there are global environmental side effects which were not appreciated before the development of a huge infrastructure based on fossil fuel...and the cost of mitigating these side effects has not been paid by the users. It's a tragedy of the commons. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Interesting paper, except the Limits to Growth hypothesis is likely remediated by changing economics and changing tech. There was a bet 30 years ago by Paul Erhlich of The Population Bomb fame, and the guy who wrote Infinite Resources. The later one, based on the coast of raw materials in 20 year. $1000.00 prize and Ehrlich paid up. The solar problem seems very hard, despite great advances in graphene solar cells. One problem is storage. One possible answer is oceanic hydro-electric, specifically pumped storage-or it may be a wash out? According to Gerard O'Neil, at Princeton, observed Scientists often over estimate the impact of breakthroughs and under estimate the impact of straight forward advances on what we already know. Maybe pumped storage at the sea side is one of these? We now know the impact of 3D printing, seemingly out of no where. Mitch -Original Message- From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2013 4:06 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead. Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas. So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached peak silicon. Another other issue is energy efficiency. Mining the raw materials and then transforming them into solar panels takes a certain energy budget. Then these panels last for some years. Then you have to build new ones. The more you remove fossil fuel from the equation, the more you have to rely on the solar panels energy to pay for the energy budget of the next generation. Notice that you also have to store a lot of energy because of seasonal effects, day an night and so on. This takes some sort of capacitor with its own energy budget. I don't think it's clear that all this could become self-sustainable with our current technology. Remember that we still have to provide for the 7 billion humans while paying these energy investments -- and I mean paying in terms of energy, doesn't matter if we're under cut-throat capitalism or a socialist utopia, this economic fact remains. In fact, defeating our dependency on fossil fuels and curbing our CO2 emissions are antagonistic goals. To bootstrap the great solar panel farm we need a lot of energy upfront. The faster you want to do it, the more of this energy has to come from fossil fuels. Then you have two options: increase CO2 emissions or use energy that you would normally use to keep the 7 billion people alive. The faster you do it and the more you rely on the second option, the more human suffering you will cause. We're mot talking about trivial inconveniences either, we're talking about millions and millions dying from starvation, cold and disease. It is tempting to assume that we can go back to a simpler lifestyle and make do with less, but this regards that the current carrying capacity was made possible by the energy budget provided by fossil fuels. Before the energy revolution there were orders of magnitude less human beings on earth, and the complexity of human society was much lower. Organising 7 billion people to live somewhat peacefully on a small planet is no trivial matter. You cannot disregard economic and social effects. We are not talking
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 13 Nov 2013, at 12:54, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I would be easy to make a joke of your comments about cannabis, but it would not have been fair. No problem. But If I take it seriously, I can not figh both conspiranoic theories in the same thread. Thanks for not using the conspiracy theory label, which nowadays means crackpot. (Conspirators can only be happy!) The deniers of global warming hell and the deniers of cannabis heaven. It´s too much for me. No, it is that in both cases some evidences add up, and the people are more and more to share their views, and propose a different theory. Concerning the plant, there are evidences that cannabis can cure about 2000 diseases, and that its inebriation is well, infinitely less fatal, than aspirin, chocolate, alcohol or even water. There are evidences that all proofs of its danger contains (gross) misuses of logic and statistics. Concerning the planet, I invite you to look at diverse crash investigation, especially when the pilot is in a tempest, and got contradictory informations. Some crash occurs because the pilot is too proud to believe the copilot, especially if the machine is on his side! I am not an expert in climate. And given the existence of fear selling (war on drugs, perhaps the war on terror too, since the NDAA 12, signs grows in that direction), I am not so much for the prohibition of the free use of petrol, but we have to avoid to intoxicate ourself by negligence of addiction, be it oil, alcohol, or whatever. I believe that by the legalization of all products, with better enforcement on traceability, origin, transparency, warning of the known and plausible secondary effects, education, ... would permit a more naturally regulated self-moderation leading to a big harm reduction. The planet and the individuals, suffer from the lies and propaganda of some special interests who corrupt power to develop unfair competition. What is legal? Guns, oil, car, tobacco, alcohol, those things kill a lot, and none are/were really necessary. What is illegal? Hemp, Tabernanthe iboga, magic mushrooms, LSD, ... Without any argument that they lead to serious problem, when used with moderation and responsibility, following the user guide. Legalize all of those stuff, and tax proportionally to the real troubles. People are not stupid, they will adapt convenably. (That's the fatal error of the bandits, they bet on the stupidity and invest a lot in it, but eventually that is unaffordable, and that is why I am optimistic in the long run, but still sad for all those who already suffer from the consequences of the lies). Bruno 2013/11/13 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 13 Nov 2013, at 10:32, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Bruno. Thanks for your measured style and your gentle responses, as always. But the prevention principle, that has been incorporated to the French Constitution a few years ago, has disastrous consequences. We have only one planet. But we have only one France. The planet is our home to all of us. France is not. I have been very angry that a country put the precaution principle in the constitution. And we have only one life. (That's not obvious, and probably wrong, but not relevant in this issue). And we have many young people, but all and veryone are unique. By the principle of prevention, the slightest hint that some activity can be dangerous for such a long list of things and a lot more, then this activity should be stopped or severely regulated by adequately paid bureaucrats. I am just saying that if we can do something less GLOBALLY irreversible, then we should follow the alternative. Who decide what and how to regulate? Response: the enlightened ones. Not the scientists, but the ones aware of COMP 1p and 3p. Comrades, the future is ours. And meekerdb after a two days course about 1p-3p, could join the avant-garde of the COMP manifesto. for the well being for all the planet! Actually it is very complex, and very simple. I believe that the entire economical and possible ecological crisis is not due to capitalism, nor to democracies freedom, but is due to unscrupulous bandits. The FDA approved genetically modified crops. Good news, why not if it can help us and our children, but the FDA lied about cannabis for many years, so how could I trust them? It is a big problem because the value of money is based on two things: no duplication (that why virtual coin needs cryptography), and trust. As long as cannabis is not made legal, with some apology, how could I trust politicians on *any* subject, beyond the obvious? Also, I am against prohibition of any products, including oil, but prohibition of hemp has lead to making oil quasi obligatory. So the problem is not oil (and fossil fuel), the problem is the unfair competition brought by people having private interest, and the
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
A few moments ago I though: For sure meekerdeb will attack with one of their standard two-line mini-rant snippets that cut and paste everywhere And here it is. Chris at least spend a bit more effort before his final attack with his black helicopters 2013/11/13 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/13/2013 2:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: That is not bad in principle, is what is it and is human nature. But in anomial societies like the modern West, where the small comunities were lost time ago, and the christian faith that created a big sense of comunity for all the West also has been lost, drive many desperate people, fundamentally ateistic or agnostic to coalesce around whatever crazy idea that a leader or group of authorities tell to him. Crazy ideas like freedom of conscience, private enterprise, preserving the environment...instead of those great old theistic ideas like ignorance, faith, piety, and burning heretics. Brent True, secular values can turn a civilization inside out. In post-Christian Europe, entire nations have been plunged into endemic health, skyrocketing education and hopelessly low rates of violent crime. --- Austin Dacey, NY Times 3 Feb 2006 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:07 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 12:49 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. I have no doubt that the fossil fuel industry will try to prevent this. I also agree that the effort put into wars is a horrible misuse of human potential and that great things could be achieved instead. Regarding solar power -- this could be the solution but it's sci-fi at the moment. It's intuitive to look at solar panels and imagine fossil fuels being replaced by this. It's less intuitive to visualise the scale of the problem and the limitations of current technology. We have a world population of about 7 billion now. It has doubled since I was born, in 1976. It continues to grow at more than 1% a year and this is an important part of the equation. Ultimately, the world's energy budget is mostly spent on providing basic necessities to all of these people. Food, heating, health care, schools and so on. I'm not arguing that the resources are correctly distributed, but I am arguing that this is what we mostly use the energy for. A lot of energy. The large chunk of it currently comes from oil, coal and natural gas. So the problems, according to my limited knowledge: current solar panels are based on silicon, which is a scarce resource. The amount of silicon available might not be enough for the total solar panel surface area that we would need to remove our dependency on fossil fuels. In fact, some people are suggesting that we already reached peak silicon. Another other issue is energy efficiency. Mining the raw materials and then transforming them into solar panels takes a certain energy budget. Then these panels last for some years. Then you have to build new ones. The more you remove fossil fuel from the equation, the more you have to rely on the solar panels energy to pay for the energy budget of the next generation. Notice that you also have to store a lot of energy because of seasonal effects, day an night and so on. This takes some sort of capacitor with its own energy budget. I don't think it's clear that all this could become self-sustainable with our current technology. Remember that we still have to provide for the 7 billion humans while paying these energy investments -- and I mean paying in terms of energy, doesn't matter if we're under cut-throat capitalism or a socialist utopia, this economic fact remains. In fact, defeating our dependency on fossil fuels and curbing our CO2 emissions are antagonistic goals. To bootstrap the great solar panel farm we need a lot of energy upfront. The faster you want to do it, the more of this energy has to come from fossil fuels. Then you have two options: increase CO2 emissions or use energy that you would normally use to keep the 7 billion people alive. The faster you do it and the more you rely on the second option, the more human suffering you will cause. We're mot talking about trivial inconveniences either, we're talking about millions and millions dying from starvation, cold and disease. It is tempting to assume that we can go back to a simpler lifestyle and make do with less, but this regards that the current carrying capacity was made possible by the energy budget provided by fossil fuels. Before the energy revolution there were orders of magnitude less human beings on earth, and the complexity of human society was much lower. Organising 7 billion people to live somewhat peacefully on a small planet is no trivial matter. You cannot disregard economic and social effects. We are not talking about some tribe here. A bit of politics, sorry -- part of the reason I am for less government is that I think that this level of complexity vastly outgrown human intelligence. Nobody can manage this, it has to be self-organising to a large degree. And it is. Where there is more central control, there is also more human suffering, case in point: China. They had to resort to enforcing a child birth budget to manage both the energy budget and the complexity. The same principles apply to wind power and all other renewable source we know of. They have horrible efficiency compared to fossil -- efficiency as in energy investments required vs. total yield. A technology
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/13/2013 11:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The catholic and the chihite, This one: http://lordblumiere.deviantart.com/art/Chihite-Angelorum-61177983 Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/13/2013 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: What is legal? Guns, oil, car, tobacco, alcohol, those things kill a lot, and none are/were really necessary. Killing people with guns (or otherwise) is generally illegal. Very few things are necessary to live - but many things are desirable. What is illegal? Hemp, Tabernanthe iboga, magic mushrooms, LSD, ... Without any argument that they lead to serious problem, when used with moderation and responsibility, following the user guide. Legalize all of those stuff, and tax proportionally to the real troubles. People are not stupid, they will adapt convenably. Hmm? How shall we tax proportionately for polluting the atmosphere, the water table? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 3:30 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 12 November 2013 14:04, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of supposed sciences. Yes of course. If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms. The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It acts as an ideological filter rather than as a quality filter in every discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation by interchanging money for ideological ammunition. Hi Liz, So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart from all the others we've tried. I don't quite agree with the comparison. I agree with Churchill but I assume that we will find something better than democracy eventually. This has always been the case: in many moments in History people thought that the perfect system was achieved, and then later we look back and it doesn't look so great. In fact, it is possible that better alternatives to our current system have already been found. I like the idea of selecting a government randomly, like it was done in ancient Athens. Interestingly enough, at that time they seemed to be already aware of the pitfalls of populist manipulation of public opinion. The scientific method seems more robust. Science may go through its dark periods, but sanity can always be recovered later. I would say that the imperfection of science stems from the fact that it is carried by humans, and we are flawed. Some obvious things can be fixed: publish or perish is the wrong incentive. It leads to spamming of the literature. The fact that many important articles are behind paywalls is another major problem. One of its most pernicious effects is that it creates a kind of priesthood that has exclusive access to knowledge and can develop its own bias and self-protection mechanisms. This became obvious with the sad Aaron Schwartz incident, and the violence with which the establishment went after a brilliant young guy who just wanted to free knowledge, eventually driving him to suicide. It is perhaps even more serious that we also don't have access to the raw data used in many studies. The Internet is already showing a glimpse of what can be achieved. Many sacred cows have been falling the last few years. Nutrition and sports is a great example: serious doubts are starting to arise regarding ideas that were unquestionable not long ago: that cholesterol is bad, that salt is bad and that stretching before exercise is good. For example. Even that nicotine is bad in itself. Telmo. You might like to consider that hurricanes and bush fires and rising seas and melting glaciers can't be influenced by political opinion, and it would take a huge effort to generate the evidence coming in from all over the world as part of some vast conspiracy. We're forever hearing about the wildest storms, the highest (and lowest) temperatures on record, the greatest floods and droughts and so on. Is it just possible that the overwhelming mountain of evidence indicates, maybe, something is really going on? (And by the way, supposing there is no global warming and we go ahead and develop sustainable power sources for no reason whatsoever before the oil runs out - won't that just be awful?) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Hi Telmo There maye have been a hint of sarcasm in my comment, to be honest. I don't think we will better the scientific method, although we may be able to improve how we implement it, as it were - the human part of the equation. But I'm glad I stimulated your interesting comments, anyway! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
2013/11/12 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/11/2013 5:04 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of supposed sciences. If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms. Because they had already seen the process being manipulated by the well funded Deniers and their political allies. This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was perverted by the deniers? I have no option but to think that you believe en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming apocalypse. And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me. The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It acts as an ideological filter rather than as a quality filter in every discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation by interchanging money for ideological ammunition. Yes, some scientists might be biased - so we should assumed you deniers have the truth on the basis of no evidence except that in the past some scientists have been biased. You have your WW apocalypse, to believe in. But because you will be sooner or later ridiculed by reality, I recommend you to search for a replacement.. What about the end of the ozone layer? no..that has been in fashion time ago but it gains momentum every winter. What about the peak oil? Nah, fracking ended it,although our ecoalarmist comrades are doing whatever they can to stop this menace against our beloved apocalypse. I recommend you to study the chemtrails. They are the true menace. End of transmission from Mars. bip bip Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
2013/11/12 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 12 November 2013 14:04, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of supposed sciences. Yes of course. If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms. The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It acts as an ideological filter rather than as a quality filter in every discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation by interchanging money for ideological ammunition. So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart from all the others we've tried. You might like to consider that hurricanes and bush fires and rising seas and melting glaciers can't be influenced by political opinion, and it would take a huge effort to generate the evidence coming in from all over the world as part of some vast conspiracy. We're forever hearing about the wildest storms, the highest (and lowest) temperatures on record, the greatest floods and droughts and so on. Is it just possible that the overwhelming mountain of evidence indicates, maybe, something is really going on? (And by the way, supposing there is no global warming and we go ahead and develop sustainable power sources for no reason whatsoever before the oil runs out - won't that just be awful?) You better read the mails of the two climategate scandal and conform a better opinion about the matter than with the bush fires and hurricanes that the sanitary towell sellers tell you in your dumb box. You can see how a conspiracy of interests push truth away and replace it with half truths. That is happening since the human learn to talk and socialize. When the whole science is perverted because all the laboratories are a single virtual laboratory, all the model simulations talk together to to adjust their parameters to reach the same conclussions (up to the decimal level) . When the measures of tree growth is made by hungry russians that are ansious to get his money and depend on western scientists that need their next year grant from politicians that want to see reasons for giving them millions of dollars, Then there is nothing that may resemble the scientific method. It is just bare humans doing whathever they can for their primary concerns: their famillies, their personal careers and their ambitions as ever in History. But in some other cases is even more: international crime -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 10:36 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Telmo There maye have been a hint of sarcasm in my comment, to be honest. I suspected as much, but wanted to babble anyway :) I don't think we will better the scientific method, although we may be able to improve how we implement it, as it were - the human part of the equation. But I'm glad I stimulated your interesting comments, anyway! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart from all the others we've tried. Following your analogy. when the the media, and the politicians of majority parties form a coalition to defend their own interests, then you can not have access to the information. You are governed by a collection of liars and simulators. There is no democracy. When the science and their media is dominated by a single coalition united in the mutual interest to increase their budget and they have the communication means of internet to coordinate in this effort, then there is no science. I propose the separation of science and state. 2013/11/12 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com 2013/11/12 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 12 November 2013 14:04, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of supposed sciences. Yes of course. If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms. The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It acts as an ideological filter rather than as a quality filter in every discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation by interchanging money for ideological ammunition. So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart from all the others we've tried. You might like to consider that hurricanes and bush fires and rising seas and melting glaciers can't be influenced by political opinion, and it would take a huge effort to generate the evidence coming in from all over the world as part of some vast conspiracy. We're forever hearing about the wildest storms, the highest (and lowest) temperatures on record, the greatest floods and droughts and so on. Is it just possible that the overwhelming mountain of evidence indicates, maybe, something is really going on? (And by the way, supposing there is no global warming and we go ahead and develop sustainable power sources for no reason whatsoever before the oil runs out - won't that just be awful?) You better read the mails of the two climategate scandal and conform a better opinion about the matter than with the bush fires and hurricanes that the sanitary towell sellers tell you in your dumb box. You can see how a conspiracy of interests push truth away and replace it with half truths. That is happening since the human learn to talk and socialize. When the whole science is perverted because all the laboratories are a single virtual laboratory, all the model simulations talk together to to adjust their parameters to reach the same conclussions (up to the decimal level) . When the measures of tree growth is made by hungry russians that are ansious to get his money and depend on western scientists that need their next year grant from politicians that want to see reasons for giving them millions of dollars, Then there is nothing that may resemble the scientific method. It is just bare humans doing whathever they can for their primary concerns: their famillies, their personal careers and their ambitions as ever in History. But in some other cases is even more: international crime -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame no blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that anything of the sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally there is a whole range of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some humans have transcended it all… they say Buddha did, but the rest of us to one degree or another suffer from our own blind failings. It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with readymade answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in a field survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down response. Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds. Often, especially in situations, such as can develop on internet discussion groups, primitive instincts take over – I have seen it, so have you, so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral modes to the fore. Re-learning the inner being living inside the mind is rather much a lifelong pursuit – for after all we are a moving target, and if we do not keep a certain vigilance we all risk falling into habitual modes of mind. You are right. I think that biological evolution oscillates all the time between the selfishness (the self and his/her passions) and cooperation (long term sensible and reasonable action). This comes from the tension between the 1p and the 3p (Bp p and Bp). It is very complex, and related to the paradox of theology: If everything is solved, we can as well kill ourself. There is no simple solution, and more than one life is not enough. The correct contemplation-level is hard to grasp. But Buddha got it ... allegedly. Bruno And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend slides over a closed sports magazine. Have a look at this article in the middle, here. Inside the magazine is a rather thick envelope. -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure. It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been lied. It is very often hard to delineate them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: I am emphasizing having governments print out (Keynes style) absolutely, colossal, amounts of cash, as a reward for coming up with excellent disease treatments and cures, human solar system tours, and clean energy solution, environmental remediation. If the banks won't fund researchers, then private equity will, if private equity won't then a million contributors-open source-will, provided they get a cut of the reward offered by a government prize. I wouldn't be shocked if you, Professor, Marchal, might summon up 25 ECU's in exchange for receiving 3000 ECU's or Golden Yuans, in payment, 5 years later. Only if this reflects some honest contracts. Honesty is not just moral, it is something which elevates a lot the real value of money. It generates trust. Be honest. If you don't try to be honest for the calm of your conscience, do it for the wealth of your children. Today big corporations are based on lies. That's
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
To spudboy: Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you think that your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong. What you must say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher passions, for example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth. But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional, because the ultimate arbiter of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain if you like) is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are unavoidably passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of the mind, or whathever you may call it, in the light of experience, philosophy or evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is passional. Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us, and ours away from entropic obliteration, 2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [ mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com ] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame no blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that anything of the sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally there is a whole range of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some humans have transcended it all… they say Buddha did, but the rest of us to one degree or another suffer from our own blind failings. It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with readymade answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in a field survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down response. Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds. Often, especially in situations, such as can develop on internet discussion groups, primitive instincts take over – I have seen it, so have you, so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral modes to the fore. Re-learning the inner being living inside the mind is rather much a lifelong pursuit – for after all we are a moving target, and if we do not keep a certain vigilance we all risk falling into habitual modes of mind. You are right. I think that biological evolution oscillates all the time between the selfishness (the self and his/her passions) and cooperation (long term sensible and reasonable action). This comes from the tension between the 1p and the 3p (Bp p and Bp). It is very complex, and related to the paradox of theology: If everything is solved, we can as well kill ourself. There is no simple solution, and more than one life is not enough. The correct contemplation-level is hard to grasp. But Buddha got it ... allegedly. Bruno And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend slides over a closed sports magazine. Have a look at this article in the middle, here. Inside the magazine is a rather thick envelope. -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure. It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been lied. It is very often hard to delineate them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: I am emphasizing having
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:54, Alberto G. Corona wrote: So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart from all the others we've tried. Following your analogy. when the the media, and the politicians of majority parties form a coalition to defend their own interests, then you can not have access to the information. You are governed by a collection of liars and simulators. There is no democracy. When the science and their media is dominated by a single coalition united in the mutual interest to increase their budget and they have the communication means of internet to coordinate in this effort, then there is no science. I propose the separation of science and state. Yes. And that is what is done normally in a democracy. When science is not separated from politics, you get pseudo-science at the top. In fact you get a religious state. Politicians can consult experts, but have to be careful not taking them too much seriously. Now, about climate, my opinion, since always, is that we have accessed to only one planet, at least for some time, and so we must avoid any irreversible actions *when* possible. Henry Ford in the early 1900 explained already that by using hemp in place of steel and oil to make car, we would allow a sustainable economy, while by using oil, we create a larger and larger imbalance. Given the Hemp alternative, we should not have even begun to use oil, or in a more reasonable proportion, and should have continue with Hemp, as we have done the preceding centuries. Of course the oil barons thought differently, and invented the myth that Hemp (cannabis) is a dangerous plant. A myth which has been debunked since the start. Brent advocates democracy, and I go with him on this. But if their is a climate change, it might be due to the failure of democracy to prevent big corporatist lies. Bruno The planet saver crusade evoke in my mind the country savers of the past that said the same to save their country, and in the process, gain power and rob the people. Save the planet from your preferred dirt paranoia with your own money, Not mine. I have my own dirt to attend. You ignore basic facts of production on biocombustibles and biomaterials. The production of biocombustibles instead of food has been proved that lead to disaster. The obsessed with the idea that there are only a limited X for Y . Sooner or later reach their logical conclussion: some Y must be made redundant. and these Y are people. And the fact is that there are plenty of energy and materials everywhere. The only lacking resource is the inteligence and ingenuity of more people to learn to use them. 2013/11/12 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com 2013/11/12 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 12 November 2013 14:04, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of supposed sciences. Yes of course. If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms. The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It acts as an ideological filter rather than as a quality filter in every discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation by interchanging money for ideological ammunition. So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart from all the others we've tried. You might like to consider that hurricanes and bush fires and rising seas and melting glaciers can't be influenced by political opinion, and it would take a huge effort to generate the evidence coming in from all over the world as part of some vast conspiracy. We're forever hearing about the wildest storms, the highest (and lowest) temperatures on record, the greatest floods and droughts and so on. Is it just possible that the overwhelming mountain of evidence indicates, maybe, something is really going on? (And by the way, supposing there is no global warming and we go ahead and develop sustainable power sources for no reason whatsoever before the oil runs out - won't that just be awful?) You better read the mails of the two climategate scandal and conform a better
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
I agree and understand, Alberto, with your elegy. Mitch -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World To spudboy: Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you think that your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong. What you must say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher passions, for example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth. But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional, because the ultimate arbiter of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain if you like) is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are unavoidably passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of the mind, or whathever you may call it, in the light of experience, philosophy or evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is passional. Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us, and ours away from entropic obliteration, 2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame no blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that anything of the sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally there is a whole range of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some humans have transcended it all… they say Buddha did, but the rest of us to one degree or another suffer from our own blind failings. It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with readymade answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in a field survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down response. Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds. Often, especially in situations, such as can develop on internet discussion groups, primitive instincts take over – I have seen it, so have you, so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral modes to the fore. Re-learning the inner being living inside the mind is rather much a lifelong pursuit – for after all we are a moving target, and if we do not keep a certain vigilance we all risk falling into habitual modes of mind. You are right. I think that biological evolution oscillates all the time between the selfishness (the self and his/her passions) and cooperation (long term sensible and reasonable action). This comes from the tension between the 1p and the 3p (Bp p and Bp). It is very complex, and related to the paradox of theology: If everything is solved, we can as well kill ourself. There is no simple solution, and more than one life is not enough. The correct contemplation-level is hard to grasp. But Buddha got it ... allegedly. Bruno And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend slides over a closed sports magazine. Have a look at this article in the middle, here. Inside the magazine is a rather thick envelope. -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure. It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been lied. It is very often hard to delineate them. Bruno -Original
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
Climategate a Fox News generated tempest in a teacup. Much ado about stupid human behavior in order to keep the focus off of the salient facts that global mean temperatures have been rising (within the backdrop of natural weather cycles, such as the El Nino oscillation); that global mean sea levels have been rising; that both Antarctica and Greenland have been losing ice mass balance, as established by satellite gravinometric measurements and independently by a European radar study of these ice masses. Glaciers are disappearing at breakneck speed all over the world – Glacier National Park (near where I live will soon have no more glaciers)! Focus instead on the petty sniping emails of some bureaucrats – clearly a much more important angle…. Only in the distorted universe of faux news. There are literally trillions of dollars of future evaluations at stake in this and the fossil carbon barons of the world will do everything in their power to preserve this future evaluation, because their current wealth is tied to what the market place thinks these coal, oil, gas (and oil-like deposits of tar etc.) reserves will be worth. Any serious global shift off of burning carbon fuels in order to mitigate global warming would slash the value of these reserves and hence the current assets of these billionaires. This is far more financial motive than the petty bureaucratic maneuvering faux news has presented as the driving motive to manufacture this scary story of global warming – go to sleep take the blue pill, and above all keep burning coal…. Its just those crazed warmists… or so the often repeated denier meme goes. Besides isn’t climategate getting a little long on the tooth. Can’t you come up with some more recent scandal – some nefarious example of evil warmists inventing this scary movie in order to establish a totalitarian new world order and force everyone into the chains of communism Watch out for those black helicopters they are out to get you. From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:56 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World 2013/11/12 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/11/2013 5:04 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of supposed sciences. If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms. Because they had already seen the process being manipulated by the well funded Deniers and their political allies. This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was perverted by the deniers? I have no option but to think that you believe en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming apocalypse. And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me. The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It acts as an ideological filter rather than as a quality filter in every discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation by interchanging money for ideological ammunition. Yes, some scientists might be biased - so we should assumed you deniers have the truth on the basis of no evidence except that in the past some scientists have been biased. You have your WW apocalypse, to believe in. But because you will be sooner or later ridiculed by reality, I recommend you to search for a replacement.. What about the end of the ozone layer? no..that has been in fashion time ago but it gains momentum every winter. What about the peak oil? Nah, fracking ended it,although our ecoalarmist comrades are doing whatever they can to stop this menace against our beloved apocalypse. I recommend you to study the chemtrails. They are the true menace. End of transmission from Mars. bip bip Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/12/2013 4:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 Nov 2013, at 11:54, Alberto G. Corona wrote: So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart from all the others we've tried. Following your analogy. when the the media, and the politicians of majority parties form a coalition to defend their own interests, then you can not have access to the information. You are governed by a collection of liars and simulators. There is no democracy. When the science and their media is dominated by a single coalition united in the mutual interest to increase their budget and they have the communication means of internet to coordinate in this effort, then there is no science. I propose the separation of science and state. Yes. And that is what is done normally in a democracy. When science is not separated from politics, you get pseudo-science at the top. In fact you get a religious state. Politicians can consult experts, but have to be careful not taking them too much seriously. Now, about climate, my opinion, since always, is that we have accessed to only one planet, at least for some time, and so we must avoid any irreversible actions *when* possible. Henry Ford in the early 1900 explained already that by using hemp in place of steel and oil to make car, Only the body panels were of a plastic made from plants, the chassis and engine were steel and iron: The frame, made of tubular steel, had 14 plastic panels attached to it. The car weighed 2000 lbs., 1000 lbs. lighter than a steel car. The exact ingredients of the plastic panels are unknown because no record of the formula exists today. One article claims that they were made from a chemical formula that, among many other ingredients, included soybeans, wheat, hemp, flax and ramie; while the man who was instrumental in creating the car, Lowell E. Overly, claims it was ...soybean fiber in a phenolic resin with formaldehyde used in the impregnation (Davis, 51). we would allow a sustainable economy, while by using oil, we create a larger and larger imbalance. Given the Hemp alternative, we should not have even begun to use oil, or in a more reasonable proportion, and should have continue with Hemp, as we have done the preceding centuries. Of course the oil barons thought differently, and invented the myth that Hemp (cannabis) is a dangerous plant. A myth which has been debunked since the start. Brent advocates democracy, and I go with him on this. But if their is a climate change, it might be due to the failure of democracy to prevent big corporatist lies. Or the propensity of humans to live well today no matter what problems that may entail a generation or two in the future. That's why the fossil fuel industry doesn't have to convince anyone that global warming isn't happening, they just have to create some doubt. And that's easy against scientists because scientists always doubt their own theories. As Albert says, knowledge doesn't produce action. To get large scale cooperative action is a political process. It requires values, passions...like concern for ones grandchildren. If you say science must be separate from politics - how do propose that scientific knowledge about a problem, motivate action? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
You said it: the calentological comunity, acting as a single entity, denied their data. to scientists with different points of view. That is not science. that is a sectarian organization that, because are working with public funding are breaking not only the law and the decency, but the last bit of legitimacy that may made them credible. In doing so, they stopped the scientific inquiry beyond their own circle. You choose to believe what that sect of propagandists are claiming. You have all the right to spend your time and to talk about it. I´m in favour of the freedom of religion. But that is not Science. 2013/11/12 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/12/2013 2:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: When the science and their media is dominated by a single coalition united in the mutual interest to increase their budget and they have the communication means of internet to coordinate in this effort, then there is no science. Albert doesn't bother to read the scientific literature. If he did he would see that every idea is repeatedly challenged - but with the aim of resolving questions, not just producing doubt. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/12/2013 11:53 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: You said it: the calentological comunity, acting as a single entity, denied their data. to scientists with different points of view. But they didn't. They only discussed it and noted that some of the data didn't belong to them but had been shared with them by other organizations that colllected it. All of their data was, and is, available, as is all the source code of the general circulation models used for predicition. For someone who thinks they know the difference between science and religion, it is interesting that you never make an argument based on science. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Thus said, because there are eternal laws, there are eternal truths. For the materialists, Konrad Lorenz said something extraordinarily profound that connect two universes of knowledge: The Kantian apriori of knowledge have been inserted in our brain/mind/soul by evolution in the form of intuitions, processing of the senses and other instinctive elements without which not only knowledge but existence would be impossible. They are US in a literal sense. That means that the eternal truths are around us, but primarily also in ourselves, in this instinctive knowledge gained trough evolution, about ourselves, about others and about the world. It includes from the very basic: the perception of space and time, that Roger talk about from time to time, to the commons sense to the the highest truths about what is good and what is bad. 2013/11/12 spudboy...@aol.com I agree and understand, Alberto, with your elegy. Mitch -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World To spudboy: Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you think that your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong. What you must say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher passions, for example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth. But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional, because the ultimate arbiter of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain if you like) is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are unavoidably passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of the mind, or whathever you may call it, in the light of experience, philosophy or evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is passional. Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us, and ours away from entropic obliteration, 2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [ mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.comeverything-list@googlegroups.com ] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame no blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that anything of the sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally there is a whole range of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some humans have transcended it all… they say Buddha did, but the rest of us to one degree or another suffer from our own blind failings. It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with readymade answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in a field survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down response. Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds. Often, especially in situations, such as can develop on internet discussion groups, primitive instincts take over – I have seen it, so have you, so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral modes to the fore. Re-learning the inner being living inside the mind is rather much a lifelong pursuit – for after all we are a moving target, and if we do not keep a certain vigilance we all risk falling into habitual modes of mind. You are right. I think that biological evolution oscillates all the time between the selfishness (the self and his/her passions) and cooperation (long term sensible and reasonable action). This comes from the tension between the 1p and the 3p (Bp p and Bp). It is very complex, and related to the paradox of theology: If everything is solved, we can as well kill ourself. There is no simple solution, and more than one life is not enough. The correct contemplation-level is hard to grasp. But Buddha got it ... allegedly. Bruno And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend slides over a closed sports
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
So you say that because the data was finally available against their will, they are good scientists that welcome the challenges and the scientific method? : Their practices tell absolutely the contrary. And the fact that their data leaked out is not in their merit, in the contrary. All what you mention of your past mail above is a self-confession that they are acting as a sect, not as scientists. including their conspirationism the we-against-the-bad-boys-outside, se sylencing of the exceptics inside, the common interest and all the marks of a corrupt collusion as never in history. But this is nothing but a little aspect of all the Global Warming scam. But I will not waste my time with this shit. I will laugh at you and will buy your beach houses that you for sure will shell for a bargain. Or not? 2013/11/12 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/12/2013 11:53 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: You said it: the calentological comunity, acting as a single entity, denied their data. to scientists with different points of view. But they didn't. They only discussed it and noted that some of the data didn't belong to them but had been shared with them by other organizations that colllected it. All of their data was, and is, available, as is all the source code of the general circulation models used for predicition. For someone who thinks they know the difference between science and religion, it is interesting that you never make an argument based on science. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/12/2013 12:30 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: So you say that because the data was finally available against their will, they are good scientists that welcome the challenges and the scientific method? They were not compelled, they agreed to provide the data after discussing whether there was an ethical way to deny it. : Their practices tell absolutely the contrary. And the fact that their data leaked out is not in their merit, in the contrary. All what you mention of your past mail above is a self-confession that they are acting as a sect, not as scientists. including their conspirationism the we-against-the-bad-boys-outside, se sylencing of the exceptics inside, the common interest and all the marks of a corrupt collusion as never in history. As human beings they were reluctant to provide hard earned data to those who had proved to mere critics - like you - with no interest but to spread doubt. But this is nothing but a little aspect of all the Global Warming scam. But I will not waste my time with this shit. Good that will save my time replying to shit. I will laugh at you and will buy your beach houses that you for sure will shell for a bargain. Or not? My house is 120' above a coastal plain. It will be a beach house if FUD prevails. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 13 November 2013 05:19, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: And the fact is that there are plenty of energy and materials everywhere. The only lacking resource is the inteligence and ingenuity of more people to learn to use them. That at least you have got right. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 13 November 2013 06:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I knew you didn't live on this planet or care for it's future. Quite clearly - I have my own dirt to attend to ignores the existence of the commons we all share in. If Alberto wants to move to Mars then fine, he is no longer invested in the Earth's environment. But until then he is, and (like the fossil fuel industry) is apparently unwilling to pay the full price of living here. The oil industry wants a free lunch with no comeback from the hidden costs of their wealth-generation (now becoming less and less hidden) - they act as though they have no idea of what economics actually means, as though that they don't realise the price you don't pay now is accumulating somewhere else and has to be paid in the end. (Possibly, if they continue to ignore reality for long enough, with our children's lives.) Also, to claim that the IPCC etc can't be trusted because it's all just scientists looking after themselves while believing that the propaganda from the oil industry ISN'T ... is (to put it kindly) disingenuous. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
As human beings they were reluctant to provide hard earned data to those who had proved to mere critics - like you - with no interest but to spread doubt. Can ever have been a more clear confession of sectarianism ? Doubt about what? about what yours affirm that is truth and must be taken as face value? Is that the new conception of science and the one that Popper et al teach to me is ourdated? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Brent, try cruising Wikipedia. I don't know of any biologist or physician, that didn't approve of this nonsense. I am not aware of anyone speaking out authoritatively, as a scientist that opposed eugenics. Maybe you can, but I don't recall anyone on the hero side. Whether is was pro-birth control medical advocates, or public health administrators, I think nobody uttered a peep, anywhere until maybe the 1950's? -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:15 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/11/2013 10:13 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ah, but Brents' point is that smoking and cancer are proven fact. However, at the time, Troifim Lysenko's views on biology were proven. ?? To nobody outside the Soviet Union - and only to a few there. So were the Eugenicists that lead directly to Dachau. That's like saying Mendel led directly to Dachau - for veryexpansive meanings of directly. Almost 100% concurred (physicians, anthropologists, geneticists, biologists) on this fact. And your source for this is? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/12/2013 1:36 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, try cruising Wikipedia. I don't know of any biologist or physician, that didn't approve of this nonsense. I am not aware of anyone speaking out authoritatively, as a scientist that opposed eugenics. Maybe you can, but I don't recall anyone on the hero side. Whether is was pro-birth control medical advocates, or public health administrators, I think nobody uttered a peep, anywhere until maybe the 1950's? A peep against propagating good genetics or a peep against Dachau. Those are very different things and are only directly linked in a very expansive meaning of directly. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Indeed. I look at things a bit different, perhaps. then yourself. I see it, us, as being set against obliteration versus existence. Mitch -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 3:12 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Thus said, because there are eternal laws, there are eternal truths. For the materialists, Konrad Lorenz said something extraordinarily profound that connect two universes of knowledge: The Kantian apriori of knowledge have been inserted in our brain/mind/soul by evolution in the form of intuitions, processing of the senses and other instinctive elements without which not only knowledge but existence would be impossible. They are US in a literal sense. That means that the eternal truths are around us, but primarily also in ourselves, in this instinctive knowledge gained trough evolution, about ourselves, about others and about the world. It includes from the very basic: the perception of space and time, that Roger talk about from time to time, to the commons sense to the the highest truths about what is good and what is bad. 2013/11/12 spudboy...@aol.com I agree and understand, Alberto, with your elegy. Mitch -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:42 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World To spudboy: Reason alone does`n move to anything, not even to knowledge. If you think that your passions are bad for looking for the truth, you are wrong. What you must say is that some passions are an obstacle for other higher passions, for example the passion of using the reason to reach the truth. But truth is ever constitutionally instrumental, it is ever passional, because the ultimate arbiter of truth in the most deep of our mind (brain if you like) is a switch that is activated by different stimulus that are unavoidably passional, because that is in our own nature, architecture of the mind, or whathever you may call it, in the light of experience, philosophy or evolutionary science, the ultimate legitimizer of truth is passional. Or in physico-mathematical terms, truth is whathever that maintain us, and ours away from entropic obliteration, 2013/11/12 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 12 Nov 2013, at 06:23, Chris de Morsella wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. Good point… but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us – if we are honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame no blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that anything of the sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally there is a whole range of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some humans have transcended it all… they say Buddha did, but the rest of us to one degree or another suffer from our own blind failings. It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with readymade answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in a field survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down response. Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds. Often, especially in situations, such as can develop on internet discussion groups, primitive instincts take over – I have seen it, so have you, so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral modes to the fore. Re-learning the inner being living inside the mind is rather much a lifelong pursuit – for after all we are a moving target, and if we do not keep a certain vigilance we all risk falling into habitual modes of mind. You are right. I think that biological evolution oscillates all the time between the selfishness (the self and his/her passions) and cooperation (long term sensible and reasonable action). This comes from the tension between the 1p and the 3p (Bp p and Bp). It is very complex, and related to the paradox of theology: If everything is solved, we can as well kill ourself. There is no simple solution, and more than one life is not enough. The correct contemplation-level is hard to grasp
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Probably both, if my reading of history books about this time. Which I am using as a reminder that we need to be cautious about how to react to this, AGW might be completely true, but I am worried that world socialists, and a cadre of billionaire supporters want this for other reasons then to save the Earth. Call it paranoia, but many of these want wealth transference from the USA, Australia, Canada and Europe to the 3rd world. The billionaires can accrue power for money, in dealing with these Marxists. And, no its not a great plot, but a commonality of interests, tween governments, parties and billionaires. That's my best guess, but it doesn't exclude our responsibility in trying to save ourselves from AGW. Lastly, if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11/12/2013 1:36 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, trycruising Wikipedia. I don't know of any biologist or physician,that didn't approve of this nonsense. I am not aware of anyonespeaking out authoritatively, as a scientist that opposed eugenics. Maybe you can, but I don't recall anyone on the heroside. Whether is was pro-birth control medical advocates, orpublic health administrators, I think nobody uttered a peep,anywhere until maybe the 1950's? A peep against propagating good genetics or a peep against Dachau. Those are very different things and are only directly linked in a very expansive meaning of directly. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/12/2013 3:49 PM, LizR wrote: On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com mailto:spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. Look at David MacKay's book Without Hot Air, which is free online, to see an estimate of the scope of the effort required. It's a lot, but as you say it's no more than some other big efforts. The problem is that first we need to start. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
2013/11/13 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 13 November 2013 10:55, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: if you want us to give up the bad, dirty, power, then please provide a clean, affordable, abundant substitute. Faster, please. The Sun, of course. Produces millions of times more power than we need. Trouble is the fossil fuel industry doesn't want us to use it. Given the sort of effort ut into that that has been put into the space race or warfare we'd have this sorted by next week. And the hunger of the world in a week-end. Brownies for desert -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 12 November 2013 22:56, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was perverted by the deniers? I have no option but to think that you believe en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming apocalypse. And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me. Or you could look at TV advertising, with big expensive ads for cars, or at the paper with pull out sections which are trying to sell cars, or you could look at the TV news, which despite reporting virtually a new climate related disaster every week now, hardly ever mentions that it might be linked to global warming (unless it's to point out that no single storn can be directly linked to global warming - the only mention I've heard recently). Now add up how many people read science magazines and how many watch car adverts on TV. Now maybe you can see who is in charge of shaping our opinions. When car ads are banned, as cigarette ads are, there may be some tiny amount of truth in what you say. (Although by the time *that* happens, Auckland will probably be underwater.) But until then, the deniers are firmly in control. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
As I see it, the problem is connecting atmospheric disaster events to global warming. I have been looking for such a connection in the scientific literature and even in AGW blogs w/o success. Before going into physics I was an undergraduate student of mechanical engineering. In our fluid dynamic classes we learned that if you put more energy into a turbulent system, such as the atmosphere, then the turbulent fluctuations (read storms) vastly out pace the average increase of energy (read global temp). I recall some expressions of the relationship of fluctuations to averages, but that was in the 1950s. If any of you have read of such a relationship to explain the increased intensity of storms please let me know (with both barrels) and provide a link if possible. Richard On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 10:25 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 12 November 2013 22:56, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: This is laughable. Not a SINGLE article against human warming was publised in the main scientific magazines and you said that the process was perverted by the deniers? I have no option but to think that you believe en evil deamons with telepathic powers that try to hide your coming apocalypse. And you are right. I´m one of them. This night, by black magic, I will appear in your dreams and I will torment you. Careful whit me. Or you could look at TV advertising, with big expensive ads for cars, or at the paper with pull out sections which are trying to sell cars, or you could look at the TV news, which despite reporting virtually a new climate related disaster every week now, hardly ever mentions that it might be linked to global warming (unless it's to point out that no single storn can be directly linked to global warming - the only mention I've heard recently). Now add up how many people read science magazines and how many watch car adverts on TV. Now maybe you can see who is in charge of shaping our opinions. When car ads are banned, as cigarette ads are, there may be some tiny amount of truth in what you say. (Although by the time *that* happens, Auckland will probably be underwater.) But until then, the deniers are firmly in control. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 10 Nov 2013, at 22:06, John Mikes wrote: Bruno and Brent: Who are you to T E L L society what it needs? I am only trying to tell society what I need, and what I think my children, my students, my friends, and all people I care about can need. (BTW: I agree perfectly with your position). I had discussions on other lists in aspects of religion and gun- control and received similar offensive repercussions. No universal machine can tell any other universal machine how to think and what to aim at. I absolutely agree with you. But all universal machine have the right, for that very reason, to criticize and vote against those machines who want to impose their mode of thinking. Voting is a lying hoax, democracy is nonetxistent. A handful people of goodwill will not change the malicious crowd. When I abhor shooting to kill people, it does not prove wrong those crazies who like to do it - just marks a difference of opinions. TELLING society what it needs is fascism, socialism, or religion. OK. but the idea is not killing is bad. The idea is killing me or my children is bad, and so I might vote for someone who will help (or promise to help) to minimize the probability of that happening. Bruno Be careful with your words: they are mostly meaningless substitutes. John M. On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 11:50 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:25, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 12:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: There is nothing wrong being rich, unless the money is stolen money, and that's the case today. There's nothing morally wrong with being rich, but it creates an ethical problem. Being much wealthier than others bestows a lot of power. If there is no effective government (like parts of Somalia) then the rich hire a personal army to protect their property. Where there is government, the police protect their property and the rich attempt to control the government through propaganda and buying influence. So long as the rich are not so rich as to live in a different 'world' than the middle class and they are relatively diverse this works OK. But the system seems to be unstable in that the rich can and do use their wealth and power to get more wealth and power - and not necessarily productively. So those who inherit wealth tend to gain even more wealth. Society needs to do something to stabilize the system and prevent the increasing concentration of wealth. I completely agree. The problem is that with money, you can produce more money in two ways, honestly or dishonestly Bruno, before I touch the basics - could you explain what you would consider to produce M O R E money HONESTLY? Same question to Brent's text above: that the rich can and do use their wealth and power to get more wealth and power - and not necessarily productively. I don't see a 'productive' way how 'the rich' get more wealth and power by using their wealth and power. It is exploitation, political scam, bribery, terrorism, etc. - all in the framework of accepted morals of the system (either capitalist, or fascist). I recall some basics (I am no 'Socialist') from Marx: NOBODY owns Nature so any natural products (mining, farming, or other) are valued 'honestly' as recompensation for the efforts invested into the natural process for getting money - honestly - productively, without exploitation. Does any mine-owner work on his product? Does any Farming conglomerated stockholder work honestly on the crop? I do not advocate the CEO to sweep the floor: there is tasks' - organization in which everyone has a role to perform, but are the roles proportionately paid for? Mao tried to switch 'roles' temporarily - he failed. Lenin realized that such just distribution is impossible in today's society and postulated FIRST the development of som COMMUINST MAN who lives up to such 'just distribution' of benefits - surely realizing the impossibility of such development. All other (Socialist?) countries suffered from the same malaise as the (democraticly?) capitalistic ones: the leadership and its power usurped wealth, acquired MONEY and POWER on the back of the 'not so fortunate' exploited majority. Alas, I have no solution to remedy the situation. Re-hire Dr. Guillotine is unrealistic. JM On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:25, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 12:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: There is nothing wrong being rich, unless the money is stolen money, and that's the case today. There's nothing morally wrong with being rich, but it creates an ethical problem. Being much wealthier than others bestows a lot of power. If there is no effective government (like parts of Somalia) then the rich hire a personal army to protect their property. Where there is government, the police protect their property and the rich
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure. It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been lied. It is very often hard to delineate them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: I am emphasizing having governments print out (Keynes style) absolutely, colossal, amounts of cash, as a reward for coming up with excellent disease treatments and cures, human solar system tours, and clean energy solution, environmental remediation. If the banks won't fund researchers, then private equity will, if private equity won't then a million contributors-open source-will, provided they get a cut of the reward offered by a government prize. I wouldn't be shocked if you, Professor, Marchal, might summon up 25 ECU's in exchange for receiving 3000 ECU's or Golden Yuans, in payment, 5 years later. Only if this reflects some honest contracts. Honesty is not just moral, it is something which elevates a lot the real value of money. It generates trust. Be honest. If you don't try to be honest for the calm of your conscience, do it for the wealth of your children. Today big corporations are based on lies. That's the problem. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 10 Nov 2013, at 08:42, LizR wrote: On 10 November 2013 18:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 6:13 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Let me ask you Jesse do you suggest any substitute that we can turn to for transforming world civilization to clean power? The only significant thing I can think of, would be hiring Craig Venter to produce some methane or hydrogen maker, that can, if necessary convert sea water to fuel. You seem ignorant that converting sea water to fuel takes more energy than you can get from burning the fuel (hydrogen). So you still need a clean energy source to do the conversion. This would be a possible way of creating fuel for easy transport. One of the big points about petrol is that it's very transportable. The best solution to the world's energy problems imho would be to find a method of extracting carbon dioxide from the air and converting it plus water into petrol using solar power. Carbon- neutral petrol and we don't have to rejig all our existing transport systems. If we can extract more carbon than we use we might even cool the earth too. Is that not what the plants are doing, all the time? Can we do better, I mean today? Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 10 Nov 2013, at 05:52, meekerdb wrote: 3. What do you recommend if the US refuses to comply? ?? You mean the U.S. government refuses to act in the best interests of it's citizens: Vote them out. We could have meant that the US government fake to comply. Once a government lie, and the press is no more free, you might miss the data to vote them out. In the health politics, many governments refuse to act in the interests of its citizens, since a long time, but very few citizens realize this, because they are kept uninformed. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11 November 2013 21:07, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 10 Nov 2013, at 08:42, LizR wrote: On 10 November 2013 18:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 6:13 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Let me ask you Jesse do you suggest any substitute that we can turn to for transforming world civilization to clean power? The only significant thing I can think of, would be hiring Craig Venter to produce some methane or hydrogen maker, that can, if necessary convert sea water to fuel. You seem ignorant that converting sea water to fuel takes more energy than you can get from burning the fuel (hydrogen). So you still need a clean energy source to do the conversion. This would be a possible way of creating fuel for easy transport. One of the big points about petrol is that it's very transportable. The best solution to the world's energy problems imho would be to find a method of extracting carbon dioxide from the air and converting it plus water into petrol using solar power. Carbon-neutral petrol and we don't have to rejig all our existing transport systems. If we can extract more carbon than we use we might even cool the earth too. Is that not what the plants are doing, all the time? Yes, but unfortunately the whole process takes millions of years. Can we do better, I mean today? Not at carbon sequestration, but to achieve a reduction in CO2 by growing plants we would have to stop using cars and power plants and so on. The reason I gave the above suggestion is that if we can do it, it would enable us to be carbon neutral without giving up our civilisation to do so. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
No. In this case I´m not insulting, just gently defending myself, since I´m a Warmism infidel, I used to be a dangerous smoker , so may I have to pay for it with my life if the next wave of human rights advocates take over. And, I have to confess, I fart from time to time and no doubt this will be severely punished, as a noisy and smelly violation of Human Rights, by the state and the International institutions in a few years. 2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com When somebody doesn’t agree with you, do you then start insulting them? *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona *Sent:* Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:36 PM *To:* everything-list *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World I think that, since the forces of progress and human dignity lost Siberia as the location for stablishing psychiatrics to reconduct deviated enemies of the People, The North and South poles can well be used to make global warming negationist to reconsider is position against Humanity and human rights. Don´t you think so, comrade Meekerdb? 2013/11/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/9/2013 3:09 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 9:37 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, my analogy, however badly its thought-up, is to force the idealists to produce. My idea was to force the idealist back to painful reality and hard choices, rather then mentally living in La La land. Saying Oh they're working on solar and soon.. How about forcing the libertarians to painful reality. They're going through the six stages of denial: 1. There is no global warming. 2. The science is uncertain. 3. There's global warming but it's just a natural cycle. 4. Global warming will really be good for us. 5. It's too costly to stop global warming. 6. Nothing can be done. Most of them I know are stuck around 3 or 4 now. They're hoping to delay any action so they can get to 6. Why? Because they'd rather face extinction than admit there are some things that you need government to do. Brent, Out of curiosity: why do you care so much about what libertarians think? They are a small minority. I believe most are very much aware that big government is here to stay. Most people in the western world vote for some variation of a conservative or liberal party, both statist. Surely if you are right, and global warming is an existential threat, and government intervention is the only way to solve it, what libertarians think should be quite low in your list of concerns no? Except that they have a disproportionate voice in the public debate because their message is amplified by monied interests who depend on fossil fuel (e.g. the Koch brothers). There was only a small number of lawyers, publicists, and scientists who claimed that: 1. Smoking has nothing to do with lung cancer. 2. There may be a relation but the science is uncertain. 3. Lung cancer just occurs naturally. 4. There are new, healthier cigarettes. 5. It will hurt the economy to limit cigarettes. 6. People should be free to smoke if they want to. and they delayed any government action against smoking for forty years. In fact some of them are *exactly* the same people hired to spread doubt about global warming. To undertake big government action in a democracy you need a solid majority in the populace. As long as libertarians and oil companies can sow doubt that's enough to prevent any action. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 12:04 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 2:19 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 10:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 12:29 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: As I said before, I am agnostic on this issue for the following reasons: - I am not educated in climate science and I am sufficiently educated in science to understand that it would take years of full-time effort to get to a point where I could judge the merit of climate science research findings by myself -- even there I would probably have to become an insider, because I understand that a lot of key data is never made publicly available; - I am sufficiently knowledgable of complex systems to be skeptical of the predictive power of any complex systems model at our current level of sophistication; - The issue became so heavily politicised that it is basically not reasonable to trust news reporting on either side of it. I am aware of the 5th IPCC report and I am also aware of claims by reputable climate scientists that the models' predictions appear to be deviating increasingly from the observables: http://judithcurry.com/2013/10/30/implications-for-climate-models-of-their-disagreement-with-observations/ Are you aware that Judith Curry was on the Berkley Earth team to resolve the question of whether the earth is actually warming. She and Richard Muller had been critical of the analyses performed by NOAA, Hadley, CRU, and GISS. When the new analysis, which met all the past criticisms, confirmed all the previous conclusions, she quit the team and shifted her criticism from it's not happening to it's not predictable. Notice that means it could be a lot worse than predicted too - but the Deniers and FUDers never mention that. I've been around long enough to know that she could possibly describe the same sequence of events in a way that makes her look good and her opponents bad. I am more interested in the graphs. Then look at these: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/02/2012-updates-to-model-observation-comparions/ Ok so what's wrong with Judith's graphs? I am not invested in disproving global warming. I like to think I am scientifically-minded, so I accept reality whatever it is. I hope it is wrong. I suspect some people want it to be true. Yes, you're the perfect example of the success of the Deniers FUD campaign. Maybe, but I would be more confident that I was witnessing a serious scientific debate if people were not using terms like Deniers and FUD campaign. But that's exactly the point. You are NOT witnessing a serious scientific debate. There's ZERO serious science on the side of Deniers. This is an extraordinary claim. Zero serious science? They are like anti-evolutionist. You resort too much to ad hominem and arguments from authority. If we're having a long conversation about this then use it to teach me something instead. Explain me the models and explain why the deniers are wrong. All they do is look for some small anomaly (like a prediction that was off) and say, What about THAT?. You are witnessing a disinformation campaign - and the cui bono is pretty obvious. 98% of all climate scientists agree that AGW is happening and it will have bad consequences. This is a badly disguised argument from authority. It's precisely phrases like 98% of all climate scientists... that triggered my BS alarms in this issue. Since you said you didn't feel up to understanding the science what are you going to rely on? I didn't say I didn't feel like it or that I was unwilling to do it. I said I believed it would not be possible, with a reasonable amount of effort, to have an informed opinion. Are you a climatologist? If not, you seem to believe otherwise beacuse you arrived at a strong conclusion. In which case, feel free to tell me about the models and why it's easier to be certain than I think. Talking heads on Faux News or the IPCC? This is a false dichotomy, of course. I sent you a link from the blog of an accredited climate scientist. Her credentials seem legit, from what I can gather from the Internet. Your reply to that was to attack her character, not her ideas or data. This worries me. I assume Faux News means Fox News? I'm not an american so I must have watched Fox News two or three times in my life, out of morbid curiosity when travelling. Plus a few funny videos on youtube that people share. Telmo. But you're aware of skeptical scientists, like Judith Curry (who are given TV time on Faux News), so it's a toss-up. It's been heavily politicized - by money from the fossil fuel companies - so no news can be trusted. You're not expert enough to read the scientific literature - so you're agnostic. This may be the case. You *suspect* some people want it to be true??? Well I'm almost sure. In other words you suspect some academics of wanting to trash
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
The effects of global warming are visible in quite a few places around the world now. Glaciers have retreated worldwide, and the Arctic sea ice is getting thinner and not extending so far. Measurements indicate average temperatures have risen, and there are of course increased levels of atmospheric CO2. Since I am not an expert I have to trust those who are, such as the World Meteorological Organization. Their latest report says the planet experienced unprecedented high-impact climate extremes in the ten years from 2001 to 2010, the warmest decade since the start of modern measurements in 1850. Those ten years also continued an extended period of accelerating global warming, with more national temperature records reported broken than in any previous decade. Sea levels rose about twice as fast as the trend in the last century. A WMO report, The Global Climate 2001-2010, A Decade of Climate Extremeshttp://library.wmo.int/opac/index.php?lvl=notice_displayid=15110, analyses global and regional temperatures and precipitation, and extreme weather such as the heat waves in Europe and Russia, Hurricane Katrina in the US, tropical cyclone Nargis in Myanmar, droughts in the Amazon basin, Australia and East Africa, and floods in Pakistan. Obviously they could all be politically motivated or in the pay of mysterious socialist organisations, and it's always possible that their modelling is wildly inaccurate, but unless someone is actually making up the data and the measurements then *something* is going on which is causing the world to warm. It appears to be an observational fact, and it's one which has potentially dire consequences for the human race, since it can wipe out swathes of the easy argicultural life we've enjoyed since the start of the last interglacial. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
Watch out the black helicopters are coming for you From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 1:21 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World No. In this case I´m not insulting, just gently defending myself, since I´m a Warmism infidel, I used to be a dangerous smoker , so may I have to pay for it with my life if the next wave of human rights advocates take over. And, I have to confess, I fart from time to time and no doubt this will be severely punished, as a noisy and smelly violation of Human Rights, by the state and the International institutions in a few years. 2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com When somebody doesn’t agree with you, do you then start insulting them? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:36 PM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World I think that, since the forces of progress and human dignity lost Siberia as the location for stablishing psychiatrics to reconduct deviated enemies of the People, The North and South poles can well be used to make global warming negationist to reconsider is position against Humanity and human rights. Don´t you think so, comrade Meekerdb? 2013/11/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/9/2013 3:09 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 9:37 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, my analogy, however badly its thought-up, is to force the idealists to produce. My idea was to force the idealist back to painful reality and hard choices, rather then mentally living in La La land. Saying Oh they're working on solar and soon.. How about forcing the libertarians to painful reality. They're going through the six stages of denial: 1. There is no global warming. 2. The science is uncertain. 3. There's global warming but it's just a natural cycle. 4. Global warming will really be good for us. 5. It's too costly to stop global warming. 6. Nothing can be done. Most of them I know are stuck around 3 or 4 now. They're hoping to delay any action so they can get to 6. Why? Because they'd rather face extinction than admit there are some things that you need government to do. Brent, Out of curiosity: why do you care so much about what libertarians think? They are a small minority. I believe most are very much aware that big government is here to stay. Most people in the western world vote for some variation of a conservative or liberal party, both statist. Surely if you are right, and global warming is an existential threat, and government intervention is the only way to solve it, what libertarians think should be quite low in your list of concerns no? Except that they have a disproportionate voice in the public debate because their message is amplified by monied interests who depend on fossil fuel (e.g. the Koch brothers). There was only a small number of lawyers, publicists, and scientists who claimed that: 1. Smoking has nothing to do with lung cancer. 2. There may be a relation but the science is uncertain. 3. Lung cancer just occurs naturally. 4. There are new, healthier cigarettes. 5. It will hurt the economy to limit cigarettes. 6. People should be free to smoke if they want to. and they delayed any government action against smoking for forty years. In fact some of them are *exactly* the same people hired to spread doubt about global warming. To undertake big government action in a democracy you need a solid majority in the populace. As long as libertarians and oil companies can sow doubt that's enough to prevent any action. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
I will reject them with a pack of snuff and a fan. They will run towards their politicians crying for their human rights 2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com Watch out the black helicopters are coming for you *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 1:21 AM *To:* everything-list *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World No. In this case I´m not insulting, just gently defending myself, since I´m a Warmism infidel, I used to be a dangerous smoker , so may I have to pay for it with my life if the next wave of human rights advocates take over. And, I have to confess, I fart from time to time and no doubt this will be severely punished, as a noisy and smelly violation of Human Rights, by the state and the International institutions in a few years. 2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com When somebody doesn’t agree with you, do you then start insulting them? *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona *Sent:* Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:36 PM *To:* everything-list *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World I think that, since the forces of progress and human dignity lost Siberia as the location for stablishing psychiatrics to reconduct deviated enemies of the People, The North and South poles can well be used to make global warming negationist to reconsider is position against Humanity and human rights. Don´t you think so, comrade Meekerdb? 2013/11/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/9/2013 3:09 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 9:37 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, my analogy, however badly its thought-up, is to force the idealists to produce. My idea was to force the idealist back to painful reality and hard choices, rather then mentally living in La La land. Saying Oh they're working on solar and soon.. How about forcing the libertarians to painful reality. They're going through the six stages of denial: 1. There is no global warming. 2. The science is uncertain. 3. There's global warming but it's just a natural cycle. 4. Global warming will really be good for us. 5. It's too costly to stop global warming. 6. Nothing can be done. Most of them I know are stuck around 3 or 4 now. They're hoping to delay any action so they can get to 6. Why? Because they'd rather face extinction than admit there are some things that you need government to do. Brent, Out of curiosity: why do you care so much about what libertarians think? They are a small minority. I believe most are very much aware that big government is here to stay. Most people in the western world vote for some variation of a conservative or liberal party, both statist. Surely if you are right, and global warming is an existential threat, and government intervention is the only way to solve it, what libertarians think should be quite low in your list of concerns no? Except that they have a disproportionate voice in the public debate because their message is amplified by monied interests who depend on fossil fuel (e.g. the Koch brothers). There was only a small number of lawyers, publicists, and scientists who claimed that: 1. Smoking has nothing to do with lung cancer. 2. There may be a relation but the science is uncertain. 3. Lung cancer just occurs naturally. 4. There are new, healthier cigarettes. 5. It will hurt the economy to limit cigarettes. 6. People should be free to smoke if they want to. and they delayed any government action against smoking for forty years. In fact some of them are *exactly* the same people hired to spread doubt about global warming. To undertake big government action in a democracy you need a solid majority in the populace. As long as libertarians and oil companies can sow doubt that's enough to prevent any action. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
A Grand Council of Truth? And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend slides over a closed sports magazine. Have a look at this article in the middle, here. Inside the magazine is a rather thick envelope. -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure. It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been lied. It is very often hard to delineate them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: I am emphasizing having governments print out (Keynes style) absolutely, colossal, amounts of cash, as a reward for coming up with excellent disease treatments and cures, human solar system tours, and clean energy solution, environmental remediation. If the banks won't fund researchers, then private equity will, if private equity won't then a million contributors-open source-will, provided they get a cut of the reward offered by a government prize. I wouldn't be shocked if you, Professor, Marchal, might summon up 25 ECU's in exchange for receiving 3000 ECU's or Golden Yuans, in payment, 5 years later. Only if this reflects some honest contracts. Honesty is not just moral, it is something which elevates a lot the real value of money. It generates trust. Be honest. If you don't try to be honest for the calm of your conscience, do it for the wealth of your children. Today big corporations are based on lies. That's the problem. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Ah, but Brents' point is that smoking and cancer are proven fact. However, at the time, Troifim Lysenko's views on biology were proven. So were the Eugenicists that lead directly to Dachau. Almost 100% concurred (physicians, anthropologists, geneticists, biologists) on this fact. What's a motivation for exaggerating the impacting of AGW? More power over peoples lives by politicians (unless one agrees with the self-congratulatory speeches the give on their sacrifice for public service?), academicians who would have guaranteed income from research, Billionaires, can get subsidies from Uncle Sugar-so all is well. On the other side, there are coal companies, oil drillers, who would suffer economically. So, who is the villain, Colonel Mustard in the kitchen, or the master's butler? My suspicion is that people, in the BRIC's and also the US must be pouring some significant co2, methane, and carbon black into the atmosphere. To what effect, I do not know, because I do not trust. All I can say, if you've got a substitute electricity maker, and it works 7x24, affordable, doesn't pollute, then bring it forward. If not, then we're all just playing pretend with our own lives. Example: When Germany shut down it nukes 2 years ago because of Fukushima, they are now burning hundreds of megatons of US coal. This is the result of not having a Working Substitute ready. -Original Message- From: Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 8:09 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World You comment does not merit a response. On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 7:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 4:21 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Richard Lindzen from MIT is a serious academic scientist who has some reservations about the IPCC reports and is often labeled as a denier. I put my faith in hisresearch. I hope you didn't also put your faith in those doctors who had reservations as to whether smoking causes lung cancer? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
You are making this too complicated. We have living examples every year when the power drops due to too, hot, too cold. Let's use Paris where this has occurred over the last 10 years at least twice. The heat comes in from North Africa, a blocking high happens over northern Europe, and the heat sinks in. France's reactors go on full, and there's still not enough air conditioning to cool people. Elders die first, then the very young, and there were thousands dead if I recall right. The same thing happens when winter sets in, peoples power lines drop from ice, heat goes out, people die, first the elderly, then the infants. In 2001 Los Angeles, but their economics ordered the price to stay low on Nat Gas, the suppliers said F-O, and there were rolling blackouts and brownouts in LA. My fear. Chris, installs some solar panels and wind farms, it covers 23% of total electrical production. Chris. order the filthy dirty fascist polluting power sources to go cold. There are rolling blackouts and brownouts. In December, a big winter storm hits. First oldsters, then babies, people complain a little. Chris responds, Look, people die all the time. At least a lot fewer people will die now of pollution caused disease, our climate will start to heal, we can move, now, slowly, painfully, to a clean energy future. Sacrifices must be made if the human species is to survive. Onward to a better brighter future! So name your poison, climate collapse or social disintegration due to a energy starvation? -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 8:10 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:24 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Cool, I didn't bother to look it up, but rather remembered San Onofre. Whatever you want for solar, and if it cannot supply replacement electricity sufficiently, and you still shutdown the dirty sources, anyway, people will die. Explain exactly how people will die? Curious to see how your thinking works to make you state this as if it were a fact. -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:08 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World One example might be the San Onofre plant in California, near San Diego. It's a uranium burner, and supplies 90% of the electricity, about 85% of the time. But let us look at your sun and wind power contribution that you mentioned before. 40 GW, which I am assuming, is GW's per kilowatt hour, rather than a day, a week, etc? Lets say, its not inconsiderable (40 x 1000 MW plants) but its also not reliable when the sun don't shine, the winds don't blow. Do you expect these clean sources to fully replace the dirty one's in ten years, twenty years, five years, thirty? When can we turn of these poisonous electricity sources that we have come to rely on? Do you advocate shutting these suckers down, before the solar and wind supplied power is fully, implemented? The San Onofre nuclear power plant has been decommissioned – it is past its service life and now many more billions of dollars are going to be need to be spent over decades of time in order to decommission this facility – (it was very intelligently sited on an earthquake fault line by the way) Cost estimates for permanently closing and decommissioning San Onofre are over $4 billion. “The plant's first unit, Unit 1, operated from 1968 to 1992.[5] Unit 2 was started in 1983 and Unit 3 started in 1984. Upgrades designed to last 20 years were made to the reactor units in 2009 and 2010; however, both reactors had to be shut down in January 2012 due to premature wear found on over 3,000 tubes in the recently replaced steam generators.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Onofre_Nuclear_Generating_Station The actual answer to your question then is that the San Onofre power plants are supplying 0% of the San Diego electric energy market with electric power. You might want to pick a better example to make your case. LOL -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 1:51 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World Name me one large city that gets its power 100% exclusively from coal or from nuclear? You can’t because all major energy markets are fed by a mix of energy generation capacity. Yet you keep on with this straw