Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[ajtiM]

Nice web page…
Is KompoZer still useful? I have BlueGriffon.

On Jun 17, 2013, at 9:02 AM, Greg Chapman  wrote:

> Hi Renaud,
> 
> On 15 Jun 13 12:36 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI 
>  said:
>>> To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.
>> 
>> This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are 
>> still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication
> 
> You must know by now we Brits are going metric inch by inch! (A point 
> first made to me by a Norwegian friend!)
> 
> Greg Chapman
> http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
> Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP
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Mitja

http://www.redbubble.com/people/lumiwa

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Greg Chapman]

Hi Renaud,

On 15 Jun 13 12:36 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI 
 said:
> > To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.
> 
> This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are 
> still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication

You must know by now we Brits are going metric inch by inch! (A point 
first made to me by a Norwegian friend!)

Greg Chapman
http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Ofnuts]

On 06/17/2013 06:38 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

On Mon, 2013-06-17 at 00:52 +0200, Ofnuts wrote:

  if you only do local editing and save the image back with the
exact same JPEG quality settings, the "blocks" which no changed pixels
very quickly end up producing the very same data as their source in the
JPEG file in every editing cycle,

This depends on the sorts of edits you do.

For example, changing contrast or levels globally, or running a sharpen
filter, will often accentuate the original jpeg artifacts so that they
in turn create new artifacts.

(that's why I mentioned levels, curves and sharpen explicitly in the
post i made somewhere else in this thread).


Yes, this is why I said "local" editing.

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Stephen Allen]

Excellent post sir. Just because one is in software development, doesn'
t mean they understand professional image editing workflow.

Yeah I'm looking at a certain Debian developer  ;-D

-- 
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Stephen, Toronto
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Liam R E Quin]

On Mon, 2013-06-17 at 00:52 +0200, Ofnuts wrote:
>  if you only do local editing and save the image back with the 
> exact same JPEG quality settings, the "blocks" which no changed pixels 
> very quickly end up producing the very same data as their source in the 
> JPEG file in every editing cycle,

This depends on the sorts of edits you do.

For example, changing contrast or levels globally, or running a sharpen
filter, will often accentuate the original jpeg artifacts so that they
in turn create new artifacts.

(that's why I mentioned levels, curves and sharpen explicitly in the
post i made somewhere else in this thread).

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Bob Long]

Helen wrote,

[I'm replying to the group so others can shoot me down if I'm wrong...]

> I've tried to understand your disinctions   (and thank you, I appreciate
> it) but I just can't
> understand the relevance.   I'm going to re-read.   Not trying to be
> dense, but, whether
> I call it a file or a display of pixels, the sticking point is that
> after I export to .jpg or
> .png, I want that file (yes, I think it's a file) with the name
> orchare-scaled.png to be
> on my screen and be editable.   And it isn't. 

Please explain what you mean by "it isn't" "on my screen." Previously
you have used the word "disappears". Perhaps give exact, step-by-step
keystroke/menu selections that you use and what happens.

> > I then had that Orchard-scaled.png on my screen and I could make
> changes if
> > I wanted to before mailing it.
> 
> No, you do not have a ".png" "file" on your screen. You have a display
> of pixels that were unchanged when you saved to disk as .png.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, but see, I dn't have that display of pixels, whatever we call it. 

Please explain, as above.

> If I want
> to edit that "file"  I have to open it.  It opens with .xcf extension. 
> I love the
> .xcf extension when I'm working on it, but not when it's time to mail it.
> 
> 
> > It seems I can't do that any more.
> 
> Nothing has changed in that regard.
> 
> 
> Well, it has for me.  I still have GIMP 2.6 on ubuntu laptop (but I
> don't want to work long
> hours on a thinkpad) and it clearly has changed.  I think I have not
> been able to explain
> clearly, but GIMP -- at least at my house -- will edit only an
> assortment of pixel which
> contain a filename with an .xcf extension.

GIMP will open any image file (that it is able to), not just .xcf files.
Strictly, for non .xcf files, it will "import", but that is transparent
to the user.

Consider .jpg as an example. Such a file is stored on disk in a
compressed format. When GIMP opens it, it uncompresses the data and
turns the information into "a display of pixels" on the screen. That
information is now in memory, uncompressed.

I can't remember how 2.6 named the image window, but if it said
"Orchard-scaled.jpg" (or png) it simply means that that is the file that
was opened. It does not mean the contents in memory are in the same
format as the data on a disk file of the same name.

(See http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Save_%2B_export_specification for
more details of how the title of the image window and naming works.)

In short, once you are editing an image, forget about the format of the
file that was opened. It's no longer relevant. GIMP is working on a
different "arrangement of pixels."

It's only when you save or export to disk again that GIMP will rearrange
those pixels into a form required by the external file format.

In the case of .jpg, which is a lossy format, the saving process (2.6),
or the export process (2.8), will throw away information that is deemed
to be (relatively) unnoticeable to the human eye. But what remains in
memory (whichever version of GIMP) is the complete lossless image.

Repeating: what is in memory is not a .png, .jpg. .gif or whatever,
format anymore.

Which is why if a .jpg is repeatedly edited/saved (exported)/reopened it
will lose quality.

> I'm trying to understand but will have to go over this again.  I do
> appreciate your patience.
> 
> Helen

Hope that helps.

-- 
Bob Long


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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Ofnuts]

On 06/15/2013 07:53 PM, Grue wrote:
Wow, just wow. Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as 
JPEG, you lose information. It is by design a lossy image format that 
uses an algorithm to conserve your disk space via throwing away some 
"insignificant" information (which works well for photos, but ruins 
many other types of images). Worse yet, if you edit a JPEG image and 
resave it, you lose even more information. This results in very 
noticeable artifacts in the image. And GIMP actually tries to prevent 
you from this destructive workflow, yet you keep doing it anyway, and 
you're complaining about GIMP instead of your own ineptitude. Please, 
if you work with images, learn about image formats and how they work. 
The eyes of people who look at your images will thank you later. 


Well, not really... This is what everyone thinks/is told but in 
practice, if you only do local editing and save the image back with the 
exact same JPEG quality settings, the "blocks" which no changed pixels 
very quickly end up producing the very same data as their source in the 
JPEG file in every editing cycle, so the image as a whole doesn't 
degrade after the two or three first editing sessions. I have a script 
somewhere that repeatedly edits and saves an image with ImageMagick  to 
demonstrate this, This is is even used in image forensics: to find the 
edited spots in a JPEG image you have been given, save it again, then 
compare the two images. Chances are that the encoding of the edited 
parts hasn't "settled down" yet and will produce slightly different 
values when saved, so the two images will show minute differences in the 
edited places.

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Michael Schumacher]

On 16.06.2013 15:03, Bob Long wrote:


So, again, if I understand you, the new export process has actually
revealed an error in your previous workflow.


Revealing that misconception is one of the change's goals. See
http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Save_%2B_export_specification

--
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Michael



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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Richard Gitschlag]

Ah, finally, some concrete specifics.  Let me digest that...

> Old way:   Create file 300x300, work on it.

Okay, you now have one window/tab displaying your image.  (Since this is just 
an example, I'm not going to question whether the image is 300x300 pixels or 
some arbitrary size tagged as 300dpi.  But always include the unit-of-measure 
with a number.)

> Save as orchard.xcf, all layers intact, everything fine.

Gotcha.

>  Scaled image to 72x72, named it Orchard-scaled.png (or .jpg if that's what 
> they ask for).

Right, so you did indeed rescale the image size (and update the dpi to reflect 
the new pixel dimensions) and after that you output it as a separate file using 
a standard image format.  No problems here.

> I then had that Orchard-scaled.png on my screen and I could make changes if I 
> wanted to before mailing it.

This is because in the 2.6 model the open image is named according to its 
most-recently-saved filename (regardless of file format).  So yes, if say you 
forgot to add a watermark or something you could simply make the change and hit 
"Save" to re-output orchard-scaled.png .  Note that by doing this you lose the 
ability to quickly save said changes back to your XCF unless/until you 
specifically tell GIMP to "Save As..." an XCF again.  (Ironically, since you 
did an image rescale between the XCF and PNG, GIMP losing track of the XCF is 
probably a good thing.)

> It seems I can't do that any more. Now, if I want to see my 72x72 
> Orchard-scaled.png, I have to open it, and as soon as I open it, it becomes a 
> file that I can't mail because it's no longer a .png.

Not exactly.  The open image window is labelled something along the lines of 
"Untitled [original filename]".  'Untitled' refers to the XCF associated with 
the open window (or in this case the lack thereof, since it was opened directly 
from a standard image file) but the window title does note that the image was 
nonetheless loaded from a file.  

More importantly, the file on disk remains completely unchanged (and mailable); 
GIMP doesn't even place a lock on the file handle (unlike many commercial 
products); you could open your mail software and attach/send a copy of your PNG 
even while GIMP is still running.

I agree, though, in some cases you do want to verify what the exported file 
looks like, in which case you do need to open that file in a separate 
window/tab.  No way around that, in fact there never was :(

> So my Q, is there a way to open that .png, keep it a .png,  tweak it if I 
> want to, save the .png and mail it? 

Yes, just use the "Export" commands instead of the "Save" commands, keeping in 
mind that in 2.8 Save only works on XCF files:

- When you are working on an XCF, you will be prompted for the filename (and 
assorted filetype options) the first time you hit the Export command, but after 
that, as long as GIMP remains open you can re-export that image at any time 
(with no additional prompts or dialogs) by using the "Export to [filename]" 
command.

- When you open a standard file format, one of the "Export" options will become 
"Overwrite [filename]" which is the equivalent of a quick save back to the 
original filename with as few GIMP prompts/dialogs as possible. (Note that in 
practice you should never do this with JPG files)


-- Stratadrake
strata_ran...@hotmail.com

Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.
  
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? [saving undo history]

[Richard Gitschlag]

> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 08:40:34 -0500
> From: jnagyjr1...@gmail.com
> To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
> Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? [saving undo history]
> 
> > On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 08:03 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:
> > How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a
> > ten-seconds-ago mistake?  I can't personally name a single application
> > that stores undo history with the document's workfile; but if you can,
> > let me know.
> 
> Office software, when you set it to display revisions, in a way saves 
> undo history.

Come to think of it, I've used that.  MS Word's "Track Changes" feature turns 
out to be quite useful when you're proofreading someone else's copy.  But it is 
not a full undo history, just a diff between the original (oldest) and revised 
(newest) copies.


-- Stratadrake
strata_ran...@hotmail.com

Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

  
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Michael Schumacher]

On 15.06.2013 17:03, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

 > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:30:43 +0200
 > From: schum...@gmx.de
 > To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
 > Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
 >
 > . . . That's not perfect yet - for example, you lose the undo history
. . .

How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a
ten-seconds-ago mistake?


You think about it as a way to correct mistakes.

Think about it as a way to change the history of anything done to the image.


--
Regards,
Michael

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? [saving undo history]

[Joseph A. Nagy, Jr]

On 06/15/13 22:38, Liam R E Quin wrote:

On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 08:03 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:30:43 +0200
From: schum...@gmx.de
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

. . . That's not perfect yet - for example, you lose the undo history . . .


How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a
ten-seconds-ago mistake?  I can't personally name a single application
that stores undo history with the document's workfile; but if you can,
let me know.


"no-one swims across the river here so we don't need a bridge"?

I've used commercial software that stored editing history in a database
- you can go back through the entire history of most aircraft manuals
and see all the edits, for example, for obvious legal reasons.

I've many times wished I could save undo history - e.g. I'm
experimenting, but my flight is boarding or my battery is low.

Liam




Office software, when you set it to display revisions, in a way saves 
undo history.


--
Yours in Christ,

Joseph A Nagy Jr
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction
is stupid." -- Proverbs 12:1
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Bob Long]

Helen wrote,

>> Also, when you export the image to a JPEG, if suddenly your open image
>> window "disappears", well that is not supposed to happen at all and sounds
>> something like a GIMP program crash, but we don't have enough information
>> as is to determine that.  And when GIMP crashes, you at least get a message
>> telling you in no ambiguous terms that something crashed.
>>
> 
> No, GIMP is not crashing.
> The  pix.xcf is still on the screen.

What you see on screen is not .xcf or .jpg or any FILE format.

> Old way:   Create file 300x300, work on it.
> Save as orchard.xcf, all layers intact, everything fine.
> Scaled image to 72x72, named it Orchard-scaled.png (or .jpg if that's what
> they ask for).

You have created a file on disk in the format .png (or .jpg).

> I then had that Orchard-scaled.png on my screen and I could make changes if
> I wanted to before mailing it.

No, you do not have a ".png" "file" on your screen. You have a display
of pixels that were unchanged when you saved to disk as .png. If you had
saved as .jpg, the saving process would have lost information as it
saved to disk but the memory image would have stayed unchanged and would
not have lost any information.

So if you were thinking that what you were seeing on screen is exactly
what the .jpg on disk would like, after the saving process lost
information in creating the .jpg (and thus not needing to re-open the
.jpg to check), then you were mistaken.

> It seems I can't do that any more.

Nothing has changed in that regard.

> Now, if I want to see my 72x72 Orchard-scaled.png, I have to open it, and
> as soon as I open it, it becomes
> a file that I can't mail because it's no longer a .png.

As soon as you open it, you have as display on screen of the image. The
file on disk has not been changed by opening it.

> So my Q, is there a way to open that .png, keep it a .png,  tweak it if I
> want to, save the .png and mail it?

Well, you open it, edit it, and export it (or, at least in my version,
there is an "Overwrite..." option, but that of course will lose the
previous version) as whatever file type you want, and mail it.

If I understand you, I think you are confusing what GIMP has in memory
with what file format is actually stored on disk.

I suspect in your old workflow you have been presuming what what
remained on screen was the same as a saved lossy format on disk.

And because of the same misunderstanding, you have presumed that the new
export process required you to reload the image to see the result.

That second presumption is more correct, so strictly speaking your old
process was not actually doing you what you thought it was.

Of course, depending on the degree of lossy-ness of the saved format,
you may not be able to see the difference.

So, again, if I understand you, the new export process has actually
revealed an error in your previous workflow.

-- 
Bob Long


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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Helen]

>
> Also, when you export the image to a JPEG, if suddenly your open image
> window "disappears", well that is not supposed to happen at all and sounds
> something like a GIMP program crash, but we don't have enough information
> as is to determine that.  And when GIMP crashes, you at least get a message
> telling you in no ambiguous terms that something crashed.
>

No, GIMP is not crashing.
The  pix.xcf is still on the screen.

Old way:   Create file 300x300, work on it.
Save as orchard.xcf, all layers intact, everything fine.
Scaled image to 72x72, named it Orchard-scaled.png (or .jpg if that's what
they ask for).
I then had that Orchard-scaled.png on my screen and I could make changes if
I wanted to before mailing it.
It seems I can't do that any more.
Now, if I want to see my 72x72 Orchard-scaled.png, I have to open it, and
as soon as I open it, it becomes
a file that I can't mail because it's no longer a .png.
So my Q, is there a way to open that .png, keep it a .png,  tweak it if I
want to, save the .png and mail it?





>
> -- Stratadrake
> strata_ran...@hotmail.com
> 
> Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.
>



-- 
Helen Etters
using Linux, suse12.3
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Andrew & Bridget]

Bob you are indeed correct as the image is held in the memory not a file type, 
the point I was trying to make was that the image is no longer a .jpg. I 
believe there is a little confusion here generally with what Helen is trying to 
do. I think she needs several scaled images. 


Sent from my iPad

On 16 Jun 2013, at 06:54, Bob Long  wrote:

> Andrew & Bridget wrote,
> 
>> When you open a image in GIMP you are basically importing any image type
>> into the software, so whilst you are editing in GIMP it is no longer a
>> .jpg or .tif or other that you opened it is a .xcf file, hence why you
>> now export.  Where previous versions you opened a .jpg and you saved to
>> .jpg, it was still a .xcf file while you where editing it but the
>> software automatically saved it back to the format you opened it in,
>> unless you selected .xcf or others to save it too.
> 
> I think there is some confusion here. As I understand it, when an image
> is open in GIMP and is being edited, the image you see is the display on
> screen of an "arrangement of pixels in memory", rather than a .xcf (or
> any other file format) file.
> 
> And that has been the process even before the change to the save/export
> process.
> 
> That is, .xcf. .jpg, and any other file to which you end up saving are
> file formats, not what is currently being edited in memory.
> 
> It's only when you save (which GIMP now limits to the .xcf file format),
> or export (to other file formats), that the "arrangement of pixels in
> memory" is rearranged again for whatever the on-disk file format requires.
> 
> -- 
> Bob Long
> 
> 
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Bob Long]

Andrew & Bridget wrote,

> When you open a image in GIMP you are basically importing any image type
> into the software, so whilst you are editing in GIMP it is no longer a
> .jpg or .tif or other that you opened it is a .xcf file, hence why you
> now export.  Where previous versions you opened a .jpg and you saved to
> .jpg, it was still a .xcf file while you where editing it but the
> software automatically saved it back to the format you opened it in,
> unless you selected .xcf or others to save it too.

I think there is some confusion here. As I understand it, when an image
is open in GIMP and is being edited, the image you see is the display on
screen of an "arrangement of pixels in memory", rather than a .xcf (or
any other file format) file.

And that has been the process even before the change to the save/export
process.

That is, .xcf. .jpg, and any other file to which you end up saving are
file formats, not what is currently being edited in memory.

It's only when you save (which GIMP now limits to the .xcf file format),
or export (to other file formats), that the "arrangement of pixels in
memory" is rearranged again for whatever the on-disk file format requires.

-- 
Bob Long


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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Helen wrote:

> don't see any way around the repeated reopenings

Mmm... There's this difficult to catch bug... Sometimes when there are
multiple images opened in the single-window mode, exporting an image
that's among the first tabs to the left results in GIMP jumping to the
last opened image (rightmost tab). That _could_ give an impression
that GIMP closes an image.

Is that what's happening?

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? [saving undo history]

[Archie Arevalo]

On 06/16/2013 11:38 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 08:03 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:30:43 +0200
From: schum...@gmx.de
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

. . . That's not perfect yet - for example, you lose the undo history . . .

How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a
ten-seconds-ago mistake?  I can't personally name a single application
that stores undo history with the document's workfile; but if you can,
let me know.

"no-one swims across the river here so we don't need a bridge"?

I've used commercial software that stored editing history in a database
- you can go back through the entire history of most aircraft manuals
and see all the edits, for example, for obvious legal reasons.

I've many times wished I could save undo history - e.g. I'm
experimenting, but my flight is boarding or my battery is low.

Liam


Think about it. Undo history can actually save some users the hassle of 
an overlooked mistake. It's there quietly sitting in the corner not 
really berating the workflow. It's not like it's really affecting a 
smooth workflow.


Archie
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ? [saving undo history]

[Liam R E Quin]

On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 08:03 -0700, Richard Gitschlag wrote:
> > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:30:43 +0200
> > From: schum...@gmx.de
> > To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
> > Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
> > 
> > . . . That's not perfect yet - for example, you lose the undo history . . .
> 
> How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a
> ten-seconds-ago mistake?  I can't personally name a single application
> that stores undo history with the document's workfile; but if you can,
> let me know.

"no-one swims across the river here so we don't need a bridge"?

I've used commercial software that stored editing history in a database
- you can go back through the entire history of most aircraft manuals
and see all the edits, for example, for obvious legal reasons.

I've many times wished I could save undo history - e.g. I'm
experimenting, but my flight is boarding or my battery is low.

Liam


-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
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Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Liam R E Quin]

On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 22:37 -0400, Helen wrote:
> The export feature could have been added without
> disabling the save as feature. 
Control-shift-e (export to) works like the old "save as" for non-xcf
formats.

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Liam R E Quin]

On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 16:14 -0400, Helen wrote:
>  When I export, it closes!

The preview will close but the original image is still open.

If you use single-window-mode, GIMP then switches back to a random (or
unpredictable) image, not the one you were working on, but it's still
there.

My own workflow for www.fromoldbooks.org is usually
1. file->create->from scanner, scan an image
2. save (export) the image as imagename-raw.png (lossless format)
3. edit the image to clean up the scan (10 minutes to 3 hours)
4. save (export) the result to imagename-cleaned.png
5. scale down from print to Web size and export as jpeg,
imagename-1x1.jpg
6. undo, scale down to a smaller size and export again
7. repeat for up to a dozen sizes
all without closing the GIMP.

It's complicated considerably if you have more than one layer, or a
floating selection, but I almost always have only a single layer by the
time I'm doing the final saves/exports.

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Richard Gitschlag]

> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 16:12:06 -0400
> From: etter...@gmail.com
> To: tomd...@comcast.net
> CC: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
> Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
> 
> Not exactly, no, the edited image that is now on my screen, the xcf, is
> probably a resolution of 300 x 300 and may be a print size of 12 x 16;
> But the exported
> image is a resolution of 72 and is not meant for printing.   *That* is the
> one that I have to re-open (because I can't force it not to close when I
> export.)   *That's* the one I have to mail, and if I decided to make a
> tweak, I can't just save and mail -- I have to export, re-open ...   I
> don't see any way around the repeated reopenings except to make sure
> everything I do is perfect the first time, and that's even less likely than
> the developers reconsidering this.  Thank you Tom.
> 

I'm not making any sense of this at all.  Image resolution is a piece of 
metadata and does not in any way dictate the size of the image as measured in 
actual image pixels.  If you open an image whose tags say "300 dpi", when you 
save (or export) it the output file will contain that 300dpi setting.  Now if 
the image is 12"x16" and tagged as 300dpi this means that the image's physical 
PIXEL dimensions are 3600x4800.  And when you export this image to a JPG, that 
JPG will still be be 3600x4800 pixels large (and tagged as 300dpi) unless you 
specifically dictated to GIMP otherwise.  Going to the Image menu and selecting 
"Resize image..." rescales the image to a different size in pixels (but doesn't 
necessarily change the dpi metadata); selecting "Print Size..." lets you set 
the dpi metadata directly, but doesn't change the pixel content of the image.

Also, when you export the image to a JPEG, if suddenly your open image window 
"disappears", well that is not supposed to happen at all and sounds something 
like a GIMP program crash, but we don't have enough information as is to 
determine that.  And when GIMP crashes, you at least get a message telling you 
in no ambiguous terms that something crashed.

-- Stratadrake
strata_ran...@hotmail.com

Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.
  
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Andrew & Bridget]

Not exactly, no, the edited image that is now on my screen, the xcf, is
probably a resolution of 300 x 300 and may be a print size of 12 x 16;
But the exported
image is a resolution of 72 and is not meant for printing.   *That* is the
one that I have to re-open (because I can't force it not to close when I
export.)   *That's* the one I have to mail, and if I decided to make a
tweak, I can't just save and mail -- I have to export, re-open ...   I
don't see any way around the repeated reopenings except to make sure
everything I do is perfect the first time, and that's even less likely than
the developers reconsidering this.  Thank you Tom.



gimp-user-list mailing list

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Are you saving these .jpg's in different sizes, one for emailing and one 
for printing ?


When you open a image in GIMP you are basically importing any image type 
into the software, so whilst you are editing in GIMP it is no longer a 
.jpg or .tif or other that you opened it is a .xcf file, hence why you 
now export.  Where previous versions you opened a .jpg and you saved to 
.jpg, it was still a .xcf file while you where editing it but the 
software automatically saved it back to the format you opened it in, 
unless you selected .xcf or others to save it too.

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Michael Schumacher]

On 15.06.2013 22:21, Tom Williams wrote:

On 06/15/2013 01:19 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:



There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of
GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is:

1. File > Export
2. Specify file name
3. Click 'Export'
4. Contonue working on the picture.



I'm thinking Helen is referring to the JPEG preview window that opens,
during the JPEG export process.After the JPEG export is done, the
preview window closes since the file's been saved.


That behavior isn't different to previous versions, though...


--
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Michael

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Simon Budig]

Tom Williams (tomd...@comcast.net) wrote:
> I'm thinking Helen is referring to the JPEG preview window that opens,
> during the JPEG export process.After the JPEG export is done, the
> preview window closes since the file's been saved.

However, the separate window only shows up when one is working in
indexed mode. Which is not what you're doing when you started by opening
a JPEG...

Not sure what is going on there.

Bye,
Simon

-- 
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Tom Williams]

On 06/15/2013 01:19 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Helen wrote:
>
 Exactly!   We should not have to keep opening these files!  They should
 stay on my screen until I finish with them.
>>> But noone's forcing you to close them.
>> Are you kidding?
> Nope.
>
>>  When I export, it closes!
> It shouldn't and it never did so for me. In fact, I don't think it
> ever did that for anybody. I don't see a single report like yours.
>
> There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of
> GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is:
>
> 1. File > Export
> 2. Specify file name
> 3. Click 'Export'
> 4. Contonue working on the picture.
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
> ___
>
I'm thinking Helen is referring to the JPEG preview window that opens,
during the JPEG export process.After the JPEG export is done, the
preview window closes since the file's been saved.

Peace...

Tom

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Joseph A. Nagy, Jr]

On 06/15/13 15:19, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Helen wrote:


Exactly!   We should not have to keep opening these files!  They should
stay on my screen until I finish with them.


But noone's forcing you to close them.


Are you kidding?


Nope.


  When I export, it closes!


It shouldn't and it never did so for me. In fact, I don't think it
ever did that for anybody. I don't see a single report like yours.

There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of
GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is:

1. File > Export
2. Specify file name
3. Click 'Export'
4. Contonue working on the picture.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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I'm with Alexandre on this (unfortunately), this is how GIMP works for 
me. I just do not like having to hit ctrl+e when ctrl+s and then you 
specify file type via extension was the default (and for many people, it 
seems, preferred) behavior.


--
Yours in Christ,

Joseph A Nagy Jr
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction
is stupid." -- Proverbs 12:1
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
Original content CopyFree (F) under the OWL 
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Helen wrote:

>> > Exactly!   We should not have to keep opening these files!  They should
>> > stay on my screen until I finish with them.
>>
>> But noone's forcing you to close them.
>
> Are you kidding?

Nope.

>  When I export, it closes!

It shouldn't and it never did so for me. In fact, I don't think it
ever did that for anybody. I don't see a single report like yours.

There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of
GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is:

1. File > Export
2. Specify file name
3. Click 'Export'
4. Contonue working on the picture.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Helen]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Helen wrote:
> >>
> >> Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as JPEG, you lose
> >> information. It is by design a lossy image format
> >
> >
> > Exactly!   We should not have to keep opening these files!  They should
> > stay on my screen until I finish with them.
>
> But noone's forcing you to close them.
>


Are you kidding?  When I export, it closes!  If you know some way that I
can keep my .png or .tif or .jpg open after saving it (aka exporting) in
that format, please tell us how.  It is the new GIMP that is forcing it to
close!

>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
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using Linux, suse12.3
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Helen]

>   When you make
> an edit on the image and you export it, the JPEG doesn't "disappear" and
> the edited image still shows in the image window. It's that you want to
> see the _exported_ JPEG file to confirm the export resulted in the JPEG
> file you wanted to create for the client
> I think you're thinking you have to re-open the exported JPEG file in
> GIMP to make more edits is causing some confusion.
>

Not exactly, no, the edited image that is now on my screen, the xcf, is
probably a resolution of 300 x 300 and may be a print size of 12 x 16;
But the exported
image is a resolution of 72 and is not meant for printing.   *That* is the
one that I have to re-open (because I can't force it not to close when I
export.)   *That's* the one I have to mail, and if I decided to make a
tweak, I can't just save and mail -- I have to export, re-open ...   I
don't see any way around the repeated reopenings except to make sure
everything I do is perfect the first time, and that's even less likely than
the developers reconsidering this.  Thank you Tom.



gimp-user-list mailing list
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> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list
>



-- 
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using Linux, suse12.3
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Helen wrote:
>>
>> Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as JPEG, you lose
>> information. It is by design a lossy image format
>
>
> Exactly!   We should not have to keep opening these files!  They should
> stay on my screen until I finish with them.

But noone's forcing you to close them.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Helen]

>
> Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as JPEG, you lose
> information. It is by design a lossy image format


Exactly!   We should not have to keep opening these files!  They should
stay on my screen until I finish with them.
Now, in defense of the gallery operators, I am sending a small thumbnail so
that they can ask for the print if they want it -- they are not actually
using my
thumbnail for printing or showing.  But one *still* should not have to keep
re-opening a file because gimp will not let you keep it open after you save
a change.

>
> --
> Grue (via www.gimpusers.com/forums)
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Tom Williams]

On 06/15/2013 12:42 PM, Helen wrote:
> Your steps are pretty much the same as mine.  The misunderstanding
> Iguess is that, after I export,  the .jpg file disappears.  Yes, the
> original image is there, with all it's layers and that is good, but at
> this point, I am finished with the .xcf file and I want to see the
> jpg.  But it is gone, so I have to re-open it.  i may tweak it for the
> agent or gallery, but I can't save it and send it to them,  because as
> soon as I re- opened it,  it became .xcf again.  so I have to export
> again, and, again, it disappears, so I hve to open the jpg again, and
> of course it reverts to ..xcf again ...   it's not the exporting that
> is causing the trouble-- that's easy enough to do.  it's the fact that
> after I export to jpg, the jpg disappears and I have to keep
> re-opening it.   Not good.  Yes, the original file is still there, but
> my agent does not want that one.

Ok, I better understand what you're saying.  I just went through the
process again and I think the biggest "obstacle" here is your
description of things.  Here's what I mean:  when I (or you) open the
JPEG image, it appears in the GIMP image window as an image, either in
indexed mode, grayscale mode, or RGB mode.  It's not really a "JPEG" or
"PNG" or anything, since those are image _file_ formats.   When you make
an edit on the image and you export it, the JPEG doesn't "disappear" and
the edited image still shows in the image window. It's that you want to
see the _exported_ JPEG file to confirm the export resulted in the JPEG
file you wanted to create for the client.

When I export JPEG files from GIMP, I also view them to make sure they
look good but I tend to view them outside of GIMP, since I have no need
to re-open them to make changes.  Why? Because the original image I
edited is *still* loaded in the GIMP image window, waiting for me to
either save it, as a XCF file, or to make more changes to it.

I think you're thinking you have to re-open the exported JPEG file in
GIMP to make more edits is causing some confusion.

Peace...

Tom

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Helen]

Your steps are pretty much the same as mine.  The misunderstanding Iguess
is that, after I export,  the .jpg file disappears.  Yes, the original
image is there, with all it's layers and that is good, but at this point, I
am finished with the .xcf file and I want to see the jpg.  But it is gone,
so I have to re-open it.  i may tweak it for the agent or gallery, but I
can't save it and send it to them,  because as soon as I re- opened it,  it
became .xcf again.  so I have to export again, and, again, it disappears,
so I hve to open the jpg again, and of course it reverts to ..xcf again
...   it's not the exporting that is causing the trouble-- that's easy
enough to do.  it's the fact that after I export to jpg, the jpg disappears
and I have to keep re-opening it.   Not good.  Yes, the original file is
still there, but my agent does not want that one.


On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Tom Williams  wrote:

> On 06/14/2013 08:14 PM, Helen wrote:
> > It would take too long a message to do justice to your question, but
> > a quick version goes something like
> > My agent sends a jpg of the card she plans to mail out, asking me to
> edit.
> > I edit, save to jpg becasue tha's what she wants, and it has now
> > disappeared off my screen.
> >
>
> This is truly bizarre.  I'm running GIMP 2.8.4 on Ubuntu 13.04 Linux
> (64-bit) and I just tried this and did not get the behavior you
> describe.  Here is what happened for me:
>
>  1. I open a JPEG file in GIMP
>  2. I make an edit (like erasing part of it)
>  3. I right-click on the image and click "File", then "Export" and
> export to JPEG format
>  4. I set the JPEG save options and save the file
>  5. The original image is *still* displayed and I must manually close
> the window.  When doing this, I'm prompted to save the file or not.
> After doing this (regardless of my saving or not), the image goes
> away and I'm left with the default image window with no image loaded
>
> What exact steps do you follow to save the image to JPEG format after
> making your initial edits?
>
> Peace...
>
> Tom
>
> --
> /When we dance, you have a way with me,
> Stay with me... Sway with me.../
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Daniel Hauck]

On 06/15/2013 01:53 PM, Grue wrote:
Wow, just wow. Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as 
JPEG, you lose information. It is by design a lossy image format that 
uses an algorithm to conserve your disk space via throwing away some 
"insignificant" information (which works well for photos, but ruins 
many other types of images). Worse yet, if you edit a JPEG image and 
resave it, you lose even more information. This results in very 
noticeable artifacts in the image. And GIMP actually tries to prevent 
you from this destructive workflow, yet you keep doing it anyway, and 
you're complaining about GIMP instead of your own ineptitude. Please, 
if you work with images, learn about image formats and how they work. 
The eyes of people who look at your images will thank you later. 


Well?  It seems for all the reasons this Save As... behavior has been 
established, it's not working.  Culture and expectations will out.


Personally, I have gotten used to the change.  It's still a bit of a 
"tick" with me but it reminds me the difference between a work file and 
a published output file... I remember it each and every time I edit an 
image.  However... I don't feel any more professional than I did 
before.  My workflow?  Not quite as flowing as it is in other software 
which uses a consistent behavior.  Inkscape, another program I use for 
image editing and creation, allows me to "Save as..." any supported 
image format just fine which is interesting because of the two programs, 
Inkscape would actually make more sense to have exhibit this behavior.  
And when I close the program afterward, I am prompted with:


 ''The file "drawing.png" was saved with a format 
(org.inkscape.output.svg.inkscape) that may cause data loss!  Do you 
want to save this file as Inkscape SVG? [Close without saving] [Cancel] 
[Save as SVG]''


(This sort of reminds me of "Smoking causes cancer" labels.)

The reason I say the GiMP behavior is more suited to Inkscape is that 
when using a program like Inkscape, a user is using a variety of 
primitive tools to compose an image which requires many, many steps and 
manipulations.  But also, Inkscape has export functions such as "save as 
copy" and "export bitmap."  It allows me to do what I want to do, but 
then reminds me I might be making a big mistake if close the program 
without saving in the native format.


This approach, Inkscape's that is, actually comes closer to 
accomplishing the purpose described by GiMP's developers without 
enraging the the user.


Apologies all around... I realize this is a wasted effort... I've seen 
this conversation go on multiple times and I've even started and 
participated in one myself.  But when I see an example of people doing 
what they want to do regardless of warnings and speed-bumps and 
preventative measures, it just goes to show you can't beat stupid and 
you can't force smart.   A simple warning that "you may be screwing 
something up" is probably the best approach.

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Chris Mohler]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Norbert Preining  wrote:
> These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be written with 
> the users in mind. And
> - opening a jpg file
> - editing
> - saving
> should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is what 
> practically all programs are doing, and what the user expectation, and 
> natural behaviour i

Grue beat me to this, but this doesn't work for JPEG.  If you have a
text editor, you could create a document with say 1 header and 3
paragraphs.  Then you could edit paragraph #1 a thousand times, save
each time, and your header and other paragraphs remain identical.

However if you edit a portion of a JPEG a thousand times, and "save" a
thousand times, the whole of the image is going to take some major
punishment.  In this case instead of "saving" you are really
"reencoding".  Would you consider your text document saved if random
characters were transposed throughout?

Chris
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Daniel Smith]

well, i gotta say, that were i ever to actually use the gimp in any heavy
capacity, or a company i worked at would, these "saving" lists would be
required reading due to the variety of formats/procedures detailed.
thanks, i guess.
:)
dan


On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Chris Mohler  wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Renaud  OLGIATI
>  wrote:
> >> I fail to understand why using E rather than
> >> S adds any time at all to your work.
> >
> > Not the time, but the annoyance at the stupidity of being told my file
> has not been saved, when I have just saved it back to its original format
> through Export.
>
> See, now this I don't get.  Instead of the dialog in 2.6 that was "You
> can't include layers, paths, etc. in JPEG, flatten image?", now
> there's a dialog that's "Hey you might have exported but you didn't
> save your layers, paths, etc, save them?" - and somehow this is so
> vastly different?
>
> I was against the current behavior at the beginning, but my GIMP work
> falls into one of two cases and it works out this way:
>
> 1.)  "Without a net" - destructive editing
> - I need to edit something like a 1-bit TIFF or a greyscale PNG.
> - The file is already the result of export from a complex vector file.
> - And all I really need to do is make some bits black, or some bits
> white.
> - Most of the time, I don't use layers or masks - if it's getting
> too complex I need to go back to the vector source and correct there,
> then do another export.
> - So, I open, edit, export, close the file - and then I get the
> warning, at which point I pause for a second and think: "did I add
> layers, masks, etc. that I need in case this file is a tiny bit off?".
>  99% of the time, I just close without saving - but there is that tiny
> percent left where I think "hmm... I did save that really complex
> selection that might come in handy - what the hell, I'll save it."
>
> So in case #1, it adds all of a second or maybe three to my workflow
> and I've become quite used to it. It seems the loudest complaints come
> from similar workflows - which are not part of GIMP's target.  Which
> brings me to...
>
> 2.)  "Full-on GIMP" - lossless editing
> - I'm creating a layered composition, or a background for another
> composition that is layered and/or complex.
> - So there's anything from text layers, layer masks, blending
> modes - all types of stuff that isn't going to be retained in the
> export format.
> - I work, save the file as eg "file_20130615-01.xcf".  I export in
> my target format.
> - If the final needs changes (or I've been working over an hour),
> I save as "file_20130615-02.xcf", work, save, export.
>
> Case #2 is exactly how I work with everything in Adobe CS - Photoshop,
> Illustrator, etc. already.  Except that eg Illustrator doesn't
> restrict the "clean" flag to just AI (it will treat PDF and EPS as a
> cleanly saved format), it's exactly the same behavior.  For example if
> I create a file in AI, save it, make some changes, export PNG, close
> it - it will warn me that wait for it I didn't save the
> changes in a format that will be recognized by Illustrator the next
> time I open the file.  Sounds familiar, no? ;)
>
> Since I already work this way, I never see the "you didn't save"
> dialog on these types of GIMP projects.  At least, if I'm doing it
> right that is ;)  So it adds 0 seconds to my workflow.
>
>
> I'll give you a simple example of #2: a client sends me a set of
> bracketed images of a property to combine as "HDR" (never mind that
> there are plenty of other tools, client also wants the dog poop out of
> the yard and the windows cleaned while we're at it, eh?). I'm
> certainly going to consider the file "saved" only when it retains all
> of my layers and masks, never mind if the client is only going to see
> the exported JPEG.  That way, when they come back and ask "now can we
> make the sky green?" (stranger requests have been made), it's "open,
> adjust layer, save as, export, close" instead of "open, make mask
> (again), adjust, export, close, don't save".  Which saves me time,
> which saves them money, which makes me more valuable as an asset.
>
>
> If all of your GIMP usage falls into #1, you're probably using the
> wrong tool for the job.  Either deal with the extra dialog, or deploy
> one of the various workarounds (or use another tool).  If you're in
> #2, the distinction should make no difference at all, really, unless
> you enjoy doing the same work over and over again.
>
> Chris
>
> PS - we can do without the name-calling and nation-baiting.
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Chris Mohler]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Renaud  OLGIATI
 wrote:
>> I fail to understand why using E rather than
>> S adds any time at all to your work.
>
> Not the time, but the annoyance at the stupidity of being told my file has 
> not been saved, when I have just saved it back to its original format through 
> Export.

See, now this I don't get.  Instead of the dialog in 2.6 that was "You
can't include layers, paths, etc. in JPEG, flatten image?", now
there's a dialog that's "Hey you might have exported but you didn't
save your layers, paths, etc, save them?" - and somehow this is so
vastly different?

I was against the current behavior at the beginning, but my GIMP work
falls into one of two cases and it works out this way:

1.)  "Without a net" - destructive editing
- I need to edit something like a 1-bit TIFF or a greyscale PNG.
- The file is already the result of export from a complex vector file.
- And all I really need to do is make some bits black, or some bits white.
- Most of the time, I don't use layers or masks - if it's getting
too complex I need to go back to the vector source and correct there,
then do another export.
- So, I open, edit, export, close the file - and then I get the
warning, at which point I pause for a second and think: "did I add
layers, masks, etc. that I need in case this file is a tiny bit off?".
 99% of the time, I just close without saving - but there is that tiny
percent left where I think "hmm... I did save that really complex
selection that might come in handy - what the hell, I'll save it."

So in case #1, it adds all of a second or maybe three to my workflow
and I've become quite used to it. It seems the loudest complaints come
from similar workflows - which are not part of GIMP's target.  Which
brings me to...

2.)  "Full-on GIMP" - lossless editing
- I'm creating a layered composition, or a background for another
composition that is layered and/or complex.
- So there's anything from text layers, layer masks, blending
modes - all types of stuff that isn't going to be retained in the
export format.
- I work, save the file as eg "file_20130615-01.xcf".  I export in
my target format.
- If the final needs changes (or I've been working over an hour),
I save as "file_20130615-02.xcf", work, save, export.

Case #2 is exactly how I work with everything in Adobe CS - Photoshop,
Illustrator, etc. already.  Except that eg Illustrator doesn't
restrict the "clean" flag to just AI (it will treat PDF and EPS as a
cleanly saved format), it's exactly the same behavior.  For example if
I create a file in AI, save it, make some changes, export PNG, close
it - it will warn me that wait for it I didn't save the
changes in a format that will be recognized by Illustrator the next
time I open the file.  Sounds familiar, no? ;)

Since I already work this way, I never see the "you didn't save"
dialog on these types of GIMP projects.  At least, if I'm doing it
right that is ;)  So it adds 0 seconds to my workflow.


I'll give you a simple example of #2: a client sends me a set of
bracketed images of a property to combine as "HDR" (never mind that
there are plenty of other tools, client also wants the dog poop out of
the yard and the windows cleaned while we're at it, eh?). I'm
certainly going to consider the file "saved" only when it retains all
of my layers and masks, never mind if the client is only going to see
the exported JPEG.  That way, when they come back and ask "now can we
make the sky green?" (stranger requests have been made), it's "open,
adjust layer, save as, export, close" instead of "open, make mask
(again), adjust, export, close, don't save".  Which saves me time,
which saves them money, which makes me more valuable as an asset.


If all of your GIMP usage falls into #1, you're probably using the
wrong tool for the job.  Either deal with the extra dialog, or deploy
one of the various workarounds (or use another tool).  If you're in
#2, the distinction should make no difference at all, really, unless
you enjoy doing the same work over and over again.

Chris

PS - we can do without the name-calling and nation-baiting.
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[Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Grue]

>Hi all
>
>I not often write here, but I'm a regular user of gimp. But I slowly
>get upset by some mails here
>First: I am myself developer of open source projects as well as Debian
>developer, so not some casual user.
>
>These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be
>written with the users in mind. And
>- opening a jpg file
>- editing
>- saving
>should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is
>what practically all programs are doing, and what the user
>expectation, and natural behaviour is.

I can't believe nobody's brought this up yet, but if you're doing this, you're
doing it wrong. If you think this is a valid workflow of image editing (and
anyone else who does this), then you should really educate yourself on image
formats you're using.

There's another message by Helen, where she describes something that should
strike terror into the hearts of anyone who has ever worked with image files.

>My agent sends a jpg of the card she plans to mail out, asking me to edit.
>I edit, save to jpg becasue tha's what she wants, and it has now
>disappeared off my screen.
>I open it again to make sure I am satisfied with it, mail it to her.
>She mails it back with the changes I've asked for, I review and either make
>changes or don't, and
>start the circle again (export instead of save as, it disappears, I open it
>again for review, etc.)

Wow, just wow.

Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as JPEG, you lose
information. It is by design a lossy image format that uses an algorithm to
conserve your disk space via throwing away some "insignificant" information
(which works well for photos, but ruins many other types of images). Worse yet,
if you edit a JPEG image and resave it, you lose even more information. This
results in very noticeable artifacts in the image. And GIMP actually tries to
prevent you from this destructive workflow, yet you keep doing it anyway, and
you're complaining about GIMP instead of your own ineptitude.

Please, if you work with images, learn about image formats and how they work.
The eyes of people who look at your images will thank you later.

-- 
Grue (via www.gimpusers.com/forums)
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Tom Williams]

On 06/14/2013 08:14 PM, Helen wrote:
> It would take too long a message to do justice to your question, but
> a quick version goes something like
> My agent sends a jpg of the card she plans to mail out, asking me to edit.
> I edit, save to jpg becasue tha's what she wants, and it has now
> disappeared off my screen.
>

This is truly bizarre.  I'm running GIMP 2.8.4 on Ubuntu 13.04 Linux
(64-bit) and I just tried this and did not get the behavior you
describe.  Here is what happened for me:

 1. I open a JPEG file in GIMP
 2. I make an edit (like erasing part of it)
 3. I right-click on the image and click "File", then "Export" and
export to JPEG format
 4. I set the JPEG save options and save the file
 5. The original image is *still* displayed and I must manually close
the window.  When doing this, I'm prompted to save the file or not. 
After doing this (regardless of my saving or not), the image goes
away and I'm left with the default image window with no image loaded

What exact steps do you follow to save the image to JPEG format after
making your initial edits?

Peace...

Tom

-- 
/When we dance, you have a way with me,
Stay with me... Sway with me.../
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Helen]

It would take too long a message to do justice to your question, but
a quick version goes something like
My agent sends a jpg of the card she plans to mail out, asking me to edit.
I edit, save to jpg becasue tha's what she wants, and it has now
disappeared off my screen.
I open it again to make sure I am satisfied with it, mail it to her.
She mails it back with the changes I've asked for, I review and either make
changes or don't, and
start the circle again (export instead of save as, it disappears, I open it
again for review, etc.)
Here   is a sample of what I'm talking about, a postcard announcing an
opening,  although I don't know
whether the image will show up on the gimp list.



Also, check the website for Associated Artists of NC, for Muddy River Arts,
for ... well, they all
ask for jpegs (again, I don't know why).
I like to see, to take a final look, at what I send to my agents, to juried
competitions, and to printers
and the owners of art galleries.  This new requirement that I keep
exporting and re-opening jpg files
is counterproductive, frustrating, and is an extreme increase in the time
it takes me to do my work.



On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:39 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Helen wrote:
> > Andrew & Bridget
> > A remark such as "if you don't like it, don't use it"  is rude and
> > unhelpful, and such remarks
> > should never appear on this list.   I've stayed out of the discussion of
> > this regression -- I hate the
> > change to-- but I appeal for courtesy to those who care enough to try to
> > communicate the
> > problems this is causing.  And it is causing so many problems for me that
> > I'm wondering if it's
> > going to be a game breaker.  I work with agents for my art galleries.
>  One
> > of my agents wants
> > everything sent as jpeg so I send her what she wants.   One wants .tif
> so I
> > send her what she
> > wants.  Juried exhibits ask for jpeg (I don't know why)  but this change
> > adds hours  to a job
> > that should take me half an hour.
>
> Helen,
>
> That doesn't sound right.
>
> What does workflow look like?
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
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-- 
Helen Etters
using Linux, suse12.3
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[maderios]

On 06/15/2013 04:38 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:57:57 +0200
maderios  wrote:


This strange  "save, save as" behaviour could not exist in a professional 
environment.
A professional (and many amateurs) user know he has to save his work.
I think Gimp-2.8 tries to do instead of the user that it should do himself.
It looks like an other OS (not GNU/LINUX) philosophy : anticipate the desire of 
the user.


And, worse, Tsar Alexander refuse to allow users to choose how they work.

But thanks to Akkana, resistance is not futile...

In  developers world, women are rare. Some links concerning  "Linux 
geekette"  Akkana Peck

http://www.shallowsky.com/software/
http://lanyrd.com/profile/akkakk/
http://lanyrd.com/2012/pycon/spckd/#link-hcgh
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Akkana_Peck
http://gimpbook.com/
https://plus.google.com/112662956693744460184/posts
--
Maderios


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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Richard Gitschlag]

> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 02:02:58 +0400
> From: alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com
> To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
> Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.
> 
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Psiweapon wrote:
> 
> > Excuse me, Alexandre,  but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here.
> 
> Yes, I am.
>

AND being perfectly civil at the same time. :)

As for the rest . . . well, I can sympathize that the "if you don't like it, 
don't use it" line is an almost Godwin-class argument.

(There, I said it.)

-- Stratadrake
strata_ran...@hotmail.com

Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.



  
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Richard Gitschlag]

> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:30:43 +0200
> From: schum...@gmx.de
> To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
> Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?
> 
> . . . That's not perfect yet - for example, you lose the undo history . . .

How often is Undo history ACTUALLY needed by the user, beyond fixing a 
ten-seconds-ago mistake?  I can't personally name a single application that 
stores undo history with the document's workfile; but if you can, let me know.

-- Stratadrake
strata_ran...@hotmail.com

Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.



  
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Ron]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:57:57 +0200
maderios  wrote:

> This strange  "save, save as" behaviour could not exist in a professional 
> environment.
> A professional (and many amateurs) user know he has to save his work.
> I think Gimp-2.8 tries to do instead of the user that it should do himself.
> It looks like an other OS (not GNU/LINUX) philosophy : anticipate the desire 
> of the user.

And, worse, Tsar Alexander refuse to allow users to choose how they work.

But thanks to Akkana, resistance is not futile...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
Il faut se garder de donner un nom aux choses:
 Tant qu'elles n'en ont pas, elles n'existent pas, ou elles existent à peine.
  -- Jean Dutourd

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[maderios]

On 06/15/2013 02:28 PM, Norbert Preining wrote:

Hi all

I not often write here, but I'm a regular user of gimp. But I slowly get upset 
by some mails here

First: I am myself developer of open source projects as well as Debian 
developer, so not some casual user.

These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be written with 
the users in mind. And
- opening a jpg file
- editing
- saving
should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is what 
practically all programs are doing, and what the user expectation, and natural 
behaviour is.

Of course a program does not need to follow the guide lines, but then there 
should be a clear indication that it is doing something else than the 
standard/default/expected behaviour.

It could all be easily avoided if there were two entries "save as gimp doc" and 
"save as original" and a config setting for the default shortcut binding.

I don't mind gimp devs pushing for xcf format, what I dislike is breaking of 
expected behaviour and, like above emails, ignorance of the problem.

Norbert


+10

Hi
This strange  "save, save as" behaviour could not exist in a 
professional environment.

A professional (and many amateurs) user know he has to save his work.
I think Gimp-2.8 tries to do instead of the user that it should do himself.
It looks like an other OS (not GNU/LINUX) philosophy : anticipate the 
desire of the user.

--
Maderios


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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Ron]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 08:18:37 -0500
"Joseph A. Nagy, Jr"  wrote:

> > Well, at least went metric, they didn't remain overly attached to their
> > old warty version of a measurement system :)  

> Actually they still use imperial measurements as well. The conversion 
> over to metric wasn't 100% successful from what I hear.

They still use Miles on roads, and Pints in pubs...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   Nothing is always absolutely so.
   -- Theodore Sturgeon

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Ron]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:29:37 +0100
"."  wrote:

> I fail to understand why using E rather than
> S adds any time at all to your work.

Not the time, but the annoyance at the stupidity of being told my file has not 
been saved, when I have just saved it back to its original format through 
Export.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   Nothing is always absolutely so.
   -- Theodore Sturgeon

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Joseph A. Nagy, Jr]

On 06/15/13 07:30, Ofnuts wrote:

On 06/15/2013 01:36 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:

This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are
still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication   ;-3)

Well, at least went metric, they didn't remain overly attached to their
old warty version of a measurement system :)



Actually they still use imperial measurements as well. The conversion 
over to metric wasn't 100% successful from what I hear.


--
Yours in Christ,

Joseph A Nagy Jr
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction
is stupid." -- Proverbs 12:1
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
Original content CopyFree (F) under the OWL 
http://copyfree.org/licenses/owl/license.txt

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Ofnuts]

On 06/15/2013 01:36 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:

This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still 
whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication   ;-3)
Well, at least went metric, they didn't remain overly attached to their 
old warty version of a measurement system :)

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Norbert Preining]

Hi all

I not often write here, but I'm a regular user of gimp. But I slowly get upset 
by some mails here


> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:32:45AM +0100, . wrote:
>> No less than six digests were waiting to be read this morning, almost
>> entirely cluttered with this nonsense.
>> 
>> How much do I pay for the Gimp? Nothing.
>> 
>> Am I delighted with it? Yes!
>> 
>> Does it require any effort to get used to using E and S ?
>> No - a child would make less fuss than some of the posters to this
>> group.
>> 
>> Thousands of us owe a debt of gratitude to all the developers.
>> 
>> To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.
>> 
>> Dave Russell
>> London
> ---end quoted text---
> 
> +100


First: I am myself developer of open source projects as well as Debian 
developer, so not some casual user.

These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be written with 
the users in mind. And
- opening a jpg file
- editing
- saving
should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is what 
practically all programs are doing, and what the user expectation, and natural 
behaviour is.

Of course a program does not need to follow the guide lines, but then there 
should be a clear indication that it is doing something else than the 
standard/default/expected behaviour.

It could all be easily avoided if there were two entries "save as gimp doc" and 
"save as original" and a config setting for the default shortcut binding.

I don't mind gimp devs pushing for xcf format, what I dislike is breaking of 
expected behaviour and, like above emails, ignorance of the problem.

Norbert
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Stephen Allen]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:32:45AM +0100, . wrote:
> No less than six digests were waiting to be read this morning, almost
> entirely cluttered with this nonsense.
> 
> How much do I pay for the Gimp? Nothing.
> 
> Am I delighted with it? Yes!
> 
> Does it require any effort to get used to using E and S ?
> No - a child would make less fuss than some of the posters to this
> group.
> 
> Thousands of us owe a debt of gratitude to all the developers.
> 
> To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.
> 
> Dave Russell
> London
---end quoted text---

+100

-- 
Cheers,
Stephen, Toronto
My Google+ Profile | http://goo.gl/JbQsq
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[Ron]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:32:45 +0100
"."  wrote:

> How much do I pay for the Gimp? Nothing.
> Am I delighted with it? Yes!

Glad to hear you are.
 
> Does it require any effort to get used to using E and S ?
> No - a child would make less fuss than some of the posters to this
> group.

You are missing the point here, that now if a user opens and modifies a .jpeg 
picture, Save does not replace the original with the modified picture, but 
creates a modified picture in a different format, which is contrary to all 
software practice, except in some cases (like Audacity) where Save explicitely 
saves a "Project" and not the original file. (Note to self: suggest to Tsar 
Alexander he modifies menu entry from Save to Save Project)

And GIMP recognizes the difference, since it then complains that the picture 
has not been saved if you Export (to the original formai) then attempt to close 
the program.
 
> Thousands of us owe a debt of gratitude to all the developers.

Yes we do, but we also owe it to them to give some feedback on how we feel 
about the changes they make in the app.
 
> To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.

This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still 
whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication   ;-3)
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
 Any man who hates dogs and babies can't be all bad.
   -- Leo Rosten, on W.C. Fields

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[.]

> From: Helen 

> I work with agents for my art galleries.
> One of my agents wants everything sent as jpeg
> so I send her what she wants.
> One wants .tif so I send her what she wants.
> Juried exhibits ask for jpeg (I don't know why
> but this change adds hours  to a job
> that should take me half an hour.

I fail to understand why using E rather than
S adds any time at all to your work.
What's happening in those extra hours?

Dave Russell
London
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression

[.]

No less than six digests were waiting to be read this morning, almost
entirely cluttered with this nonsense.

How much do I pay for the Gimp? Nothing.

Am I delighted with it? Yes!

Does it require any effort to get used to using E and S ?
No - a child would make less fuss than some of the posters to this
group.

Thousands of us owe a debt of gratitude to all the developers.

To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.

Dave Russell
London
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Francesco Scaglioni]

Repeat after me :

Alt-F A,  ctrl-s, ctrl-s (repeat as needed), shift-ctrl-e, close. 

Hardly rocket science and needs about 15 minutes for mucles memory to cut in. 

Jusy my 2d worth,

F xx
---

Apologies for brevity, top posting and poor citation.This email was sent from a 
mobile device.

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Michael Schumacher]

On 15.06.2013 04:34, Helen wrote:


I work with agents for my art galleries. One of my agents wants
everything sent as jpeg so I send her what she wants.   One wants
.tif so I send her what she wants.  Juried exhibits ask for jpeg (I
don't know why)


So you need multiple exports from the same image.

Export makes this easy, and helps to ensure that you still got your 
original image with layers and paths (or whatever you have used) intact.
That's not perfect yet - for example, you lose the undo history - but a 
first step in the direction of making XCF (or its successor) an even 
more integral part of the workflow.


One future addition could be the automatic export of several files from 
one image...



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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[KevinO]

On 06/14/2013 02:34 PM, Steve Kinney wrote:
> Every time people insist on cluttering the list up with weeping and
> wailing and gnashing of teeth over Save vs. Export, it is...
> 
+1

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Helen wrote:

> My agent sends a jpg of the card she plans to mail out, asking me to edit.
> I edit, save to jpg becasue tha's what she wants, and it has now disappeared
> off my screen.

Why did it disappear off your screen? Why do you reopen it?

> This new requirement that I keep exporting and re-opening jpg files

Helen, there is no such requirement. You absolutely don't need to
reopen anything.

When you export a file to JPEG from GIMP, you get the same dialog with
a checkbox that lets you preview how quality setting affects the final
image.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Helen wrote:
> Andrew & Bridget
> A remark such as "if you don't like it, don't use it"  is rude and
> unhelpful, and such remarks
> should never appear on this list.   I've stayed out of the discussion of
> this regression -- I hate the
> change to-- but I appeal for courtesy to those who care enough to try to
> communicate the
> problems this is causing.  And it is causing so many problems for me that
> I'm wondering if it's
> going to be a game breaker.  I work with agents for my art galleries.  One
> of my agents wants
> everything sent as jpeg so I send her what she wants.   One wants .tif so I
> send her what she
> wants.  Juried exhibits ask for jpeg (I don't know why)  but this change
> adds hours  to a job
> that should take me half an hour.

Helen,

That doesn't sound right.

What does workflow look like?

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Helen]

> So you're saying that thinking of The Gimp as an image editing program is
>> > wrong then, it need to be primarily regarded as a project based
>> compositing
>> > program ?
>>
>> That is what we've been saying for the past 7 years.
>>
>
> GIMP=  Gnu Image Manipulation Program.
>
> Right?
>



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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Helen]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:57 PM, Helen  wrote:

> Ron said:
> Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice, how about offering the
> user an export / save choice in the Preferences dialogues ?
>

I wish to endorse this. The export feature could have been added without
disabling the save as feature.  And I, also, have tried to go back
to gimp 2.6, but now that I have upgraded to suse 12.3,  gimp 2.6 will not
work with the latest suse gtk
Helen


>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Renaud OLGIATI <
> ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:28:31 +0200
>> "Uniklaps"  wrote:
>>
>> > When you open a jpg-file in GIMP 2.8 and make changes and save this
>> again
>> > as jpg, you cannot re-change the changes you made (if file is closed).
>> If
>> > changes are not necessary, GIMP can save as tif or jpg. (But are you
>> always
>> > sure, that your work is perfect?)
>> > Saving the jpg you worked with as an GIMP xcf-file you can open it
>> again and
>> > continue your work or go back to changes you made. With an jpg this is
>> not
>> > possible. But: You should be familiar to the GIMP - feature "layers"
>>
>> Let us put it this way: If I thought I might want to undo/modify changes
>> later, I would Save As (or Save As Copy) in .xcf; but when I load a .jpg,
>> work on it, and Save, I know that I wont be able to undo changes, and I
>> expect the saved file to replace the original one, not to have the original
>> left untouched and something completely different saved.
>>
>> Andrew & Bridget  wrote:
>>
>> > Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to,
>> doesn't make it an inferior program.
>>
>> No, but it makes it more difficult, and less appealing, to use.
>>
>> > As it has been said before if you don't like it, use something else, no
>> body makes you use GIMP.
>>
>> I like GIMP, have liked it for fourteen years; I just dont like GIMP 2.8,
>>
>> Alexandre Prokoudine  wrote:
>>
>> > > - If not, what is the latest release of GIMP that behaved in the old
>> (and intuitive) way, so I can go back to that version ?
>>
>> > 2.6.11
>>
>> I will be now be looking for the 2.6.11 package since you kindly tols me
>> it is free from that export/save sillyness.
>>
>> radar.ma...@free.fr wrote:
>>
>> > but if Gimp is made easier and safer for most of people, let's trust
>> our contributors.
>>
>> Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice, how about offering the
>> user an export / save choice in the Preferences dialogues ?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Ron.
>> --
>>Il est dangereux d'avoir raison dans des choses
>>où des hommes accrédités ont tort.
>>-- Voltaire
>>
>>-- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Helen Etters
> using Linux, suse12.3
>



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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Helen]

Andrew & Bridget
A remark such as "if you don't like it, don't use it"  is rude and
unhelpful, and such remarks
should never appear on this list.   I've stayed out of the discussion of
this regression -- I hate the
change to-- but I appeal for courtesy to those who care enough to try to
communicate the
problems this is causing.  And it is causing so many problems for me that
I'm wondering if it's
going to be a game breaker.  I work with agents for my art galleries.  One
of my agents wants
everything sent as jpeg so I send her what she wants.   One wants .tif so I
send her what she
wants.  Juried exhibits ask for jpeg (I don't know why)  but this change
adds hours  to a job
that should take me half an hour.
Helen




>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Andrew & Bridget <
> andrew_brid...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to,
>> doesn't make it an inferior program. GIMP is a very powerful Image Editing
>> program that thousands of people use day to day. For every one that states
>> in this forum that it is a regression there is probably as many that like
>> the new behavior that don't post. As it has been said before if you don't
>> like it, use something else, no body makes you use GIMP.
>>
>>
>> On 14/06/2013 17:03, Crew wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>  In case you are not just phishing (which is unlikely, as there are
 several such emails posted recently:-)

>>> Given the way Adobe are moving to a subscription model, there are going
>>> to be a lot of new users like myself seriously looking at The Gimp in
>>> future.
>>> The recent addition of colour management finally moved The Gimp into the
>>> realms of being worthy of serious consideration, but trying to make it some
>>> sort of exclusive package that works with it's own file formats is just
>>> daft.
>>> If you can drag and drop an image into the program it should by default
>>> save back to the same format. Everything other program works that way,
>>> changing that protocol is unintuitive and just daft.
>>>
>>> If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's pretty
>>> clear it's at least contentious.
>>>
>>> Do the developers of The Gimp want it to be taken seriously ?, or will
>>> they be happy just making something non-standard that will make them look
>>> foolish. As a potential new user that's how it's looking to me.
>>>
>>>  You're wrong!
>
> The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack
> of conventional Import command!
>
> The program "opens" non-native files! That should not happen! It
> should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a
> non-native format.
>

 Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP

>>> Sorry, I was mistaking The Gimp for a sensible image editing program.
>>>
>>> If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The
>>> Gimp is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals.
>>>
>>> Paul Holman
>>> www.colourprofiles.com
>>> __**_
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>>> https://mail.gnome.org/**mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-**list
>>>
>>
>> __**_
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Helen Etters
> using Linux, suse12.3
>



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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:12 AM, Crew wrote:

>> is the choice for Win/Mac and proprietary software an informed
>> one?
>
> Yes.

Wrong answer. See below.

> You might not like the information they made their choices on, but it's
> not entirely random.

Finally you made a statement that makes some sort of sense :) Again, see below.

>> In a world where people still think that GIMP is a strictly
>> multiwindow application and there's no color management on Linux, are
>> you, Paul Holman, owner (?) ofwww.colourprofiles.com, prepared to
>>
>> testify that you personally interviewed each of your clients and each
>> visitor of those said forums, and as the result of that study you
>> found out that yes indeed -- all of them are informed about their
>> options on Linux, more or less follow the progress of GIMP and
>> darktable, but simply don't find them good enough?
>>
>> A simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice.
>
> No. As I said, all I ask is what OS they use to provide installation
> instructions. That tells me what software they actually use, not why or how
> they arrived at that choice it's not relevant to the information I need.

So you don't know why they made their decisions, but you nevertheless
claim that the decisions were informed. That's pretty amazing. How can
you make this kind of statement and still feel like a rational,
intelligent human being?

Now, allow me to explain what's wrong with your approach.

There's this widely popular claim that a great product sells itself.
While there is some truth to it, in reality markets don't work like
that.

If you study some trendy market like, um, let's say, mobile apps,
you'll see that for many categories it's close to impossible to get
anywhere near TOP10 with a new product. You've got to have something
truly outstanding that goes viral. And you have to be able to maintain
public's interest -- that's an important bit, you'll see in a while.

If you study the online advertizing market (which is my professional
background), you'll see pretty much the same picture: you can't
suddenly become competitive against e.g. big retailers. You need to
find a different way to get to your audience, and it still takes time,
money, and human resources.

But let's get back to our niche. Case in point: there's a number of
advanced image editors like Photoline (http://www.pl32.com/) that have
all those fancy things like high bit depth precision, CMYK, vector
layers and suchlike. But they never have a wide adoption. Why?

- Is that software unusable?
- Maybe more expensive than Photoshop?
- Or the developers are so arrogant that they annoy their users? :)

Nope. While features, social aptness etc. have a share in the general
effect, at some point it's marketing that becomes decisive.

Here's an example:

http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=mypaint#q=mypaint&cmpt=q

See that first spike around August 2009 after which the public's
interest towards that free painting application started rapidly
growing? Here's the reason:

http://www.sintel.org/videos/tutorial-painting-time-lapse-by-david-revoy/

Blender Foundation's open movie projects typically draw a lot of
interest, so the video demonstrating MyPaint (used along with Alchemy
and GIMP) went viral.

Take another look at that graph. You'll see another huge spike in
Nov-Dec 2011. Here's the reason:

http://mypaint.intilinux.com/?p=621

v1.0 releases are traditionaly regarded as a symbol of software
becoming mature. So MyPaint 1.0 got quite a few coverages online which
ensured that interest spike. Not mentioning a bunch of useful features
in that release.

Now, why are those spikes so spiky? Why is all that interest so rapidly lost?

Is MyPaint a horrible software, and the interest is accidental with a
bit of vapourware flavour? No, people make quite amazing artworks with
MyPaint, and it doesn't more time than in, er, conventional software.
So how come?

The reason is that the community isn't yet capable of producing those
amazing artworks _every day_ in an amount that would stand anywhere
close to the amount of artworks people create with Photoshop or Corel
Painter.

Free software projects do not have huge marketing teams (up to 50% of
employees in some cases, I'm not kidding you). They don't have the
funds to hire artists, do roadshows etc. Bottomline: they cannot
ensure stable visibility online.

A huge percent of Blender's success can be attributed to websites like
blendernation.com, blenderguru.com and blendercookie.com whose
maintainers had either the guts or the funds to maintain that interest
towards the software. And yet there's still plenty of 3D artists who
never even tried Blender, while having heard all sorts of good things
about that. A lot of those people only found out about it, because
websites like 3DMag occasionally post artworks made with Blender --
like 4-5 times a year.

Still with me? (I'd be surprised, but stranger things happen.)

I spend up to 20 hours weekly just looking through artworks people do
with 

Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Kasim Ahmic]

Like Tom, the change from Save to Export was a bit of a surprise to me as well. 
Over time, I got used to it. Once you think about it, it actually makes more 
sense to use this method than it does the previous method.

Just my two cents :)


p.s. People should really stop arguing about this. It has been discussed many 
times before, and has always yielded the same outcome; the change will remain 
and you'll just have to get used to it. 

Sent from my iPod

On Jun 14, 2013, at 6:38 PM, Tom Williams  wrote:

> On 06/14/2013 02:47 PM, Eduard Braun wrote:
>> Actually I know nobody who likes the new distinction between save and
>> export.
>> 
>> But the whole discussion seems to be at a point of no return anyway
>> and developers seem to defend the change as a matter of principle
>> rather than aiming for maximum usability, so it seems quite improbable
>> anything will change.
> 
> Hey Eduard, I'm Tom and it's a pleasure to meet you!  :)
> 
> I've been a long time GIMP user and the new save/export behavior was a
> surprise to me as well, but I actually like the new behavior since I
> tend to save in XCF format more frequently, which prevents me from
> making accidental mistakes.  In the past, I would open an image file,
> forget to save it as a XCF file first, make some changes to it, save the
> file (either clobbering the original or saving it as a new file), and
> then later regret NOT saving to XCF format because I would want to make
> further modifications later or to find out which font I had used, if I
> added text, etc.
> 
> The new behavior forces me to be more conscious about my saving action,
> which I think is a good thing.  I also agree with adding a setting to
> control the save behavior, so users can choose which method suits them best.
> 
> With regard to all the discussion about "Linux" in all this, we can't
> forget the numbers of people who use GIMP on Windows and the "Freedom of
> Linux" doesn't relate to that platform. 
> 
> As for Audacity, I'm running Audacity 2.0.3 on Ubuntu 13.04 Linux
> (64-bit) right now. I have a MP3 audio file loaded and when I click the
> "File" menu, the save options are "Save Project", "Save Project As", and
> "Save Compressed Copy of Project".  Then, I have two Export options,
> "Export" and "Export Multiple".  I made a change to the audio track and
> tried to close Audacity and it prompted me to save the project (.AUP)
> file and stated if I wanted to save in another audio format, I must use
> the "File > Export" function.  Maybe Audacity on Windows behaves
> differently.
> 
> Peace...
> 
> Tom
> 
> -- 
> /When we dance, you have a way with me,
> Stay with me... Sway with me.../
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Tom Williams]

On 06/14/2013 02:47 PM, Eduard Braun wrote:
> Actually I know nobody who likes the new distinction between save and
> export.
>
> But the whole discussion seems to be at a point of no return anyway
> and developers seem to defend the change as a matter of principle
> rather than aiming for maximum usability, so it seems quite improbable
> anything will change.

Hey Eduard, I'm Tom and it's a pleasure to meet you!  :)

I've been a long time GIMP user and the new save/export behavior was a
surprise to me as well, but I actually like the new behavior since I
tend to save in XCF format more frequently, which prevents me from
making accidental mistakes.  In the past, I would open an image file,
forget to save it as a XCF file first, make some changes to it, save the
file (either clobbering the original or saving it as a new file), and
then later regret NOT saving to XCF format because I would want to make
further modifications later or to find out which font I had used, if I
added text, etc.

The new behavior forces me to be more conscious about my saving action,
which I think is a good thing.  I also agree with adding a setting to
control the save behavior, so users can choose which method suits them best.

With regard to all the discussion about "Linux" in all this, we can't
forget the numbers of people who use GIMP on Windows and the "Freedom of
Linux" doesn't relate to that platform. 

As for Audacity, I'm running Audacity 2.0.3 on Ubuntu 13.04 Linux
(64-bit) right now. I have a MP3 audio file loaded and when I click the
"File" menu, the save options are "Save Project", "Save Project As", and
"Save Compressed Copy of Project".  Then, I have two Export options,
"Export" and "Export Multiple".  I made a change to the audio track and
tried to close Audacity and it prompted me to save the project (.AUP)
file and stated if I wanted to save in another audio format, I must use
the "File > Export" function.  Maybe Audacity on Windows behaves
differently.

Peace...

Tom

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Stay with me... Sway with me.../
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Psiweapon]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Psiweapon wrote:
>
> >> > I'm not saying this guy is right, but your "holier than thou"
> attitude is
> >> > corrosive and self-satisfied.
> >>
> >> Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that.
> >>
> >>
> > Are you sure? I'm not saying you're not, but you'd need *his *credentials
> > too to prove that.
>
> Yeah, I'm working on that :)
>


Now that sounds horribly underhanded.


>
> > Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than
> > you is still corrosive and self-satisfied.
>
> You see, I never claimed to be a good person. I'm not even remotely
> interested in looking like one.
>
>
Your lack of interest and claim on the issue doesn't make it any less of a
shortcoming.


Hey, wait. I *am* acting holier than thou. My apologies :X


So. You only take feedback from the elite? Honest question.


I can understand that the extent of the *undying backlash* is probably a
pain in the ass,
although I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if it was completely beneath you...

You just come across as some sort of self-appointed boyar, which I'd expect
from a
mainstream software corporate honcho - not from an open software big fish.


*"It's too bad I can't force quit a list thread like I can processes.  At
any
rate this discussion is stale.  Quit the whimpering and Alexandre enough of
the attitude."*

Okay. I'll shut up now.



> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
>
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Sam Gleske]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than
> > you is still corrosive and self-satisfied.
>
> You see, I never claimed to be a good person. I'm not even remotely
> interested in looking like one.
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
>

It's too bad I can't force quit a list thread like I can processes.  At any
rate this discussion is stale.  Quit the whimpering and Alexandre enough of
the attitude.

SAM
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Psiweapon wrote:

>> > I'm not saying this guy is right, but your "holier than thou" attitude is
>> > corrosive and self-satisfied.
>>
>> Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that.
>>
>>
> Are you sure? I'm not saying you're not, but you'd need *his *credentials
> too to prove that.

Yeah, I'm working on that :)

> Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than
> you is still corrosive and self-satisfied.

You see, I never claimed to be a good person. I'm not even remotely
interested in looking like one.

Alexandre Prokoudine
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Psiweapon]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Psiweapon wrote:
>
> > Excuse me, Alexandre,  but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here.
>
> Yes, I am.
>
> > I'm not saying this guy is right, but your "holier than thou" attitude is
> > corrosive and self-satisfied.
>
> Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that.
>
>
Are you sure? I'm not saying you're not, but you'd need *his *credentials
too to prove that.

Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than
you is still corrosive and self-satisfied.


> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Psiweapon wrote:

> Excuse me, Alexandre,  but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here.

Yes, I am.

> I'm not saying this guy is right, but your "holier than thou" attitude is
> corrosive and self-satisfied.

Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that.

Alexandre Prokoudine
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Psiweapon]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Crew wrote:
> > On 14/06/2013 19:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> >>
> >> As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey,
> >> I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong:)
> >
> >
> > Right I see now.
> > "I write for Linux I don't need to conform to user requirements, I know
> > better"
>
> You are not users, Paul. You are a user. Singular noun, not a plural noun.
>


Excuse me, Alexandre,  but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here.

No matter how big your love for the project, swashbuckling rethoric, and
your own ego,
saying "You're just an user, not users" when people disagree with you by
the bucketload,
dismissing someone because "oh you're just one!" is called BEING ARROGANT.

ARROGANT.

ARROGANT.

ARROGANT.

I know typing it three more times won't allow you to wrap your head around
it, but what
the hell.

I'm not saying this guy is right, but your "holier than thou" attitude is
corrosive and self-satisfied.

You probably think it's charismatic or something.
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Eduard Braun]

Actually I know nobody who likes the new distinction between save and 
export.


But the whole discussion seems to be at a point of no return anyway and 
developers seem to defend the change as a matter of principle rather 
than aiming for maximum usability, so it seems quite improbable anything 
will change.

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Steve Kinney]

Every time people insist on cluttering the list up with weeping and
wailing and gnashing of teeth over Save vs. Export, it is...

A Sad Case Of Regression

:o/

Steve


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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Crew]

On 14/06/2013 21:51, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

is the choice for Win/Mac and proprietary software an informed
one?
Yes. You might not like the information they made their choices on, but 
it's not entirely random.

In a world where people still think that GIMP is a strictly
multiwindow application and there's no color management on Linux, are
you, Paul Holman, owner (?) ofwww.colourprofiles.com, prepared to
testify that you personally interviewed each of your clients and each
visitor of those said forums, and as the result of that study you
found out that yes indeed -- all of them are informed about their
options on Linux, more or less follow the progress of GIMP and
darktable, but simply don't find them good enough?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice.


No. As I said, all I ask is what OS they use to provide installation 
instructions. That tells me what software they actually use, not why or 
how they arrived at that choice it's not relevant to the information I need.

The information is simple and accurate.

That you ask such a preposterous question says all I need to know about 
your approach, but doesn't change the underlying truth that hardly any 
photographers use Linux.

Sorry if you don't like that, but that's the way it is.

Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com


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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Crew wrote:

>>> The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been
>>> >nothing credible for them.
>>
>> It's amazing that there are people who actually believe that.
>
> Why would you believe anything else ?

Because I have a brain and I happen to use it for its primary function
which is thinking.

Consider this statement of yours:

> That sort of proportion is in keeping with what people are using on the big
> photo forums like Luminous Landscape, Fred Miranda, DPReview etc.

Now, the first thing a person of an analytical persuasion would ask
is: is the choice for Win/Mac and proprietary software an informed
one?

In a world where people still think that GIMP is a strictly
multiwindow application and there's no color management on Linux, are
you, Paul Holman, owner (?) of www.colourprofiles.com, prepared to
testify that you personally interviewed each of your clients and each
visitor of those said forums, and as the result of that study you
found out that yes indeed -- all of them are informed about their
options on Linux, more or less follow the progress of GIMP and
darktable, but simply don't find them good enough?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Crew]

On 14/06/2013 19:47, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been
>nothing credible for them.

It's amazing that there are people who actually believe that.


Why would you believe anything else ? Do you see any support from the 
likes of Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax etc ?


You might notice from my signature that I run a printer profiling 
business. Over the last ten years we've built profiles for thousands of 
photographers and design companies. Throughout that time we've kept 
records of OS use to provide usage instructions. In all that time it's 
worked out at roughly a third use Macs, two thirds use Windows and just 
one person used Linux.
That sort of proportion is in keeping with what people are using on the 
big photo forums like Luminous Landscape, Fred Miranda, DPReview etc.
Linux is fine for some applications, but for photography ? it's made no 
significant impact.


It's great that The Gimp has been ported to Windows, but in order for it 
to be taken seriously it has to develop and work in a sensible way.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Joseph A. Nagy, Jr
 wrote:

> You must not use Audacity, then.

Yeah, well, you know how it is... I actually use Ardour for my audio
stuff. That's basically the reason I quitted the Audacity team a few
years ago after having been part of it for, ugh, 8 years? Something
like that, yes. But hey, I'm open to all new information about the
project's evolution.

So they merged saving and exporting?

> I happen to use it on a regular basis. All
> the project file does is point to all the wav's it creates as it records.
> Delete those wav's you lose your project. The .aup is just an xml file.

No, they didn't after all :)

You comment is rather irrelevant to the dicussion. Let me explain you why.

The controversy is about the fact that GIMP v2.8 doesn't allow to save
stuff back directly into the original PNG/JPEG/TIFF/whatever file and
only saves to XCF which is project data.

In terms of Audacity that would be like complaining that Audacity can
open MP3, but cannot save it back directly. Which is exactly what it
does: it tells you to export your stuff. That its project file is
XML-based is simply not the point.

And trust me, Audacity team used to be sweared at for this design
decision. With F-word, M-word, and an exciting variety of A-words.

Alexandre Prokoudine
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Joseph A. Nagy, Jr]

Meant to send to list the first time, more non-standard behavior.

On 06/14/13 13:43, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Joseph A. Nagy, Jr wrote:


Agreed 100%, also do not know why Audacity is in there. I expect audio to be
saved in Audacity in wav file format (which is what it does)


Which is what it does not. Audacity famously saves only project data
and exports everything else. And yes, that includes WAV.

Alexandre Prokoudine
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You must not use Audacity, then. I happen to use it on a regular basis. 
All the project file does is point to all the wav's it creates as it 
records. Delete those wav's you lose your project. The .aup is just an 
xml file.


Care to try again?

--
Yours in Christ,

Joseph A Nagy Jr
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction
is stupid." -- Proverbs 12:1
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Crew wrote:
> On 14/06/2013 19:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>>
>> As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey,
>> I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong:)
>
>
> Right I see now.
> "I write for Linux I don't need to conform to user requirements, I know
> better"

You are not users, Paul. You are a user. Singular noun, not a plural noun.

Besides, you conveniently ignored the part where I list the kind of
pro users who love the new behaviour. Of course, they don't support
your opinion, so they should be dismissed. Is that what's happening?
You tell me :)

> The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been
> nothing credible for them.

It's amazing that there are people who actually believe that. What's
next? "Great product doesn't need advertizing"?

There are all sorts of reasons the vast majority of anybody doesn't do
something. Picking one single reason and claiming it's _the_ reason is
an insult to intelligence.

> I'd seriously thought that as colour management had finally arrived in The
> Gimp things might be changing, but I guess I was wrong.

Color management arrived to GIMP in v2.4 that was released years and years ago.

Alexandre Prokoudine
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Joseph A. Nagy, Jr wrote:

> Agreed 100%, also do not know why Audacity is in there. I expect audio to be
> saved in Audacity in wav file format (which is what it does)

Which is what it does not. Audacity famously saves only project data
and exports everything else. And yes, that includes WAV.

Alexandre Prokoudine
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Joseph A. Nagy, Jr]

On 06/14/13 12:46, Crew wrote:

You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have


Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as
they are all project based programs that work on the expectation of
combining multiple files and outputting in a different format. A very
different case.

Care to give any examples of the genre of image editing programs that
insist on defaulting to working on intermediate formats ?

Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong
and return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the
expectations of it's users.

Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Agreed 100%, also do not know why Audacity is in there. I expect audio 
to be saved in Audacity in wav file format (which is what it does), with 
a project file in some Audacity-specific format (which it does) and then 
when I'm done on the project, to export it to something other than wav 
(which I knew it would be in to start with). Totally different 
expectations then we have had for GIMP for over 10 years now. I'm 
getting used to the change, but I still do not like it one bit and it is 
still an interruption to the normal flow of work (open, edit, save, 
close, done). Now it's Open/import, edit, export, make sure image 
actually saved, close - dismissing any useless dialogue boxes because 
GIMP now works differently then it has for 10 years.


--
Yours in Christ,

Joseph A Nagy Jr
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction
is stupid." -- Proverbs 12:1
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Crew]

As for programs that work on intermediate formats, I think every other 
program do this, even photoshop (remember psd). 


No it doesn't.
Open a tif, change it, hit Ctrl/cmd+S (the standard save command) as it 
just saves it with the changes.

It's what people expect to happen.

Paul Holman
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Crew]

On 14/06/2013 19:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey,
I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong:)


Right I see now.
"I write for Linux I don't need to conform to user requirements, I know 
better"


The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been 
nothing credible for them.
I'd seriously thought that as colour management had finally arrived in 
The Gimp things might be changing, but I guess I was wrong.
With attitudes like the above it's going to remain a lost cause for 
years yet.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Crew wrote:
>> you mean compared to a project based image manipulation program, which
>> works on the expectation of combining/editing multiple images and
>> outputting in different image formats?
>
>
> So you're saying that thinking of The Gimp as an image editing program is
> wrong then, it need to be primarily regarded as a project based compositing
> program ?

That is what we've been saying for the past 7 years.

> Not sure people coming to it fresh will see it that way.

And there are probably better ways to deal with that.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:14 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
 wrote:

> There reason the team doesn't provide a setting for that is because
> it's a behaviour change. Which is widely regarded by usability
> engineers as a sure pathway to hell.

(That is, the setting for behaviour change :))

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Renaud  OLGIATI wrote:

>> > how about offering the user an export / save choice in the Preferences 
>> > dialogues ?
>
>> As already discussed before, the answer is 'no'.
>
> Why not ?
>
> Do I sense here a case of the Microsoft delusion ? ("We are Gimp of Borg, 
> resistance is futile...")

Sorry, but I'm not in a position to explain your senses. There are
professionals that do that kind of job for a wide range of fee, as I'm
told.

There reason the team doesn't provide a setting for that is because
it's a behaviour change. Which is widely regarded by usability
engineers as a sure pathway to hell.

> PS Could anyone kindly point me in the direction of a repository for a Debian 
> amd64 gimp 2.6.12 deb file ?

http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/gimp

Alexandre Prokoudine
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Crew]

you mean compared to a project based image manipulation program, which
works on the expectation of combining/editing multiple images and
outputting in different image formats?


So you're saying that thinking of The Gimp as an image editing program 
is wrong then, it need to be primarily regarded as a project based 
compositing program ?


Not sure people coming to it fresh will see it that way.

Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Crew  wrote:

Welcome to Prokoudine' Friday night tour to GIMP, the image editing
application that mends broken hearts.

>> You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
>> Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have
>
>
> Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as they
> are all project based programs

So is GIMP. You probably haven't noticed, but it has layers, layer
groups and masks. This is called compositing which is, essentially,
project based. As the rule. Anywhere.

> that work on the expectation of combining multiple files

So does GIMP. The new image processing core makes it possible to do
stuff like hotlinking external bitmaps and SVG files. That's the
future. And in both past and present GIMP has that thing called "Open
As Layer". You might find it useful, although you are probably used to
just dropping files on the canvas from your file manager of choice.

> and outputting in a different format

So does GIMP. Drop PNG in, export JPEG. Drop SVG in, export TIFF. Just
earlier today at work I had to cut/scale/refine a bunch of JPEGs out
of a PDF file. That's outputting different format, all right.

> Care to give any examples of the genre of image editing programs that insist
> on defaulting to working on intermediate formats ?

As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey,
I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong :)

> Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong and
> return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the expectations of
> it's users.

And you are exactly the person to judge what users expect, aren't you? :)

Let me see.

- Filmmakers tell me the new behaviour works great for them and
matches their expectations.
- 3D artists who produce textures with GIMP tell me the new behaviour
is awesome and even want us to take it further.
- Designers tell me they just love it (admittedly, not all of them).

But what do they know, right? :)

I can see how this is going to become yet another boring thread on a
tired subject. Please don't count me in.

Alexandre Prokoudine
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Ron]

On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 21:43:17 +0400
Alexandre Prokoudine  wrote:

> > how about offering the user an export / save choice in the Preferences 
> > dialogues ?  

> As already discussed before, the answer is 'no'.

Why not ? 

Do I sense here a case of the Microsoft delusion ? ("We are Gimp of Borg, 
resistance is futile...")
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.

PS Could anyone kindly point me in the direction of a repository for a Debian 
amd64 gimp 2.6.12 deb file ?
All my search result have sent me to a gimp.org page that says "This page is 
obsolete, please see the downloads page. "
-- 
A drama critic is a person who surprises a playwright
   by informing him what he meant.
 -- Wilson Mizner

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Simon Budig]

Crew (p...@wideshots.co.uk) wrote:
> >You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
> >Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have
> 
> Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous
> as they are all project based programs that work on the expectation
> of combining multiple files and outputting in a different format. A
> very different case.

you mean compared to a project based image manipulation program, which
works on the expectation of combining/editing multiple images and
outputting in different image formats?

Very different indeed  :)

Bye,
Simon
-- 
  si...@budig.de  http://simon.budig.de/
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

[Crew]

You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have


Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as 
they are all project based programs that work on the expectation of 
combining multiple files and outputting in a different format. A very 
different case.


Care to give any examples of the genre of image editing programs that 
insist on defaulting to working on intermediate formats ?


Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong 
and return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the 
expectations of it's users.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Renaud  OLGIATI wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:28:31 +0200

> Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice

It's just a kernel. Software neither feels, nor judges, nor favours.

> how about offering the user an export / save choice in the Preferences 
> dialogues ?

As already discussed before, the answer is 'no'.

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http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Ron]

On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:28:31 +0200
"Uniklaps"  wrote:

> When you open a jpg-file in GIMP 2.8 and make changes and save this again
> as jpg, you cannot re-change the changes you made (if file is closed). If
> changes are not necessary, GIMP can save as tif or jpg. (But are you always
> sure, that your work is perfect?)
> Saving the jpg you worked with as an GIMP xcf-file you can open it again and
> continue your work or go back to changes you made. With an jpg this is not
> possible. But: You should be familiar to the GIMP - feature "layers" 

Let us put it this way: If I thought I might want to undo/modify changes later, 
I would Save As (or Save As Copy) in .xcf; but when I load a .jpg, work on it, 
and Save, I know that I wont be able to undo changes, and I expect the saved 
file to replace the original one, not to have the original left untouched and 
something completely different saved.

Andrew & Bridget  wrote:

> Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to, doesn't 
> make it an inferior program. 

No, but it makes it more difficult, and less appealing, to use.

> As it has been said before if you don't like it, use something else, no body 
> makes you use GIMP.

I like GIMP, have liked it for fourteen years; I just dont like GIMP 2.8, 

Alexandre Prokoudine  wrote:

> > - If not, what is the latest release of GIMP that behaved in the old (and 
> > intuitive) way, so I can go back to that version ?
 
> 2.6.11

I will be now be looking for the 2.6.11 package since you kindly tols me it is 
free from that export/save sillyness.

radar.ma...@free.fr wrote:

> but if Gimp is made easier and safer for most of people, let's trust our 
> contributors.

Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice, how about offering the user 
an export / save choice in the Preferences dialogues ?

Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   Il est dangereux d'avoir raison dans des choses
   où des hommes accrédités ont tort. 
   -- Voltaire

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Crew wrote:

> If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's pretty
> clear it's at least contentious.

There's that old war trick: crawl towards the opposing army in the
dark and make as much noise as possible like there's an army of you.

I'm sorry you had to crawl, but the noise isn't fooling me. A lot of
people are happy with 2.8, the user base is growing. If you are not
one of them, it's a pity, but stuff like that happens everywhere, all
the time, to all sort of projects.

> If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The Gimp
> is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals.

Oh, there are many reasons imaging professionals regard GIMP poorly.
Would you like to discuss all of them? :)

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Andrew & Bridget wrote:
> Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to,
> doesn't make it an inferior program. GIMP is a very powerful Image Editing
> program that thousands of people use day to day. For every one that states
> in this forum that it is a regression there is probably as many that like
> the new behavior that don't post. As it has been said before if you don't
> like it, use something else, no body makes you use GIMP.

Actually, at this point GIMP branded handcuffs that would have
"export" engraved all over them could generate quite a lot of income
for the project.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Crew wrote:

> I don't know any other program that works in such a non-standard way.

You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have :)

> There's been some good work done to improve this program in the recent past,
> but if the developers want The Gimp to be taken seriously they need to
> address such silliness as this URGENTLY.

The answer is still no, no matter how many CAPS you use.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Andrew & Bridget]

Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to, 
doesn't make it an inferior program. GIMP is a very powerful Image 
Editing program that thousands of people use day to day. For every one 
that states in this forum that it is a regression there is probably as 
many that like the new behavior that don't post. As it has been said 
before if you don't like it, use something else, no body makes you use GIMP.



On 14/06/2013 17:03, Crew wrote:



In case you are not just phishing (which is unlikely, as there are
several such emails posted recently:-)
Given the way Adobe are moving to a subscription model, there are 
going to be a lot of new users like myself seriously looking at The 
Gimp in future.
The recent addition of colour management finally moved The Gimp into 
the realms of being worthy of serious consideration, but trying to 
make it some sort of exclusive package that works with it's own file 
formats is just daft.
If you can drag and drop an image into the program it should by 
default save back to the same format. Everything other program works 
that way, changing that protocol is unintuitive and just daft.


If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's 
pretty clear it's at least contentious.


Do the developers of The Gimp want it to be taken seriously ?, or will 
they be happy just making something non-standard that will make them 
look foolish. As a potential new user that's how it's looking to me.



You're wrong!

The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack
of conventional Import command!

The program "opens" non-native files! That should not happen! It
should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a
non-native format.


Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP

Sorry, I was mistaking The Gimp for a sensible image editing program.

If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The 
Gimp is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Crew]

In case you are not just phishing (which is unlikely, as there are
several such emails posted recently:-)
Given the way Adobe are moving to a subscription model, there are going 
to be a lot of new users like myself seriously looking at The Gimp in 
future.
The recent addition of colour management finally moved The Gimp into the 
realms of being worthy of serious consideration, but trying to make it 
some sort of exclusive package that works with it's own file formats is 
just daft.
If you can drag and drop an image into the program it should by default 
save back to the same format. Everything other program works that way, 
changing that protocol is unintuitive and just daft.


If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's pretty 
clear it's at least contentious.


Do the developers of The Gimp want it to be taken seriously ?, or will 
they be happy just making something non-standard that will make them 
look foolish. As a potential new user that's how it's looking to me.



You're wrong!

The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack
of conventional Import command!

The program "opens" non-native files! That should not happen! It
should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a
non-native format.


Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP

Sorry, I was mistaking The Gimp for a sensible image editing program.

If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The 
Gimp is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

[Greg Chapman]

Hi Crew,

On 14 Jun 13 16:08 Crew  said:
> As a potential new user to The Gimp, I've found the lack of a 
> conventional save command to be TERRIBLE.

You're wrong!

The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack 
of conventional Import command!

The program "opens" non-native files! That should not happen! It 
should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a
non-native format.

Greg Chapman
http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP
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