RE: [ZION] Announcement

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: September 21, 2002 7:33 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [ZION] Announcement
> 
> Congratulations, President Matkin.  Things will never be
> the same again.
> 

Thanks for your warning.  On the afternoon I received my call I went
home to tell my family.  I went into my 9 year old son's room where he
was busy reading a book.  I solemnly told him that I had just been
called by Elder Hafen to serve as the new stake president.  He glanced
up in mild annoyance at having been distracted from his book and gave me
an affectionate smile that was at once approval and dismissal.

I said. "Do you know what a stake president is?"

"No." he said, and went back to his book, and I left him to it.

I'm finding that for a lot of people (children in particular, but many
adults as well) the stake president is just a remote concept.  And, I
guess, it's a happier world that they live in for it. 

Still, if it's not relevant to many, there are a few of us who have been
mightily affected by this change in assignments.  I went from assistant
ward choir leader, seminary teacher, and temple worker to stake
president in an instant, and the man I replaced is now the scout leader
in his ward. It had not escaped my notice that the ward choir leader,
some years ago, had been Relief Society President when I (now her
assistant) was the Bishop.  Somehow that change in our respective
assignments was heart warming to me. Here we were both faithfully doing
what we could in whatever call we were given. 

A lot of people have expressed condolences to me about the expected
length of time for service (9 or 10 years) and the amount of time
required. My response to this, (mostly in my own mind because I usually
just smile and shake their hands when they make these comments) is that
I hope to live for much longer than 9 or 10 more years and I expect to
be doing church work all the rest of my life, so what's the difference
if I do this or something else? It's who you serve that really matters,
not what you do.  On the matter of the day to day time commitment, I
think it's hard to spend more time than a combined seminary teacher and
temple worker.  There are only so many hours in a day I was already
using them all, so I guess I'll continue to do that. 

The job does have its perks.  For example, lots of exposure to the
brethren. Perhaps a mixed blessing, you might say, but still a blessing.
My direct reporting line is through the North American Central Area
Presidency, and I'm getting to know the members of the presidency and
the Area Authority Seventies assigned to my particular region. Most of
the Area Authority Seventies I'm dealing with are guys I knew well back
in my university days.  Old friends really - who made good.  

Also, I love to teach.  I really should have been a University Prof
instead of a small-time lawyer, but I had a work to do in this small
town, so the Lord found a way for me to do His will and scratch my
teaching itch at the same time.  We launched a new elder's quorum
presidency last night and before setting them apart I spent about an
hour teaching them how to be shepherds of their flock and how to conduct
PPI's so as to effectively use the sacred priesthood keys they were
about to receive.  I'm a little green at my job, of course, but I'll get
better and it has endless possibilities to teach.  I've spoken in a
different sacrament meeting and priesthood meeting every Sunday since my
call. These are just opportunities to do what I enjoy doing. Teaching
the gospel.  Seminary was good for that, but I enjoy teaching adults
too, so this is fine. 

I have learned a lot on the Internet in the past several years, and this
list has had no small role to play in exposing me to different ideas and
people. Living in the bottom of a sack, as I do, in this small town
nestled against an expansive mountain wilderness where we don't even
enjoy Greyhound bus service I had longed, at times, for some greater
interactions.  The Internet has been the answer to these yearnings, and
the Zion list has been an important, if sometime turbulent, focus for my
forays into the greater outside world.  Well I expect that my new
calling will provide an adequate expression for most of my creative
energy and for the need to reach out to others.  Also it is wholly
inappropriate for a stake president (or perhaps anyone else ;->) to be
engaged in some of the all out rough and tumble exchanges the have
sometime characterized my participation here.  I expect to hang
around,(after all, we are great friends aren't we? And one doesn't just
quit his friends because he's busy in the church,) but I'll be holding a
very tight rein on the "send" button. 

Tom






> Larry Jackson
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> ___
> 
> Marc Schindler:
> 
> In today's Church News:
> 
> New Stake Presidencies
> 
> CARDSTON ALBERTA STAKE: (Aug. 18, 2002)
> President - Thomas M. Matkin, 

RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art

[Tom Matkin]

Mark Gregson wrote:
> 
> >  I found Eric 
> > Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected 
> > as 
> > he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange 
> > than 
> > for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John 
> > Pratt 
> > is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the 
> > "Feast 
> > of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it:
> > 
> > 
> > There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on 
> > authentic
> > Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to
> > events of the restoration of the Gospel.  
> 
> Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre.  Why the heck would 
> anyone want to present "information" in that style? (you can't use the 
> temple as a reason because it is real and authorized).
> 

I think that Samuelson's gnostic reference is sadly pretty much bang on. 


I have read a lot of Samuelson's comments on AML over the years, 
although I haven't been there for some months now, maybe even a year or 
two, but he probably hasn't changed much.  He's playwright and a lot 
more liberal minded than the typical ZION lister for sure (isn't 
everybody?) but he is a prof at BYU and he even writes some of the 
"spoken word" commentaries for the MTC broadcasts, so he does know 
better ;->. He can be an irreverant satirist at times. Maybe even most 
of the time.  And he's perceptive.  His remark about "Yo HO that I Were 
an Angel" was seen by me in that vein, as a comment on the possibility 
that the rather contrived first two notes of that song,  sliding from oh 
up to OH, (is that a full fifth of an octave?) can be quite difficult to 
accomplish artfully and if you aren't careful you end up sounding like a 
pirate's Yo HO.  He may have just spoiled the song for me forever, which 
is the ultimate compliment you can pay to a satirist.

Actually he seemed to be pretty mild about Pratt's performance.  Perhaps 
in deference to his Sister in Law or whoever it was in his family who 
seems to becoming a fellow travellor. But more than likely he just 
figured the thing spoke for itself.  How do you satirize something 
that's already so far over the top?

I have to confess that my mind was drawn to the wonderful Isaiah passage 
about "wizards who peep and mutter" as I read the review.
"To the law and to the prophets" is where we should turn, as we are 
sternly reminded by Isaiah, not to people who claim the right to 
instruct us in things of God because of special insight.  Interestingly 
Isaiah says of such people that there "no light in them." I understand 
that Pratt has been published in the Ensign and that tells me that he 
should know better too. If part of Pratt's ritual caused Samuelson to 
become uncomfortable about temple parody then it must have been 
amazingly inappropriate.  Samuelson would not blush easily.

The Isaiah reference can be found at 2 Nephi 18: 19-20

> I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if 
> exposed to this "program".  
> 

My ears were ringing. And not with the sound of trumpets!

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Bunny Boots and Mukluks

[Tom Matkin]

Cousin Bill wrote:
> Do you know of a store that will sell and ship overseas (like, say, to
> Japan)?  I lost my good pair of boots to a septic tank accident and 
> haven't
> been able to find any since.

As the chair of the Alberta Chapter of VOSSSI* I feel your pain.  While 
my own life has been touched by incidents of this nature, I am at least 
still able to use my mukluks without fear of reprisals or disease.  So 
many like yourself are not.  It is brave for you, now, to reach out and 
seek a new pair of boots. I’m sure you will be able to get on your life 
and leave this incident behind you.  Perhaps you could still be helped 
by exposure to our famous VOSSSI 10 step  recovery program which we 
affectionately refer to as “Deep Doodoo”.

1.   Denial is a necessary part of the grieving process. Deny. Deny. 
Deny.  Then get over it.

2.   Excuses are helpful.  After all it probably wasn’t you that forgot 
to arrange to get the septic system pumped out in a timely way.  It was? 
 Well, weren’t you too busy trying to figure out why Ryan Starr didn’t 
get bumped sooner on American Idol to pay attention to the tell tale 
warning signs of septic system overload.  After all aren’t’ you entitled 
to a life?

3.  Extra Sensory Perception.  Don’t rely on it.  A simple sniff test 
will probably do better to avoid these problems than all the paranormal 
activity in the world.

4.  Play First, Work Second.  What the hey, you have already slipped in 
it haven’t you?  So you just as well enjoy yourself now.  Barn door is 
open already and all that stuff.  Don’t let one little incident spoil 
your joie de vivre forever.

5.  Depend on your friends.  If you get down in this slippery stuff deep 
enough, you can never get yourself out.  And if friends don’t show up 
you can always pray for a miracle. The point is that these incidents 
will happen and there’s nothing you can do about them.

6.  Oooomm.  Give yourself a little wawa and incantation time every day. 
 Let the gentle breezes play in your hair.  Meditation is where it’s at 
baby.  Besides you are probably experiencing a lot of solitary time 
anyway, most of us do after such an incident, so make the best of your 
Pepe Le Peu time by getting in touch with your inner self.

7.  Outrage.  Join a chapter of VOSSSI and express your concern about 
sloppy septic conditions everywhere.  Advocate for better access to 
litigation for the common man.

8.  Dump.  Rid yourself of those used up things in your life that hold 
you back.  Vent.  Let it go.  Give it up.  One caution here, be sure to 
see that your septic system is back in working order before you do this 
in a major way.

9.  Open your mind and heart to new things.  As you reach the end of 
your road to recovery it will be time to seek out new opportunities and 
experiences. Be open to new challenges.  You have had a septic incident. 
 It has hurt you and perhaps scarred your psyche for life.  But don’t 
worry, there are other different equally impacting opportunities out 
there.  Like politics, social protest, extreme sports, oral surgery, UFO 
verification projects, investment clubs, and Windows 98.  The list is 
endless.  You got hurt once, but you don’t have to go back to that, you 
can get hurt in endless ways. Be open to the possibilities.  Maybe you 
lost your boots to a septic incident, but you could easily lose your 
shirt in mutual funds.  The sky is the limit.

10.  Overcome.  That’s the name of our monthly newsletter for all VOSSSI 
members.  This month, and every month, there are a host of helpful 
articles to assist you in your recovery.  For example, would you have 
been better prepared had you studied: “Sewer traps, do they really 
work?” from our August issue?  Or what about “Top 10 Sewer Sucking 
Services in the NorthWest.”  We frequently rank these people for your 
protection.  So subscribe now by calling our hot line number 
1 - deepdoodoo.  Remember the slogan on our masthead.  “Don’t be 
overcome, read Overcome, and overcome.”  Catchy eh?

Tom

*Victims of Sad Septic System Incidents

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RE: [ZION] Ways food storage could be activated

[Tom Matkin]

> -John-
> >>>A little MYOB would go a long way to solving America's foreign
policy
> >>>problems.
> >>
> >> Make your own beer
> >
> > Mind Your Own Business --JWR
> 
> 
> Seems unnecessarily harsh. Poor Till was just trying to clarify the
> meaning of the acronym -- and this is a discussion list, after all.
> 
> Stephen the Peacemaker (1.5 megaton warhead)

On the other hand, and it pains me to say this because no one is more to
be admired than the venerable Till, but still, I have to say it...
Wasn't it the Till who first introduced alcohol into the discussion?
That never helps in civil discourse. One can understand JWR responding a
little bit harshly when someone wades into a discussion with beer on his
virtual breath. Anyway I'm guessing the acronym is "Masticate your own
beans".  JWR's gentle way of suggesting that US foreign policy was
slightly overzealous and that nations should be left to chew on their
own problems.  Of course if JWR comes back at "me" and suggests that I
"Mind my own business" I'll go the penitent route too.  
 
Tom the temperate 

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RE: [ZION] New National Parks

[Tom Matkin]

They also announced, or it was said that the government would announce,
that Waterton National Park (the northern contiguous sister park to
Glacier National Park) will be increased in size.  I was wondering if I
would wake up this morning and find that I now lived in a National Park.
Did they announce the particulars of the intended increase?

Tom

Cardston, Alberta
www.matkin.com


> -Original Message-
> From: Marc A. Schindler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: October 3, 2002 4:25 PM
> To: zion-l
> Subject: [ZION] New National Parks
> 
> 10 new national parks have been announced, increasing the area of our
> national parks by 50%:
>
< RKN/national/national/nationalTheNationHeadline_temp/3/3/30/>>
> 
> There's no map online, so here's a summary list of the parks and where
> they are:
> 
> 1.Northern Bathurst Island: in the Arctic Archipelago, near the
> north magnetic pole
> 2. East arm of Great Slave Lake (tundra meets the northern edge of
> the boreal forest; caribou and other wildlife)
> 3.Gwali Haunas Marine (Queen Charlotte Islands; Gwaii is the Haida
> word for "Haida")
> 4. & 5.Gulf Islands and Gulf Islands Marine  (Canadian side of the
> Gulf Islands north of Puget Sound)
> 6.Manitoba Lowlands ("Interlaken" muskeg area where the Canadian
> shield meets the eastern edge of the boreal forest)
> 7. Mealy Mountains (mountains lining the big inlet where Happy
> Valley-Goose Bay NATO base is, in Labrador)
> 8. Torngat Mountains  (northern tip of Labrador and east side of
> Quebec's Ungava Bay)
> 9. Ukkusiksalik (Wager Bay); reversing waterfall on Chesterfield
> Inlet, polar bear habitat
> 10.North Shore of Lake Superior (marine park)
> 
> There are already 39 national parks; this will make 49; and Chrétien
has
> said he will announce 3 more in the coming months.
> 
> --
> Marc A. Schindler
> Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
> 
> "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too
high
> and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our
> mark."
> --Michelangelo Buonarroti
> 
> Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
> author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
> author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
> may be associated.
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] Bruce R McConkie

[Tom Matkin]

Paul Osborne wrote:
> Conference is coming!!
> 
> "But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God's
> Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation
> comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way." (Bruce R.
> McConkie)

I'm just here in Salt Lake in my mother's missionary apartment about a 
block from the Conference Center.  One of the most striking moments in 
this morning's session was the choir's rendition of "I Believe in 
Christ".  Which always puts me in mind of Elder McConkie.  At the end of 
the choir number I was so captivated that I said "Wow" outloud.  I hope 
I didn't disturb the people all around me.  The music is really 
marvelous in the Conference Centre.

Tom
> 
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 

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RE: [ZION] Bruce R McConkie

[Tom Matkin]

Dans L'eglise Ici Bas was a great favorite of the French Saints in my
missionary days.  I have loved it ever since and led my ward choir in it
whenever I got the chance.  Recently we sang it at the nursing home
where we sing every Sunday and one of the nursing assistants (who is a
wayward Saint) came and took the hymn book (the old one) into his hands
and sang with us for the first time in almost 4 years of our regular
singing. Once it gets into your mind and heart the tune is indelibly
upon you.  The words are a bit gruesome though, but sadly accurate.

Strangely I find the versification of "I Believe in Christ" to be rather
pedestrian and, dare I say it, doggerel-like. The music has never
bothered me. The rhymes are too contrived and there are too many clichéd
phrases for my liking.  You may wonder, how can a hack poet like Tom
even imagine to judge someone else's verse?  Well it usually just
strikes me that way. I don't mean to infer that I could do any better.
When you use phrases like "come what may", "with all my heart", and "my
feet he plants on gospel sod" you are asking for that criticism.  On the
other hand the sincerity of the message is profound even if some of the
phrases are trite or clichéd. And when rendered, as it was on Saturday,
by a powerful choir in magnificent acoustical surroundings with the
right spirit the whole thing blended to become a great testimony of
Christ.  It literally took my breath away to hear and experience that
hymn at that time. 

Tom

Cardston, Alberta
www.matkin.com


> -Original Message-
> From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: October 7, 2002 1:49 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Bruce R McConkie
> 
> At 01:19 PM 10/7/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> >Lastly, my one big complaint: they took out a hymn very few people
> remember,
> >"Tho' in the Outward Church Below," whose music was composed by
Mozart
> himself,
> >and comes from The Magic Flute, although the hymn is sung more
up-tempo
> than the
> >tenor aria, and to completely different words. In German it was "Noch
> Warten,
> >Herr, in Deinem Reich," and had a rumbling, spine-tingling bass line
in
> the
> >chorus that I guess most men just couldn't master -- except, Jo, for
the
> Welsh, I
> >presume, and certainly for German-speaking men, who seem to be more
> enthusiastic
> >hymn singers than their anglophone counterparts.
> 
> The Mozart hymn from The Magic Flute and Come Thou Fount of Every
Blessing
> are the two hymns that I miss the most from the old hymnal.  I've even
> heard the Tabernacle Choir do the latter one in General Conference
after
> it was removed from our hymnal.  I wish they would put it back in.  It
is
> the hymn that I whistle under my breath sometimes all day long.
> 
> 
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> *
> "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
> intellectuals." --Uncle Bob
> *
> "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] New scripture

[Tom Matkin]

> 
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:49:58 -0400 Jon Spencer
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > My wife just received a letter from Church Distribution to our
> > bookstore
> > outlining the changes in their scripture lines.  There are only two
> > changes
> > to the contents of the scriptures:
> >
> > 1.  Doctrine and Covenants Section 139, the revelation on members
> > being
> > required to purchase a white minivan (paid for with cash) has been
> > added.
> > 2.  Article of Faith 14, the one that starts "We believe in
> > meetings," has
> > been added.
> 
> OK, I can LIVE with AoF #14 (actually I DO live with it ), but
> doggoneit, I just bought a RED minivan in July!!  NOW what?


Repent. I believe there's a scripture that says "Though your minivan be
as scarlet it shall be white as snow" or words to that effect. Which
sort of helps you out, but does nothing for the aquamarine minivan
crowd.

BTW, my minivan is a white Astro van and even though I don't have a
chrome ladder on it I'm still mighty happy not to be trying to drive it
around in the Washington D.C. area these days. Heaven knows if all my
taillights are working or not. Not likely.

Tom

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Re: [ZION] aurora borealis spotting

[Tom Matkin]

Dear JWR and others,

I'm beginning (just beginning mind you) to have parallel thoughts to the
venerable ELF. I knew he was going to write this before I read it. I know it is
prideful for me to admit to such flights of heady brilliance, but I can't help
being pleased that I have made such progress. And, of course, I'm somewhat
envious of Marc's view as well. Do you have a drawbridge or something so you can
get across that mote in your front yard or do you wait for total freeze up and
let the dogs take you around?

Tom

"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:

> At 23:36 10/29/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> >Okay, some people are train spotters. I'm an aurora spotter. We've had
> >aurorae for some time now. My wife woke me up at 04:00 one morning to
> >see a very unusual display. It was a greenish white swoosh across the
> >entire sky, with the moon right in the middle. Very neat.  I've uploaded
> >a very nice picture of the aurora if anyone's interested. It happens to
> >be a digital picture, actually, but is still a spectacular picture.
> >http://www.geocities.com/marcschindler1/aurora.jpg
>
> Wow, THAT'S the view from your porch?  I'm impressed!
>
> Till
>
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RE: [ZION] The veil

[Tom Matkin]

> >Can love last forever?
> >And what if it did?
> >Nights like when Tom called to say that he couldn't come back
> >Because nothing felt the same anymore
> >Seared her soul and she thought "Why not?"
> >"I've found a younger, truer kind of love," he said.
> >And she wanted to scream and scream at him like a banshee
> >For knowing how a wrinkle killed the bloom of romance.
> >She hated his guts forever but he never thought about it.
> >Anyway, that's how I see it.
> 
> 
> Good job, that's a real masterpiece of translation.

It is good.  But almost anything coming out of Shakespearean or
Elizabethan English seems to suffer from the transformation.  "The
Creative Essence is my sheepherder" comes to mind.


> 
> 
> >Poets must be a distinctly unhappy lot.  But then, I believe that
they do
> >sometimes accurately reflect the spirit of the times.  (Tom, Elf and
> other
> >present company excepted, of course).
> 
> 
> Not so, my friend, my finest poetry always comes out of some sort of
> misery.  I'll take the first statement, Poets must be a distinctly
unhappy
> lot.
> 

It is true that the venerable Till has been known to turn to verse more
frequently in his darkest moments. Things must be looking up for him
though, because his output has diminished markedly in the past year or
so. 

Would to find that the Till wrote more verse
But it may be he's blessed with a curse
If he's happy his muse
He'll inev'tably lose
Till can't write again till he gets worse!

Tom

> Till who is ONLY speaking for himself
> 
>

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> ///
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> 

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RE: [ZION] Antarctic Warming

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: Marc A. Schindler 
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming
> 
> This is precisely the way science works. 

Or doesn't work!  What will the next study show? And the one after that?
One is tempted to observe after a lifetime of encounters with scientific
contradictions, false leads, overblown conclusions, forgotten lessons,
conflicts of interest, grandiose hubris, smoke and mirrors, and (as a
steady disturbing diversion), bald faced lies, spiced up by the
occasional lucky guess or flash of genuine inspiration that these so
called "scientific" studies are at best desperate flailing hunting
oscillations, mere wild and hopeful hunches based on incomplete and
false readings of the landscape, that have staggered through history
like a merry band of oblivious drunken sailors ignorantly reeling down a
narrow waterfront pier ever more in danger of drowning than safe passage
to shore. But I will resist the temptation.

Tom


It is a good study. Note, too,
> that he
> found evidence of global warming in other areas. We know that our own
> Arctic is
> warming up, as is the boreal forest, where I live. This is having a
number
> of
> results -- eventually everything will settle into a new stasis, but
any
> kind of
> change is disruptive. In our case it means more forest fires, in the
case
> of the
> Arctic it means the opening up of the Northwest Passage, and the
coming to
> the
> fore of an old political issue between Canada and the USA: namely,
whether
> internal waters should be considered high seas or not. The US says the
> Northwest
> Passage is international waters, Canada disagrees. The US claims the
> Inside
> Passage, between Vancouver Island the mainland of BC as international,
> even
> though one often traverses through straits as narrow as a few km wide.
It
> will
> not accede to the channel between Los Angeles and the Catalina
Islands, or
> Long
> Island Sound, as being international, though. This is a holdover from
the
> Cold
> War, when Soviet submarines used to hover off the coasts.
> 
> Jim Cobabe wrote:
> 
> > Is global warming just symbolic?  Like so many other theories, it
seems
> > forever tentative.
> >
> > Deseret News, Tuesday, November 05, 2002
> >
> > Iceberg theories melting
> >
> > By Jesse Hyde
> > Deseret News staff writer
> >
> > PROVO - In March 2000, the largest iceberg ever observed broke off
an
> ice
> > shelf in Antarctica, signaling for many a warming of the planet.
> >
> > A pair of scientists concluded a year later that the number of
icebergs
> > around Antarctica was on the rise. The icebergs were melting, it
seemed,
> > because the planet was getting hotter.
> >
> > A recent study by a Brigham Young University professor disputes this
> theory.
> > David Long, a BYU professor of electrical engineering, says the
> increasing
> > number of icebergs observed around Antarctica has nothing to do with
> global
> > warming.
> >
> > "There's no evidence that there's a connection," Long says.
"Basically,
> we
> > see better now, so we see more."
> >
> > Long and his students spent more than a year studying 20 years of
> satellite
> > pictures and radar images taken of the waters around the South Pole
and
> > determined the number of icebergs near Antarctica has not changed
> > substantially. More icebergs are reported today because the tools to
> spot
> > them have improved, the study found.
> >
> > Researchers have used satellite imaging to identify and monitor
icebergs
> > since the early 1970s, but cloudy weather and dark nights often
> prevented
> > some icebergs from being photographed and identified.
> >
> > Scientists then began using radar, which can identify icebergs
through
> > clouds and operate at night. Until recently the resolution of the
radar
> > images was too low to detect icebergs smaller than 35 miles across.
> >
> > Long's research team created a computer program that produces images
> sharp
> > enough to spot icebergs as small as a mile wide.
> >
> > The number of icebergs found in Antarctica has not changed much
since
> 1978,
> > Long concluded. The massive icebergs recently observed breaking off
ice
> > shelves are the result of periodic growth and retraction of the
large
> > glaciers that yield icebergs every 40 to 50 years.
> >
> > "This is not evidence of global warming," Long said. "But it also
does
> not
> > say global warming isn't occurring. It doesn't say anything either
way."
> >
> > In fact, Long has done other research that supports the global
warming
> > theory. He found more melting of snow on the Greenland icecap is the
> result
> > of a one degree temperature increase that is consistent with other
> global
> > warming theories.
> >
> > Douglas MacAyeal, a University of Chicago glaciologist who tracks
> icebergs,
> > applauds Long's research and says linking iceberg growth to global
> warming
> > would be premature.
> >
> > "Any reputable scientist would not disagree with what I've said,"
Long
> said.
> >
> > Long'

RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

[Tom Matkin]

Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> Let us know what you decide, and I'm sure I speak for the 3 of us when I 
> say we'll
> do what we can to accommodate you. I'm probably the closest to the 
> highway you'll
> be on (the Yellowhead) but Mark's not too far off, and Cardston's about 
> a 45
> minute side trip each way (from the main highway south from Lethbridge 
> to
> Montana).

The trip from Provo to Cardston takes 12 hours if you only stop for gas 
and perhaps one or two very fast pottie breaks at road side rest areas.  
If you tempt fate and have a very fast car you can do it in 11 hours.  
If you are a young person in love and out of touch with reality you 
might even shave a half hour off that.  If you are the type that stops 
to eat it will take you 13 or 14 hours.  If you stop to smell the 
roses well plan for two days.

There are a wide variety of routes with varying advantages and 
disadvantages.  Basically, the best thing to do is take the I-15 from 
Provo to at least Wolf Creek Mt. Just north of Wolf Creek you can cut 
off for the shortest route to Canada (not necessarily the quickest). If 
you are interested in the quickest you carry on through Great Falls to 
the border.  There are a couple of places to cut off when Cardston is 
your goal to save a few minutes, but the Coutts/Sweetgrass border 
crossing on I-15 is the only 24 hour port of entry in the vicinity and 
going there reduces the complication of possibly sleeping in a car in 
the Montana wilderness waiting for the border to open in the distant 
morning.

After crossing the border at Coutts/Sweetgrass you get to Cardston 
either by taking highway #501 west after going north from the border 
about 12 miles.  Or you can go about 20 miles north and cut off west to 
Raymond, then south to Cardston.  But that's longer and the road isn't 
any better imho.

If you stretched your day out on Wednesday to reach Cardston you would 
find beds and breakfast at the Matkin home.  The next day it would be a 
6 hour drive to Edmonton.  I'm no expert on how long it takes to get 
from Edmonton to Prince Rupert. But it would probably take a monster day 
(we used to drive from here to Vancouver in a single day, when we didn't 
know any better and I suppose it would be a comparable journey).  If it 
stretched out for two days you would get to Prince Rupert by Sat. night. 
 Which builds a little slack into your itinerary in case you have a flat 
tire, get hit by food poisoning from eating tainted deep fried chicken 
gizzards at the Flying J in Rocker, Montana (just west of beautiful 
downtown Butte) get lost, encounter normal winter driving conditions, or 
stop to smell the roses.

Tom
> 
> "John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> 
> > It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this 
> > coming
> > weekend.  My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of
> > Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th.  He is going to
> > fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family 
> > automobile
> > to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry.  I thought I would fly 
> > down
> > there and help her drive back.
> >
> > So...  I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit
> > the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th.  I've got to be to 
> > the
> > ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM.
> >
> > By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to 
> > Prince
> > Rupert by shortest route.  But the route passes pretty close to Cardston
> > and Edmonton.  I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and
> > the two Emontonions on my way.  It would only add about 300 miles to my
> > trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway.  
> > It
> > sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face.
> >
> > Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me 
> > or
> > something?
> >
> > Your friend and brother,
> > John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > //
> > 
> > ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> > ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> > /
> > 
> >
> 
> --
> Marc A. Schindler
> Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
> 
> “Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he 
> will pick
> himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill
> 
> Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the 
> author
> solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s 
> employer,
> nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
> 
> 
> 
> 

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RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South

[Tom Matkin]

I've been a little overwhelmed with the volume of chatter today.  I've
tried, at the least, to read everything on this thread but I can't be
sure. So I'll summarize and stand to be corrected if necessary.

My understanding is that JWR is planning to leave Provo on Wednesday
November 20, 2002 in the early morning with a view to landing in
Cardston in the evening. He will be with his daughter.  We will provide
a bedroom with a bed for each of them and nourishment as required.  (I
have a stake presidency meeting scheduled for that evening and will not
be available from 6:00 until about 9:00, although I do have some control
of the agenda and may be able to shorten the meeting a bit).  In the
morning we will eat and then go to the Cardston Temple for a session.
The first one in the morning requires arrival of about 9:10 a.m..  That
would get your out of the temple by shortly after 11:00.  If you strike
off for Edmonton at that time you will be there around 5 or 6 in the
evening.

I believe this is the part of your itinerary that concerns me. Let me
know if I have it right.  I understand that it's tentative at this
point. But I can advise that I have already discussed the matter with
the mistress of the house and she is delighted with the idea, although
her job will not allow her to slack off and go to the temple with us on
Thursday morning. I will give you more detailed directions to Cardston
off the I-15 in due course and also my toll free long distance telephone
number (off list, I guess, there is this thing about Internet security)
so you can advise of your progress as you near Cardston.  I should just
mention that Marc has it a little off in his directions to get to
Cardston.  It's not at all necessary or desirable to go all the way to
Lethbridge or Fort Macleod and then backtrack to Cardston.  You can cut
over almost directly to Cardston from the US/Canada border and the net
effect of coming to Cardston would add less than 15 or 20 minutes to
your trip, (except for the 14 or 15 hours you would laze around my house
;->).

Tom


Cardston, Alberta
www.matkin.com

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Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality

[Tom Matkin]

It seems that the incident actually did happen.  Here's a typical report that came
up when I did a "Fetch" search on "MRI killing"

Tom

Lawsuit filed in MRI death

By MELISSA KLEIN
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original publication: July 4, 2002)

WHITE PLAINS — The family of a 6-year-old boy killed in an MRI accident at
Westchester Medical Center in Valhalla has filed a $20 million lawsuit against the
hospital, its medical staff and others involved in the incident, which focused
international attention on the potential dangers of MRI procedures.

The lawsuit, filed this week in state Supreme Court in White Plains, comes almost a
year after Michael Colombini of Croton-on-Hudson was hit in the head by a metal
oxygen tank that was yanked by magnetic force into the MRI chamber. He died two days
later on July 29.

Michael's mother, Barbra Colombini, declined to comment yesterday.

"We're looking to get justice for this family that has suffered a terrible and
devastating loss," said Matthew Gaier, a partner with the Manhattan law firm Kramer,
Dillof, Livingston & Moore, which is representing the Colombinis.

The lawsuit names the Westchester County Health Care Corp., the parent entity for
the medical center, as well as its affiliated medical school, New York Medical
College in Valhalla, and General Electric Corp, which manufactured the MRI machine.
The suit also names anesthesiologist Dr. Jian Hou, who was reported to have carried
the oxygen tank into the MRI room, as well as a nurse, Mary Nadler, who is said to
have given Hou the tank, and two MRI technologists, Patricia Lauria and Paul
Daniels, who were operating the machine.

Those individuals named in the lawsuit have not previously been publicly identified.

Also named were University Imaging and Medical Associates, a doctors' group that had
supervised the day-to-day operation of the MRI suite, and Valhalla Anesthesia
Associates, the private practice that provides anesthesia services at the hospital.

Carin Grossman, a spokeswoman for the medical center, said the hospital would not
comment on the lawsuit.

"We continue to accept full responsibility for our role in this tragedy, and we
cannot discuss the issue any further because it's in litigation," Grossman said.

A spokeswoman for New York Medical College also declined to comment, saying the
college had not yet received the legal papers. A spokesman for General Electric did
not return a call seeking comment.

The lawsuit alleges that Michael Colombini was injured because of a "hazardous,
unsafe, defective and dangerous condition."

Michael, who had just completed kindergarten, had a successful operation at the
medical center to remove a benign brain tumor and was undergoing the MRI on July 27,
as a follow-up to that treatment. He was sedated for the exam and in the MRI machine
when the accident happened.

The lawsuit alleges that the hospital failed to properly anesthetize Michael, to
monitor his oxygen flow, and to "properly prepare for the MRI procedure and have all
necessary and proper oxygen supplies available."

General Electric was cited in the lawsuit for failing to place the proper warnings
around the machine noting its potential danger and failing to establish and issue
appropriate training and safety procedures.

According to a state Health Department review of the incident, the anesthesiologist
notified an MRI technologist that there was a problem with the piped-in oxygen
supply in the MRI room. Two technologists left the machine's control room to remedy
the problem, leaving the MRI unsupervised.

The anesthesiologist then urgently called out to obtain oxygen, according to the
Health Department.

What happened next had initially been a matter of dispute. The hospital's internal
review of the incident noted that a nurse said she gave the doctor the oxygen tank
in a hallway outside the MRI room. The doctor said the nurse brought it into the
room.

The Health Department, in its report, found that the anesthesiologist brought the
tank into the MRI room.

Gaier, the family's lawyer, said both the anesthesiologist and the nurse were named
in the lawsuit because "one way or another, they were both involved."

The Health Department fined the medical center $22,000 for 11 violations relating to
the accident, including failing to properly report and investigate a similar MRI
incident that had taken place four years earlier. No one was injured in that
incident, of which the hospital said it was unaware until after Michael's death.

Hou's conduct was reviewed by the state's Office of Professional Medical Conduct,
which looks into potential cases of misconduct by doctors. The state Health
Department, under state law, does not release information if no action is taken
against a doctor. It only makes public final disciplinary actions and no such action
was on record with the Health Department as of yesterday.

Attempts yesterday to reach Hou, who still works at the medical center, were
unsuccessful.

The medical center

[ZION] No Redelfs Citings?

[Tom Matkin]

Wonder why you aren't seeing any posts from our BLT?  It's because he's 
on his international tour. Did you forget or what?  Last night John and 
his daughter Becky stayed at our house and then this morning I went to a 
temple session with them before pointing them north and wishing them 
well for the rest of their trip back to Alaska.  They should be in 
Edmonton around the supper hour where they will hook up with one or both 
of the Marx brothers, I think, before veering to the west.  

Tom

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[ZION] Text Messages on Cell Phone

[Tom Matkin]

It just came to my attention that the text messaging function on my cell
phone has now been activated. A holiday gift to me from Rogers AT&T. I
was able to send a brief message (test) to my regular email address and
also to send an email message to my cell phone from my computer.  I also
sent a brief message to my wife (Hi Hon, Love Tom) to her cell phone and
just to make sure there is peace in the family I sent one to my
daughter.  That pretty much exhausts my sense of what can be done with
this new method of communication. Does anyone on the list use this
service?  If so why? It is painfully slow to compose even the simplest
message, something akin to setting the time on your VCR. Perhaps some of
you out there can suggest good reasons for this service.  I've seen the
cool TV commercials where disarmingly casual young men warn each other
from the horrors of attending a possible "chick flick" using their text
messaging phones, or where two young lovers share messages from either
end of a Greyhound bus.  But at $.15 a pop one wonders. Why not just
call the person up and talk?  I suppose it makes the phone into a
glorified pager, but I already have a voice mail feature on my cell
phone to collect the wrong numbers that frequently catch me.  I seem to
have a number that was once had by a sales rep. at Zurich Life
Insurance.  He still gets a lot of calls er... I still get a lot of
his calls on that number.  His name is Neal. I hope we meet one day.
I'll click my tongue and point my finger with my thumb straight up, in
that classic sales rep sort of way, and say "Hi ya Neal, I've got yer
number!" It would take 45 minutes to turn those seven words into a text
message on the cell phone.

Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving to y'all. Here's a link to tell you how to
avoid killing yourself preparing that Butterball.  Sorry if it's too
late to help.
http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/FoodSafety/foodsturkey.php#What
Imagine the odds of survival if you were eating turkey on a Disney
Cruise ship?

Tom

Cardston, Alberta
www.matkin.com

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[ZION] Turkey Mood

[Tom Matkin]

I'm guessing, from what I read below, that the mood on the list should
be very upbeat after today.

I'm planning to have for lunch a turkey and cheese sandwich with milk
and a banana for desert whenever I have the need to be sharp in the
evening.

Tom



 
 Posted on Thu, Nov. 21, 2002   
 
Turkey chemical may lift mood, researchers say
>From Herald Wire Services

The chemical in turkey that may cause people to nod off after
Thanksgiving dinner also plays a role in maintaining good mood and
memory, especially among people with a family history of depression,
Dutch researchers report in the current issue of Brain, Behavior and
Immunity.

Tryptophan, found in turkey and commonly blamed in the media for
creating the sluggish after-feast feeling, is a metabolic precursor to
the chemical messenger known as serotonin. It's also found in foods like
milk, bread, cheese and bananas.

Tryptophan levels were lowered in 27 volunteers, 16 of whom had an
immediate relative with major depression. The depletion temporarily
induced mood depression in half of the subjects who had a family history
of depression but in only 9 percent of those with no family history of
depression.

The authors suggest the findings may have implications for people with a
family history of major depression whose tryptophan becomes depleted
because of dieting or cancer treatments.


Tom

Cardston, Alberta
www.matkin.com

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[ZION] A friend has sent you this Herman comic

[Tom Matkin]

Hi! A comic strip has been sent to you from [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

To see your comic and your friend's message, visit Comics.com here:
http://www.comics.com/webmail/ViewStrip?key=5241398-0aa0d42ce3-FF 

If you cannot access the page by clicking on the URL above, just copy and paste it 
into your browser's address window. Be sure to copy the entire URL, as it may be 
broken up into two lines.

You'll be able to view the message on our server for the next two weeks so print it 
out if you'd like to save it for posterity or sentimental value.

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RE: [ZION] Poetry List

[Tom Matkin]

I'll send you an invitation through Topica.

The rhyming URL that I prefer is
http://rhyme.lycos.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=quest&typeofrhyme=perfect&org1=s
yl&org2=l

It's also a useful (but not too detailed) dictionary, thesaurus with a
lot of features.  If you have broadband it's really slick, with dial up
service it's okay, but is a little slower. 
 
Tom

Cardston, Alberta
www.matkin.com


> -Original Message-
> From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: December 2, 2002 10:48 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [ZION] Poetry List
> 
> Hey Tom, how do I sign up for your poetry list?
> 
>

//
> 
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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>

//
> ///
> 

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RE: [ZION] Saving My Head

[Tom Matkin]

Offer to let her shave your head.  I can't guarantee that will save your
head, but it might be a start. Letting her in on the act might just be
the ticket.  

BTW I understand that some people have mild or worse allergies to their
own hair. Maybe I read that in the National Inquiring Midnight Star in a
super market checkout line. Tell her that you have it on good authority
that the reason you have that little traveling wound on your noggin is
that you have a moderate to severe allergy to your own hair. She will
not want to continue torturing you. 

OTH you could just keep your head of hair.  It's quite handsome. If mine
had looked as good as yours I might have done the same.  And you can
always get some of that spray to make the bald spot disappear. Suggest
to Esperanza that she could get you some for Christmas. Then you would
have no fear of sitting down in a public place.

http://www.folica.com/cosmetics/topcoverage.htm

Tom

Cardston, Alberta
www.matkin.com


> -Original Message-
> From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: December 2, 2002 10:48 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [ZION] Saving My Head
> 
> For a number of years I have wanted to shave my head, but Esperanza
says
> no.  Yesterday she made a major concession.  She says that if I get my
> weight down to 250 lbs. she will let me shave my head.  Hurrah!
> 
> Of course that means that I'll have to shed 86 lbs.  I don't think
> Esperanza is too worried about me shaving my head. 
> 
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
> School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
> four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
> Church members in their personal and family study. We
> need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
> a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
> any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] Saving My Head

[Tom Matkin]

I advised freely:

And you can
> always get some of that spray to make the bald spot disappear. Suggest
> to Esperanza that she could get you some for Christmas. Then you would
> have no fear of sitting down in a public place.
> 
> http://www.folica.com/cosmetics/topcoverage.htm
> 

Hey, I just looked at the chemical composition of that spray. (SD
alcohol 40, Isobutane, Acrylates/PVP copolymer, Propane iron oxides,
Titanium dioxide, Silica, Triethyl citrate, Phenyl Trimethicone,
Aminomethyl propanol, SDA-CA-2141.)  I don't think it would be right to
spray it in the same room as an open sore, let alone directly on said
wound. Certainly you wouldn't want to spray it in a room with an open
flame.  So the spray may not be an option.  Ask her how she feels about
rugs or transplant surgery.  Sometimes when I let my ambition run wild,
I think I might like to sing in the MTC, but then I remember that I
would have to wear a rug to fit in, and then I also remember that you
have to audition and they are probably able to tell those of us who
really can't sing.  Finally I notice that sometimes they seem to have
memorized the words and music to certain hymns.  Three strikes and my
dream of hymnal heaven is out.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Shaving My Head WAS Saving My Head

[Tom Matkin]

JWR explained:

>The military really drilled me into the prejudice
> that a man should be "covered" only while outdoors

I have sometimes wondered where that prejudice came from.  If you get 15
or more men sitting around a table at Stake PEC and someone drops the
idea that some of the youth have been seen wearing their caps in the
church again and what should we do about it, it is amazing the variety
of responses you get. Some people go ballistic about it. Others (the
ones wearing their caps) don't seem to see the problem.  I never thought
to enquire about their military history to see what was formative in
those attitudes.

I think if you feel good about wearing a hat indoors you really should
feel fine about wearing a toupee. What is a toupee anyway?  Just a hat
with fur on it.  But seriously John, you are far from needing a toupee,
or a hat.  You may have a few problems with major depression and all
that, but you certainly don't have the severe insecurity and vanity that
leads to that sort of behaviour!  

OTOH wearing a hat out of doors is great.  I was watching that old
Christmas movie Miracle of 34th Street the other day and some of the
hats those guys wore were wonderful, and I was wishing the fashion would
come back. (I wonder if the church isn't partially responsible for
driving men's hats out of the social consciousness.  We dressed our
missionaries in them for too long. Until the image ceases to recall the
strong impressing "mormon missionary incoming" hats don't have a hope of
regaining favor with the world) I took notice of the great hats partly
because Betty and I went shopping for a dress hat for me in Lethbridge a
couple of weeks ago.  I needed something to wear with a black suit, a
black overcoat, and black shoes at a graveside service on a cold winter
day.  Finally I found a lovely beaver felt hat at a western store.  The
hat had a wide satin/silk band and it was the right color and didn't
really have a western cut.  Perfect for my "blues brothers" appearances
as well.  (Remember I play the blues harp.)  But it was the only hat in
town as far as we could tell after 2 hours of looking.  Very fine men's
wear stores had no dress hats and offered two or three lids fit for
wearing to a golf country club luncheon in an ascot and sports coat if
you were color blind and allergic to the sun.   I did buy the felt hat.
It cost about $100 which was something of a bargain (or so the store
owner told me). And I got scolded for putting it down on a flat surface
(ruins the shape of the brim) and for taking it off with my thumb and
fingers in the notches at the top front (leaves grease marks over time).
Seems the guy took his training at the Nazi Soup Lover's school of
merchandising.  (Do you think my post would be more scholarly if I took
out all the parenthetical comments and stuck them at the end as
footnotes? It would make it more difficult to read, and I think that's
the first requirement of any scholarly work.)

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Tom Murphy's Statement (was Re: LDS Writer Expects to BeExcommunica

[Tom Matkin]

I hesitate to weigh in on this.  But perhaps if I confine my remarks to
generic comments it will be okay.  In fact, I know nothing about Brother
Murphy and have never read his article. I had heard something of this
gene study a while back when some bishop from Australia lost his feeble
testimony over it and made a big fuss about it. At that time I was
satisfied that the scientific story was incomplete and merely an excuse
for the man to act on his lack of spiritual preparation.  The statement
produced here by Brother Murphy, if it is authentic, does indicate a
point of view that needs to be addressed.  It is that point of view that
I am addressing, not Brother Murphy's attitudes, circumstances or
future.  Those things are largely irrelevant to me or any other member
of the church not involved directly in Brother Murphy's council.  The
point of view that I'm concerned with is that of members of the church
who feel they have a special duty or knowledge or even right that
requires or allows them to correct the doctrines established by the duly
appointed leaders of the church.

Fundamentally the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a
kingdom.  It is ruled by its King, Jesus Christ. The rest of us are
subjects, and to the extent that we are loyal subjects (submissive
disciples) we inherit certain valuable blessings. The rules, principles,
ordinances, practices  and doctrines under which the kingdom is
established and operates are distilled upon the kingdom by its King.
This is not a democracy.  Space for contradictory or new notions or
dogmas is not carved out in the church by dint of membership action.
This organization is ruled from the top down. Efforts to influence the
doctrine from the bottom up (intellectual arguments, scientific
pronouncements, social protests, petitions, arguments, debates,
demonstrations, quasi scholarly studies, philosophical musings,
lobbying, harassing, contradicting, campaigning, volunteering,
advocating, blackmailing, or whatever) will always be ineffective and
inappropriate.  One does have a remarkable appeal that is unavailable in
any similarly designed kingdom.  You can appeal directly to the Father
of the King.  He is open to your every personal petition and does hear
and answer your prayers.  He offers comfort, wisdom, pure knowledge and
love to any who approach him with faith, diligence, patience, brother
kindness, charity, humility and the same love.  To any that harden their
hearts to the doctrines of the kingdom He warns in Alma 12: 11 "And they
that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of
the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they
are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction.
Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell."

It is painfully evident that we must soften our hearts as we serve in
the kingdom of God. A change of heart is inevitable in this life.  It
will either soften or harden. Our whole energy should be focused on
doing those things and pursuing those ends which will soften (or break)
our hearts. Time spent trying to rearrange the doctrines of the kingdom
to our own liking, or according even to our own understanding. Carving
out space for different or even dissident notions seems singularly
contrary to the needs of the true disciple to order his own life after
the pattern set by the King.  Setting oneself up as the arbiter of
better doctrine than that revealed to the King's prophets seems to be a
practice to be avoided because it indicates, at the very least, that the
self appointed arbiter is hardening his heart. Nothing is more dangerous
to our eternal salvation than that.  Following along in the 12th chapter
of Alma "13 Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have
hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been
found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be
condemned. 14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will
condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also
condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our
God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the
mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence."

I would ask, do the statements and actions of those persons who profess
the strong desire to correct and reorder the kingdom follow a pattern of
meekness, humility, patience, and submission?*  Generally, of course,
they show us something altogether contrary to those virtues.  They are
couched in phrases that embrace absolutes, rock hard certainty, and
impatience. They are shrill and demanding. They scoff at the authority
and responsibility of those who seek to follow the established officers
leading the Lord's kingdom on earth. They know a better way.  They think
they know the only way.  Their hearts are congealed. They have chosen
their own fate.  Disciplinary councils may confirm it, but the choice is
made by the person himself 

RE: The Two Towers Anticipation (was Re: [ZION] Are any of you havingproblems?

[Tom Matkin]

I was treated to a viewing of the first movie in this series last
summer.  We were at our annual family reunion at Fairmont in our
timeshares and our family was the only one that thought to bring a DVD
player and our copy of the movie.  So all the LOR fanatics came to our
suite to watch it. And as a good host I made them home made ice cream
and watched politely.  I have to admit, however, that I received the
movie with a curious mixture of bewilderment, frustration and boredom.
It seemed to be essentially a rather contrived road movie with an
uncertain destination. The villains were far too villainous and the
heros far too heroic.  It seemed to be a cartoon. The string of Deux ex
machina like plot twists became almost ludicrous and certainly
pretentious. The thought of watching another like it makes me start to
reach around in my mind for the normal range of excuses... "I'm sorry I
have to wash my hair* tonight, I guess I'll have to skip the movie this
time..."

Tom

* substitute cat, car, clothes, or whatever for hair, just for variety.

Cardston, Alberta
www.matkin.com


> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Gregson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: December 10, 2002 9:28 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: The Two Towers Anticipation (was Re: [ZION] Are any of you
having
> problems?
> 
> 
> > By the way, am I the only one out there who is REALLY looking
forward to
> > seeing "LOTR: The Two Towers"?
> 
> Perhaps, but only because I am REALLY, UNBELIEVABLY looking forward to
it.
> :-)
> 
> While it does come out on the 18th, I count days until I will see it.
So
> for me, it's ten more days.
> 
> I have no suspense this time about how the movie will be.  I know that
it
> will be great because the first was so good and the continuity of
scene
> shooting guarantees consistent quality.
> 
> Predictions: 1.) It won't make as much money as the first one did (but
> will still make lots).
> 2.) It won't receive as much acclaim as a movie in and of itself as
the
> first one did.  It will very clearly be seen as the continuation of
the
> movie and very incomplete on its own.  No one will mind that, of
course,
> knowing what to expect.  Of course, the one year wait for the
completion
> will just about kill the fans.
> 3.) When all three movies are completed, the opus will considered one
of
> the greatest cinematic achievements of all time.  It will be a
standard
> against which all other directors' works will be judged.  Maybe no one
> will ever attempt anything like it again.  It will be considered a
> wonderful work of art that has substantially increased the value of
the
> great body of work done over time.  It will be canonical.  The
complete
> set of the extended versions will be a must have and no other series
of
> movies will come close to the total movie experience.  Not even the
first
> three Star Wars movies.
> 4.) After next year's third installation, there will be some theatres
that
> will hold near continuous showings of the "whole" movie (i.e. all
three)
> as one movie.  That will be about nine hours.  Perhaps people will be
able
> to pay for portions of the show.
> 
> 
> =  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =
> 
> 
> --
> ___
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RE: [ZION] Two Towers

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: Gary Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: December 11, 2002 2:40 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [ZION] Two Towers
> 
> Of course, what el presidente Tom hasn't mentioned is that along with
> washing his hair, he is a closet 'chick flick' fanatico. Give him
Julia
> Roberts dying of some strange disease and he'll be all swept up in the
> moment. Make sure there are plenty of Kleenex around   ;-)
> 

Who is this Roberts person?  A descendant of B.H. Roberts perhaps?

Tom (he knows his movies) Matkin

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Re: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Tom Matkin]

I heard that his acceleration exceeded his motivation causing his posterior to
pound the pavement.  Reminds me of the time my throttle stuck wide open when I was
climbing a sand dune near St. Anthony and my bike and I were launched over the
crest of the dune into the cool evening air at about 40 mph.  It took about 10
years for my tailbone to stop barking whenever I sat on it, especially on a
motorcycle.

Tom

"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:

> At 07:03 12/12/2002 +, Sir Chet wrote:
>
> >This accident you describe sounds worse though.  How's that again?  He
> >rode his motorcycle down the stairs and accelerated his fall?
>
> I think he said he was chasing his tail on the steps and tripped over the
> motorcycle, accelerating his downfall.
>
> Till the falling asleep
>
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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Tom Matkin]

Wow ELF, you really have it mixed up this time.  Scott dripped some
butter on his stairs while longing to get over his grudge against
mountain goats  grazing against two sure things. 

Tom

Cardston, Alberta
www.matkin.com


> -Original Message-
> From: Elmer L. Fairbank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: December 12, 2002 9:49 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
> 
> At 12:24 12/12/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >You guys have it all WRONG! I sliped and fell down some stairs,
injuring
> >my butt so that I can not ride my newly aquired Motorcycle. My
complaint
> >is that I can't ride the thing. I sometimes go out into the garage
just
> >to gaze longingly at it. I tried riding it a week and a half ago and
it
> >REALLY HURT. Made my butt more sore again too!
> >
> >I have now had the motorcylce over a month and still can't ride it!!
> 
> 
> OK, let's try again
> 
> 
> You were sipping on the wrong stuff when Bishop Newly showed up on the
> stairs, presently your countenance fell when he asked you to complain
> about
> your tithing and now  you're sore afraid that you can't get that
> motorcycle
> you've been dreaming of  plus now you're too weak, and half
minded
> to hurt the garbage man when he gazes longingly at you .
> 
> 
> Did we get it this time???  You're right, this DOES hurt  Have we
> ridden this to death yet?   Oh, my aching .
> 
> 
> Till the ever helpful
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Tom Matkin]

Scott wrote

> See Scott's butt.
> Hurt, Scott, hurt.
> See Scott's butt hurt.


Oh how painful where sidewalk tattooed it
So we see why you've so much boo hooed it
It may hurt you a lot
When you fell on that spot
But t'would hurt us far worse if we viewed it.

So we weep for your fall on the stairs
It hurts us, to be told, of your cares
But you're safer by far
Off that bike. In your car.
Could it be that this fall answered prayers?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Tom Matkin]

Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, what 
does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle. I 
seem to remember some counsel when I was called about being a good example. Remember I 
live in a small town where everyone seems to think they know each other. Surreptitious 
use of the motorcycle is not an option. Will my being seen on a motorcycle undercut 
the arguments of well meaning and concerned parents mothers who are trying to keep 
their sons from maiming or killing themselves?  Will the poor mothers crumble or at 
least chaff under the weight of "but President Matkin has a motorcycle".  On the other 
hand by participating in a few group rides with the local biking community (organized 
by the local RCMP staff sergeant who is also a high priests group leader in my stake) 
I have been able to rub shoulders with certain people who don't normal frequent our 
Sunday meetings. So that's the dilemma, on the one hand it may be giving justification 
to a rather dangerous sport (especially in the hands of a 17 year old with nothing but 
wind between his ears) and on the other hand if I give it up I lose contact with a lot 
of good friends, some of whom I'm unlikely to see in any other context. 

But most importantly of all, considering the demonstrated danger, should I also avoid 
the use of stairs?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles

[Tom Matkin]

Mark,

You may think motorcycle exhaust
Is a sign of a soul that is lost
But to contrast this view
With Two Towers debut
Is a sign that your have your threads crossed.

Or to put it more logically, you have proposed a false dichotomy.
Whether or not one enjoys LORT movies really has nothing to do with
whether or not one wants his daughter to ride on the back of a
motorcycle. 

But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that
motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use
the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's
leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my
stake when they become available.

Tom

Cardston, Alberta
www.matkin.com


> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Gregson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: December 16, 2002 9:33 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
> 
> 
> > Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough
review
> here, what does the list have to say about a stake president owning
and
> using a motorcycle.
> 
> Speaking for the list as a whole (and I know that everyone is happy to
let
> me speak for them, or if not, they should just keep quiet about it) I
have
> to wonder about someone who rides a motorbike but is not a keen fan of
The
> Lord of the Rings.  Which is more likely to hurt someone: watching the
> Lord of the Rings movies or riding a motorbike?  Which is more likely
to
> lead to tatoos, long greasy beards and drinking of some kind of near
beer
> substitute?  Which is louder?  And if your daughter showed up at home
one
> day riding behind some guy on a motorbike, wouldn't you find yourself
> wishing she was watching The Two Towers instead?
> 
> So there you have it.  The questions lead to obvious answers.  The
list
> has spoken.
> 
> =  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =
> 
> 
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RE: [ZION] LOTR

[Tom Matkin]

Marc makes an admission of rare ignorance of things Canadian:

> 
> I don't know. Tom, Mark?


Turns out that Howard Shore is a Canadian and that he cut his composing
teeth on those old David Cronenberg suspense movies like "The Fly" and
"Scanners".  I actually own a 1/2000 share of "Scanners" although I
don't think I've ever watched it and I'm sure it never came to my
attention until today that it had a musical score.  I just looked all
this up on Google.  Well except for the part about my tax shelter
investment in Canadian movie classics, "Scanners"  "Hog Wild" and
something else starring Elliott Gould and Tatum O'Neal that I forget and
no one else remembers either.  Sadly the residuals stopped rolling in a
long time ago. Long before the capital investment was recovered even, if
you can believe it. Anyway I guess this connection means that Howard and
I are practically like brothers, since we are both Canadians and have
such a deep interest in the cinematic arts. So I recant my prior
disinterest in the LOTR movies. Ya gotta love 'em fer the music, if
nothing else, eh? And is my memory on this right or have I forgotten
this too, wasn't the LOTR music really loud? Loud enough to blow the top
right off of your head maybe?  Ooops, that's the plot line for
"Scanners".  My mistake.


Tom

> 
> "John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> 
> > Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord
of
> the
> > Rings, is a Canadian?  Regardless, my hat is off to him.  The music
is
> one
> > of the best things about the movie.  Of course, that is just my
humble
> > opinion. --JWR
> >
> 
> --
> Marc A. Schindler
> Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
> 
> "Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more
> people
> see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield
> 
> Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
> author
> solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
> employer,
> nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Tom Matkin]

Mij wrote:

>The idea, as Joseph Smith might say, "feels good" to
> me. 

Didn't Joseph talk about how truth "tasted" good to him?  That was
provocative enough for me to remember it. Maybe he said "feels good"
too.


Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44, p.354

Quote (emphasis added):

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself,
finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more
intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a
privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God
places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to
institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be
exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another,
and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is
requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

This is good doctrine. It *tastes good*. I can *taste* the principles of
eternal life, and so can you. They are given to my by the revelations of
Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal
life as they are given to me, *you taste them*, and I know that you
believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also *taste*
the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of
these things which were given my by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you
are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more.
 
Close Quote

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Unsolicited, irrelevant opinion

[Tom Matkin]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:
> IMO:
> 
> Topica is no worse than many other free mailing-list services, and is 
> better than many. Its downtime is actually relatively small, all things 
> considered. Zion has a history on Topica that now stretches back three 
> and a half years -- quite a long time in Internet-speak. Finally, if the 
> 
> Topica Zion list is abandoned and deleted, all messages in the archive 
> will be lost. I know of no good way to retrieve those from Topica 
> beforehand. Now perhaps I overestimate the worth of those archives; I 
> just know I find them useful. Personally, I'd rather stay with Topica, 
> and probably will not move over with the list. But that's just my 
> opinion, not worth the electrons it's printed with.
> 
> Stephen
> 
> 
> 

I don't know how reliable Topica is in relation to other list servers, 
but I do think that there is a way to save the archives on your hard 
drive.  Using a little known program called Internet Explorer you add 
the zion messages link to your "favorites" and then save it "off-line".  
Use the customize options.  I'd like to do this myself before JWR pulls 
the plug on Topica.  But I'm 800 miles from my computer and won't be 
able to do this for at least another week.  Could be too late to do it 
by then.

Also.  How smart is a listserver that won't accept 4 letter words as 
list names? A lot of people these days don't know how to use anything 
else.

Tom

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[ZION] Starts With G

[Tom Matkin]

Think of how many things that start with G need to be taught (learned?).

There is so much to learn about "God", just as much to know about "good"
or "goodness". What about "gratitude", "grace", "guilt", "gentleness",
or "glory".  

And there are things like "gambling" and "gossip". I have something to
say about them.  What is wrong with gambling?  I know it's trying to get
something for nothing, at least that's what we are told.  But what's so
wrong with that? Besides it isn't strictly true.  The gambler does offer
something, actually usually a lot more than he gets.  And he certainly
accepts risk. I guess one drawback to gambling is that it seems to be
addictive and win or lose it leads to other undesirable things.  The
winner is proud, for absolutely no good reason.  The worst sort of
pride.  The loser is distraught, for very good reason. The worst sort of
grief. And the loser sometimes tries to cover his or her losses by
stealing or other sad things. You read about that in the paper everyday.
"Bookkeeper at Laundry Indicted for Fraud - Stole over $100,000 to try
to make up for Vegas binges". But really the worst thing about gambling
is that it steals your hope from where it belongs.  People who buy
lottery tickets or bet the horses or the football pools do it because
they are hoping it will make them happy.  They place their hope on that
winning number to make this life less miserable. This robs them of the
initiative to do the real things that bring happiness, like living the
gospel with exactness and drawing nearer to God. Our hope should be in
Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, not in Friday's 6-49 draw. Where your
(hope for) treasure is, there will your heart be also. You can't serve
God and the Lottery You get the idea. That's why I think gambling is
a pernicious evil, it presents a destructive counterfeit method of
finding relief from the troubles of this world.

What else is wrong with gambling?

I'll write about gossip another time.  Maybe later today. And gladness,
grudges, guile, gospel, gifts, genealogy, guidance and gross.

Nice to be back. Natasha kicked me off Zion on her own back near the end
of that brouhaha with George and I could never find the list again. My
version of Topica didn't even show Zion as a place. When Natasha
banishes you she does it right. I did find George again but lost Jim.
Jim stayed right here, right? 

Think about gird, gathering, and gulf. Ah yes, G is where it's at.
There's so much to talk about, and we haven't even considered the words
that begin with "eh".  

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Starts With G

[Tom Matkin]

> Don't forget George while you are at it, Tom.  I hope that it will be in
the
> good column,
>
> George

Of course!  G is for George. George the good. Or - Good Old George. Yes
Jesus love you. You know that, and not just because the bible tells you so.
Have you shared your recent experiences with this list George?  I was trying
so hard to be good and stay under the 5 post minimum on FAIR that I didn't
say there how wonderful it was to hear of your blessings. We know you are
anxious to get up there and count the degrees of glory and any sub kingdoms
for yourself, but it was great to find out that your inevitable has been put
off for a while anyway.

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Mainstreaming Mormonism

[Tom Matkin]

> Harold Bloom, the noted literary critic, wrote in his book THE AMERICAN
> RELIGION:
>
> "It is weirdly true, in 1991, that the Mormons are as mainstream as you
> are, whoever you are, at least in terms of the religion of politics and
the
> politics of religion."

Where is the mainstream anymore.  I heard today that teenagers, in Canada I
think, smoke more pot than tobacco. So if pot smoking is mainstream we
aren't getting very close to it.  I hope.

In a political sense I haven't read Bloom's book so I don't know what he's
talking about, but one interesting problem shaping up is that the Church is
becoming very global and that is shaping everything that is done in the
Church and politicians in the U.S. tend to see their bread being buttered by
appeals to local attitudes and concerns. I predict that Africa will be the
next big population base for the Church after Central and South American and
that the North American Church will continue to shrink in proportion
dramatically.  So to answer your question in the Dangerous Book thread, no
the Church will not dabble in U.S. politics, anymore than it has recently.
Which is to say hardly at all.

The book is not particularly dangerous.  What will cause us trouble is if
the nation falls on hard times one way or another and we get singled out as
the cause of it.  The jewish whipping boy syndrome, changed to where
everybody's difficulties are seen to be caused by Mormons and politicians
can win votes by fanning those flames. Nobody reads books by literary
critics.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Starts With G

[Tom Matkin]

 
> At 02:50 PM 10/30/2003 -0700, Uncle Tom Presidente wrote:
> >Think of how many things that start with G need to be taught
(learned?).
> 
> 
> 
> how about galloping gruff gregarious goats?  gastric? grease? gangly?
> groovy? gravy? garters?  oops
> 
> Till

Or to put it another way:

Should gregarious galloping garters
Be considered by us just for starters?
Or should greasy gravy
Be our first potpourri
As we talk about "G" in John's Charters?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: October 31, 2003 11:05 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
> 
> 
> 99,997 ignored antagonists
> By Doug Robinson
> Deseret Morning News
> 
> 
>Like a lot of people, you're probably still trying to make
sense
> of the ongoing debate regarding the street preachers and the stormin'
> Mormons.

Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest
in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all
men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto
wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the
Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him
drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he
maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on
the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even
the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do
not even the publicans so?

I have walked past those "preachers" at the gates of the Conference
Centre and have been tested to just walk on by and leave vengeance to
God. Everything in the media patterns an aggressive response - well
everything since that strange western TV series years ago where
"Grasshopper" (David Carradine as Caine) was supposed to take all kinds
of abuse, although it seems to me that in the end, even he, turned to
Kung Fu (after all that's what the series was called) to solve his
problems, his pacifism usually was what got him into trouble.

If we continue to resist evil with good we will never be mainstream.

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out

[Tom Matkin]

- Original Message -
From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 6:14 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out


>
> Returning good for evil is an intriguing idea.  But the suggestion in
> this context brings more questions than it seems to answer.
>
>
I don't see it as raising so many questions. It certainly tests us in this
context and in almost every context. What context do you see the application
of  "returning good for evil" as being more appropriate?

The exceptions you raise, of Christ cleansing the temple, for example, must
be seen in the greater context of God's will.  Occasionally we are asked,
when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and only when moved upon by the Holy
Ghost, to take a more judgmental and aggressive response. Like Nephi  in 1
Nephi disposing of Laban.  The exceptions don't complicate the general rule,
which is to love your fellowman at all times and to treat him as though he
has great worth (D&C 18) even when his current behavior seems to contradict
that designation. And Paul seems to add, especially when his behavior shows
questionable worth on his part. (Romans 12.)

Returning love to those who mistreat us is exceedingly difficult and can,
when we have been severely or continuously abused, only be accomplished, I
believe, by an appeal to and the ministration of the Holy Ghost. But it's so
necessary.  We can't truly love God and hate our fellow men, because our
hatred puts us at odds with God's wishes. God's wish is to bring to pass the
immortality and eternal life of all men.  He wants us all to succeed, and
that means for us to get along with each other.  In an interesting sense
that's the whole of the gospel, at least it's the first great commandment
and the second that's like unto it.

Even when God has prompted aggressive judgmental action, it has not been a
green light to be hateful. Nephi did not take joy in cutting Laban's head
off, even though Laban had sought to take his life and stood in the way of
Nephi's need to get hold of the brass plates. Nephi's test here was one of
obedience to a very distasteful task. Not the sort of response that is
indicative of the phrase "punch their lights out". Of course if our urge to
"punch their lights out" is prompted by the Holy Ghost as a righteous
judgment and necessary in God's plan, then I guess we should go ahead. But
I'd check with the prophet first on that one, because these people are
protesting against the church as a whole and the response to them by
individual members should conform with the directions given by the prophet
of the church. Has President Hinckley issued a statement on the protests and
how members are expected to deal with them?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Starts With G "Garden"

[Tom Matkin]

Yesterday I posted a little note on "Gossip" but somehow Natasha hasn't 
got it yet.  If it doesn't make the list by Monday I'll repost. 

Today G stands for Garden. I thought about this as I was leaving the 
temple this morning after doing 3 endowment sessions.  Come to think of 
it the morning was spent by the time I left the temple, so correct that 
to 'this afternoon'.

Anyway G stands for garden.  That wonderful place where if we will just 
put the right conditions into place the Lord will provide a miracle. In 
a garden you must prepare the soil, water it, fertilize it and protect 
it from infestations of weeds. (One of my favorite rhyming axioms; A man 
of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds.")  And a 
garden needs rest.  Mine is resting under two feet of snow just now. But 
in a few months, if I do my part the Lord will produce the great miracle 
of new life and beauty (I'm a flower man as much as a vegetable raiser. 
Another verse:  Mistress Mary, quite contrary, how does your garden 
grow?) How does your garden grow? If you put the conditions right, God 
will provide you a miracle of new life and beauty.

Each of us is a garden waiting to produce beautiful flowers, sweet fruit 
and wholesome food, if we will just put the conditions right. Storms and 
droughts and whirlwinds may set us back for a season, but over a 
lifetime a lot of great produce can come from any well kept garden... or 
from any well ordered life that allows God to direct it.

Tom


"I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her 
executed at any time according to my own pleasure.  It gives me great 
comfort!" (The Little Princess)

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RE: [ZION] Catholics & Mormons unite

[Tom Matkin]

John W. Redelfs wrote:
> 
> I have mixed feelings about befriending other churches.  It seems to me 
> that we should befriend individuals and not false churches.  After all, 
> false churches teach false doctrine and in doing so they fight against 
> the 
> truth.  If false churches aren't the church of the devil, what is?  
> Maybe 
> nothing is, do you think?
> 


What's the alternative to befriending other churches? 

Actually the way the Church interacts with other churchs is purely the 
business of the prophet and the first councils of the Church. I support 
President Hinckely 100% on this one. It's his call. I note that the 
Church is independent of all other churches in terms of doctrine, 
programs, missionary work, ordinances, and other matters of theology and 
administration.  We tend to cooperate where we see a need that we can 
meet or where cooperation will strengthen a response to some 
compassionate or disaster relief. We try to be good neighbours.  For 
example the local United Church of Canada has all of its benches and 
most of its other furniture from donations from us. As we have had 
excess or older chairs or tables or whatever we have donated it to them. 
The local Lutherans are also helped that way.  The United Church had to 
renovate their building not too many years back and the LDS community 
was very active in the fundraising. I supported that completely except 
that we have one of our buildings in town that has caused us a lot of 
grief with some structural deficiencies and I proposed at High Council 
that we just give them our dud of a building and start over with a nice 
new one.  That got a laugh, but didn't happen.  Anyway I had the very 
real sense that my neighbors and friends of other faiths should have a 
place to worship that paralleled the beautiful buildings that we 
enjoyed.  Never mind that they can't get their act together to fund 
their own needs the way we do, it's still a shame that their buildings 
are of such a lower standard by comparison.  By helping with the 
fundraising we were able to adjust that disparity in a measure.  And we 
have made friendships that are marvelous in the process. These are just 
ordinary people, church going people, who haven't seen the light... yet. 
Last week the United Church minister called me up and asked if he could 
use one of our churches for a funeral for one of his members as he was 
afraid it would be too big for his building.  We found him a good place 
and offered all sorts of other support. In the end one of the speakers 
at the funeral was a former stake president who had worked with the 
deceased in the school system. It was a great day of cooperation and 
mutual respect. And I got to sing Amazing Grace in the South Hill 
Chapel. It doesn't get any better than that.

Tom

I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her 
executed at any time according to my own pleasure.  It gives me great 
comfort! (The Little Princess)

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RE: [ZION] Catholics & Mormons unite

[Tom Matkin]

George Cobabe wrote:
> 
> 
> Whoops - No attachments allowed.
> 
> Here is the paper:
> 
> The Only True Church
> 

Nice work George.

I especially like that you included this passage:

.> 
> Every serious seeker for the truth needs to ask what a testimony of a 
> living
> prophet would do in their lives? How would it help them in their daily
> struggles? How would it change and bless their life? The answer to this
> question tells why a prophet is so important as part of the ".only true 
> and
> living church upon the earth."
>.

and that while your paper did not shrink for the strength and uniqueness 
of our position it showed that we are friendly to, cooperative with and 
supportive of our sister churches. There is a great power in comparing 
what Joseph Smith said then and what Boyd K Packer says now. Things 
really haven't changed, at least from our point of view. What maybe has 
changed to a certain extent is that at least all the churches in the 
country aren't in an uproar against us as they once were.  Being a good 
neighbour has paid off over time. Witness the coalistion of Christian 
ministers in SLC coming together to criticize the street preachers 
behavior.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Starts With G "Gulf"

[Tom Matkin]

Natasha is still holding my Gossip post I see. For today I'll just 
dredge up an old poem that I wrote earlier this year.  It covers the 
Gulf subject quite well.

Sonnet 277 1 Nephi 15:28
By Tom Matkin March 28, 2003

Along each briny ocean beach and shore
There's straits and inlets, seas and sounds and bays
And also, everywhere, there's gulfs galore
They're quite the widespread geographic craze.

The Gulf of Mexico is one we know
The Gulf of Bothnia a rarer brand
And ev'ry map will almost surely show
A Gulf in Aden, Oman, and Thailand.

The Persian Gulf, just now, is really strong
The Gulf of Guinea never had a voice
But there's no greater gulf in word or song
Than that which comes from exercise of choice.

Between the saints of God and wicked ends:
The awful Gulf of Misery, my friends.

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Apostate Cat

[Tom Matkin]

John,

The version of my poem that you have posted was a reworked version by
Stephen Beecroft. The computer programmer in him could not abide my sense of
halting rhythm and uncertain rhyme.   I really don't care for his version
though and prefer my own which goes like this.

The Apostate Cat
by Tom Matkin

He prowls around
His Master's yard.
Searching
In the
Dark
and Dismal
Spots.

His prey is not
what a cat can eat.
But
Anything
That
Rots!

Proudly
to the Master's Home
he drags his
Useless
Prize.

The Master
Always
Disapproves.
The Cat,
He
feigns
Surprise.

Tom
- Original Message -
From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 6:36 PM
Subject: [ZION] Apostate Cat


> Since it is one of my favorites.  I dug this out of my archives:
>
> The Apostate Cat by Tom Matkin
>
> Through the yard on stealthy feet
> He prowls the dank and dismal spot.
> His prey is not what's fit to eat,
> But putrid things of filth and rot.
> To master's feet with feline moves
> He proudly drags his gruesome prize.
> The master always disapproves;
> The cat, he always feigns surprise.
>
>

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>
>

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[ZION] Starts with F "Gossip"

[Tom Matkin]

This is the post that Natasha is keeping to herself.  It will probably
show up a week or two from now:

I choose to discuss Gossip today.

I tried this out on FAIR and got no response, so I'm sure ZION can do at
least that well.

I stumbled across a three part test for sharing information about people
and sorting out what is appropriate to tell and what is gossip.

You ask yourself these three simple questions:

1.  Is this fact about so and so kind?

2.  Do I have undisputable knowledge of it, in other words, is it
true?

3.  Does the person I'm planning to share this with have a need to
know?

Setting aside certain special relationships of a confidential or ethical
nature (for example I can never share things that I learn in my law
office about people, even if they are kind, true and someone might have
a need to know. Likewise a nurse in the hospital has special ethical
responsibilities for what she learns... etc.)  But setting those things
aside the test is that if you can answer yes to any two of the above you
can share it. 

For example if it comes to your attention that so and so is pregnant.
That may or may not be a kind thing depending upon the circumstances. If
it's someone you know who has been aching for a child forever and your
source is good (it's true) then you can share that happy news with
others. But if this is about a 14 year old in your ward, you don't tell
anyone else, unless that person has a special need to know. Build your
own scenario, apply the test and then let me know about it, especially
if you think of applications where the test doesn't work. I'm trying to
figure out if it is reliable or not.

That's right. For today G is for Gossip. Of course the best test is in 
Ephesians 4: 

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in
righteousness and true holiness. 
 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his
neighbour: for we are members one of another 
 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that
which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto
the hearers. 
 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto
the day of redemption. 
 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil
speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 
 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another,
even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Paul certainly emphasizes the truthfulness and kindness part of the
test. The "need to know" part is just meant to deal with those rare
special occasions when unkind things need to be shared.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Wish List

[Tom Matkin]

> 
> Yes, I had heard.  In fact, I resubbed to Zion a while ago to express
my
> condolences.  I figured if we were making a "wish" list, though, I
could
> wish as I wished...
> 
> Stephen

Well, if that's how we are wishing

I'll bet Oliver Cowdery would be an interesting guy on Zion, and how
about Nephi? Sam would be a super lurker. 

And what about J. Golden Kimball?

And I think Esther and Ruth would be good.

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Starts with F "Gossip"

[Tom Matkin]

Subject: Re: [ZION] Starts with F "Gossip"


> Shouldn't someone change the subject line to "Starts with Z "Spelling""?
> 
> 
> 
> -- Ronn!  :)


It's a code Ronn!!nnoR edoc a s'tI
It's a code edoc a s'tI
It's a  a s'tI 
It's   G  s'tI 
It's a  a s'tI
It's a code edoc a s'tI
It's a code Ronn!!nnoR edoc a s'tI

Either that or I can't type!

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance

[Tom Matkin]

- Original Message -
From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 12:39 AM
Subject: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance


> Esperanza and I were reading the Book of Mormon this evening and I came
> upon a chapter that just doesn't seem to harmonize with current list and
> Church attitudes towards other churches.  Aren't we supposed to "liken"
the
> scriptures unto ourselves?  Sometimes it is pretty hard.
>

Without digging into my scriptures for the exact quotes, consider the
actions of the sons of Mosiah going to serve and live among the Lamanites in
a spirit of love and sacrifice.  Talk about cognitive dissidence.  Do you
think their friends, both the ones they had when they were apostate and the
ones they gained when they repented, understood them? Everyone was used to
fixing the Lamanite problem with war and these boys had a better idea.  I
think the current Church leadership has a better idea too.

Tom

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[ZION] Starts with G "Grateful"

[Tom Matkin]

Top ten reasons why I'm grateful not to be working in New Delhi

10.Those pesky monsoons.

9.  Those pesky cows.

8.   What those pesky cows leave behind.

7.One word.  Curry.

6.Plodding elephants in the bus lane.

5.Plodding elephants in the commuter lane.

4.Plodding elephants in the bike paths.

3.Too far to travel to the Stake Centre.

2.I'm unaccustomed to the heat.

And the NO. 1 reason I'm grateful not to work in New Delhi:  One word.  Monkeys!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3340136,00.html

Tom
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance

[Tom Matkin]

 Tom wrote:

Talk about cognitive dissidence.

Tom comments:

I wish I could say that this malopropism was intentional.  But I'm typing in
the dark here at 4:00 a.m. and the spell checker kept telling me to change
Lamanites to laminates and that's all I was thinking about at the time and
this got by me.  But it is appropriate in a discussion of the sons of Mosiah
anyway.

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance

[Tom Matkin]

->
> But the Book of Mormon is still the Word of God, right?  --JWR

Yes. And it tells us all about the sons of Mosiah doesn't it?  How they
received
a great promise of safety from the Lord for their mission of love and
service and how
they enjoyed miraculous success among a lost and fallen people by being
kind and loving and offering something much better and sharper than
the sword of war and contention.

The Lord warns us in the passages you quote not to settle for less, not to
adopt lesser creeds or accept for ourselves counterfeits to the real truth.
He does it forcefully. But there is ample evidence that he loves everyone,
that he wants us to love an serve each other, regardless of our religion.
He is Father to us all and values everyone. Certainly the book of Mormon
asks us not to touch the unclean thing and come out from the world and
gather as a covenant people, but that does not change the fact that all men
are brothers of the same spiritual father, and because of the gift of agency
no one can be forced to accept the gospel in its fullness.  So what's the
best way to influence a free agent. Love him.  Remember my own mantra,
whatever the question, the answer is love.  I think President Hinckley
operates like that.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance

[Tom Matkin]

> 
> Tom, I like the way you think. Although, all things considered, I'd
like
> to
> think President Hinckley argues to be in the world, but not of it.
Which
> is
> not a bad place to be if you can do it.
> 
> Ron

I agree with that, but I was obliquely referencing the exhortation in
Moroni 10: 

30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay
hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean
thing.
31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy
beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and
enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded,
that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O
house of Israel, may be fulfilled.
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves
of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness
and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace
sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and
if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny
the power of God.

There is very real necessity for the covenant Saints of God to separate
themselves from worldly things, if not the world, in a very real way. We
can't touch the unclean things, and we know what they are, without
trouble. Elder Quentin L. Cook touched on this in the last conference in
his memorable address: Are You a Saint? He defined what I meant by being
separate from the world. Here's a portion of that talk:

Quote Mode On:
The word saint in Greek denotes "set apart, separate, [and] holy." 4 If
we are to be Saints in our day, we need to separate ourselves from evil
conduct and destructive pursuits that are prevalent in the world.

We are bombarded with visual images of violence and immorality.
Inappropriate music and pornography are increasingly tolerated. The use
of drugs and alcohol is rampant. There is less emphasis on honesty and
character. Individual rights are demanded, but duties, responsibilities,
and obligations are neglected. There has been a coarsening of dialogue
and increased exposure to that which is base and vulgar. The adversary
has been relentless in his efforts to undermine the plan of happiness.
If we separate ourselves from this worldly conduct, we will have the
Spirit in our lives and experience the joy of being worthy Latter-day
Saints.

As Saints, we also need to avoid the worship of worldly gods. President
Hinckley has expressed the desire that "everyone might have some of the
good things of life" but has cautioned, "It is the obsession with riches
that cankers and destroys." 5

In 1630 John Winthrop set forth a vision for the new land (America) on
behalf of his fellow passengers as he sailed on board the Arbella. It
has become known as "The City upon a Hill" sermon. In the final
paragraph, Winthrop references Deuteronomy 30 [Deut. 30] and warns
against worshiping and serving other gods-particularly emphasizing
"pleasures, and profits." 6 In the recent past President Kimball
counseled that even homes, boats, credentials, titles, and other similar
pursuits can be worshiped as idols when they entice us away from love
and service to God. 7

The prophet Moroni, speaking of our day, warned about the love of money
and substance and suggested that we would love them more than we "love
the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted." 8

If we are to be worthy Saints, we should minister to others and adhere
to the Savior's admonition to love God and our fellowmen.

Separation from the evils of the world needs to be accompanied by
holiness. A Saint loves the Savior and follows Him in holiness and
devotion. 9 Evidence of this kind of holiness and devotion is
exemplified by consecration and sacrifice. President Hinckley has
taught, "Without sacrifice there is no true worship of God." 10
Sacrifice is the crowning test of the gospel. It means consecrating
time, talents, energy, and earthly possessions to further the work of
God. In Doctrine and Covenants 97, verse 8 [D&C 97:8], it concludes,
"All . who . are willing to observe their covenants by sacrifice-yea,
every sacrifice which I, the Lord, shall command-they are accepted of
me."

Saints who respond to the Savior's message will not be led astray by
distracting and destructive pursuits and will be prepared to make
appropriate sacrifices. The importance of sacrifice to those who want to
be Saints is exemplified by the atoning sacrifice of the Savior, which
is at the center of the gospel. 11
End of Quote:

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Is All Well in Zion?

[Tom Matkin]

> 
> 25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
> ---
> 
> Now just exactly what do these verses mean?  How do they apply to me?
How
> should I "liken" them unto myself?  What exactly is the Lord warning
us
> against?  Am I supposed to do something?  What?

Just off the top I'd say don't cry "All is well!" and don't be at ease.

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)

[Tom Matkin]

.>
> I always thought it was "twice and you're out" -- that is, you can
> repent of adultery once, but not twice.  I suppose this is based on D&C
> 42:25-26: "But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his
> heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; But
> if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out."
>.
I have had occasion to consider this scripture,  and interpret it quite
differently.  It teaches an important principle, but not the one proposed
here, IMHO. It does NOT read: But he that has committed adultery ONCE and
repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou
shalt forgive; But if he doeth it TWICE, he shall not be forgiven, but shall
be cast out."  You have to read it that way to get the result that a person
can only be forgiven once for adultery. (And even then it has a tortured
logic, because how can the first repentance be acceptable if the specific
conditions have, by definition, not been met? But more about that later).
In my personal opinion this scripture is teaching the rather obvious
principle that if the person goes back into this sort of serious sinful
behavior that person did not truly repent of the first instance. Notice the
"forsaketh it, and doeth it no more" condition on the first repentance. The
second or subsequent adultery makes a mockery of that.  So in consideration
of forgiveness for subsequent adultery the earlier sinful behavior comes
into play. The person comes before the Lord (and any appropriate
disciplinary council represent the Lord) with the whole burden of ALL
instances of adultery (or any other serious sin) when dealing with that
subsequent sin, because the first or prior instances were not truly
forgiven, nor could they be, because the conditions of the first repentance
were not met.  This is how I have understood and taught this scripture in a
number of very real disciplinary situations including those where I was
warning an offender about the consequences of falling back into
transgression.

I am not conversant with any actual numerical melt down on the possibility
of repentance from adultery.

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1

[Tom Matkin]

- Original Message -
From: "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1


> I would be happy to teach Mother Theresa about the nature of God.  Could
you
> arrange a meeting?
>
> George
>
I thought you were happy to recently avoid such an opportunity. Now you're
asking for someone to help you with the arrangements! Make up your mind
George. We want you to stay.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Starts with G "Green House Gas"

[Tom Matkin]

Swans are Everything, Everything I Wish I Could Be
by Tom Matkin, October 25, 2001

I'll bet a day will come some time
When swans will be considered prime
When long necked birds will rule the roost 
And man will be in deep decline.

With human influ'nce thus reduced
Economies will get a boost
And green house gasses pass along
Except for what a swan's produced.

And finally that true swan song
That one so simple, yet too long
About the wind beneath your wings
Won't seem so obviously wrong.

So every time Bette Midler sings
About the shadow her wing brings
I think of swans and gas and things
I think of swans and gas and things.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Starts with G "Green House Gas"

[Tom Matkin]

Ron Scott wrote:
> But Bette Midler on ZION? Oy vey!The last time I saw
> her live, she was strutting, singing and steaming before a crowd of
> nearly-nekkid men at The Continental Baths in Manhattan. The things that
> reporters have to endure to earn a living: sigh.
> 

Was she cooing "You are the Wind Beneath my Feet...er... Wings?"  that 
would have been an endurance contest.

Tom


"I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her 
executed at any time according to my own pleasure.  It gives me great 
comfort!" (The Little Princess)

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[ZION] Starts with G "Giving"

[Tom Matkin]

This isn't the way I feel today, but it's a sentiment that I understand 
about giving.

Sonnet 180 (I'm snuggled in a cotton batting bath)
By Tom Matkin, June 6, 2002

I'm snuggled in a cotton batting bath
My senses stuffed with wool and fire in one
A victim of some tiny microbe's wrath
My goose is more than cooked, it's overdone.
I'm tippy, wonky, staggering and faint
I'm cloudy, foggy, slow and overcast
I hesitate to make this a complaint
But now my eyes aren't focusing, they're glassed!
I could go home and take a proper pill
To put an end to notice of my pain
But if I did then how could I fulfill
My duty to extend this flu-like chain?

Tis better to be giving than to get
And so I'll put some others in my debt.

Tom 

"I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her 
executed at any time according to my own pleasure.  It gives me great 
comfort!" (The Little Princess)

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RE: [ZION] Beholder of Zion

[Tom Matkin]

Ron,

I'm not familiar with your work, but I get the feeling from this short
piece that the boy didn't really love SLC. At least not with his whole
heart. It is fascinating to him, eating at him, part of him, betraying
him, shaping him, annoying him and clinging to him like a familiar odor,
but he doesn't seem to love it. It's full of memories bigger than life,
distorted by a confusion of perception and reality, and he can't quite
ever seem to square the circle in his own mind. He's a *beholder* of
Zion, after all, not a *belonger*. Of course maybe that was the point, I
have no idea what Cee's love of Manhattan was really like either. 

Tom

> -Original Message-
> From: Ron Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: November 5, 2003 5:36 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [ZION] Beholder of Zion
> 
> At the present, I'm editing some short stories, columns, poems etc.
for an
> proposed anthology.  I thought some of you may enjoy this short piece,
> relevant somewhat to our discussions today.
> 
> A BEHOLDER OF ZION
> By RB Scott
> C2003, 1986
> 
> 
>   Cee's love for her Manhattan was not unlike Jed's for his Salt
Lake.
> As a
> youngster he lived near enough to walk to the center of the city after
> school and on weekends. Often, he would sequester himself in the back
of
> the
> vast oval Tabernacle on Temple Square while Alexander Schreiner's
fingers
> worked their magic over the five keyboards on the console of the
massive
> pipe organ. At times it seemed as if the performance was intended
> specifically for Jed, hiding out, alone with his imagination in the
upper
> balcony. There was something positively uplifting, calming about the
> haunting tones and accompanying reverberations that emanated from
those
> towering Sequoia-like pipes.
> 
>   On occasion, he slipped up the tight circular stairs that led to
the
> choir
> seats, which spread out like a hillside meadow between the forest of
> massive
> pipes and a furrowed valley of wooden pews, each one planed and sanded
by
> the callused hands of Jed's ancestors and their brethren. Sitting on
those
> benches, as he regularly had for general conference in April and
October
> and, later, for concerts by the Utah Symphony Orchestra, he imagined
> Paradise, communing face-to-face with one departed ancestor or
another,
> that
> God lived up the hillside, there in the hollows of those majestic,
> euphonious trunks of native pine.
> 
>   Four blocks from home, he played out a different, if equally
> fulfilling
> fantasy. On the gridiron in the stadium at the University of Utah:
five
> seconds left in his mind, he would race down the field, cut left
across
> the
> grain, dive as his outstretched arms crossed the goal line, snaring
the
> pass
> with his fingertips. The fans would be going crazy as his teammates
> hoisted
> him onto their shoulders; he had lived righteously, fought the good
fight,
> and now God, being just, had blessed him with a winning touchdown
catch --
> against BYU!
> 
>   Deeper into the sprawling campus he'd roam the university's old
> cavernous
> library, pulling books with strange-sounding titles from the shelves,
> selecting one or two of them to take to the his hideout in carrels
> sequestered, entombed deep in the stacks, reading for hours as if he
was a
> diligent graduate student gathering research for a Master's thesis.
> 
>   It was there he read that babies need not be cut-out of their
> mother's
> bellies; that Benjamin Franklin had been an incorrigible womanizer;
that
> his
> church's original prophet, Joseph Smith, opened a tavern in his
family's
> manse in Nauvoo, Illinois, and that his successor, Brigham Young, and
> members of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles once made regular use of
> spittoons,
> stationed like sentries at doorways leading to the holiest sections of
the
> temple. And, that many actually thought New York City was a quite
> wonderful
> place, not at all the horrific den of thieves and murderers and
hookers
> his
> parents and the local newspapers made it out to be.
> 
>   Right then and there he learned that perceptions often bear no
> resemblance
> to reality and that reality has everything to do with how one beholds
it.
> 
> 
> 
>

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> 
> 

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RE: [ZION] Death of the Dinosaurs -- Revisited

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: November 6, 2003 7:59 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [ZION] Death of the Dinosaurs -- Revisited
> 
> 
> Since this was the topic of an earlier discussion about a looming and
> lowering lunar orbit threatening the heads of taller dinosaurs, I
> thought it might be of passing interest...
> 
> 
That was one of our finer moments on ZION. Funny how we can hammer out
solutions to some of the world's greatest questions and the world pays
no mind to our brilliance, and then, over time, we forget it ourselves.
Thanks for the heads up (so to speak) Jim.

Tom

> 
> Experts split on dinos' demise
> 
> Though conventional wisdom among many scientists -- and newspaper
> reporters -- widely favors an apocalyptic asteroid ending the age of
> dinosaurs, one group of scientists remains decidedly undecided:
dinosaur
> experts.
> After examining surveys of researchers at various scientific
> meetings over the past two decades, paleontology student Keynyn Brysse
> of Canada's University of Alberta concludes that although most experts
> agree that an asteroid struck the Earth 65 million years ago, most
don't
> agree enough evidence exists to definitively conclude that it killed
the
> dinosaurs.
> Dinosaur research belongs to the field of vertebrate paleontology,
> the study of fossil remains of creatures with a backbone.
> Supporters of the impact theory include geologists, who study rock
> layers, and invertebrate paleontologists, who study the fossils left
> behind by shelled sea creatures. Members of those disciplines
> overwhelmingly agreed in surveys that the asteroid impact caused the
> mass extinction. But echoing past surveys, about 72 percent of a group
> of Society of Vertebrate Paleontology members surveyed by Brysse this
> year contended that the extinction resulted from a combination of
> volcanic and climate effects along with the impact. Only 20 percent
> thought the impact alone killed off the dinosaurs. The remainder were
> uncertain about any cause.
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love

[Tom Matkin]

To me  such worries have a familiar John Birchian
> ring to them, no offense intended.
> 
> Ron Scott

Some people (on this list even) are singularly unoffended by the taint
of John Birchism. Or so I've noticed.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love

[Tom Matkin]

> 
> And I'll take the "John Birchian" comment as a compliment--thank you.
> 
> 
> --
> Steven Montgomery
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

My point exactly!  Sometimes I read through all the messages before
replying and other times I just dig in and start pushing the send button
without reading everything. Guess which I did this morning?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Nehors - Humanism

[Tom Matkin]

> Subject: Re: [ZION] Nehors - Humanism
> 
> Kent Francis responds with a personal example:

I think if I'm ever adrift in a 5 man lifeboat and 9 other people I want
one of them to be you! We could find a way to make it work. Thanks for
sharing your letter and experiences with us. Are you new to the list or
a long time lurker?  

Tom

> 
>Let me introduce myself.  My name is Kent Francis and I
currently
> live in West Jordan, Utah.  I grew up in the Bay Area of California
and
> graduated with a Masters Degree in Cybernetics from San Jose State.  I
> worked for IBM and Control Data for 18 years and in 1984 established
my
> own computer software company.  I have 5 children (the youngest is now
28
> and so the fight has moved on to others).  I offer my experiences in
the
> hope that they may be useful to you in your attempt to teach your
> children proper principles, and your fight to protect them from people
> in the world who might do them harm.  Sixteen years ago I wrote the
> following letter to all my children's teachers as a result of the
> pervasive influence of Humanism in their schools, and the destructive
> techniques that were being used to destroy the value system that we
had
> tried so very hard to teach them.
> 
> 
> Dear Teacher,
> 
> When we lived in California and Connecticut we were exposed to
a
> new religion called Humanism.  I say "Religion" because on at least
two
> occasions the Supreme Court of the United States has judged it as
such.
> It has a "Manifesto" I and II (what we would call "Articles of Faith"
> which states that there is no such thing as "God", the soul, or
immortal
> salvation, and that the "Judeo-Christian" religions and ethic systems
> are obstacles to human progress. In the areas of sexuality, they
believe
> that intolerant attitudes cultivated by orthodox religions unduly
> repress sexual conduct.  The right to birth control, abortion, and
> divorce should be recognized.  Mankind is the result of animal
evolution
> and the ethic system which serves him best is one created by the
> principles of "scientific method"; there is no right or wrong, life is
> situational.
> 
> In order to spread the concepts of their religion, they have
> turned to the secular channels of information; especially the
> educational system. Their champions are well known.  John Dewey and
> Horace Mann, the "fathers" of modern education, B.F. Skinner of
operant
> conditioning fame, J.L. Moreno who designed socioprogams, role playing
> and psychodrama, Maslow who created the Third Force Psychology, Dr.
> Carl Rogers of sensitivity training fame, Dr. Lester Kirkendall of
> SIECUS, Dr. Albert Ellis a leading champion of pre-marital sex, Dr.
> William Glasser of Reality Therapy and "Schools Without Failure"
> programs, Jerome Bruner author of the M:ACOS program, and Louis Raths
> and Dr. Sidney Simon - designers and promoters of Values Clarification
> and Values Changing curriculum.  Lately the darling of educational
> circles is Lawrence Kohlberg of Harvard and the Center for Moral
> Education who calls for "cognitive moral development".
> 
> Because our children couldn't cope with the "brainwashing", we
> gave up our career and retreated to the religious and conservative
Utah,
> only to find that the local emphasis on education had allowed this
> atheistic religion and its values modification techniques to
ingratiate
> itself with many of the unsuspecting educators.  We were, however,
> pleased to learn that the Utah education code 53-14-4 and 10
> specifically prohibits the teaching of atheistic religion and requires
> teachers to teach honesty, morality, courtesy, obedience to law,
respect
> for parents and homes, respect for the constitutions of the US and
Utah,
> the value of honest labor, and upright citizenship.
> 
> Also it states that "the importance and necessity of good manners,
> truthfulness, temperance, purity, patriotism and industry shall be
> given as instruction in connection with regular schoolwork".  In
> addition the Hatch amendment to the US educational code specifically
> prohibits the use of these psychological testing techniques and
> practices without the express written permission of parents.
> 
> Because you might not be aware of these things being a part of
> the curriculum or teaching materials you are using, we would welcome
> an opportunity to discuss them with you at your convenience.  In the
> meantime, please do not expose our children to psychodramas, role
> playing, the values clarification program where they are asked to
write
> journals which are made public, or class discussions on the values of
> our home and family.  Especially to be avoided are moral dilemmas on
> who is to be chosen in life or death situations (10 people in a life
> boat with only room for 5...), advocacy of the new morality, and the
> supposed "rights" of students to govern their own lives without the
> interference of parents or other authority fi

RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love

[Tom Matkin]

> Strawman.  There are no such "far right" members still in the Church
that
> I
> am aware of.  And I know an awful lot of the "far right" crowd being
one
> of
> them myself.  --JWR

I'm only able to follow this logically if you are out of the Church now
John. Help me understand what you are trying to say?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

[Tom Matkin]

> 
> Between man and woman.  According to D&C 132, plural marriage is OK as
> long
> as it is authorized by the priesthood.  --JWR


Also given as a command to the people when the Lord wishes to raise up
seed unto himself according to the Book of Mormon. Jacob 2:30. Obviously
under priesthood authorization.

We aren't that far removed from that very circumstance.  I know a man
who is the child of an authorized polygamist. He, the man I know, is
awfully old, and his father has been dead for a long time. But the
connection is pretty close. My grandfather, who died just 15 years ago
was another child of polygamy. As was my grandmother. They had so many
half brothers and sisters that they never met some of them. But their
parents were participating in an honourable and most pragmatic exercise
in the origins of this church. The development of the church was
leapfrogged a hundred years by polygamy.  In my completely unverifiable
opinion.  Bringing it back now could set the church back a hundred years
too. Unless that's what the Lord decrees, in which case it's just the
way it is. However I have no sense of it coming back, certainly no
desire to see it. But I am curious how we are going to square the circle
of proselyting those corners of the world where it is in good standing.
But God has figured that out and he'll let us know when we have a need
to know. For now, those who insist on practicing it separate themselves
from the good fellowship and ordinances of the Church, and justly so.
But I'm fiercely positive about the divine institution of plural
marriage at and for the time and place that it was established. 

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Commies and Pinkos

[Tom Matkin]

Oh no.  Is this a confession?
>
> Cornell!
>
> Till

Tom the concerned. ;->
>
>

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>
>
>
>

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[ZION] FW: This is Me

[Tom Matkin]

-Original Message-
From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: November 7, 2003 4:59 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: This is Me

I wear hats. Fedora's, Pendletons, Straws, Outbacks, and the like. I
wear hats in a place where all the other men, and a few of the women,
favour ball caps. Even in their Sunday best they will sometimes wear a
John Deere cap... to the temple. It used to startle me a bit, but I've
grown accustomed to it. Others have had trouble becoming accustomed to
me in my black fedora, but ain't that the way it is, some of us never
sit quite easy in the saddle.

I should be more comfortable.  I was born here. My dad was born here, my
grandfather was born here, my great grandfather came here 3 weeks before
the main body of pioneer settlers led by the town's founder, C.O. Card.
(Hence the name Cardston). So this place is in my blood and in my bones,
it's my home.

I left Cardston to go to school and on a mission in France for the
minimum time. I was away for 8 years and came home a newly qualified
lawyer, with a wonderful wife and three young children (operative word,
young, although one of them would die of SIDS within a month of our
coming back to Cardston, which humbled and strengthened me more than
anything else in all my life) with the audacity to open my own firm.
That was in 1975.  I've been here ever since although I did have a
partner for a few years, but times got tough and he moved back to the
city to seek a fortune. There is still no fortune here to even bother to
seek. I have no business ambitions whatsoever. Every financial
investment that I have ever made has been a disaster. I enjoy my life,
but I have little of this life's things and I have no desire to have any
more than I have, so I'm happy.

Most of our kids are grown now. The caboose is only 10 though and that
provides endless enjoyment for his older siblings. I have a daughter,
our oldest, who owns the house directly next door to my own. That
provides me with endless opportunities to fix up and maintain another
house and yard. That daughter remains unmarried and has been teaching
school for about 8 years. She's the most valiant wonderful soul that I
know. And also, perhaps, as disappointed a person as there is on this
earth. She's the Young Women's president in our ward. My next son is in
Kansas. He's working on a PhD. in Public Administration. He has two boys
and a lovely energetic wife. They are too far away to my liking and he
has just started the program and will be gone for 4 years at least. Our
next daughter is married to a lawyer who works in Salt Lake as a
bankruptcy Attorney. They live in Springville just now but hope to move
to Bountiful soon so he can be more available to help his wife, my
daughter, with their 4 young children.  Young, again, being the
operative word. My next child is the colourful, vibrant and opinionated
Ginger. She's in nursing school and seems to love it. In a year she
hopes to graduate and go out into an exciting world of opportunities.
The next, coming after a 13 year gap, is the 10 year old, who loves
chiasmus and Sponge Bob Square Pants with equal intensity.

My wife Betty is a woman of marvelous spiritual gifts. She senses and
responds to others needs with uncanny and inexplicable ability.  If
there is a need, she *knows* about it without having to be told. It's
fun to watch, but it's hard on her. There is more need out there than
any one of us could ever meet. So she's always torn. She's a cub leader
just now, but has been president of every women's organization in the
ward at one time or another so she has some leadership ability in
addition to her high levels of compassion and perception. She's a
convert to the church, having been baptized right after her 18th
birthday (a parental condition). No one else from her side of the family
has accepted the church. She dumped the guy that introduced her to the
church, while he was on his mission, to marry me. I don't think it was a
character flaw, it was a brave act on her part, sort of like Nephi
cutting off Laban's head, it seemed wrong in most moral paradigms, but
apparently the Lord wanted it to happen, so she has never looked back.
And I was pleased then, and even more so now.

My hobby is trying out new hobbies. I've tried a lot of fun things, from
moto cross racing to rock polishing. I read the scriptures a lot, I
waste enormous amounts of time on the Internet, and I publish a weekly
family newsletter that has now been going for over 490 consecutive
weeks.  I do some singing, have dabbled in poetry, written a few songs,
acted in some plays and done some other writing for my own and other's
pleasure. I try to be faithful in the church and have served as a
bishop, ordinance worker, high councilor, seminary teacher, and a host
of other things.  Recently I was the assistant ward choir director

[ZION] This is Me

[Tom Matkin]

I wear hats. Fedora's, Pendletons, Straws, Outbacks, and the like. I
wear hats in a place where all the other men, and a few of the women,
favour ball caps. Even in their Sunday best they will sometimes wear a
John Deere cap... to the temple. It used to startle me a bit, but I've
grown accustomed to it. Others have had trouble becoming accustomed to
me in my black fedora, but ain't that the way it is, some of us never
sit quite easy in the saddle.

I should be more comfortable.  I was born here. My dad was born here, my
grandfather was born here, my great grandfather came here 3 weeks before
the main body of pioneer settlers led by the town's founder, C.O. Card.
(Hence the name Cardston). So this place is in my blood and in my bones,
it's my home.

I left Cardston to go to school and on a mission in France for the
minimum time. I was away for 8 years and came home a newly qualified
lawyer, with a wonderful wife and three young children (operative word,
young, although one of them would die of SIDS within a month of our
coming back to Cardston, which humbled and strengthened me more than
anything else in all my life) with the audacity to open my own firm.
That was in 1975.  I've been here ever since although I did have a
partner for a few years, but times got tough and he moved back to the
city to seek a fortune. There is still no fortune here to even bother to
seek. I have no business ambitions whatsoever. Every financial
investment that I have ever made has been a disaster. I enjoy my life,
but I have little of this life's things and I have no desire to have any
more than I have, so I'm happy.

Most of our kids are grown now. The caboose is only 10 though and that
provides endless enjoyment for his older siblings. I have a daughter,
our oldest, who owns the house directly next door to my own. That
provides me with endless opportunities to fix up and maintain another
house and yard. That daughter remains unmarried and has been teaching
school for about 8 years. She's the most valiant wonderful soul that I
know. And also, perhaps, as disappointed a person as there is on this
earth. She's the Young Women's president in our ward. My next son is in
Kansas. He's working on a PhD. in Public Administration. He has two boys
and a lovely energetic wife. They are too far away to my liking and he
has just started the program and will be gone for 4 years at least. Our
next daughter is married to a lawyer who works in Salt Lake as a
bankruptcy Attorney. They live in Springville just now but hope to move
to Bountiful soon so he can be more available to help his wife, my
daughter, with their 4 young children.  Young, again, being the
operative word. My next child is the colourful, vibrant and opinionated
Ginger. She's in nursing school and seems to love it. In a year she
hopes to graduate and go out into an exciting world of opportunities.
The next, coming after a 13 year gap, is the 10 year old, who loves
chiasmus and Sponge Bob Square Pants with equal intensity.

My wife Betty is a woman of marvelous spiritual gifts. She senses and
responds to others needs with uncanny and inexplicable ability.  If
there is a need, she *knows* about it without having to be told. It's
fun to watch, but it's hard on her. There is more need out there than
any one of us could ever meet. So she's always torn. She's a cub leader
just now, but has been president of every women's organization in the
ward at one time or another so she has some leadership ability in
addition to her high levels of compassion and perception. She's a
convert to the church, having been baptized right after her 18th
birthday (a parental condition). No one else from her side of the family
has accepted the church. She dumped the guy that introduced her to the
church, while he was on his mission, to marry me. I don't think it was a
character flaw, it was a brave act on her part, sort of like Nephi
cutting off Laban's head, it seemed wrong in most moral paradigms, but
apparently the Lord wanted it to happen, so she has never looked back.
And I was pleased then, and even more so now.

My hobby is trying out new hobbies. I've tried a lot of fun things, from
moto cross racing to rock polishing. I read the scriptures a lot, I
waste enormous amounts of time on the Internet, and I publish a weekly
family newsletter that has now been going for over 490 consecutive
weeks.  I do some singing, have dabbled in poetry, written a few songs,
acted in some plays and done some other writing for my own and other's
pleasure. I try to be faithful in the church and have served as a
bishop, ordinance worker, high councilor, seminary teacher, and a host
of other things.  Recently I was the assistant ward choir director when
Elder Hafen came to town and rooted me out of that cushy job to make me
the stake president. Fortunately my talents are more suited to stake
presidency things than to leading a choir. So a lot of people have
benefited from Elder Hafen's choice, not the least of which is th

FW: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

[Tom Matkin]

-Original Message-
From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: November 7, 2003 4:12 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

> I suspect we shall  soon be kicked off for daring to discuss this, but
> what
> the hey.
> 
> Where in 131 does it say this?  I read Celestial Glory, not the
Celestial
> Kingdom.
> 
> 
George,

This possibility was settled very nicely in favour of the consistent
teachings of the men in the first councils of the Church since the time
of Joseph Smith. In fact, as you know, Rene Krywult researched the very
question that you raise above and discovered that the use of the phrase
Celestial Glories as an absolute synonym for Celestial Kingdom has been
equally consistent. If it means something else in Section 131, as you
suggest, then Section 131 is the only place in Joseph Smith's frequent
usage of the term Celestial Glories that it doesn't mean Celestial
Kingdom. 

I asked and received permission from Rene to post his research here and
so it follows. As Rene reminded you George, we are not accusing you of
teaching or promoting false doctrine, we are concerned that your
flogging of this matter means that you are accusing the brethren of the
church of teaching false doctrine.  Section 131 is a seminary scripture
mastery for heavens sake. It is taught in the standard way in seminary
and institute and all correlated lesson manuals.  For someone to suggest
that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the
brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine. And, as I said all
those many months ago, one shouldn't have to defend the teachings of the
brethren from attack on the ZION list.

Here's what Rene found out in his research:

I tried to find out, if the claim that Joseph Smith may have used
"celestial glory" interchangeably with "heaven" (i.e. all three kingdoms
of glory) could be substantiated from other writings of Joseph Smith.

Doing this, I had a good look at JoD, and there I found the King Follet
Discourse shed light on the issue. Here it goes:

**
I could go back and trace every subject of interest concerning the
relationship of man to God, if I had time. I can enter into the
mysteries; I can enter largely into the eternal worlds; for Jesus said,
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14th chap., 2nd v.)
Paul says, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the
moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from
another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." (1st
Cor. 15th chap., 41st v.) What have we to console us in relation to the
dead? We have reason to have the greatest hope and consolations for our
dead of any people on the earth; for we have seen them walk worthily in
our midst, and seen them sink asleep in the arms of Jesus; and those who
have died in the faith are now in the celestial kingdom of God. And
hence is the glory of the sun. 
You mourners have occasion to rejoice (speaking of the death of Elder
King Follett); for your husband and father is gone to wait until the
resurrection of the dead—until the perfection of the remainder; for at
the resurrection your friend will rise in perfect felicity and go to
celestial glory, while many must wait myriads of years before they can
receive the like blessings; and your expectations and hopes are far
above what man can conceive; for why has God revealed it to us?
I AM AUTHORIZED to say, by the authority of the Holy Ghost, that you
have no occasion to fear; for he is gone to the home of the just. Don't
mourn; don't weep. I know it by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that is
within me; and you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you
in the morn of the celestial world. 

Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, p.9, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
**

Here we see Joseph use the expressions "celestial world", "celestial
glory" and "celestial kingdom", and as far as I can judge, his words
only make sense, if we assume that all three expressions refer to the
same thing.

So next, I started searching "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith".
There are 16 occurences of the phrase "celestial glory", one of them
being the KFD. The others are as follows:

"Section One 1830-34, p.32 
The inhabitants of this county threaten our destruction, and we know not
how soon they may be permitted to follow the example of the Missourians;
but our trust is in God, and we are determined, His grace assisting us,
to maintain the cause and hold out faithful unto the end, that we may be
crowned with crowns of celestial glory, and enter into the rest that is
prepared for the children of God."

"Sect

RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2

[Tom Matkin]

> I suspect we shall  soon be kicked off for daring to discuss this, but
> what
> the hey.
> 
> Where in 131 does it say this?  I read Celestial Glory, not the
Celestial
> Kingdom.
> 
> 
George,

This possibility was settled very nicely in favour of the consistent
teachings of the men in the first councils of the Church since the time
of Joseph Smith. In fact, as you know, Rene Krywult researched the very
question that you raise above and discovered that the use of the phrase
Celestial Glories as an absolute synonym for Celestial Kingdom has been
equally consistent. If it means something else in Section 131, as you
suggest, then Section 131 is the only place in Joseph Smith's frequent
usage of the term Celestial Glories that it doesn't mean Celestial
Kingdom. 

I asked and received permission from Rene to post his research here and
so it follows. As Rene reminded you George, we are not accusing you of
teaching or promoting false doctrine, we are concerned that your
flogging of this matter means that you are accusing the brethren of the
church of teaching false doctrine.  Section 131 is a seminary scripture
mastery for heavens sake. It is taught in the standard way in seminary
and institute and all correlated lesson manuals.  For someone to suggest
that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the
brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine. And, as I said all
those many months ago, one shouldn't have to defend the teachings of the
brethren from attack on the ZION list.

Here's what Rene found out in his research:

I tried to find out, if the claim that Joseph Smith may have used
"celestial glory" interchangeably with "heaven" (i.e. all three kingdoms
of glory) could be substantiated from other writings of Joseph Smith.

Doing this, I had a good look at JoD, and there I found the King Follet
Discourse shed light on the issue. Here it goes:

**
I could go back and trace every subject of interest concerning the
relationship of man to God, if I had time. I can enter into the
mysteries; I can enter largely into the eternal worlds; for Jesus said,
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14th chap., 2nd v.)
Paul says, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the
moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from
another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." (1st
Cor. 15th chap., 41st v.) What have we to console us in relation to the
dead? We have reason to have the greatest hope and consolations for our
dead of any people on the earth; for we have seen them walk worthily in
our midst, and seen them sink asleep in the arms of Jesus; and those who
have died in the faith are now in the celestial kingdom of God. And
hence is the glory of the sun. 
You mourners have occasion to rejoice (speaking of the death of Elder
King Follett); for your husband and father is gone to wait until the
resurrection of the dead—until the perfection of the remainder; for at
the resurrection your friend will rise in perfect felicity and go to
celestial glory, while many must wait myriads of years before they can
receive the like blessings; and your expectations and hopes are far
above what man can conceive; for why has God revealed it to us?
I AM AUTHORIZED to say, by the authority of the Holy Ghost, that you
have no occasion to fear; for he is gone to the home of the just. Don't
mourn; don't weep. I know it by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that is
within me; and you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you
in the morn of the celestial world. 

Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, p.9, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
**

Here we see Joseph use the expressions "celestial world", "celestial
glory" and "celestial kingdom", and as far as I can judge, his words
only make sense, if we assume that all three expressions refer to the
same thing.

So next, I started searching "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith".
There are 16 occurences of the phrase "celestial glory", one of them
being the KFD. The others are as follows:

"Section One 1830-34, p.32 
The inhabitants of this county threaten our destruction, and we know not
how soon they may be permitted to follow the example of the Missourians;
but our trust is in God, and we are determined, His grace assisting us,
to maintain the cause and hold out faithful unto the end, that we may be
crowned with crowns of celestial glory, and enter into the rest that is
prepared for the children of God."

"Section Two 1834-37, p.47 
Impressed with the truth of these facts what can be the feelings of
those who have been partakers of the heavenly gift and have tasted the
good word of God, and the powers of the world to come? Who but those
that can see the awful precipice upon which the world of mankind stands
in this generation, can labor in the vineyard

Re: [ZION] This is Me

[Tom Matkin]

.>
> Where do you get your hats?  Here in Ketchikan the selection is dismal.
Do
> you buy any of them on the Internet.  If so, what are some of your
favorite
> websites?
>
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===

I've done a lot of "window" shopping for hats on the web. There's lots of
sites, you can find them by searching for "fedora hats" on Google.  But I've
never bought any that way.  I just snoop around for them.  You don't find
them in big department stores or even in good men's wear stores.  There was
a western wear store in Lethbridge that had a little fedora sideline going
on, and I bought one or two there, but I noticed the other day that they are
out of business.  I bought a nice hat at Waterton Lakes National Park last
summer. I have a guy that runs an old time drygoods store in Cardston that
will order them for me and he's got me a couple. It's about time I put the
bee on him again I think.  I had to loan my dressiest fedora to an old guy
in the stake.  He had his hat stolen at church and he was so distressed
because of it that we started to fear for his life.  He's over ninety, so
his longevity is in question in any event.  He couldn't find a replacement
and he just went into a terrible funk, but the loaner hat has revived him,
and it's no problem for me, I've got others.

Tom.

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[ZION] Starts with G "Grief"

[Tom Matkin]

I wrote this about 10 years ago, but I still remember why I wrote it. 
Turns out the brass ring did swing back and I caught it (or it caught 
me).  It was worth the wait, but the point the poem makes still 
applies... in many cases. 

The Grief of Missing
by Tom Matkin

The grief of missing
The brass ring
As it swings
So very
Close
Is
Known
To us all.
We watch it swing
Within our
Grasp
And
In
An
Instant
It will fly away
Much further than ever before.
But as we study times
When magically
The ring
Was
In
Our
Hand to stay!
We must admit that many times
The happier
Chance
Was
In
Missing.

Tom

"I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her 
executed at any time according to my own pleasure.  It gives me great 
comfort!" (The Little Princess)

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RE: [ZION] The play's the thing.

[Tom Matkin]

Gary's idea is perfect.  To jumpstart the process you could base the
play on a nursery story like the three little pigs, Chicken Little or
the Matrix sequel 9. Teach them the nursery story then if the ideas
don't flow, get a video camera out, do some casting and turn them loose.
"Hey you, you're the goose, you over there, you are the golden egg
(remember to emote!) and you in the corner, you are the golden harp and
who wants to be Jack, where's our giant and the seven fairy princesses
and the wicked step mother and Toto and the wicked witch of the west?"

Tom

> -Original Message-
> From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: November 10, 2003 9:32 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [ZION] The play's the thing.
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you have the kids write one.  They can use their strength
inthe
> language to write it, come up with their own story line, and put it
down
> in English words. Then you can help them correct it, and then practice
the
> play.  In this way, they are not just memorizing a play, but actually
> using their command of the English language to translate, etc.
> 
> And if that doesn't work, the Mikado is always a good bet in English
OR
> Japanese.  ;-)
> 
> K'aya K'ama
> Gerald Smith
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/
> Freedom Forever
> 
> 
> Cousin Bill:
> Attempt to start new thread #3.
> 
> As many of you know, I reside in Japan, making my living by
> babysitting kids ... I mean teaching kids English lessons.  --
> One thing I would like to try to do is put on a program for these
> kids' parents to make them think that I'm actually doing some
> work.  I know that ELF and Tom Matkin have made reference to
> being in various dramatic productions.  I'm sure there are
> probably others as well.  Does anyone here have any ideas on
> where I could find simple plays (the operative word being
> "simple") that these kids with little English experience could
> learn and perform?  These would NOT by LDS-central, though for
> little kids I don't suppose there would be anything too weird.
> 
> I think my attempt to start a new thread is really stretching it
> now.
> 
> Cousin Bill
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] The play's the thing.

[Tom Matkin]

Gary expresses doubt: However, I don't know how you are going to
> get those awesome Matrix special effects to ever come out. I mean, it
is
> one thing to see them on the big screen, but in person?  

That's the essence of theatre.  You ask for "suspension of disbelief"
and you get it.  Is it any harder for an audience to believe that little
Sally is actually a talking chicken, or for someone to belief that
people can morph into other dimensions?  Actually I've never seen a
Matrix movie so I don't have the slightest idea what I'm talking about.
But then you probably already guessed that.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] This is Me

[Tom Matkin]

Jim offered:

This is the perfect gift for rendezvous black-powder
> re-enactment enthusiasts. Made in Canada.

Black-powder "re-enactments"?  Wazzzat? We wear those coyote hats in
church in the winter (9 months of the year).

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out

[Tom Matkin]

Stacy,

That was my point exactly. We will not be mainstream if we continue to
resist evil with good.  The mainstream response would be to resist evil
with evil. We are not conforming to the world in this, we are making our
way following the principles outlined by Christ.

Tom

> -Original Message-
> From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: November 12, 2003 7:40 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
> 
> Whoever said we were supposed to be mainstream?  Aren't we supposed to
not
> be conformed to this world?
> 
> Stacy.
> 
> At 01:20 PM 10/31/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: October 31, 2003 11:05 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
> > >
> > >
> > > 99,997 ignored antagonists
> > > By Doug Robinson
> > > Deseret Morning News
> > >
> > >
> > >Like a lot of people, you're probably still trying to make
> >sense
> > > of the ongoing debate regarding the street preachers and the
stormin'
> > > Mormons.
> >
> >Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but
whosoever
> >shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
> >
> >Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things
honest
> >in the sight of all men.
> >18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with
all
> >men.
> >19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto
> >wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the
> >Lord.
> >20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him
> >drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
> >21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
> >
> >Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love
thy
> >neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
> >44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do
> >good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
> >you, and persecute you;
> >45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for
he
> >maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain
on
> >the just and on the unjust.
> >46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not
even
> >the publicans the same?
> >47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others?
do
> >not even the publicans so?
> >
> >I have walked past those "preachers" at the gates of the Conference
> >Centre and have been tested to just walk on by and leave vengeance to
> >God. Everything in the media patterns an aggressive response - well
> >everything since that strange western TV series years ago where
> >"Grasshopper" (David Carradine as Caine) was supposed to take all
kinds
> >of abuse, although it seems to me that in the end, even he, turned to
> >Kung Fu (after all that's what the series was called) to solve his
> >problems, his pacifism usually was what got him into trouble.
> >
> >If we continue to resist evil with good we will never be mainstream.
> >
> >Tom
> >
>
>///
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> /
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> 
> 
> 
> --
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] Farinacci's Test

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: November 11, 2003 9:50 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Farinacci's Test
> 
> Come on!  Are you serious?  Some of the questions are appropriate and
some
> aren't.
> 
> Stacy.
> 
> 

Stacy,

This test is not serious.  It's a joke.

Tom
> --
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] Conversion

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: November 12, 2003 8:38 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Conversion
> 
> Social club?  That was farthest from my mind while I was converting.
In
> fact, my old church had doughnuts during the Sunday school hour and
people
> who just sat around talking.  Yes, it had degenerated into that.  I
was
> looking for something much more and I found it.
> 
> Stacy.

President Hinckley acknowledges the following need for every new convert
(and for the rest of us I suppose), a friend, a responsibility and
nurturing by the good word of God. 

To me those are the three things included in Moroni 6:4, where we are
numbered (fellowshipped or friendshipped or if your don't mind,
socialized) named (which is, for me, a code word for the process of
being given a call where our name is read out before the congregation
for a sustaining vote) and nourished by the good word of God (which is
the teaching and spiritual worship that we enjoy together as "meet
together oft" - following on in the next verse or two).

Does that mean we are a social club.  Well, in a sense yes, but a great
deal more than that. President Hinckley recognizes that socialization is
necessary as well as the spiritual and service components of the church.


Incidentally, one of the reasons given in training that I have received,
for the removal of missionary farewells and homecomings is so that the
objective of nurturing by the good word of God can be increased and
given greater emphasis. The homecoming and farewell model for sacrament
meeting tends, very often, to deemphasize gospel topics and focus on
individual and family issues that are exclusionary to those not in that
family or closely aligned with it. Too many shaggy dog stories about the
youngster now called as a missionary and not enough gospel teaching. We
get the same counsel about funerals a lot too. Which is one reason that
I speak at every funeral I attend in my stake. My point is to try to add
some balance between the gospel message and the celebration of the life
of the deceased. I started out only speaking when the balance needed to
be tipped, in my opinion, but later decided that it could never be too
much tipped in favour of the comforting and saving doctrines of the
resurrection and redemption through Jesus Christ, so I always have
something to say. But the family dinner after the funeral is sometimes
as comforting and important as the service and the sermons, so there has
to be some socialization, even if that means funeral potatoes instead of
doughnuts.

Tom 

> 
> At 11:17 PM 10/26/2003 +, you wrote:
> 
> 
> >New converts are not often full-grown in their testimony.  They
depend
> >somewhat on socializing and fellowship to support their faith.
> >
> >As do we all.
> 
> 
> --
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] Gun Control Impossible in the USA

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: November 11, 2003 1:04 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [ZION] Gun Control Impossible in the USA
> 
> All the talk of gun control is really quite besides the point.  The
fact
> is, the government in the United States couldn't control the guns even
if
> it could pass the legislation.  They can't even control the drugs.
This
> country is completely out of control, and until there is widespread
> national repentance things will only get worse.  --JWR
> 

John,

What are the correlating factors between gun ownership and illegal drug
usage that lead you to make this comparison?  Are you suggesting that,
like drugs, gun ownership is an activity used to escape from the
harshness or boredom of everyday life that is so highly addictive that
people are willing to lose or risk everything to pursue it, and
therefore it cannot be controlled by lawful means? If that's not the
case, what is the correlation? Or are you saying that laws can't control
anything because they can't control drugs? Or are you just trolling to
try to revive the always popular and divisive gun control thread?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Old Jeeps

[Tom Matkin]

John W. Redelfs wrote:
> 
.  Finally, we called Fred who 
> brought his old WWII jeep out.  Fred had better sense than to get down 
> into 
> the depression where the pinto and two tow trucks were stuck.  He stayed 
> up 
> on the ridge and let out his winch.  First he pulled out one tow truck, 
> then the other, and finally the Pinto.  Both the tow truck operators 
> were 
> so embarrassed.  They had tried so hard to get out of the depression 
> they 
> had badly damaged their trucks on the rocks, tearing off their mufflers 
> and 
> doing body damage.  It was late that night when all of us got home.  Boy 
> 
> were we tired.  And thank heaven for Fred and his old jeep.
> 

Hey, I heard that one and I don't even know Fred. It was told by  Harold 
B. Lee in about the same words:

Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye In Holy Places, p.186
You cannot lift another soul until you are standing on higher ground 
than he is. You must be sure, if you would rescue the man, that you 
yourself are setting the example of what you would have him be. You 
cannot light a fire in another soul unless it is burning in your own 
soul. You teachers, the testimony that you bear, the spirit with which 
you teach and with which you lead, is one of the most important assets 
that you can have, as you help to strengthen those who need so much, 
wherein you have so much to give. Who of us, in whatever station we may 
have been in, have not needed strengthening?


Tom

> Did you ever hear that one, John?
> 
> 
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we
> must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly,
> soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding." (President
> Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003)
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR 
> 



"I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her 
executed at any time according to my own pleasure.  It gives me great 
comfort!" (The Little Princess)

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RE: [ZION] "Mother" Teresa

[Tom Matkin]

> 
> The truth is, Ron, I don't know that much about Mother Theresa.  There
are
> a lot of good people outside of the Church.  Perhaps she was one of
> them.  I'm still convinced that the best people are inside the Church.
I
> have to believe that or discount the need for the gospel in the world.
> 
> 
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I'm not so sure the best people are inside the Church.  I know the
people in the Church who are earnestly striving to keep their covenants
are much the better for it and that those outside the Church would be
better off with the ordinances and teachings of the Church. We can only
be perfected through the ordinances and repentance, so our potential is
much higher than it is for those who don't have the Church. But whether
enough of us meet that potential... I don't know. I'm often in great
admiration of the good character and clean living of many people totally
outside the Church. These wonderful honorable (adjective chosen
carefully) people of the earth do it without the Holy Ghost, without the
teachings, and without the encouragement that comes with understanding
the doctrines. Many, I'm sure, have not had an adequate opportunity to
accept or reject the gospel.

Have you ever read Corrie Ten Boom's book "The Hiding Place". What a
tale of wonderful Christian people. Would that any of us could live as
well as Corrie, her sister or her father. I've always thought well of
Mother Teresa as well and don't understand the need some people have to
throw mud at her. Of course if I have a vested interest in promoting
birth control in third world countries I might see her as a threat. Of
course there are detractors for Joseph Smith, Gordon B. Hinckley and
even Jesus Christ had some strong enemies.

Tom

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[ZION] Starts with G "Gap"

[Tom Matkin]

I love it when a baseball diamond has a section of the outfield sold to 
"The Gap". I used to know what the Cumberland Gap was about, but it has 
left me. There's a place near here called Whiskey Gap, but there's only 
one house left there, and it's the old church now converted into a home. 
It's just 5 miles east of Immigration Gap, which never did have even one 
house, but was the place where the first settlers of Southern Alberta, 
coming from the south, crossed into Canada. A few people still cross 
there, apparently, although there is no legitimate border crossing 
there. Most of the traffic is in the night, I suppose.

People speak of "closing" or "bridging" the gap. Orthodontists, I 
understand, are dedicated to eliminating the gap. The only gap in 
scripture is in Ezekiel: 
Ezekiel 22:30
 30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, 
and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy 
it: but I found none.

I have no idea what that means.

President Benson said that in the true Latter Day Saint home there was 
no such thing as a generation gap.

John P. Grier (whoever that was) said that that "the biggest gap in the 
world is the gap between the justice of a cause and the motives of the 
people pushing it" I suppose he knew what he was talking about.

I could say what I think about the credibility gap, but I don't think 
you would believe me.

Some people try to study the culture gap between indiginous peoples and 
European Americans, but the gap all but precludes any significant 
acculturation or accommodation, according to some experts.

A spark can leap a gap, but probably not an alarming gap or even an 
ominous gap.

Some desperate people turn to a stop-gap solution.

Some apographical writings bridge the intertestamental gap.

Usually one is disturbed by widening gaps and happier about narrowing 
gaps.  But sometimes it's the other way around.

George Orwell wrote that "The great enemy of clear language is 
insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared 
aims, one turns, as it were instinctively, to long words and exhausted 
idioms, like a cuddlefish squirting out ink."

That fills the gap for me.

Tom

"I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her 
executed at any time according to my own pleasure.  It gives me great 
comfort!" (The Little Princess)

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[ZION] Starts with G "grout, grains and glue"

[Tom Matkin]

Ah - the joy of levels of meaning in a parable about grout, grains of 
sand and glue.

Sonnet III
by Tom Matkin - July 19, 2001

When setting tile and filling in the grout 
To wipe away each extra grain of sand
And clean inevitable messes out
I always keep a dampish rag on hand.
 
I've found that there is need to be in haste
To clean the imperfections that adhere
Lest they should set and ever after waste
By showing smudges where it should be clear.

Because when working in the dust and glue
There is no end to ways the sticky stuff
Can build up on the tiles and on you
And make what you want smooth back into rough.

The only hope for me to keep my tiling nice
Is in this good advice: Slop once. Clean twice.

Tom

"I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her 
executed at any time according to my own pleasure.  It gives me great 
comfort!" (The Little Princess)

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[ZION] Starts with G "guests"

[Tom Matkin]

"I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her 
executed at any time according to my own pleasure.  It gives me great 
comfort!" (The Little Princess)

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[ZION] Starts with G "guests"

[Tom Matkin]

I guess I hit the "enter" button too soon on that last post. Here's the 
meat in the sandwich.

Sonnet 133 (Some children live for only just a while)
by Tom Matkin, March 30, 2002

Some children live for only just a while
Mere visitors not really part of us
Perhaps they've proved themselves without this trial
Not needing but a touch of all this fuss.
It wounds us when they get their final call
We grieve and fret and feel the hand of pain
Invested as we are in loving all
It hurts, but it's our duty to remain.
We know they meet with glory where they go
They lose no blessings from their shortened stay
And leave their touch of heaven's love below
To spark resolve to live a better way.

So one day when our earthly stay is done
Brief guests and us can once again be one.  

Tom

"I just pretend I'm a princess, and that I could summarily have her 
executed at any time according to my own pleasure.  It gives me great 
comfort!" (The Little Princess)

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: Elmer L. Fairbank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> Yes, Tolkein has redeeming social value.  I have always been
fascinated
> with his characterizations and I thought the movie version did a
> reasonable
> job of bringing them to life.  Potter, on the other hand, while
> entertaining, reminds me a great deal of the Hardy Boys (turns handle
on
> crank for the next installment).  Has it's use, but ...
> 
> Till

I found the Tolkein movie that I watched (something about rings I think)
to be a tiresome road movie where the heroes kept getting into
impossible situations for no apparent reason and then being rescued in
the best Greek tragedy tradition by deux ex machina. The Potter stuff is
similar, but at least mildly entertaining, although the kids never learn
from their mistakes.  Well, at least Harry refuses to ever learn. His
scar hurts and so he tells no one and therefore gets into deeper
trouble, so the next time his scar hurts he's even more reluctant to
tell anyone. Duh? But as children's entertaining literature it's fine.
I just prefer reading Narnia and having the challenge of sorting out the
strong Christian symbols running around the outside of the storyline.

Tom

> 
>

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> 

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

[Tom Matkin]

The wise and venerable Till explains:

>  Realizing that it was satire really helped, I stopped being
> offended by the seriousness of some of the absurdities.  
> 

If that stuff is satire then why am I not allowed to guffaw loudly at
all the appropriate places (virtually every line) during the movies?
Those movies, to me are almost as funny as Airplane. But nobody else is
laughing, and those of the female persuasion in my household don't
appreciate my noisy enjoyment. What gives?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] The Return of the King

[Tom Matkin]

The ever commendable, praiseworthy, laudable, admirable, precious,
estimable and venerable Till wrote:
> 
> At 07:49 AM 11/19/2003 -0700, St Stephen wrote:
> >At 04:47 AM 11/19/2003, The elfen Till wrote:
> >
> >>Till gets in trouble for his obvious great mirth . . .
> >
> >And I always get in trouble for my obvious great girth.
> 
> 
> And Till started out in trouble with his obvious great birth
> 
> 
> Till, who grew up being labeled a mistake

But now is enjoyed for his obvious great worth.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] A View From Massachusetts

[Tom Matkin]

In 1968 I arrived in the French mission. It was August and the country
was in a terrible turmoil from riots arising from great labor and
political unrest. The mission was also in some distress as the mission
president had been in a serious car accident a few months before. His
wife had been killed and he had been sent state-side to recover from his
own grievous physical injuries. While he was away the missionaries were
basically left in the hands of his APs.  One of those was Mitt Romney.
That was my first introduction to him.  Soon after I arrived he pointed
out an article in the Church News about a certain Jim Matkin who had
received some award, scholarship or graduated at the top of his class
from Harvard or something like that. I acknowledged that the subject of
the article was my brother. Mitt expressed great empathy for me, telling
me how he also had an over achieving older brother. We shared some of
the highlights of growing up in that sort of shadow. It was a very
personal exchange between a very green missionary and a seasoned
missionary who had the unusual position of being a de facto mission
president at age 20 or so. He told me a couple of other stories and I
don't suppose he even remembers me, but I remembered him, both because
of his rather famous heritage and because he was kind enough to take an
interest in my personal circumstances.  Now the irony, of course, is
that my brother went on to do a lot of very important and public things
and I never have and Mitt Romney's brother has never come to my notice,
but, of course, Mitt has made a great mark on the political landscape,
and seems destined to make an even great impact before he's done.

So I follow his progress with some interest. 

In the spirit of the late Marc Schindler, I will conclude this post with
a further Shaggy Dog story about Mitt. Later on I learned that he had
been in one of the same cities that I served in.  Nantes, I think and he
told me this story when he came to visit. It seems it was winter when he
was serving in Nantes and outside of the apartment a cat had been run
over in the street and was mortally wounded and frozen to the cobble
stones but still suffering and yowling. So young Mitt decided the humane
thing to do was to put the cat out of its misery, so he took a hammer
and went out into the street to dispatch it. As he raised his arm to
strike the cat he noticed a crowd beginning to gather and by the time he
was finished there was quite an audience, and he supposed, no one
guessed that this was not just an act of supreme violence against a
defenseless animal. He told it much better than I have, weaving in his
Americaness in a foreign land and all that.  He knew how to disarm you
by telling a story on himself, that's for sure. I hope he comes out of
this gay marriage thing with some pleasant stories to tell. He's
brilliant, personable, and considerate, and the Lord trusts him.  At
least He did in 1968. I suspect he has the same characteristics today,
only more highly developed.

Tom

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Re: [ZION] Trial by Media

[Tom Matkin]

RB Scott wrote:

You mean, sort of like the OJ trial?

Ron
 

Which trial?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Trial by Media

[Tom Matkin]

-Original Message-
From: RB Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:46 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [ZION] Trial by Media



>-Original Message-
>From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 11:42 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [ZION] Trial by Media
>
>
>RB Scott wrote:
>
>>
>>You mean, sort of like the OJ trial?
>>
>>Ron
>>  
>>
>
>Which trial?
>
>Tom

The criminal trial

Can't compare that with Martha's trial.  Most of us saw almost every
minute of it, sometimes several times. True we had endless "spin"
commentaries trying to sort it out for us, but we saw the evidence.  I
also believe that the jury practiced "jury nullification". In effect,
they knew full well that OJ was guilty, but they chose to nullify the
prosecution for other reasons. Either they accepted the "race card" as a
trump to the actual evidence, or they nullified because they believed
the LAPD was unworthy of the conviction. Probably a combination of those
two reasons. How do you compare the OJ trial with Martha's trial?  It
seems to me that Martha had no defense and therefore put up no defense.
She relied on her reputation and a parade of celebrity supporters
sitting behind her in the courtroom to influence the jury.  The jury
didn't buy it.  It is also my understanding that had she admitted doing
what she obviously did - dumping shares on an inside tip - she could
have taken the high road by admitting her hasty ill advised action and
been fined and gone on with her life.  Instead she falsified her
records, lied to the investigators, and asked others to lie for her, the
latter being the most despicable of things. Of course, I have to state
my prejudice here.  I feel like her whole "branding" thing is big lie.
She comes off as this great expert that knows everything and about
everything and that can manipulate anything into anything.  She came to
believe her own fabrication and it rose up and bit her - in the end - so
to speak.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Obesity Obsession

[Tom Matkin]

Jim,

I appreciated your comments on this issue. Thank you for sharing your
research and conclusions. I think you make some very valid comments and
it makes me doubt the conclusions of the study.  However I do have the
sense that we are getting heavier as a group, at least in North America,
and that this does create some very important health issues,
particularly with diabetes and perhaps heart disease and certain joint
problems. Some of these concerns have helped motivate me to bring my own
weight into what I understand to be a safer range (certainly a more
comfortable range). Without going into any sort of prioritizing of what
is really bothering us, is there any basis for my observations and was I
wise to lose weight? In other words, do you think we are becoming
generally heavier and are we more prone to diabetes and other problems
with apparent direct links to obesity? 

Tom

-Original Message-
From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ZION] Obesity Obsession

Obesity Obsession
Friday, March 12, 2004
By Steven Milloy

"Obesity is catching up to tobacco as the leading cause of death in 
America," proclaimed Centers for Disease Control and Prevention chief 
Julie Gerberding this week. "Americans need to understand that 
overweight and obesity are literally killing us," added Health and Human

Services Secretary Tommy Thompson.


While it's not disputed that severe obesity (search) may shorten life, 
the real killer in this case seems to be the CDC's statistical 
malpractice.

The excuse for the desperate health warning is a study in the March 10 
issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association in which the 
CDC claims that poor diet and physical inactivity caused 400,000 deaths 
in 2000. That estimate supposedly represents a 33 percent increase from 
the 1990 estimate and approaches the 435,000 deaths in 2000 supposedly 
attributable to smoking.

Now it's been said that there are two types of statistics ― the 
kind you look up and the kind you make up. CDC's body counts are 
definitely the latter.

The CDC produced its estimates with a statistical ruse called 
"attributable risk" ― the fearmongers' method of choice for 
alarming the public with large body counts. Attributable risk (search) 
could be the poster child for the saying, "garbage in, garbage out."

Without getting lost in the depths of statistical formulas, the key 
components of attributable risk calculations are statistical 
correlations between potential causes and effects, like 
overweight/obesity and premature death. But just because 
overweight/obesity and premature death might have been statistically 
correlated in some studies doesn't mean that overweight/obesity has been

proven to cause premature death.

In the few studies that have reported correlations between 
overweight/obesity and premature death, the vast majority of the 
correlations are small, not statistically significant (that is, they may

be due to chance) and, in short, are unreliable. Reported correlations 
between overweight/obesity with premature death don't start to inspire 
even minimal confidence until the obesity in question is extreme ―

cases where you only need common sense, not statistical hocus-pocus.

Recklessly plugging unreliable statistical correlations into the 
attributable risk formula to produce sensational body counts can only be

described as junk science.

But you don't need to take my word about the folly of the CDC's 
methodology.

As the New England Journal of Medicine editorialized in 1998, "Although 
some claim that every year 300,000 deaths in the United States are 
caused by obesity, that figure is by no means well established. Not only

is it derived from weak or incomplete data, but it is also called into 
question by the methodologic difficulties of determining which of many 
factors contribute to premature death."

"Calculations of attributable risk are fraught with problems . [and can 
produce] a nonsensical result," noted the Journal. 

And if all this is too technical, just ask yourself this question: Is it

really plausible that the death rate from overweight and obesity has 
increased by 33 percent in the last 10 years?

Let's not forget that despite all the hyperventilating about our health,

the CDC reported last month (with much less fanfare) that U.S. life 
expectancy (search) ― the most objective measure of public health 
― reached an all-time high of 77.4 years in 2002, up from about 
75.2 in 1990.

So what gives? Why does the CDC insist on nagging us about our 
waistlines? Two reasons come to mind.

First, the previously mentioned New England Journal of Medicine 
editorial characterized the obesity obsession as an example of  "a 
tendency to medicalize behavior we do not approve of" ― that is, 
politically incorrect activities like over-eating, not exercising, 
smoking, drinking, and gun ownership.

Next, the public health establ

RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: March 19, 2004 1:52 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [ZION] Vote Now!
> 
> The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in
> Iraq.
> 
> A. Certainly
> B. Probably
> C. Maybe
> D. Unlikely
> E. Certainly not

E. Certainly not.  Democratic rule is a privilege that must be earned.
The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for them
any more than I can give someone else my own character or discipline.
All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the growth of
democracy.  In most cases those interventions seem to about as
successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Vote Now!

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: March 19, 2004 2:25 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
> 
> Presidente Tomas,
> So, are you saying that instead of trying to help them democratize, we
> should have just turned Afghanistan and Iraq into seas of glass, to
get
> the radical terrorists out of our hair?
> 
> Gary Smith
> 

Good heavens, what are you talking about?

Tom
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Matkin wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: March 19, 2004 1:52 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: [ZION] Vote Now!
> > >
> > > The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule
in
> > > Iraq.
> > >
> > > A. Certainly
> > > B. Probably
> > > C. Maybe
> > > D. Unlikely
> > > E. Certainly not
> >
> > E. Certainly not.  Democratic rule is a privilege that must be
earned.
> > The people of Iraq cannot have it given to them or established for
them
> > any more than I can give someone else my own character or
discipline.
> > All the USA can do is try to improve the circumstances for the
growth of
> > democracy.  In most cases those interventions seem to about as
> > successful as premature efforts interventions to help a chick hatch.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Gerald (Gary) Smith
> geraldsmith@ juno.com
> http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] My Five Favorite Fantasies

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jonathan Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: March 19, 2004 3:49 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [ZION] My Five Favorite Fantasies
> 
> >What will the future bring?  

I believe that my future will be glorious and wonderful. Much like my
past has been. But I can't really explain it as well as C.S. Lewis, so
I'll just quote him here:

"'Son,' he said, 'ye cannot in your present state understand eternity:
when Anodos looked through the door of the Timeless he brought no
message back. But ye can get some likeness of it if ye say that both
good and evil, when they are full grown, become retrospective. Not only
this valley but all their earthly past will have been Heaven to those
who are saved. Not only the twilight in that town, but all their life on
Earth too, will then be seen by the damned to have been Hell. That is
what mortals misunderstand. They say of some temporal suffering, "No
future bliss can make up for it," not knowing that Heaven, once
attained, will work backwards and turn even that agony into a glory. And
of some sinful pleasure they say "Let me have but this and I'll take the
consequences": little dreaming how damnation will spread back and back
into their past and contaminate the pleasure of the sin. Both processes
begin even before death. The good man's past begins to change so that
his forgiven sins and remembered sorrows take on the quality of Heaven:
the bad man's past already conforms to his badness and is filled only
with dreariness. And that is why, at the end of all things, when the sun
rises here and the twilight turns to blackness down there, the Blessed
will say "We have never lived anywhere except in Heaven," and the Lost,
"We were always in Hell." And both will speak truly.'"

 --C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, p. 69.

I choose to always live in heaven.

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey

[Tom Matkin]

> -Original Message-
> From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: March 19, 2004 2:37 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey
> 
> How many of you play a musical instrument?  How well do you play?  I'm
> curious about the musical makeup of the Zion list.
> 
> John W. Redelfs sings well, plays the piano fairly, and the violin
poorly.
> 

I sing a bit. Bass in my quartet, and I sometimes have to handle the
tenor when that guy doesn't show up but it's scary when I do.  I used to
play the flute and even blew the saxophone a time or two in a dance band
that I played with. I love to beat on my guitar, but I have peripheral
neuropathy in my hands and arm and I can't do it for long or without
suffering the consequences. I was never any good at it. I love the
harmonica, straight and blues. I'm not good but that doesn't stop me and
with the blues harp who really knows the difference? I think they should
throw away all those recorders in schools and teach the harmonica.
Doesn't the USA have about a million people in jail at any one time?
They could all be enjoying themselves playing the harmonica if they had
been taught in grade school. Do you ever hear anyone on death row
playing the recorder?

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Judging

[Tom Matkin]

I went with my 11 year old on a school choir trip today to Calgary for a
choral festival performance.  On the bus I listened to a CD tape of a
talk by Mike Wilcox called "Noah Blindness"  It has some interesting
insights into a number of things, including seers, and judging. He
points out that the guilty are always very quick to invoke the complaint
that they are being unfairly judged whenever their wickedness is
condemned.  The whole Abinadi vs. King Noah confrontation is based on
this reaction. Verse 13 in Chapter 12 of Mosiah is just a bit of it, as
the wicked priests protest against 
Abinadi's message:

And now, O king, what great evil hast thou done, or what great sins have
thy people committed, that we should be condemned of God or judged of
this man?

Tom

-Original Message-
From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 5:28 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ZION] Judging


This controversy about judgement is a straw man that is raised 
regularly.  It usually comes up because someone has suggested a context 
in which we clearly ought to pass some kind of judgement.  The 
always-ironic response from so many is so consistently and so stupidly 
predictable -- "Oh, but you're being judgemental -- you dare not presume

to judge!  Judging is _bad_."

The incipient irony is alway so deliciously bitter-sweet.  :->


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