Re: [ZION] Gods and Generals
> What about you all? Have any of you seen a good movie lately? I buy a > couple of DVDs every month, and I'm always looking for something good that > I have overlooked. My wife and I laughed (sinned?) all the way through "The Singles Ward". The critics in and out of the Church stomped all over the movie but I have not met anyone in the Church who did not think the movie uproariously funny. "The Other Side of Heaven" is fabulously good for the whole family. Again, non-LDS critics panned the movie but it is one of the better movies I have ever had the fortune to enjoy. "Charlie" was not so good although most members seemed to really enjoy it. This is one movie where I agreed more with the critics. The musical play was far better and in most ways truer to the book. I know that Jack Weyland was very happy with the movie but I believe that the director misstepped. I have really been enjoying my mega-set of the complete series "The Prisoner". There are 17 episodes of the best TV show ever made hands down and the mega set has them all. Of course, even though it is the best TV series ever done does not mean that everyone will like it. My wife doesn't sit with me to enjoy it but fortunately my fourteen year old son does. Try rottentomatoes.com to get a good take on a movie. The website sums up all the reviews of paid critics (i.e. columnists or professional reviewers from many publications) and gives a percentage rating. Since most movies get around 100 reviews or more, and since the reviewers are from a variety of persuasions you get a very balanced take on each movie. I find rottentomatoes.com to be seldom wrong. Then I jump over to screenit.com to see if I can watch the movie (i.e. no gore, sex or language). If it's good but unclean I either skip it or hope for a chance to see a version done by cleanflicks.com = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- http://www.operamail.com Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Sherlock Holmes anti-Mormon novel (was Re: [ZION] Dead List)
IIRC one of the very early (perhaps the first) Sherlock Holmes novels had a very anti storyline. Anyone out there who can either confirm or refute? Yep, and I've read the novel. "A Study in Scarlet" (1887). The anti-Mormon stuff is not the focus of the book but prominence is given to the notion of "avenging angels" i.e. members who kill selected gentiles and apostates (cf. our earlier discussion about "Danites"). Arthur Conan Doyle was merely reflecting current beliefs about the Church. This website, http://www.jesusjournal.com/articles/publish/article_110.html wants its readers to know that we are just as dangerous as we were in those "scarlet" times. Sensationalism and gullibility are still best sellers. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- http://www.operamail.com Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Knoppix
Some time ago Attilla the Elf was asking about Linux distributions. Well, I've recently downloaded Knoppix and I love it. It's on the top ten list at distrowatch.com. The Knoppix distribution is intended to be burned onto a CD (or you can buy a CD for a couple of bucks). This CD is then fully bootable and runnable _without_ installing onto your hard drive. So you can run Linux and really give it a whirl without having to go whole hog. When you boot Knoppix it automatically detects pretty much all your hardware - video, networking (including wireless), mouse, etc. On my old P133 HP Omnibook laptop it got everything except the sound which I easily configured later. Knoppix contains hundreds of programs so you can do everything you want to - word processing, spreadsheets, internet, play CD's (and DVD movies if you have a DVD player), scan, print and so on. I liked it so much that I installed it permanently on my laptop and completely erased the MS Windows 98 it came with. If you want to try out Linux but were ever afraid before you should just try Knoppix. You'll have a lot of fun. ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- http://www.operamail.com Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Danites
The Danites did exist but were neither condoned nor organized by Joseph Smith. They were bad guys. Anyone who wants to know more can either use Google, or if that gives too many leads to follow up then ask and I will post more. Danites were bad. Not Christian. Mistaken. Wrong. Not LDS except in name. Not acceptable. Also, not very long lived as an organization so they didn't do all that much damage. ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- http://www.operamail.com Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] I'm all shook up.
> It could have been be worse . . . > Massive tsunami sweeps Atlantic Coast in asteroid impact scenario However, other calculations show that for asteriods under one kilometer in diameter the tsunami wouldn't be unbelievably massive. The US Navy did a study on explosion-produced tsunamis and concluded that the effect would not be catastrophic in any case where the blast did not go all the way down to the ocean bed. Asteroids between 100m and 1000m in diameter might "only" produce normal sized tsunamis. On the other hand, larger asteroids (i.e. bigger than one km. diameter) would be a global disaster. http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/tps-seti/spacegd7.html ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- http://www.operamail.com Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Where can the dead go; was Curiosity About Alma 1:21
> This does bring up an interesting topic. On this list, several members > seemed to claim that you could not get to the CK if you didn't do you work > here on earth for yourself. I don't recall anyone even implying that. I think we all understand this basic doctrine pretty well: either you must be baptized and confirmed in this life or have someone do the temple work for you before you can enter the Celestial Kingdom. That's clearly scriptural and official Church doctrine. Some of us do have questions about the spirit world because we haven't heard of any revelations to clarify things. For example, since Mother Theresa was not baptized does she go to spirit prison? The scriptures do imply "yes" but I think there is room for interpretation. Since people live varying degrees of righteousness or wickedness they can't all be in the state of the wicked as described in the Book of Mormon; "in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them". We know, for example, that the signers of the Declaration of Independence appeared in the St. George temple demanding that their temple work be done. So obviously their version of spirit prison was not total as would presumably be the case with the truly wicked. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
> >Probably so. I would weep for your pitiful, ignorant state, but you're > >above my visual range. > > > Hey wait, those are my lines. John, Stephen's stealing my schtick. Can't > you make him play nice? Doggone it, would you folks just hold your horses please. Don't make me come down there. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race
> Hey, wait, that's my part! You'se guys can't be stealing my part ... > > > Till who even got a new costume for the next show In the spirit of Christmas, Till, I forgive you for tempting me to the utmost with your provocative statements. That's a most humble forgiveness, too. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] LOTR
Spoiler warning > > > > > > > Gary: Actually, his friend was Shelob the spider. I wouldn't call Shelob his friend. More like his master. > Gary: Actually, there are three known. The Steward of Gondor also has > one, which falls into the plot of the ensuing movies. Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure that the Steward's palantir is not made known to Gandalf until The Return of the King. So while it was known to the Steward, it wasn't generally known, which is how I took your question. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view
> NOMA is also very similar to what the 1P said in 1931 in the last official > statement on the origin of man: leave science to the scientists and religion to > the Brethren. So be careful of criticizing it just because it was written by an > agnostic. This is probably not the time to try this again, but not being known for great reasonableness and consistency, I'll try it anyway: Marc, what is God's view of science and religion? Does He separate the two? Does He sort of have a science hat and a religion hat that He puts on as appropriate? Of course, these questions are rhetorical, but I don't recall ever getting a straight answer from you on them. If you have answered and I've simply forgotten, would you mind refreshing my memory? The point that I and others on this list have tried to make to you but have seemingly failed to do is that with God all truth is one. There is absolutely no dividing line with "this kind of truth over here" and "that kind of truth over there". Granted, there are more important and less important truths for us here in this life, but even so, while the Book of Mormon is indispensible, so is the law of gravity. So it's all one with God. The concept of non-overlapping magesteria has no place with God. His knowledge embraces it all. And that's why some of us on this list don't care much for the notion of NOMA. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
> Or to put it more logically, you have proposed a false dichotomy. > Whether or not one enjoys LORT movies really has nothing to do with > whether or not one wants his daughter to ride on the back of a > motorcycle. Well, I got on the back of a motorbike once and it fell over. So I know that they must be dangerous. > But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that > motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use > the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's > leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my > stake when they become available. The list speaks: Wow, are you ever an enlightened stake president! I wasn't trying to say that motorbikes are evil but if it leads you to donate the LoTR DVD's to your members then something really good would have come of it all. Too bad my stake president doesn't ride a motorbike. Guess I'll just have to buy my own copies of the DVD's. In the spirit of the list, if anyone is going to be in Edmonton this Friday you can come watch The Two Towers at Silver City in the late afternoon with me. On the other hand, if you're going to be in Cardston before the snow flies (and it might never, the way this winter is going), take your motorbike along and have a ride with Tom. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
> Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, what >does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle. Speaking for the list as a whole (and I know that everyone is happy to let me speak for them, or if not, they should just keep quiet about it) I have to wonder about someone who rides a motorbike but is not a keen fan of The Lord of the Rings. Which is more likely to hurt someone: watching the Lord of the Rings movies or riding a motorbike? Which is more likely to lead to tatoos, long greasy beards and drinking of some kind of near beer substitute? Which is louder? And if your daughter showed up at home one day riding behind some guy on a motorbike, wouldn't you find yourself wishing she was watching The Two Towers instead? So there you have it. The questions lead to obvious answers. The list has spoken. ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Two Towers (LOTR)
SPOILERS, don't read further, warning, show off about to be exposed as a fraud, humbug and charlatan: > 1) What is Gollum's real name? Smeagol (no last name given). And he wasn't a hobbit, despite what many have said in their reviews of the movie. He was a hobbit-like creature, not an actual hobbit. His cousin was Deagol but his grandmother's name was not given. > 2) What is the name of the king's evil advisor? Grima Wormtongue (okay, I forget the rest of his names) > 3) What is an Ent? Too easy. They were originally trees. But back in the dawn of Middle Earth (or perhaps I should say back in the starlight) things could be woken up more easily. > 4) Who is Gollum's friend that helps him? He didn't have any friends. He _claimed_ to have powerful friends, meaning of course Sauron and his evil minions. They did help him escape the Elves but it wasn't an act of friendship. > 5) How does Frodo escape the tower? This was a little bit contrived on Tolkien's part but the Professor wanted to show just how nasty the Orcs were in that they couldn't get along at all with each other. I have to shake my head at the modern whiners who disparage Tolkien's depiction of Orcs as genetically bad. They apparently want Orcs to be redeemable because its just so specist of Tolkien to make Orcs bad by birth. Strangely, these same people do not try to redeem gorillas. > 6) How many palantiri are there total, and how many are known of by the > end of book 3? Hmm, I'm running through the Rhymes of Lore and I believe it goes: Seven stones and one white tree. End of book three: that would have to be two; Saruman's and Sauron's. I've forgotten what happened to the other four. Lost or destroyed, but how? > 7) What army does Aragorn raise to help him win a major battle? You are probably referring to the Paths of the Dead, but there are other things that could be argued. > My wife says no cheating by > peeking in a book for the answers, All straight from memory. It has been over three years since I last read the books. Grima had a last name that wasn't Wormtongue, but I can't recall it. Must be getting old. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: The Two Towers Anticipation (was Re: [ZION] Are any of you having proble
> >will hold near continuous showings of the "whole" movie (i.e. all three) > >as one movie. That will be about nine hours. Perhaps people will be able > >to pay for portions of the show. > > Have they ever done this with the Star Wars saga? --JWR I've never heard of it thought it's possible. But there's a big difference here. The Lord of the Rings was shot as one movie in three parts, and released over a two year time span. Star Wars doesn't fit that pattern. I can predict that at least at my house there will be at least one day of continuous showing sometime after the last DVD comes out. A snowy day deep in January would be perfect for it. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
The Two Towers Anticipation (was Re: [ZION] Are any of you having problems?
> By the way, am I the only one out there who is REALLY looking forward to > seeing "LOTR: The Two Towers"? Perhaps, but only because I am REALLY, UNBELIEVABLY looking forward to it. :-) While it does come out on the 18th, I count days until I will see it. So for me, it's ten more days. I have no suspense this time about how the movie will be. I know that it will be great because the first was so good and the continuity of scene shooting guarantees consistent quality. Predictions: 1.) It won't make as much money as the first one did (but will still make lots). 2.) It won't receive as much acclaim as a movie in and of itself as the first one did. It will very clearly be seen as the continuation of the movie and very incomplete on its own. No one will mind that, of course, knowing what to expect. Of course, the one year wait for the completion will just about kill the fans. 3.) When all three movies are completed, the opus will considered one of the greatest cinematic achievements of all time. It will be a standard against which all other directors' works will be judged. Maybe no one will ever attempt anything like it again. It will be considered a wonderful work of art that has substantially increased the value of the great body of work done over time. It will be canonical. The complete set of the extended versions will be a must have and no other series of movies will come close to the total movie experience. Not even the first three Star Wars movies. 4.) After next year's third installation, there will be some theatres that will hold near continuous showings of the "whole" movie (i.e. all three) as one movie. That will be about nine hours. Perhaps people will be able to pay for portions of the show. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Judge righteous judgment
If only this verse would put an end to the overuse of stating that Jesus told us not to judge. But alas, some verses and commandments just aren't too populuar. John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
> Regardless, in 1836 when the revelation was given, Alvin still had not > been baptized, but was considered by God good enough to be in a vision of > the Celestial Kingdom. This tells me that the man was accepted as a > 'true' Christian. I have no idea what God condsiders a true Christian (or rather, how "true" one has to be before one is "true enough"). Alvin was clearly a very good man. He believed Joseph Smith and encouraged him. Nonetheless your logic does not follow. The vision was of the future. If you saw a currently wicked person in a vision in the Celestial Kingdom would you say that they were a sufficiently good Christian? No, you would say that the person will repent sometime in the future and thus be admitted. Clearly, what Joseph Smith saw coupled with other revelation shows that Alvin would be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom because he was righteous _and_ someone would do his temple work. What do we know about being a true Christian? Not much, really, because God has never revealed any definition for "true Christian". He has given the requirements for entering the Celestial Kingdom, however, and if you want that to be your definition of "true" then fine. It doesn't mean that one is perfectly keeping all the commandments here in this life. By the revealed requirements in D&C 76 and elsewhere, there are probably very many living now who qualify. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] The Two Towers
(no spoilers in this email) Yes, I will be taking a few hours off work on the Friday after "The Two Towers" comes out to go see it. That way I can get in at the matinee price of $8.50 instead of the evening price of $13.50. Once again, I will be taking my oldest son. My wife wants to come to this first viewing with me. Last year I just went with my son because I didn't want her distracting me with a barrage of questions about the movie. What to do? Do I let her come with me to the first viewing? For those who have not read the book but have seen the movie, "The Two Towers" is far more action packed. Your senses will reel at the visual and aural onslaught. Not _my_ senses of course. I will be drinking it in with a large funnel. Since the second movie was shot at the same time as the first, the feel is essentially seamless. This is something never before seen in any major motion picture series. In fact, has any set of movies ever been shot in this way before? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] True Christians
> I recall Joseph Smith having a vision (could it be in DC 137?), where he > sees his non-baptized brother Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom. Alvin is > obviously considered a 'true Christian' even though he has not yet been > baptized. Joseph Smith had the vision in 1836 in the Kirtland temple. In the vision he saw his father, mother and Alvin in the celestial kingdom. However, his father and mother were still alive when Joseph Smith had the vision. Therefore, the vision was of the future, after Alvin's temple work would have been completed. No one enters the Celestial Kingdom without baptism if they die after reaching the age of accountability. This brings up many questions, none of which have revealed answers yet, so far as I know. What about good little children who die at 8 or 9 years of age? They are accountable, but if not baptized they must be denied the Celestial Kingdom until their temple work is done. What if they died in 320 B.C. and had lived in China? What is their current state? Are they still in spirit prison? Were they ever in spirit prison? A true Christian must follow Jesus Christ. Are Terrestrial beings true Christians? Wouldn't they know the truth of the gospel by the time they are resurrected? Surely they would believe in Jesus Christ and wish to follow Him. But since they didn't merit the Celestial glory, they must not have followed Him well enough. True Christians or not? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] consistent testing found to be a better predictor than charter sc
> The one fly in the ointment is that rural students fair much poorly. A quote from the report: "Alberta students did exceptionally well: Rural students outscored even the urban ones of all other provinces except B.C., Quebec and Newfoundland." So there you have it, folks. Albertan farmers are smarter than your average city slicker. Apparently my children's school, which is in a small town of about 1,000, scores up near the top academically. Others have noted this and swamped the school this year with requests to have their children attend there even though they don't live in the school district. The school had to turn away many. But I'm very surprised about Newfoundland. They have earned their reputation honestly, from my experience, so I'm flabbergasted that they scored so well. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Belated report of John's trip
You can't keep a good man down. John went down south but soon returned to the North, pausing only long enough to visit a few list members. Having just got back onto the list from yet another soft bounce, I may be going over old news. For those who haven't met John Redelfs but have been on the list for some years, you would recognize him if you met him. He is very much the person in the flesh as I have come to understand him via email. The revelation to me was just how talented his daughter Rebecca is. We could all brag about our children for days on end, but John does have something to brag about in Rebecca. She's quite accomplished by my standards; she draws, plays piano and guitar, and sings, too. Married for only eight months she is clearly very attached to her husband. And she impressed my daughter by being so open and generous with her talent. So the Redelfs were a hit at the Gregsons. John, please pass on to Rebecca my thanks for the sketch she did for Kyria on Saturday morning. Kyria was fascinated and delighted by it. John and I don't entirely see eye-to-eye in every respect. While we agree on doctrine, it's in the matter of tastes where we begin to differ, though not so much as might be expected. He likes blues and classical but I don't like blues at all and only occassionally dabble in classical music. I mentioned Prism as one of the rock groups I enjoyed as a teenager but I don't really believe that John will like them as much. However, Rebecca agreed with me that real maple syrup is far superior to the artificial junk we usually have to put up with. What do zion list members talk about when they meet in person? Some of it is a continuation of what we discuss online but we spent so much more time discussing family. I hardly every mention my family on this list because of some natural reticence but it doesn't take much to get me puffed up and going like an old steam engine. By the way, John, we saw Harry Potter on Saturday night in Spruce Grove. If you liked the first you should like the second. Contrariwise, likewise, I'm sure. The theatre has been selling out on Fridays and Saturdays for this movie. For us it's a great deal because they have a family rate: $28Cdn for the whole family, not just a weak definition of one (2 adults and 2 children). That's about $17.64US for 9 people, or less than 2 bucks US each. Compare that with the top of the line Silver City theatre in the West Edmonton Mall where you will pay $13.95Cdn each for an evening show. Fortunately, they have matinee prices of "only" $8.50 so I can view "The Two Towers" in all its splendiferous glory without breaking the bank. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Populations (was Re: [ZION] umbrella)
> in such a meagerly populated nation as yours? They might even outnumber > you! Is Canada a small country population-wise? I get bored and annoyed hearing about how "small" our population is. Let's get the facts straight. Populations of Some Countries (in millions) = 1.) China 1300 2.) India 1000 3.) United States 285 (yes, that's right, the US has the world's third largest population. That puts a lot of things into perspective for me.) 4.) Indonesia 231 5.) Brazil 176 6.) Pakistan 147 7.) Russia 145 8.) Bangladesh 133 9.) Nigeria 130 10.) Japan 127 So where is Canada in the great heap of nations? There are 235 countries, more or less - it gets tricky in some cases. 35.) Canada 31 That puts Canada in the top 15% of all countries in the world by population. So Canada is not a small country by population; it is only small compared to the US who just happens to be its nearest neighbour. (Have a look at this interesting graph of country by population size: http://www.geohive.com/global/gen_popsize.php ) Canada does have one of the lowest population densities in the world (about 224th) at 3.36 people per square km. Compare that with Bangladesh at 949 (12th) or the US at 29.77 (172nd). Oh, and as an interesting side note, proven oil reserves have increased over the past decade. In other words, the world continues to use oil at a phenomenal rate (75 million barrels per day = about 28 billion barrels per year) and yet the amount left over continues to _increase_ (from 1 trillion to 1.05 trillion in about ten years). At this rate, we will never run out of oil but will rather have more and more all the time. A barrel is equal to 159 litres (42 gallons). And the proven reserves do not even include the Alberta Oil Sands which have more oil than the rest of the world put together, one quarter of which is believed to be economically and technically retrievable. (BTW, Gary, I'm laughing with your jokes here, so this wasn't an angry outburst against this statement of yours. I just found it an opportune moment to go off on a tangent.) = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] The Lord of the Rings
I bought a copy of the Extended Edition DVD of The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring yesterday. Man, I can hardly wait to view the extra 30 minutes of screenplay. This movie will wear well with time; there's so much rich depth. Instead of growing out of the film people will grow into it. And to think that there are two more coming! When all three are finished people will undoubtedly consider The Lord of the Rings as one of the greatest film achievements of all time. The next two films in the set will likely be every bit as good as the first. And for those that like extra bits, this first Extended Edition is already the best DVD release of any movie ever. While I don't particularly care about anything except the extra screenplay, others will wallow joyfully in the additional two disks of material. ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
> In effect we've struck a devil's bargain -- raw materials and geography in turn > for huddling under your nuclear umbrella, so your son's actually not far off the > mark. I'd feel much safer without the umbrella, especially since 11 September 2001. No one has ever yet given me a list of the enemies who could attack Canada, let alone who would. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
> I'll leave Wednesday morning however early I need to. But > if I leave Cardston before noon on Thursday, I ought to be able to get to > Edmonton about 6:00 PM or even earlier don't you think? Sure, so long as the weather cooperates. It's dual lane divided highway all the way except for a small stretch out of Cardston. Also, dual line divided for about half the way between Edmonton and Prince George (Edmonton to Hinton). However, we have had snow for several days running now so you never can tell. It will probably be better if it's colder than now because then the roads will clear off instead of being slippery. If you don't need to go into Edmonton itself, take the bypass: Hwy #19 just north of the airport, then past Devon up to Hwy 16 (or 16A if you are going to Marc's). > Edmonton. If we could spend a night with you, that would be great. Sure, but wouldn't you rather stay at Marc's? The conversation would be much, uhh, livelier :-) Plus, he has a bigger library than me (but I'll bet I have more of the kind of books you like.) It's almost too bad that you aren't coming through in mid December (well, except for the roads) because then we could go see "The Two Towers" at Silver City. My calendar is marked. > road. Is the road from Edmonton to Prince George as good as the road from > Prince George to Prince Rupert? I haven't driven to Prince George, let alone Prince Rupert but I suspect that the road is pretty much the same on either stretch i.e. all weather paved with full services. The Edmonton-Prince George leg is probably better in foul weather because it is likely more travelled. > up here in the north country. The air is clean, and that is important to > me, not so much because it is healthier to breathe, but because it doesn't > muck up my view of the mountains. That is, if the rain ever stops long enough to actually see the mountains. Maybe you should get the VERILUX® HappyEyes? Floor Lamp: http://www.technoscout.com/general/product/product.asp?product=603&Prod_Name=Happy_Eyes_Floor_Lamp&site=85922 = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
> The temple > is closed on Monday, isn't it? I for sure want to do a temple session > while I'm there. It is so hard to get to a temple when one is in > Ketchikan. Your schedule probably won't allow for it, but you could attend a session in either Cardston with Tom Matkin, or Edmonton with me (and Marc, if he's feeling well enough). If you plan on an Edmonton temple session you will need to bring your temple clothes because there are no clothing rentals there. I presume that few if any small temples have clothing rentals. Cardston of course is a large temple and has both clothing rentals and a cafeteria. Architecturally, the Cardston temple is a great experience. It's one of the very few temples in which there is a different room for each stage of the endowment. I think that only Manti and Salt Lake are still like that. Maybe also the Laie Hawaii and Idaho Falls temples too. Driving times in good conditions === Cardston to Edmonton: 6 hours Edmonton to Prince George: 8 hours Prince George to Prince Rupert: 8 hours So Edmonton to Prince Rupert in a single 14 hour haul is just barely doable. I wouldn't want to try it without two drivers. Let's look at your itinerary: Provo to Cardston: 12 hours (Wednesday the 20th and/or Thursday the 21st) Cardston to Edmonton: 6 hours (Thursday the 21st or Friday the 22nd) Edmonton to Prince George: 8 hours (Friday the 22nd or Saturday the 23rd) Prince George to Prince Rupert: 8 hours (Saturday the 23rd or Sunday the 24th) Okay, so as long as you leave Provo no later than Thursday morning you should be fine. You can stay at Tom's place and either Marc or my place for two of the three or four nights and that will help the pocketbook. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
> do what we can to accommodate you. I'm probably the closest to the highway you'll > be on (the Yellowhead) but Mark's not too far off, and That's right. It's a fifteen minute drive from my house to the highway, John, so call me when you get to the little white church by the overpass and I'll swing down to see you. Unless it's snowing hard, in which case it will take longer because I'll have to hitch up the dog sled. I can get to Marc's house in less than twenty-five minutes so let me know when you need me to go straighten him out. Let me know if you do decide to pass through. I'd be delighted to meet you. It'll be a little late for barbequed beef but we can roast some Alberta prime in the oven. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
> Right. Uh huh. Sure. I don't think so. There was no credible threat of > the use nukes by the US in the Korean War, and no threat whatsoever, other > than accusations of such from the left, during the Gulf War. I heard President George Bush state at the beginning of the Gulf War that the US had not ruled out the use of nukes in that war. That is a credible threat in my opinion. The threat in the Korean War was even more direct: http://www.centurychina.com/history/faq7.shtml "On May 19 1953, the Joint Chiefs recommended direct air and naval operations against China, including the use of nuclear weapons. The National Security Council endorsed the JCS recommendation the next day. Dulles, the Secretary of State was visiting India and told Nehru to deliver a message to Zhou Enlai: if peace was not speedily attained, the United States would begin to bomb north of Yalu, and US had recently tested atomic shells. " = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
> It is quite > clear that the use of nukes in WWII saved many lives, both Japanese and > American. I've already explained on this list some years ago that the nukes did not end the war. You can disbelieve it, but it's best not to read what actually happened in Japan if you want to maintain that belief. > When did we ever issue a real threat to use nukes since WWII? Korean War and Gulf War. (Unless you consider a "real" threat to be only a case where the US was minutes away from pulling the trigger.) > This brings up an interesting point, namely, if al Qaeda gets a nuke from > some rogue country, or one of the floating Soviet nukes, and uses it, whom > would we retaliate against? My best guess is that we would not retaliate Yes, I've wondered about that, too. When (not if) Manhatten is nuked, what will the US response be? I assume that it will be by terrorists. > I also disagree with your last statement about war. The Church stays out of > things like that. No, as already posted on this list the Church leaders have made statements about the rightness of specific wars. As to what the scriptures say about it, well, that's been hotly deliberated for weeks on this list. We will have to agree to disagree. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
> Actually, contrary to popular misconception he didn't originate the idea, he merely >popularized it. It's now considered fairly mainstream, and part of the "New >Synthesis". I knew he didn't come up with the initial idea when I wrote my previous post but I got lazy. However, I am correct in stating that Gould is not considered mainstream amongst evolutionists, and in particular, punctuated equilibrium is not widely accepted in evolutionist circles. This extract shows criticism of Gould's theories by other evolutionists: http://www.theexperiment.org/articles.php?news_id=1791 "After once proclaiming that Dr. Gould had brought paleontology back to the high table of evolutionary theory, Dr. John Maynard Smith, an evolutionary biologist at University of Sussex in England, wrote that other evolutionary biologists "tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with." Sometimes these criticisms descend into so-called "Gould-bashing" where the charges are as personal as intellectual. Punctuated equilibrium, for example, has been called "evolution by jerks." " This extract calls Gould a gadfly amongst evolutionists: http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/LIBRARY/JOHNSON/Brockman.html "I don't want to emphasize either the explicit or implicit dissents from Darwinism, however, because the most revealing remark about Darwinism in The Third Culture comes from a Darwinist of unimpeachable authority, George Williams. Williams is much less visible to the public than Dawkins or Gould, but he is more authoritative in the profession than either. Along with John Maynard Smith and William Hamilton, he is at the summit of the inner circle of evolutionary biology, in a realm where Gould is regarded as a gadfly and Dawkins is something of a junior partner. Williams and Hamilton earned their preminent status by pioneering the gene-centered Darwinism that Dawkins popularized with such success in The Selfish Gene." = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Best Arguments on Evolution
> I wouldn't suggest this for a beginner, but the best and most up-to-date general > actual textbook, meant for university courses, is probably the relatively new, > but very long book that Stephen Jay Gould published just before he died, "The > Structure of Evolutionary Theory." John, you should know that many proponents and researchers of evolution disagree with Gould. They consider him a populizer of a small group's point of view. They don't consider him to be mainstream, particularly on his theory of punctuated equilibrium. But I hope that you are serious about the challenge of studying the issue of evolution if you honestly expect to come to some kind of real understanding. There is so much material to wade through with so many questions about each "fact" that it could easily take a lifetime. On the other hand, the international space station continues to grow and the Internet is so very useful. Some things may be interesting whereas other things are useful and actually work. (Just taking another fun little poke at Marc; it wasn't aimed at you, John). = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
> I believe that sometime soon, someone will use a tactical nuke to take out a > carrier battlegroup - they have no other way of doing it. If we were to use > nukes now, then we would create a situation where we had sowed the seeds of > our own loss. We would have the moral low ground when that event occurs. Once the nukes start getting tossed around it won't matter who was the first to use them because "everyone" will be using them as just another conventional weapon. There won't be any moral high ground, just as there is no moral high ground right now in the use of tanks, planes, ships, artillery, grenades, rifles and so on. Anyway, the US has already used nukes in war and has also threatened further use so the precendent is set. Anyone using nukes in battle will justify themselves on the US precedent. It won't matter if you agree with them or not, they will use that justification. Not that justification has much to do with anything. The nukes will kill lots of people with or without it and the response will be extremely hard to limit. The genie came out of the bottle in about 1939 when the US decided to work on the bomb. (Well, of course the moral high ground is to not wage war except as specified by scripture and revelation.) = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
> I'm not going to say "Yes, of > course the actual event happened as described", because it really doesn't > matter. If it did, great; if not _so what_. I refuse to The Book of Mormon prophets believed that the water actually parted for the Israelites but then closed in upon the Egyptians. That's one reason why I think it matters. 1 Ne. 4: 2 Therefore let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses; for he truly spake unto the waters of the Red Sea and they divided hither and thither, and our fathers came through, out of captivity, on dry ground, and the armies of Pharaoh did follow and were drowned in the waters of the Red Sea. 1 Ne. 17: 26 Now ye know that Moses was commanded of the Lord to do that great work; and ye know that by his word the waters of the Red Sea were divided hither and thither, and they passed through on dry ground. Hel. 8: 11 Therefore he was constrained to speak more unto them saying: Behold, my brethren, have ye not read that God gave power unto one man, even Moses, to smite upon the waters of the Red Sea, and they parted hither and thither, insomuch that the Israelites, who were our fathers, came through upon dry ground, and the waters closed upon the armies of the Egyptians and swallowed them up? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
> Israelites? In what way can it be said how willing and capable God is in > helping you succeed in following His commandments? > > Dan: > They overcame the people of Jericho. I do not question that the city of > Jericho, or the people of Jericho were destroyed by the Israelites. God > promised that He would give that land to the Israelites if they would only > follow His commandments. They moved in, conquered the people that were > there, and God's promise was realized. _That's_ the principle, I'll answer Marc and Dan together here. Marc didn't address my questions but Dan does. So, Marc, what's your take on the Red Sea, the walls of Jericho, et al? Did they happen as described? Dan's answer has a hint of "When the Israelites say they crossed over the Red Sea on dry ground while the Egyptians perished, what really happened is that the Israelites found a path around on the north but the Egyptians got bogged down in quicksand." Dan, if the Israelites conquered Jericho without the aid of a miracle as you hint, then in what way did God help them? Didn't they just accomplish it all on their own? I hope that isn't what you are trying to say, Dan and Marc. If you really do believe that the Red Sea parted by the power of God, then I don't understand your point. I already understand the symbolism and the principles taught by that actual events. So I haven't disagreed with you. I just haven't heard you say, "Yes, of course the actual event happened as described". Instead, you seem to be waffling. As to Marc's use of Hebrews 11:1 - we only have faith in real things even though we cannot see them. So we really do need the events. Happening is believing even if seeing isn't. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
> - Is it more important that the walls of Jericho fell as described, or > that the people of the covenant were successful as long as they followed > Him? If the walls of Jericho did not fall as described in the Bible, then in what way were the covenant people successful? If the Red Sea did not part then in what way can we say that God's power is great and that He led the Israelites? In what way can it be said how willing and capable God is in helping you succeed in following His commandments? The events prove the principle. If the events did not happen we are left without any proof at all. How much faith would you have in a God who said "Trust me" but who never did anything that showed He was trustworthy? So far as I can recall off the top of my head, very, very few of the events described in the scriptures were just symbolic. They all happened. God really did create the world, create the Garden of Eden, place a truly and actually naked Adam and Eve there who did eat a fruit that physically changed them, etc. The rib and the serpent may be symbolic, but I cannot think of much else that was. The flood, the tower of Babel with its confounding of languages, the Jaredite barges - all real events. It's just as John said: real events can be symbols themselves. But they would have no power as symbols if they were not real. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Imagine that!
>An interesting note in my mailbox today... (spoken in Maxwell Smart accent): The old Nigerian bank funds fraud. That's twice this week. Apparently, what the Nigerians really want is to get out of Nigeria. That's why they want to steal your money. Or to dupe you into arranging a meeting with them somewhere outside of Nigeria. I read an article a while back about Internet access in Nigeria. It turned out that almost everyone who was using the Internet cafes had one purpose: to find a way to get out of Nigeria. But can it really be all that bad in Nigeria? http://www.africaphotos.com/stock/place/nigeria/lagos/ng11a.htm http://www.archis.org/nederlands/inhoud_archief/pix/02x1_lagos1.jpg ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
How would Shakespeare's sonnet run in modern language? Can it sound as powerful, or did Tolkien have it right, namely, that certain words have power that resonate with us partly because of their deep Anglo-Saxon roots? Let me not to the marriage of true minds -- Let me not to the union of loyal minds Admit impediments, love is not love -- Admit that there are impediments. Love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds, -- Which changes when it finds changes Or bends with the remover to remove. -- Or is swayed by death O no, it is an ever-fixed mark -- O no, it a steady mark That looks on tempests and is never shaken; -- That looks on tempests and is never shaken; It is the star to every wand'ring bark, -- It is the pole star to every ship Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken. -- Whose worth is unknown, although its angle be measured Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks -- Love is not a slave of time though rosy lips and cheeks Within his bending sickle's compass come, -- Fall in the shadow of the grim reaper Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, -- Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, But bears it out even to the edge of doom: -- But lasts even to the edge of death: If this be error and upon me proved, -- If this be wrong and shown to me so, I never writ, nor no man ever loved. -- I never wrote and no man ever loved. Well, it appears that except for the semi-obscure reference to navigating by sighting a star for "wandering barks" (i.e. ships at sea), the language is not necessarily all that archaic, at least not for poetry. Of course, a truly modern version of this sonnet would be unprintable, but cleaned up it might go something like: Can love last forever? And what if it did? Nights like when Tom called to say that he couldn't come back Because nothing felt the same anymore Seared her soul and she thought "Why not?" "I've found a younger, truer kind of love," he said. And she wanted to scream and scream at him like a banshee For knowing how a wrinkle killed the bloom of romance. She hated his guts forever but he never thought about it. Anyway, that's how I see it. Poets must be a distinctly unhappy lot. But then, I believe that they do sometimes accurately reflect the spirit of the times. (Tom, Elf and other present company excepted, of course). = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Jerusalem Temple
> restaurants in town, called Khazana's (Mark -- do you know where Audrey's Books > is? On 108th? Go about a block north, and on the eastern side is the restaurant Normally I would be able to see it just by turning my chair around because I'm on the 19th floor facing west. I'm only three blocks away (that's 107th street, by the way, Marc.) However, today I cannot see it because of the falling snow. Some waggish folks on this list might question my use of "normally", but we the living know better. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
- Stephen - Though this is off the main thread, it's an interesting side thread. I don't agree that "teacher" was a Melchizedek Priesthood office for the Nephites; the Melchizedek Priesthood was not generally held among the Jews, so I don't see why it would have been generally held among the Nephites, who were after all Jews and who were therefore under the law of Moses. === Moroni talks about teachers and priests. This is several hundred years after Christ, so the Nephites had the Melchizedek priesthood at that time and were not under the law of Moses. Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the law of Moses. Therefore, so state these same Brethren, the Nephites always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the ordinances of the law of Moses through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priest
-Larry- > Keys, where needed, are given to the person set apart for > a calling. He only holds those keys until he is released. -Stephen- >How about that? That's directly opposite to what a bishop told me years back. Thanks >for the clarification. I concur with Larry. An ordained bishop, if called again to lead a ward, even the same ward he used to lead, will again be set apart as the bishop of that ward and given the keys of a bishop. Obviously, he is not ordained again to the office of bishop. ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
> To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the Brethren have university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to have been mainly manual labourers. President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. President Faust: attorney (lawyer). President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of Religion. Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant to president of BYU. Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church commissioner of education. Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court justice. Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and investments. Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77. ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Voting and parties (was Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro)
> If one defines a good Democrat as being someone who works > within the party to bring about a better platform, select better leaders and > elect better office holders (those that would agree with church teachings), > then it would be possible to be a good Mormon and a good Democrat. Thanks to everyone who posted to help me understand the byzantine system of voting in the US (as opposed to the byzantine system in Canada or Australia - why couldn't we have a nice simple system like Iraq; there's one person on one ballot once every eight years. You vote yes or no. And he gets 100% turnout, too. Now _that's_ how to run a voting system :-)). Special thanks to those who explained what a "primary" is. I was beginning to worry that US members elected their Primary presidents. Bill brings up an interesting point. Is it a good idea to work within a party in order to change it? Presumably the answer is yes. What if the party currently supports every charter violating thing in existence? Just where does one draw the line? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Voting and parties (was Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro)
> In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall >the rules vary considerably from What? You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your "preference"? Is that true? And if it is, what's the point of it? Since your vote is secret, why register a preference? As to voting or supporting a party: I'm not sure that I follow what Elder Jensen was saying. What's the point of voting for a party if you don't accept their policies? The Brethren have always told us to study the issues and then support the candidate that best represents our interests or who supports the issues we believe in. If a candidate supports things that we are opposed to, then why would we vote for him or her? Okay, granted, probably every candidate supports some things that we are opposed to, but if a candidate supports many things we strongly oppose, why would we vote for him or her? I once worked with a lady from Malaysia. She said that theoretically they have democracy there but "something always happens to the opposition". She said that speaking against the government would get you into trouble. She was bemused when I told her that in order to be a patriotic Canadian you _had_ to speak against the government. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
> My question, then, is what is the answer? As far as I can see, there is no way to >run the gadiantons out of control short of causing a majority of the people to repent >and seek for rightiousnes. That is what the people of the Book of Mormon had to do. I agree. So it isn't going to happen before the Lord comes. All we can do is save as many as possible before the end. > I suspect that even if we could do that, we would still have to "wage war" with >these gadiantons just as the Book of Mormon peoples had to, once they are driven from >control of the government, as they will certainly try to regain control by whatever >means at their disposal. You raise an interesting question (hypothetical, I'm sorry to say). What _would_ happen if the vast majority of the people repented? Let's simplify by considering only two "levels" of repentance: a lesser form of turning away from evil, and the greater version of repenting enough to be baptized. 1.) The vast majority of people turn away from evil. To me this includes forsaking immorality, abortion, pornography, alcholhol, dishonesty, greed and so on. For example, Hollywood would lose money on every immoral movie. Abortions and divorces would drop to practically zero. Fathers would not abuse or abandon spouses or children, etc. However, people would still willingly serve in government, in the media, in the military and still have widely different views of how to do things. 2.) People repent and accept the gospel. All of the above, and more too, including actively following the prophets. In either of these two scenarios (lamentably, neither of which will happen before the Lord comes) will the end result be bloodshed? Let's assume that the Gadiantons and all the core supporters of present evil (e.g. the Hollywood producer who finances filthy movies) don't repent. I really have no idea what would happen. I guess it would depend on how quickly it happened, where it started and how desperate the bad guys became. How would a Gadianton gain control in a righteous nation? He could only do it by deceit. But once he had some power, how could he use it? He would be opposed at every step. So he needs partners in crime, other Gadiantons that have gained their power by deceit. Okay, so now they have a cadre of wicked men in power, opposed by the vast majority of people. That is, the people oppose what those men really want. What will they do and how will they do it? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Gratitude
I had a good Thanksgiving Day yesterday. I feel very grateful for this land of freedom and plenty I enjoy. I am grateful for my family and all the experiences it brings; the joys, the education, the strivings, the prayers, the opportunities, the contentment. Elder Haight said in the recent conference: "It's so easy in life for us to receive blessings, many of them almost uncounted, and have things happen in our lives that can help change our lives, improve our lives, and bring the Spirit into our lives. But we sometimes take them for granted. How grateful we should be for the blessings that the gospel of Jesus Christ brings into our hearts and souls. I would remind all of you that if we're ever going to show gratitude properly to our Heavenly Father, we should do it with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength?because it was He who gave us life and breath." ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
> Till is tired. Does that mean he is not worthy of awards? 8>)) Now don't start that again! Two more years, my friend. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
> So I will ask yet again: why Iraq specifically and not Pakistan? Pakistan is a > far greater threat. You have got to admire Marc for his tenacity. I vote for some kind of award for him for this constant call to examine just who needs to be pounded. John is beating the same drum with slightly different drumsticks. Both of them should get awards. But maybe not until they get answers. No one has yet aswered either of them. Everytime Marc says "Why not get Pakistan?", the reply is "Iraq is so bad" and everytime John says "The Book of Mormon is always about defense, never offense," we get, "The Nephites attacked so and so," completely ignoring the fact that the example used precisely supports John's argument. I'm just happy to see that neither Marc nor John is tired. You have to admire their energy. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION]
Elder Maxwell said in his conference talk: "The restored gospel is buoyant, wide, and deep?beyond our comprehension. It edifies, whether concerning divine design in the universe or stressing the importance of personal chastity and fidelity. Only meek disciples can safely handle such a bold theology." What happens when arrogant "disciples" try to handle this bold theology? ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Pakistan election (was Re: [ZION] War in Iraq)
-- Marc -- I said they'd win a majority of the seats set aside for general election, and that they have done, both in regional and in the national parliament. -- Me -- How have they won a majority of the seats set aside for general election? There are 272 general seats. 60 are reserved for women and another 10 are reserved for minority religious groups. That leaves 202 general sets. The fundamentalists have apparently won 14 so far, of 40 reporting. That is not a majority of all the seats and is not a majority of the seats reporting so far. ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Pakistan election (was Re: [ZION] War in Iraq)
> The first of my "prognostications" has come true: Islamic > fundamentalists have won the Pakistani election: No, fundamentalists have not won the election. Read the whole article and then read some other news reports. Fundamentalists have not won the election and will not control the government. My prediction: when vote counting is complete the fundamentalists will not have the swing votes. (Not that it would matter if they did, since Musharraf has veto power and dismissal power, too ). > When the military dictatorship there falls, we will be facing an Islamic > fundamentalist nuclear power. Why are you so sure that the dictatorship will fall? It's in a semi-transitional phase right now, so by definition it cannot actually fall. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Dove-breeding as a gospel hobby (was: Iraq and war)
> The US maintains that the actions against Iraq do not constitute a war of aggression, but are a defense of family and freedoms. Saying it doesn't make it so. Individuals are free to decide for themselves the justice of a particular action. If an American member feels that the government is not right to pursue war with Iraq, he is free to not be a soldier. In that way he can still support the notion of his government while not supporting the war. He can then vigorously speak out against his government's actions. If he chooses to be a soldier then he has to fight even if he disagrees with the policy. As a side note, my extremely limited experience shows that most soldiers don't think about whether a war is just or not. They oppose war because it takes them away from loved ones, is generally an unpleasant experience and they know they could be maimed or killed. No theory, just self-concern. >John is convinced that a secret combination involving the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations has taken over the US government and coopted its power for their own purposes. I'm not sure specifically who makes up the conspiracy, but are you of the opinion that one does not exist? Have you forgotten what list this is? ;-) > Marc is equally convinced that the US government is corrupt and seeks only for its own good, regardless of the needs of the rest of the world. And you are saying that this is not so? Admittedly, it does depend on what you define as "the goverment". >Rather, I am defending Elder Nelson's comments against being co-opted by others as an endorsement of their political opinions. I agree with you. Let's carefully understand what he said and not twist it to fit any pet viewpoints. Let's do that with all the talks. We want to understand and follow what they actually said, not what we wished to hear. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Conference just past
Conference just past Brethren give us many words So much to ponder = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Seasons Greetings from the Great White North (wargaming)
Seasons Greetings from the Great White North! I woke up this morning to a centimeter or two of snow, our first snowfall of the season. We often get snow right around General Conference time (but then it can warm up a little for a few weeks). Napolean started with his Grande Armee towards Russia with about 500,000 men. The 10,000 that barely survived escaped Russia in early December. So 80,000 Russian losses were not so bad, all things considered. Napolean got his just desserts. (BTW, there's the significant difference between the French and the Germans. The Germans abhor Hitler, the French adore Napolean.) Modern wargamers would of course plan for early, hard and lengthy winters in Canada. Modern equipment would keep survival rates way above Napolean's army. So I don't use an example like Napolean or even Hitler as base scenarios. Look at Afghanistan. Russia got badly pounded but the US crushed the Taliban. Some Russians thought that the US would get a shellacking in Afghanistan and were probably astounded at the speed and ease with which the US toppled the Taliban. They of course were not taking everything into account, particularly two things: 1.) Russia was not supporting the Taliban this time whereas the US did support them in the Russian war. 2.) The US's military is decades ahead of the Russian military both in equipment and in tactics. Russians have always fought wars by attrition. Americans don't like to fight that way and they haven't since WWI. But Russians and others have always underestimated the Americans by supposing that the American public won't accept large numbers of American casualties. They think that Americans are too soft to fight a "real" war. Even if it's true (and it wouldn't be if the US was in true jeopardy), it is irrelevant. The Gulf war, Bosnia and Afhanistan should have shown the world by now just how advanced the US military is. So advanced that they do not need to fight by attrition. Indeed, it would probably be counterproductive for them to do so. How many dead soldiers have been shipped back to the US in this latest Afghan war? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Wargaming (was Re: [ZION] Ways food storage could be activated)
> So, in conclusion, I think the list you stated would be empty is, > instead, rather lengthy. I won't bother to try to fill in the list, > but if you were to concede my arguements, you would see that it is > indeed a long one. But that's just what I refuse to do: concede that any country can do an overseas invasion of Canada. You have heard of wargaming. I mean the real stuff done by the military, not the Saturday afternoon fantasies of teenage boys. Do a wargame of an overseas invasion of Canada. You will be quite astounded at how hard it would be to invade. I repeat my mantra: overseas invasions are really hard. So hard that Canada is safe. Without the US. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Ways food storage could be activated
Currently, I think you're probably correct. For now. Will that be the situation tomorrow? Are Canadians righteous and God-fearing enough to stand alone against the world, if it comes to that? Will God fight your battles for you? -- No, I'm afraid the Canadians are not more God-fearing and righteous than other peoples. Or rather, better than some, worse than others. So God definitely won't fight our battles for us. At least, I'm not at all sure that He will save Canada for the sake of 150,000 latter-day saints (who may or may not merit it) and others who might merit it. Our practical defense therefore lies in not unduly antagonizing other nations. Then we won't have to have God fight our battles because we won't have battles. Repentance is much cheaper and far more effective but it simply will not happen. At least, that's how I read the scriptures. Wouldn't it be great if I were wrong? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Ways food storage could be activated
list consists of exactly no one. It used to consist of the Soviet Union, which would absolutely have loved to own Canada the way it owned eastern Europe, and would doubtless have invaded had they believed they had any chance whatsoever of success. --- That's just the point. Had the Soviet Union ever engaged in an overseas invasion? Never. Couldn't have pulled it off. Overseas invasions are tough stuff. Really, really tough. No, I mean way tougher than that. And once you've tried and failed you have to continue failing by trying and failing to hold the territory. A complete nonstarter. -- have.) In the future, it might well consist of China, a country with great resources and vast potential they are beginning to develop. --- Let's distinguish between who might like to and who actually could. China doesn't want to and China will never be able to. See my first paragraph. John alone could hold them off. Of course, now he tells us that he plans to move to Provo in a few years. Very clever, abdicating his responsibility just in time. No, wait, I said that Canada doesn't need US protection. Okay John, you are cleared to go. But swing by our place on the way down, would ya? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Ways food storage could be activated
> Canada would beg for US assistance if their country was under attack by > aliens from outer space. It could happen. I don't think you are trying to be serious, but if aliens ever attacked, it would be the US asking Canada for a safe place to hide. If Canada were being attacked there'd be absolutely nothing the US could do. If, however, you are making an oblique reference to the fall of nukes, well, what good would it do to ask for US assistance? The damage would already be done. And the US couldn't stop the missiles in any case. NMD will not work and will not be built. And, as I've said, no one is interested in nuking Canada. We have the ultimate in stealth technology: a whole stealth _nation_. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Ways food storage could be activated
> I get it, but as I explained, it's not a level playing field, morally speaking. > No part of Zion has lived up to the contract in Ether and we're all corrupt. Much > as we would love to take a higher ground, it is too expensive for us. We *could* > do it, but your government's actions make it more difficult for us. We have free > agency but limited options, which is usually how life works. What would be more expensive and difficult, Marc? Are you saying that it is cheaper for Canada to support nearly every US military operation (i.e. war) than to not support them? That makes no sense to me. Are you saying that it is cheaper and easier for Canada to support other US policy actions even if we don't like them and feel that they will be detrimental to our country? That also makes no sense. I'll slightly violate a personal (temporary) rule of mine and ask all on this list who think that Canada needs the US to protect it: Please send me a list of Canada's enemies who could invade Canada. Your list will be empty. There is no one. Hence, Canada does not need _any_ form of US protection. Not economic, not from ballistic missiles (who would launch against us?), not from land invasions, not from sea invasions, not from air invasions, not from no one no how. (Just as a little tip to those who might think that invasions are easy: research the allies' effort in the Gulf War to beat puny little Iraq. Try to extrapolate to massive Canada (one of many caveats: we have winter). Extra hint: try to find any US Cold War plans for the invasion of Russia). = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Ways food storage could be activated
Yuko? How long have you been posing as Marc? In any case, I'm glad to see it really was the US's fault, after all. For a brief moment, I feared that perhaps some other country besides the US had to grapple with possible failings in moral matters. --- We are a peaceful, antlike people (well, the country is so big that we feel reduced to the size of ants - and if we work at it hard enough we can be reduced to the size of a mote, smaller than the one in our brother's eye, thus allowing us to literally literally (as opposed to figuratively literally) pass through the eye of a needle (say, a #5 Bernina) and thus enter heaven where we expect to feel very much at home since it will be so much like our own country, except a little warmer in the winter). All our troubles are caused by foreigners. Before anyone came to this country we never had any trouble with people. ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] maps
> Guess what. I just picked up the mail and got my copy of FARMS' > "Insights." Guess what the featured book is? "Charting the New > Testament." I got my copy last night, too. Does that book make your study bible project obsolete? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Ivory Coast - who goes?
> Sorry, I thought I made that clear. The French government has the responsibility for >Cote d'Ivoire's military defence. Yam'o didn't have to ask for help, it would have >been automatic. Okay, but how did the US get in? In another post you mentioned international law. Are you saying that Canada could send in armed forces to evacuate Canadian citizens from the US? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Ivory Coast - who goes?
> The legal, or recognized, government, based in Yamoussoukro (an artificial > capital like Ottawa, Canberra and Ajuba -- the biggest city is Abidjan, on the >coast), officially asked for French and US help. Okay, if you say so. But none of your links gave any indication that the Ivory Coast government asked for the help. At this point it seems to be only implied because they aren't screaming about anyone improperly meddling. No doubt the government enjoys the help it has gotten from France and the US. It's just that I have not heard or read anything where they actually asked for it, or were offered and accepted. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Ivory Coast - who goes?
How is it okay for France and the United States to send troops into the Ivory Coast? Did the government of the Ivory Coast invite them? If so, I've never heard it discussed on any news report. Marc? ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Ways food storage could be activated
Why are we (I include myself in that) latter-day saints so reluctant to get our year's supply of food? It isn't that hard for most of us, and we probably all know members who have lived off their food for quite some time (e.g. a job loss). This should be a simple commandment to keep, like tithing. We all like feeling good about how well we keep the law of tithing, so why don't we want to extend that to another simple law? It looks like we wouldn't have done so well at keeping the law of Moses, let alone the full law of the Gospel. What are the scenarios that could require us to use our year's supply of food? They seem to be so many and several are of such immediate import that anyone interested in continuity plans of any sort would want to have a supply. Here are some of my scenarios: 1.) Crop troubles: Global cooling or warming, doesn't matter. Droughts, pests, flooding, etc. 2.) Widespread unemployment (or just personal) 3.) Disuption of transportation: Widespread civil unrest, war, plagues, etc. 4.) Large scale natural disasters: Volcanoes, earthquakes, asteroid strikes, etc. 5.) Evil governments starving out their population (oh, right, this one is already happening) 6.) others? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Exit Visas
> How many nations are there? Of that number how many will allow their citizens to >freely leave the country with all their possessions? --JWR I believe that there are zero (0) countries with sufficient government resources that will allow their citizens to freely leave the country with all their possessions. For example, heaven help you if you try to leave the US after converting all your possessions to cash and then carry that cash with you. I do hope that you will someday be allowed to see the light of day again. You could probably leave, oh, say the Cook Islands with all your cash because the government can't afford the resources to stop you (assuming that you didn't leave through an authorized port). So it sounds like there are zero (0) truly free countries in the world. ===== Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War on Iraq
> The worst problem is actually in Pakistan, closely followed by Egypt. Pakistan is > the 2nd largest recipient of foreign aid from the US (after Israel), and Egypt is > 3rd. He that hath ears and can count What is it that you are implying, Marc? Are you saying that the US supports those countries in order to prop up the governments there so that they won't collapse into fundamentalist Islamic states? If so, then wouldn't there be a better way to do things than build up their militaries? Wouldn't it make much more sense to put those billions of dollars into schools that teach reading, writing and arithmetic? Oh, and it wouldn't hurt the cause if they used some money in an advertising campaign to show what a nice job they were doing in building schools and hospitals. Don't Egypt and Pakistan already have a huge enough army without US support? = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
> I found Eric > Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected as > he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange than > for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John Pratt > is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast > of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on authentic > Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to > events of the restoration of the Gospel. Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would anyone want to present "information" in that style? (you can't use the temple as a reason because it is real and authorized). I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if exposed to this "program". = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
> Oh, that I were a bishop, and could get the inside scoop on all the bizarreness of >the Church membership! On the other hand, maybe not. My experience is that most members don't share that sort of thing with the bishop. Again, being an Edmonton area bishop might be different than a Utah bishop. I think that members know that for the most part bishops are no nonsense sorts of fellows who just wouldn't get their brand of nonsense. Most of my glimpses of the bizarre subculture have not been while I have been a bishop. I have noticed that the male version of subculture weirdness tends towards the John Pratt style i.e. esoteric "doctrine" whereas the female version tends towards non-LDS inspired lunacy (New Age nonsense, usually). Perhaps that's just my limited experience. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
>1) Pratt's wife sang 'Yo Ho, that I were an Angel." Did she really? Or was it "Oh, that I were an Angel"? If it was "Yo Ho" then the weirdness is also twisting into mangling songs. >4) Angels came back and pronounced individual blessings on us. If this was theatre, okay, I guess. If not, this is definitely crossing the line. >we all have a need to feed our inner gnostic. Haha! That's hilarious; "feed our inner gnostic." I love it. > If only they knew the deep and all abiding weirdness that lurks under the surface >of much of Mormon culture. Has he ever got that right. I've caught glimpses of it here and there which makes me suspect that there's a lot more that I don't know about. After all, I live in Edmonton, not Orem or Salt Lake City. I can guarantee that those involved in various subculture weirdness do not pay attention to the scriptures and the Brethren. They may read and they may listen but they are deliberately sifting for what they want to hear. What I cannot understand is how basically good LDS people get into such weirdness. I mean, you compare the true gospel with something like John Pratt's little ritual and your warning sirens would just have to start screaming. But LDS are a lot like other people: some are highly skeptical and suspicious and others are unbelievably naive. There's a whole spectrum. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Assassins
> Now, Marc. Don't blame that on foreigners. As I recall my African history > and lore, they were pretty much messed up long before white man stepped > in. Yes, the whites did cause problems, but they also brought stability > and the ability to produce food. Can you demonstrate that Africans were living in chaos and starving before the white man came? No. Therefore, you cannot definitively say that Europeans brought stability and the ability to produce food. Even if you could demonstrate it you'd have to agree that even with European influence there has been continuous instability and starvation amongst various African populations. And don't forget the Belgian Congo. That was the first major genocide in modern history (well, technically the New World atrocities were "modern world" but there were hardly reporters back then like there were at the time of the Belgian Congo). Don't get me wrong. I don't believe that if left to themselves the Africans would have been landing on the moon. With or without Europeans things would be pretty bad. Europeans just helped them make it bad efficiently. == Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] == -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
