subject:"Martin Luther on Rationality"

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013  meekerdb  wrote:

> With faith you have any belief you want.
>

> Brent
> ³We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have
> therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not
> merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.²
> ---Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933
>

And here is another quotation from Adolf Hitler, it's from speech he gave
on April 12 1922:

"Today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the
Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for
the work of the Lord. [...] My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord
and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness,
surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not
as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a
man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in
His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of
vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the
Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I
recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this
that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty
to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for
truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that
we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a
Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

  John K Clark

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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

2013-01-25 Thread meekerdb


On 1/25/2013 4:14 AM, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi John Clark,
Other than Luther's ancient views on astronomy, and only with regard to
salvation or damnation, as a modern Lutheran I agree with everything Luther 
said,
although I might temper down his invective, which was intended for the Pope.
In that spirit, everything Luther said was correct and still is.
Outside of science, true stupidity is to rely only on reason.
Faith opens the inner eye, which science wants to blind.


That must be the eye with which Luther saw the extermination of the Jews.  It certainly 
wasn't the eye science.



So it is said that with faith, you have everything, without faith
you have nothing.


With faith you have any belief you want.

Brent
³We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore 
undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few 
theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.²

---Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

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Re: Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013  Roger Clough  wrote:

> the ancient jews in the BC era knew nothing
>

Not far from the truth.

> of the ancient myths,
>

If they knew anything at all it was useless crap like that.

> “There is little notice of the Persian god [Mithra] in the Roman world
> until the beginning of the 2nd century,
>

But Mithra was certainly known in the non-Roman world long before then and
the Jews weren't conquered by Rome until 63 BC.

> but, from the year AD 136 onward, there are hundreds of dedicatory
> inscriptions to Mithra.
>

And the oldest written gospels come from the fourth century.

> Osiris was born of the Egyptian sky-goddess Nut-Meri and the god Seb
> (Geb). Nut-Meri was not a virgin
>

Who cares, I was talking about the God Horus not His dad; the God Osiris
was the father of the God Horus.

>> His birth was attended by three wise men.
>

I did not write that!

   John K Clark

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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

2013-01-25 Thread Bruno Marchal

On 24 Jan 2013, at 17:33, Richard Ruquist wrote:

This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s.
After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with,
and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam
for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in
science to where it is today.

Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
John's comments, I wonder why not.

I would say it did, but much earlier, in 523 after JC.

I wrote in another forum:

Theology is born as a science, but in 523 after JC, we have
separated the spiritual from the rational, and we are still paying the
big price.

In the human science we act irrationally, as human history illustrates
sadly.

Yet, the rational is the genuine path of the spiritual, and the
religions which deny this can only be based on bad faith, or special
interests.

I agree with Brent, science has plausibly regressed when the
authoritative argument in theology has installed itself, and the
Enlightenment is half enlightenment as non conventional theology did
not yet go through.

But with the development of technologies we can't afford the luxury to
be sleepy on the deep questions.

The choice is between lying a short period of time and evolving from
little catastrophes, or lying for a long period of time and evolving
from big catastrophes. Somehow.

Bruno

Richard

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:32 AM, John Clark
wrote:
I sincerely hope that nobody believes I'm picking on Catholics
because
Protestant "thinking" is every bit as brain dead dumb as the
Pope's. Martin
Luther knew perfectly well that religious ideas cannot survive the
slightest

amount of rational analysis without completely falling apart, but his
solution to that problem was not to get better ideas but to simply
insist
that people check their brain at the door before they start to
think about
God; here are some of the noises that particular bipedal hominid
made with
his mouth, although I think the noises made from the other end of
Luther's
gastrointestinal tract may have contain more wisdom, at least they
might

have disclosed some evidence on how the human digestive system works:

“Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the
aid of
spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles
against the

divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God”

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of reason."

"Reason should be destroyed in all Christians."

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample
underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it
sees must be

put out of sight and know nothing but the word of God."

"Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of
being she is
a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore;
whore
eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and
destroyed,
she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She
is and
she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the
wretch, to be

banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets."

"We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand
years the

world did not exist."

"People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove
to show
that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun
and the
moon. This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy;
but
sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the
sun to

stand still, and not the earth."

After this contemptible performance, after flat out praising the
virtues of
stupidity and unapologetically trying to turn everybody into
imbeciles I
don't see how anyone could call themselves a Lutheran or a
Protestant or

even a Christian without intense embarrassment.

John K Clark

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Re: Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

2013-01-25 Thread Craig Weinberg



On Friday, January 25, 2013 1:59:53 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote:
>
>  Hi John Clark 
>  
> That's all made-up stuff put on the web by people such as you.
>

Not by the worldwide liberal conspiracy?
 

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Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 Roger Clough  wrote:

> the Bible provided western man with a completely new, revolutionary view
> of existence
>

New?! The Bible is just a rehash of other Bronze age myths that it
plagiarized from older religions.

The Persian God Mithra, popular in 600 BC, was the son of the Sun God and
was born on December 25. Mithra performed miracles, died, and was
resurrected on the third day. Mithra was also called "the good shepherd"
and had twelve companions that went with him when he traveled and taught.

In 1000BC people thought the God Krishna was a carpenter born of a virgin
and was baptized in a river.

In 1200BC according to the Egyptian Book of the Dead the God Horus was the
son of the God Osiris and was born to a virgin mother (even back then
contradictions never bothered religion). Horus was baptized and the
baptizer was later beheaded. Horus was tempted in the desert. Horus healed
the sick and the blind. Horus cast out daemons. Horus raised a fellow named
"Asar" from the dead. Horus walked on water.  Horus had 12 disciples. Horus
was affixed to a cross and killed but after 3 days 2 women announced that
"Horus our savior has been resurrected".

> > The Bible, as far as I know, is the only sacred scripture that is
> choronological, time-based, as well as historical.

Even forgetting the silly miracles much of the stuff in the Bible that
could be true apparently isn't. For example, there is not one scrap of
archeological evidence that any part of the exodus story is true, no
evidence that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt or wondered in the desert
for 40 years. Nor is there any evidence, as there certainly would have been
if it was true, that there was a tax census that compelled Joseph and Mary
to go to Bethlehem at the time of Jesus birth, nor would issuing such a
decree even make sense for the Romans.

> There are whole books discussing this
>

And there are whole books discussing Gilligan's Island which deserve equal
respect.

  John K Clark

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Re: Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

Hi John Clark 

No,  I let science be science and religion be religion.
Different languages, different meanings. You're confusing the two.
- Receiving the following content - 
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Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-25, 11:29:01
Subject: Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality


On Fri, Jan 25, 2013? Roger Clough  wrote:


> Other than Luther's ancient views on astronomy,

?
How about Luther's views on geology? How about his view that the Earth was less 
than six thousand years old, do you agree with that?


>? as a modern Lutheran 

Which apparently is nearly identical to a medieval Lutheran. 


> I agree with everything Luther said


I do too, Luther gave a good explanation of why it is that if you want to be a 
good Christian you've got to be stupid.
?

> Faith opens the inner eye, which science wants to blind.


And you know this because that's what mommy and daddy told you. 


> So it is said that with faith, you have everything, without faith you have 
> nothing. 


And you know this because that's what mommy and daddy told you. 


> true stupidity is to rely only on reason. 


I rest my case.

? John K Clark 

?



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Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013  Roger Clough  wrote:

> Other than Luther's ancient views on astronomy,
>

How about Luther's views on geology? How about his view that the Earth was
less than six thousand years old, do you agree with that?

>  as a modern Lutheran

Which apparently is nearly identical to a medieval Lutheran.

> I agree with everything Luther said
>

I do too, Luther gave a good explanation of why it is that if you want to
be a good Christian you've got to be stupid.

> > Faith opens the inner eye, which science wants to blind.
>

And you know this because that's what mommy and daddy told you.

> So it is said that with faith, you have everything, without faith you
> have nothing.
>

And you know this because that's what mommy and daddy told you.

> true stupidity is to rely only on reason.
>

I rest my case.

  John K Clark

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Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

Hi meekerdb 

Yes, and science first thought that germs spontaneously
were generated like worms in decaying material. And
Aruistotle thought that there were celestial spheres.
And blood-letting was a healthy thing to do.

Etc. 
- Receiving the following content - 
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Time: 2013-01-24, 12:52:52
Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality




On 1/24/2013 9:12 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 
All these things are part of the myths of modernity. The reality is quite 
different. The idea that the medievals though that the earth was flat is 
larguely a myth, 

"As to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say,
men on the opposite side of the earth where the sun rises
when it sets to us, men who walk with their feet opposite
ours, that is on no ground credible." 
  --- St. Augustine

To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous
as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin.
  --- Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615, letter to Paolo Frascioni


as true as the fact that now a fair amount of the people in the world believe 
that Man has not been in the Moon. Inquisition, for example, and the burning of 
withches was a phenomenon of the early modern age not from the middle age, 
where woman had quite more freedon,  


The Church punished heresy from the time it gained power.  Inquistions became 
formalized with the suppression of the Cathars in the 12th century (the 
medieval period by any reckoning)

Certainly, the pursuit of knowledge was obstructed by the Church as long as it 
had the power - not just in the medieval period. The Spanish Inquisition ended 
in 1834.  


The popular ideas about the medieval era are based in prejudices that are part 
of the essence of modernity, which has the need of the existence of a "dark 
age" (the "Middle Age") and a Golden age (The ancient age) for its existence. 
the mytical tree stages in history is part of this gnostic elaboration invented 
by Joachim de Fiore. Since them all ideological creations, including the modern 
division of history had three stages. 


And the Catholic Church has been trying to revise history ever since to conceal 
it's role in obstructing science, oppressing women, harboring pedophiles, and 
murdering jews.

Brent









2013/1/24 meekerdb 

On 1/24/2013 8:33 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: 
This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s.
After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with,
and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam
for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in
science to where it is today.

Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
John's comments, I wonder why not.

But it did happen.  The Greeks already knew the Earth was a sphere, how far 
away and how big the Sun was.  They had a speculative idea of biological 
evolution.  They had the concept of atoms and how all matter might be 
constructed from just a few basic components in different combinations.  
Aristotle was an empiricist.  If it had not been for the early Church's 
emphasis on faith, dogma, and rationalism, science would be centuries more 
advanced.

Brent

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Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

Hi meekerdb 

I completely disagree. Regardless of the Church, 
which is a human activity, the Bible provided western man 
with a completely new, revolutionary view of existence that 
has become the basis for science.

The Bible, as far as I know, is the only sacred scripture
that is choronological, time-based, as well as historical.
So time was real, as well as events. They could be examined,
at least in part, rationally. And the world was good, if
imperfect, not evil hence not worth studying, as in
gnosticism and platonism. And God said for us to celebrate
it, to make the most of it; "The Heavens are telling the 
glory of God."

It even contains a semi-realistic account of creation and 
the origins of man and morality that is spiritually meaningful, 
if not completely scientific.

There are whole books discussing this more scholarly and
in more detail. 

- Receiving the following content - 
From: meekerdb 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-24, 11:44:16
Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality


On 1/24/2013 8:33 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: 
This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s.
After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with,
and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam
for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in
science to where it is today.

Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
John's comments, I wonder why not.

But it did happen.? The Greeks already knew the Earth was a sphere, how far 
away and how big the Sun was.? They had a speculative idea of biological 
evolution.? They had the concept of atoms and how all matter might be 
constructed from just a few basic components in different combinations.? 
Aristotle was an empiricist.? If it had not been for the early Church's 
emphasis on faith, dogma, and rationalism, science would be centuries more 
advanced.

Brent

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Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

2013-01-25 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Hi Roger:
Luther contributed indirectly to modern science by adopting the Duns Scoto
and the Occam rejection of universals. The Lutheran mindset was more
concentrated in the study of particular phisical things and rejected
speculation This gave the modern meaning of the world science.

 (I will not extend this,  to avoid to mention the G-world and induce
another rant by Pavlovian conditioning).


2013/1/25 Roger Clough 

>  Hi Alberto G. Corona
>
> Luther wasn't a rationalist, and so contributed nothing to modern science.
>
>
>
> - Receiving the following content -
> *From:* Alberto G. Corona 
> *Receiver:* everything-list 
> *Time:* 2013-01-24, 13:26:59
> *Subject:* Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
>
>
>
>
> 2013/1/24 meekerdb 
>
>> On 1/24/2013 9:41 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>
>>> In fact it is just the opposite: 爐he position of Luther, like the one of
>>> Ocham or Duns Scoto, which were strongly anti-reason, created the modern
>>> science and 爓ere precursors of the most radical forms of Positivism.
>>>
>>
>> They were anti-rationlism, the idea that knowledge of the world could be
>> arrived at by arm chair cogitation. 燗 'precursor' to radical positivism
>> would be moderate postivism whose precursor would simply be empiricism
>
>
> that is ahistoric. Rationalism did not exist at that time. You have to
> know the mentality of that time and what where their main philosophical
> preocupations. That is something that you have not the least intention to
> know.�
>
>
>>> Why? It is simple to understand: The three of them were against the use
>>> of reason in MORAL matters, in the knowledge of what is Good and what is
>>> Evil and in the knowledge of God, and in the meaning of life. They were
>>> against the use of Greek philosophy to interpret and complement the
>>> knowledge of the biblical revelation (the naturalist knowledge about these
>>> matters was called "natural revelation"). But they were not agains the use
>>> of science in any non religious matters. So they stablished the modern
>>> radical separation between faith and science, between "is" and "ough" .
>>> (which I strongly think is at the root of the contemporary social diseases )
>>>
>>> Islam took a more radical path, While the protestants proclaimed the
>>> independence of God from any natural 爈imitation of moral reasoning
>>> stablished by greek philosophy, but admitted natural causations, so science
>>> in the modern sense was not only possible but promoted, 爐he main schools of
>>> Islam proclaimed no natural causation. For Islam, life was a continuous
>>> miracle,
>>>
>>
>> Exactly as argued by Aquinas who formulated the Church doctrine that God
>> is the ground of all being and continuously sustains the world.
>>
>> That is not true. 燱ith almost as contempt for the details as you, I would
> say that the God of Aquinas was limited by reason. That is exactly what
> Duns Scotus, Ocham and Luther rejected.
>
>>
>> and what appeared to be laws were nothing but the customs of All� that
>>> would change at any moment. So there was no motive to study what may change
>>> at any moment.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr.Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani physicist and professor at Quaid-e-Azam
>>> University in
>>> Islamabad, said, according to The New York Times (10/30/2001), that 搃t
>>> was not
>>> Islamic to say that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water. 慪ou were
>>>
>>> supposed to say that when you bring hydrogen and oxygen together then by
>>> the will of
>>> Allah water was created.挃
>>>
>>
>>
>> Brent
>> "The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an
>> atheist deserving of punishment.
>> � ---Sheik Abdel-Aziz ibn Baaz, the supreme religious authority of
>> � � 燬audi Arabia, 1993, quoted by Yousef M. Ibrahim,
>>
>> � � � The New York Times, 12 February 1993
>> � � � Yes, that's 1993 CE, not BCE.
>>
>>
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Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

Hi Alberto G. Corona 

Luther wasn't a rationalist, and so contributed nothing to modern science.

- Receiving the following content - 
From: Alberto G. Corona 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-24, 13:26:59
Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

2013/1/24 meekerdb 

On 1/24/2013 9:41 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

In fact it is just the opposite: ?he position of Luther, like the one of Ocham 
or Duns Scoto, which were strongly anti-reason, created the modern science and 
?ere precursors of the most radical forms of Positivism.

They were anti-rationlism, the idea that knowledge of the world could be 
arrived at by arm chair cogitation. ? 'precursor' to radical positivism would 
be moderate postivism whose precursor would simply be empiricism

that is ahistoric. Rationalism did not exist at that time. You have to know the 
mentality of that time and what where their main philosophical preocupations. 
That is something that you have not the least intention to know.?

Why? It is simple to understand: The three of them were against the use of 
reason in MORAL matters, in the knowledge of what is Good and what is Evil and 
in the knowledge of God, and in the meaning of life. They were against the use 
of Greek philosophy to interpret and complement the knowledge of the biblical 
revelation (the naturalist knowledge about these matters was called "natural 
revelation"). But they were not agains the use of science in any non religious 
matters. So they stablished the modern radical separation between faith and 
science, between "is" and "ough" . (which I strongly think is at the root of 
the contemporary social diseases )

Islam took a more radical path, While the protestants proclaimed the 
independence of God from any natural ?imitation of moral reasoning stablished 
by greek philosophy, but admitted natural causations, so science in the modern 
sense was not only possible but promoted, ?he main schools of Islam proclaimed 
no natural causation. For Islam, life was a continuous miracle,

Exactly as argued by Aquinas who formulated the Church doctrine that God is the 
ground of all being and continuously sustains the world.

That is not true. ?ith almost as contempt for the details as you, I would say 
that the God of Aquinas was limited by reason. That is exactly what Duns 
Scotus, Ocham and Luther rejected.

and what appeared to be laws were nothing but the customs of All? that would 
change at any moment. So there was no motive to study what may change at any 
moment.

Dr.Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani physicist and professor at Quaid-e-Azam 
University in
Islamabad, said, according to The New York Times (10/30/2001), that ?t was not
Islamic to say that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water. ?ou were
supposed to say that when you bring hydrogen and oxygen together then by the 
will of
Allah water was created.?

Brent
"The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an
atheist deserving of punishment.
? ---Sheik Abdel-Aziz ibn Baaz, the supreme religious authority of
? ? ?audi Arabia, 1993, quoted by Yousef M. Ibrahim,
? ? ? The New York Times, 12 February 1993
? ? ? Yes, that's 1993 CE, not BCE.

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Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

Hi John Clark,

Other than Luther's ancient views on astronomy, and only with regard to
salvation or damnation, as a modern Lutheran I agree with everything Luther 
said,
although I might temper down his invective, which was intended for the Pope.
In that spirit, everything Luther said was correct and still is.

Outside of science, true stupidity is to rely only on reason. 
Faith opens the inner eye, which science wants to blind.
So it is said that with faith, you have everything, without faith
you have nothing. 


- Receiving the following content - 
From: Alberto G. Corona 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-24, 10:48:16
Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality


I though that, this was not a site for enhancing the self?steem?f 
self-proclaimed rationalists neither an insult-you-an-infidel theraphy group.?



2013/1/24 John Clark 

I sincerely hope that nobody believes I'm picking on Catholics because 
Protestant "thinking" is every bit as brain dead dumb as the Pope's. Martin 
Luther knew perfectly well that religious ideas cannot survive the slightest 
amount of rational analysis without completely falling apart, but his solution 
to that problem was not to get better ideas but to simply insist that people 
check their brain at the door before they start to think about God; here are 
some of the noises that particular bipedal hominid made with his mouth, 
although I think the noises made from the other end of Luther's 
gastrointestinal tract may have contain more wisdom, at least they might have 
disclosed some evidence on how the human digestive system works:? 

??? 
?eason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of 
spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine 
Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God?

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of reason."

"Reason should be destroyed in all Christians." 

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot 
all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of 
sight and know nothing but the word of God."

"Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a 
noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by 
scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her 
wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be 
drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the 
filthiest place in the house, to the closets."

"We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the 
world did not exist."

"People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove to show that 
the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon.? 
This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred 
scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, 
and not the earth."


After this contemptible performance, after flat out praising the virtues of 
stupidity and unapologetically trying to turn everybody into imbeciles I don't 
see how anyone could call themselves a Lutheran or a Protestant or even a 
Christian without intense embarrassment.

?ohn K Clark? 


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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

2013-01-24 Thread John Mikes

Brent:
I hold you in a much higher standard than being a participant in such
tongue-lashing about topics absolutely not fitting the Everything List
and its goals.
Could we save (use?) this list for reasonable scientific discussion? \
Does anybody have a 'fitting' topic we could discuss?
For many weeks it goes round and round without sense-making.
Unfortunately Bruno, lately arbiter of (his) topics as center of most
discussions - feels quite comfortable in the faith-related huppla.
Hoping for a better time Onlist
John Mikes

On 1/24/13, Alberto G. Corona  wrote:
> I know the traditions of my country quite well and they include religious
> tolerance - the first nation to encode that in its constitution.
>
> You are an unleashed ate moralist, devoid of any principle or reality. your
> knowledge of  History is a the one of a Lego game where you construct your
> excuses  your  auto-sanctifications and were you find your trowable
> one-line weapons. You convert any discussion into a waste of time.
>
>
> 2013/1/24 meekerdb 
>
>>  On 1/24/2013 10:46 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/1/24 meekerdb 
>>
>>>  On 1/24/2013 10:12 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>>
>>> In the same way, except a few in a concrete time in the greek history,
>>> the Greeks believed that the earth was flat, with the center in Greece.
>>> The
>>> world okeanos, (ocean) was a river, that surrounded the earth, where
>>> greece
>>> was at the center.
>>>
>>>  The XII century, the time of Juachim de Fiore, and the time of the
>>> Katars was a time of greath economic growth. It is true that the
>>> inquisition was created at that time, but except with the katars (that
>>> worshipped Lucifer), the  Inquisition became really active in the
>>> Renaissance.The horrid Spanish Inquisition produced around 2000 death
>>> penalties, while the protestants burned without ,judicial case,
>>> thousands
>>> between battle and battle in the European wars of religion
>>>
>>> Compare this with the hundreds of thousands killed in La Vendee, a smal
>>> region of France in a few days, killed by the rationalist french
>>> revolutionaries
>>>
>>>
>>>  It was more like 70,000 and it was in putting down an insurrection.
>>>
>>>
>>>  or the hundred millions killed by the scientific socialists.
>>>
>>>
>>>  The Stalinist and Maoists were hardly 'scientific', they just weren't
>>> theists.  For example, they rejected Darwin just like Baptists do.
>>>
>>>   They were as scientific as your global warmist friends.
>>
>>  The people like you have a great advantage: you are born every morning,
>> and with the tooth paste, hearing the news, blaming the world for their
>> faults,
>>
>>
>> A least I place the blame where it belongs.  You blame whoever is not a
>> fellow theist.
>>
>>   you auto-sanctify yourselves.
>>
>>
>> And you have a professional priesthood to save you the trouble.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Your country did something bad? You are not concerned,
>>
>>
>> I marched in protest of Viet Nam and the second Iraq war and in support
>> of
>> the civil rights movement.  I canvassed votes for Gene McCarthy
>> door-to-door and later for George McGovern.
>>
>>
>>   you blame your country.  Your father did something bad? you blame your
>> father,
>>
>>
>> Well sure.  I'm not God who punishes everybody for what Adam and Eve did.
>>
>>
>>   You are nothing. you are you.
>>
>>
>> Make up your mind.
>>
>>
>>   You can blame everyone else for his faults, but you were born
>> yesterday, you are willing to betray your father to avoid any blame.
>>
>>
>> Now you're just ranting.
>>
>>
>>
>>>  (or the 5+30 millions killed by the  modern eugenesists).
>>>
>>>
>>
>> And hundreds of millions condemned to starvation and venereal disease by
>> the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control and condoms.
>>
>>
>>
>>>  The selection of stories in a biased way is a proof of nothing but the
>>> own prejudices.
>>>
>>>
>>>  It seems strange to hear moral relativism from a Christian.  I'd say
>>> it's evidence that all those events and whatever agenda they were
>>> implementing were evil.  But the point is that the Church held itself as
>>> the sole and absolute moral authority with instructions directly from
>>> God.
>>> So it's a little more significant when it commits its crimes in the name
>>> of
>>> God.
>>>
>>>   I accept the good things and the true bad things of my tradition. but
>> not the false ones.
>>
>>
>> Of your tradition?  Is there nothing you have done yourself?  You just
>> "accept" the bad?  You have not protested the pedophilia, the oppression
>> of
>> women, the ignorant opposition to stem cell research, the homophobia,...
>>
>>
>>
>>   And you? have you something to blame yourself?. You  are one in a wave
>> of hypocrites that will repeat the bloody errors of your tradition,
>>
>>
>> Maybe so, but so far as I know no scientist has advocated burning an
>> opponent at the stake.
>>
>>
>>
>>   that has a long history of horrors. It is not certainly the tradition
>> of your

Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

On 1/24/2013 10:46 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

2013/1/24 meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>>

On 1/24/2013 10:12 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

In the same way, except a few in a concrete time in the greek history, the
Greeks
believed that the earth was flat, with the center in Greece. The world
okeanos,
(ocean) was a river, that surrounded the earth, where greece was at the
center.

The XII century, the time of Juachim de Fiore, and the time of the Katars
was a
time of greath economic growth. It is true that the inquisition was created
at that
time, but except with the katars (that worshipped Lucifer), the
Inquisition became
really active in the Renaissance.The horrid Spanish Inquisition produced
around
2000 death penalties, while the protestants burned without ,judicial case,
thousands between battle and battle in the European wars of religion

Compare this with the hundreds of thousands killed in La Vendee, a smal
region of
France in a few days, killed by the rationalist french revolutionaries

It was more like 70,000 and it was in putting down an insurrection.

or the hundred millions killed by the scientific socialists.

The Stalinist and Maoists were hardly 'scientific', they just weren't
theists. For
example, they rejected Darwin just like Baptists do.

They were as scientific as your global warmist friends.

The people like you have a great advantage: you are born every morning, and with the
tooth paste, hearing the news, blaming the world for their faults,

A least I place the blame where it belongs. You blame whoever is not a fellow
theist.

you auto-sanctify yourselves.

And you have a professional priesthood to save you the trouble.

Your country did something bad? You are not concerned,

I marched in protest of Viet Nam and the second Iraq war and in support of the civil
rights movement. I canvassed votes for Gene McCarthy door-to-door and later for George
McGovern.

you blame your country. Your father did something bad? you blame your father,

Well sure. I'm not God who punishes everybody for what Adam and Eve did.

You are nothing. you are you.

Make up your mind.

You can blame everyone else for his faults, but you were born yesterday, you are willing
to betray your father to avoid any blame.

Now you're just ranting.

(or the 5+30 millions killed by the modern eugenesists).

And hundreds of millions condemned to starvation and venereal disease by the Catholic
Church's opposition to birth control and condoms.

The selection of stories in a biased way is a proof of nothing but the own
prejudices.

It seems strange to hear moral relativism from a Christian. I'd say it's
evidence
that all those events and whatever agenda they were implementing were evil.
But the
point is that the Church held itself as the sole and absolute moral
authority with
instructions directly from God. So it's a little more significant when it
commits
its crimes in the name of God.

I accept the good things and the true bad things of my tradition. but not the
false ones.

Of your tradition? Is there nothing you have done yourself? You just "accept" the bad?
You have not protested the pedophilia, the oppression of women, the ignorant opposition to
stem cell research, the homophobia,...

And you? have you something to blame yourself?. You are one in a wave of hypocrites
that will repeat the bloody errors of your tradition,

Maybe so, but so far as I know no scientist has advocated burning an opponent
at the stake.

that has a long history of horrors. It is not certainly the tradition of your country,
neither the tradition of Christendom. You don´t even know it. It is more: you negate it.

I know the traditions of my country quite well and they include religious tolerance - the
first nation to encode that in its constitution.

Brent
"If God had decreed from all eternity that a certain person
should die of smallpox, it would be a frightful sin to avoid and
annul that decree by the trick of vaccination."
--- Timothy Dwight, President of Yale 1795-1817

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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality


On 1/24/2013 10:46 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:


The Stalinist and Maoists were hardly 'scientific', they just weren't 
theists.  For
example, they rejected Darwin just like Baptists do.

They were as scientific as your global warmist friends.


Really?  Where are their peer-reviewed papers, their instruments, their data, where did 
they publish?  They were arm chair philosophers and ruthless tyrants.  Global warming is a 
simple and direct inference from the absorbtion spectrum and chemistry of CO2 and well as 
an empirically confirmed phenomena - but I suppose you're waiting for the Vatican to 
pronounce on it.


Brent

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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality


On 1/24/2013 10:12 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
In the same way, except a few in a concrete time in the greek history, the Greeks 
believed that the earth was flat, with the center in Greece. The world okeanos, (ocean) 
was a river, that surrounded the earth, where greece was at the center.


The XII century, the time of Juachim de Fiore, and the time of the Katars was a time of 
greath economic growth. It is true that the inquisition was created at that time, but 
except with the katars (that worshipped Lucifer), the  Inquisition became really active 
in the Renaissance.The horrid Spanish Inquisition produced around 2000 death penalties, 
while the protestants burned without ,judicial case, thousands between battle and battle 
in the European wars of religion


Compare this with the hundreds of thousands killed in La Vendee, a smal region of France 
in a few days, killed by the rationalist french revolutionaries


It was more like 70,000 and it was in putting down an insurrection.


or the hundred millions killed by the scientific socialists.


The Stalinist and Maoists were hardly 'scientific', they just weren't theists.  For 
example, they rejected Darwin just like Baptists do.



(or the 5+30 millions killed by the  modern eugenesists).

The selection of stories in a biased way is a proof of nothing but the own 
prejudices.


It seems strange to hear moral relativism from a Christian.  I'd say it's evidence that 
all those events and whatever agenda they were implementing were evil.  But the point is 
that the Church held itself as the sole and absolute moral authority with instructions 
directly from God.  So it's a little more significant when it commits its crimes in the 
name of God.


Brent




2013/1/24 meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>>



On 1/24/2013 9:12 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

All these things are part of the myths of modernity. The reality is quite
different. The idea that the medievals though that the earth was flat is 
larguely a
myth,


"As to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say,
men on the opposite side of the earth where the sun rises
when it sets to us, men who walk with their feet opposite
ours, that is on no ground credible."
  --- St. Augustine

To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous
as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin.
  --- Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615, letter to Paolo Frascioni



as true as the fact that now a fair amount of the people in the world 
believe that
Man has not been in the Moon. Inquisition, for example, and the burning of 
withches
was a phenomenon of the early modern age not from the middle age, where 
woman had
quite more freedon,


The Church punished heresy from the time it gained power.  Inquistions 
became
formalized with the suppression of the Cathars in the 12th century (the 
medieval
period by any reckoning)

Certainly, the pursuit of knowledge was obstructed by the Church as long as 
it had
the power - not just in the medieval period. The Spanish Inquisition ended 
in 1834.


The popular ideas about the medieval era are based in prejudices that are 
part of
the essence of modernity, which has the need of the existence of a "dark 
age" (the
"Middle Age") and a Golden age (The ancient age) for its existence. the 
mytical
tree stages in history is part of this gnostic elaboration invented by 
Joachim de
Fiore. Since them all ideological creations, including the modern division 
of
history had three stages.


And the Catholic Church has been trying to revise history ever since to 
conceal it's
role in obstructing science, oppressing women, harboring pedophiles, and 
murdering jews.

Brent






2013/1/24 meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>>

On 1/24/2013 8:33 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:

This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s.
After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with,
and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam
for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in
science to where it is today.

Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
John's comments, I wonder why not.


But it did happen.  The Greeks already knew the Earth was a sphere, how 
far
away and how big the Sun was.  They had a speculative idea of biological
evolution.  They had the concept of atoms and how all matter might be
constructed from just a few basic components in different combinations. 
Aristotle was an empiricist.  If it had not been for the early Church's

emphasis on faith, dogma, and rationalism, science would be centuries 
more
advanced.

Brent
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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

2013/1/24 meekerdb 

> On 1/24/2013 9:41 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>
>> In fact it is just the opposite:  the position of Luther, like the one of
>> Ocham or Duns Scoto, which were strongly anti-reason, created the modern
>> science and  were precursors of the most radical forms of Positivism.
>>
>
> They were anti-rationlism, the idea that knowledge of the world could be
> arrived at by arm chair cogitation.  A 'precursor' to radical positivism
> would be moderate postivism whose precursor would simply be empiricism


that is ahistoric. Rationalism did not exist at that time. You have to know
the mentality of that time and what where their main philosophical
preocupations. That is something that you have not the least intention to
know.


>> Why? It is simple to understand: The three of them were against the use
>> of reason in MORAL matters, in the knowledge of what is Good and what is
>> Evil and in the knowledge of God, and in the meaning of life. They were
>> against the use of Greek philosophy to interpret and complement the
>> knowledge of the biblical revelation (the naturalist knowledge about these
>> matters was called "natural revelation"). But they were not agains the use
>> of science in any non religious matters. So they stablished the modern
>> radical separation between faith and science, between "is" and "ough" .
>> (which I strongly think is at the root of the contemporary social diseases )
>>
>> Islam took a more radical path, While the protestants proclaimed the
>> independence of God from any natural  limitation of moral reasoning
>> stablished by greek philosophy, but admitted natural causations, so science
>> in the modern sense was not only possible but promoted,  the main schools
>> of Islam proclaimed no natural causation. For Islam, life was a continuous
>> miracle,
>>
>
> Exactly as argued by Aquinas who formulated the Church doctrine that God
> is the ground of all being and continuously sustains the world.
>
> That is not true.  With almost as contempt for the details as you, I would
say that the God of Aquinas was limited by reason. That is exactly what
Duns Scotus, Ocham and Luther rejected.

>
>  and what appeared to be laws were nothing but the customs of Allá that
>> would change at any moment. So there was no motive to study what may change
>> at any moment.
>>
>> Dr.Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani physicist and professor at Quaid-e-Azam
>> University in
>> Islamabad, said, according to The New York Times (10/30/2001), that “it
>> was not
>> Islamic to say that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water. ‘You were
>> supposed to say that when you bring hydrogen and oxygen together then by
>> the will of
>> Allah water was created.’”
>>
>
>
> Brent
> "The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an
> atheist deserving of punishment.
>   ---Sheik Abdel-Aziz ibn Baaz, the supreme religious authority of
>  Saudi Arabia, 1993, quoted by Yousef M. Ibrahim,
>   The New York Times, 12 February 1993
>   Yes, that's 1993 CE, not BCE.
>
>
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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

2013-01-24 Thread Craig Weinberg



On Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:13:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
>
> On 1/24/2013 9:41 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 
> > In fact it is just the opposite:  the position of Luther, like the one 
> of Ocham or Duns 
> > Scoto, which were strongly anti-reason, created the modern science and 
>  were precursors 
> > of the most radical forms of Positivism. 
>
> They were anti-rationlism, the idea that knowledge of the world could be 
> arrived at by arm 
> chair cogitation.  A 'precursor' to radical positivism would be moderate 
> postivism whose 
> precursor would simply be empiricism. 
>
>  
Empiricists still sit in chairs and cogitate. Adding instruments to 
validate cogitation only improves on that, not replaces it.

Craig

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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

On 1/24/2013 9:41 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
In fact it is just the opposite: the position of Luther, like the one of Ocham or Duns
Scoto, which were strongly anti-reason, created the modern science and were precursors
of the most radical forms of Positivism.

They were anti-rationlism, the idea that knowledge of the world could be arrived at by arm
chair cogitation. A 'precursor' to radical positivism would be moderate postivism whose
precursor would simply be empiricism.

Why? It is simple to understand: The three of them were against the use of reason in
MORAL matters, in the knowledge of what is Good and what is Evil and in the knowledge of
God, and in the meaning of life. They were against the use of Greek philosophy to
interpret and complement the knowledge of the biblical revelation (the naturalist
knowledge about these matters was called "natural revelation"). But they were not agains
the use of science in any non religious matters. So they stablished the modern radical
separation between faith and science, between "is" and "ough" . (which I strongly think
is at the root of the contemporary social diseases )

Islam took a more radical path, While the protestants proclaimed the independence of God
from any natural limitation of moral reasoning stablished by greek philosophy, but
admitted natural causations, so science in the modern sense was not only possible but
promoted, the main schools of Islam proclaimed no natural causation. For Islam, life
was a continuous miracle,

Exactly as argued by Aquinas who formulated the Church doctrine that God is the ground of
all being and continuously sustains the world.

and what appeared to be laws were nothing but the customs of Allá that would change at
any moment. So there was no motive to study what may change at any moment.

Dr.Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani physicist and professor at Quaid-e-Azam
University in
Islamabad, said, according to The New York Times (10/30/2001), that “it was not
Islamic to say that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water. ‘You were
supposed to say that when you bring hydrogen and oxygen together then by the
will of
Allah water was created.’”

Brent
"The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an
atheist deserving of punishment.
---Sheik Abdel-Aziz ibn Baaz, the supreme religious authority of
Saudi Arabia, 1993, quoted by Yousef M. Ibrahim,
The New York Times, 12 February 1993
Yes, that's 1993 CE, not BCE.

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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

In the same way, except a few in a concrete time in the greek history, the
Greeks believed that the earth was flat, with the center in Greece. The
world okeanos, (ocean) was a river, that surrounded the earth, where greece
was at the center.

The XII century, the time of Juachim de Fiore, and the time of the Katars
was a time of greath economic growth. It is true that the inquisition was
created at that time, but except with the katars (that worshipped Lucifer),
the  Inquisition became really active in the
Renaissance.The horrid Spanish Inquisition produced around 2000 death
penalties, while the protestants burned without ,judicial case, thousands
between battle and battle in the European wars of religion

Compare this with the hundreds of thousands killed in La Vendee, a smal
region of France in a few days, killed by the rationalist french
revolutionaries or the hundred millions killed by the scientific
socialists. (or the 5+30 millions killed by the  modern eugenesists).

The selection of stories in a biased way is a proof of nothing but the own
prejudices.


2013/1/24 meekerdb 

>
>
> On 1/24/2013 9:12 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>
> All these things are part of the myths of modernity. The reality is quite
> different. The idea that the medievals though that the earth was flat is
> larguely a myth,
>
>
> "As to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say,
> men on the opposite side of the earth where the sun rises
> when it sets to us, men who walk with their feet opposite
> ours, that is on no ground credible."
>   --- St. Augustine
>
> To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous
> as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin.
>   --- Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615, letter to Paolo Frascioni
>
>
>  as true as the fact that now a fair amount of the people in the world
> believe that Man has not been in the Moon. Inquisition, for example, and
> the burning of withches was a phenomenon of the early modern age not from
> the middle age, where woman had quite more freedon,
>
>
> The Church punished heresy from the time it gained power.  Inquistions
> became formalized with the suppression of the Cathars in the 12th century
> (the medieval period by any reckoning)
>
> Certainly, the pursuit of knowledge was obstructed by the Church as long
> as it had the power - not just in the medieval period. The Spanish
> Inquisition ended in 1834.
>
>  The popular ideas about the medieval era are based in prejudices that
> are part of the essence of modernity, which has the need of the existence
> of a "dark age" (the "Middle Age") and a Golden age (The ancient age) for
> its existence. the mytical tree stages in history is part of this gnostic
> elaboration invented by Joachim de Fiore. Since them all ideological
> creations, including the modern division of history had three stages.
>
>
> And the Catholic Church has been trying to revise history ever since to
> conceal it's role in obstructing science, oppressing women, harboring
> pedophiles, and murdering jews.
>
> Brent
>
>
>
>
>
> 2013/1/24 meekerdb 
>
>>  On 1/24/2013 8:33 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>>
>> This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s.
>> After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with,
>> and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam
>> for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in
>> science to where it is today.
>>
>> Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
>> John's comments, I wonder why not.
>>
>>
>> But it did happen.  The Greeks already knew the Earth was a sphere, how
>> far away and how big the Sun was.  They had a speculative idea of
>> biological evolution.  They had the concept of atoms and how all matter
>> might be constructed from just a few basic components in different
>> combinations.  Aristotle was an empiricist.  If it had not been for the
>> early Church's emphasis on faith, dogma, and rationalism, science would be
>> centuries more advanced.
>>
>> Brent
>>   --
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>
>
>
>  --
> Alberto.
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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

On 1/24/2013 9:12 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
All these things are part of the myths of modernity. The reality is quite different. The
idea that the medievals though that the earth was flat is larguely a myth,

"As to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say,
men on the opposite side of the earth where the sun rises
when it sets to us, men who walk with their feet opposite
ours, that is on no ground credible."
--- St. Augustine

To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous
as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin.
--- Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615, letter to Paolo Frascioni

as true as the fact that now a fair amount of the people in the world believe that Man
has not been in the Moon. Inquisition, for example, and the burning of withches was a
phenomenon of the early modern age not from the middle age, where woman had quite more
freedon,

The Church punished heresy from the time it gained power. Inquistions became formalized
with the suppression of the Cathars in the 12th century (the medieval period by any reckoning)

Certainly, the pursuit of knowledge was obstructed by the Church as long as it had the
power - not just in the medieval period. The Spanish Inquisition ended in 1834.

The popular ideas about the medieval era are based in prejudices that are part of the
essence of modernity, which has the need of the existence of a "dark age" (the "Middle
Age") and a Golden age (The ancient age) for its existence. the mytical tree stages in
history is part of this gnostic elaboration invented by Joachim de Fiore. Since them all
ideological creations, including the modern division of history had three stages.

And the Catholic Church has been trying to revise history ever since to conceal it's role
in obstructing science, oppressing women, harboring pedophiles, and murdering jews.

Brent

2013/1/24 meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>>

On 1/24/2013 8:33 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:

Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
John's comments, I wonder why not.

But it did happen. The Greeks already knew the Earth was a sphere, how far
away and
how big the Sun was. They had a speculative idea of biological evolution.
They had
the concept of atoms and how all matter might be constructed from just a
few basic
components in different combinations. Aristotle was an empiricist. If it
had not
been for the early Church's emphasis on faith, dogma, and rationalism,
science would
be centuries more advanced.

Brent
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Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6050 - Release Date: 01/22/13

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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

In fact it is just the opposite:  the position of Luther, like the one of
Ocham or Duns Scoto, which were strongly anti-reason, created the modern
science and  were precursors of the most radical forms of Positivism.

Why? It is simple to understand: The three of them were against the use of
reason in MORAL matters, in the knowledge of what is Good and what is Evil
and in the knowledge of God, and in the meaning of life. They were against
the use of Greek philosophy to interpret and complement the knowledge of
the biblical revelation (the naturalist knowledge about these matters was
called "natural revelation"). But they were not agains the use of science
in any non religious matters. So they stablished the modern radical
separation between faith and science, between "is" and "ough" . (which I
strongly think is at the root of the contemporary social diseases )

Islam took a more radical path, While the protestants proclaimed the
independence of God from any natural  limitation of moral reasoning
stablished by greek philosophy, but admitted natural causations, so science
in the modern sense was not only possible but promoted,  the main schools
of Islam proclaimed no natural causation. For Islam, life was a continuous
miracle, and what appeared to be laws were nothing but the customs of Allá
that would change at any moment. So there was no motive to study what may
change at any moment.

Dr.Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani physicist and professor at Quaid-e-Azam
University in
Islamabad, said, according to The New York Times (10/30/2001), that “it was
not
Islamic to say that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water. ‘You were
supposed to say that when you bring hydrogen and oxygen together then by
the will of
Allah water was created.’”

2013/1/24 Richard Ruquist 

> This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s.
> After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with,
> and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam
> for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in
> science to where it is today.
>
> Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
> John's comments, I wonder why not.
> Richard
>
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:32 AM, John Clark  wrote:
> > I sincerely hope that nobody believes I'm picking on Catholics because
> > Protestant "thinking" is every bit as brain dead dumb as the Pope's.
> Martin
> > Luther knew perfectly well that religious ideas cannot survive the
> slightest
> > amount of rational analysis without completely falling apart, but his
> > solution to that problem was not to get better ideas but to simply insist
> > that people check their brain at the door before they start to think
> about
> > God; here are some of the noises that particular bipedal hominid made
> with
> > his mouth, although I think the noises made from the other end of
> Luther's
> > gastrointestinal tract may have contain more wisdom, at least they might
> > have disclosed some evidence on how the human digestive system works:
> >
> >
> > “Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid
> of
> > spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the
> > divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God”
> >
> > "Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of reason."
> >
> > "Reason should be destroyed in all Christians."
> >
> > "Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample
> > underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees
> must be
> > put out of sight and know nothing but the word of God."
> >
> > "Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she
> is
> > a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore
> > eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and
> destroyed,
> > she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is
> and
> > she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to
> be
> > banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets."
> >
> > "We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years
> the
> > world did not exist."
> >
> > "People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove to show
> > that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and
> the
> > moon.  This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but
> > sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to
> > stand still, and not the earth."
> >
> >
> > After this contemptible performance, after flat out praising the virtues
> of
> > stupidity and unapologetically trying to turn everybody into imbeciles I
> > don't see how anyone could call themselves a Lutheran or a Protestant or
> > even a Christian without intense embarrassment.
> >
> >  John K Clark
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Everyt

Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

All these things are part of the myths of modernity. The reality is quite
different. The idea that the medievals though that the earth was flat is
larguely a myth, as true as the fact that now a fair amount of the people
in the world believe that Man has not been in the Moon. Inquisition, for
example, and the burning of withches was a phenomenon of the early modern
age not from the middle age, where woman had quite more freedon,  The
popular ideas about the medieval era are based in prejudices that are part
of the essence of modernity, which has the need of the existence of a "dark
age" (the "Middle Age") and a Golden age (The ancient age) for its
existence. the mytical tree stages in history is part of this gnostic
elaboration invented by Joachim de Fiore. Since them all ideological
creations, including the modern division of history had three stages.

2013/1/24 meekerdb 

>  On 1/24/2013 8:33 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>
> This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s.
> After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with,
> and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam
> for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in
> science to where it is today.
>
> Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
> John's comments, I wonder why not.
>
>
> But it did happen.  The Greeks already knew the Earth was a sphere, how
> far away and how big the Sun was.  They had a speculative idea of
> biological evolution.  They had the concept of atoms and how all matter
> might be constructed from just a few basic components in different
> combinations.  Aristotle was an empiricist.  If it had not been for the
> early Church's emphasis on faith, dogma, and rationalism, science would be
> centuries more advanced.
>
> Brent
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
>

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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality


On 1/24/2013 8:33 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote:

This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s.
After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with,
and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam
for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in
science to where it is today.

Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
John's comments, I wonder why not.


But it did happen.  The Greeks already knew the Earth was a sphere, how far away and how 
big the Sun was.  They had a speculative idea of biological evolution.  They had the 
concept of atoms and how all matter might be constructed from just a few basic components 
in different combinations.  Aristotle was an empiricist.  If it had not been for the early 
Church's emphasis on faith, dogma, and rationalism, science would be centuries more advanced.


Brent

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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality

2013-01-24 Thread Richard Ruquist

This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s.
After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with,
and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam
for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in
science to where it is today.

Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on
John's comments, I wonder why not.
Richard

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:32 AM, John Clark  wrote:
> I sincerely hope that nobody believes I'm picking on Catholics because
> Protestant "thinking" is every bit as brain dead dumb as the Pope's. Martin
> Luther knew perfectly well that religious ideas cannot survive the slightest
> amount of rational analysis without completely falling apart, but his
> solution to that problem was not to get better ideas but to simply insist
> that people check their brain at the door before they start to think about
> God; here are some of the noises that particular bipedal hominid made with
> his mouth, although I think the noises made from the other end of Luther's
> gastrointestinal tract may have contain more wisdom, at least they might
> have disclosed some evidence on how the human digestive system works:
>
>
> “Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of
> spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the
> divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God”
>
> "Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of reason."
>
> "Reason should be destroyed in all Christians."
>
> "Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample
> underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be
> put out of sight and know nothing but the word of God."
>
> "Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is
> a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore
> eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed,
> she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and
> she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be
> banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets."
>
> "We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the
> world did not exist."
>
> "People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove to show
> that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the
> moon.  This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but
> sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to
> stand still, and not the earth."
>
>
> After this contemptible performance, after flat out praising the virtues of
> stupidity and unapologetically trying to turn everybody into imbeciles I
> don't see how anyone could call themselves a Lutheran or a Protestant or
> even a Christian without intense embarrassment.
>
>  John K Clark
>
> --
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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality


On 1/24/2013 7:32 AM, John Clark wrote:
I sincerely hope that nobody believes I'm picking on Catholics because Protestant 
"thinking" is every bit as brain dead dumb as the Pope's. Martin Luther knew perfectly 
well that religious ideas cannot survive the slightest amount of rational analysis 
without completely falling apart, but his solution to that problem was not to get better 
ideas but to simply insist that people check their brain at the door before they start 
to think about God; here are some of the noises that particular bipedal hominid made 
with his mouth, although I think the noises made from the other end of Luther's 
gastrointestinal tract may have contain more wisdom, at least they might have disclosed 
some evidence on how the human digestive system works:



“Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual 
things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating 
with contempt all that emanates from God”


"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of reason."

"Reason should be destroyed in all Christians."

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all 
reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and know 
nothing but the word of God."


"Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious 
whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy 
who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in 
her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would 
deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets."


"We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the world did 
not exist."


"People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove to show that the earth 
revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon.  This fool wishes to 
reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] 
that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth."



After this contemptible performance, after flat out praising the virtues of stupidity 
and unapologetically trying to turn everybody into imbeciles I don't see how anyone 
could call themselves a Lutheran or a Protestant or even a Christian without intense 
embarrassment.


 John K Clark


Of course we are now told that religion is not science, but that it is the source of 
morality which is beyond reason:


"We are at fault for not slaying them [the Jews]."
 ---Martin Luther, "On the Jews and Their Lies"

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...set fire to their
synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever
will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or
cinder of them."
---Martin Luther

"Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the
world enemy -- the Jews. The work that Christ started but did not
finish, I, Adolf Hitler, will conclude."
   --- "The Book of Political Quotes," London: Angus & Robertson
Publishers, 1982, p. 195)

"We stand at the end of the Age of Reason. A new era of the
magical explanation of the world is rising."
   --Adolf Hitler from Gespräch mit Hitler by Herman Raschning
quoted by Francis Slakey "When the lights of reason go out" New
Scientist 11 September 1993.

Brent
El sueño de la razón produce monstruos.
  --Francisco de Goya

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Re: Martin Luther on Rationality