Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
the major issue I see in this is how to get the blind to play. Its fine with the new gen of blind, ie those born in say the last 10 years say 2000 up or even 1995 or 1993 up, but anyone in the older generation which a lot are, have been used to blind games that will do everything because they are blind and they have always been easy. Hey you young whipper snapper, watch it! I was born in 1973 and just don't happen to fit that profile! You young'ns, I tell ya! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
My brother-in-law gave me a great surround sound system a few years back. Problem: there's no input for rear sounds. It's got 2 movie inputs, 2 MP3 inputs and so on, but there isn't a set of input jacks that says rear or anything like that, so I still have never experienced true surround sound, except at the theater. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Shaun, I take your point about cost and space, and am well aware of those as issues for many blind gamers. For instance, you mention not having enough space for 5.1 speakers and would have to stack them. The problem with that is you can't stack those kinds of speakers and have them do what they are designed to do. We are talking about a large subwoofer that sits on the floor, and then you have at least five sattlelight speakers you have to spread apart as evenly as possible. You will have two rear speakers, two front speakers, and a center, plus the subwoofer itself. The way I have my speakers set up I have the two front and two rear speakers sitting on all four corners of my desk, and the center is sitting on a shelf above my monitor. The subwoofer, which provides the base, is sitting on the floor below my desk. Since everything is evenly spread out when ever I am playing a game like Tank Commander or Shades of Doom I get full surround sound output because I am able to hear if a sound is coming from the rear left, rear right, front left, front right, or center. It only works if your speakers are evenly spread apart like I have it spread out on my desk. Which brings me back to the point. I realise that this takes a lot of space as well as money. I paid around $125 for the speakers I have now, and they have been very very good speakers. Plus I disabled the cheapo sound card in my desktop and replaced it with a Soundblaster Audegy IV with 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound support which was another $125 or so. So my total upfront investment for my gaming machine was $250 to get a decent quality sound for games. Most VI gamers aren't going to fork over that kind of money since they are usually on assisted living like SSI, SSDI, etc. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Yeah and thats not cheap. Currently I am sorting out a good mic solution for my brother who needs it for draggon. He can't afford it even in our currency. So its cracked right now. I am desperately looking for a price which is not 330 bucks which is what he needs. I have managed to save 80 on an academic which the shops seem to have or at least one online store has, but the 250 bucks is not my issue. the mic hardware is another thing all together and ties in with the hardware thing you were discussing. A simple mic costs 150 bucks for speech recognition from that place. However usb is another 250 at least and most of them are in the 500-2000 dollar range. Its a mission. On the subject of gaming hardware, there is also space issues. With my desk as it is with all my drives, cooling unit and shelf on it there is barely room for the 2 speakers of the sub below it. Although in theory I could stack the 5.1 stuff on top of it it would be a rather big stack. Then there is the question of environment as well as hardwre. I am next to a room which has my brother and dad systems in it and often they are working and have their own music. I can't vary well blast down the house so though I have 2.1 here i hardly am able to use it. The only real hardware which I have is pair of senheiser sets with some bass and good stereo semi 3d sound. The hd card in the system helps, but with any really good card costing loads putting in to the mix that it will have to be a usb card as although I could have pcmcias the cabling would get in the way. in fact I need to get another hub since cables on the ports of my system get in the way of things so there is no real compromise. And then there is the cost of actual hardware ofcause. Most don't have gaming mice or keyboards or anything close to what would be classed as an actuall working computer with acceptions. I know for a fact my core2 duo 2gb is now basically scrap compaired to the newer and faster i3 and i7 i series cores that have at least 4 or more cores in them. The other issue ofcause is when you are sighted you buy for what you need. When you are blind and don't have the cash you tend to buy the minimal system that can safely run things without crashing. ie screenreaders, the web, email and your word processer. If it can run games then cool but thats the way you do it. Scarey thing is if I was not at home I wouldn't be able to buy any real tech not at least what I have now. I'd probably still be on a broken vary slow single core if at all and sertainly not broadband. So yeah soundcards and other things are not on my list to get. The basics of system, 50 buck speakers and the appropriate hard drives secondary drives flash drives and the like are enough and they are just the basics you need in todays world. I could go on but I won't. At 07:43 a.m. 18/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Ken, that's a big part of the problem though. Most VI gamers frankly don't have the right hardware/software to do 3d audio properly. I know XAudio2 is pretty good if you have a 5.1 surround sound set of headphones and/or speakers, but there we go looking at $99 or more just to obtain some hardware to reproduce the 3d audio properly. That's assuming they have a 5.1 or 7.1 sound card already. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: You can also use 3d audio to let you know if things are above or below you, though you'll have to find something better the Directx for that. There is a program called AM3D that is wonderful, being the same one used in the Blind Eye--but you don't really get a feel for how awesome it is by playing that. What you'd really have to do is play with the Diesel engine--and when you've got the helicopter directly under your chin, and you feel the need to itch your throat, you know you've found a good 3d audio engine. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
the issue of this ofcause is how to keep the gamer interested in the game after they fail. Most of us are likely to cheat, try to make the game legally or otherwise playable or just leave it all together and or loose confordence. Its for this reason I havn't managed to beat superliam. I have gotten a rythm but it never lasts long. I eventually die and then I don't touch the game for years. At 08:01 a.m. 18/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, Oh, you noticed? Super Mario Brothers is exactly where I got the idea for the lava pit from. Although, it doesn't appear in the demo since the demo only goes to level 2. However, there are a number of side-scrollers out there that have this style of jump onto a distant ledge, then use that ledge to jump safely to the other side etc. One of the more interesting twists on this theme is found in Tomb Raider Angel of Darkness. There is this room filled with lava from wall to wall, and there is a fire crystal on the far side of the room Lara has to retreave. The only way to get the fire crystal is to jump onto stones sticking up out of the lava. Obviously, there is way too much risk of over jumping a stone or simply not jumping far enough sending Lara screaming to her death in the lava below. What makes this trap especially evil is once Lara lands on a stone it begins sinking into the lava, and she can't use it again to get back out of the room. So not only do you have to guess the jumps correctly you need to make sure to plot a course that leaves enough stones left above the lava to use to get back out again. I'd love to eventually come up with a trap/puzzle that rivals something like that. Lol! Anyway, I agree that we need more games where the player has to use his her judgement to get passed certain traps rather than just reacting to this or that all the time. I've found with Mysteries of the Ancients that once a person discovers how to lower a bridge it is no longer a trap or problem any more. However, what makes a large chasm a real problem is if you have to do a running jump to cross one, because then you have to use some skill and judgement to time the jump just right rather than pulling a lever and getting a handy bridge. Cheers! On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Fantastic that a game is finally implementing this, in fact the lava ledge jumping you describe very much resembles a section from the first bowser castle in the first mario brothers. I'll deffinately be looking forward to trying this. As to difficulty, it'll be really nice to see an audio game who's difficulty comes from a player's judgement, rather than by simply sticking in too many things for the player to react to. Imho those sort of games are far more satisfying to get through. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
the major issue I see in this is how to get the blind to play. Its fine with the new gen of blind, ie those born in say the last 10 years say 2000 up or even 1995 or 1993 up, but anyone in the older generation which a lot are, have been used to blind games that will do everything because they are blind and they have always been easy. I must say that I was born in the 80s in fact its only in the last decade that the gaming industry has made any real advances. We are in better shape than ever. We have 3d environments and new filters and effect and up to 7.1 sound support. We can use good sfx and voice almost if not on par with sighted gamers. Its been shown that we can use servers for card games and strat games like quake and soundrts. So its possible for us to expand. there is currently not much of a gap between us and the sighted tech wise which is good. Graphics ofcause have no concern to us, but we are still small companies and not that large. a major project takes years to write and is a big undertaking. We also can't with the marketing base we have right now sell games in access of 100 or even 300 or more bucks. Sighted stuff starts at around 100 bucks. Also unlike sighted games that will eventually lower ours don't because well not in stores and other factors. We can't make real cash to live off like the sighted. And we can't just use the latest and greatest because our market is slower than the rest. If you have the ability to make your own music with the right gear or hire some to be made then cool. Else you will have to use libraries you buy or get off the net for free and baring in mind if done legally the free libs have poor quality. All this and then the fact that like everyone else there are copywrite issues. ANd licencing issues. Sighted companies usually can handle being sued or can nagotiate something or can pay large fees and stand to sell millions. But we can't because of market size and because we have a specialised market. There are vary few of the new gen that wish to try at least. I wish to try, there are some of the devs new and old that are trying, a load of new blood has been found through university projects and audiogames.net but most of the major devs remain quiet or non existant for the most part. At least that is what I see as a player. At 08:47 a.m. 18/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Tom. Funnily enough there is a very similar 2D version of that style of puzle in junk man's stage in MEga man 7 for the Snes, where using one of Mega man's weapons can cause metal bricks to fall down from the cieling into a pit of liquid metal. Only problem is, they start sinking so you need to be fairly sparing with that particular weapon. I'll certainly be interested to see more of these sorts of things in audio. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Well I never have got use to coords systems or even degrees on compas propperly. I can guess but am not used to that. At 08:42 a.m. 18/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Tom. no, that isn't actually what I was thinking at all. imagine a system of coordinates, and you are on a ledge at 3-2, but here nothing to the right of you, just a long pit. However, if you activate the look up command, instead of hereing just that pit to the right of you, you will here the normal ledge sound of a ledge at 4-3, directly above and to the right of your current position. The sound of the ledge does not change in pitch, but you know it is there sinse you have activated the look up function, and can therefore jump up and to the right. The same could be true if there was a ledge at 4-1, just below your position if you activated look down. This would let you build more complex jumping structures such as those found in games like mega man and marrio showing what is above and below the character rather than what is just immediately to the right or left of them or having to rely upon pitch. Another way of thinking about it might be that in looking up you are virtually changing your characters position, pretending that he/she is at coordinates 4-2 instead of 3-2, thus allowing you to here what is up there to the right and left. This is a similar concept to the idea of scrolling the screen with look commands. i can't recall if any nes era games did this, though quite a few snes and mega drive ones such as super starwars and micky mouse castle of illusion certainly did. It just strikes me this is a way to get more mileage out of 2D sterrio sound and a better way to show what is above and below your character. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
well ofcause all the challenge is how to put what is mostly graphics into sound and eventually we may get some or all of it but it will take time and skill. At 06:31 a.m. 19/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Damien, Well, it all comes back to what I said earlier on list. What you call advanced is what most mainstream gamers would call normal. As I've said many times there is a huge difference between accessible games and mainstream games that is like the difference between night and day. For a lot of you some of the things I'm adding to MOTA beta 18 are new and novel concepts. Maybe advanced considering there haven't been many accessible games introducing some of the new features I'm about to release in the next beta. For example, as I was just telling Dark one of the new features is the ability to aim up, down, left, or right to shoot enemies attacking from above, below, left, or right, etc. Not too many accessible games have used this form of combat in even relatively simple 2d plat formers. Yet I can point out a number of mainstream games from the 1980's and 1990's that featured exactly this kind of multidirectional combat for years. Why has it taken so long for accessible game developers to begin introducing some of these slightly more advanced concepts? Well, anyway, I don't think it will be that hard for you or anyone else to begin playing games using some of these more advanced styles of game play. It is simply something new, and will take a little practice to get use to. I certainly hope introducing a number of these concepts doesn't put anyone off from trying my games, because my only aim here is to introduce other blind gamers to the styles of games I use to play before I lost my sight as well as provide myself the gratification of owning and playing some more sophisticated audio games in the process. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Thomas, Oh wow! Now we're really looking into advanced concepts here! I expect it would feel just about as complicated to a newby gamer to play it as it would be for somebody to program it. Grin. I hope I can do it and look forward to seeing some of it. I'm not really a hardcore gamer but this will probably turn things around for me as far as gaming goes. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi, Yes, temperarily. As I just mentioned to dark beta 18 is practically ready for release, and I'd like to begin wrapping things up this week. I'd rather not try and spend an extra week or two on rewriting the G3D targeting code to add a 2d look up/down feature when I can disable the existing code and release the beta as is. Cheers! On 3/19/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Thomas, Ok...so are you taking out the shooting up or down? Best Regards, Hayden --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Shaun, I take your point about cost and space, and am well aware of those as issues for many blind gamers. For instance, you mention not having enough space for 5.1 speakers and would have to stack them. The problem with that is you can't stack those kinds of speakers and have them do what they are designed to do. We are talking about a large subwoofer that sits on the floor, and then you have at least five sattlelight speakers you have to spread apart as evenly as possible. You will have two rear speakers, two front speakers, and a center, plus the subwoofer itself. The way I have my speakers set up I have the two front and two rear speakers sitting on all four corners of my desk, and the center is sitting on a shelf above my monitor. The subwoofer, which provides the base, is sitting on the floor below my desk. Since everything is evenly spread out when ever I am playing a game like Tank Commander or Shades of Doom I get full surround sound output because I am able to hear if a sound is coming from the rear left, rear right, front left, front right, or center. It only works if your speakers are evenly spread apart like I have it spread out on my desk. Which brings me back to the point. I realise that this takes a lot of space as well as money. I paid around $125 for the speakers I have now, and they have been very very good speakers. Plus I disabled the cheapo sound card in my desktop and replaced it with a Soundblaster Audegy IV with 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound support which was another $125 or so. So my total upfront investment for my gaming machine was $250 to get a decent quality sound for games. Most VI gamers aren't going to fork over that kind of money since they are usually on assisted living like SSI, SSDI, etc. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
I aggree. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Philip. these are actually some of the ideas I was very much thinking of, especially the business about running. I'll be interested to try this one when it's ready. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Tom. funny enough that sounds like the same setup I have in my flat. I will say though, despite having an extremely good set of logitech speakers which my very hifi orientated friend and I picked out as the best choice available, and which are wonderful for music and films, stil, if I play a game like tank commander, shades or even pinball xtreme I prefer headphones. My logitech speakers are extremely good, they cost me about 230 pounds or roughly 320 dollars in 2006. However, for immediacy of placing sounds I just much prefer to have the spacial quality of a pair of headphones. Admittedly, my headphones are a fantastic set of sanheisars which cost me 130 pounds, or roughly 200 dollars (though they're well worth it), so even compared to my logietch speakers the sound quality isn't a come down. My point however, is that even if a game required 3D sound and the use of 5 speakers, I would stil by choice use headphones. As in fact I have said in game reviews, for some reason I just cannot get the same accuracy of sound positioning when playing on speakers as I can with headphones. this is actually why i'd prefer things not to require 3D sound even though I have the facility for it. That and of course when I'm on my laptop using my sanheisar ear buds (which are not quite as good as my headphones, but far more portable), I have no facility for speakers at all, yet audio games are a great thing to have on my laptop (I've just today got a new laptop and am at the moment updating all my games to run on it, luckily it stil uses xp sinse it was bought six months ago by my brother but not used). Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Damien, Oh, I see. That makes sense. It does help to know the technical language being used. Otherwise whatever you are reading about doesn't make any sense at all. However, there are mailing lists etc for creative writers I've found helpful over the years. There are some people on those forums/lists that are good researchers, can look up information like this, and then explain it in down to earth fassion that a newby might be able to understand. Although, I haven't used those lists in a long time I remember having a discussion on one of those lists about the possibility of FTL, AKA faster than light, drive systems for starships. Although, I've had some college level physics I'm no expert on quantom mechanics and lack the necessary mathematical skills to even consider talking about this stuff compitently. However, we got into some basic ideas like some sort of tachion drive system that would be FTL, but not something as fast as warp speed. Since tachions are the only thing we know that can move faster than light it makes for a good interesting discussion for a science fiction game that uses a faster than light drive system, but at least has some basis in known physics. Make sense? So maybe the answer for you is if you aren't sure about a topic go to Yahoo Groups, Google Groups, and hunt around for a creative writing mailing list where ou can post questions of a technical nature and have people either help research or explain things so you can use them more effectively in a game. It really helps to bounce ideas off another person anyway as they'll often see problems and other things you missed in drafting your game idea. All authors do this to a certain point, and most authors locate technical advisers to read over what they have written and see if it jives with what they know. HTH On 3/18/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Thomas, In actual fact I did try to do a bit of research on different weaponry, but it tends to use a lot of jargon, especially for beginners, on subjects. It seems to all be written from an expert's point of view without considering the experience or knowledge of other less experienced researchers who are researching something without any prior knowledge whatsoever on the subject. I find that I can only really carry out research on things I do know a bit about before I can even begin to understand it properly. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Dark, That's a good question and one I presently do not have an answer for. As I said before I absolutely hate using pitch changes in some cases because it totally changes the way the sound effect sounds ruining the effect I'm aiming for. At the same time pressing m to speak the location of the nearest enemy monster is equally not very good. However, some things might just be common sense. A Skeleton walks on the ground so if you are up on a ledge a little daductive reasoning would mean he is below you on the ground. Harpies fly so they'd be a little more difficult to figure out since they could be above, below, or on the same level as you. As it happens G3D was designed for 3d based games and I've been having troubles with the game mechanics in MOTA. So I'm going to have to disable the look up/down feature etc in beta 18 because I simply can't get it working without rewriting a crap load of stuff in the engine since I didn't write the engine necessarily to do this in 2d games, but only 3d games. Cheers! On 3/18/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: hi Tom. that actually sounds a lot like the system i've been seeing recently in super metroid, where you can aime in all eight directions, and often need to. My one concern however in audio is how you will know that that a given enemy is vertically above or below. for instance, if you here a harpy attacking, when your on the edge of a ledge, is the harpy emmediately right/left, above, or below. such information will be needed if your to avoid attacks correctly, but I'm wondering how you'll such positioning without the player directly using the look key, are you going to change enemies pitch or similar? Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Ken, Have you looked at FMOD EX by any chanse? The reason I ask is because FMOD Ex works with Visual Basic .Net and has an extremely good 3d audio engine. It is regarded my many game developers to be the best comercial sound engine/API on the market. For free games FMOD is free, and comercial licenses can be as low as $150 for a shareware type license. I think if you want really good audio for your games FMOD Ex is your best bet. Another alternative you might not be aware of is SlimDX. SlimDX is a free and open source wrapper for Microsoft DirectX and it supports both DirectSound and XAudio2. So if DirectSound isn't your cup of tea you can use their Managed XAudio2 library to access the advanced 5.1 and 7.1 3d audio it supports. HTH On 3/18/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: Ah, Too bad it won't work with vb.net. I've thought about porting Heli over but there's no point unless I can get a better 3d engine than DX. I tried experimenting with Openal, but I can't even install the thing--and if it is installed, it doesn't like my hardware, and the software aspect doesn't seem to be there either, which is why I think it's not even installed at all. I've been trying to get in touch with the developer of the Blind Eye, to see about using the AM3d engine, but no luck, so for now I'm just concentrating solely on Phrase Madness. Meantime, Louis is still working on the server code so people can upload and download comments to and from their game. He's had other stuff going on too, so it's taking him a while. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Thomas, Ok...so are you taking out the shooting up or down? Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:41 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, That's a good question and one I presently do not have an answer for. As I said before I absolutely hate using pitch changes in some cases because it totally changes the way the sound effect sounds ruining the effect I'm aiming for. At the same time pressing m to speak the location of the nearest enemy monster is equally not very good. However, some things might just be common sense. A Skeleton walks on the ground so if you are up on a ledge a little daductive reasoning would mean he is below you on the ground. Harpies fly so they'd be a little more difficult to figure out since they could be above, below, or on the same level as you. As it happens G3D was designed for 3d based games and I've been having troubles with the game mechanics in MOTA. So I'm going to have to disable the look up/down feature etc in beta 18 because I simply can't get it working without rewriting a crap load of stuff in the engine since I didn't write the engine necessarily to do this in 2d games, but only 3d games. Cheers! On 3/18/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: hi Tom. that actually sounds a lot like the system i've been seeing recently in super metroid, where you can aime in all eight directions, and often need to. My one concern however in audio is how you will know that that a given enemy is vertically above or below. for instance, if you here a harpy attacking, when your on the edge of a ledge, is the harpy emmediately right/left, above, or below. such information will be needed if your to avoid attacks correctly, but I'm wondering how you'll such positioning without the player directly using the look key, are you going to change enemies pitch or similar? Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi tom. One idea which has occurred to me, is rather than changing the pitch of the monster, you might have a sound which is played at the same time the as the monsters' original sound and indicates it's position. this wouldn't break up the game the way aa nearest monster2 speech key would, and would leave things immediate to the play, but would also mean you can position monsters where you like, rather than being limited to what is audible. for instance, have a scope locator which is always active, but only sounds for monsters on an alternate horizontal plane to yourself, so that you will here both the harpy's flying wings and the sksleton's footsteps, and a low or high beep dependenting upon whether it is above or below you. You might also considder as ken suggested altering the sounds in another way besides pitche, for instance having the sound of enemies above you echo more, while enemies below sound far more basy. These are just a couple of ideas, but certainly I think it would be possible to have an indicater that you can here while walking along. this will for instance let you have situations which are comon in games like marrio but totally unknown thus far in audio, such as you needing to jump up onto a lege with an enemy patrolling it, and having to wait until the enemy has retreated from the edge of the ledge before jumping up. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Ken, Yes, if you know what you are doing you can simulate a 3d effect simply by using some calculations to position the sound in the stereo field and to have the volume roll off correctly. A couple of years ago I was looking at writing the Genesis 3D engine in Java. The only problem was that the Java Sound API only has very generic effects such as panning and volume. So what I did is I wrote my own 3d audio wrapper that calculated the position of the sound and set the stereo pan to position the sound in relation to the player. I used a simple logarithmic function to calculate the volume and had it roll off more smoothly/correctly. I have to say the 3d effect wasn’t bad and that was using just simpley stereo pan and gain controls. However, that is rather simplistic compared to what something like XAudio2 can do. With XAudio2 you can actually set the volume for each channel/speaker individually, and fine tune the 3d effect much more precisely than DirectSound or something like the Java Sound API will allow for. That’s why XAudio2 has largely replaced DirectSound for current PC and Xbox game developers. It does much more than muffle sounds when they are behind you it allows you to control how the effect sounds in each and every channel of output at the same time. It also allows you to mix and blend sounds to produce a more interesting effect. Those are just a few things that makes XAudio2 far superior to say DirectSound. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: What about simulating it? I don't know how easy it would be to do, but say you've got a creature in front of you. You turn, and it pans to the right. Now as you keep turning, you replace its sound with one just like it but muffled somewhat. I think that's all 3d audio is like--it just muffles sound that's supposed to be behind you, and I think the EQ or filtered sounds would suffice for above and below--but what do I know! I'm about ten years out of date with most things programming. LOL Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Dark, That’s my whole point. IN beta 18 the harpies are not on the same level as you. To attack them you have to aim up to shoot one down as they are actually flying and attacking from above you. They are not on the ground on the same level as you. Not only that, but now that I have activated the look down/look up feature in beta 18 you can now stand on a ledge and aim your weapon downward and pick off enemies below you from a snipers position. Beta 18 as you will soon find out is taking full advantage of the 2d format and combat will now will take place in and all directions. You will have enemies attacking from above you, you may encounter enemies below you on the ground, enemies may come at you from the left or right. For this reason that’s precisely why I mentioned only seeing enemies when Angela is looking up, down, or straight ahead is not a good idea. It would royally mess up the new combat system. Cheers! On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. that is true regarding ropes, though with the harpies example I was going on the basis that something flying above you is not at the same level as you and thus cannot attack unless it's dropping bombs or similar. At the moment, for all gameplay purposes the harpies seem to be on the same horizontal plane as yourself as far as attacks and defense is concerned, and they only seem to attack horrizontally too, though if your changing this fair enough. I do however think the pitch idea is quite possible, and could be used to show more complex ledge configurations requiring more work from he player to get around. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Damien, Well, it all comes back to what I said earlier on list. What you call advanced is what most mainstream gamers would call normal. As I’ve said many times there is a huge difference between accessible games and mainstream games that is like the difference between night and day. For a lot of you some of the things I’m adding to MOTA beta 18 are new and novel concepts. Maybe advanced considering there haven’t been many accessible games introducing some of the new features I’m about to release in the next beta. For example, as I was just telling Dark one of the new features is the ability to aim up, down, left, or right to shoot enemies attacking from above, below, left, or right, etc. Not too many accessible games have used this form of combat in even relatively simple 2d plat formers. Yet I can point out a number of mainstream games from the 1980’s and 1990’s that featured exactly this kind of multidirectional combat for years. Why has it taken so long for accessible game developers to begin introducing some of these slightly more advanced concepts? Well, anyway, I don’t think it will be that hard for you or anyone else to begin playing games using some of these more advanced styles of game play. It is simply something new, and will take a little practice to get use to. I certainly hope introducing a number of these concepts doesn’t put anyone off from trying my games, because my only aim here is to introduce other blind gamers to the styles of games I use to play before I lost my sight as well as provide myself the gratification of owning and playing some more sophisticated audio games in the process. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Thomas, Oh wow! Now we're really looking into advanced concepts here! I expect it would feel just about as complicated to a newby gamer to play it as it would be for somebody to program it. Grin. I hope I can do it and look forward to seeing some of it. I'm not really a hardcore gamer but this will probably turn things around for me as far as gaming goes. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Tom that sounds really great, what I can't understand is why don't any of you game developers out receive awards for your efforts, you really should. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Damien, Well, it all comes back to what I said earlier on list. What you call advanced is what most mainstream gamers would call normal. As I’ve said many times there is a huge difference between accessible games and mainstream games that is like the difference between night and day. For a lot of you some of the things I’m adding to MOTA beta 18 are new and novel concepts. Maybe advanced considering there haven’t been many accessible games introducing some of the new features I’m about to release in the next beta. For example, as I was just telling Dark one of the new features is the ability to aim up, down, left, or right to shoot enemies attacking from above, below, left, or right, etc. Not too many accessible games have used this form of combat in even relatively simple 2d plat formers. Yet I can point out a number of mainstream games from the 1980’s and 1990’s that featured exactly this kind of multidirectional combat for years. Why has it taken so long for accessible game developers to begin introducing some of these slightly more advanced concepts? Well, anyway, I don’t think it will be that hard for you or anyone else to begin playing games using some of these more advanced styles of game play. It is simply something new, and will take a little practice to get use to. I certainly hope introducing a number of these concepts doesn’t put anyone off from trying my games, because my only aim here is to introduce other blind gamers to the styles of games I use to play before I lost my sight as well as provide myself the gratification of owning and playing some more sophisticated audio games in the process. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Thomas, Oh wow! Now we're really looking into advanced concepts here! I expect it would feel just about as complicated to a newby gamer to play it as it would be for somebody to program it. Grin. I hope I can do it and look forward to seeing some of it. I'm not really a hardcore gamer but this will probably turn things around for me as far as gaming goes. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Damien, Ah, I see. Well, I’m no expert with guns etc either, but at least I’ve seen them up close and have fired a few so have that much experience. That said, it never hurts to do a little research on a topic, because only by doing research will you be able to make the game act more realistically and provide an overall better experience. Plus I’m something of a jack of all trades, as they say here in the states, and know a little bit about lots of different subjects. For that reason I tend to judge a game on its realism or accuracy according to the real world, and a game that doesn’t behave properly I tend to score lower than one that is more detailed. For example, let’s take our shotgun example for a moment. Let’s assume I pick up a game and the developer doesn’t know beans about shotguns and the game allows me to shoot a target from 100 meters away. Well, since I do know something about shotguns, and have personally fired a few in my day, I know that is definitely unrealistic. A shotgun is only really good for at least 20 meters or so. Although, you might be able to pull off an extremely long range shot from around 30 meters. Plus you need a minimum of a meter between you and the target. So if either one of those distances were misrepresented in the game I’d decide that the game was poorly written, buggy, and would feel compelled to inform the developer of his/her mistakes. Something no game developer likes including myself. So my advice to you and anyone else is try and do your homework. I’ve had to do it several times when writing Mysteries of the Ancients. I have never seen a Uzi up close much less fired one, but I managed to get the specs an various Uzis and took what I learned and added it to the game. The Uzi found in Mysteries of the Ancients is based on a military grade Uzi carried by the Israeli military and allied forces. I simply took those specs such as maximum distance, size of the ammo clips, rate of fire, etc and entered those values into the weapon description and voila. The game now does a decent job of simulating firing a Uzi. I wouldn’t have known that if I hadn’t checked places like Wikipedia etc though. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Thomas, To be honest I didn't. As pretty much a beginner in audio games, only seeing the basics in them, that is the only thing I know. True, I could have perhaps thought better about what other in-game characters might do, but since I have only seen a search and destroy tactic, that's all I have ever attempted programming. Again, perhaps with different weaponry, I could have tried my imagination at, but in all honesty I don't know anything about weapons except they are used for fighting. Different lengths, mechanics and attack strategies would have never crossed my mind. For all I knew, guns were something you fired by pulling a trigger. I wouldn't have known if a gun was pocket size or the size of, say, a javelin. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Thomas, In actual fact I did try to do a bit of research on different weaponry, but it tends to use a lot of jargon, especially for beginners, on subjects. It seems to all be written from an expert's point of view without considering the experience or knowledge of other less experienced researchers who are researching something without any prior knowledge whatsoever on the subject. I find that I can only really carry out research on things I do know a bit about before I can even begin to understand it properly. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Damien, Ah, I see. Well, I’m no expert with guns etc either, but at least I’ve seen them up close and have fired a few so have that much experience. That said, it never hurts to do a little research on a topic, because only by doing research will you be able to make the game act more realistically and provide an overall better experience. Plus I’m something of a jack of all trades, as they say here in the states, and know a little bit about lots of different subjects. For that reason I tend to judge a game on its realism or accuracy according to the real world, and a game that doesn’t behave properly I tend to score lower than one that is more detailed. For example, let’s take our shotgun example for a moment. Let’s assume I pick up a game and the developer doesn’t know beans about shotguns and the game allows me to shoot a target from 100 meters away. Well, since I do know something about shotguns, and have personally fired a few in my day, I know that is definitely unrealistic. A shotgun is only really good for at least 20 meters or so. Although, you might be able to pull off an extremely long range shot from around 30 meters. Plus you need a minimum of a meter between you and the target. So if either one of those distances were misrepresented in the game I’d decide that the game was poorly written, buggy, and would feel compelled to inform the developer of his/her mistakes. Something no game developer likes including myself. So my advice to you and anyone else is try and do your homework. I’ve had to do it several times when writing Mysteries of the Ancients. I have never seen a Uzi up close much less fired one, but I managed to get the specs an various Uzis and took what I learned and added it to the game. The Uzi found in Mysteries of the Ancients is based on a military grade Uzi carried by the Israeli military and allied forces. I simply took those specs such as maximum distance, size of the ammo clips, rate of fire, etc and entered those values into the weapon description and voila. The game now does a decent job of simulating firing a Uzi. I wouldn’t have known that if I hadn’t checked places like Wikipedia etc though. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Thomas, To be honest I didn't. As pretty much a beginner in audio games, only seeing the basics in them, that is the only thing I know. True, I could have perhaps thought better about what other in-game characters might do, but since I have only seen a search and destroy tactic, that's all I have ever attempted programming. Again, perhaps with different weaponry, I could have tried my imagination at, but in all honesty I don't know anything about weapons except they are used for fighting. Different lengths, mechanics and attack strategies would have never crossed my mind. For all I knew, guns were something you fired by pulling a trigger. I wouldn't have known if a gun was pocket size or the size of, say, a javelin. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Ah, Too bad it won't work with vb.net. I've thought about porting Heli over but there's no point unless I can get a better 3d engine than DX. I tried experimenting with Openal, but I can't even install the thing--and if it is installed, it doesn't like my hardware, and the software aspect doesn't seem to be there either, which is why I think it's not even installed at all. I've been trying to get in touch with the developer of the Blind Eye, to see about using the AM3d engine, but no luck, so for now I'm just concentrating solely on Phrase Madness. Meantime, Louis is still working on the server code so people can upload and download comments to and from their game. He's had other stuff going on too, so it's taking him a while. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi, Do you still have that Space Invaders-style game under development? Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Ken the Crazy Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 3:27 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Ah, Too bad it won't work with vb.net. I've thought about porting Heli over but there's no point unless I can get a better 3d engine than DX. I tried experimenting with Openal, but I can't even install the thing--and if it is installed, it doesn't like my hardware, and the software aspect doesn't seem to be there either, which is why I think it's not even installed at all. I've been trying to get in touch with the developer of the Blind Eye, to see about using the AM3d engine, but no luck, so for now I'm just concentrating solely on Phrase Madness. Meantime, Louis is still working on the server code so people can upload and download comments to and from their game. He's had other stuff going on too, so it's taking him a while. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
hi Tom. that actually sounds a lot like the system i've been seeing recently in super metroid, where you can aime in all eight directions, and often need to. My one concern however in audio is how you will know that that a given enemy is vertically above or below. for instance, if you here a harpy attacking, when your on the edge of a ledge, is the harpy emmediately right/left, above, or below. such information will be needed if your to avoid attacks correctly, but I'm wondering how you'll such positioning without the player directly using the look key, are you going to change enemies pitch or similar? Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, That’s my whole point. IN beta 18 the harpies are not on the same level as you. To attack them you have to aim up to shoot one down as they are actually flying and attacking from above you. They are not on the ground on the same level as you. Not only that, but now that I have activated the look down/look up feature in beta 18 you can now stand on a ledge and aim your weapon downward and pick off enemies below you from a snipers position. Beta 18 as you will soon find out is taking full advantage of the 2d format and combat will now will take place in and all directions. You will have enemies attacking from above you, you may encounter enemies below you on the ground, enemies may come at you from the left or right. For this reason that’s precisely why I mentioned only seeing enemies when Angela is looking up, down, or straight ahead is not a good idea. It would royally mess up the new combat system. Cheers! On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. that is true regarding ropes, though with the harpies example I was going on the basis that something flying above you is not at the same level as you and thus cannot attack unless it's dropping bombs or similar. At the moment, for all gameplay purposes the harpies seem to be on the same horizontal plane as yourself as far as attacks and defense is concerned, and they only seem to attack horrizontally too, though if your changing this fair enough. I do however think the pitch idea is quite possible, and could be used to show more complex ledge configurations requiring more work from he player to get around. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Personally tom, i'd love to see people be able to enjoy the sort of fun i do everytime I fire up a game like Turrican, metroid or mega man in audio. I've enjoyed them for years and stil do and will love to have exploration platformers with multidirectional enemies. Pluss this also means, if by any chance I lost my remaining vision in future I automatically wouldn't have to say goodbye to this style of game, which has actually been a fear of mine in the past (though provided I keep up with my medication my sight should remain stable). I do think audiogames audio games in 3D have done very well, in fact as I've said before it was playing shades of doom with it's multiuple weapons and explorable first person base which actually got me interested in audiogames first off. but certainly this tradition hasn't been carried on in too many other action games as yet, and certainly not in 2D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Dark, That is quite a number of interesting points you raised here. I happen to agree with you on all points. In fact, this is in large part why Mysteries of the Ancients beta 18 is taking so long to release. I decided to go back in and rewrite some of the various game mechanics such as jumping to resemble that of the classic NES era games where the longer you hold down the jump button/keys the higher and further the main character will jump. As you said this requires a lot more skill and judgment of how long to hold down the buttons or keys before releasing them. As you know in beta 17 and earlier I had a very simple jump system in place where all you needed to do is press control+left arrow or control+right arrow and Angela would safely land on the other side of the pit, chasm, fire, lava, whatever just about every time. However, not only was that very easy it was also pretty boring. So what I did is I completely redesigned the jump mechanics to be more like classic NES games like Super Mario where you now have to time your jumps in order to make it safely to the other side of a trap. there have been a number of times where I have over estimated a jump or under estimated the length of a jump and Angela ended up impailed on a bronze spike, took a bath in hot boiling lava, or got roasted over a huge fire pit. For instance, one of the traps in the game is a large lava pit with a stone ledge hanging out over the middle of the pit. The trick to getting over the lava pit is to jump from one side of the pit up onto that hanging stone ledge, and jump from there to the other side of the pit. As you might have guessed this takes perfect timing and percision to do it correctly. If you misjudge the length of the jump Angela is going to have a very hot bath in lava. If you don't jump far enough Angela will not reach the ledge and fall into the lava. If you hold down the keys too long she'll jump over the stone ledge and land in the lava anyway. The key to successfully making it is listening very carefully to the drip, drip, drip, of the water dripping off that ledge and judge your jump as best as you can. This way insures you use both some skill and personal judgement to figure out how far and howlong to jump rather than Angela just landing on that ledge as soon as she is close to it as the game use to. So what you are suggesting here is very possible. I've been practicing with some of these ideas you suggested in beta 18, and I think it would be cool if more games started doing this as well. It makes jumping far more tricky and takes practice to get just right. I've learned from my own experience with MOTA beta 18 you won't get it right your first try in a lot of cases. As far as changing pitch of pits and stuff that's another good idea. I should probably put that down in my things to do list for beta 18. You have a point that the deeper the sound of the pit the larger the pit. The higher the sound the smaller it is and you should be able to determine its size by pitch alone rather than just using a look/view command to gather that information all the time. Cheers! On 3/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Phil. i agree this would be a good thing (though the business about damage for over jumping seems unnecessarily harsh to me), but I think your over complicating the situation more than it would need to be. As I said, the relative width of pits could be shown by altering the pitch of the sound. Say for instance a pit you could jump normally from the edge (to use your example a five foot or less), would have a high pitched wind sound, a pit which was jumpalbe with a long jump has a medium, and a pit which was not jumpable at all has a low ominous wind. A standard two step boundry would be more than enough even when running given the speed of character movement to tell you when your on the edge of a pit, heck, many people like myself play games like Q9 with the run button perminantly held anyway. As for jump hight relative to button pressing, well rail racers' jets are a perfect example of this. Of course, the player would need to practice and learn how long he/she has to hold the button for a given jump, but that is in fact my point, that many audio games would be considderably more addictive and interesting if they did! give the player a skill and form of jugement to learn by calculating their characters movement according to the environment, rather than by working on a basic stimulous response model. Of course, starting easy (or non fatal), and getting harder would just be part of the experience. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Philip, Well, I for one, happen to feel the same way you do. I'd much prefer some sort of audio feedback rather than always having a verbal message saying this or that. It ruins the atmosphere and feel of the game for me having Sapi or some other voice saying this or that all the time. Generally speaking there are usually ways of conveying that information through some sort of audio feedback instead. For example, in MOTA whenever Angela picks up an item it plays a sound and speaks whatever item Angela has located. Well, I don't really like the speech announcing everything all the time so I've been working on conveying that information in other ways. One way is now when Angela picks up pistol ammo you hear the sound of Angela reloading her pistol. If she picks up a box of shotgun shells you hear her racking a shell into the shotgun. Not only is this more realistic than before each pickup sound is unique and I don't really think we need the verbal feedback any longer because you should be able to determine what she picked up by sound alone. This just really improves the atmosphere because it doesn't have that feeling of blind accessible audio game written all over its face as you say. As for in-game menus such as a look/view menu I don't personally care for them either. Although, i have a view menu in Mysteries of the Ancients I actually don't use it myself. It is just there for the newbies/beginners who doesn't know where everything is or what something sounds like. Otherwise I just play without it. I don't like interrupting my game play to look around. Cheers! On 3/16/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Phil, I like this idea, but the thing that springs to mind immediately is the feedback you mention. Having a voice telling me that a pit is 8 feet wide or that I jumped 7 feet would kill the atmosphere very effectively for me. It has blind accessible audio game written all over its face, if you know what I mean. If one could design it so that there is just auditory rather than speech feedback, I think that would be a very different thing. For example I was opposed to including a looking feature in my upcoming game as I feel that it spoils the atmosphere in a similar fashion, but I ended up including it in the end because I could think of no other way to tell you exactly where branches are for example. I did not use a menu, but rather a method that does not interrupt the game play as I am personally of the opinion that an in game menu that stops the action in an atmospheric adventure title is the worst possible thing that could happen tot he over-all experience. Any thoughts? Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi, I'm pretty much the same. I never use the look features in games unless it is absolutely necessary for me to do so, such as in tank commander where I can't tell where my open spaces are etc.. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Philip, Well, I for one, happen to feel the same way you do. I'd much prefer some sort of audio feedback rather than always having a verbal message saying this or that. It ruins the atmosphere and feel of the game for me having Sapi or some other voice saying this or that all the time. Generally speaking there are usually ways of conveying that information through some sort of audio feedback instead. For example, in MOTA whenever Angela picks up an item it plays a sound and speaks whatever item Angela has located. Well, I don't really like the speech announcing everything all the time so I've been working on conveying that information in other ways. One way is now when Angela picks up pistol ammo you hear the sound of Angela reloading her pistol. If she picks up a box of shotgun shells you hear her racking a shell into the shotgun. Not only is this more realistic than before each pickup sound is unique and I don't really think we need the verbal feedback any longer because you should be able to determine what she picked up by sound alone. This just really improves the atmosphere because it doesn't have that feeling of blind accessible audio game written all over its face as you say. As for in-game menus such as a look/view menu I don't personally care for them either. Although, i have a view menu in Mysteries of the Ancients I actually don't use it myself. It is just there for the newbies/beginners who doesn't know where everything is or what something sounds like. Otherwise I just play without it. I don't like interrupting my game play to look around. Cheers! On 3/16/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Phil, I like this idea, but the thing that springs to mind immediately is the feedback you mention. Having a voice telling me that a pit is 8 feet wide or that I jumped 7 feet would kill the atmosphere very effectively for me. It has blind accessible audio game written all over its face, if you know what I mean. If one could design it so that there is just auditory rather than speech feedback, I think that would be a very different thing. For example I was opposed to including a looking feature in my upcoming game as I feel that it spoils the atmosphere in a similar fashion, but I ended up including it in the end because I could think of no other way to tell you exactly where branches are for example. I did not use a menu, but rather a method that does not interrupt the game play as I am personally of the opinion that an in game menu that stops the action in an atmospheric adventure title is the worst possible thing that could happen tot he over-all experience. Any thoughts? Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Phil, Smile. You are in luck. As it so happens running jumps have been one of the requests I've actually gotten around to adding to MOTA in beta 18. If you use shift+control+left arrow or shift+control+right arrow Angela will run up to a pit, spike trap, etc then jump over it. With the new jump mechanics in beta 18 you actually do have to figure out how long to hold the keys down or she'll over jump the trap or not jump far enough. So part of what you are asking for is being fulfilled right now in MOTA beta 18. However, as for speaking you jumped 5 feet, 7 feet, etc I'm with Philip. I really don't like games with too much verbosity in them. It is my personal opinion that a really good accessible game is one that has enough audio clues or indicators that speech is unnecessary. For example, one suggestion Dark had is if you are trying to jump a pit a large pit would sound deeper than a small pit. If you realise that you can probably figure out if the pit is jumpable or not just by the sound it makes. Something simple like that would render a command which says pit 10 feet wide pretty much unnecessary. Cheers! On 3/16/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: Hi Dark, I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump. For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a standing stop at the edge. But you could jump it if your were running. This would require an auto run feature so you don't have to hit a key to move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge. Then a jump key to hit when the time is right. This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely. So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful. For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it is eight feet wide. You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop. So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up in the pit. The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1 foot. A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so you would not get killed if you did not get across. Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your weapon. There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if you jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some damage if you over-jumped. Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Philip, Wow! Glad to hear it. It sounds like you are taking a page out of my playbook with the min and max range for weapons. That's something I have had in Mysteries of the Ancients for a long time now, and it definitely changes the strategy of the game somewhat. If you have a shotgun you need to stand back at least three feet in order to bring the barel up and shoot whatever it is you are trying to kill. Weapons like daggers are close range weapons so you can walk right up to whatever it is and stab it. I'm glad to see you have decided to take this approach as I've often thought it was a bit unrealistic that some games allow you to walk right up to an enemy and shoot them with a rifle etc from less than a foot away etc. Cheers! On 3/16/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Dark, Actually, there have been a few accessible games to use a true analogue system for jumping. If you remember the original Montezuma's Revenge written by Alchemy Game Studios used an analogue jump system. For the life of me I can't remember why I didn't go ahead and use it in the USA Games version, but I do know that the original version James North wrote definitely had an analogue jump system in place. Which is one of the few accessible games I know of to use that type of jump system. However, as I've mentioned several times today Mysteries of he Ancients beta 18 has had a huge improvement and major upgrade to its own jump mechanics. It now uses a true analogue jump system analogous to games like Super Mario Brothers or Tomb Raider Prophecy. So what you are hoping for is just around the corner as far as the next generation of accessible games are concerned. All of my future games will likely use an analogue jump system from now on. As for adding more dinamic effects to sounds is something I've aded to my todo.txt file. So if it doesn't get done in beta 18 it should hopefully be done before final release. For one thing I'm waiting on Philip Bennefall to release the new Streemway update to me so I can get my grubby paws on XAudio2. However, I'm one developer who is listening to you and am trying to implament as many of these things as humanly possible. Cheers! On 3/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Thomas, Oh my intention is definitely not to copy/steal Mota. In fact I have been deliberately avoiding playing the latest betas while I am developing the core of my game, as to avoid unintentionally copying things from you. If I am faced with a new concept to implement and I have just finished playing Mota where this concept is addressed I might be tempted to just reuse this idea, where as if I have no idea how other games do it I am forced to think for myself and come up with something new. So for this reason I haven't played Mota for the last 4 or 5 months, as much as I would like to. So anything that may be similar in terms of implementation, is certainly not intentional and I apologize if you feel that this is the case. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Philip, Wow! Glad to hear it. It sounds like you are taking a page out of my playbook with the min and max range for weapons. That's something I have had in Mysteries of the Ancients for a long time now, and it definitely changes the strategy of the game somewhat. If you have a shotgun you need to stand back at least three feet in order to bring the barel up and shoot whatever it is you are trying to kill. Weapons like daggers are close range weapons so you can walk right up to whatever it is and stab it. I'm glad to see you have decided to take this approach as I've often thought it was a bit unrealistic that some games allow you to walk right up to an enemy and shoot them with a rifle etc from less than a foot away etc. Cheers! On 3/16/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Dark, Its funny that you brought this topic up as I think you and I have been thinking on the same wave length lately. I've been considering this same issue for a number of months, and I agree one thing accessible games universally lack is realistic and dinamic movement. In Q9, for example, all you have to do is press the up arrow key and tap the arrow key x number of times to get over the pit. If I'm not mistaken Super Liam has this exact jump system as well. The problem with it is once you remember how many times to tap the arrow key there is little room for error, and you'll just remember to press up and right three times or whatever. As you say more mainstream games like Super Mario don't have it quite that easy. You really have to time your jumps, figure out where to jump from, and/or decide to do a running jump, etc. How long you hold down the jump button on the controller will determine in part how high and far you can jump. Not only that but there were other factors such as how big Mario was when jumping. If Mario was shrunk he couldn't jump as high or as far as he could when normal size or when he was Super Mario. It is these number of dinamic factors very few accessible game developers have largely ignored or have failed to consider in accessible games. That said, I don't see any reason why we couldn't begin doing this in accessible games. As I've already mentioned I've been updating Mysteries of the Ancients to include a more analogue jump system, and it looks like Philip Bennefall is looking into this as well. So hopefully a new generation of accessible platformers are about to be released in the not too distant future. However, I do agree using sound alone is problematic. It is something I'm working on, experimenting with, but there really is no easy way to identify if a row of spikes is above or below you just by sound alone. You can play around with pitch and things like that, but even then it can be difficult to figure out which is wich. Plus I've discovered if you change the pitch too much on certain sounds they just end up sounding down right weird and that ruins the atmosphere as much as having a game voice speaking the information. Perhaps mmore so in some cases. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Philip, Smile. Oh, I wasn't accusing you of copying MOTA. I was merely remarking/commenting on how glad I was that you were implamenting some of the more advanced features/concepts I've used in developing my own games. One thing I'm very interested in is realism. I.E. if you have a shotgun you shouldn't be able to blow an enemy skeleton away from one foot away. You need to stand back a few feet and then shoot it. Not many accessible game developers have really added these kinds of more advanced features/concepts which is a shame. As I pointed out it really does change the tactics and strategy as you really have to figure out the optimum min and max range for each weapon which is more challenging than just shooting blindly at a target from any distance. So I'm happy to know your next game will be using these kinds of game elements. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Thomas, Oh my intention is definitely not to copy/steal Mota. In fact I have been deliberately avoiding playing the latest betas while I am developing the core of my game, as to avoid unintentionally copying things from you. If I am faced with a new concept to implement and I have just finished playing Mota where this concept is addressed I might be tempted to just reuse this idea, where as if I have no idea how other games do it I am forced to think for myself and come up with something new. So for this reason I haven't played Mota for the last 4 or 5 months, as much as I would like to. So anything that may be similar in terms of implementation, is certainly not intentional and I apologize if you feel that this is the case. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
You could also take a generic pit sound and apply filters to it to change its timbre, so you have different sounds for pits to tell how narrow or wide they are. A narrow pit would sound like an oo, ahile a wide pit would be like an ah. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, That is quite a number of interesting points you raised here. I happen to agree with you on all points. In fact, this is in large part why Mysteries of the Ancients beta 18 is taking so long to release. I decided to go back in and rewrite some of the various game mechanics such as jumping to resemble that of the classic NES era games where the longer you hold down the jump button/keys the higher and further the main character will jump. As you said this requires a lot more skill and judgment of how long to hold down the buttons or keys before releasing them. As you know in beta 17 and earlier I had a very simple jump system in place where all you needed to do is press control+left arrow or control+right arrow and Angela would safely land on the other side of the pit, chasm, fire, lava, whatever just about every time. However, not only was that very easy it was also pretty boring. So what I did is I completely redesigned the jump mechanics to be more like classic NES games like Super Mario where you now have to time your jumps in order to make it safely to the other side of a trap. there have been a number of times where I have over estimated a jump or under estimated the length of a jump and Angela ended up impailed on a bronze spike, took a bath in hot boiling lava, or got roasted over a huge fire pit. For instance, one of the traps in the game is a large lava pit with a stone ledge hanging out over the middle of the pit. The trick to getting over the lava pit is to jump from one side of the pit up onto that hanging stone ledge, and jump from there to the other side of the pit. As you might have guessed this takes perfect timing and percision to do it correctly. If you misjudge the length of the jump Angela is going to have a very hot bath in lava. If you don't jump far enough Angela will not reach the ledge and fall into the lava. If you hold down the keys too long she'll jump over the stone ledge and land in the lava anyway. The key to successfully making it is listening very carefully to the drip, drip, drip, of the water dripping off that ledge and judge your jump as best as you can. This way insures you use both some skill and personal judgement to figure out how far and howlong to jump rather than Angela just landing on that ledge as soon as she is close to it as the game use to. So what you are suggesting here is very possible. I've been practicing with some of these ideas you suggested in beta 18, and I think it would be cool if more games started doing this as well. It makes jumping far more tricky and takes practice to get just right. I've learned from my own experience with MOTA beta 18 you won't get it right your first try in a lot of cases. As far as changing pitch of pits and stuff that's another good idea. I should probably put that down in my things to do list for beta 18. You have a point that the deeper the sound of the pit the larger the pit. The higher the sound the smaller it is and you should be able to determine its size by pitch alone rather than just using a look/view command to gather that information all the time. Cheers! On 3/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Phil. i agree this would be a good thing (though the business about damage for over jumping seems unnecessarily harsh to me), but I think your over complicating the situation more than it would need to be. As I said, the relative width of pits could be shown by altering the pitch of the sound. Say for instance a pit you could jump normally from the edge (to use your example a five foot or less), would have a high pitched wind sound, a pit which was jumpalbe with a long jump has a medium, and a pit which was not jumpable at all has a low ominous wind. A standard two step boundry would be more than enough even when running given the speed of character movement to tell you when your on the edge of a pit, heck, many people like myself play games like Q9 with the run button perminantly held anyway. As for jump hight relative to button pressing, well rail racers' jets are a perfect example of this. Of course, the player would need to practice and learn how long he/she has to hold the button for a given jump, but that is in fact my point, that many audio games would be considderably more addictive and interesting if they did! give the player a skill and form of jugement to learn by calculating
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Thomas, Ah, that is good. I misunderstood the message. Another topic which I think deserves some consideration and which I have been spending a lot of time on myself, is artificial intelligence. In a lot of sidescrollers the enemies are very generic. If player left, walk left. if player right, walk right. If player within range, fire. This bores me, and so I am really trying to step outside the box in this regard. My enemies employ proper pathfinding, and make intelligent decisions based on their surroundings and if they are being attacked etc. For instance, I had a chimpanzee who got angry with me, not because I hurt him but because I fired a shot near him and that made him take a strange dislike to me. So he chased me across half the jungle, even up into a tree where I fortunately managed to knock him down from the branch so that he went crashing onto the ground. After that, he got frightened and ran away from me. This sort of thing is as far from Q9 as you can get, where the enemies just move towards the player and attack. The creatures in my jungle actually interact with each other as well, not just with the player. It is particularly enjoyable listening to two boars fighting it out, or hearing a chimpanzee knock a little monkey down from a branch 16 feet up in the air. What I am trying to say is that AI really made a difference in the case of my game. A lot of people won't notice all the stuff I have spent time on, but the over-all feel of the characters is a lot more realistic one than the dumb search and destroy mentality that is implemented for the enemies in other similar games. What are your thoughts on this? Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Philip, Smile. Oh, I wasn't accusing you of copying MOTA. I was merely remarking/commenting on how glad I was that you were implamenting some of the more advanced features/concepts I've used in developing my own games. One thing I'm very interested in is realism. I.E. if you have a shotgun you shouldn't be able to blow an enemy skeleton away from one foot away. You need to stand back a few feet and then shoot it. Not many accessible game developers have really added these kinds of more advanced features/concepts which is a shame. As I pointed out it really does change the tactics and strategy as you really have to figure out the optimum min and max range for each weapon which is more challenging than just shooting blindly at a target from any distance. So I'm happy to know your next game will be using these kinds of game elements. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Thomas, Oh my intention is definitely not to copy/steal Mota. In fact I have been deliberately avoiding playing the latest betas while I am developing the core of my game, as to avoid unintentionally copying things from you. If I am faced with a new concept to implement and I have just finished playing Mota where this concept is addressed I might be tempted to just reuse this idea, where as if I have no idea how other games do it I am forced to think for myself and come up with something new. So for this reason I haven't played Mota for the last 4 or 5 months, as much as I would like to. So anything that may be similar in terms of implementation, is certainly not intentional and I apologize if you feel that this is the case. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Tom. Fantastic that a game is finally implementing this, in fact the lava ledge jumping you describe very much resembles a section from the first bowser castle in the first mario brothers. I'll deffinately be looking forward to trying this. As to difficulty, it'll be really nice to see an audio game who's difficulty comes from a player's judgement, rather than by simply sticking in too many things for the player to react to. Imho those sort of games are far more satisfying to get through. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Tom. Actually, I've only tried alchemy monti a couple of times last year and each time I got to a point where the game crashed (sinse the last usa games beta I have is far more complete and playable), so gave up with it, so I never noticed the analogue jumps. I never played it at the time it was originally released sinse that was in early 2006 and at that point I couldn't get version 1 of the net framework to run correctly, and by the time that problem was fixed the Alchemy montizumas revenge wasn't around anymore. Either way though I'll be glad to see these sorts of things implemented. They are things I've been wanting to see in audiogames for quite a long while. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
You can also use 3d audio to let you know if things are above or below you, though you'll have to find something better the Directx for that. There is a program called AM3D that is wonderful, being the same one used in the Blind Eye--but you don't really get a feel for how awesome it is by playing that. What you'd really have to do is play with the Diesel engine--and when you've got the helicopter directly under your chin, and you feel the need to itch your throat, you know you've found a good 3d audio engine. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi tom. Glad to here about the analogue system, but I do take the point regarding pitch only going so far, however there is another fact to considder, namely that of necessary information. I do not have a wide field of vision, and need to sit fairly close to the tv in order to see anything of a game like marrio, so I am not able to see the hole screen at once. yet, this isn't an obstacle to me playing sinse for all practical purposes the only relevant information is that immediately around my character. So, to take the lava pit example, suppose you had a lava pit with several ledges in the middle of it meaning you need to do a number of jumps to get across. having a hole bunch of dripping ledge sounds would doubtless be rather confusing for the player, however realistically, the only ledges the player needs to actually be focused on are those immediately left and right of his/her character. Using this principle, you can have as many ledges or ropes as you want, --- especially when you've got a way of checking your coordinates or what room your in, without worry of causing confusion. The last issue I can see with ledges in a platformer is showing their vertical position relative to the player. there are two possibilities I can think of to do this. 1, altering the pitch of the dripping water sound according to vertical position, though as you said this might be confusing. or 2, having a look up and down command which instead of giving you some sort of vocal information, gives you a sound based idea of what is above or below you, and based on the idea of only showing you necessary information, if you here a ledge above you you can jump there. So, you get to the edge of a pit and here nothing. you hit look up and here a ldripping water ledge sound which shows you that there is a ledge you can jump to above and right. The same principle could be used for hazards like spikes or flaimes, for instance having the look up command show you a bunch of spikes above you which will skewer you if you jump too high, or a look down command showing you a ledge below you that you can safely fall onto. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Philip. this ai business sounds interesting certainly and I have seen occasions in mainstream games where certain enemies used tactics based on the players' actions and thus fought semi inteligently even going back to the nes era. however, what I've tended to find in audio games is that the enemy's lack of interest isn't due to their tactics, so much as the games' essential lack of spacial dimention, and the fact that most audio game 2D enemies have one, and only one form of attack, namely hitting your character when he/she is close. In a mainstream game though, the fact that a, the terrain and b, the spacial dimentions of the game are more in evidence means that even generic search and destroy enemies are far more interesting. Take mario as an example. You have red cooper troopers which walk up and down on one ledge, and green ones which fall off ledges. This means, if your standing underneath a ledge with a cooper trooper on it, you must take into account which sort it is and adjust your tactics accordingly, ie, if it is green, wait for it to fall and then either avoid or kill it, where as if it is red, you'll need to wait for it to move away from the edge of the ledge before jumping up to deal with it. And this is even before we get onto subjects like firing bullits which may be jumped, ducked or only catch you while airborn, blocking your path, attacking in the air or on the ground, having some sort of shield against your attacks etc. While the alteration of the ai sounds fun, I'd myself prefer to see some alteration in attacks to make fighting enemies more interesting. This of course also goes right along with analogue jumps and altering distances, especially when your talking about enemies patrolling a certain area or firing in the air, --- -for instance having to time your jump across a pit when an enemy isn't shooting at you, or waiting for an enemy to retreat from across the other side of a pit before jumping over. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Dark, The enemies, or creatures in this case since the ones I have so far are just animals, do not have multiple types of attacks. I can give my characters any type of weapon, however, and they will adjust their tactics based on how they are armed. If a character has a knife, for instance, he will try to get close to you for obvious reasons where as if he has a rifle, he might try to avoid you and fire from a distance. This is still considerably better than a game such as Q9, and is part of the artificial intelligence features I mentioned. I am not a great fan of all these multiple attack type senarios because they tend to confuse me a great deal trying to remember how to perform certain moves etc. That detracts just as much from the over-all gaming experience for me as solving mazes does. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Philip. this ai business sounds interesting certainly and I have seen occasions in mainstream games where certain enemies used tactics based on the players' actions and thus fought semi inteligently even going back to the nes era. however, what I've tended to find in audio games is that the enemy's lack of interest isn't due to their tactics, so much as the games' essential lack of spacial dimention, and the fact that most audio game 2D enemies have one, and only one form of attack, namely hitting your character when he/she is close. In a mainstream game though, the fact that a, the terrain and b, the spacial dimentions of the game are more in evidence means that even generic search and destroy enemies are far more interesting. Take mario as an example. You have red cooper troopers which walk up and down on one ledge, and green ones which fall off ledges. This means, if your standing underneath a ledge with a cooper trooper on it, you must take into account which sort it is and adjust your tactics accordingly, ie, if it is green, wait for it to fall and then either avoid or kill it, where as if it is red, you'll need to wait for it to move away from the edge of the ledge before jumping up to deal with it. And this is even before we get onto subjects like firing bullits which may be jumped, ducked or only catch you while airborn, blocking your path, attacking in the air or on the ground, having some sort of shield against your attacks etc. While the alteration of the ai sounds fun, I'd myself prefer to see some alteration in attacks to make fighting enemies more interesting. This of course also goes right along with analogue jumps and altering distances, especially when your talking about enemies patrolling a certain area or firing in the air, --- -for instance having to time your jump across a pit when an enemy isn't shooting at you, or waiting for an enemy to retreat from across the other side of a pit before jumping over. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hey now--those are some pretty smart animals--knowing what type of weapon you have and what it does. I hate to see how devilishly smart your people are! Evil Grins Ken Downey --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hey there, To be honest I would have made it so you can shoot at your enemy with a gun if you were standing near it, since I don't know the mechanics of guns. I live in the UK and they are not allowed in our society and I've never really played around with any other weaponry. Grin. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Philip, Wow! Glad to hear it. It sounds like you are taking a page out of my playbook with the min and max range for weapons. That's something I have had in Mysteries of the Ancients for a long time now, and it definitely changes the strategy of the game somewhat. If you have a shotgun you need to stand back at least three feet in order to bring the barel up and shoot whatever it is you are trying to kill. Weapons like daggers are close range weapons so you can walk right up to whatever it is and stab it. I'm glad to see you have decided to take this approach as I've often thought it was a bit unrealistic that some games allow you to walk right up to an enemy and shoot them with a rifle etc from less than a foot away etc. Cheers! On 3/16/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Wow! Phil and Thomas making me looking forward to the release! I'm excited. Tommy - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 5:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, That is quite a number of interesting points you raised here. I happen to agree with you on all points. In fact, this is in large part why Mysteries of the Ancients beta 18 is taking so long to release. I decided to go back in and rewrite some of the various game mechanics such as jumping to resemble that of the classic NES era games where the longer you hold down the jump button/keys the higher and further the main character will jump. As you said this requires a lot more skill and judgment of how long to hold down the buttons or keys before releasing them. As you know in beta 17 and earlier I had a very simple jump system in place where all you needed to do is press control+left arrow or control+right arrow and Angela would safely land on the other side of the pit, chasm, fire, lava, whatever just about every time. However, not only was that very easy it was also pretty boring. So what I did is I completely redesigned the jump mechanics to be more like classic NES games like Super Mario where you now have to time your jumps in order to make it safely to the other side of a trap. there have been a number of times where I have over estimated a jump or under estimated the length of a jump and Angela ended up impailed on a bronze spike, took a bath in hot boiling lava, or got roasted over a huge fire pit. For instance, one of the traps in the game is a large lava pit with a stone ledge hanging out over the middle of the pit. The trick to getting over the lava pit is to jump from one side of the pit up onto that hanging stone ledge, and jump from there to the other side of the pit. As you might have guessed this takes perfect timing and percision to do it correctly. If you misjudge the length of the jump Angela is going to have a very hot bath in lava. If you don't jump far enough Angela will not reach the ledge and fall into the lava. If you hold down the keys too long she'll jump over the stone ledge and land in the lava anyway. The key to successfully making it is listening very carefully to the drip, drip, drip, of the water dripping off that ledge and judge your jump as best as you can. This way insures you use both some skill and personal judgement to figure out how far and howlong to jump rather than Angela just landing on that ledge as soon as she is close to it as the game use to. So what you are suggesting here is very possible. I've been practicing with some of these ideas you suggested in beta 18, and I think it would be cool if more games started doing this as well. It makes jumping far more tricky and takes practice to get just right. I've learned from my own experience with MOTA beta 18 you won't get it right your first try in a lot of cases. As far as changing pitch of pits and stuff that's another good idea. I should probably put that down in my things to do list for beta 18. You have a point that the deeper the sound of the pit the larger the pit. The higher the sound the smaller it is and you should be able to determine its size by pitch alone rather than just using a look/view command to gather that information all the time. Cheers! On 3/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Phil. i agree this would be a good thing (though the business about damage for over jumping seems unnecessarily harsh to me), but I think your over complicating the situation more than it would need to be. As I said, the relative width of pits could be shown by altering the pitch of the sound. Say for instance a pit you could jump normally from the edge (to use your example a five foot or less), would have a high pitched wind sound, a pit which was jumpalbe with a long jump has a medium, and a pit which was not jumpable at all has a low ominous wind. A standard two step boundry would be more than enough even when running given the speed of character movement to tell you when your on the edge of a pit, heck, many people like myself play games like Q9 with the run button perminantly held anyway. As for jump hight relative to button pressing, well rail racers' jets are a perfect example of this. Of course, the player would need to practice and learn how long he/she has to hold the button for a given jump, but that is in fact my point, that many audio games would be considderably more addictive and interesting if they did! give the player a skill and form of jugement to learn by calculating their characters movement according to the environment, rather than by working on a basic stimulous response model. Of course, starting easy (or non fatal), and getting harder would just be part of the experience. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Philip, Well, all I can say is you are right. Good high quality artificial intelligence is something that has been sorely lacking in most audio games to date. Of course, how advanced the artificial intelligence needs to be is dependant on the style of game in question For example, in Final Conflict I did my best to create a safisticated set of artificial intelligence for each of the enemy ships in the game. While the artificial intelligence in 1.x was decent that's something I plan on totally revising in 2.0 simply because the enemy attacks were uncoordinated, and it was too easy to basically split up the main battle group and pick them off one by one using superior firepower. If you could get the enemy battle group near one of your fully equipped and fully armed starbases the enemy fleet was toast. So even I admit while the artificial intelligence for that game was a good stab at a strategy game there were plenty of things that could have been done better. As for side-scrollers I admit to falling into the seak and destroy artificial intelligencetrap too. I suppose in a game like Mysteries of the Ancients where only one enemy is in a room at a time the walk left or walk right and attack player simple artificial intelligence works fine, but is boring like you say. I think what you are doing with the bores fighting eatch other, having a couple of monkeys fighting each other, etc is a much more realistic artificial intelligence system, and would be a lot more enjoyable over all. Something I haven't done yet myself, but I've been thinking of is having enemies have the ability to block as well as attack. For instance, the Zombie Warriors are equipped with swords and bronze shields. Logic would dictate they would be able to block swords, spear, and dagger attacks at least some of the time. That would make the fighting much more realistic and complex because the enemies would both block and attack when fighting. Using a bronze shield to deflect a pistol shot etc isn't out of the question either wwhich would make combat much more interesting. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Thomas, Ah, that is good. I misunderstood the message. Another topic which I think deserves some consideration and which I have been spending a lot of time on myself, is artificial intelligence. In a lot of sidescrollers the enemies are very generic. If player left, walk left. if player right, walk right. If player within range, fire. This bores me, and so I am really trying to step outside the box in this regard. My enemies employ proper pathfinding, and make intelligent decisions based on their surroundings and if they are being attacked etc. For instance, I had a chimpanzee who got angry with me, not because I hurt him but because I fired a shot near him and that made him take a strange dislike to me. So he chased me across half the jungle, even up into a tree where I fortunately managed to knock him down from the branch so that he went crashing onto the ground. After that, he got frightened and ran away from me. This sort of thing is as far from Q9 as you can get, where the enemies just move towards the player and attack. The creatures in my jungle actually interact with each other as well, not just with the player. It is particularly enjoyable listening to two boars fighting it out, or hearing a chimpanzee knock a little monkey down from a branch 16 feet up in the air. What I am trying to say is that AI really made a difference in the case of my game. A lot of people won't notice all the stuff I have spent time on, but the over-all feel of the characters is a lot more realistic one than the dumb search and destroy mentality that is implemented for the enemies in other similar games. What are your thoughts on this? Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Damien, Well, what Philip and i are talking about isn't so much the mechanics of guns, but simple logistics when firing them. If you have a shotgun or rifle three feet long there is no way on earth you can point it at a target one feet away because there is not enough room between you and the target to aim the barel at it. However, if you have something small like a .38 pistol, then you can walk right up to the enemy and pop a few rounds into it because that is a very small handgun. I would think that something like this would be common sense since you would have to account for the size and length of the gun in question. And while I'm on the subject this applies in general to any weapon. If you have a four foot long broadsword you have to have a good three or four feet between you and the enemy just to account for the length of the blade.That is not even considering the length of your arms that adds a couple of extra feet to your maximum striking range. It is these details that Philip and I feel are lacking in accessible games probably because game developers just don't stop to think about them that much, or they just don't know any different. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hey there, To be honest I would have made it so you can shoot at your enemy with a gun if you were standing near it, since I don't know the mechanics of guns. I live in the UK and they are not allowed in our society and I've never really played around with any other weaponry. Grin. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Ken, that's a big part of the problem though. Most VI gamers frankly don't have the right hardware/software to do 3d audio properly. I know XAudio2 is pretty good if you have a 5.1 surround sound set of headphones and/or speakers, but there we go looking at $99 or more just to obtain some hardware to reproduce the 3d audio properly. That's assuming they have a 5.1 or 7.1 sound card already. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: You can also use 3d audio to let you know if things are above or below you, though you'll have to find something better the Directx for that. There is a program called AM3D that is wonderful, being the same one used in the Blind Eye--but you don't really get a feel for how awesome it is by playing that. What you'd really have to do is play with the Diesel engine--and when you've got the helicopter directly under your chin, and you feel the need to itch your throat, you know you've found a good 3d audio engine. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Dark, Oh, you noticed? Super Mario Brothers is exactly where I got the idea for the lava pit from. Although, it doesn't appear in the demo since the demo only goes to level 2. However, there are a number of side-scrollers out there that have this style of jump onto a distant ledge, then use that ledge to jump safely to the other side etc. One of the more interesting twists on this theme is found in Tomb Raider Angel of Darkness. There is this room filled with lava from wall to wall, and there is a fire crystal on the far side of the room Lara has to retreave. The only way to get the fire crystal is to jump onto stones sticking up out of the lava. Obviously, there is way too much risk of over jumping a stone or simply not jumping far enough sending Lara screaming to her death in the lava below. What makes this trap especially evil is once Lara lands on a stone it begins sinking into the lava, and she can't use it again to get back out of the room. So not only do you have to guess the jumps correctly you need to make sure to plot a course that leaves enough stones left above the lava to use to get back out again. I'd love to eventually come up with a trap/puzzle that rivals something like that. Lol! Anyway, I agree that we need more games where the player has to use his her judgement to get passed certain traps rather than just reacting to this or that all the time. I've found with Mysteries of the Ancients that once a person discovers how to lower a bridge it is no longer a trap or problem any more. However, what makes a large chasm a real problem is if you have to do a running jump to cross one, because then you have to use some skill and judgement to time the jump just right rather than pulling a lever and getting a handy bridge. Cheers! On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Fantastic that a game is finally implementing this, in fact the lava ledge jumping you describe very much resembles a section from the first bowser castle in the first mario brothers. I'll deffinately be looking forward to trying this. As to difficulty, it'll be really nice to see an audio game who's difficulty comes from a player's judgement, rather than by simply sticking in too many things for the player to react to. Imho those sort of games are far more satisfying to get through. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
well I think pitches with tones, success bells and falier buzzes or whatever could work. if a game is arcade then you should have sfx of that machine for things. At 01:30 a.m. 17/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Philip. I do agree that relying entirely upon numeric look commands is not good, that's why I think more could be done with pitch as an indicator, either bying having relative wind sounds, or altering the sound denoting a certain ledge or obstacle according to it's distance. A look key might be a useful backup while the player is learning the relative significance of sound, but once the player has a litle practice it hopefully would be unnecessary. Though the view and context is very different, this was also my thinking when I suggested the wind sounds in entombed to denote space around the player, which does seem to have worked successfully. This is in fact what I did myself with shades of doom, I used to use the look commands constantly with the eva set on super verbose, but then I turned the setting down and finally didn't use it at all. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Philip. I'm afraid as an exploration fan and a fan of diverse enemies I myself would rather like more attacks to avoid, giving each enemy something unique and making something new for the player to adjust to in each level, then again I also enjoy large areas to explore as well. Certainly your ai does sound incredibly unique and also it sounds as if tactics will be needed such as waiting until enemies have finished each other off or leading one creature to another in hopes of initiating a fight. I'll be interested to see how this one works out. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Tom. oh come on, you can deffinately aime at a targit in front of you with a three foot rifle, you just need extremly bendy elbows! yes I can see it now, the new super heroe, Yoga man, no position too complex, no contortion too hard, villains will bend to his superior double jointedness ;D. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Tom. no, that isn't actually what I was thinking at all. imagine a system of coordinates, and you are on a ledge at 3-2, but here nothing to the right of you, just a long pit. However, if you activate the look up command, instead of hereing just that pit to the right of you, you will here the normal ledge sound of a ledge at 4-3, directly above and to the right of your current position. The sound of the ledge does not change in pitch, but you know it is there sinse you have activated the look up function, and can therefore jump up and to the right. The same could be true if there was a ledge at 4-1, just below your position if you activated look down. This would let you build more complex jumping structures such as those found in games like mega man and marrio showing what is above and below the character rather than what is just immediately to the right or left of them or having to rely upon pitch. Another way of thinking about it might be that in looking up you are virtually changing your characters position, pretending that he/she is at coordinates 4-2 instead of 3-2, thus allowing you to here what is up there to the right and left. This is a similar concept to the idea of scrolling the screen with look commands. i can't recall if any nes era games did this, though quite a few snes and mega drive ones such as super starwars and micky mouse castle of illusion certainly did. It just strikes me this is a way to get more mileage out of 2D sterrio sound and a better way to show what is above and below your character. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Tom. Funnily enough there is a very similar 2D version of that style of puzle in junk man's stage in MEga man 7 for the Snes, where using one of Mega man's weapons can cause metal bricks to fall down from the cieling into a pit of liquid metal. Only problem is, they start sinking so you need to be fairly sparing with that particular weapon. I'll certainly be interested to see more of these sorts of things in audio. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
HI Dark, Oh, I see. As it happens MOTA does have a look up/down feature, but it was disabled prior to beta 18. The problem I have with your idea is that as you climb up/down ropes you actually need to here where the dripping ledges are in relation to you as you climb. IN a case like that looking up/down to find out where the ledges are would not be too cool. The best compromise in a case like that is to increase the pitch of the water dripping the higher it is from you and decrease the pitch the further below you it is. this would work for the lava pit idea as well because if it is a high pitch drip you would realise that the ledge is above and to the left without having to use any look commands in the first place. Another case where the look up/down wouldn't work as you describe it has to do with enemies. For example, the harpies are a flying enemy. Regardless if they are flying above, below, or at the same level as you you should be able to hear there location at all times. Having them only make noise when you happen to be looking the right way would not be too cool. Claw, swish, scratch. Ouch! What was that? Oh, just a harpy flying above me I didn't hear. Cheers! On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. no, that isn't actually what I was thinking at all. imagine a system of coordinates, and you are on a ledge at 3-2, but here nothing to the right of you, just a long pit. However, if you activate the look up command, instead of hereing just that pit to the right of you, you will here the normal ledge sound of a ledge at 4-3, directly above and to the right of your current position. The sound of the ledge does not change in pitch, but you know it is there sinse you have activated the look up function, and can therefore jump up and to the right. The same could be true if there was a ledge at 4-1, just below your position if you activated look down. This would let you build more complex jumping structures such as those found in games like mega man and marrio showing what is above and below the character rather than what is just immediately to the right or left of them or having to rely upon pitch. Another way of thinking about it might be that in looking up you are virtually changing your characters position, pretending that he/she is at coordinates 4-2 instead of 3-2, thus allowing you to here what is up there to the right and left. This is a similar concept to the idea of scrolling the screen with look commands. i can't recall if any nes era games did this, though quite a few snes and mega drive ones such as super starwars and micky mouse castle of illusion certainly did. It just strikes me this is a way to get more mileage out of 2D sterrio sound and a better way to show what is above and below your character. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Thomas, To be honest I didn't. As pretty much a beginner in audio games, only seeing the basics in them, that is the only thing I know. True, I could have perhaps thought better about what other in-game characters might do, but since I have only seen a search and destroy tactic, that's all I have ever attempted programming. Again, perhaps with different weaponry, I could have tried my imagination at, but in all honesty I don't know anything about weapons except they are used for fighting. Different lengths, mechanics and attack strategies would have never crossed my mind. For all I knew, guns were something you fired by pulling a trigger. I wouldn't have known if a gun was pocket size or the size of, say, a javelin. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Damien, Well, what Philip and i are talking about isn't so much the mechanics of guns, but simple logistics when firing them. If you have a shotgun or rifle three feet long there is no way on earth you can point it at a target one feet away because there is not enough room between you and the target to aim the barel at it. However, if you have something small like a .38 pistol, then you can walk right up to the enemy and pop a few rounds into it because that is a very small handgun. I would think that something like this would be common sense since you would have to account for the size and length of the gun in question. And while I'm on the subject this applies in general to any weapon. If you have a four foot long broadsword you have to have a good three or four feet between you and the enemy just to account for the length of the blade.That is not even considering the length of your arms that adds a couple of extra feet to your maximum striking range. It is these details that Philip and I feel are lacking in accessible games probably because game developers just don't stop to think about them that much, or they just don't know any different. Cheers! On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hey there, To be honest I would have made it so you can shoot at your enemy with a gun if you were standing near it, since I don't know the mechanics of guns. I live in the UK and they are not allowed in our society and I've never really played around with any other weaponry. Grin. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Thomas, Oh wow! Now we're really looking into advanced concepts here! I expect it would feel just about as complicated to a newby gamer to play it as it would be for somebody to program it. Grin. I hope I can do it and look forward to seeing some of it. I'm not really a hardcore gamer but this will probably turn things around for me as far as gaming goes. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, Oh, you noticed? Super Mario Brothers is exactly where I got the idea for the lava pit from. Although, it doesn't appear in the demo since the demo only goes to level 2. However, there are a number of side-scrollers out there that have this style of jump onto a distant ledge, then use that ledge to jump safely to the other side etc. One of the more interesting twists on this theme is found in Tomb Raider Angel of Darkness. There is this room filled with lava from wall to wall, and there is a fire crystal on the far side of the room Lara has to retreave. The only way to get the fire crystal is to jump onto stones sticking up out of the lava. Obviously, there is way too much risk of over jumping a stone or simply not jumping far enough sending Lara screaming to her death in the lava below. What makes this trap especially evil is once Lara lands on a stone it begins sinking into the lava, and she can't use it again to get back out of the room. So not only do you have to guess the jumps correctly you need to make sure to plot a course that leaves enough stones left above the lava to use to get back out again. I'd love to eventually come up with a trap/puzzle that rivals something like that. Lol! Anyway, I agree that we need more games where the player has to use his her judgement to get passed certain traps rather than just reacting to this or that all the time. I've found with Mysteries of the Ancients that once a person discovers how to lower a bridge it is no longer a trap or problem any more. However, what makes a large chasm a real problem is if you have to do a running jump to cross one, because then you have to use some skill and judgement to time the jump just right rather than pulling a lever and getting a handy bridge. Cheers! On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Fantastic that a game is finally implementing this, in fact the lava ledge jumping you describe very much resembles a section from the first bowser castle in the first mario brothers. I'll deffinately be looking forward to trying this. As to difficulty, it'll be really nice to see an audio game who's difficulty comes from a player's judgement, rather than by simply sticking in too many things for the player to react to. Imho those sort of games are far more satisfying to get through. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Tom. that is true regarding ropes, though with the harpies example I was going on the basis that something flying above you is not at the same level as you and thus cannot attack unless it's dropping bombs or similar. At the moment, for all gameplay purposes the harpies seem to be on the same horizontal plane as yourself as far as attacks and defense is concerned, and they only seem to attack horrizontally too, though if your changing this fair enough. I do however think the pitch idea is quite possible, and could be used to show more complex ledge configurations requiring more work from he player to get around. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi. My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I could play my snes again. This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as Mario all stars and Super metroid. By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback. The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have really! deteriorated. I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with the answer. Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in sound, a lot of audio games, even highly detailed and well put together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to more and more quickly and correctly. Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it. These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or complexity of the players' responses. Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more randomized factors on top. At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 undoubtedly take it a lot further. The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed. A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity of a players response. yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, but these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the player to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes, and it is that judgement which can be renewed. For instance, in Q9, when you come to a pit, it's simply necessary to press jump and hit the right arrow enough times. In marrio however, the distance you jump is controled by a, how long you hold down the jump button, b, how fast your running when you begin the jump, and c, where you jump from. Then, there is the question of landing, sinse if you land from a long jump your stopping distance will not be immediate, meaning you might for instance jump a pit but slide streight into a monster just afterwards if your not careful. I think part of this difference is due to the fact that it's more difficult to show multiple objects in sound, and thus develope the sort of more involved physics which requires the players' judgement as well as their reflexes, however while showing information (paticularly what is above or below your character), could be difficult, i do certainly thing more could be done than currently exists, especially in the matter of altering the characters' movement and physics so as to be more complex. Of course, some audio games do have more complex mechanics to take into account such as the first person games like Shades of doom and Jim's golf game. But it does seem that we have rather too many games which go on the basic principle of here x, give response y, rather than considdering the physics and operation of in game objects. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi dark. I have read this with interest. I never quite thought about it in the way you have described. The thing is though I'm not entirely sure how you would get around that in an audio medium. Visually you can judge when you jump and how high you jump. But without adding extra sound into the mix which could have an impact on the environment of the game then I don't quite know how 1 would go about working round this. For example, take an action game, it wouldn't be possible always to stop, hear a description of how far you would have to jump to x point so then be able to make that judgement. You would have to run and jump. I think that when it comes to audio only games the challenges would have to be significantly different to that of a game that deals with both audio and visual input. For example, you may not have to worry about how far you have to jump, but when you get to the other side, you could be attacked without warning that's certainly feasible. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 16 March 2011 11:20 To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi. My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I could play my snes again. This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as Mario all stars and Super metroid. By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback. The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have really! deteriorated. I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with the answer. Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in sound, a lot of audio games, even highly detailed and well put together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to more and more quickly and correctly. Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it. These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or complexity of the players' responses. Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more randomized factors on top. At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 undoubtedly take it a lot further. The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed. A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity of a players response. yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, but these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the player to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes, and it is that judgement which can be renewed. For instance, in Q9, when you come to a pit, it's simply necessary to press jump and hit the right arrow enough times. In marrio however, the distance you jump is controled by a, how long you hold down the jump button, b, how fast your running when you begin the jump, and c, where you jump from. Then, there is the question of landing, sinse if you land from a long jump your stopping distance will not be immediate, meaning you might for instance jump a pit but slide streight into a monster just afterwards if your not careful. I think part of this difference is due to the fact that it's more difficult to show multiple objects in sound, and thus develope the sort of more involved physics which requires the players' judgement as well as their reflexes, however while showing information (paticularly what is above or below your character), could be difficult, i do certainly thing more could be done than currently exists, especially in the matter of altering the characters' movement and physics so as to be more complex. Of course, some audio games do have more complex mechanics to take into account such as the first person games like Shades of doom and Jim's golf game. But it does seem that we have rather too many games which go on the basic principle of here x, give response y, rather
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Dark, I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump. For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a standing stop at the edge. But you could jump it if your were running. This would require an auto run feature so you don't have to hit a key to move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge. Then a jump key to hit when the time is right. This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely. So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful. For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it is eight feet wide. You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop. So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up in the pit. The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1 foot. A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so you would not get killed if you did not get across. Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your weapon. There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if you jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some damage if you over-jumped. Phil - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi. My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I could play my snes again. This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as Mario all stars and Super metroid. By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback. The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have really! deteriorated. I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with the answer. Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in sound, a lot of audio games, even highly detailed and well put together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to more and more quickly and correctly. Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it. These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or complexity of the players' responses. Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more randomized factors on top. At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 undoubtedly take it a lot further. The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed. A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity of a players response. yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, but these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the player to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes, and it is that judgement which can be renewed. For instance, in Q9, when you come to a pit, it's simply necessary to press jump and hit the right arrow enough times. In marrio however, the distance you jump is controled by a, how long you hold down the jump button, b, how fast your running when you begin the jump, and c, where you jump from. Then, there is the question of landing, sinse if you land from a long jump your stopping distance will not be immediate, meaning you might for instance jump a pit but slide streight into a monster just afterwards if your not careful. I think part of this difference is due to the fact that it's more difficult to show multiple objects in sound, and thus develope the sort of more involved physics which requires the players' judgement as well as their reflexes, however while showing information (paticularly what is above or below your character), could be difficult, i do certainly thing more could be done than currently exists, especially in the matter of altering
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Philip. these are actually some of the ideas I was very much thinking of, especially the business about running. I'll be interested to try this one when it's ready. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Phil, I like this idea, but the thing that springs to mind immediately is the feedback you mention. Having a voice telling me that a pit is 8 feet wide or that I jumped 7 feet would kill the atmosphere very effectively for me. It has blind accessible audio game written all over its face, if you know what I mean. If one could design it so that there is just auditory rather than speech feedback, I think that would be a very different thing. For example I was opposed to including a looking feature in my upcoming game as I feel that it spoils the atmosphere in a similar fashion, but I ended up including it in the end because I could think of no other way to tell you exactly where branches are for example. I did not use a menu, but rather a method that does not interrupt the game play as I am personally of the opinion that an in game menu that stops the action in an atmospheric adventure title is the worst possible thing that could happen tot he over-all experience. Any thoughts? Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump. For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a standing stop at the edge. But you could jump it if your were running. This would require an auto run feature so you don't have to hit a key to move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge. Then a jump key to hit when the time is right. This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely. So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful. For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it is eight feet wide. You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop. So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up in the pit. The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1 foot. A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so you would not get killed if you did not get across. Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your weapon. There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if you jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some damage if you over-jumped. Phil - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi. My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I could play my snes again. This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as Mario all stars and Super metroid. By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback. The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have really! deteriorated. I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with the answer. Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in sound, a lot of audio games, even highly detailed and well put together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to more and more quickly and correctly. Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it. These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or complexity of the players' responses. Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more randomized factors on top. At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 undoubtedly take it a lot further. The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed. A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity of a players response. yes, the player may have to respond quickly
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Phil. i agree this would be a good thing (though the business about damage for over jumping seems unnecessarily harsh to me), but I think your over complicating the situation more than it would need to be. As I said, the relative width of pits could be shown by altering the pitch of the sound. Say for instance a pit you could jump normally from the edge (to use your example a five foot or less), would have a high pitched wind sound, a pit which was jumpalbe with a long jump has a medium, and a pit which was not jumpable at all has a low ominous wind. A standard two step boundry would be more than enough even when running given the speed of character movement to tell you when your on the edge of a pit, heck, many people like myself play games like Q9 with the run button perminantly held anyway. As for jump hight relative to button pressing, well rail racers' jets are a perfect example of this. Of course, the player would need to practice and learn how long he/she has to hold the button for a given jump, but that is in fact my point, that many audio games would be considderably more addictive and interesting if they did! give the player a skill and form of jugement to learn by calculating their characters movement according to the environment, rather than by working on a basic stimulous response model. Of course, starting easy (or non fatal), and getting harder would just be part of the experience. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Philip. I do agree that relying entirely upon numeric look commands is not good, that's why I think more could be done with pitch as an indicator, either bying having relative wind sounds, or altering the sound denoting a certain ledge or obstacle according to it's distance. A look key might be a useful backup while the player is learning the relative significance of sound, but once the player has a litle practice it hopefully would be unnecessary. Though the view and context is very different, this was also my thinking when I suggested the wind sounds in entombed to denote space around the player, which does seem to have worked successfully. This is in fact what I did myself with shades of doom, I used to use the look commands constantly with the eva set on super verbose, but then I turned the setting down and finally didn't use it at all. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Philip, I think the chasms or pits could have different sounds indicating how wide they are. A constant whoosh sound could be a small pit you could easily jump over. a whoosh whoosh sound sounding and stopping in a loop could be one you would have to take a running jump to get over. And a whoosh sound that rises and lowers in pitch could be one you would need help, either by finding another way or lowering a bridge or swinging over on a vine. These different pit sounds could be described in a sound help feature. As for feedback on your jump. That might only happen if you missed the jump, sort of a coach telling you that you missed the edge short one foot or long two feet. Either way you would would be injured and stopped from moving long enough to catch your breath or take a healing potion. Or you could have a training level that would give you verbal feedback if you need it but shut up if you don't need it. Phil - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Phil, I like this idea, but the thing that springs to mind immediately is the feedback you mention. Having a voice telling me that a pit is 8 feet wide or that I jumped 7 feet would kill the atmosphere very effectively for me. It has blind accessible audio game written all over its face, if you know what I mean. If one could design it so that there is just auditory rather than speech feedback, I think that would be a very different thing. For example I was opposed to including a looking feature in my upcoming game as I feel that it spoils the atmosphere in a similar fashion, but I ended up including it in the end because I could think of no other way to tell you exactly where branches are for example. I did not use a menu, but rather a method that does not interrupt the game play as I am personally of the opinion that an in game menu that stops the action in an atmospheric adventure title is the worst possible thing that could happen tot he over-all experience. Any thoughts? Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump. For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a standing stop at the edge. But you could jump it if your were running. This would require an auto run feature so you don't have to hit a key to move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge. Then a jump key to hit when the time is right. This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely. So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful. For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it is eight feet wide. You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop. So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up in the pit. The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1 foot. A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so you would not get killed if you did not get across. Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your weapon. There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if you jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some damage if you over-jumped. Phil - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi. My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I could play my snes again. This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as Mario all stars and Super metroid. By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback. The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have really! deteriorated. I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with the answer. Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in sound, a lot of audio games, even highly detailed and well put together ones like Q9
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Yep, that's why I don't play too many games anymore. It's too much like playing Bopit. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi. My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I could play my snes again. This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as Mario all stars and Super metroid. By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback. The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have really! deteriorated. I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with the answer. Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in sound, a lot of audio games, even highly detailed and well put together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to more and more quickly and correctly. Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it. These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or complexity of the players' responses. Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more randomized factors on top. At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 undoubtedly take it a lot further. The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed. A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity of a players response. yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, but these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the player to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes, and it is that judgement which can be renewed. For instance, in Q9, when you come to a pit, it's simply necessary to press jump and hit the right arrow enough times. In marrio however, the distance you jump is controled by a, how long you hold down the jump button, b, how fast your running when you begin the jump, and c, where you jump from. Then, there is the question of landing, sinse if you land from a long jump your stopping distance will not be immediate, meaning you might for instance jump a pit but slide streight into a monster just afterwards if your not careful. I think part of this difference is due to the fact that it's more difficult to show multiple objects in sound, and thus develope the sort of more involved physics which requires the players' judgement as well as their reflexes, however while showing information (paticularly what is above or below your character), could be difficult, i do certainly thing more could be done than currently exists, especially in the matter of altering the characters' movement and physics so as to be more complex. Of course, some audio games do have more complex mechanics to take into account such as the first person games like Shades of doom and Jim's golf game. But it does seem that we have rather too many games which go on the basic principle of here x, give response y, rather than considdering the physics and operation of in game objects. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
What about a practice mode that kicks in when you die? Let's say you're at the edge of a pit, you jump it but run into a monster. Instead of dying, you get a redo. You again find yourself at the edge of the pit, jumping. You can't slow down--you're already in the air, so what do you do? Maybe you start shooting or kicking as soon as you land, or maybe you pivot your feet so you take off in a new direction. I know that when I play Audio Quake, (the episodes not the death matches,) I have to learn a particular area by practice. Yeah, this is sounding more and more like the same as before, huh? It's just ore and more of the same as before, I said, Gotta get to the cool new games store. they've got hard-core action and puzzles galore, but till then it'll be just like before! Oh man, I must be tired. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:38 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi dark. I have read this with interest. I never quite thought about it in the way you have described. The thing is though I'm not entirely sure how you would get around that in an audio medium. Visually you can judge when you jump and how high you jump. But without adding extra sound into the mix which could have an impact on the environment of the game then I don't quite know how 1 would go about working round this. For example, take an action game, it wouldn't be possible always to stop, hear a description of how far you would have to jump to x point so then be able to make that judgement. You would have to run and jump. I think that when it comes to audio only games the challenges would have to be significantly different to that of a game that deals with both audio and visual input. For example, you may not have to worry about how far you have to jump, but when you get to the other side, you could be attacked without warning that's certainly feasible. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 16 March 2011 11:20 To: Gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi. My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I could play my snes again. This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as Mario all stars and Super metroid. By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback. The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have really! deteriorated. I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with the answer. Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in sound, a lot of audio games, even highly detailed and well put together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to more and more quickly and correctly. Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it. These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or complexity of the players' responses. Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more randomized factors on top. At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 undoubtedly take it a lot further. The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed. A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity of a players response. yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, but these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the player to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes, and it is that judgement which can be renewed. For instance, in Q9, when you come to a pit, it's simply necessary to press jump and hit the right arrow
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hey Philip, how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps? Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Another thing I've mentioned before is that walls, pits and so on could have echoes, just like in the real world, but exaggerated somewhat so as to be more audible. If you hear an echo a quarter second after you make a sound--such as take a step, you'd know you were about 250 feet away. You wouldn't calculate it mathematically after a while, you 'd just know. Reverb could be applied to certain areas too--the bathroom reverb for a pit for instance. I actually think a controlled flange might be easier to use than trying to manipulate echoes, but I don't know. That is why the big boys are out programming games, and the rest of us are just throwing ideas at y'all. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump. For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a standing stop at the edge. But you could jump it if your were running. This would require an auto run feature so you don't have to hit a key to move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge. Then a jump key to hit when the time is right. This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely. So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful. For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it is eight feet wide. You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop. So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up in the pit. The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1 foot. A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so you would not get killed if you did not get across. Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your weapon. There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if you jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some damage if you over-jumped. Phil - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi. My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I could play my snes again. This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as Mario all stars and Super metroid. By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback. The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have really! deteriorated. I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with the answer. Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in sound, a lot of audio games, even highly detailed and well put together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to more and more quickly and correctly. Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it. These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or complexity of the players' responses. Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more randomized factors on top. At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 undoubtedly take it a lot further. The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed. A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity of a players response. yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, but these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the player to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
On the Q9. That would be cool that you could unlock more characters each one of them have different story. That's would be awesome! Tommy - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Well, having any kind of standard boundary is not necessarily good. A character already weakened and near death is not going to jump a wide pit from two steps away. He'll need to get right up on the edge to jump, since his strength is waning. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Phil. i agree this would be a good thing (though the business about damage for over jumping seems unnecessarily harsh to me), but I think your over complicating the situation more than it would need to be. As I said, the relative width of pits could be shown by altering the pitch of the sound. Say for instance a pit you could jump normally from the edge (to use your example a five foot or less), would have a high pitched wind sound, a pit which was jumpalbe with a long jump has a medium, and a pit which was not jumpable at all has a low ominous wind. A standard two step boundry would be more than enough even when running given the speed of character movement to tell you when your on the edge of a pit, heck, many people like myself play games like Q9 with the run button perminantly held anyway. As for jump hight relative to button pressing, well rail racers' jets are a perfect example of this. Of course, the player would need to practice and learn how long he/she has to hold the button for a given jump, but that is in fact my point, that many audio games would be considderably more addictive and interesting if they did! give the player a skill and form of jugement to learn by calculating their characters movement according to the environment, rather than by working on a basic stimulous response model. Of course, starting easy (or non fatal), and getting harder would just be part of the experience. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Not only that, but picture this scenario, that comes from the Over the Hedge game for the Nintendo DS. I don't know the whole story, but you have to get a raccoon, a turtle and some other animal into a house to get food--something like that. So you move all the animals toward the goal, but then there's a switch on the wall you need to hit to open the gate. You try placing the turtle near the switch, having the fox or whatever stand on the turtle's back, then having the raccoon stand on the fox and hit the switch--but it just doesn't work. Finally, in desperation, you become the fox, pick up the useless stupid turtle and throw it at the switch--and voila, the turtle hits it and the gate opens. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Tommy to...@sirinet.net To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio On the Q9. That would be cool that you could unlock more characters each one of them have different story. That's would be awesome! Tommy - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi if it's better than q-9 then it'll be a knock out! As long as it's got wepons Smile - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Ken, You only really have one type of boots and I am trying to avoid slowing down the character's actions based on health. This is mainly because a few injuries would give you such a serious disadvantage so you might as well stop playing and restart. This is obviously going away from real world conditions somewhat, but I feel that this is needed to give the player a fair chance. I do have it set up so that you cannot run on certain surfaces such as branches, however. The idea about effects is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit myself. Since I am upgrading from DirectSound to XAudio2, I can now use real-time dynamic effects both on Windows XP, and Vista and 7 which is not possible with DirectSound. So it is very probable that I will be including effects in my game. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hey Philip, how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps? Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Matheus, As you say, I don't generally give release dates because public pressure is not something I want to deal with. When is it going to be out, how is it going etc are messages that drive me up the wall if I get them in multitude. I can say, however, that I am coming along very well and that it should not be terribly long before I am finished. My work is sped up considerably since I am now scripting in BGT rather than writing C++ code directly. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Matheus r.c. souza an...@bol.com.br To: phi...@blastbay.com Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:48 PM Subject: Re: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio hi philip. how's the developed of this new game? we haven't eard anything since last year, i know that you don't like giving rlease dates and stuff, but the game is almost complete, or it will still take a while, like 6 months or so? thanks, can't wait. -Mensagem original- De: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com Para: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Data: Quarta, 16 de Março de 2011 13:07 Assunto: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Philip, also if your player is hurt would they not slow down because they're in pain or something? You could get a health bonus then they spead back up again to normal. - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hey Philip, how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps? Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
I like the one in q-9 when he goes hurrteling down to oblivian, it's a good efect. - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Another thing I've mentioned before is that walls, pits and so on could have echoes, just like in the real world, but exaggerated somewhat so as to be more audible. If you hear an echo a quarter second after you make a sound--such as take a step, you'd know you were about 250 feet away. You wouldn't calculate it mathematically after a while, you 'd just know. Reverb could be applied to certain areas too--the bathroom reverb for a pit for instance. I actually think a controlled flange might be easier to use than trying to manipulate echoes, but I don't know. That is why the big boys are out programming games, and the rest of us are just throwing ideas at y'all. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump. For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a standing stop at the edge. But you could jump it if your were running. This would require an auto run feature so you don't have to hit a key to move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge. Then a jump key to hit when the time is right. This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely. So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful. For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it is eight feet wide. You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop. So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up in the pit. The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1 foot. A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so you would not get killed if you did not get across. Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your weapon. There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if you jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some damage if you over-jumped. Phil - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi. My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I could play my snes again. This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as Mario all stars and Super metroid. By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback. The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have really! deteriorated. I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with the answer. Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in sound, a lot of audio games, even highly detailed and well put together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to more and more quickly and correctly. Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it. These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or complexity of the players' responses. Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more randomized factors on top. At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 undoubtedly take it a lot further. The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed. A game like
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Yes, wish I knew what those demon things were saying, they sound like they're grumbeling about the lack of wages and long working hours Smile - Original Message - From: Tommy to...@sirinet.net To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio On the Q9. That would be cool that you could unlock more characters each one of them have different story. That's would be awesome! Tommy - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
While I've seen some games that penalize an ability due to low health, eg, taking a power up off you when you get hit, I think actually peanlizing the characters' movement would indeed be unnecessarily harsh and end up as more of an annoyence. even resident evil, which was extremely realistic in the way characters were damaged tec didn't do this. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Ken, You only really have one type of boots and I am trying to avoid slowing down the character's actions based on health. This is mainly because a few injuries would give you such a serious disadvantage so you might as well stop playing and restart. This is obviously going away from real world conditions somewhat, but I feel that this is needed to give the player a fair chance. I do have it set up so that you cannot run on certain surfaces such as branches, however. The idea about effects is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit myself. Since I am upgrading from DirectSound to XAudio2, I can now use real-time dynamic effects both on Windows XP, and Vista and 7 which is not possible with DirectSound. So it is very probable that I will be including effects in my game. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hey Philip, how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps? Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Ok to ask a stupid question. What is space sound? Is it a new space game? Where can I grab it to test it out? Ron Ron Kolesar kolesar16...@roadrunner.com -- From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:10 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Ken, You only really have one type of boots and I am trying to avoid slowing down the character's actions based on health. This is mainly because a few injuries would give you such a serious disadvantage so you might as well stop playing and restart. This is obviously going away from real world conditions somewhat, but I feel that this is needed to give the player a fair chance. I do have it set up so that you cannot run on certain surfaces such as branches, however. The idea about effects is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit myself. Since I am upgrading from DirectSound to XAudio2, I can now use real-time dynamic effects both on Windows XP, and Vista and 7 which is not possible with DirectSound. So it is very probable that I will be including effects in my game. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hey Philip, how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps? Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hmmm ron. I think you got the wrong end of the stick there. I'm not talking about a game, but an aspect of gameplay, ie, the space around your character. You might considder having a look at the gamers list public archives for the full discussion. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
If you make med kits a bit more available, and the game was engrossing enough, I think the slight slowing of a character would just add to the complexity. That way, it's not just the Okay, I'm two steps away from a pit, time to jump, kind of thing, but, okay, I'm two steps away from a pit, my health is at 50 percent. How close should I get? If I get too close the monster will get me. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio While I've seen some games that penalize an ability due to low health, eg, taking a power up off you when you get hit, I think actually peanlizing the characters' movement would indeed be unnecessarily harsh and end up as more of an annoyence. even resident evil, which was extremely realistic in the way characters were damaged tec didn't do this. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Ken, You only really have one type of boots and I am trying to avoid slowing down the character's actions based on health. This is mainly because a few injuries would give you such a serious disadvantage so you might as well stop playing and restart. This is obviously going away from real world conditions somewhat, but I feel that this is needed to give the player a fair chance. I do have it set up so that you cannot run on certain surfaces such as branches, however. The idea about effects is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit myself. Since I am upgrading from DirectSound to XAudio2, I can now use real-time dynamic effects both on Windows XP, and Vista and 7 which is not possible with DirectSound. So it is very probable that I will be including effects in my game. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hey Philip, how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps? Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Oh, I thought he was just being a smart aleck, making fun of the way so many gamers post. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hmmm ron. I think you got the wrong end of the stick there. I'm not talking about a game, but an aspect of gameplay, ie, the space around your character. You might considder having a look at the gamers list public archives for the full discussion. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi Dark, Could you possibly leave the message you are replying to at the bottom? Not a big deal; just wondering. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:18 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hmmm ron. I think you got the wrong end of the stick there. I'm not talking about a game, but an aspect of gameplay, ie, the space around your character. You might considder having a look at the gamers list public archives for the full discussion. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio
Hi, Phillip...Philip...do you have to make us want to snatch the game off your computer right now? Grin Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Lori Duncan Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 9:07 AM To: Philip Bennefall; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi if it's better than q-9 then it'll be a knock out! As long as it's got wepons Smile - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hi Dark, In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio Hello Darren. Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the head. You talk about showing in audio how far to jump say like in Jim's golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance. However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round it, rather than there being a set way. For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back. While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits to making addictive games are hugely worth it. To take your example, look at these two different situations: 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must defend yourself the instance after. or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across. the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that attack once your across the pit. The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to take into account the environment around you. I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance, using the pitch of wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before engagin in attacks with them. Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a button not merely pressing it. This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched
