RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
I figured you would probably use them all before the nuts would arrive... The UM's and UML's needed to be re-tooled due to the fact that after so many parts, tooling needs to be replaced. We went with the stamped bases due to the fact that the overall consistency is better on the parts and are as strong or stronger. Happy New Year! Regards, Ben Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 1:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the offer Ben. But we'll have all of these units out in the field long before you can get a box of nuts to me! If it REALLY bothers me, I'll just run down to the local hardware store and buy my own nuts. grin It's MUCH more fun to pick on you guys once in a while though. evil grin Say, I have a question for you. When and why did you move from the welded to the stamped base plates for the Sat. arms? I'd guess that they are a bit cheaper to make, but the material seems thinner. Are they as strong? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Marketing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > George, > > We are definitely listening. This will be changed going forward. If you > need some additional flange nuts (7/16), let me know. Same goes for you > Marlon. > > Regards, > Ben > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of George Rogato > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:31 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: >> Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of >> Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at >> PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. >> They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to >> carry FOUR tools up the ladder. >> >> Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People >> have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep >> screwing with. >> >> If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough >> things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange >> default username/password combos! > > BINGO, we found this out yesterday and hope that this is a temporary > thing. > > Hope fully Ben is reading this.. Not a good thing to change. > > George > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Yes, but All I want is a better radio. The Dream is... Wimax is interoperabilty certified to a standard. The Reality is... Who can get me a better radio sooner. (See previous Post) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:53 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for UL. I did not say in detail why (at least not in this post). For sure it is because the MAC was developed for licensed (LMDS actually) -- that's my point. It was never conceived of for UL. --- Also, there IS a WiMAX UL standard -- the profile has been in place for over a year. There just is not equipment and there has been no UL certification yet. http://www.wimaxforum.org/kshowcase/view The reason has nothing to do with Europe (Alvarion's Mariana Goldhamer led the harmonization between ETSI HiperMAN and IEEE 802.16 several years ago). The main vendors in the Forum (the ones that really drive things) all know the deal with UL and they are in no rush to deliver WiMAX in it's current form onto the U.S. market. Also, the existing UL WiMAX profile is for 802.16d-2004. The whole of the Forum is focusing on 802.16e-2005, in fact, the entire WiMAX "ecosystem" you hear about it all relative to 802.16e-2005. Migrations from .16d-2005 to .16e-2005 are not software type changes. All that combined with the non-UL MAC = "folks will be sorry" for sinking CAPEX into certain UL WiMAX. Buyer beware and know the deal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Can't argue with a manufacturer actually participating heavily in the WiMAX process. But I respectfully disagree here a bit. Fact is, it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. IMHO It ain't ready because licensed MMDS replacement was the original 802.16 plan. Thoughts of UL had been introduced fairly late in the game. Anyone that buys it before the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry. Anyone manufacturer who builds an UL solution which is WiMAX like pre-standard is no worse than with any other proprietary solution ... except that there is always hope of a firmware upgrade to standard at some future date if the hardware is WiMAX. I dunno ... I think the reason there is no UL WiMAX like standard is because Europe dropped the ball with HyperLAN2. It was standardized years ago by ETSI, it was UL 5GHz targetted (RLAN bands), but the involved carriers and manufacturers all nearly bankrupted themselves over 3G development & licensing. (Maybe, maybe not) For whatever reason it unraveled and IEEE 802.16 originally didn't had UL as a primary target (licensed MMDS replacement IIRC). Didn't any European manufacturer field any HyperLAN2 products (or prototypes) which could be trialed in US 5GHz UNII band? Sigh... Rich - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:41 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in UL bands. I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not have UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your head and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over 50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact is, it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it before the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry. I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?) Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >I think you'll g
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Patrick, I do not challenge Alvarion's top role in Licensed WiMax. I recognize it, as does most of the world. But the truth is... Some companies have publically announced that they plan to deliver a 5.8Ghz unlicensed product (as their primary focus), and others have announced that they are NOT planning to. Problems can be worked out, if they are worked on. If someone does not have a plan or desire to launch an unlicensed WiMax product, it is not likely that they will be working to fix unlicensed Wimax products. This world is full of smart people, and those that put their minds to it, will likely make more progress than those that do not. The plan that most manufacturers have, that plan to launch unlicensed Wimax, is to use WiMax chipsets, with their own proprietary MACs, so they can release better and working products sooner. After all, the bigger goal is just to deliver a better radio, and maybe even accomplish a possible upgrade path to True Wimax Firmware, if desired. How they will accomplish that, I feel is best left up to the clever radio designers, and I'll leave it at that for confidentiality courtesy. My prediction that Trango will be the first to launch an unlicened WiMax product is based on the fact that they have the most vested interest in launching one. They are currently without a next generation product, and they need its release. I'm not predicting it will initially be a certified compliant WiMax system. Trango currently has a quality MAC, and positiones Trango as a likely candidate to successfully pull off a custom WiMax chipset product. Alvarion on the other hand has very little benefit of launching an unlicensed Wimax product when it already has a strong VL product line and a strong licensed 802.16e product line. As far as your claim on the flawed UL Wimax standard I don't disagree. Every planned product in my mind is vapor, until it can be purchased, deployed, and tested by the operator. This again being the big reason that I personally am so fond of Alvarion VL products recently re-marketed to WISPs, as a solution that can be deployed today, without risk or chance of empty promises. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:41 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in UL bands. I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not have UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your head and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over 50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact is, it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it before the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry. I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?) Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is? Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon. But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Rich Comroe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than sensitivity. At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the 20mbps Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances. OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the 10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly higher C/Is). OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can operate with less signal than 20mbps Canopy. And as you already expressed, with 17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster. But you also neglect that with O
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Patrick, Pardon my ignorance...I'm not an RF guy...but what do you mean by the "problem of the .16 MAC in UL bands?" Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in UL bands. I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not have UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your head and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over 50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact is, it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it before the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry. I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?) Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is? Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon. But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Rich Comroe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than sensitivity. At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the 20mbps Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances. OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the 10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly higher C/Is). OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can operate with less signal than 20mbps Canopy. And as you already expressed, with 17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster. But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can tolerate partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold. Aside from the above, I perceive you seem to appreciate the value of time framed systems. I sometimes get wrong "who is advocating what" in email threads, so I appologize in advance if I've got this wrong. I'm a great fan of time framed systems myself. >It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system >would have performed? I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is? Rich ----- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon, You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge those definitions. However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to my comments. I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the reader would apply their knowledge of the definitions, to infer the relevance of comments made. To be more clear OFDM is plagued by a larger SNR to operate adequately, compared to DSSS. DSSS has been able to operate with minimum SNRs anywhere from 3db (canopy) to 8db (trango). Actually that comment is not exactly true, Canopy's C/I is 3db (not minimum SNR required). OFDM gear typically wants to see a minimum of 17db SNR, and performs optimally with > 25db SNR. I'm not aware that Wifi gear has worse C/I specs than non-Wifi gear, based on it being Wifi (csma/ca). Wifi or TDD has nothing to do with Noise, Wifi & TDD has to do with timing of transmissions. My point was that if you can't get over the noise, when using modulations less able to get over the noise, you can help solve the problem by transmitting when the noise is not occuring. Contant time based transmission has little benefit, if it occurs during a noisy time where that noise will kill the signal and results in packet loss. I'd rather have increased latency, and try again, to
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Rich, I said the spec (profile) for UL WiMAX IS done and has been for over a year. But the spec does not solve the 802.16 problem in UL and all the vendors know it, thus the creation of 802.16h (which we have not yet discussed in this thread) http://www.ieee802.org/16/le/ which we chair. UL WiMAX will be ready hopefully when this TG can work out a solution. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for UL I hear you. My disagreement is that a UL wisp standard SHOULD have been ready YEARS ago. HiperMAN is different than HiperLAN/2 (I incorrectly called it HyperLAN2 in the previous posts). You say the spec for UL WiMAX is not done yet. In a few days it'll be 2007. The spec for HiperLAN/2 was completed back in 2000 ... that's 7 years ago! 5 years ago there were prototype HiperLAN/2 products produced by Mitsubishi, NTT/Panasonic, Sharp, Sony, Stepmind, Theta and Thomson. Then ... something happened. 802.11a was shipping in the US, the 802.11h standard was adopted (adding DFS and TPC required for European acceptance), and the HiperLAN/2 coalition seemed to evaporate overnite. Apparently nobody considered the US UL wisp market as a viable candidate to sell the Hiperlan/2 products completed back in 2002, and I can't find any record of products ever being offered here. I can understand it, as it was driven by all large manufacturers anticipating the wireless LAN market volumes (which UL wisps can't come close to in collective volume). It's kind of funny that no wisp manufacturer offered any US HiperLAN/2 like products, while Motorola's Canopy was actually architecturally very similar to HiperLAN/2 (except for the non-OFDM layer1). Again, in a few days it'll be 2007 and they're still arguing over an UL WiMAX standard? Why not try the HiperLAN/2 standard completed long ago? Why? Because the standards participants are committed to licensed WiMAX manufacturing and are looking for a new UL standard with high commonality with licensed WiMAX / mobile WiMAX. It's a business decision to maximize return on their collective WiMAX chip investments. Unfortunately there's no UL wisp business coalition with sufficient standing to drive manufacturers for what "UL wisps" need ... (yet). Rich - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:53 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for UL. I did not say in detail why (at least not in this post). For sure it is because the MAC was developed for licensed (LMDS actually) -- that's my point. It was never conceived of for UL. --- Also, there IS a WiMAX UL standard -- the profile has been in place for over a year. There just is not equipment and there has been no UL certification yet. http://www.wimaxforum.org/kshowcase/view The reason has nothing to do with Europe (Alvarion's Mariana Goldhamer led the harmonization between ETSI HiperMAN and IEEE 802.16 several years ago). The main vendors in the Forum (the ones that really drive things) all know the deal with UL and they are in no rush to deliver WiMAX in it's current form onto the U.S. market. Also, the existing UL WiMAX profile is for 802.16d-2004. The whole of the Forum is focusing on 802.16e-2005, in fact, the entire WiMAX "ecosystem" you hear about it all relative to 802.16e-2005. Migrations from .16d-2005 to .16e-2005 are not software type changes. All that combined with the non-UL MAC = "folks will be sorry" for sinking CAPEX into certain UL WiMAX. Buyer beware and know the deal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Can't argue with a manufacturer actually participating heavily in the WiMAX process. But I respectfully disagree here a bit. >Fact is, >it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. IMHO It ain't ready because licensed MMDS replacement was the original 802.16 plan. Thoughts of UL had been introduced fairly late in the game. >Anyone that buys it before >the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry. Anyone manufacturer who builds an UL solution which is
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
>Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for UL I hear you. My disagreement is that a UL wisp standard SHOULD have been ready YEARS ago. HiperMAN is different than HiperLAN/2 (I incorrectly called it HyperLAN2 in the previous posts). You say the spec for UL WiMAX is not done yet. In a few days it'll be 2007. The spec for HiperLAN/2 was completed back in 2000 ... that's 7 years ago! 5 years ago there were prototype HiperLAN/2 products produced by Mitsubishi, NTT/Panasonic, Sharp, Sony, Stepmind, Theta and Thomson. Then ... something happened. 802.11a was shipping in the US, the 802.11h standard was adopted (adding DFS and TPC required for European acceptance), and the HiperLAN/2 coalition seemed to evaporate overnite. Apparently nobody considered the US UL wisp market as a viable candidate to sell the Hiperlan/2 products completed back in 2002, and I can't find any record of products ever being offered here. I can understand it, as it was driven by all large manufacturers anticipating the wireless LAN market volumes (which UL wisps can't come close to in collective volume). It's kind of funny that no wisp manufacturer offered any US HiperLAN/2 like products, while Motorola's Canopy was actually architecturally very similar to HiperLAN/2 (except for the non-OFDM layer1). Again, in a few days it'll be 2007 and they're still arguing over an UL WiMAX standard? Why not try the HiperLAN/2 standard completed long ago? Why? Because the standards participants are committed to licensed WiMAX manufacturing and are looking for a new UL standard with high commonality with licensed WiMAX / mobile WiMAX. It's a business decision to maximize return on their collective WiMAX chip investments. Unfortunately there's no UL wisp business coalition with sufficient standing to drive manufacturers for what "UL wisps" need ... (yet). Rich - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:53 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for UL. I did not say in detail why (at least not in this post). For sure it is because the MAC was developed for licensed (LMDS actually) -- that's my point. It was never conceived of for UL. --- Also, there IS a WiMAX UL standard -- the profile has been in place for over a year. There just is not equipment and there has been no UL certification yet. http://www.wimaxforum.org/kshowcase/view The reason has nothing to do with Europe (Alvarion's Mariana Goldhamer led the harmonization between ETSI HiperMAN and IEEE 802.16 several years ago). The main vendors in the Forum (the ones that really drive things) all know the deal with UL and they are in no rush to deliver WiMAX in it's current form onto the U.S. market. Also, the existing UL WiMAX profile is for 802.16d-2004. The whole of the Forum is focusing on 802.16e-2005, in fact, the entire WiMAX "ecosystem" you hear about it all relative to 802.16e-2005. Migrations from .16d-2005 to .16e-2005 are not software type changes. All that combined with the non-UL MAC = "folks will be sorry" for sinking CAPEX into certain UL WiMAX. Buyer beware and know the deal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Can't argue with a manufacturer actually participating heavily in the WiMAX process. But I respectfully disagree here a bit. >Fact is, >it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. IMHO It ain't ready because licensed MMDS replacement was the original 802.16 plan. Thoughts of UL had been introduced fairly late in the game. >Anyone that buys it before >the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry. Anyone manufacturer who builds an UL solution which is WiMAX like pre-standard is no worse than with any other proprietary solution ... except that there is always hope of a firmware upgrade to standard at some future date if the hardware is WiMAX. I dunno ... I think the reason there is no UL WiMAX like standard is because Europe dropped the ball with HyperLAN2. It was standardized years ago by ETSI, it was UL 5GHz targetted (RLAN bands), but the involved carriers and manufacturers all nearly bankrupted themselves over 3G development & licensing. (Maybe, maybe not) For whatever reason it unraveled and IEEE 802.16 originally didn't had UL as a primary target (licensed MMDS replacement II
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for UL. I did not say in detail why (at least not in this post). For sure it is because the MAC was developed for licensed (LMDS actually) -- that's my point. It was never conceived of for UL. --- Also, there IS a WiMAX UL standard -- the profile has been in place for over a year. There just is not equipment and there has been no UL certification yet. http://www.wimaxforum.org/kshowcase/view The reason has nothing to do with Europe (Alvarion's Mariana Goldhamer led the harmonization between ETSI HiperMAN and IEEE 802.16 several years ago). The main vendors in the Forum (the ones that really drive things) all know the deal with UL and they are in no rush to deliver WiMAX in it's current form onto the U.S. market. Also, the existing UL WiMAX profile is for 802.16d-2004. The whole of the Forum is focusing on 802.16e-2005, in fact, the entire WiMAX "ecosystem" you hear about it all relative to 802.16e-2005. Migrations from .16d-2005 to .16e-2005 are not software type changes. All that combined with the non-UL MAC = "folks will be sorry" for sinking CAPEX into certain UL WiMAX. Buyer beware and know the deal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Can't argue with a manufacturer actually participating heavily in the WiMAX process. But I respectfully disagree here a bit. >Fact is, >it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. IMHO It ain't ready because licensed MMDS replacement was the original 802.16 plan. Thoughts of UL had been introduced fairly late in the game. >Anyone that buys it before >the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry. Anyone manufacturer who builds an UL solution which is WiMAX like pre-standard is no worse than with any other proprietary solution ... except that there is always hope of a firmware upgrade to standard at some future date if the hardware is WiMAX. I dunno ... I think the reason there is no UL WiMAX like standard is because Europe dropped the ball with HyperLAN2. It was standardized years ago by ETSI, it was UL 5GHz targetted (RLAN bands), but the involved carriers and manufacturers all nearly bankrupted themselves over 3G development & licensing. (Maybe, maybe not) For whatever reason it unraveled and IEEE 802.16 originally didn't had UL as a primary target (licensed MMDS replacement IIRC). Didn't any European manufacturer field any HyperLAN2 products (or prototypes) which could be trialed in US 5GHz UNII band? Sigh... Rich - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:41 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in UL bands. I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not have UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your head and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over 50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact is, it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it before the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry. I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?) Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is? Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon. But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Rich Comroe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [W
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Can't argue with a manufacturer actually participating heavily in the WiMAX
process. But I respectfully disagree here a bit.
>Fact is,
>it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready.
IMHO It ain't ready because licensed MMDS replacement was the original 802.16
plan. Thoughts of UL had been introduced fairly late in the game.
>Anyone that buys it before
>the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.
Anyone manufacturer who builds an UL solution which is WiMAX like pre-standard
is no worse than with any other proprietary solution ... except that there is
always hope of a firmware upgrade to standard at some future date if the
hardware is WiMAX. I dunno ... I think the reason there is no UL WiMAX like
standard is because Europe dropped the ball with HyperLAN2. It was
standardized years ago by ETSI, it was UL 5GHz targetted (RLAN bands), but the
involved carriers and manufacturers all nearly bankrupted themselves over 3G
development & licensing. (Maybe, maybe not) For whatever reason it unraveled
and IEEE 802.16 originally didn't had UL as a primary target (licensed MMDS
replacement IIRC).
Didn't any European manufacturer field any HyperLAN2 products (or prototypes)
which could be trialed in US 5GHz UNII band? Sigh...
Rich
- Original Message -
From: Patrick Leary
To: WISPA General List
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times
and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the
myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has
lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in UL
bands.
I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not have
UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your head
and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially
INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been
selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over
50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You
have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have
introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact is,
it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it before
the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.
I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?)
Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
>I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is?
Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon.
But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
- Original Message -
From: "Rich Comroe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List"
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than
sensitivity. At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the
20mbps
Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances.
OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the
10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly
higher
C/Is). OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can
operate
with less signal than 20mbps Canopy. And as you already expressed, with
17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster.
But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can
tolerate
partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold.
Aside from the above, I perceive you seem to appreciate the value of
time
framed systems. I sometimes get wrong "who is advocating what" in email
threads, so I appologize in advance if I've got this wrong. I'm a great
fan
of time framed systems myself.
>It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system
>would have performed?
I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is?
Rich
- Original Message -
From: Tom DeReggi
To: WISPA General List
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Marlon,
You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge
those
definitions.
However
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in UL bands. I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not have UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your head and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over 50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact is, it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it before the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry. I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?) Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is? Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon. But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Rich Comroe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than sensitivity. At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the 20mbps Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances. OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the 10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly higher C/Is). OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can operate with less signal than 20mbps Canopy. And as you already expressed, with 17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster. But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can tolerate partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold. Aside from the above, I perceive you seem to appreciate the value of time framed systems. I sometimes get wrong "who is advocating what" in email threads, so I appologize in advance if I've got this wrong. I'm a great fan of time framed systems myself. >It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system >would have performed? I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is? Rich - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon, You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge those definitions. However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to my comments. I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the reader would apply their knowledge of the definitions, to infer the relevance of comments made. To be more clear OFDM is plagued by a larger SNR to operate adequately, compared to DSSS. DSSS has been able to operate with minimum SNRs anywhere from 3db (canopy) to 8db (trango). Actually that comment is not exactly true, Canopy's C/I is 3db (not minimum SNR required). OFDM gear typically wants to see a minimum of 17db SNR, and performs optimally with > 25db SNR. I'm not aware that Wifi gear has worse C/I specs than non-Wifi gear, based on it being Wifi (csma/ca). Wifi or TDD has nothing to do with Noise, Wifi & TDD has to do with timing of transmissions. My point was that if you can't get over the noise, when using modulations less able to get over the noise, you can help solve the problem by transmitting when the noise is not occuring. Contant time based transmission has little benefit, if it occurs during a noisy time where that noise will kill the signal and results in packet loss. I'd rather have increased latency, and try again, to prevent packet loss. >> I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be >> able to survive the noise, with better SNRs Meant... DSSS gets over noise better than OFDM, and I like TDD gear when the gear can survive the noise floor, and DSSS gear is more likely to survive the noise floor, and well matched with TDD.
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference- Part 1
Alvarion's got actual WiMAX gear Rich. Our WiMAX-certified BreezeMAX 3500 is being deployed in over 100 commercial networks along with about 120 trials. In the U.S. we are selling and deploying early BreezeMAX 2500 and BreezeMAX 2300 to a handful of operators. These are TDD 802.16e-ready solutions and they will be certified when the WiMAX Forum opens up .16e certification testing. Some call BreezeACCESS pre-WiMAX, but that is only true to the extent that it uses OFDM and has a host of other features that some might call "WiMAX-like." I am personally not fond of pre/like/kinda, etc. UNLESS the system is real WiMAX and just awaits the certification process, such as is the case with BreezeMAX 2300 and BreezeMAX 2500. BreezeMAX 3500 is already certified. Anything called "BreezeMAX" was designed from the ground up to support WiMAX profiles and will ultimately be WiMAX-certified. Anything in our line NOT called BreezeMAX will not ever be WiMAX-certified. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 5:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference- Part 1 Again, I think they're already being made, aren't they? for 3.5GHz. Doesn't have to be final WiMAX ... I presume that all the pre-WiMAX products are OFDM and TDD. I've yet to hear of one at 900, 2.4, or 5. Anyone? Am I all wet on what the pre-WiMAX products are? I could very well be all wet, as I am only talking from what I've picked up from reading here ... and I've not had any first-hand experience with real available pre-WiMAX gear that's out there. Alvarion's got pre-WiMAX gear ... maybe Patrick can confirm, or alternatively slap me back to reality! :-) Rich - Original Message - From: Brad Belton To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:16 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference - Part 1 lol...gotta love it! I'd argue it doesn't have to be only $300 to sell. I'd pay two or three times that for such a product. But honestly that isn't that much to ask as many products are already so close...Alvarion VL being one of the closest, but still no cigar. I like what you said about developing Trango products and agree they are way past due to "leapfrog" back to the front of the pack. Oh those were the days when Sunstream/Trango was the undisputed leader with the début of the M5800 and then the M5830.Maybe they can do it again! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived -regardinginterference - Part 1 Charles, WOW! Great Post! That covers about everything. It increases the understanding of the complexity, but it doesn't answer the ultimate question, "What to use". What we really want is an efficient OFDM system, with a strong TDD w/ARQ MAC, RFThreshold, Good Noise Filtering, Packet aggregating/compressing, adeqaute CPU processing, Quality narrow beam diversity antennas, all pre-packaged in a system/box under $300. But that product does not exist today. So why doesn't a manufacturer just make it, so we can stop debating what is best, and just deploy radios! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regardinginterference - Part 1 I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has gone...wow So, my 2 cents... One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a system's interference robustness. However, before we can get into further detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc -- it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone. Heck, all radios in the market have some sort of "interference robustness / avoidance capability" -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle. Read on...I'll talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part 2 =) WHAT IS INTERERENCE? In the wireless world, interferen
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is? Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon. But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Rich Comroe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than sensitivity. At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the 20mbps Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances. OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the 10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly higher C/Is). OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can operate with less signal than 20mbps Canopy. And as you already expressed, with 17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster. But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can tolerate partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold. Aside from the above, I perceive you seem to appreciate the value of time framed systems. I sometimes get wrong "who is advocating what" in email threads, so I appologize in advance if I've got this wrong. I'm a great fan of time framed systems myself. It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system would have performed? I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is? Rich - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon, You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge those definitions. However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to my comments. I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the reader would apply their knowledge of the definitions, to infer the relevance of comments made. To be more clear OFDM is plagued by a larger SNR to operate adequately, compared to DSSS. DSSS has been able to operate with minimum SNRs anywhere from 3db (canopy) to 8db (trango). Actually that comment is not exactly true, Canopy's C/I is 3db (not minimum SNR required). OFDM gear typically wants to see a minimum of 17db SNR, and performs optimally with > 25db SNR. I'm not aware that Wifi gear has worse C/I specs than non-Wifi gear, based on it being Wifi (csma/ca). Wifi or TDD has nothing to do with Noise, Wifi & TDD has to do with timing of transmissions. My point was that if you can't get over the noise, when using modulations less able to get over the noise, you can help solve the problem by transmitting when the noise is not occuring. Contant time based transmission has little benefit, if it occurs during a noisy time where that noise will kill the signal and results in packet loss. I'd rather have increased latency, and try again, to prevent packet loss. >> I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be >> able to survive the noise, with better SNRs Meant... DSSS gets over noise better than OFDM, and I like TDD gear when the gear can survive the noise floor, and DSSS gear is more likely to survive the noise floor, and well matched with TDD. If using OFDM, requiring larger SNR, harder to accomplish in high noise environements, a non-TDD based scheduling MAC such as CSMA/CA can improve overall end to end performance and reduce packet loss. A lost packet, end to end across a session, takes up WAY more bandwdith and has a penalty of WAY more LAtency, than hiding the packet loss from the session, and re-transmitting the loss at the specific link that the packet loss occured. The point I am making is that so many people judge performance by Link performance, which means nothing in terms of the performance that the end user experiences end to end. End USer Performance is about preventing and minimizing packet loss. A perfect exmaple was a link that I had to rebuild today. I tried to pull off a ofdm 900 Mhz link. I have a registered noise floor of -85, and an average signal of -55, but I had to pull out the link, because end to end, the best I could accomplish was 5-10% packet loss. The reason is that sporatic paging noise peaked loud enough to interfere with my signal (although not seen with cheap limited wifi built-in noise detection). I was able to do a radio to radio throughout test of almost 10 mbps. But thats not what the end user saw, trying to type in his remote office application. More like 30 seconds to see his characters show up on the screen after he typed them. But web browsing appeared OK. This particular case it
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference - Part 1
It was a lot more fun back then, being on the Trango side. When "Sunstream/Trango was the undisputed leader", it was easy to win a debate. Its not so easy and clear anymore. Every player is a winner and a loser from some perspective. Maybe they can do it again! I don't doubt that they can do it again. They are my first pick predicted to deliver the first true 5.8G WiMax class product usable in the US at the right price point for WISPs. The question is whether, they'll do it again soon enough. First half of 2007, can mean a lot of things. By Summer, I could have half my network/revenue converted to Alvarion, and be to late to change course. But then again, first half of 2007 could mean February, which could be a different situation. The only downside I saw in the new planned Trango product was it was limited to 10Mhz channels. I liked the options for 10Mhz, but I didn't like it mandatory. 10Mhz requirement most likely would result in replacing existing gear with gear that delivered near the same capacity after all considered. So where it would be the best choice for new sectors, it would not necessarilly justify change of sector. My contracts are per antenna, not per spectrum channel. I'm now going back trying to renegotiate my agreements to handle more antennas for the same price, but thats not easy to do. The idea was to pay top dollar upfront, and make my money when I put high speed gear and more customers on net, WITHOUT increasing my colocation fees. If my colocation fees increase, to add more antennas, I don't become more profitable by deploying the gear. Its simple math. But then again, if I can successfully renogiate my leases, it could be a blessing, allowing me to build in redundant sectors, a legacy Trango feature and design to our network that I was never able to take advantage of due to lack of spectrum. But truthfully, the real winner is going to be the manufactuer that delivers legal compliant 5.4Ghz.into their platform. It will be nice to have virgin spectrum again like 5 years ago. (even if limited to 1 watt). 5.4Ghz is where staying 20Mhz is a logical choice. Its going to be hard to get that 25db SNR with 1 watt radios, but the idea would be use all the short range links with 5.4, and all the long range links with 5.8. If I had to start using a whole new platform (not downword compatible), paying for duplicate antennas, why not do it with 5.4G under that model, and maximize the use of all available resourses? It would make a more logical migration plan. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:16 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference - Part 1 lol...gotta love it! I'd argue it doesn't have to be only $300 to sell. I'd pay two or three times that for such a product. But honestly that isn't that much to ask as many products are already so close...Alvarion VL being one of the closest, but still no cigar. I like what you said about developing Trango products and agree they are way past due to "leapfrog" back to the front of the pack. Oh those were the days when Sunstream/Trango was the undisputed leader with the début of the M5800 and then the M5830.Maybe they can do it again! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived -regardinginterference - Part 1 Charles, WOW! Great Post! That covers about everything. It increases the understanding of the complexity, but it doesn't answer the ultimate question, "What to use". What we really want is an efficient OFDM system, with a strong TDD w/ARQ MAC, RFThreshold, Good Noise Filtering, Packet aggregating/compressing, adeqaute CPU processing, Quality narrow beam diversity antennas, all pre-packaged in a system/box under $300. But that product does not exist today. So why doesn't a manufacturer just make it, so we can stop debating what is best, and just deploy radios! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message ----- From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regardinginterference - Part 1 I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has gone...wow So, my 2 cents... One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a system's interference robustness. However, before we can get into fur
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference - Part 1
Again, I think they're already being made, aren't they? for 3.5GHz. Doesn't have to be final WiMAX ... I presume that all the pre-WiMAX products are OFDM and TDD. I've yet to hear of one at 900, 2.4, or 5. Anyone? Am I all wet on what the pre-WiMAX products are? I could very well be all wet, as I am only talking from what I've picked up from reading here ... and I've not had any first-hand experience with real available pre-WiMAX gear that's out there. Alvarion's got pre-WiMAX gear ... maybe Patrick can confirm, or alternatively slap me back to reality! :-) Rich - Original Message - From: Brad Belton To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:16 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference - Part 1 lol...gotta love it! I'd argue it doesn't have to be only $300 to sell. I'd pay two or three times that for such a product. But honestly that isn't that much to ask as many products are already so close...Alvarion VL being one of the closest, but still no cigar. I like what you said about developing Trango products and agree they are way past due to "leapfrog" back to the front of the pack. Oh those were the days when Sunstream/Trango was the undisputed leader with the début of the M5800 and then the M5830.Maybe they can do it again! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived -regardinginterference - Part 1 Charles, WOW! Great Post! That covers about everything. It increases the understanding of the complexity, but it doesn't answer the ultimate question, "What to use". What we really want is an efficient OFDM system, with a strong TDD w/ARQ MAC, RFThreshold, Good Noise Filtering, Packet aggregating/compressing, adeqaute CPU processing, Quality narrow beam diversity antennas, all pre-packaged in a system/box under $300. But that product does not exist today. So why doesn't a manufacturer just make it, so we can stop debating what is best, and just deploy radios! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regardinginterference - Part 1 I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has gone...wow So, my 2 cents... One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a system's interference robustness. However, before we can get into further detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc -- it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone. Heck, all radios in the market have some sort of "interference robustness / avoidance capability" -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle. Read on...I'll talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part 2 =) WHAT IS INTERERENCE? In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands - i.e. they mutually "interfere," disrupt or add to the overall noise level in the intended transmission. Interference can be divided into two forms, based on whether it comes from your own network(s) or from an outside source. If the interfering RF signals emanate from a network under your control, whether it is on the same tower or several miles away, it is termed "self-interference." If the opposing signals come from a network, device or other source that is not under your control, it is termed "outside interference." Thus, the definition of what type of interference is being combated is not based on technology, but ownership. In licensed bands, where spectrum is relatively scarce (due to high costs) self-interference alone must be taken into account; however given a more or less known operating environment (the radio spectrum will only have signals transmitting that are under control by a single entity) proper product design and network deployment can reduce these interferes to a level where they do not impact network performance. Self-interference is not a phenomenon that is confined to licensed band operations; license-exempt bands must address the same issues.
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than sensitivity. At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the 20mbps Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances. OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the 10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly higher C/Is). OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can operate with less signal than 20mbps Canopy. And as you already expressed, with 17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster. But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can tolerate partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold. Aside from the above, I perceive you seem to appreciate the value of time framed systems. I sometimes get wrong "who is advocating what" in email threads, so I appologize in advance if I've got this wrong. I'm a great fan of time framed systems myself. >It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system >would have performed? I think you'll get your wish. Isn't this what WiMAX is? Rich - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon, You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge those definitions. However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to my comments. I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the reader would apply their knowledge of the definitions, to infer the relevance of comments made. To be more clear OFDM is plagued by a larger SNR to operate adequately, compared to DSSS. DSSS has been able to operate with minimum SNRs anywhere from 3db (canopy) to 8db (trango). Actually that comment is not exactly true, Canopy's C/I is 3db (not minimum SNR required). OFDM gear typically wants to see a minimum of 17db SNR, and performs optimally with > 25db SNR. I'm not aware that Wifi gear has worse C/I specs than non-Wifi gear, based on it being Wifi (csma/ca). Wifi or TDD has nothing to do with Noise, Wifi & TDD has to do with timing of transmissions. My point was that if you can't get over the noise, when using modulations less able to get over the noise, you can help solve the problem by transmitting when the noise is not occuring. Contant time based transmission has little benefit, if it occurs during a noisy time where that noise will kill the signal and results in packet loss. I'd rather have increased latency, and try again, to prevent packet loss. >> I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be >> able to survive the noise, with better SNRs Meant... DSSS gets over noise better than OFDM, and I like TDD gear when the gear can survive the noise floor, and DSSS gear is more likely to survive the noise floor, and well matched with TDD. If using OFDM, requiring larger SNR, harder to accomplish in high noise environements, a non-TDD based scheduling MAC such as CSMA/CA can improve overall end to end performance and reduce packet loss. A lost packet, end to end across a session, takes up WAY more bandwdith and has a penalty of WAY more LAtency, than hiding the packet loss from the session, and re-transmitting the loss at the specific link that the packet loss occured. The point I am making is that so many people judge performance by Link performance, which means nothing in terms of the performance that the end user experiences end to end. End USer Performance is about preventing and minimizing packet loss. A perfect exmaple was a link that I had to rebuild today. I tried to pull off a ofdm 900 Mhz link. I have a registered noise floor of -85, and an average signal of -55, but I had to pull out the link, because end to end, the best I could accomplish was 5-10% packet loss. The reason is that sporatic paging noise peaked loud enough to interfere with my signal (although not seen with cheap limited wifi built-in noise detection). I was able to do a radio to radio throughout test of almost 10 mbps. But thats not what the end user saw, trying to type in his remote office application. More like 30 seconds to see his characters show up on the screen after he typed them. But web browsing appeared OK. This particular case it demonstrates the harm of packet loss, allthough limited in relevance as it was a OFDM CSMA/CA link. Trango 900 DSSS w/ nosie compression built-in and ARQ, would have likely solved the problem. But thats because of DSSS's noise resilience, Trango compression (noise filtering) and ARQ, not because of its TDD spec. It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system would have pe
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regardinginterference - Part 1
Good stuff. In the order presented, the text makes some statements about RX threshold damping. It is a powerful tool for a higher modulation radio operating in a noisy environment, as it allows the radio to block out and ignore signals received below the preset RF Rx Threshold. By creating an artificial receiver threshold below which no RF signals are processed, the Receiver Threshold Dampening allows for the rejection of distance interferences and reduces co-location interference at the expense of a reduced coverage radius. The text above immediately follows the excellent section on C/I. Presenting in this order I felt the text might somehow imply that by setting the threshold higher than the interfering signals, that the receiver can ignore the interference (it says this in so many words). If we're talking about the Carrier-to-Interference required above the surrounding interference it's giving you the wrong impression. That would be incorrect, and since it immediately followed the section on C/I I thought I could improve a bit here. You still need every inch of the required C/I above the interference. All that is being ignored is the receiver's energy detection (and whatever impact it may cause in the MAC's channel access algorithm) from reacting to receive energy below the threshold. The interference energy is still there, and additive with desired received signal. Another way of looking at this is that you need the same margin above the receiver noise threshold as you need above the interference (you still need both SNR and C/I). In my book this is not interference rejection at all. You need the same amount of required SNR above sensitivity and C/I above interference, but the technique can be useful in masking far-away weaker signals from screwing up your channel access if you were using something like CSMA. Rich - Original Message - From: Charles Wu To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:47 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regardinginterference - Part 1 I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has gone...wow So, my 2 cents... One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a system's interference robustness. However, before we can get into further detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc -- it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone. Heck, all radios in the market have some sort of "interference robustness / avoidance capability" -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle. Read on...I'll talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part 2 =) WHAT IS INTERERENCE? In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands - i.e. they mutually "interfere," disrupt or add to the overall noise level in the intended transmission. Interference can be divided into two forms, based on whether it comes from your own network(s) or from an outside source. If the interfering RF signals emanate from a network under your control, whether it is on the same tower or several miles away, it is termed "self-interference." If the opposing signals come from a network, device or other source that is not under your control, it is termed "outside interference." Thus, the definition of what type of interference is being combated is not based on technology, but ownership. In licensed bands, where spectrum is relatively scarce (due to high costs) self-interference alone must be taken into account; however given a more or less known operating environment (the radio spectrum will only have signals transmitting that are under control by a single entity) proper product design and network deployment can reduce these interferes to a level where they do not impact network performance. Self-interference is not a phenomenon that is confined to licensed band operations; license-exempt bands must address the same issues. The techniques and design elements of a given product that serve to reduce and tame self-interference in licensed band operations can be applied directly to license-exempt systems. THE LICENSE-EXEMPT CHALLENGE OF INTERFERENCE In the license-exempt bands, not only must self-interference be accounted for, but, given the nature of the regulations governing these bands, external interference must be designed for as well. This can be extremely challenging, as there is no way of knowing in advance where these outside signals may be or will be sourced from, or even how strong the i
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived -regardinginterference - Part 1
lol...gotta love it! I'd argue it doesn't have to be only $300 to sell. I'd pay two or three times that for such a product. But honestly that isn't that much to ask as many products are already so close...Alvarion VL being one of the closest, but still no cigar. I like what you said about developing Trango products and agree they are way past due to "leapfrog" back to the front of the pack. Oh those were the days when Sunstream/Trango was the undisputed leader with the début of the M5800 and then the M5830.Maybe they can do it again! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived -regardinginterference - Part 1 Charles, WOW! Great Post! That covers about everything. It increases the understanding of the complexity, but it doesn't answer the ultimate question, "What to use". What we really want is an efficient OFDM system, with a strong TDD w/ARQ MAC, RFThreshold, Good Noise Filtering, Packet aggregating/compressing, adeqaute CPU processing, Quality narrow beam diversity antennas, all pre-packaged in a system/box under $300. But that product does not exist today. So why doesn't a manufacturer just make it, so we can stop debating what is best, and just deploy radios! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regardinginterference - Part 1 I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has gone...wow So, my 2 cents... One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a system's interference robustness. However, before we can get into further detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc -- it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone. Heck, all radios in the market have some sort of "interference robustness / avoidance capability" -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle. Read on...I'll talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part 2 =) WHAT IS INTERERENCE? In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands - i.e. they mutually "interfere," disrupt or add to the overall noise level in the intended transmission. Interference can be divided into two forms, based on whether it comes from your own network(s) or from an outside source. If the interfering RF signals emanate from a network under your control, whether it is on the same tower or several miles away, it is termed "self-interference." If the opposing signals come from a network, device or other source that is not under your control, it is termed "outside interference." Thus, the definition of what type of interference is being combated is not based on technology, but ownership. In licensed bands, where spectrum is relatively scarce (due to high costs) self-interference alone must be taken into account; however given a more or less known operating environment (the radio spectrum will only have signals transmitting that are under control by a single entity) proper product design and network deployment can reduce these interferes to a level where they do not impact network performance. Self-interference is not a phenomenon that is confined to licensed band operations; license-exempt bands must address the same issues. The techniques and design elements of a given product that serve to reduce and tame self-interference in licensed band operations can be applied directly to license-exempt systems. THE LICENSE-EXEMPT CHALLENGE OF INTERFERENCE In the license-exempt bands, not only must self-interference be accounted for, but, given the nature of the regulations governing these bands, external interference must be designed for as well. This can be extremely challenging, as there is no way of knowing in advance where these outside signals may be or will be sourced from, or even how strong the interfering transmissions will be relative to the desired transmission. This aspect of the license-exempt bands represents the possible "downside" of license-exempt network operation. Yet as potentially damaging and unpredictable as external interference can be in license-exempt networks, a properly designed and implemented broadband wireless system can make a significant difference in the performa
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regardinginterference - Part 1
Charles, WOW! Great Post! That covers about everything. It increases the understanding of the complexity, but it doesn't answer the ultimate question, "What to use". What we really want is an efficient OFDM system, with a strong TDD w/ARQ MAC, RFThreshold, Good Noise Filtering, Packet aggregating/compressing, adeqaute CPU processing, Quality narrow beam diversity antennas, all pre-packaged in a system/box under $300. But that product does not exist today. So why doesn't a manufacturer just make it, so we can stop debating what is best, and just deploy radios! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:47 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regardinginterference - Part 1 I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has gone...wow So, my 2 cents... One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a system's interference robustness. However, before we can get into further detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc -- it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone. Heck, all radios in the market have some sort of "interference robustness / avoidance capability" -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle. Read on...I'll talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part 2 =) WHAT IS INTERERENCE? In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands - i.e. they mutually "interfere," disrupt or add to the overall noise level in the intended transmission. Interference can be divided into two forms, based on whether it comes from your own network(s) or from an outside source. If the interfering RF signals emanate from a network under your control, whether it is on the same tower or several miles away, it is termed "self-interference." If the opposing signals come from a network, device or other source that is not under your control, it is termed "outside interference." Thus, the definition of what type of interference is being combated is not based on technology, but ownership. In licensed bands, where spectrum is relatively scarce (due to high costs) self-interference alone must be taken into account; however given a more or less known operating environment (the radio spectrum will only have signals transmitting that are under control by a single entity) proper product design and network deployment can reduce these interferes to a level where they do not impact network performance. Self-interference is not a phenomenon that is confined to licensed band operations; license-exempt bands must address the same issues. The techniques and design elements of a given product that serve to reduce and tame self-interference in licensed band operations can be applied directly to license-exempt systems. THE LICENSE-EXEMPT CHALLENGE OF INTERFERENCE In the license-exempt bands, not only must self-interference be accounted for, but, given the nature of the regulations governing these bands, external interference must be designed for as well. This can be extremely challenging, as there is no way of knowing in advance where these outside signals may be or will be sourced from, or even how strong the interfering transmissions will be relative to the desired transmission. This aspect of the license-exempt bands represents the possible "downside" of license-exempt network operation. Yet as potentially damaging and unpredictable as external interference can be in license-exempt networks, a properly designed and implemented broadband wireless system can make a significant difference in the performance of a network under siege from unwanted external radio transmissions. DEALING WITH COCHANNEL INTERFERENCE: PHY LAYER 1. Modulation & the C/I Ratio At the most fundamental level, an interfering RF source disrupts the digital transmission by making it too difficult for the receiving station to "decode" the signal. How much noise or interference a digital RF transmission can tolerate depends on the modulation used. Fundamentally, modulation is the method whereby zeros and ones are communicated by varying one of three aspects of radio signal. The three portions of an RF signal that can be changed or modulated are phase, frequency and amplitude. Shirting the properties of any of these parameters can be used to communicate different "states." These states, in turn, are translated to zeros and ones for binary
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Marlon, I will add... I made one error I said if interference was from other "OFDM". I meant to say, if interference was from other "CSMA/CA". CSMA/CA is better apt to survive interference from other CSMA/CA gear, than TDD is. In other words, retransmitting is likely going to find free spectrum, since CSMA/CA does not always transmit. If interference is from a TDD device, CSMA/CA ability to retransmit is likely going to just re-get interference. I recognize, TDD w/ARQ, has best features from both worlds, which I've been a strong advocate of. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived oh oh. This one's gonna be fun. I'll warn ya now Tom, this is nothing personal. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived marlon, I have to disagree, and state the opposite. I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be able to survive the noise, with better SNRs. OK, there's a problem here. Lets make sure we're talking the same acronyms and such. TDD = Time Division Duplex. In our case, this part really doesn't mean much of anything. DSSS = Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum, SNR = Signal to Noise Ratio. This is the one that you fine tune on a CB radio to get the his to go away. For these and many more kindly take advantage of work I did years ago: http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/definitions.htm The problem occurs when DSSS is not enough to get above the noise. This is a problem when using DSSS, FHSS, OFDM, FM or any other modulation scheme we're using today. When the noise is other OFDM OFDM is NOT DSSS or FHSS. It's Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing. "I totally don't know what that is but I want it!" roflol or Wifi contention gear, WiFi is an interoperability standard based on IEEE standards. Today WiFi can be either DSSS or OFDM, I'm not aware of any WiFi FHSS product. 802.11b is DSS, 802.11a and g are OFDM. possibly louder than your own signal, using CSMA/CA actually performs much better in the severe interference environments. Define better. No, I'm not trying to pull a Clinton here. If you want to compare DSS to FHSS then, yes in certain types of noisy conditions, DSS can overcome the noise by spreading it's data packets over a larger area. It's able to rebuild damaged data packets or to just ignore some times of noise that would cause an FHSS signal to back off and retransmit on a different freqency, causing a rise in latency and a drop in speed. A DSSS signal spreads the data over (in the WiFi example you site) 22 MHz of spectrum. An FHSS signal spreads that same data over 1 MHz, but it hops around interference. I remember seeing a couple of graphs years ago. They showed an ever increasing noise level and it's impact on DSSS and FHSS. The DSSS stayed at or near full speed longer than the FHSS but once the noise got too high it totally dropped off line. The FHSS system, on the other hand, showed the noise as an overall slowdown but kept on going long after that DSSS system rolled over and wet on it's self. I'm hearing mixed results about OFDM. Some say it works better yet in interference, some say it dies much sooner. I really don't know. It would be nice to see someone run all three systems in a lab so we could see the same tests. In fact it would be fun to see that same test with several proprietary systems too. If only I had more time and money! That's exactly the kind of tinkering that I live for! The reason is TDD is guaranteed to transmit during the noisy period, some percentage of time. Nope. Not true at all. Been there, done that. I have more than one T-shirt. It TOTALLY depends on the type of noise and it's levels in relation to your carrier to interference ratios (also known as SNR). If you have narrow band interference DSSS can (and OFDM should) work around it. It'll be able to recreate the missing data bits and deliver a good data packet. Or, if the noise is far enough off of the center frequency (the middle part of the 22 MHz wide channel) it'll likely just completely
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Marlon, You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge those definitions. However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to my comments. I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the reader would apply their knowledge of the definitions, to infer the relevance of comments made. To be more clear OFDM is plagued by a larger SNR to operate adequately, compared to DSSS. DSSS has been able to operate with minimum SNRs anywhere from 3db (canopy) to 8db (trango). Actually that comment is not exactly true, Canopy's C/I is 3db (not minimum SNR required). OFDM gear typically wants to see a minimum of 17db SNR, and performs optimally with > 25db SNR. I'm not aware that Wifi gear has worse C/I specs than non-Wifi gear, based on it being Wifi (csma/ca). Wifi or TDD has nothing to do with Noise, Wifi & TDD has to do with timing of transmissions. My point was that if you can't get over the noise, when using modulations less able to get over the noise, you can help solve the problem by transmitting when the noise is not occuring. Contant time based transmission has little benefit, if it occurs during a noisy time where that noise will kill the signal and results in packet loss. I'd rather have increased latency, and try again, to prevent packet loss. I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be able to survive the noise, with better SNRs Meant... DSSS gets over noise better than OFDM, and I like TDD gear when the gear can survive the noise floor, and DSSS gear is more likely to survive the noise floor, and well matched with TDD. If using OFDM, requiring larger SNR, harder to accomplish in high noise environements, a non-TDD based scheduling MAC such as CSMA/CA can improve overall end to end performance and reduce packet loss. A lost packet, end to end across a session, takes up WAY more bandwdith and has a penalty of WAY more LAtency, than hiding the packet loss from the session, and re-transmitting the loss at the specific link that the packet loss occured. The point I am making is that so many people judge performance by Link performance, which means nothing in terms of the performance that the end user experiences end to end. End USer Performance is about preventing and minimizing packet loss. A perfect exmaple was a link that I had to rebuild today. I tried to pull off a ofdm 900 Mhz link. I have a registered noise floor of -85, and an average signal of -55, but I had to pull out the link, because end to end, the best I could accomplish was 5-10% packet loss. The reason is that sporatic paging noise peaked loud enough to interfere with my signal (although not seen with cheap limited wifi built-in noise detection). I was able to do a radio to radio throughout test of almost 10 mbps. But thats not what the end user saw, trying to type in his remote office application. More like 30 seconds to see his characters show up on the screen after he typed them. But web browsing appeared OK. This particular case it demonstrates the harm of packet loss, allthough limited in relevance as it was a OFDM CSMA/CA link. Trango 900 DSSS w/ nosie compression built-in and ARQ, would have likely solved the problem. But thats because of DSSS's noise resilience, Trango compression (noise filtering) and ARQ, not because of its TDD spec. It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system would have performed? I can test it, because one doesn't exist, atleast not that I own. But I bet it would perform pretty poorly. I believe the CSMA/CA was the saving grace that allowed the link to be tolerable at all (web browsing), with the random packet loss. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived oh oh. This one's gonna be fun. I'll warn ya now Tom, this is nothing personal. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived marlon, I have to disagree, and state the opposite. I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be able to survive the noise, with better SNRs. OK, there's a problem here. Lets make sure we're talking the same
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regarding interference - Part 1
I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has gone...wow So, my 2 cents... One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a system's interference robustness. However, before we can get into further detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc -- it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone. Heck, all radios in the market have some sort of "interference robustness / avoidance capability" -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle. Read on...I'll talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part 2 =) WHAT IS INTERERENCE? In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands i.e. they mutually interfere, disrupt or add to the overall noise level in the intended transmission. Interference can be divided into two forms, based on whether it comes from your own network(s) or from an outside source. If the interfering RF signals emanate from a network under your control, whether it is on the same tower or several miles away, it is termed self-interference. If the opposing signals come from a network, device or other source that is not under your control, it is termed outside interference. Thus, the definition of what type of interference is being combated is not based on technology, but ownership. In licensed bands, where spectrum is relatively scarce (due to high costs) self-interference alone must be taken into account; however given a more or less known operating environment (the radio spectrum will only have signals transmitting that are under control by a single entity) proper product design and network deployment can reduce these interferes to a level where they do not impact network performance. Self-interference is not a phenomenon that is confined to licensed band operations; license-exempt bands must address the same issues. The techniques and design elements of a given product that serve to reduce and tame self-interference in licensed band operations can be applied directly to license-exempt systems. THE LICENSE-EXEMPT CHALLENGE OF INTERFERENCE In the license-exempt bands, not only must self-interference be accounted for, but, given the nature of the regulations governing these bands, external interference must be designed for as well. This can be extremely challenging, as there is no way of knowing in advance where these outside signals may be or will be sourced from, or even how strong the interfering transmissions will be relative to the desired transmission. This aspect of the license-exempt bands represents the possible downside of license-exempt network operation. Yet as potentially damaging and unpredictable as external interference can be in license-exempt networks, a properly designed and implemented broadband wireless system can make a significant difference in the performance of a network under siege from unwanted external radio transmissions. DEALING WITH COCHANNEL INTERFERENCE: PHY LAYER 1. Modulation & the C/I Ratio At the most fundamental level, an interfering RF source disrupts the digital transmission by making it too difficult for the receiving station to decode the signal. How much noise or interference a digital RF transmission can tolerate depends on the modulation used. Fundamentally, modulation is the method whereby zeros and ones are communicated by varying one of three aspects of radio signal. The three portions of an RF signal that can be changed or modulated are phase, frequency and amplitude. Shirting the properties of any of these parameters can be used to communicate different states. These states, in turn, are translated to zeros and ones for binary communications. For example, with frequency modulation, if the sine wave is at frequency one, it is decoded as a zero. If the sine wave is shifted slightly to frequency two, this is decoded as a one. This type of modulation is referred to as Binary Frequency Shift Keying (BFSK). In this example, a system must only be able to tell the difference between one of two states or phases. More complex modulations, such as 16 QAM (Quadrature Amplitude Modulation), attempt to differentiate among 16 different possible states of an incoming signal. The advantage to higher order modulation schemes, like 16QAM, is that compared to BPSK, 16QAM conveys more information per bandwidth (more bits/Hz). The disadvantage of 16QAM lies in the fact that, in order to distinguish among the 16 different states, the signal must be very clean and very strong relative to background noise and/or interference. The ability of a receiving station to decode an incoming signal at the most basic physical layer is dependent on a factor called the carrier to i
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Thanks for the offer Ben. But we'll have all of these units out in the field long before you can get a box of nuts to me! If it REALLY bothers me, I'll just run down to the local hardware store and buy my own nuts. grin It's MUCH more fun to pick on you guys once in a while though. evil grin Say, I have a question for you. When and why did you move from the welded to the stamped base plates for the Sat. arms? I'd guess that they are a bit cheaper to make, but the material seems thinner. Are they as strong? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Marketing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived George, We are definitely listening. This will be changed going forward. If you need some additional flange nuts (7/16), let me know. Same goes for you Marlon. Regards, Ben -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to carry FOUR tools up the ladder. Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing with. If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange default username/password combos! BINGO, we found this out yesterday and hope that this is a temporary thing. Hope fully Ben is reading this.. Not a good thing to change. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
There is some truth to Brad's point. With Trango, we knew exactly how much bandwidth would be available, and it met the requirement for business grade CIR. If we didn't get that, then it was a broke link needing repair, which was likely to be accomplishable. The problem is our business model was limited to 10 mbps. What do you do when you scale past that? When we use Alvarion, we don't design using it for 30mbps of CIR capacity in mind. It can't deliver that. But it very well may deliver 24 mbps of MIR traffic, and 10mbps of CIR traffic without a doubt. Or 16mbps of MIR traffic in half the spectrum. We just change our offering to sell MIR traffic, and the customers that need CIR, buy more capacity than they need to guarantee the headroom to meet their need. We no longer try to guarantee finite exact amounts of bandwdith. Instead we deliver better value and an improved experience. If 50% of the time you can tranfer twice as fast, thats an improved experience. I as well share the view that all radios should come stock with Dual Polarity, and to this day, I do not understand why so many vendors have not yet seen the light. But the fact is, they don't. So we need to make choices. And 5 years into this industry it frustrates me to have to make hard choices. When 10mbps was good enough for me, it was clear as day to pick a Dual Polarity TDD radio. But when greater than 10mbps is needed, its not so clear anymore. Does one sacrifice needed capacity, for greater options to stear from interference? I'm not answering that question, its up to the WISP to answer for himself, and how confident they are that they will likely need or not need to stear around interference. As more customers are taken on, more bandwdith is needed. And as more competitors come to town, more bandwdith is needed. And the WISP that picks up more of the customers sooner, gets more of them, and starts paying off their gear sooner, to allow them to have the price advantage long term as their competitors become stronger. Sure I can add more downtilt, and deploy more cell sites, but that cost more money and requires paying more landlords, instead of put money in my pocket, or increase the reoccurring value of my assets. Money given to a landlord, is a pure cost, with no reoccurring value earned after the month is over. Its not a matter of whats best, that battle is not possible to win. The situation here is, there is a specific need, and Alvarion is comming back with an answer to that need, and its available bug-free and proven, TODAY. Alvarion offers.. a low cost CPE, a quality high gain antenna that meets 90% of the install needs in one product, improves installation time and cost, allows higher speeds most of the time, and maximizes its effectiveness by adding many advanced features (See Patrick's posts). This answer is not for everyone, but its a heck of a value proposition for many. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 6:41 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Rich, Exactly my point and exactly why users operating in the unlicensed spectrum need as many tools available at their disposal as possible. My criticism and suggestions have been to illuminate just those features as extremely valuable to guys like me that sell CIR not MIR. Frankly the DP & DB features should be extremely valuable to any unlicensed operator regardless of the business plan. How can it be that greater flexibility as I have described isn't going to better a product? Just like many believe ATPC should be mandatory on all future unlicensed products I believe DP & DB should be mandatory! Not going to happen, but the products that do offer these features will be superior in their abilities to avoid and/or work around interference. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived There's no unlicensed product which guarantees business class services in interference. To suggest product A does and product B doesn't is nonsense. I think you've done a good job of describing why you think some products do a better job of than others. That's fair. Sharing experiences where one product did better than another is fair. I love reading your posts and others comparing the attributes which impact on this. It's educational and I get insights into equipment that I haven't personally had direct experience. But the constant bashing that some product will guarantee business class services in interference and another wo
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
George, We are definitely listening. This will be changed going forward. If you need some additional flange nuts (7/16), let me know. Same goes for you Marlon. Regards, Ben -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: > Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of > Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at > PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. > They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to > carry FOUR tools up the ladder. > > Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People > have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep > screwing with. > > If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough > things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange > default username/password combos! BINGO, we found this out yesterday and hope that this is a temporary thing. Hope fully Ben is reading this.. Not a good thing to change. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hello Rich,
Exactly my point and exactly why users operating in the unlicensed spectrum
need as many tools available at their disposal as possible. My criticism
and suggestions have been to illuminate just those features as extremely
valuable to guys like me that sell CIR not MIR.
Frankly the DP & DB features should be extremely valuable to any unlicensed
operator regardless of the business plan. How can it be that greater
flexibility as I have described isn't going to better a product?
Just like many believe ATPC should be mandatory on all future unlicensed
products I believe DP & DB should be mandatory! Not going to happen, but
the products that do offer these features will be superior in their
abilities to avoid and/or work around interference.
Best,
Brad
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Comroe
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:56 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
There's no unlicensed product which guarantees business class services in
interference. To suggest product A does and product B doesn't is nonsense.
I think you've done a good job of describing why you think some products do
a better job of than others. That's fair. Sharing experiences where one
product did better than another is fair. I love reading your posts and
others comparing the attributes which impact on this. It's educational and
I get insights into equipment that I haven't personally had direct
experience. But the constant bashing that some product will guarantee
business class services in interference and another won't is tiresome, and
just turns people off from the good content that people appreciate.
Rich
- Original Message -
From: Brad Belton
To: 'WISPA General List'
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Certainly you can do committed rate business class services with
unlicensed
products. WMUX, Terabridge, Trango just to name a few. Are they
interchangeable in application? Nope, they require you use the right
product for the job at hand. What may work well on one project may not on
the next.
Interference typically isn't temporary...at least not around these parts!
No, you need to engineer the link with enough forethought and available
tools on hand to give yourself options in the event a link does begin to
incur interference.
In our experience the VL was erratic in its ability to consistently
produce
the same end result day in and day out. Alvarion, me and the third party
client all knew before hand the site was very RF unfriendly. I visited
the
site personally to run surveys before any gear was deployed. We spent the
better part of a month with Alvarion trying to get the VL to produce a
consistent level of throughput at any level without success. Just as I
began to believe we had it licked we would get another call from the
client.
The really frustrating part of all this is the throughput would vary
depending on just how busy the other gear in the area was. The busiest
times of day is when we realized the link really suffered.
I felt obligated to share our VL results here because Marlon indicated he
was looking for a business class product. VL is not that...at least not
in
our book.
Best,
Brad
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Comroe
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:35 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
>Products that are best effort [snip product name]
>end up making guys like us look bad.
I'm confused how can anyone do better than "best effort" in unlicensed
spectrum, regardless of manufacturer?
>There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
>getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.
If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a
licensed channel can accomplish that?
Rich
- Original Message -
From: Brad Belton
To: 'WISPA General List'
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not
produce
the results we are after then we look at other products. We will not
tie
our hands to one brand. No reason to.
Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on. Yes,
CIR
is what we sell not MIR. That may be a good thing for us or it may turn
out
to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to
deliver.
Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look
bad.
There is nothing worse than in
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Mac, Mac, I was reminded that you had a question at the end...here is my answer, with the real meat, the blunt talk, towards the end. The AUs are not actually the same as the CPE. I understand there are some hardware differences. That said, the real reason AUs cost more than CPE has nothing to do with actual box costs on a one-to-one basis. It is more of a total-margin-across-a-network type economic equation. All vendors have some form of margin loss leader and in this business that happens on the CPE end. We've all (BWA vendors) done the equation that says for every X CPE, 1 access unit is purchased. In understanding that ratio, and how it changes over the life of the market and product line, we are all hopefully able to plan and balance gross margin across a product family. All professional (which is to say, FCC-certified and/or other such legal and/or rated attributes like UL listing, ISO-certified, etc.) price this way -- our per unit pricing on infrastructure is higher than per unit of CPE. Also, over time as standards take hold (like they did in wireless LAN) in the outside, metroscale wireless world, CPE becomes more and more commoditized. Production of standardized commodity elements of a solution then migrate to the commodity builders, with the more complex and higher MTBF infrastructure pieces still built by the experts, the specialty suppliers. The Alvarion's of the world are not commodity builders. We are among the innovators and inventors, the guys that pour tens and even hundreds of millions into R&D, then hope to see return on that investment mostly by selling infrastructure as the market fully matures. I'm not sure that's the answer you want, but it's accurate. If your question is why does ours cost more than others, that's another question, but certainly investment, quality and durability of components, ISO-rated manufacturing processes, etc. contribute. But even that said, few things in this world are priced based solely on the cost of the parts and the manufacturing and handling. That's part of it, but everyone tries to price in the end based on value offered. Something that is well-priced will be accepted by many, rejected by some. Something poorly priced will be accepted by all, which means money is likely being left on the table, or rejected by all, which means the maker is too proud of their goods or have not otherwise convinced the market of the value. From a WISP standpoint, I think Alvarion got damned close to being too proud and certainly did not do the best job of convincing WISPs of the value of products like BreezeACCESS VL. That's why I asked to be allowed to personally re-focus on the WISP space and from that comes the AlvarionCOMNET program. With that, I believe we are right closer to the "being accepted by all" end of the spectrum and I know some internally here think maybe I've gone too far. It's my gamble and my ass on the line and I'm thankful for the responsibility and appreciative my boss invested his confidence. By the way, the AUS access unit model, which was released on the market last month, is only $2,595 list... Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:41 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Patrick, You are a better man than I am - no doubt! You have answered seven thousand questions, retorted seven thousand fallacies and straightened out another seven thousand myths. I have been a consultant for Trango for the last two years and I do know every in and every out of Trango gear. I can tell you what it will do and what it will not do, what to expect and what not to look for by "just looking" at your coverage area. It doesn't matter if it's 900 MHz, 5.x or 2.4GHz - - I can tell you some stuff. I have built Muni networks with Trango and I have built my personal network with Trango and a menagerie of different gear. I can also tell you and the rest of the world about Alvarion. I bought another WISP in a distant town and when I bought them out they were a 100% Alvarion network. That was my first experience with Alvarion. I will tell you that they had the 3mbps gear up, they had a 99% business network and that they had 0% LOS to any client. I never bothered to check out their clients or how they were installed, but jumped at the opportunity to buy them out at a great price. When I did get the deal done I soon realized the gear they were running far exceeded what I had in store. I did have to place 900MHz gear to replace the Alvarion 3mbps FHSS to establish and maintain those connections. These folks didn't know sheet from shinola, but they had a nice WISP and all they could s
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Thanks for the good post and advice Mac. I hope you are enjoying an excellent "Cajun Christmas." I should tell you, our regional engineer, Keith, is a "Lu'siana" boy. So much so he is now moving back home though he was only in neighboring Texas. Patrick This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
My sentiments exactly, I was about to type something very similar but have had a busy morning and hadn't gotten to it yet. I try to steer clear of lists that allow this behavior to continue. As moderator of this list, I should have cracked down on this quicker than this. I appreciate your support during my lapse of moderating effort :) Tone it down folks, lets start the new year out right. Respectfully, Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:03 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Brad, I just am getting a bit gun shy now when I see you post a complaint about no polarity this - no dual band that - or whatever your beef of the day is with VL. When you do it we inevitably get to see Patrick or Brad Larson go into defense mode which gets tiresome also. It is like some twisted tennis match that has no love. (pun intended) It might be different if it were not the same story told over and over again. I am sorry I felt compelled to come down on you guys about these things but I am getting very annoyed and I bet I am not alone. With that said I can also say that Alvarion does not get to bash Trango or Canopy or others on here any longer. Alvarion representatives will be called on this from now on when it happens. I have seen Trango and Canopy both represented in a very bad light by 2 Alvarion representatives on this list in the last 48 hours and it needs to stop. Intelligent comparisons about features and benefits are encouraged. Trashing one vendor over another (by a vendor) is going to stop right now. WISPs get to complain (briefly please) about issues they have with vendors. We all need to know what is working and what is broken. Sometimes the problem can be solved by others who saw the same thing and know a solution. Sometimes the vendor can intervene and be the hero for all to see. Vendors need to use this list as a resource and see first hand what people are saying about their products. They should help their customers here, on the list, when they can. Trying to defend every statement made leads to flame wars and hurt feelings and generally does not help solve anything. Use the list the way it was intended please. This is my number one issue here today. To all of you, this list was not created to be a place where people complain endlessly about gear all day long just as it is not a place to advertise gear all day long. This is not the purpose. Say your complaints and attaboys clearly and mean them and then move on. If you are a vendor and want to compare your features and such then so be it but no more trashing the other guy on here. It is tiresome, childish and non-productive and, imho, it hurts the image of this association when you guys do it. I will gladly continue this debate / discussion / flame / whatever offlist. I will not complain about you guys on here any longer. Continuing to complain over and over again about you guys on here would be redundant and non-productive, right? I think I have made my point clearly and I am ready to move on. Let's have a Happy New Year and start next year off right with good posts with substance that help our industry prosper. Scriv Brad Belton wrote: >My statement below is simply a fact regarding committed rate business class >service. If Alvarion Support could have made it work then the gear would >still be up and the client would still be using it. > >How many times have I said Alvarion makes a quality product? How many times >have I said I'd love to be able to use Alvarion? How many times have I said >this isn't about one brand vs. another, but rather results? > >John, I get the feeling you just aren't reading through the posts >completely. Clearly I do not "hate VL" instead I'd love to see the product >IMPROVED! What is so wrong with that? > >Best, > > >Brad > > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of John Scrivner >Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:09 AM >To: WISPA General List >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > > > >>The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of >>the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, >>but not for committed rate business class service. >> >>Best, >> >> >>Brad >> >> >> >> >> >Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot >help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and >over to this list. I do not need to be told every day
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Brad, I just am getting a bit gun shy now when I see you post a complaint about no polarity this - no dual band that - or whatever your beef of the day is with VL. When you do it we inevitably get to see Patrick or Brad Larson go into defense mode which gets tiresome also. It is like some twisted tennis match that has no love. (pun intended) It might be different if it were not the same story told over and over again. I am sorry I felt compelled to come down on you guys about these things but I am getting very annoyed and I bet I am not alone. With that said I can also say that Alvarion does not get to bash Trango or Canopy or others on here any longer. Alvarion representatives will be called on this from now on when it happens. I have seen Trango and Canopy both represented in a very bad light by 2 Alvarion representatives on this list in the last 48 hours and it needs to stop. Intelligent comparisons about features and benefits are encouraged. Trashing one vendor over another (by a vendor) is going to stop right now. WISPs get to complain (briefly please) about issues they have with vendors. We all need to know what is working and what is broken. Sometimes the problem can be solved by others who saw the same thing and know a solution. Sometimes the vendor can intervene and be the hero for all to see. Vendors need to use this list as a resource and see first hand what people are saying about their products. They should help their customers here, on the list, when they can. Trying to defend every statement made leads to flame wars and hurt feelings and generally does not help solve anything. Use the list the way it was intended please. This is my number one issue here today. To all of you, this list was not created to be a place where people complain endlessly about gear all day long just as it is not a place to advertise gear all day long. This is not the purpose. Say your complaints and attaboys clearly and mean them and then move on. If you are a vendor and want to compare your features and such then so be it but no more trashing the other guy on here. It is tiresome, childish and non-productive and, imho, it hurts the image of this association when you guys do it. I will gladly continue this debate / discussion / flame / whatever offlist. I will not complain about you guys on here any longer. Continuing to complain over and over again about you guys on here would be redundant and non-productive, right? I think I have made my point clearly and I am ready to move on. Let's have a Happy New Year and start next year off right with good posts with substance that help our industry prosper. Scriv Brad Belton wrote: My statement below is simply a fact regarding committed rate business class service. If Alvarion Support could have made it work then the gear would still be up and the client would still be using it. How many times have I said Alvarion makes a quality product? How many times have I said I'd love to be able to use Alvarion? How many times have I said this isn't about one brand vs. another, but rather results? John, I get the feeling you just aren't reading through the posts completely. Clearly I do not "hate VL" instead I'd love to see the product IMPROVED! What is so wrong with that? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, but not for committed rate business class service. Best, Brad Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and over to this list. I do not need to be told every day that VL is bad in the "world according to Brad Belton". We have all heard you say it 100 times I think. (Maybe several time that if we look at your posts to other lists about the same issues) Please change the record. There are many of us who do not agree with you that find your non-stop nitpicking posts to be a nuisance to this list. We get ityou hate VL. You stated your piece and we all read about it, OVER and OVER. Alvarion is open to criticism just as any other platform and we show no favoritism but enough is enough. Please move on to another topic. Respectfully, Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
There's no unlicensed product which guarantees business class services in interference. To suggest product A does and product B doesn't is nonsense. I think you've done a good job of describing why you think some products do a better job of than others. That's fair. Sharing experiences where one product did better than another is fair. I love reading your posts and others comparing the attributes which impact on this. It's educational and I get insights into equipment that I haven't personally had direct experience. But the constant bashing that some product will guarantee business class services in interference and another won't is tiresome, and just turns people off from the good content that people appreciate. Rich - Original Message - From: Brad Belton To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:26 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Certainly you can do committed rate business class services with unlicensed products. WMUX, Terabridge, Trango just to name a few. Are they interchangeable in application? Nope, they require you use the right product for the job at hand. What may work well on one project may not on the next. Interference typically isn't temporary...at least not around these parts! No, you need to engineer the link with enough forethought and available tools on hand to give yourself options in the event a link does begin to incur interference. In our experience the VL was erratic in its ability to consistently produce the same end result day in and day out. Alvarion, me and the third party client all knew before hand the site was very RF unfriendly. I visited the site personally to run surveys before any gear was deployed. We spent the better part of a month with Alvarion trying to get the VL to produce a consistent level of throughput at any level without success. Just as I began to believe we had it licked we would get another call from the client. The really frustrating part of all this is the throughput would vary depending on just how busy the other gear in the area was. The busiest times of day is when we realized the link really suffered. I felt obligated to share our VL results here because Marlon indicated he was looking for a business class product. VL is not that...at least not in our book. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >Products that are best effort [snip product name] >end up making guys like us look bad. I'm confused how can anyone do better than "best effort" in unlicensed spectrum, regardless of manufacturer? >There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day >getting a call saying they are getting something less than that. If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a licensed channel can accomplish that? Rich - Original Message - From: Brad Belton To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:17 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not produce the results we are after then we look at other products. We will not tie our hands to one brand. No reason to. Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on. Yes, CIR is what we sell not MIR. That may be a good thing for us or it may turn out to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to deliver. Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look bad. There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day getting a call saying they are getting something less than that. Expectations and end results are everything to us. We meet expectations or we'd rather not do it, part ways amiability and maintain our reputation. It's a small town! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:57 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of >the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, >but not for committed rate business class service. Agreed. But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't work well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset thing is that can be delivered. CIR ser
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Love the post. Thanks. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Bushard, Jr Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:03 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Brad, Jon, Patrick. I really think all of you are off the path here As Patrick knows we ARE a scaled canopy operator. I designed this baby from the ground up, everything from the L3 switches, Battery backup, 3rd party antennas, conversions, everything. We are currently over 1,200 Canopy CPE in the field and doing over 100 installs per month. Does Canopy have it's issues, your DAMN right. But it works, yes it does require a high level of knowledge to scale a canopy network, but what system doesn't? anyone can throw together a 50 sub network, but 500 or 5000 separates the men from the boys. Marlon originally said he was thinking about deploying VL for business customers. Well guess what. we are too. And I think they are for similar reasons. The original network I owned was based on InvisiMax Access Points on Soekris SBC's with Senao wifi cards and CB3's as the CPE radios. Once I got it working it ran very well, but when I sold out the new owners needed more so I chose Canopy. Well now we want to deploy a Premium business service, lets say 3Mbps of data with 6 Voice Lines. I KNOW canopy in its current state will not do that with any scalability, so I turned to Patrick and PCS Technologies. I think we all know that VL wont hit a sub 5 miles out in the MN forest, only 900 or lower can do that, I also don't expect 900 to push 30Mbps of data. Everything has its trade offs. As far as the GPS debate, I DO think GPS is a good thing, it sure can't hurt. Did Alvarion choose to implement it, no, do I have a problem with it, no. Canopy has it for channel reuse, and because it needs it, period no more arguing, please. BA 900 and 2.4 has it because to scale it needs it. After all the only thing that can kill canopy IS canopy. I probably should write more, but I have to work early (Towers crews coming to put up another Dragon Wave). I realize I may not have done anything to help, hopefully I have not mad an ass of myself, but I am really getting tired of the Canopy Vs Alvarion Vs Trango bull crap. Run what you feel is the best, and if you can't live with the fact that others disagree, keep it to yourself. Marlon is a (I feel) intelligent enough guy to make his own decisions, he has been doing this a long time, He is still around, so he must have either got real lucky, figured it out, or have the brains in the first place. Maybe some day well all be at a conference and can rent a boxing ring and work this out but until then, please leave it alone, my delete key with thank you. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC 320-256-WISP (9477) 320-256-9478 Fax -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Not sure how your Alvarion 900 was configured, but our you are aware that our 900 and 2.4 have both supported GPS sync since day one right Eight years before Canopy even launched)? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 5:54 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Let's use 900MHz as an example. We deployed Alvarion 900 on multiple sites for over a year and it was a less than enjoyable experience. We started by transitioning one site from Alvarion 900 to Canopy 900 and things started working much better. I may use licensed operations as an example only because I've had the experience of being on both sides of the fence. Also we buy GPS sync units as low as $300 new from a 3rd party vendor, as do many canopy operators. As for the excess bandwidth availability in the UL bands, that's definately not the case here... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Patrick Leary wrote: >Jon, > >When discussing GPS, you continue to offer examples from the licensed >world, which is about as relevant as trying to do an apples to apples >comparisons of mobile licensed cellular service plans with UL fixed >wireless. As I have said before (last week), licensed uses GPS due to >the necessity of having to re-use a small amount of channel over and >over again, cell after cell. That's not the case in the UL world, except >perhaps for Canopy whose bandwidth availability is so low relative to >the channel. > >Jon, you, me
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Jon, Sigh...Sync in wimax is the preferred method for small channel deployments to ensure QOS and protecting a scheduled mac that has not been optimized for interference rejection. I would also conclude that mobility and denser cell sites for voip and indoor installs are quite different than most UL deployments. Sync has very little to do with using an old modulation technique that needs sync to ensure scale of any size. I would argue that megabits per Hz, voip, and video are the things to watch for 2007 and beyond. For further information on sync and wimax in the UL bands keep your eye on 802.16h. I would add that if you can't connect a customer because of LOS issues all the sync you can muster doesn't make a difference. Connecting those customers and saving money on the number of cell sites, leases, and maintenance of those sites DOES make a MAJOR difference as well as WHAT you can sell to your customers in the form of additional services other than just data! A well respected ISP just did a bakeoff in a metro area and they found out very quickly that VL connected more subscriber sites at much higher data rates. I had an engineer on the ground doing 6 meg's up and down where Mot had zero connectivity at 6 of the 11 sites that were the problem areas. As far as your statement of having "happy" customers, Marty from Roadstar already answered that one and please keep in mind that probably very few Alvarion shops are subscribers here (I'm trying to change that because I think it's very important that you guys hear more from our installed base). Maybe Marty and others will chime in on their low maintenance and ease of install and the support we offer. I know Marty is saving boatloads of money on the backend because of his change of manufacturer. BTW, The 2,400 cpe 5 square mile network I spoke of in a previous post is humming right along and could have never been built at the same cost with Mot (and they lost the bid because of that). As a side note: Many of my customers tell me that they just don't get all the Alvarion dissing that has become commonplace on the lists. Look at this current thread and how it has spun into something other than what was intended.One situation from one installation set the tone for the dissing while at the same time we have a multitude of trained and certified VAR's and wisp's that have had the exact opposite opinion and are doing the exact installs and builds that we're being told can't be done (and several VAR's have done 100's of them). It's a shame we constantly have to defend our position from the constant rhetoric any time there is a congratulating post from one of our customers or someone asking for insight on the value of an Alvarion rollout...Brad Larson -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I didn't make any 'claims' and as for 1,000 cpe, that's possible with wifi(although I'd hate to be one of the end-users). Some of the differences is how happy the customers are(reliability seems to play key here), whether they're business or res., how easy it is to have lower cost employees deploy the network(as opposed to me and other "qualified" or "certified" engineers that charge $10K's more/yr), and how tasked the support and management department is, etc. Things that factor into operating a real world wisp. My kind of business is one I can leave for a vacation or another venture while having confidence the thing is going to continue growing while I'm gone. As for GPS sync. Maybe the cellular guys were wrong the whole time, must be another Moto consipiracy and maybe mention that to everyone that developed 802.16d/e(WIMAX) including your own Alvarion engineers! ;) No GPS is not required, but it sure makes a lot of sense and is arguably 'proper' for a multi cell deployment. I predict this is one of those things that the novice wisp will someday either understand, moved on beyond wireless last mile, or stuck it out and trained their support dept. on how to 'put out fires' for as long as possible. Of course all of this is my opinion but I have to go now...hopfully was enough for everyone to chew on ;) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Brad Larson wrote: >Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably >never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread was >started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000 cpe >threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed to >be possible according to some posting on this topic!! And the funny part >of it is, VL displaced one of the products mentioned...performa
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
My statement below is simply a fact regarding committed rate business class service. If Alvarion Support could have made it work then the gear would still be up and the client would still be using it. How many times have I said Alvarion makes a quality product? How many times have I said I'd love to be able to use Alvarion? How many times have I said this isn't about one brand vs. another, but rather results? John, I get the feeling you just aren't reading through the posts completely. Clearly I do not "hate VL" instead I'd love to see the product IMPROVED! What is so wrong with that? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of >the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, >but not for committed rate business class service. > >Best, > > >Brad > > > Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and over to this list. I do not need to be told every day that VL is bad in the "world according to Brad Belton". We have all heard you say it 100 times I think. (Maybe several time that if we look at your posts to other lists about the same issues) Please change the record. There are many of us who do not agree with you that find your non-stop nitpicking posts to be a nuisance to this list. We get ityou hate VL. You stated your piece and we all read about it, OVER and OVER. Alvarion is open to criticism just as any other platform and we show no favoritism but enough is enough. Please move on to another topic. Respectfully, Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
"These folks didn't know sheet from shinola, but they had a nice WISP and all they could say was "Alvarion." They never bothered to further themselves education wise, but called on Trango to buy more gear when they had another client. When I tell you they couldn't spell PC - - they didn't have a clue" CORRECTION should read: They never bothered to further themselves education wise but, called on ALVARION to buy more gear.. Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 2:41 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Patrick, You are a better man than I am - no doubt! You have answered seven thousand questions, retorted seven thousand fallacies and straightened out another seven thousand myths. I have been a consultant for Trango for the last two years and I do know every in and every out of Trango gear. I can tell you what it will do and what it will not do, what to expect and what not to look for by "just looking" at your coverage area. It doesn't matter if it's 900 MHz, 5.x or 2.4GHz - - I can tell you some stuff. I have built Muni networks with Trango and I have built my personal network with Trango and a menagerie of different gear. I can also tell you and the rest of the world about Alvarion. I bought another WISP in a distant town and when I bought them out they were a 100% Alvarion network. That was my first experience with Alvarion. I will tell you that they had the 3mbps gear up, they had a 99% business network and that they had 0% LOS to any client. I never bothered to check out their clients or how they were installed, but jumped at the opportunity to buy them out at a great price. When I did get the deal done I soon realized the gear they were running far exceeded what I had in store. I did have to place 900MHz gear to replace the Alvarion 3mbps FHSS to establish and maintain those connections. These folks didn't know sheet from shinola, but they had a nice WISP and all they could say was "Alvarion." They never bothered to further themselves education wise, but called on Trango to buy more gear when they had another client. When I tell you they couldn't spell PC - - they didn't have a clue. All this said - - - why do you feel you must guard against and protect Alvarion from every opposing opinion? I don't have to tell you that there are those that can be starving from thirst, led to water and still die from thirst. The ComNet program is absolutely a great program that has enabled (and will enable) many WISP to upgrade to a carrier class program. I can't speak for anyone else, but I (as an old time Trango hand) appreciate all the work that I know you personally put into this program. You are a good man who cares about the folks who make this wireless industry exist. All right - - one question for myself - - - - dang, why are the AP's so stinking expensive? It is only a software difference and if the AP's weren't as costly - - - I believe that Alvarion would run off with the market. Why is it that this type gear has to be so substantially higher in cost? Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived ...okay, I went off the deep end there. It was wrong of me to insult the competition because I'm allowing myself to be baited. Sorry folks. Sorry Trango. Ghrr. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next! Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have something worth taking note about. Throw in dual band ability and now you're on the right track. As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a VL radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so. Sounds like fun! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Patrick, You are a better man than I am - no doubt! You have answered seven thousand questions, retorted seven thousand fallacies and straightened out another seven thousand myths. I have been a consultant for Trango for the last two years and I do know every in and every out of Trango gear. I can tell you what it will do and what it will not do, what to expect and what not to look for by "just looking" at your coverage area. It doesn't matter if it's 900 MHz, 5.x or 2.4GHz - - I can tell you some stuff. I have built Muni networks with Trango and I have built my personal network with Trango and a menagerie of different gear. I can also tell you and the rest of the world about Alvarion. I bought another WISP in a distant town and when I bought them out they were a 100% Alvarion network. That was my first experience with Alvarion. I will tell you that they had the 3mbps gear up, they had a 99% business network and that they had 0% LOS to any client. I never bothered to check out their clients or how they were installed, but jumped at the opportunity to buy them out at a great price. When I did get the deal done I soon realized the gear they were running far exceeded what I had in store. I did have to place 900MHz gear to replace the Alvarion 3mbps FHSS to establish and maintain those connections. These folks didn't know sheet from shinola, but they had a nice WISP and all they could say was "Alvarion." They never bothered to further themselves education wise, but called on Trango to buy more gear when they had another client. When I tell you they couldn't spell PC - - they didn't have a clue. All this said - - - why do you feel you must guard against and protect Alvarion from every opposing opinion? I don't have to tell you that there are those that can be starving from thirst, led to water and still die from thirst. The ComNet program is absolutely a great program that has enabled (and will enable) many WISP to upgrade to a carrier class program. I can't speak for anyone else, but I (as an old time Trango hand) appreciate all the work that I know you personally put into this program. You are a good man who cares about the folks who make this wireless industry exist. All right - - one question for myself - - - - dang, why are the AP's so stinking expensive? It is only a software difference and if the AP's weren't as costly - - - I believe that Alvarion would run off with the market. Why is it that this type gear has to be so substantially higher in cost? Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived ...okay, I went off the deep end there. It was wrong of me to insult the competition because I'm allowing myself to be baited. Sorry folks. Sorry Trango. Ghrr. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next! Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have something worth taking note about. Throw in dual band ability and now you're on the right track. As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a VL radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so. Sounds like fun! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual horizontal Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?). Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even considering the 10Mhz channel option. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Gino A. Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist Motorola is extremely conservative on > the spec sheet. "4.21 Mbps" Net typical" where you get that? I got > Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the > most effective modulation, but is a very good co
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, but not for committed rate business class service. Best, Brad Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and over to this list. I do not need to be told every day that VL is bad in the "world according to Brad Belton". We have all heard you say it 100 times I think. (Maybe several time that if we look at your posts to other lists about the same issues) Please change the record. There are many of us who do not agree with you that find your non-stop nitpicking posts to be a nuisance to this list. We get ityou hate VL. You stated your piece and we all read about it, OVER and OVER. Alvarion is open to criticism just as any other platform and we show no favoritism but enough is enough. Please move on to another topic. Respectfully, Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
For sure. Either way GPS was not responsible for the increase in performance that we saw. We didn't add GPS to many of our canopy sites until maybe 1-2 years ago when we started spectrum coordination with most of the competitors(that also use canopy). I'm not sure if your telling me(the operator), that the manufacturer is right and the operator is wrong or what, but this has been what we've been through and I feel obligated to share with those less experienced. Thanks Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Patrick Leary wrote: Not sure how your Alvarion 900 was configured, but our you are aware that our 900 and 2.4 have both supported GPS sync since day one right Eight years before Canopy even launched)? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Brad, Jon, Patrick. I really think all of you are off the path here As Patrick knows we ARE a scaled canopy operator. I designed this baby from the ground up, everything from the L3 switches, Battery backup, 3rd party antennas, conversions, everything. We are currently over 1,200 Canopy CPE in the field and doing over 100 installs per month. Does Canopy have it's issues, your DAMN right. But it works, yes it does require a high level of knowledge to scale a canopy network, but what system doesn't? anyone can throw together a 50 sub network, but 500 or 5000 separates the men from the boys. Marlon originally said he was thinking about deploying VL for business customers. Well guess what. we are too. And I think they are for similar reasons. The original network I owned was based on InvisiMax Access Points on Soekris SBC's with Senao wifi cards and CB3's as the CPE radios. Once I got it working it ran very well, but when I sold out the new owners needed more so I chose Canopy. Well now we want to deploy a Premium business service, lets say 3Mbps of data with 6 Voice Lines. I KNOW canopy in its current state will not do that with any scalability, so I turned to Patrick and PCS Technologies. I think we all know that VL wont hit a sub 5 miles out in the MN forest, only 900 or lower can do that, I also don't expect 900 to push 30Mbps of data. Everything has its trade offs. As far as the GPS debate, I DO think GPS is a good thing, it sure can't hurt. Did Alvarion choose to implement it, no, do I have a problem with it, no. Canopy has it for channel reuse, and because it needs it, period no more arguing, please. BA 900 and 2.4 has it because to scale it needs it. After all the only thing that can kill canopy IS canopy. I probably should write more, but I have to work early (Towers crews coming to put up another Dragon Wave). I realize I may not have done anything to help, hopefully I have not mad an ass of myself, but I am really getting tired of the Canopy Vs Alvarion Vs Trango bull crap. Run what you feel is the best, and if you can't live with the fact that others disagree, keep it to yourself. Marlon is a (I feel) intelligent enough guy to make his own decisions, he has been doing this a long time, He is still around, so he must have either got real lucky, figured it out, or have the brains in the first place. Maybe some day well all be at a conference and can rent a boxing ring and work this out but until then, please leave it alone, my delete key with thank you. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC 320-256-WISP (9477) 320-256-9478 Fax -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Not sure how your Alvarion 900 was configured, but our you are aware that our 900 and 2.4 have both supported GPS sync since day one right Eight years before Canopy even launched)? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 5:54 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Let's use 900MHz as an example. We deployed Alvarion 900 on multiple sites for over a year and it was a less than enjoyable experience. We started by transitioning one site from Alvarion 900 to Canopy 900 and things started working much better. I may use licensed operations as an example only because I've had the experience of being on both sides of the fence. Also we buy GPS sync units as low as $300 new from a 3rd party vendor, as do many canopy operators. As for the excess bandwidth availability in the UL bands, that's definately not the case here... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Patrick Leary wrote: >Jon, > >When discussing GPS, you continue to offer examples from the licensed >world, which is about as relevant as trying to do an apples to apples >comparisons of mobile licensed cellular service plans with UL fixed >wireless. As I have said before (last week), licensed uses GPS due to >the necessity of having to re-use a small amount of channel over and >over again, cell after cell. That's not the case in the UL world, except >perhaps for Canopy whose bandwidth availability is so low relative to >the channel. > >Jon, you, me, the fence post and everyone else knows why Canopy -- alone >in the entire UL 5GHz world -- requires GPS to scale, it's to keep from >stepping all over itself. It is not even a debatable point. The >recommendation is right there in Canopy white papers -- let me >paraphrase: "Deploying Canopy? What to scale? Buy this $1,500 cluster >management module for
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Not sure how your Alvarion 900 was configured, but our you are aware that our 900 and 2.4 have both supported GPS sync since day one right Eight years before Canopy even launched)? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 5:54 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Let's use 900MHz as an example. We deployed Alvarion 900 on multiple sites for over a year and it was a less than enjoyable experience. We started by transitioning one site from Alvarion 900 to Canopy 900 and things started working much better. I may use licensed operations as an example only because I've had the experience of being on both sides of the fence. Also we buy GPS sync units as low as $300 new from a 3rd party vendor, as do many canopy operators. As for the excess bandwidth availability in the UL bands, that's definately not the case here... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Patrick Leary wrote: >Jon, > >When discussing GPS, you continue to offer examples from the licensed >world, which is about as relevant as trying to do an apples to apples >comparisons of mobile licensed cellular service plans with UL fixed >wireless. As I have said before (last week), licensed uses GPS due to >the necessity of having to re-use a small amount of channel over and >over again, cell after cell. That's not the case in the UL world, except >perhaps for Canopy whose bandwidth availability is so low relative to >the channel. > >Jon, you, me, the fence post and everyone else knows why Canopy -- alone >in the entire UL 5GHz world -- requires GPS to scale, it's to keep from >stepping all over itself. It is not even a debatable point. The >recommendation is right there in Canopy white papers -- let me >paraphrase: "Deploying Canopy? What to scale? Buy this $1,500 cluster >management module for each cell! (P.S. Don't forget the $125 power >supply.)" > >Seriously, saying Canopy's GPS (something you have to pay extra for >even) is a value-added feature is like saying my car is special because >it has tires. I have to hand it to Motorola though, they have convinced >you that the one thing no other brand needs in UL, is something you have >the privilege of paying extra for just to get your brand to work well in >even modest scale in the first place. > >Patrick Leary >AVP WISP Markets >Alvarion, Inc. >o: 650.314.2628 >c: 760.580.0080 >Vonage: 650.641.1243 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Jon Langeler >Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:05 AM >To: WISPA General List >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > >I didn't make any 'claims' and as for 1,000 cpe, that's possible with >wifi(although I'd hate to be one of the end-users). Some of the >differences is how happy the customers are(reliability seems to play key > >here), whether they're business or res., how easy it is to have lower >cost employees deploy the network(as opposed to me and other "qualified" > >or "certified" engineers that charge $10K's more/yr), and how tasked the > >support and management department is, etc. Things that factor into >operating a real world wisp. My kind of business is one I can leave for >a vacation or another venture while having confidence the thing is going > >to continue growing while I'm gone. >As for GPS sync. Maybe the cellular guys were wrong the whole time, must > >be another Moto consipiracy and maybe mention that to everyone that >developed 802.16d/e(WIMAX) including your own Alvarion engineers! ;) No >GPS is not required, but it sure makes a lot of sense and is arguably >'proper' for a multi cell deployment. I predict this is one of those >things that the novice wisp will someday either understand, moved on >beyond wireless last mile, or stuck it out and trained their support >dept. on how to 'put out fires' for as long as possible. Of course all >of this is my opinion but I have to go now...hopfully was enough for >everyone to chew on ;) > >Jon Langeler >Michwave Tech. > >Brad Larson wrote: > > > >>Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably >>never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread was >>started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000 cpe >>threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed >> >> >
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Let's use 900MHz as an example. We deployed Alvarion 900 on multiple sites for over a year and it was a less than enjoyable experience. We started by transitioning one site from Alvarion 900 to Canopy 900 and things started working much better. I may use licensed operations as an example only because I've had the experience of being on both sides of the fence. Also we buy GPS sync units as low as $300 new from a 3rd party vendor, as do many canopy operators. As for the excess bandwidth availability in the UL bands, that's definately not the case here... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Patrick Leary wrote: Jon, When discussing GPS, you continue to offer examples from the licensed world, which is about as relevant as trying to do an apples to apples comparisons of mobile licensed cellular service plans with UL fixed wireless. As I have said before (last week), licensed uses GPS due to the necessity of having to re-use a small amount of channel over and over again, cell after cell. That's not the case in the UL world, except perhaps for Canopy whose bandwidth availability is so low relative to the channel. Jon, you, me, the fence post and everyone else knows why Canopy -- alone in the entire UL 5GHz world -- requires GPS to scale, it's to keep from stepping all over itself. It is not even a debatable point. The recommendation is right there in Canopy white papers -- let me paraphrase: "Deploying Canopy? What to scale? Buy this $1,500 cluster management module for each cell! (P.S. Don't forget the $125 power supply.)" Seriously, saying Canopy's GPS (something you have to pay extra for even) is a value-added feature is like saying my car is special because it has tires. I have to hand it to Motorola though, they have convinced you that the one thing no other brand needs in UL, is something you have the privilege of paying extra for just to get your brand to work well in even modest scale in the first place. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I didn't make any 'claims' and as for 1,000 cpe, that's possible with wifi(although I'd hate to be one of the end-users). Some of the differences is how happy the customers are(reliability seems to play key here), whether they're business or res., how easy it is to have lower cost employees deploy the network(as opposed to me and other "qualified" or "certified" engineers that charge $10K's more/yr), and how tasked the support and management department is, etc. Things that factor into operating a real world wisp. My kind of business is one I can leave for a vacation or another venture while having confidence the thing is going to continue growing while I'm gone. As for GPS sync. Maybe the cellular guys were wrong the whole time, must be another Moto consipiracy and maybe mention that to everyone that developed 802.16d/e(WIMAX) including your own Alvarion engineers! ;) No GPS is not required, but it sure makes a lot of sense and is arguably 'proper' for a multi cell deployment. I predict this is one of those things that the novice wisp will someday either understand, moved on beyond wireless last mile, or stuck it out and trained their support dept. on how to 'put out fires' for as long as possible. Of course all of this is my opinion but I have to go now...hopfully was enough for everyone to chew on ;) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Brad Larson wrote: Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread was started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000 cpe threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed to be possible according to some posting on this topic!! And the funny part of it is, VL displaced one of the products mentioned...performance went up, truck rolls went down, and he sleeps better at night!! This thread reminds me of a competitor slinging mud 2 years ago saying we couldn't build a 3 tower network in 5 square miles to connect 2,400 buildings...Blah blah sync sync... LOL. We not only built that network but it's a prime example of how if you "KNOW WHAT YOU"RE DOING" and are "TRAINED AND CERTIFIED" the product works like a charm. And if a wisp is building a scaling voip/data network canopy is not such a great solution so the hassle is in the details. Brad -- Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Correct. Any medium used to deliver broadband can be broken. However, frankly due to the fewer points of failure we typically see less downtime on unlicensed wireless links than we do conventional LEC T1 circuits. Like many things it all comes down to the geographic area. Would you expect a hardline T1 or a wireless T1 to deliver better uptime in or near a construction site? Most SLA's I've read (and that we offer if required to do so) are largely without teeth. Sure if a client is down an entire day or days on end most SLA's require some form of credit, but if a client was down for that long wouldn't you offer the credit in some cases anyway? Clients that have little threshold for pain due to downtime will quickly realize they need redundancy. I love the prospects that claim they have a zero threshold for pain regarding downtime. Oh ok, well then you'll need to move all your stuff into a Co-Lo facility with multiple redundant power, HVAC, upstreams etc, etc. That typically is received with silence and they come back down to Earth. Bottom line is Internet is only going to become more important in everyday life. Five years ago loosing Internet access for a day wasn't the end of the world...today it can be, but those people know it and plan for it by having backups in place. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - Original Message - From: "Rich Comroe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >Products that are best effort [snip product name] >end up making guys like us look bad. I'm confused how can anyone do better than "best effort" in unlicensed spectrum, regardless of manufacturer? mks: I agree with you here Rich. I've always thought it silly to try to offer an SLA when using unlicensed gear. People do it all of the time though. Heck, it's silly with wires too, they get cut all of the time eh? grin. mks: Having said that, there are technologies that are allowed under the part-15 rules that are more or less robust than others. Full duplex radios that transmit on one channel and receive on another are really really hard to take offline. WiFi radios that must first have relatively clear air to transmit are also easy to take offline. mks: The current race out there, to which we're watching and arguing about with great gusto is to see who's technology is going to be the best long term. Right now, were all arguing about which technology is best. The truth of the matter is that they are all better than the other in the right conditions. What I did here might not work for you and what you do might not work for the next guy. That's part of why us consultants that are also wisps are so valuable, we get to see more real world stuff than most. mks: One thing I do know. I'll keep watching threads like this. I'll keep trying new toys. I'll keep making MY service better for my customers. I'll use the tools that work best today, for me. >There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day >getting a call saying they are getting something less than that. If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a licensed channel can accomplish that? mks: Too true! I just got a call from a gal that was upset that she was only uploading at 79k. Come to find out she was using FTP not a web based mechanism. Her speakeasy.net test per her at 750 down 1400 up. Sure I'd like to see it go even faster, but my God, what does she want for $40 per month? marlon Rich - Original Message - <> -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Certainly you can do committed rate business class services with unlicensed products. WMUX, Terabridge, Trango just to name a few. Are they interchangeable in application? Nope, they require you use the right product for the job at hand. What may work well on one project may not on the next. Interference typically isn't temporary...at least not around these parts! No, you need to engineer the link with enough forethought and available tools on hand to give yourself options in the event a link does begin to incur interference. In our experience the VL was erratic in its ability to consistently produce the same end result day in and day out. Alvarion, me and the third party client all knew before hand the site was very RF unfriendly. I visited the site personally to run surveys before any gear was deployed. We spent the better part of a month with Alvarion trying to get the VL to produce a consistent level of throughput at any level without success. Just as I began to believe we had it licked we would get another call from the client. The really frustrating part of all this is the throughput would vary depending on just how busy the other gear in the area was. The busiest times of day is when we realized the link really suffered. I felt obligated to share our VL results here because Marlon indicated he was looking for a business class product. VL is not that...at least not in our book. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >Products that are best effort [snip product name] >end up making guys like us look bad. I'm confused how can anyone do better than "best effort" in unlicensed spectrum, regardless of manufacturer? >There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day >getting a call saying they are getting something less than that. If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a licensed channel can accomplish that? Rich - Original Message - From: Brad Belton To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:17 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not produce the results we are after then we look at other products. We will not tie our hands to one brand. No reason to. Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on. Yes, CIR is what we sell not MIR. That may be a good thing for us or it may turn out to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to deliver. Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look bad. There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day getting a call saying they are getting something less than that. Expectations and end results are everything to us. We meet expectations or we'd rather not do it, part ways amiability and maintain our reputation. It's a small town! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:57 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of >the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, >but not for committed rate business class service. Agreed. But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't work well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset thing is that can be delivered. CIR service may need to be changed to MIR. In what cases is CIR really needed? And what areas of your business or network also prevent the CIR Full QOS guarantee from being realized? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived My thoughts exactly. If the VL had a mechanism to "tune out" noise and a few other tools (dual pol - dual band) that would enable the user avoid noise then it is possible there simply would not be a better PtMP LE product available today. Without those critical elements the VL is just not able to perform consistently in RF hostile environments. The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, but not for committed rate business class service. Best, Brad -Origi
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Jon, When discussing GPS, you continue to offer examples from the licensed world, which is about as relevant as trying to do an apples to apples comparisons of mobile licensed cellular service plans with UL fixed wireless. As I have said before (last week), licensed uses GPS due to the necessity of having to re-use a small amount of channel over and over again, cell after cell. That's not the case in the UL world, except perhaps for Canopy whose bandwidth availability is so low relative to the channel. Jon, you, me, the fence post and everyone else knows why Canopy -- alone in the entire UL 5GHz world -- requires GPS to scale, it's to keep from stepping all over itself. It is not even a debatable point. The recommendation is right there in Canopy white papers -- let me paraphrase: "Deploying Canopy? What to scale? Buy this $1,500 cluster management module for each cell! (P.S. Don't forget the $125 power supply.)" Seriously, saying Canopy's GPS (something you have to pay extra for even) is a value-added feature is like saying my car is special because it has tires. I have to hand it to Motorola though, they have convinced you that the one thing no other brand needs in UL, is something you have the privilege of paying extra for just to get your brand to work well in even modest scale in the first place. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I didn't make any 'claims' and as for 1,000 cpe, that's possible with wifi(although I'd hate to be one of the end-users). Some of the differences is how happy the customers are(reliability seems to play key here), whether they're business or res., how easy it is to have lower cost employees deploy the network(as opposed to me and other "qualified" or "certified" engineers that charge $10K's more/yr), and how tasked the support and management department is, etc. Things that factor into operating a real world wisp. My kind of business is one I can leave for a vacation or another venture while having confidence the thing is going to continue growing while I'm gone. As for GPS sync. Maybe the cellular guys were wrong the whole time, must be another Moto consipiracy and maybe mention that to everyone that developed 802.16d/e(WIMAX) including your own Alvarion engineers! ;) No GPS is not required, but it sure makes a lot of sense and is arguably 'proper' for a multi cell deployment. I predict this is one of those things that the novice wisp will someday either understand, moved on beyond wireless last mile, or stuck it out and trained their support dept. on how to 'put out fires' for as long as possible. Of course all of this is my opinion but I have to go now...hopfully was enough for everyone to chew on ;) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Brad Larson wrote: >Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably >never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread was >started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000 cpe >threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed to >be possible according to some posting on this topic!! And the funny part >of it is, VL displaced one of the products mentioned...performance went >up, truck rolls went down, and he sleeps better at night!! This thread >reminds me of a competitor slinging mud 2 years ago saying we couldn't >build a 3 tower network in 5 square miles to connect 2,400 >buildings...Blah blah sync sync... LOL. We not only built that >network but it's a prime example of how if you "KNOW WHAT YOU"RE DOING" >and are "TRAINED AND CERTIFIED" the product works like a charm. > >And if a wisp is building a scaling voip/data network canopy is not such >a great solution so the hassle is in the details. Brad > > > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of mal
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
- Original Message - From: "Rich Comroe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Products that are best effort [snip product name] end up making guys like us look bad. I'm confused how can anyone do better than "best effort" in unlicensed spectrum, regardless of manufacturer? mks: I agree with you here Rich. I've always thought it silly to try to offer an SLA when using unlicensed gear. People do it all of the time though. Heck, it's silly with wires too, they get cut all of the time eh? grin. mks: Having said that, there are technologies that are allowed under the part-15 rules that are more or less robust than others. Full duplex radios that transmit on one channel and receive on another are really really hard to take offline. WiFi radios that must first have relatively clear air to transmit are also easy to take offline. mks: The current race out there, to which we're watching and arguing about with great gusto is to see who's technology is going to be the best long term. Right now, were all arguing about which technology is best. The truth of the matter is that they are all better than the other in the right conditions. What I did here might not work for you and what you do might not work for the next guy. That's part of why us consultants that are also wisps are so valuable, we get to see more real world stuff than most. mks: One thing I do know. I'll keep watching threads like this. I'll keep trying new toys. I'll keep making MY service better for my customers. I'll use the tools that work best today, for me. There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day getting a call saying they are getting something less than that. If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a licensed channel can accomplish that? mks: Too true! I just got a call from a gal that was upset that she was only uploading at 79k. Come to find out she was using FTP not a web based mechanism. Her speakeasy.net test per her at 750 down 1400 up. Sure I'd like to see it go even faster, but my God, what does she want for $40 per month? marlon Rich - Original Message - <> -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
I didn't make any 'claims' and as for 1,000 cpe, that's possible with wifi(although I'd hate to be one of the end-users). Some of the differences is how happy the customers are(reliability seems to play key here), whether they're business or res., how easy it is to have lower cost employees deploy the network(as opposed to me and other "qualified" or "certified" engineers that charge $10K's more/yr), and how tasked the support and management department is, etc. Things that factor into operating a real world wisp. My kind of business is one I can leave for a vacation or another venture while having confidence the thing is going to continue growing while I'm gone. As for GPS sync. Maybe the cellular guys were wrong the whole time, must be another Moto consipiracy and maybe mention that to everyone that developed 802.16d/e(WIMAX) including your own Alvarion engineers! ;) No GPS is not required, but it sure makes a lot of sense and is arguably 'proper' for a multi cell deployment. I predict this is one of those things that the novice wisp will someday either understand, moved on beyond wireless last mile, or stuck it out and trained their support dept. on how to 'put out fires' for as long as possible. Of course all of this is my opinion but I have to go now...hopfully was enough for everyone to chew on ;) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Brad Larson wrote: Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread was started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000 cpe threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed to be possible according to some posting on this topic!! And the funny part of it is, VL displaced one of the products mentioned...performance went up, truck rolls went down, and he sleeps better at night!! This thread reminds me of a competitor slinging mud 2 years ago saying we couldn't build a 3 tower network in 5 square miles to connect 2,400 buildings...Blah blah sync sync... LOL. We not only built that network but it's a prime example of how if you "KNOW WHAT YOU"RE DOING" and are "TRAINED AND CERTIFIED" the product works like a charm. And if a wisp is building a scaling voip/data network canopy is not such a great solution so the hassle is in the details. Brad -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
>Products that are best effort [snip product name] >end up making guys like us look bad. I'm confused how can anyone do better than "best effort" in unlicensed spectrum, regardless of manufacturer? >There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day >getting a call saying they are getting something less than that. If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a licensed channel can accomplish that? Rich - Original Message - From: Brad Belton To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:17 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not produce the results we are after then we look at other products. We will not tie our hands to one brand. No reason to. Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on. Yes, CIR is what we sell not MIR. That may be a good thing for us or it may turn out to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to deliver. Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look bad. There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day getting a call saying they are getting something less than that. Expectations and end results are everything to us. We meet expectations or we'd rather not do it, part ways amiability and maintain our reputation. It's a small town! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:57 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of >the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, >but not for committed rate business class service. Agreed. But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't work well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset thing is that can be delivered. CIR service may need to be changed to MIR. In what cases is CIR really needed? And what areas of your business or network also prevent the CIR Full QOS guarantee from being realized? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived My thoughts exactly. If the VL had a mechanism to "tune out" noise and a few other tools (dual pol - dual band) that would enable the user avoid noise then it is possible there simply would not be a better PtMP LE product available today. Without those critical elements the VL is just not able to perform consistently in RF hostile environments. The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, but not for committed rate business class service. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the game
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not produce the results we are after then we look at other products. We will not tie our hands to one brand. No reason to. Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on. Yes, CIR is what we sell not MIR. That may be a good thing for us or it may turn out to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to deliver. Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look bad. There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day getting a call saying they are getting something less than that. Expectations and end results are everything to us. We meet expectations or we'd rather not do it, part ways amiability and maintain our reputation. It's a small town! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:57 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived >The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of >the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, >but not for committed rate business class service. Agreed. But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't work well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset thing is that can be delivered. CIR service may need to be changed to MIR. In what cases is CIR really needed? And what areas of your business or network also prevent the CIR Full QOS guarantee from being realized? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived My thoughts exactly. If the VL had a mechanism to "tune out" noise and a few other tools (dual pol - dual band) that would enable the user avoid noise then it is possible there simply would not be a better PtMP LE product available today. Without those critical elements the VL is just not able to perform consistently in RF hostile environments. The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, but not for committed rate business class service. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations. Only to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable. 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner. Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hello Tom, "Alvarion's strength is it empowers an operator to engineer a more durable link, based on antenna quality and flexibility." Antenna quality I'll give you. Alvarion uses MTi antennas which by most all accounts builds a quality product. Flexibility? Not a chance. No Dual Polarity + No Dual Band = NO FLEXIBILITY! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:53 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived marlon, I have to disagree, and state the opposite. I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be able to survive the noise, with better SNRs. The problem occurs when DSSS is not enough to get above the noise. When the noise is other OFDM or Wifi contention gear, possibly louder than your own signal, using CSMA/CA actually performs much better in the severe interference environments. The reason is TDD is guaranteed to transmit during the noisy period, some percentage of time. With CSMA/CA the radio waits for FREE time, or at minimum retransmits until it gets FREE spectrum. This can increase latency significantly, but it does reduce packet loss, which is more important. TDD w/ ARQ, can be even better, provided one has a high end radio, that can be engineered for both ARQ and optimal link quality. But not all ARQ radio can be optimized for best RSSI. I'd take 8 db of higher RSSI, than ARQ, because their is no need for ARQ, if you are adequately above the noise. Alvarion's strength is it empowers an operator to engineer a more durable link, based on antenna quality and flexibility. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Got it. Thanks. > > I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too > difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with > a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But > sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. > That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It > doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. > Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. > > My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever > collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't > many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are > other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision > avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. > > Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi > type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as > long as we can keep things that way. > > These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and > uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a > product is less important to me than having a product that can survive > some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. > > However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network > that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates > your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of > trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or > he doesn't. Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy > right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations. Only > to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes > unworkable. > > 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. Either > outright or in a lack of forethought manner. > > Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. Give > it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. > Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find > ourselves in. > > Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. > Why was it important for collocation then but not now? > > Hope you guys all had a great Christmas! > Marlon > (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales > (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services > 42846865 (icq)
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
lolyou continue to assert this is about Trango vs. Alvarion and it is far from it. You appear threatened by Trango with comments like this. I've said from day one we are results driven. If Trango produces the results we are after then by golly we'll use Trango. If Alvarion produces the results we are after than by golly we'll use Alvarion. Guys like you only see the world through one prism; the company they work for. I'll ask you again Patrick; do you believe Alvarion makes the best solution for every need? You can't honestly say yes, can you? I'll be the first to admit my company is far from perfect and we absolutely do not have the best product for every application. What is troubling is you are unable to say the same! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next! Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have something worth taking note about. Throw in dual band ability and now you're on the right track. As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a VL radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so. Sounds like fun! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual horizontal Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?). Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even considering the 10Mhz channel option. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Gino A. Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist Motorola is extremely conservative on > the spec sheet. "4.21 Mbps" Net typical" where you get that? I got > Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the > most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between > performance > and interference rejection. And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must > have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I > can > play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell > carriers rely on GPS ? > > Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels > > Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower > > > > Gino A. Villarini > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Patrick Leary > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > Jon, > > With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention > things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing > with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency > needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much > more spectrum to work with. > > Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL > efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the > fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to > keep it from stepping on itself. > > And speaking about "efficiency," even the Canopy Advantage is a very > inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but > Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to > 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical > over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well > over 1 mile. > > In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL > networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion > that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to > assert in fact. > > Patrick Leary > AVP WISP Markets > A
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Well, they didn't give Mel Gibson the benefit of the doubt. Why should we you? Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived ...okay, I went off the deep end there. It was wrong of me to insult the competition because I'm allowing myself to be baited. Sorry folks. Sorry Trango. Ghrr. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next! Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have something worth taking note about. Throw in dual band ability and now you're on the right track. As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a VL radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so. Sounds like fun! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual horizontal Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?). Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even considering the 10Mhz channel option. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Gino A. Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist Motorola is extremely conservative on > the spec sheet. "4.21 Mbps" Net typical" where you get that? I got > Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the > most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between > performance > and interference rejection. And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must > have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I > can > play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell > carriers rely on GPS ? > > Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels > > Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower > > > > Gino A. Villarini > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Patrick Leary > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > Jon, > > With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention > things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing > with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency > needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much > more spectrum to work with. > > Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL > efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the > fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to > keep it from stepping on itself. > > And speaking about "efficiency," even the Canopy Advantage is a very > inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but > Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to > 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical > over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well > over 1 mile. > > In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL > networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion > that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to > assert in fact. > > Patrick Leary > AVP WISP Markets > Alvarion, Inc. > o: 650.314.2628 > c: 760.580.0080 > Vonage: 650.641.1243 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Jon Langeler > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM > To: WISPA General List
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread was started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000 cpe threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed to be possible according to some posting on this topic!! And the funny part of it is, VL displaced one of the products mentioned...performance went up, truck rolls went down, and he sleeps better at night!! This thread reminds me of a competitor slinging mud 2 years ago saying we couldn't build a 3 tower network in 5 square miles to connect 2,400 buildings...Blah blah sync sync... LOL. We not only built that network but it's a prime example of how if you "KNOW WHAT YOU"RE DOING" and are "TRAINED AND CERTIFIED" the product works like a charm. And if a wisp is building a scaling voip/data network canopy is not such a great solution so the hassle is in the details. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:06 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon, if that's the type of product your looking for, I'll save you the hassle of looking (and you can come back to this post in 5-10 years to make your conclusions on my recommendation) because your best best is to go with canopy or wait until a 5GHz 802.16e solution comes out(not likely soon). If Alvarion would get an actual ENGINEER to debate about their RF technology compared to others on-list, that would be the day :-) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: > Got it. Thanks. > > I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too > difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything > with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for > collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't > follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went > with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when > it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without > sync'ing the AP's. > > My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever > collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there > aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, > when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't > have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy > price in performance. > > Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any > wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be > polling as long as we can keep things that way. > > These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability > and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% > out of a product is less important to me than having a product that > can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. > > However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a > network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap > locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That > seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network > designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck, I've even done > consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them > several choices for site locations. Only to have them pick something > completely different, and sometimes unworkable. > > 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. > Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner. > > Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. > Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of > token ring. Then we could optimize performance for any environment > that we find ourselves in. > > Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II > line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now? > > Hope you guys all had a great Christmas! > Marlon > (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales > (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services > 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.odessaoffice.com/wireless > www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam > > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Un
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
oh oh. This one's gonna be fun. I'll warn ya now Tom, this is nothing personal. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived marlon, I have to disagree, and state the opposite. I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be able to survive the noise, with better SNRs. OK, there's a problem here. Lets make sure we're talking the same acronyms and such. TDD = Time Division Duplex. In our case, this part really doesn't mean much of anything. DSSS = Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum, SNR = Signal to Noise Ratio. This is the one that you fine tune on a CB radio to get the his to go away. For these and many more kindly take advantage of work I did years ago: http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/definitions.htm The problem occurs when DSSS is not enough to get above the noise. This is a problem when using DSSS, FHSS, OFDM, FM or any other modulation scheme we're using today. When the noise is other OFDM OFDM is NOT DSSS or FHSS. It's Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing. "I totally don't know what that is but I want it!" roflol or Wifi contention gear, WiFi is an interoperability standard based on IEEE standards. Today WiFi can be either DSSS or OFDM, I'm not aware of any WiFi FHSS product. 802.11b is DSS, 802.11a and g are OFDM. possibly louder than your own signal, using CSMA/CA actually performs much better in the severe interference environments. Define better. No, I'm not trying to pull a Clinton here. If you want to compare DSS to FHSS then, yes in certain types of noisy conditions, DSS can overcome the noise by spreading it's data packets over a larger area. It's able to rebuild damaged data packets or to just ignore some times of noise that would cause an FHSS signal to back off and retransmit on a different freqency, causing a rise in latency and a drop in speed. A DSSS signal spreads the data over (in the WiFi example you site) 22 MHz of spectrum. An FHSS signal spreads that same data over 1 MHz, but it hops around interference. I remember seeing a couple of graphs years ago. They showed an ever increasing noise level and it's impact on DSSS and FHSS. The DSSS stayed at or near full speed longer than the FHSS but once the noise got too high it totally dropped off line. The FHSS system, on the other hand, showed the noise as an overall slowdown but kept on going long after that DSSS system rolled over and wet on it's self. I'm hearing mixed results about OFDM. Some say it works better yet in interference, some say it dies much sooner. I really don't know. It would be nice to see someone run all three systems in a lab so we could see the same tests. In fact it would be fun to see that same test with several proprietary systems too. If only I had more time and money! That's exactly the kind of tinkering that I live for! The reason is TDD is guaranteed to transmit during the noisy period, some percentage of time. Nope. Not true at all. Been there, done that. I have more than one T-shirt. It TOTALLY depends on the type of noise and it's levels in relation to your carrier to interference ratios (also known as SNR). If you have narrow band interference DSSS can (and OFDM should) work around it. It'll be able to recreate the missing data bits and deliver a good data packet. Or, if the noise is far enough off of the center frequency (the middle part of the 22 MHz wide channel) it'll likely just completely ignore the noise. Lets say, for example that you are running a WiFi based system and your customers radio is hitting your AP in the B mode with a -65 signal. WiFi radios need around a 15 dB c/i radio. So as long as your noise level was below -80 this system should work pretty well. If the noise hit -75 though I'd expect to see some service degredation. Canopy requires a roughly 3dB c/i ratio. It would still be working at a -69 dB noise floor. Hit -65 with the noise, and neither of them will work. With CSMA/CA the radio waits for FREE time, or at minimum retransmits until it gets FREE spectrum. This can increase latency significantly, but it does reduce packet loss, which is more important. Remember, CSMA/CA is WiFi That's the backoff mechanism that makes it so easy to co-locate so many systems in a confined area like an office or appartment complex. The problem o
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Marlon, if that's the type of product your looking for, I'll save you the hassle of looking (and you can come back to this post in 5-10 years to make your conclusions on my recommendation) because your best best is to go with canopy or wait until a 5GHz 802.16e solution comes out(not likely soon). If Alvarion would get an actual ENGINEER to debate about their RF technology compared to others on-list, that would be the day :-) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations. Only to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable. 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner. Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in. Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now? Hope you guys all had a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
...okay, I went off the deep end there. It was wrong of me to insult the competition because I'm allowing myself to be baited. Sorry folks. Sorry Trango. Ghrr. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next! Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have something worth taking note about. Throw in dual band ability and now you're on the right track. As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a VL radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so. Sounds like fun! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual horizontal Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?). Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even considering the 10Mhz channel option. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Gino A. Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist Motorola is extremely conservative on > the spec sheet. "4.21 Mbps" Net typical" where you get that? I got > Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the > most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between > performance > and interference rejection. And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must > have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I > can > play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell > carriers rely on GPS ? > > Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels > > Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower > > > > Gino A. Villarini > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Patrick Leary > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > Jon, > > With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention > things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing > with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency > needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much > more spectrum to work with. > > Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL > efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the > fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to > keep it from stepping on itself. > > And speaking about "efficiency," even the Canopy Advantage is a very > inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but > Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to > 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical > over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well > over 1 mile. > > In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL > networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion > that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to > assert in fact. > > Patrick Leary > AVP WISP Markets > Alvarion, Inc. > o: 650.314.2628 > c: 760.580.0080 > Vonage: 650.641.1243 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Jon Langeler > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular > > deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of > > that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS > capabl
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next! Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have something worth taking note about. Throw in dual band ability and now you're on the right track. As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a VL radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so. Sounds like fun! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual horizontal Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?). Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even considering the 10Mhz channel option. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Gino A. Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist Motorola is extremely conservative on > the spec sheet. "4.21 Mbps" Net typical" where you get that? I got > Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the > most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between > performance > and interference rejection. And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must > have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I > can > play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell > carriers rely on GPS ? > > Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels > > Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower > > > > Gino A. Villarini > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Patrick Leary > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > Jon, > > With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention > things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing > with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency > needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much > more spectrum to work with. > > Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL > efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the > fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to > keep it from stepping on itself. > > And speaking about "efficiency," even the Canopy Advantage is a very > inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but > Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to > 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical > over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well > over 1 mile. > > In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL > networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion > that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to > assert in fact. > > Patrick Leary > AVP WISP Markets > Alvarion, Inc. > o: 650.314.2628 > c: 760.580.0080 > Vonage: 650.641.1243 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Jon Langeler > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular > > deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of > > that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS > capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or > N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station > communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all > use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a > good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or "colocated" > deployment. > &g
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, but not for committed rate business class service. Agreed. But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't work well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset thing is that can be delivered. CIR service may need to be changed to MIR. In what cases is CIR really needed? And what areas of your business or network also prevent the CIR Full QOS guarantee from being realized? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived My thoughts exactly. If the VL had a mechanism to "tune out" noise and a few other tools (dual pol - dual band) that would enable the user avoid noise then it is possible there simply would not be a better PtMP LE product available today. Without those critical elements the VL is just not able to perform consistently in RF hostile environments. The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, but not for committed rate business class service. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations. Only to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable. 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner. Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in. Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now? Hope you guys all had a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte never... CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0 and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations can be made to wait while those stations wi
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
marlon, I have to disagree, and state the opposite. I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be able to survive the noise, with better SNRs. The problem occurs when DSSS is not enough to get above the noise. When the noise is other OFDM or Wifi contention gear, possibly louder than your own signal, using CSMA/CA actually performs much better in the severe interference environments. The reason is TDD is guaranteed to transmit during the noisy period, some percentage of time. With CSMA/CA the radio waits for FREE time, or at minimum retransmits until it gets FREE spectrum. This can increase latency significantly, but it does reduce packet loss, which is more important. TDD w/ ARQ, can be even better, provided one has a high end radio, that can be engineered for both ARQ and optimal link quality. But not all ARQ radio can be optimized for best RSSI. I'd take 8 db of higher RSSI, than ARQ, because their is no need for ARQ, if you are adequately above the noise. Alvarion's strength is it empowers an operator to engineer a more durable link, based on antenna quality and flexibility. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations. Only to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable. 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner. Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in. Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now? Hope you guys all had a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte never... CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0 and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as contention window duration, contention levels,
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have something worth taking note about. Throw in dual band ability and now you're on the right track. As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a VL radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so. Sounds like fun! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual horizontal Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?). Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even considering the 10Mhz channel option. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Gino A. Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist Motorola is extremely conservative on > the spec sheet. "4.21 Mbps" Net typical" where you get that? I got > Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the > most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between > performance > and interference rejection. And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must > have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I > can > play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell > carriers rely on GPS ? > > Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels > > Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower > > > > Gino A. Villarini > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Patrick Leary > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > Jon, > > With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention > things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing > with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency > needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much > more spectrum to work with. > > Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL > efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the > fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to > keep it from stepping on itself. > > And speaking about "efficiency," even the Canopy Advantage is a very > inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but > Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to > 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical > over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well > over 1 mile. > > In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL > networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion > that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to > assert in fact. > > Patrick Leary > AVP WISP Markets > Alvarion, Inc. > o: 650.314.2628 > c: 760.580.0080 > Vonage: 650.641.1243 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Jon Langeler > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular > > deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of > > that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS > capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or > N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station > communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all > use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a > good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or "colocated" > deployment. > > Jon Langeler > Michwave Tech. > > Tom DeReggi wrote: > >> Charles, >> >> Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, > >> what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day >> with all things considered. >> The value of consistent availability and right out of
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual horizontal Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?). Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even considering the 10Mhz channel option. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Gino A. Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist Motorola is extremely conservative on the spec sheet. "4.21 Mbps" Net typical" where you get that? I got Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between performance and interference rejection. And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I can play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell carriers rely on GPS ? Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Jon, With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much more spectrum to work with. Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to keep it from stepping on itself. And speaking about "efficiency," even the Canopy Advantage is a very inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well over 1 mile. In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to assert in fact. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or "colocated" deployment. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: Charles, Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day with all things considered. The value of consistent availability and right out of the box deployment is PRICELIST! This doesn't only save cost of installer labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition. I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck. I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being a stronger residential play. I recently have done a lot with War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, and great testing tools with things like Iperf BUILT-IN able to test Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops increase as the backbone mesh grows. Alvarion is also a great product for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots. Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new low price, is in its residential application. The difference between $185 and $285, is almost n
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
LOL, Yeah, I read that Patrick. Guess I'll have to see it to actually understand it fully. I think of it more like talking in a crowded room. The background noise makes it hard to talk. We can make up for that in several ways. One, what we usually do today, everyone keeps their voices down (max of 4 watts :-), we cup our hands over our ears (directionalizing our antennas), and when someone beside us is talking, we wait for them to stop before we start. Well, all it takes is one jerk in the room to start talking a little louder, then everyone around him has to crank up the volume. It keeps going till everyone is talking as loudly as they can. Then we've moved from the dining room to the bar room :-). Once in the bar room the old tricks just don't work as well as they used to. We can adjust to our little heart's content, but in the end, we just move to the talk when we want to talk model. I actually watched that with some amusement last week. Had a group of 7 or 8 people around a table in a back room. All drinking beer and eating pizza. The guys were talking about elk hunting and the gals were talking about some inane topic that I didn't pay attention to. grin It was funny. each group was talking clear across the table, each with it's own topics and each just talking over the other. Me, I was stuck in the middle of it and I couldn't track either conversation worth a hoot! I caught a little here and a little there, from both sides. I'd have happily downgraded to the ability to track at least one conversation correctly :-). Not picking on the product or the methodology. I'm just tossing some ideas against the wall to see what'll stick. If some of my ideas prove valuable, use them. If not, forget them! grin Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:00 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived This is my point Marlon, your "beef" is based on erroneous assumptions because you are still are talking like it is a basic "wifi" radio. It is not. Have you not read any of the posts about how the CSAM is able to be modified or adjustable? As I have said and I'll try to say it again, you can adjust many ways. The mechanism you are used with all your low end stuff to leaves you entirely at the mercy of others...you have no ability to make adjustments. With VL you do. Polling in VL would BE A DOWNGRADE. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Sorry for the double post...compoooter issues today I guess! -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
I don't think Marlon is asserting the VL is simply another "wifi" radio (even though it does use a wifi Atheros chip with CSAM), but more so that the VL offers no method for a user to avoid or overcome noise. Simply lowering modulation, slowing down and retransmitting over and over until the packet gets through is not an acceptable solution for committed rate business class service. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived This is my point Marlon, your "beef" is based on erroneous assumptions because you are still are talking like it is a basic "wifi" radio. It is not. Have you not read any of the posts about how the CSAM is able to be modified or adjustable? As I have said and I'll try to say it again, you can adjust many ways. The mechanism you are used with all your low end stuff to leaves you entirely at the mercy of others...you have no ability to make adjustments. With VL you do. Polling in VL would BE A DOWNGRADE. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations. Only to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable. 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner. Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in. Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now? Hope you guys all had a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam ----- Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte never... CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0 and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
I don't think Marlon is asserting the VL is simply another "wifi" radio (even though it does use a wifi Atheros chip with CSAM), but more so that the VL offers no method for a user to avoid or overcome noise. Simply lowering modulation, slowing down and retransmitting over and over until the packet gets through is not an acceptable solution for committed rate business class service. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived This is my point Marlon, your "beef" is based on erroneous assumptions because you are still are talking like it is a basic "wifi" radio. It is not. Have you not read any of the posts about how the CSAM is able to be modified or adjustable? As I have said and I'll try to say it again, you can adjust many ways. The mechanism you are used with all your low end stuff to leaves you entirely at the mercy of others...you have no ability to make adjustments. With VL you do. Polling in VL would BE A DOWNGRADE. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations. Only to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable. 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner. Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in. Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now? Hope you guys all had a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam ----- Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte never... CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0 and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
My thoughts exactly. If the VL had a mechanism to "tune out" noise and a few other tools (dual pol - dual band) that would enable the user avoid noise then it is possible there simply would not be a better PtMP LE product available today. Without those critical elements the VL is just not able to perform consistently in RF hostile environments. The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor, but not for committed rate business class service. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations. Only to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable. 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner. Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in. Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now? Hope you guys all had a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte never... CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0 and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:13 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got that part. I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English that a neophyte like me can understand, is this a polling or csmak product? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipme
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
This is my point Marlon, your "beef" is based on erroneous assumptions because you are still are talking like it is a basic "wifi" radio. It is not. Have you not read any of the posts about how the CSAM is able to be modified or adjustable? As I have said and I'll try to say it again, you can adjust many ways. The mechanism you are used with all your low end stuff to leaves you entirely at the mercy of others...you have no ability to make adjustments. With VL you do. Polling in VL would BE A DOWNGRADE. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations. Only to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable. 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner. Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in. Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now? Hope you guys all had a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte never... CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0 and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:13 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got that part. I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English that a neophyte like me can understand, is this
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Got it. Thanks. I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp. I find it too difficult to reject interference with a csma based product. Anything with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation. But sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync. It doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's. My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios. However, when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance. Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type products at 5 gig. All of our next gen products will be polling as long as we can keep things that way. These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and uptime. There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play. However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can. That seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught. Your network designer either gets it or he doesn't. Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations. Only to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable. 80 to 90% of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted. Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner. Here's an idea for you Patrick. Make this product work both ways. Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in. Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now? Hope you guys all had a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte never... CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0 and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:13 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got that part. I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English that a neophyte like me can understand, is this a polling or csmak product? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon, I'll answer this with a re-post of a September post that explains, in part, why VL is not just regular CSMA: <> -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ***
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
They're about the same. Pac does have the extra-heavy and extra long version, and I don't know if Equinox matches that one or not. +++ neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington email me at mark at neofast dot net 541-969-8200 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Grin Keep your coax tools to yourself sir! > > As for the pipe, I've used both the equinox and pac wireless. Pac has a > much stronger product, hands down. Unless the other guys finally caught > up. > > Marlon > (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales > (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services > 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.odessaoffice.com/wireless > www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:36 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > > > HAH, yeah, I was digging rather irritatedly around the van looking for a > > 10 > > mm wrench on Monday as well... same thing. > > > > I normally do not carry metric tools out on my install rig... > > > > Early in the year, I'm going to pick up some Equinox universal mounts. > > Same long arm, heavy pipe... > > > > No 10 mm nuts... and a LOT less expensive. > > > > I'll split a case with ya, if you want :) > > > > Might even drive up there and stick a few needles in coax, if you want :) > > > > ok ok, I won't. :) > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > +++ > > neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East > > Washington > > email me at mark at neofast dot net > > 541-969-8200 > > Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "WISPA General List" > > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > > > > >> Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of > >> Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at > >> PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. > >> They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to > >> carry > >> FOUR tools up the ladder. > >> > >> Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People > > have > >> the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep > >> screwing > >> with. > >> > >> If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough > >> things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange > > default > >> username/password combos! > >> > >> Marlon > >> (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales > >> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services > >> 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless > >> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam > >> > >> > >> > >> - Original Message - > >> From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: "WISPA General List" > >> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:43 PM > >> Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > >> > >> > >> The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to > >> figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to > >> manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone > >> complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? > >> > >> It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to > >> bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of > >> choice. > >> > >> Patrick Leary > >
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte never... CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0 and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:13 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Got that part. I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English that a neophyte like me can understand, is this a polling or csmak product? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon, I'll answer this with a re-post of a September post that explains, in part, why VL is not just regular CSMA: <> -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Mark, 48vdc is the poe ieee standard. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 7:51 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived The neg 48vDC is simply an option (standard 100-240 vAC is the other option) for powering of the rack mounted chassis. In the telecom space it's very common that folks have racks powered that way. The CPE's themselves are not 48vDC. On the CPE 54 vDC is sent via PoE up to the ODU from the IDU. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:38 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Patrick... I find the 48V power thing a HUGE problem. almost every site I have now is 12V powered... +++ neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington email me at mark at neofast dot net 541-969-8200 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:09 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon, You say "most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them..." In response to that reality we created a version of the VL AU for rural markets. We came to realize that the cost of a regular of VL AU where likely user counts are low simply was not economical. So we came up with the AUS. Three VL sectors using the AUS will support 75 users. An AUS (list of $2,595) has a limit of 25 attachments, but it can be upgraded if the demographics will support it; it is otherwise no different from a regular VL AU. Three AUS sectors will cost you about $6k, so about 2.4x your more modest three sector arrangement. The install will be easier, so that will make up a little (unless you don't count your time as a cost). But that will also support about 100mbps net so you can figure the math in terms of what can be delivered to subs at your chosen oversubscription. And you know it will do that at range LOS since the CPE has an integrated 21dBi MTI. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived It's much closer Patrick. That's for sure. Let run some numbers though. Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap: $450ish. Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges up to 10 miles. 1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles. Sector antenna, $400. Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and antenna. This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily. If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, battery backup, switch, cables etc. If we're lucky that'll even include backhaul. For CPE the cost is gonna be around: 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good ones from PacWireless) $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot) Misc. nuts and bolts $20. We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor. Connectorized version, $180ish 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones)) Mount, $12 Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20 Cable, $10 to $20. This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done. Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too. But I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural areas. Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them. Many are under 10. Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100. Last year we installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs. This with basically no marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition. Per customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive services. Our network now spa
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Grin Keep your coax tools to yourself sir! As for the pipe, I've used both the equinox and pac wireless. Pac has a much stronger product, hands down. Unless the other guys finally caught up. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived HAH, yeah, I was digging rather irritatedly around the van looking for a 10 mm wrench on Monday as well... same thing. I normally do not carry metric tools out on my install rig... Early in the year, I'm going to pick up some Equinox universal mounts. Same long arm, heavy pipe... No 10 mm nuts... and a LOT less expensive. I'll split a case with ya, if you want :) Might even drive up there and stick a few needles in coax, if you want :) ok ok, I won't. :) Mark +++ neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington email me at mark at neofast dot net 541-969-8200 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to carry FOUR tools up the ladder. Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing with. If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange default username/password combos! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:43 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of choice. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Got that part. I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English that a neophyte like me can understand, is this a polling or csmak product? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon, I'll answer this with a re-post of a September post that explains, in part, why VL is not just regular CSMA: <> -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hi Gino, Before I get to where Motorola says what I said, you said: "Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels." That's no problem and would be done using 6 sixty degree AU's using 10MHz channels and the net capacity of that cell would be just about 100mbps net, which is about 15% more capacity than your Canopy Advantage cell's 84mbps net. Now on to your other parts where you fairly question where I got my Motorola numbers. I ain't making this stuff up: Here's the 14mbps to 1 mile part in the spec: http://motorola.canopywireless.com/products/specshome.php (Of course, you can buy range extenders to compensate for that poor out-of-the-box range. What's that, another $80 bucks or so?) And the part that says 4.25mbps (I did not say 4.21) is not, my mistake, reported on a spec sheet, but rather on Motorola's "Motorola Canopy, Advantage Wireless Broadband Platform - Voice over IP (VoIP) over Canopy Advantage Platform" whitepaper, dated February 7, 2006 from page 11, Table 1, under the "Findings" section. The study and data collected and reported was performed by independent third party consulting firm West Monroe Partners. Here is the relevant excerpt: ++ ...The results show that Canopy platform hardware, when updated to the software release 7.2.9 and being driven by a Canopy Advantage platform AP will provide nearly identical performance to the newer Canopy Advantage Subscriber Modules. The table below shows an average score over five separate tests for both throughput and response time. PlatformThroughput Avg. (Mbps) Response Time Avg.(s) Advantage 4.251 1.7526 Canopy 4.294 1.7568 Table 1: Hardware Differences ++ I see you are also beating the "GPS is a must have for cellular deployment" drum. Is that the latest Canopy mantra? And you are right, if a product: - uses licensed band frequencies where the operator only has access to a small channel range Or it is an unlicensed product that: - is always talking, - does not have ATPC, - uses 60 degree CPE and - has a low amount of capacity to begin with Then you must have GPS in a scaled network to keep from destroying yourself. We know all about GPS Gino, we've had it for the required products licensed and unlicensed long before there ever was a Canopy and it has been available for Alvarion's UL hoppers from day 1 (FCC just would not permit it in the US originally). BreezeACCESS VL does not require it to scale in the UL bands and BreezeACCESS VL does not need GPS to keep from stepping on itself. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:50 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist Motorola is extremely conservative on the spec sheet. "4.21 Mbps" Net typical" where you get that? I got Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between performance and interference rejection. And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I can play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell carriers rely on GPS ? Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Jon, With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much more spectrum to work with. Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to keep it from stepping on itself. And speaking about "efficiency," even the Canopy Advantage is a very inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist Motorola is extremely conservative on the spec sheet. "4.21 Mbps" Net typical" where you get that? I got Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between performance and interference rejection. And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I can play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell carriers rely on GPS ? Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Jon, With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much more spectrum to work with. Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to keep it from stepping on itself. And speaking about "efficiency," even the Canopy Advantage is a very inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well over 1 mile. In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to assert in fact. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or "colocated" deployment. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: > Charles, > > Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, > what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day > with all things considered. > The value of consistent availability and right out of the box > deployment is PRICELIST! This doesn't only save cost of installer > labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition. > > I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck. > I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being > a stronger residential play. I recently have done a lot with > War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because > I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, > and great testing tools with things like Iperf BUILT-IN able to test > Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops > increase as the backbone mesh grows. Alvarion is also a great product > for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have > a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots. > Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new > low price, is in its residential application. The difference between > $185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in > operations. The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is > unmatched. What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in > using subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time > to make sure they get the best signal. With my other gear, its such a > pain to get best signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do > installs with empl
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
And I can assure you they don't leak. The secret to having your installers get 3 installs done per day is that cable. As a rule of thumb, 98% of the installs should be done in such a way that that 60ft of cable is enough to get inside to the router-If you have a guy running hundreds of feet of cable on each job they will take all day and they won't get 3 installs done. Factory terminated means I never have to worry about the installers ability to properly ground the shield on the cable on the roof. (or if he "missed" it). I know a lot of WISP don't even bother to use a properly shielded cable but we think it's important. It all adds up to $$$ Marty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Albert Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is only eight conductors. When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. Happy Holidays! Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. **
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
...in fact, I just remembered an excellent example. In the Monterey, CA area there's a VL deployment of over 2,200 CPE in about 3 or 4 square miles from a handfuls of closely co-located cells. Our engineers designed it and it provides over 99% actual coverage of the homes within the cells and the adjacent cells don't interfere. I mean come on, for years people did and still do 802.11b co-located cells with only three non-overlapping channels to play with (in the U.S.). VL, in 5.8GHz alone and by using the 10MHz channel options (which will deliver 16mbps net per sector) can manage lots of non-overlapping co-location even with the ATPC de-activated. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 8:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Jon, With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much more spectrum to work with. Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to keep it from stepping on itself. And speaking about "efficiency," even the Canopy Advantage is a very inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well over 1 mile. In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to assert in fact. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or "colocated" deployment. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: > Charles, > > Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, > what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day > with all things considered. > The value of consistent availability and right out of the box > deployment is PRICELIST! This doesn't only save cost of installer > labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition. > > I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck. > I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being > a stronger residential play. I recently have done a lot with > War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because > I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, > and great testing tools with things like Iperf BUILT-IN able to test > Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops > increase as the backbone mesh grows. Alvarion is also a great product > for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have > a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots. > Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new > low price, is in its residential application. The difference between > $185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in > operations. The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is > unmatched. What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in > using subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time > to make sure they get the best signal. With my other gear, its such a > pain to get best signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do > installs with
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Jon, With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much more spectrum to work with. Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to keep it from stepping on itself. And speaking about "efficiency," even the Canopy Advantage is a very inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well over 1 mile. In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to assert in fact. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or "colocated" deployment. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: > Charles, > > Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, > what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day > with all things considered. > The value of consistent availability and right out of the box > deployment is PRICELIST! This doesn't only save cost of installer > labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition. > > I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck. > I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being > a stronger residential play. I recently have done a lot with > War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because > I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, > and great testing tools with things like Iperf BUILT-IN able to test > Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops > increase as the backbone mesh grows. Alvarion is also a great product > for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have > a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots. > Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new > low price, is in its residential application. The difference between > $185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in > operations. The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is > unmatched. What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in > using subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time > to make sure they get the best signal. With my other gear, its such a > pain to get best signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do > installs with employees by the hour, so their income did not deter > them from doing their best job. I gladly pay $100 more for a complete > ready to go product. The only thing that keeps me from going 100% > Alvarion for residential is that, I already have 100 APs installed of > another manufacturer, and I need to focus on revenue not re-build > out. Its not just the cost to replace the AP, its the cost to replace > the consumers without downtime, all at once, when there is little free > spectrum left to just install a new AP. To install a new AP, and > existing AP must be removed first, in many cases. From a > performance/reliabilty point of view, there is nothing wrong with the > gear I previously preferred to use, but from an operations and > installation point of view, my operations can scale much easier using > the VL. Low marging residential is where that matters most. Its > important to be able to have consistent install time and meet > schedu
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or "colocated" deployment. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: Charles, Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day with all things considered. The value of consistent availability and right out of the box deployment is PRICELIST! This doesn't only save cost of installer labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition. I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck. I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being a stronger residential play. I recently have done a lot with War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, and great testing tools with things like Iperf BUILT-IN able to test Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops increase as the backbone mesh grows. Alvarion is also a great product for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots. Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new low price, is in its residential application. The difference between $185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in operations. The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is unmatched. What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in using subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time to make sure they get the best signal. With my other gear, its such a pain to get best signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do installs with employees by the hour, so their income did not deter them from doing their best job. I gladly pay $100 more for a complete ready to go product. The only thing that keeps me from going 100% Alvarion for residential is that, I already have 100 APs installed of another manufacturer, and I need to focus on revenue not re-build out. Its not just the cost to replace the AP, its the cost to replace the consumers without downtime, all at once, when there is little free spectrum left to just install a new AP. To install a new AP, and existing AP must be removed first, in many cases. From a performance/reliabilty point of view, there is nothing wrong with the gear I previously preferred to use, but from an operations and installation point of view, my operations can scale much easier using the VL. Low marging residential is where that matters most. Its important to be able to have consistent install time and meet schedules. The other day I ran out of pigtail. The other day I ran out of thin thread stand offs. The other day I ran out of J-Arms. The other day I ran out of antennas that came with mounts that support 2-3/8" pole. Everyday there is a barrier that delays operations. Sure an easy barrier to fix, but still a delay. Instead of focussing on sales, I'm focusing on making sure I have enough Gold standoffs in stock (5 cent parts). There is something to be said for what Alvarion has offered through the Commnet program, probably one of the strongest value propositions offered to date. Its going to really make the competition work. Just my 2 cents. The competitions, just better hope that Alvarion doesn't offer an AP trade-up program, to help conversion. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
The neg 48vDC is simply an option (standard 100-240 vAC is the other option) for powering of the rack mounted chassis. In the telecom space it's very common that folks have racks powered that way. The CPE's themselves are not 48vDC. On the CPE 54 vDC is sent via PoE up to the ODU from the IDU. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:38 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Patrick... I find the 48V power thing a HUGE problem. almost every site I have now is 12V powered... +++ neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington email me at mark at neofast dot net 541-969-8200 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:09 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Marlon, > > You say "most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them..." In > response to that reality we created a version of the VL AU for rural > markets. We came to realize that the cost of a regular of VL AU where > likely user counts are low simply was not economical. So we came up with > the AUS. Three VL sectors using the AUS will support 75 users. An AUS > (list of $2,595) has a limit of 25 attachments, but it can be upgraded > if the demographics will support it; it is otherwise no different from a > regular VL AU. Three AUS sectors will cost you about $6k, so about 2.4x > your more modest three sector arrangement. The install will be easier, > so that will make up a little (unless you don't count your time as a > cost). But that will also support about 100mbps net so you can figure > the math in terms of what can be delivered to subs at your chosen > oversubscription. And you know it will do that at range LOS since the > CPE has an integrated 21dBi MTI. > > Patrick Leary > AVP WISP Markets > Alvarion, Inc. > o: 650.314.2628 > c: 760.580.0080 > Vonage: 650.641.1243 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:55 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > It's much closer Patrick. That's for sure. > > Let run some numbers though. > > Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap: > $450ish. Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges > up > to 10 miles. 1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles. > Sector antenna, $400. > Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and > antenna. > This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily. > If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, > battery > backup, switch, cables etc. If we're lucky that'll even include > backhaul. > > For CPE the cost is gonna be around: > 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish > 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish > $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good > ones > from PacWireless) > $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot) > Misc. nuts and bolts $20. > We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor. > > Connectorized version, $180ish > 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast > magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones)) > Mount, $12 > Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20 > Cable, $10 to $20. > > This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done. > > Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too. But > > I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the > above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural > areas. > > Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them. Many are under 10. > Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100. Last year we > > installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were > upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs. This with > basically no > marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition. Per > customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive > services. > > Our network now spans around 6000 square miles. It's taken over 20 > sites > with nearly 30 ap's to do this. Our growth potential is really good. > But > not in all ar
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Brad, you are right on this. I was in the network cabling business for years and it is not 568A or B. And as point of fact, there is no 568-B2 pin out. 568 B2 refers to the system of "category" rankings of the twisted pair cable itself. So, as you note, the pin out is some standard I am not familiar with either. Such is the risks of having corporate headquarters in Israel -- an accepted standard there may not be in use here. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:04 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Albert, Can you point me to a URL describing the 586-B2 color code? I've searched for a minute or two, but so far everything comes up with the oranges and greens in the 1,2,3 and 6 pin locations. Even if there is a 568-B2 color code why use that color code when the rest of the world uses basic 568-A or 568-B? I think you know as well as I do the design of the weatherproof boot was an oversight. The design team simply took the dimension of a standard RJ45 plug and used that for their ID of the weather seal design. The oversight was the corners of the RJ45 plug are obviously beyond the ID rendering the connector unable to pass through. No, I don't think anyone is going to bite off that a weather seal with a 1mm larger ID is going to jeopardize the effectiveness of the seal. Pathetic attempt to cover a purely obvious design oversight...lol Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Albert Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 5:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is only eight conductors. When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. Happy Holidays! Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://list
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Patrick... I find the 48V power thing a HUGE problem. almost every site I have now is 12V powered... +++ neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington email me at mark at neofast dot net 541-969-8200 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:09 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Marlon, > > You say "most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them..." In > response to that reality we created a version of the VL AU for rural > markets. We came to realize that the cost of a regular of VL AU where > likely user counts are low simply was not economical. So we came up with > the AUS. Three VL sectors using the AUS will support 75 users. An AUS > (list of $2,595) has a limit of 25 attachments, but it can be upgraded > if the demographics will support it; it is otherwise no different from a > regular VL AU. Three AUS sectors will cost you about $6k, so about 2.4x > your more modest three sector arrangement. The install will be easier, > so that will make up a little (unless you don't count your time as a > cost). But that will also support about 100mbps net so you can figure > the math in terms of what can be delivered to subs at your chosen > oversubscription. And you know it will do that at range LOS since the > CPE has an integrated 21dBi MTI. > > Patrick Leary > AVP WISP Markets > Alvarion, Inc. > o: 650.314.2628 > c: 760.580.0080 > Vonage: 650.641.1243 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:55 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > It's much closer Patrick. That's for sure. > > Let run some numbers though. > > Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap: > $450ish. Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges > up > to 10 miles. 1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles. > Sector antenna, $400. > Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and > antenna. > This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily. > If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, > battery > backup, switch, cables etc. If we're lucky that'll even include > backhaul. > > For CPE the cost is gonna be around: > 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish > 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish > $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good > ones > from PacWireless) > $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot) > Misc. nuts and bolts $20. > We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor. > > Connectorized version, $180ish > 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast > magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones)) > Mount, $12 > Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20 > Cable, $10 to $20. > > This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done. > > Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too. But > > I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the > above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural > areas. > > Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them. Many are under 10. > Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100. Last year we > > installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were > upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs. This with > basically no > marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition. Per > customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive > services. > > Our network now spans around 6000 square miles. It's taken over 20 > sites > with nearly 30 ap's to do this. Our growth potential is really good. > But > not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't > be > any more customers coming. > > We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear. Today > > we're using Trango. $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out). > > They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the > box. > Great security and flexibility. > > Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though. I > want > to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with > > enough growth to keep me in the program
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
HAH, yeah, I was digging rather irritatedly around the van looking for a 10 mm wrench on Monday as well... same thing. I normally do not carry metric tools out on my install rig... Early in the year, I'm going to pick up some Equinox universal mounts. Same long arm, heavy pipe... No 10 mm nuts... and a LOT less expensive. I'll split a case with ya, if you want :) Might even drive up there and stick a few needles in coax, if you want :) ok ok, I won't. :) Mark +++ neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington email me at mark at neofast dot net 541-969-8200 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of > Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at > PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. > They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to carry > FOUR tools up the ladder. > > Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People have > the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing > with. > > If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough > things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange default > username/password combos! > > Marlon > (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales > (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services > 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.odessaoffice.com/wireless > www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam > > > > - Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:43 PM > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > > The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to > figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to > manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone > complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? > > It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to > bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of > choice. > > Patrick Leary > AVP WISP Markets > Alvarion, Inc. > o: 650.314.2628 > c: 760.580.0080 > Vonage: 650.641.1243 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Brad Belton > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM > To: 'WISPA General List' > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin > configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 > connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter > too > small! > > When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin > color > code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? > > Best, > > > Brad > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Patrick Leary > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought > there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. > That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not > require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, > connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. > > So what's the impact overall to you business model under the > AlvarionCOMNET program? > > Pat > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Marty Dougherty > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM > To: 'WISPA General List' > Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > > Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program > yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as > before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still > INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (6
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Can anyone else hear the axe grinding in the background.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 7:04 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Albert, Can you point me to a URL describing the 586-B2 color code? I've searched for a minute or two, but so far everything comes up with the oranges and greens in the 1,2,3 and 6 pin locations. Even if there is a 568-B2 color code why use that color code when the rest of the world uses basic 568-A or 568-B? I think you know as well as I do the design of the weatherproof boot was an oversight. The design team simply took the dimension of a standard RJ45 plug and used that for their ID of the weather seal design. The oversight was the corners of the RJ45 plug are obviously beyond the ID rendering the connector unable to pass through. No, I don't think anyone is going to bite off that a weather seal with a 1mm larger ID is going to jeopardize the effectiveness of the seal. Pathetic attempt to cover a purely obvious design oversight...lol Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Albert Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 5:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is only eight conductors. When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. Happy Holidays! Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Well, hello Patrick and Merry Christmas! Yes, the gaul of me to insist a client gets what he pays for. Just what am I thinking! lol Bottom line is as you know the client wasn't happy with the VL product as it wasn't able to keep up with the client demands. I'm sorry that's what it came to, but consider the client really didn't care what the brand of the "gear" was they just wanted the circuit to work. Square peg & round hole dilemma. You had the square peg and the client had a round hole. Just like when we sat around the table and discussed; there is no one product or brand that will meet every need. I know you're a company man and I applaud that, but do you really believe Alvarion makes the best product for every need? It is important to note I've always maintained Alvarion makes a quality product...never said otherwise. The issue I have with VL is it is not a committed rate business class product. The referrals you provided me have told me the same. Best effort...oh ya, it screams, but put a client that demands a committed rate plan and it just won't do it consistently in unfriendly RF environments. Your own Tech Support will confirm this. The proof is in the end result...if the VL could have done the job it would still be there doing it! Keep in mind who took the beating on this. Certainly not Alvarion. My company reputation was who took it on the chin with the doctors, not you or anyone else. Only because we have a nearly flawless reputation in the local medical industry did we even get a second chance to make it right. Try to have a Merry Christmas Patrick. Don't let a little criticism get to you so much. Instead, try listening to the critiques every so often. You might just find a couple good ideas that just might improve your product. Let me give you a couple hints: (1) Dual Polarity via software (2) Dual Band (3) RX Threshold (I know, a stretch) (4) Improved weather seal that allows a RJ45 to pass through (5) Incorporate standardized 568-A or 568-B color codes More later, but I have a few too many festive Christmas Parties laced with Eggnog calling me right now. Maybe I should wrap up some Eggnog and send it your way? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of choice. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installer
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hello Albert, Can you point me to a URL describing the 586-B2 color code? I've searched for a minute or two, but so far everything comes up with the oranges and greens in the 1,2,3 and 6 pin locations. Even if there is a 568-B2 color code why use that color code when the rest of the world uses basic 568-A or 568-B? I think you know as well as I do the design of the weatherproof boot was an oversight. The design team simply took the dimension of a standard RJ45 plug and used that for their ID of the weather seal design. The oversight was the corners of the RJ45 plug are obviously beyond the ID rendering the connector unable to pass through. No, I don't think anyone is going to bite off that a weather seal with a 1mm larger ID is going to jeopardize the effectiveness of the seal. Pathetic attempt to cover a purely obvious design oversight...lol Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Albert Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 5:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is only eight conductors. When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. Happy Holidays! Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(42). T
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hi Brad, The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is only eight conductors. When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. Happy Holidays! Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp M
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Marlon, You say "most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them..." In response to that reality we created a version of the VL AU for rural markets. We came to realize that the cost of a regular of VL AU where likely user counts are low simply was not economical. So we came up with the AUS. Three VL sectors using the AUS will support 75 users. An AUS (list of $2,595) has a limit of 25 attachments, but it can be upgraded if the demographics will support it; it is otherwise no different from a regular VL AU. Three AUS sectors will cost you about $6k, so about 2.4x your more modest three sector arrangement. The install will be easier, so that will make up a little (unless you don't count your time as a cost). But that will also support about 100mbps net so you can figure the math in terms of what can be delivered to subs at your chosen oversubscription. And you know it will do that at range LOS since the CPE has an integrated 21dBi MTI. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived It's much closer Patrick. That's for sure. Let run some numbers though. Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap: $450ish. Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges up to 10 miles. 1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles. Sector antenna, $400. Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and antenna. This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily. If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, battery backup, switch, cables etc. If we're lucky that'll even include backhaul. For CPE the cost is gonna be around: 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good ones from PacWireless) $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot) Misc. nuts and bolts $20. We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor. Connectorized version, $180ish 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones)) Mount, $12 Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20 Cable, $10 to $20. This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done. Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too. But I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural areas. Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them. Many are under 10. Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100. Last year we installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs. This with basically no marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition. Per customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive services. Our network now spans around 6000 square miles. It's taken over 20 sites with nearly 30 ap's to do this. Our growth potential is really good. But not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't be any more customers coming. We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear. Today we're using Trango. $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out). They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the box. Great security and flexibility. Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though. I want to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with enough growth to keep me in the program though. Even with resi. customers tossed in. If I were in Spokane, Seattle, Yakima etc. it would be a no brainer for me. The interference robustness, the scalability, the upgradeability etc. all make this a much more cut and dried decision. Especially the inference issues. I look at what we fight with out here with relatively few alien devices in the air. How guys like Forbes keep their customers running is a mystery to me. The manpower overhead has to be a killer. How do those numbers compare with a similar VL solution Help me find a way to justify the big boy toys. Trust me, the idea that I'd not need to do any work on my network appeals to me more and more with every new customer. But we're still taking care of things with 1.75 people and I spend an average of 25% to 30% of my day on these lists and other WISPA type duties so I probably really only count for a 3/4 time person. If I'd totally automate my billing, get rid of my time on the lists and forward the office calls to my
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
- Original Message - From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to carry FOUR tools up the ladder. Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing with. If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange default username/password combos! BINGO, we found this out yesterday and hope that this is a temporary thing. Hope fully Ben is reading this.. Not a good thing to change. roflol He's reading it now! heheheheh Believe me, he got an ear full yesterday! George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to carry FOUR tools up the ladder. Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing with. If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange default username/password combos! BINGO, we found this out yesterday and hope that this is a temporary thing. Hope fully Ben is reading this.. Not a good thing to change. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of Alvarion I do have to side with him on this. I just called Ben Moore at PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things. Now I have to carry FOUR tools up the ladder. Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm? Those are the same size People have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing with. If there's a standard out there, please stick with it. We have enough things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange default username/password combos! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:43 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of choice. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(42). **
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Brad, What you have hit right on the nose, is that the profile of a business prospect is changing. Its no longer good enough to offer 1 and 2 mbps services. WISPs are most competitive offering 5 and 10 mbps services. That changes what gear and topologies that will be appropriate for the future. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:21 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Tom, Just speaking from first hand experience and the experiences of the references Alvarion gave me. Nothing more. The VL gear is a great product for a "best effort" solution, but not a committed rate business class service. Two very different animals. Again, my post was only because Marlon indicated he intended to use the VL gear for a business class rollout. I just wanted to give him a heads up, that's all. I do believe Alvarion's move to lower the price on the VL gear was to put it within the reach of the market the product could best perform. The VL gear does fly on "bursty - up to" traffic. It is amazing when it works, but it isn't able to maintain that level of service 24x7. It's like the VL flys when it can and then holds off looking for clean air time then flys again. This is perfectly fine for 99% of the residential requirements, but doesn't cut it for a business that is pushing and pulling 5Mbps+ FDX 12hrs a day. In contrast a Trango M5830 will push and pull 4.5Mbps FDX or 8-9Mbps HDX all day long regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Brad, I'm not sure that is a fair statement. I agree, TDD/DSSS/Pol Diversity solutions can tackle that noise better, one of the reasons Trango is still the only clear choice for a good number of my cell sites. But there are many reasons WISPs are making the move to OFDM. Alvarion handles OFDM as well if not better than other OFDM solutions. If we are comparing apples to apples (OFDM to OFDM) Alvarion has many built in features to help guarantee QOS for high end business compared to other OFDM solutions. If OFDM is an Option for the WISP, Alvarion is as good an option as anyone else for the job. I do not agree that Alvarions move to go after residential market negates their quality for business markets. Residential markets will simply sell higher volume of CPEs, allowing a lower sale cost. For me the distinguishing factor in available OFDM gear is Ease out of the box versus Built-in testing tools and flexibility. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:11 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential "best effort" solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: "A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs." We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Right on! Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. That's what I plan on using. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
be proportional to the distance from the AU of the farthest SU served by it. The Cell Distance Mode parameter in the AU defines the method of computing distances. When set to Manual, the Maximum Cell Distance parameter should be configured with the estimated distance of the farthest SU served by the AU. When set to Automatic, the AU uses a special algorithm to estimate its distance from each of the SUs it serves, determine which SU is located the farthest and use the estimated distance of the farthest SU as the maximum cell distance. The value of the maximum cell distance parameter (either computed or configured manually) is transmitted in the beacon messages to all SUs served by the AU, and is used by all units to calculate the size of the time slot, that must be the same for all units in the same sector. When the Per SU Distance Learning option is enabled, the AU uses the re-association message to send to each SU its estimated distance from the AU. The per-SU distance is used to calculate the ACK timeout to be used by the SU. When the Per SU Distance Learning option is disabled (or if it cannot be used because the SU uses a previous SW version that does not support this feature), the SU will use the maximum cell distance to calculate the ACK timeout. The AU always uses the maximum cell distance to calculate the ACK timeout. It should be noted that if the size of the time slot used by all units is adapted to the distance of the farthest unit, then no unit will have an advantage when competing for services. However, this reduces the overall achievable throughput of the cell. In certain situations, the operator may decide to improve the overall throughput by reducing the slot size below the value required for full fairness. This means that when there is competition for bandwidth, the back-off algorithm will give an advantage to SUs that are located closer to the AU. The Cell Distance Parameters menu includes the following parameters: fairness factor, per SU distance learning, show cell distance parameters. * Arbitration Inter-Frame Spacing feature * Max association feature * Wireless Link Trap Threshold feature: defines the threshold for the wireless quality trap, indicating that the quality of the wireless link has dropped below (on trap) or has increased above (off trap) the specified threshold. The Wireless Link Trap Threshold is in percentage of retransmissions, and the allowed range is from 1 to 100 (%). The default is 30 (%). * Lost Beacons Transmission Watchdog Threshold feature: When it is unable to send beacon frames for a predetermined period of time, such as in the case of interferences, the AU resets itself. The Lost Beacons Transmission Threshold parameter represents the number of consecutive lost beacons after which the unit will reset itself. The range for this parameter is 100 - 1000 or 0. When the parameter is set to 0, this feature is disabled, i.e. internal refresh will never be performed. The default value is 218. * Disassociate (AU only) feature: enables disassociating all SUs associated with the AU or a selected SU. This feature is useful during configuration changes, enabling to force the SU(s) to re-initiate the association process, including the search for the best AU (or a preferred AU) using the Best AU process, without performing a full reset. The Disassociate submenu includes two options: Disassociate All SUs, Disassociate SU By MAC Address: to disassociate a selected SU. * Configurable Minimum and Maximum Contention Windows (The BreezeACCESS VL system uses a special mechanism based on detecting the presence of a carrier signal and analyzing the information contained in the transmissions of the AU to estimate the activity of other SUs served by the AU.) The available values are 0, 7, 15, 31, 63, 127, 255, 511 and 1023. A value of 0 means that the contention window algorithm is not used and that the unit will attempt to access the medium immediately after a time equal to DIFS. The default min. value is 15. The default max. is 1023. * Advanced MIR/CIR (controlled by both the SU and AU) with special configurable graceful degradation algorithm ensuring that the degradation of performance for each individual SU is proportional to its CIR. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived OK then, Patrick, Ed, whoever, is the VL a CSMAK based product like WiFi or a polling based product like Trango? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of choice. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin configuration. Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal! Just about a millimeter too small! When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated. That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable, connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. So what's the impact overall to you business model under the AlvarionCOMNET program? Pat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a bad connector later. We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program to other products. (Patrick...) Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp M
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Brad, This is not something for which "opinion" has a place. There are facts here and you are asserting things about us that simply false. I personally conceived, wrote and pitched every word, idea, concept, and crossed t of the AlvarionCOMNET program. Its origination has nothing to do with your thinking. I detest conspiracy theories. I detest them even when they are about my competition. I am as transparent and direct as you will EVER hear or see from a vendor. Period. The "dramatic drop in price" has everything to do with architecting a program with mechanisms that significantly reduce internal overhead (we are typically not the easiest company to buy from) as well as taking a calculated risk in anticipation of improving market conditions for us among a set of customers for which I have a great deal of personal connection, respect, and interest -- WISPs. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:11 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential "best effort" solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: "A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs." We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Right on! Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. That's what I plan on using. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Marty Dougherty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program > yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as > before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still > INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft > long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is > already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers > don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a > bad connector later. > > We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this > is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program > to other products. (Patrick...) > > Marty > > ___ > Marty Dougherty > CEO > Roadstar Internet Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ *
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Oh and BTW, what happens to a link that is trying to shove 5Mbps FDX through while auto-rated down to modulation 1 in the event of noise? It drops packets! That was our problem with the VL. The client experienced this and their applications simply would not work. We also were seeing ping packets dropping to the tune of 5-25%...not a good thing. Love to continue with this discussion, but I have a few more last minute Christmas errands to run! Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: Brad Belton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:45 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Agreed, Trango is far from "immune" from interference, but they do give you a few more tools in your bag to combat it. (1) RX Threshold (2) Dual Polarity (3) Dual Band Alvarion VL offers none of these. If they did they would hands down be the best PtMP LE gear available today IMO. However, I don't think they ever will offer these features as it would be a conflict of interest with their more expensive licensed gear. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The radio will auto modulate down from mod level 8 to 1 when faced with interference. They won't stop transmitting when interference is present however. They do work like any radio out there, two way radio, Ip radios, Trango radios all need a specific C/I ratio to run correctly. I don't know that I can "properly" engineer a Trango, Alvarion, or Redline link to cope with future unknown interference. Sure, big antennas, tight beams, and strong C/I ratios is the way to go but is it enough? Most of the time probably. So we engineer our links to be as resiliant as possible, but when somebody points that 4 foot dish down our throat I want a radio that will drop mod levels and cope with it, albeit at a reduced speed rather than one that only has 1 speed. I thought Trango added mod levels to their 5.8 product to help cope. Is that true or did it not get built? Merry Christmas! Mike At 03:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: >Wow back at ya there, Mike! > >Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the >gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. >Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds >in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd >love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of >noise. > >Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to >continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment >if the link is engineered correctly. > >Best and Merry Christmas! > > >Brad > > > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Mike Cowan >Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM >To: WISPA General List >Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > >Wow Brad, > >With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you >have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL >does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their >hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and >will still transmit. It is THE business class product >IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market >by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the >exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to >empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has >gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. > >Mike Cowan > > >At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: > >Hello Marlon, > > > >VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it > >will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold > >mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business > >class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me > >by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL > >for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing >the > >VL product as a residential "best effort" solution...hence the dramatic >drop > >in price. > > > >In Patrick's words: > >"A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. > >should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.&quo
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Agreed, however like I said if the link is engineered properly the RX threshold will save you more times than not. Is the Trango immune from noise? Absolutely not, but at least you have a tool or two in your bag to work around it. RX threshold - dual band - dual polarity. VL has none of these! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:26 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow back at ya there, Mike! Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of noise. Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. mks: Lets be fair here. Using the threshold also comes with a distance penalty. Knowing it takes roughly 6 dB to double your distance, setting the threshold from -80 to -75 can cut one's range from 5 to less than 3 miles. That's nearly 4x less potential customer base. mks: I love the rx threshold and I use it. However, it's not without it's own penalty. marlon Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: >Hello Marlon, > >VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it >will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold >mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business >class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me >by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL >for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the >VL product as a residential "best effort" solution...hence the dramatic drop >in price. > >In Patrick's words: >"A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. >should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs." > >We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a >committed rate business class customer. > >The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, >but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at >all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post >was because of your intended use of the VL product. > >Best and Merry Christmas! > > >Brad > Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
I too am interested in what the minium price would be to put up a POP using Alvarion gear. I really like my Trango gear but this stuff sounds awesome and from what I read the Comnet program is just what I am looking for. To compare to build out a Trango POP it costs about 1600 that includes AP, a switch and a battery backup system. Can Alvarion get close to this? On 12/22/06, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It's much closer Patrick. That's for sure. Let run some numbers though. Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap: $450ish. Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges up to 10 miles. 1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles. Sector antenna, $400. Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and antenna. This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily. If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, battery backup, switch, cables etc. If we're lucky that'll even include backhaul. For CPE the cost is gonna be around: 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good ones from PacWireless) $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot) Misc. nuts and bolts $20. We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor. Connectorized version, $180ish 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones)) Mount, $12 Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20 Cable, $10 to $20. This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done. Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too. But I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural areas. Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them. Many are under 10. Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100. Last year we installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs. This with basically no marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition. Per customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive services. Our network now spans around 6000 square miles. It's taken over 20 sites with nearly 30 ap's to do this. Our growth potential is really good. But not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't be any more customers coming. We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear. Today we're using Trango. $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out). They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the box. Great security and flexibility. Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though. I want to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with enough growth to keep me in the program though. Even with resi. customers tossed in. If I were in Spokane, Seattle, Yakima etc. it would be a no brainer for me. The interference robustness, the scalability, the upgradeability etc. all make this a much more cut and dried decision. Especially the inference issues. I look at what we fight with out here with relatively few alien devices in the air. How guys like Forbes keep their customers running is a mystery to me. The manpower overhead has to be a killer. How do those numbers compare with a similar VL solution Help me find a way to justify the big boy toys. Trust me, the idea that I'd not need to do any work on my network appeals to me more and more with every new customer. But we're still taking care of things with 1.75 people and I spend an average of 25% to 30% of my day on these lists and other WISPA type duties so I probably really only count for a 3/4 time person. If I'd totally automate my billing, get rid of my time on the lists and forward the office calls to my cell phone I could probably do this with one person. (saving around $17,000 per year in payroll) But who wants to work that hard forever? And Mary is much nicer on the phone than I am :-). Have a great Christmas! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Agreed, Trango is far from "immune" from interference, but they do give you a few more tools in your bag to combat it. (1) RX Threshold (2) Dual Polarity (3) Dual Band Alvarion VL offers none of these. If they did they would hands down be the best PtMP LE gear available today IMO. However, I don't think they ever will offer these features as it would be a conflict of interest with their more expensive licensed gear. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hi Brad, The radio will auto modulate down from mod level 8 to 1 when faced with interference. They won't stop transmitting when interference is present however. They do work like any radio out there, two way radio, Ip radios, Trango radios all need a specific C/I ratio to run correctly. I don't know that I can "properly" engineer a Trango, Alvarion, or Redline link to cope with future unknown interference. Sure, big antennas, tight beams, and strong C/I ratios is the way to go but is it enough? Most of the time probably. So we engineer our links to be as resiliant as possible, but when somebody points that 4 foot dish down our throat I want a radio that will drop mod levels and cope with it, albeit at a reduced speed rather than one that only has 1 speed. I thought Trango added mod levels to their 5.8 product to help cope. Is that true or did it not get built? Merry Christmas! Mike At 03:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: >Wow back at ya there, Mike! > >Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the >gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. >Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds >in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd >love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of >noise. > >Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to >continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment >if the link is engineered correctly. > >Best and Merry Christmas! > > >Brad > > > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Mike Cowan >Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM >To: WISPA General List >Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived > >Wow Brad, > >With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you >have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL >does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their >hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and >will still transmit. It is THE business class product >IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market >by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the >exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to >empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has >gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. > >Mike Cowan > > >At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: > >Hello Marlon, > > > >VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it > >will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold > >mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business > >class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me > >by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL > >for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing >the > >VL product as a residential "best effort" solution...hence the dramatic >drop > >in price. > > > >In Patrick's words: > >"A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. > >should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs." > > > >We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a > >committed rate business class customer. > > > >The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, > >but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at > >all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post > >was because of your intended use of the VL product. > > > >Best and Merry Christmas! > > > > > >Brad > > > >Mike Cowan >Wireless Connections >A Division of ACC >166 Milan Ave >Norwalk, OH 44857 >419-660-
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Hi Brad, The radio will auto modulate down from mod level 8 to 1 when faced with interference. They won't stop transmitting when interference is present however. They do work like any radio out there, two way radio, Ip radios, Trango radios all need a specific C/I ratio to run correctly. I don't know that I can "properly" engineer a Trango, Alvarion, or Redline link to cope with future unknown interference. Sure, big antennas, tight beams, and strong C/I ratios is the way to go but is it enough? Most of the time probably. So we engineer our links to be as resiliant as possible, but when somebody points that 4 foot dish down our throat I want a radio that will drop mod levels and cope with it, albeit at a reduced speed rather than one that only has 1 speed. I thought Trango added mod levels to their 5.8 product to help cope. Is that true or did it not get built? Merry Christmas! Mike At 03:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Wow back at ya there, Mike! Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of noise. Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: >Hello Marlon, > >VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it >will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold >mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business >class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me >by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL >for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the >VL product as a residential "best effort" solution...hence the dramatic drop >in price. > >In Patrick's words: >"A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. >should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs." > >We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a >committed rate business class customer. > >The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, >but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at >all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post >was because of your intended use of the VL product. > >Best and Merry Christmas! > > >Brad > Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
- Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:26 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow back at ya there, Mike! Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of noise. Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. mks: Lets be fair here. Using the threshold also comes with a distance penalty. Knowing it takes roughly 6 dB to double your distance, setting the threshold from -80 to -75 can cut one's range from 5 to less than 3 miles. That's nearly 4x less potential customer base. mks: I love the rx threshold and I use it. However, it's not without it's own penalty. marlon Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential "best effort" solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: "A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs." We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
OK then, Patrick, Ed, whoever, is the VL a CSMAK based product like WiFi or a polling based product like Trango? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:21 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Tom, Just speaking from first hand experience and the experiences of the references Alvarion gave me. Nothing more. The VL gear is a great product for a "best effort" solution, but not a committed rate business class service. Two very different animals. Again, my post was only because Marlon indicated he intended to use the VL gear for a business class rollout. I just wanted to give him a heads up, that's all. I do believe Alvarion's move to lower the price on the VL gear was to put it within the reach of the market the product could best perform. The VL gear does fly on "bursty - up to" traffic. It is amazing when it works, but it isn't able to maintain that level of service 24x7. It's like the VL flys when it can and then holds off looking for clean air time then flys again. This is perfectly fine for 99% of the residential requirements, but doesn't cut it for a business that is pushing and pulling 5Mbps+ FDX 12hrs a day. In contrast a Trango M5830 will push and pull 4.5Mbps FDX or 8-9Mbps HDX all day long regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Brad, I'm not sure that is a fair statement. I agree, TDD/DSSS/Pol Diversity solutions can tackle that noise better, one of the reasons Trango is still the only clear choice for a good number of my cell sites. But there are many reasons WISPs are making the move to OFDM. Alvarion handles OFDM as well if not better than other OFDM solutions. If we are comparing apples to apples (OFDM to OFDM) Alvarion has many built in features to help guarantee QOS for high end business compared to other OFDM solutions. If OFDM is an Option for the WISP, Alvarion is as good an option as anyone else for the job. I do not agree that Alvarions move to go after residential market negates their quality for business markets. Residential markets will simply sell higher volume of CPEs, allowing a lower sale cost. For me the distinguishing factor in available OFDM gear is Ease out of the box versus Built-in testing tools and flexibility. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:11 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Hello Marlon, VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the VL product as a residential "best effort" solution...hence the dramatic drop in price. In Patrick's words: "A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs." We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a committed rate business class customer. The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post was because of your intended use of the VL product. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Right on! Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. That's what I plan on using. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
Wow back at ya there, Mike! Never said the product was less in quality in any form. Simply stating the gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments. Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds in the face of noise. Do you know something they don't? Please share, I'd love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of noise. Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered correctly. Best and Merry Christmas! Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Cowan Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived Wow Brad, With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one. VL does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their hoppers did. It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and will still transmit. It is THE business class product IMHO. Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market by making this radio available at this reduced price. It is the exact same radio that normally costs more. They are trying to empower the WISP to use quality gear. To say the gears quality has gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true. Mike Cowan At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: >Hello Marlon, > >VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it >will modulate down in a noisy environment. Without any RX threshold >mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business >class loads in unfriendly RF environments. Even the references given to me >by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL >for committed rate business class service. IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the >VL product as a residential "best effort" solution...hence the dramatic drop >in price. > >In Patrick's words: >"A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. >should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs." > >We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a >committed rate business class customer. > >The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features, >but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at >all) as a committed rate business class solution. Only reason for my post >was because of your intended use of the VL product. > >Best and Merry Christmas! > > >Brad > Mike Cowan Wireless Connections A Division of ACC 166 Milan Ave Norwalk, OH 44857 419-660-6100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.wirelessconnections.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
