Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
John Lim Wrote: If the cluster cannot handle the load, then the queues will just get longer and longer. It's interesting that mlwmohawk asked about this because msession is a lightweight session handler without rdbms overhead. Similarly queuing is used instead of a real database for the same reasons - lightweight without rdbms overhead so it scales better. So if the cluster would fail talking to a real rdbms, it will work and scale better using queuing, a more light-weight technology (no need for indexes, joins, etc - just push and pop). I have a reference here which is not the exactly the same as the above one I gave, but you should get the idea: http://www-3.ibm.com/e-business/doc/content/casestudy/43886.html Well, this is not what I expected. I'm surprised there is a name for it. I've done a lot of similar things to remove load from SQL databases. The important aspect of what queuing seems to be the study of what data needs to be in the central database in real time. The stuff that need not be in real-time can be pushed off to a different system. I'm not sure this really works for e-commerce because if sales are batched then inventory is not up to date. Because of this, it is possible you will sell what you do not have in stock. Typically, I analyze systems for logically separate functions, and break out the various subsytems. The big bonus comes from when you can find reasonably read-only components, like cataloges. So, instead of one heavily loaded database, you can have a few specialized databases. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Kristian Can we please keep the anti-american comments to ourselves. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Kristian Can we please keep the anti-american comments to ourselves. Well, he can't help it, making broad generalizations about a culture is a trademarked german concept... -Sterling -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Am Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2002 14:26 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Kristian Can we please keep the anti-american comments to ourselves. Or else! :-) Kristian -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Come on ... This conversation is just fulling mailboxes and the entertainment value is questionable while at the same time offense to atleast some ... So just keep it down and lets stay on topic Thx, Lukas Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DybNet Internet Solutions GbR Reuchlinstr. 10-11 Gebäude 4 1.OG Raum 6 (4.1.6) 10553 Berlin Germany Tel. : +49 30 83 22 50 00 Fax : +49 30 83 22 50 07 www.dybnet.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Kristian Koehntopp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 3:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision Am Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2002 14:26 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Kristian Can we please keep the anti-american comments to ourselves. Or else! :-) Kristian -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Am Montag, 3. Juni 2002 18:11 schrieb Sebastian Bergmann: Zeev Suraski wrote: Hmm, because he's bigger? :) I can live with that :) Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Kristian -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Kristian Koehntopp wrote: Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Pax Americana replaced Pax Romana a while ago :) -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 12:34 PM 6/4/2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Kristian Koehntopp wrote: Peace through superior firepower? That's a trademarked american concept at the moment, I think. Pax Americana replaced Pax Romana a while ago :) 'cept there's no pax... -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
John Lim Wrote: Hi, I like the PHP language the way it is with some exceptions. Private members and methods are essential from a security view-point, and perhaps application variables, but that's about it. My main problem with PHP's direction is that it seems stuck at the low-end of the corporate world. Let me explain. I'm developing extranets with PHP and occasionally I get a checklist of required features from a customer. Features such as: - clustering, Beowulf for process clustering, LVS for performance clustering. - management of server farms, There are many good beowulf tools for this. - transparent fail-over, LVS - load balancing LVS - application deployment without restarting server Beowulf tools. - advanced queueing Queuing of what? - database connection pooling PHP has an amount of this with persistent connections. I believe that many of these features should probably not be part of the language, or are already available as separate libraries or can be implemented without modifying PHP, as Smarty has proved with templates. However there is no one central resource that explains where you can find the knowledge or source code to implement this. Is there any company addressing all these issues. Let me know! For example, one spec I had to comply for a recent proposal was - NO SINGLE POINT OF FAILURE. I looked at msession and I asked myself, does it provide support for a backup session server on failover? Reading the docs, I think not. Of course a database-backed session handler can provide failover support, but where can I get proven tested code that I know is reliable without having to write it myself? The No single point of failure mantra is very over-rated and, well, impossible. There is *always* a single point of failure somewhere. Even if you have two geographically separate installations with different power companies, and different ISPs, chances are, somewhere, you will be carried by some common backbone. The No single point of falure only works in closed systems like aircraft, satilites, and spaceships. Data centers and internet providers always have exposure because quality of service is beyond the control of the IT manager, it is an open system. It does not matter *who* you are, you will have a failure in your system. You must evaluate your risk tollerance, first understanding that 100% no risk is an impossibility. Once people accept that risk is unavoidable, they are ready to estimate what they can take. If you don't mind a probabilty of an hour downtime a year, you can build a datacenter much more cheaply than if you can't accept the probability of 10 minutes downtime. You have to, however, accept that *no* downtime is not an option. I am not a fan of 100% fully redundant systems. I think the expense of such systems are rarely justified, and unless you have REALLY done the work to understand what all your points of failure are, you are wasting your time and money. I remember a company dictating fully redundent systems, two alteon load balancers, a small cluseter of PHP servers, etc. The ISP was not redundant, so they still had a failure. The liklihood of a failure at the ISP was more than the likelihood of equipment failure. They spent a lot of money that they did not need to spend and created a false sense of security. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message I am not a fan of 100% fully redundant systems. I think the expense of such systems are rarely justified, and unless you have REALLY done the work to understand what all your points of failure are, you are wasting your time and money. Hello mlwmohawk, If the customer wants fully redundant systems, i'm not going to object. It may make sense to them, and it probably helps pay the rent better. Whether they have the willpower to achieve actual 99.95% uptime after we complete a project by maintaining NASA standards of maintainence depends on the customer. I have noticed that many ISP's that boast 99.95% uptime levels do not measure time that httpd is up, but the time the hardware is up :-). So its how you define uptime and redundancy... John. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... John Lim Wrote: Hi, - advanced queueing Queuing of what? Say you are Amazon or some similar company and has a fancy cluster for order processing. As orders come in, the cluster cannot handle the peak load, so we need to queue the orders using some such technology until the cluster can process them. These queues are actually mini-databases as they often support saving to disk, replication, commit-rollback etc. without the overhead of relational databases (though you can implement it with relational db technology). Hope that helps clarify things and doesn't get me as much flak as my discussion of private members :-) Regards, John -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Ilia A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... John, If your authentication class holds the passwords inside wouldn't running the 'strings' utility on the file reveal all the passwords even if the php script is Zend Encoded? Ilia Hi Ilia, Don't know, but it sure looks like encrypted mud. This isn't a.out you know. Perhaps we should ask Zeev or Andi :-) On June 3, 2002 04:44 am, John Lim wrote: Hi Sebastian, Unfortunately some people are paranoid about security. We might not want people to fiddle around with the internals of a class, for example an authentication class which holds the passwords of users. Even if the whole web site is Zend Encoded, doing a var_dump on $GLOBALS will reveal a lot about .the site. Regards, John Sebastian Bergmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... John Lim wrote: Private members and methods are essential from a security view-point, Why? They solve social issues between developers. and perhaps application variables, but that's about it. SRM adds Application Variables to the PHP Platform. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Hi Ilia, Don't know, but it sure looks like encrypted mud. This isn't a.out you know. Perhaps we should ask Zeev or Andi :-) That could very well be the case, but anyone who can compile php/zend with debugging symbols and has a debuger like gdb or ddd will be able to easily grab the passwords to simply running the encoded script no? Ilia -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Dan Kalowsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, John Lim wrote: Say you are Amazon or some similar company and has a fancy cluster for order processing. As orders come in, the cluster cannot handle the peak load, so we need to queue the orders using some such technology until the cluster can process them. These queues are actually mini-databases as they often support saving to disk, replication, commit-rollback etc. without the overhead of relational databases (though you can implement it with relational db technology). Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but this queing idea seems rather silly. If the cluster is unable to handle the load, how do you expect your webserver to write a temp database? This kind of idea would have to be handled/implemented at a switch or router level I'd think, and thats REALLY not where PHP is :) If the cluster cannot handle the load, then the queues will just get longer and longer. It's interesting that mlwmohawk asked about this because msession is a lightweight session handler without rdbms overhead. Similarly queuing is used instead of a real database for the same reasons - lightweight without rdbms overhead so it scales better. So if the cluster would fail talking to a real rdbms, it will work and scale better using queuing, a more light-weight technology (no need for indexes, joins, etc - just push and pop). I have a reference here which is not the exactly the same as the above one I gave, but you should get the idea: http://www-3.ibm.com/e-business/doc/content/casestudy/43886.html --- Dan Kalowsky The record shows, I took the blows. http://www.deadmime.org/~dank And did it my way. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - My Way, Frank Sinatra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Ilia A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi Ilia, Don't know, but it sure looks like encrypted mud. This isn't a.out you know. Perhaps we should ask Zeev or Andi :-) That could very well be the case, but anyone who can compile php/zend with debugging symbols and has a debuger like gdb or ddd will be able to easily grab the passwords to simply running the encoded script no? Ilia I agree. I wish that all the movie and music moguls who want to enforce legislation on multimedia encryption would understand this too. Regards, John -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Jani Taskinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: So what really ARE the needs of more advanced developers? (I'm starting to sound like a broken record now :) --Jani Hi, I like the PHP language the way it is with some exceptions. Private members and methods are essential from a security view-point, and perhaps application variables, but that's about it. My main problem with PHP's direction is that it seems stuck at the low-end of the corporate world. Let me explain. I'm developing extranets with PHP and occasionally I get a checklist of required features from a customer. Features such as: - clustering, - management of server farms, - transparent fail-over, - load balancing - application deployment without restarting server - advanced queueing - database connection pooling I believe that many of these features should probably not be part of the language, or are already available as separate libraries or can be implemented without modifying PHP, as Smarty has proved with templates. However there is no one central resource that explains where you can find the knowledge or source code to implement this. Is there any company addressing all these issues. Let me know! For example, one spec I had to comply for a recent proposal was - NO SINGLE POINT OF FAILURE. I looked at msession and I asked myself, does it provide support for a backup session server on failover? Reading the docs, I think not. Of course a database-backed session handler can provide failover support, but where can I get proven tested code that I know is reliable without having to write it myself? Does this mean that when i become more successful and get larger clients with Enterprise requirements I have to abandon PHP and switch to Java or MS.NET? I hope not. Regards, John -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Hi, * Jani Taskinen wrote: What do you mean with 'better release management' ? Extensions that get broken from one minor release to another minor release is not a very good thing. more complexity to the language itself. Why would making PHP more complex be a good thing? Because not every web designer and semi-programmer could then work with PHP - this lacks the image of PHP. (PHP ist only good for guestbooks and very small applications., most people think) -- PHP-Support * realitätsnahe Performance-Messungen mit Code-Analyse Webapplikationsentwicklung * PHP-Schulungen * Consulting 0700-THINKPHP -*- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
John Lim wrote: Private members and methods are essential from a security view-point, Why? They solve social issues between developers. and perhaps application variables, but that's about it. SRM adds Application Variables to the PHP Platform. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
One problem you run into with this kind of project is making the project be a BE-ALL-END-ALL to every problem. (Kind of recursive, eh) - clustering, - management of server farms, - transparent fail-over, - load balancing - application deployment without restarting server - advanced queueing - database connection pooling These items depend totally on your environment you run PHP in. In Linux you could use, possibly: * Clustering - Beowulf * Management - WebAdmin? * Transparent - Depends on your implementation and Database systems * Load Balancing - Beowulf? Kernel level NAT? * App Deploy - PHP already does this * Advanced Queuing - Depends on you Web Server. Apache is getting better at this with 2.0 I think. * Database Connection Pooling - Already handled in PHP with pconnect? One area where ASP and MS have a problem is trying to put everything inside the specific language, instead of having several projects that happen to work together. This is where UNIX/Linux shines, I believe, and it has been working well for PHP as well. Making PHP work a certain way because a specific platform doesn't have the different items should not be a deciding factor. Nor should putting the stuff in PHP because the different platforms have different means of making the stuff happen. In essance PHP would become it's own Web Server, which would bring about a whole new level of potential issues. Not to mention time frame to get it implemented. -- Scott Carr OpenOffice.org Whiteboard-Doc Maintainer http://whiteboard.openoffice.org/doc/ Quoting John Lim [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jani Taskinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: So what really ARE the needs of more advanced developers? (I'm starting to sound like a broken record now :) --Jani Hi, I like the PHP language the way it is with some exceptions. Private members and methods are essential from a security view-point, and perhaps application variables, but that's about it. My main problem with PHP's direction is that it seems stuck at the low-end of the corporate world. Let me explain. I'm developing extranets with PHP and occasionally I get a checklist of required features from a customer. Features such as: - clustering, - management of server farms, - transparent fail-over, - load balancing - application deployment without restarting server - advanced queueing - database connection pooling I believe that many of these features should probably not be part of the language, or are already available as separate libraries or can be implemented without modifying PHP, as Smarty has proved with templates. However there is no one central resource that explains where you can find the knowledge or source code to implement this. Is there any company addressing all these issues. Let me know! For example, one spec I had to comply for a recent proposal was - NO SINGLE POINT OF FAILURE. I looked at msession and I asked myself, does it provide support for a backup session server on failover? Reading the docs, I think not. Of course a database-backed session handler can provide failover support, but where can I get proven tested code that I know is reliable without having to write it myself? Does this mean that when i become more successful and get larger clients with Enterprise requirements I have to abandon PHP and switch to Java or MS.NET? I hope not. Regards, John -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Hi, And doesn't ZE2 address almost all of those OO related things? It does. Personally, I'm missing two things in Zend Engine 2.0: interfaces and private methods. Both are not really critical, as they don't aim at solving technical problems, but social ones during the design process. Private methods would be very nice to have. Like you said, technically it doesn't matter, but it makes it easier to 'educate' people. Example: I have written some classes for my company, and I made docs that explained all the available methods. Now a co-worker had a look at the sources, and decided that a few 'internal/undocumented' functions were useful to him... Since I didn't know those functions were used outside the class, I changed them and broke some of his code. The obvious sollution would be to educate my co-worker about using undocumented features, but doing this through programming language constructs makes this a lot easier (and I can be SURE nobody uses that code where they shouldn't). Just my personal reasons why I would like private methods :) Sander. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:48:48AM +0200, Björn Schotte wrote : Hi, * Jani Taskinen wrote: What do you mean with 'better release management' ? Extensions that get broken from one minor release to another minor release is not a very good thing. This is true, but ... there is absolutely _nothing_ we can do about it. The QA Team is, well .. sometimes I get the impression it's only one person! Until we prison some people to do it, I think our QA or Release Management will not improve that much. Other hot topics in this area would be automated test system (more then the current make test does). Yet this needs ideas, work, not paid time dedication (you see yet again the same problem arises :). sigh, - Markus -- GnuPG Key: http://guru.josefine.at/~mfischer/C2272BD0.asc Did I help you?http://guru.josefine.at/wish_en Konnte ich helfen? http://guru.josefine.at/wish_de -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Hi Sebastian, Unfortunately some people are paranoid about security. We might not want people to fiddle around with the internals of a class, for example an authentication class which holds the passwords of users. Even if the whole web site is Zend Encoded, doing a var_dump on $GLOBALS will reveal a lot about .the site. Regards, John Sebastian Bergmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... John Lim wrote: Private members and methods are essential from a security view-point, Why? They solve social issues between developers. and perhaps application variables, but that's about it. SRM adds Application Variables to the PHP Platform. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 09:48 AM 6/3/2002, Björn Schotte wrote: more complexity to the language itself. Why would making PHP more complex be a good thing? Because not every web designer and semi-programmer could then work with PHP - this lacks the image of PHP. (PHP ist only good for guestbooks and very small applications., most people think) I understand that reverse logic, but reject it completely. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 10:18 3-6-2002, Markus Fischer shared with all of us: This is true, but ... there is absolutely _nothing_ we can do about it. The QA Team is, well .. sometimes I get the impression it's only one person! Derick had a good thing going, when he emailed people who reported problems and needed confirmation of a fix. That stopped. Besides that - there's no involvement of QA when extensions get moved, broken or added new functionality - just at RC time. Yes - most of us, will read php-dev, but a heads-up when something major has changed with an extension is not a bad thing. This will allow the extension maintainer to fix things when it's still fresh - not when there's a release x weeks/months down the road, and he's devoted his time elsewhere and can't do anything about it anymore. Until we prison some people to do it, I think our QA or Release Management will not improve that much. Other hot topics in this area would be automated test system (more then the current make test does). The current (=4.3.0-dev) make test at least provides a consistent output and logging. With a simple command all reports can be collected: find . -type f \( -name *.log -a \! -name config.log \) -print | xargs tar -cpvzf ./failed.tgz Add that to the test target in the makefile and instructions on where to upload it, and you'll make test-reporting a whole lot easier. Met vriendelijke groeten / With kind regards, IDG.nl Melvyn Sopacua Webmaster -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
John, Whether we end up having private methods or not, it's way beyond their scope to address the issue of security, and protecting data from someone who has access to their code. It's always possible to work around that level of 'security', whether it's in C++, Java or any other language. private members/methods are an issue of software development methodologies, and have nothing to do with security. Zeev At 11:44 AM 6/3/2002, John Lim wrote: Hi Sebastian, Unfortunately some people are paranoid about security. We might not want people to fiddle around with the internals of a class, for example an authentication class which holds the passwords of users. Even if the whole web site is Zend Encoded, doing a var_dump on $GLOBALS will reveal a lot about .the site. Regards, John Sebastian Bergmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... John Lim wrote: Private members and methods are essential from a security view-point, Why? They solve social issues between developers. and perhaps application variables, but that's about it. SRM adds Application Variables to the PHP Platform. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)
On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 12:17:34AM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: The ease of PHP - one of its biggest advantages is also one of its biggest disadvantages. IMHO. Do you mind elaborating on that?? I think we should hash out this issue as soon as possible, because if people have a vision of turning PHP into a language which is hostile towards newbies, then there's a serious lack of consensus in our team. Furthermore, if you think that we should not strive to make it even easier for people to get started, forever, then we have a strong disagreement as well. I think that PHP should be only as newbie hostile as security dictates (register_globals off and similar stuff). It should be as convenient and easy to use as possible. It should also provide hooks and means to reconfigure it manually for those people who want to outgrow PHP, or want to run a cleaner language. That is, there really should be options that turn on stricter variable checking, stricter handling of objects. And there should be deployment models that enable more demanding programming styles. And these should NOT be default. Those who want them will be able to enable them. Kristian -- Kristian Köhntopp, NetUSE AG, Dr.-Hell-Straße, D-24107 Kiel Tel: +49 431 386 435 00, Fax: +49 431 386 435 99 -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Melvyn Sopacua wrote: At 10:18 3-6-2002, Markus Fischer shared with all of us: This is true, but ... there is absolutely _nothing_ we can do about it. The QA Team is, well .. sometimes I get the impression it's only one person! Derick had a good thing going, when he emailed people who reported problems and needed confirmation of a fix. That stopped. yes, unfortunately that stopped, because I don't have time to manage it that tight. It costs a lot of time and doesn't gain that much at all. The only reason I did this was to get the release as bugfree as possible. And I only wrote people back who had problems with release candidates. Besides that - there's no involvement of QA when extensions get moved, broken or added new functionality - just at RC time. That's how it is now, but in an ideal situation the tests should be automated to run once a day so incompatabilities are found early. Yes - most of us, will read php-dev, but a heads-up when something major has changed with an extension is not a bad thing. This will allow the extension maintainer to fix things when it's still fresh - not when there's a release x weeks/months down the road, and he's devoted his time elsewhere and can't do anything about it anymore. Until we prison some people to do it, I think our QA or Release Management will not improve that much. Other hot topics in this area would be automated test system (more then the current make test does). The current (=4.3.0-dev) make test at least provides a consistent output and logging. With a simple command all reports can be collected: find . -type f \( -name *.log -a \! -name config.log \) -print | xargs tar -cpvzf ./failed.tgz Add that to the test target in the makefile and instructions on where to upload it, and you'll make test-reporting a whole lot easier. that would help indeed.. Derick --- Did I help you? http://www.jdimedia.nl/derick/link.php?url=giftlist Frequent ranting: http://www.jdimedia.nl/derick/ --- PHP: Scripting the Web - [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your branches are belong to me! SRM: Script Running Machine - www.vl-srm.net --- -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 02:38:50PM +0800, John Lim wrote: Let me explain. I'm developing extranets with PHP and occasionally I get a checklist of required features from a customer. Features such as: - clustering, - management of server farms, - transparent fail-over, - load balancing - application deployment without restarting server - advanced queueing - database connection pooling I believe that many of these features should probably not be part of the language, Most of these are features of the deployment model, not the language. That's part of the problem: Since PHP 3, development has (publicly) concentrated on the language and language features. The deployment model has changed slightly, adding a lot of SAPIs, but not fundamentally - SAPIs manage variables and state like they always did. Also, Zend added some very important things with their Cache, which has been duplicated partially outside Zend. I believe the things that you list above are very important, as important or even more important that the language level changed for PHP 5/ZE2. The issue is, little is being done into this direction at the moment, with SRM being the only project focussing on that. Someone has asked for a vision for PHP, and it might me that... Does this mean that when i become more successful and get larger clients with Enterprise requirements I have to abandon PHP and switch to Java or MS.NET? I hope not. Unless PHP adresses this issue explicitly and publicly: Yes, you will have to switch. Sad. Kristian -- Kristian Köhntopp, NetUSE AG, Dr.-Hell-Straße, D-24107 Kiel Tel: +49 431 386 435 00, Fax: +49 431 386 435 99 -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:44:05PM +0800, John Lim wrote: We might not want people to fiddle around with the internals of a class, for example an authentication class which holds the passwords of users. Even if the whole web site is Zend Encoded, doing a var_dump on $GLOBALS will reveal a lot about .the site. Private variables and private functions are not a security tool. They enforce (partially) a contract between the producer and the user of a class. They also have big design problems, which ultimately lead to a lot of more, and more complicated issues (friend, protected and the like, debugging problems and so on). Kristian -- Kristian Köhntopp, NetUSE AG, Dr.-Hell-Straße, D-24107 Kiel Tel: +49 431 386 435 00, Fax: +49 431 386 435 99 -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)
At 12:28 PM 6/3/2002, Kristian Koehntopp wrote: I think that PHP should be only as newbie hostile as security dictates (register_globals off and similar stuff). It should be as convenient and easy to use as possible. It should also provide hooks and means to reconfigure it manually for those people who want to outgrow PHP, or want to run a cleaner language. That is, there really should be options that turn on stricter variable checking, stricter handling of objects. And there should be deployment models that enable more demanding programming styles. And these should NOT be default. Those who want them will be able to enable them. Amen to that! Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: the web but more for Enterprise transaction based applications such as billing systems. Twisting your words a bit: You don't think PHP should be used for such tasks ?? No I definitely don't. And in most cases I wouldn't use J2EE either but I'd use a C++ App server. There are also performance problems with J2EE App servers but often company's clients require J2EE. Would you write that C++ App server yourself or use some existing one? (just wondering whether there is some open source c++ app server around..) --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, what sorts of things can you do in Java which can not be done in PHP? I'm actually curious about the multidimensional arrays point. Exactly what do you mean? PHP can obviously do $a[1][2][3][4]... Maybe it has been fixed. Take this: $a[5][1000] and $b[1000][5] Which uses more memory? Even though, conceptually, they have the same number of elements, $b is FAR more inefficient. AFAIK there are no multidimentional arrays in PHP, but the ability to create arrays of arrays, which while similar in syntax, are different in implementation. -Rasmus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, what sorts of things can you do in Java which can not be done in PHP? I'm actually curious about the multidimensional arrays point. Exactly what do you mean? PHP can obviously do $a[1][2][3][4]... Maybe it has been fixed. Take this: $a[5][1000] and $b[1000][5] Which uses more memory? Even though, conceptually, they have the same number of elements, $b is FAR more inefficient. AFAIK there are no multidimentional arrays in PHP, but the ability to create arrays of arrays, which while similar in syntax, are different in implementation. -Rasmus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: Is something/someone preventing anyone from doing all this? Look at the discussion that followed the proposition of bundling libxml/libxslt with PHP. Does bundling anything really solve any problems? Or does it actually create new ones? IMO, it only does the latter. Look at mysql for example. Bundling of it didn't really solve any problem, only released some time from replying to some people who didn't understand why mysql functions didn't exist in the PHP they used. It _did_ create new problems with some other modules loaded in Apache, e.g. mod_auth_mysql. Currently, the bundled mysql is not been updated. (it's 3.23.39) Latest stable release is 3.23.49, AFAIK. And doesn't ZE2 address almost all of those OO related things? It does. Personally, I'm missing two things in Zend Engine 2.0: interfaces and private methods. Both are not really critical, as they don't aim at solving technical problems, but social ones during the design process. PHP != Java. :) --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 04:28 PM 6/3/2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, what sorts of things can you do in Java which can not be done in PHP? I'm actually curious about the multidimensional arrays point. Exactly what do you mean? PHP can obviously do $a[1][2][3][4]... Maybe it has been fixed. Take this: $a[5][1000] and $b[1000][5] Which uses more memory? Even though, conceptually, they have the same number of elements, $b is FAR more inefficient. In PHP, both use the same amount of memory (very little, roughly two zval's and two HashTable's). AFAIK there are no multidimentional arrays in PHP, but the ability to create arrays of arrays, which while similar in syntax, are different in implementation. Right. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Björn Schotte wrote: Hi, * Jani Taskinen wrote: What do you mean with 'better release management' ? Extensions that get broken from one minor release to another minor release is not a very good thing. That's a problem with the lack of proper QA. And also the lack of 'feeling of ownership' over an extension. Some extensions have been abandoned by their initial developer and haven't been picked up by anyone else.. more complexity to the language itself. Why would making PHP more complex be a good thing? Because not every web designer and semi-programmer could then work with PHP - this lacks the image of PHP. (PHP ist only good for guestbooks and very small applications., most people think) Any examples? Is PHP too easy to use? :) I find that hard swallow. It's one of the main features why I am using PHP. I'm not clever enough to learn anything complex. :) That is why I myself would like to see PHP used everywhere. :) --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
And doesn't ZE2 address almost all of those OO related things? It does. Personally, I'm missing two things in Zend Engine 2.0: interfaces and private methods. Both are not really critical, as they don't aim at solving technical problems, but social ones during the design process. PHP != Java. :) Exactly. And please let's keep it that way. Private methods are just another Java way of oppressing honest developers :) Edin -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
--- Edin Kadribasic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And doesn't ZE2 address almost all of those OO related things? It does. Personally, I'm missing two things in Zend Engine 2.0: interfaces and private methods. Both are not really critical, as they don't aim at solving technical problems, but social ones during the design process. PHP != Java. :) I'm bother by the fact that you guys keep on saying Php isn't Java so don't use lets not use private methods or interfaces. Java is Object Oriented. Java didn't invent private methods, private members and all the other goodies that go along with OO development. Now good OO design is the best way to get good code re-use out of your time developing. Adding stuff that will help you design better objects like private methods will only make php stronger and more accecptable as a OO soultion. Now as far as where php is going. I feel php should do everything it can to get a more crediable name in other soulitions besides webbased. It definly is tagged as a web scripting language and it should thats what it was built around. But we know that php is way more than that we devlop it. PHP is a strong fast scripting language and should we should start trying to get people to understand this point. - Brad __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Hi Jani, Any examples? Is PHP too easy to use? :) I find that hard swallow. It's one of the main features why I am using PHP. Yep, but IMHO it's also one of its main 'bugs' in the sense of lacking its image. Web designer, Photoshoppers and every allrounder in small to mid-sized web companies gets an order from his chief Here you are, we have to do 'dynamic' web sites. Make this with PHP. - although the photoshopper doesn't know how to program at all. So we see questions arising on the mailing lists and newsgroups regarding How do I print something on my web site with PHP?. And because these people seem to be the majority in these mailing lists (not only mailing lists especially for PHP but for internet working in general), most suits and other mailing list subscribers think Oh what the hell, PHP is only suitable for small applications like guest books. Of course one can prove and promote the opposite by providing advanced tutorials etc., but this is IMHO like grist for the mill. I don't have a solution at all and for now, but that's only what I could observe in the last year(s). Regarding the roadmap: I think a roadmap like Expect new features A, B, C and D in the next three months stable working (as already mentioned) would be a great advance. Something which canalizes the work. Just my 0,02 EUR, Björn. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Monday 03 June 2002 3:35 pm, brad lafountain wrote: Now good OO design is the best way to get good code re-use out of your time developing. In your opinion! In my opinion the best way is to think hard and design your stuff well. For this I don't need my language fattening up and slowing down with OO clutter thank you very much :) Cheers -- Phil Driscoll -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, brad lafountain wrote: I'm bother by the fact that you guys keep on saying Php isn't Java so don't use lets not use private methods or interfaces. Java is Object Oriented. Java didn't invent private methods, private members and all the other goodies that go along with OO development. Now good OO design is the best way to get good code re-use out of your time developing. Adding stuff that will help you design better objects like private methods will only make php stronger and more accecptable as a OO soultion. PHP isn't an OO solution, PHP is a just a tool for a problem. If you think that solving webscripting problems with OO 'solutions' is the 'only' way to do it then you should use Java as a tool. And you can use a procedural aproach for webscripting too, or an OO aproach implemented in a procedural language. [...] Derick --- Did I help you? http://www.jdimedia.nl/derick/link.php?url=giftlist Frequent ranting: http://www.jdimedia.nl/derick/ --- PHP: Scripting the Web - [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your branches are belong to me! SRM: Script Running Machine - www.vl-srm.net --- -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
I have heard this argument a couple of times now. It basically boils down to, PHP is too easy to use which means that non-programmers end up writing bad code and this hurts PHP. I find this argument not only stupid, but extremely offensive. PHP enables people to bring their ideas to life even if they know nothing, or very little, about programming. Stating that this somehow detracts from PHP is nuts! This is the ultimate success of PHP and the one thing I am most proud of. Like the optometrist I met in Australia who had written a complete optometrist office management system in PHP. It handled all his patient records, stored retinal photos, handled billing, etc. This guy was an eye doctor, not a programmer. Obviously a bright guy, but as he explained to me, he really did not have time to work out how to use other more complex solutions. He could figure PHP out. And yes, looking at his code, there were a lot of problems, but the point is that he was able to use his unique knowledge to build a tool that solved his problem. Stating that the language should be obfuscated to not allow the eye doctor to build this application is absolutely insane. No programmer out there is going to know what requirements an optometrist has. You need people with specialized knoweledge to write specialized software. Providing a tool that broadens the size of the pool of specialists able to do this can only be a good thing. If all software was written by programmers we would only have Mandelbrot and prime number generators. -Rasmus On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, [iso-8859-1] Björn Schotte wrote: Hi Jani, Any examples? Is PHP too easy to use? :) I find that hard swallow. It's one of the main features why I am using PHP. Yep, but IMHO it's also one of its main 'bugs' in the sense of lacking its image. Web designer, Photoshoppers and every allrounder in small to mid-sized web companies gets an order from his chief Here you are, we have to do 'dynamic' web sites. Make this with PHP. - although the photoshopper doesn't know how to program at all. So we see questions arising on the mailing lists and newsgroups regarding How do I print something on my web site with PHP?. And because these people seem to be the majority in these mailing lists (not only mailing lists especially for PHP but for internet working in general), most suits and other mailing list subscribers think Oh what the hell, PHP is only suitable for small applications like guest books. Of course one can prove and promote the opposite by providing advanced tutorials etc., but this is IMHO like grist for the mill. I don't have a solution at all and for now, but that's only what I could observe in the last year(s). Regarding the roadmap: I think a roadmap like Expect new features A, B, C and D in the next three months stable working (as already mentioned) would be a great advance. Something which canalizes the work. Just my 0,02 EUR, Björn. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
I agree 100% with Rasmus I also agree with what Björn said regarding roadmaps Best regards, Lukas Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DybNet Internet Solutions GbR Reuchlinstr. 10-11 Gebäude 4 1.OG Raum 6 (4.1.6) 10553 Berlin Germany Tel. : +49 30 83 22 50 00 Fax : +49 30 83 22 50 07 www.dybnet.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:50 PM To: Björn Schotte Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision I have heard this argument a couple of times now. It basically boils down to, PHP is too easy to use which means that non-programmers end up writing bad code and this hurts PHP. I find this argument not only stupid, but extremely offensive. PHP enables people to bring their ideas to life even if they know nothing, or very little, about programming. Stating that this somehow detracts from PHP is nuts! This is the ultimate success of PHP and the one thing I am most proud of. Like the optometrist I met in Australia who had written a complete optometrist office management system in PHP. It handled all his patient records, stored retinal photos, handled billing, etc. This guy was an eye doctor, not a programmer. Obviously a bright guy, but as he explained to me, he really did not have time to work out how to use other more complex solutions. He could figure PHP out. And yes, looking at his code, there were a lot of problems, but the point is that he was able to use his unique knowledge to build a tool that solved his problem. Stating that the language should be obfuscated to not allow the eye doctor to build this application is absolutely insane. No programmer out there is going to know what requirements an optometrist has. You need people with specialized knoweledge to write specialized software. Providing a tool that broadens the size of the pool of specialists able to do this can only be a good thing. If all software was written by programmers we would only have Mandelbrot and prime number generators. -Rasmus On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, [iso-8859-1] Björn Schotte wrote: Hi Jani, Any examples? Is PHP too easy to use? :) I find that hard swallow. It's one of the main features why I am using PHP. Yep, but IMHO it's also one of its main 'bugs' in the sense of lacking its image. Web designer, Photoshoppers and every allrounder in small to mid-sized web companies gets an order from his chief Here you are, we have to do 'dynamic' web sites. Make this with PHP. - although the photoshopper doesn't know how to program at all. So we see questions arising on the mailing lists and newsgroups regarding How do I print something on my web site with PHP?. And because these people seem to be the majority in these mailing lists (not only mailing lists especially for PHP but for internet working in general), most suits and other mailing list subscribers think Oh what the hell, PHP is only suitable for small applications like guest books. Of course one can prove and promote the opposite by providing advanced tutorials etc., but this is IMHO like grist for the mill. I don't have a solution at all and for now, but that's only what I could observe in the last year(s). Regarding the roadmap: I think a roadmap like Expect new features A, B, C and D in the next three months stable working (as already mentioned) would be a great advance. Something which canalizes the work. Just my 0,02 EUR, Björn. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
* Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I find this argument not only stupid, but extremely offensive. I don't want to offense those people out there that use PHP but don't know how to program at all. I only want to share my observations I've made in the last year(s). As already said, I don't have a solution to this problem, but I only see the lacking of PHP's image because of these effects. use his unique knowledge to build a tool that solved his problem. Stating that the language should be obfuscated to not allow the eye doctor to build this application is absolutely insane. I don't want to obfuscate PHP in order to not allow the eye doctor to use PHP. Björn. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
PHP != Java. :) I'm bother by the fact that you guys keep on saying Php isn't Java so don't use lets not use private methods or interfaces. Java is Object Oriented. Java didn't invent private methods, private members and all the other goodies that go along with OO development. Now good OO design is the best way to get good just look at the most known opensource web applications written in php. how many of them are coded not using objects? the ones that don't use objects are most likely coming from the old php3 times, like phpmyadmin. so developers are eager to use oop features of php, despite the fact that php is not very OO friendly. pukomuko This message was sent from iTi WebMail gateway. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
I think the people that you talk about dont check what people ask in newsgroups or mailinglists. These are the types of people that read some business mag to find the answers to their technical problems. And getting those business mags to write favourably about PHP is a totally different thing. There you have to advertise PHP as a complete solution (as someone else already mentioned: cluster and failover capabilities etc), that has a transparent vision (roadmap aka .. what is currently worked on - what can be expected for the next couple of months in terms of new stuff). There stuff like Zend or Maguma (I wonder why none of them read this list and said that they want to make PHP Enterprise ready ...) can help. And then you need to be lucky enough to have a guy writing that looks at the reality of things and not at what someone proclaims to be the latest buzz. Best regards, Lukas Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DybNet Internet Solutions GbR Reuchlinstr. 10-11 Gebäude 4 1.OG Raum 6 (4.1.6) 10553 Berlin Germany Tel. : +49 30 83 22 50 00 Fax : +49 30 83 22 50 07 www.dybnet.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Björn Schotte [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:59 PM To: Rasmus Lerdorf Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision * Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I find this argument not only stupid, but extremely offensive. I don't want to offense those people out there that use PHP but don't know how to program at all. I only want to share my observations I've made in the last year(s). As already said, I don't have a solution to this problem, but I only see the lacking of PHP's image because of these effects. use his unique knowledge to build a tool that solved his problem. Stating that the language should be obfuscated to not allow the eye doctor to build this application is absolutely insane. I don't want to obfuscate PHP in order to not allow the eye doctor to use PHP. Björn. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 06:03 PM 6/3/2002, Lukas Smith wrote: (I wonder why none of them read this list and said that they want to make PHP Enterprise ready ...) You're kidding, right? (it doesn't mean that that's what we're going to do). Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
(I wonder why none of them read this list and said that they want to make PHP Enterprise ready ...) You're kidding, right? (it doesn't mean that that's what we're going to do). yeah :-) Well they seemed quite vocal at lasts php-conference about their vision and it would seem to be the perfect opportunity to jump up and shout it out once more. Best regards, Lukas Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DybNet Internet Solutions GbR Reuchlinstr. 10-11 Gebäude 4 1.OG Raum 6 (4.1.6) 10553 Berlin Germany Tel. : +49 30 83 22 50 00 Fax : +49 30 83 22 50 07 www.dybnet.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 5:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision At 06:03 PM 6/3/2002, Lukas Smith wrote: Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, brad lafountain wrote: I'm bother by the fact that you guys keep on saying Php isn't Java so don't use lets not use private methods or interfaces. Java is Object Oriented. Java didn't invent private methods, private members and all the other goodies that go along with OO development. Now good OO design is the best way to get good code re-use out of your time developing. Adding stuff that will help you design better objects like private methods will only make php stronger and more accecptable as a OO soultion. PHP isn't an OO solution, PHP is a just a tool for a problem. If you think that solving webscripting problems with OO 'solutions' is the 'only' way to do it then you should use Java as a tool. And you can use a procedural aproach for webscripting too, or an OO aproach implemented in a procedural language. I wasn't saying that OO is the only way to solve the problem. To me OO soultion is not only cleaner/eaiser to read but it makes a libary eaiser to use. I'm not talking about just webscripting. Having better OO support will allow libary designers to be able to create more re-useable Objects for scripting or application server or gui components. It's kinda frustrating to me, I like php alot and php defintly has the potentional to be used for a wide virity of soultions. Then you guys are going back and forth saying that OO design has a minimanl affect on the community and that OO is clutter. Responses like if you want good OO support use Java? What is that. Why do you say these things. The php/zend engine is pretty damn strong why are you guys looking at it so narrowly. I honistly would like to see php become a more popular soulition than Java in every siuation. Enterprise, websites, or a eye doctor for an internal applicaiton. And i can be. When people at work ask me how long would it take do to x. I first think how long it would take me to do in php. Php is my first tool of choice. Php isn't java but i think it can be way better than java too. - Brad __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Jani Taskinen wrote: Currently, the bundled mysql is not been updated. (it's 3.23.39) Latest stable release is 3.23.49, AFAIK. I am told that Monty will see to it that Zak gets it updated before the next release :-) -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Zeev Suraski wrote: Amen to that! Why does Kristian recieve an Amen to that! for saying the same things I did? :-) (Maybe the padavan should express himself more clearly.) -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 06:43 PM 6/3/2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Zeev Suraski wrote: Amen to that! Why does Kristian recieve an Amen to that! for saying the same things I did? :-) Hmm, because he's bigger? :) Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, brad lafountain wrote: [...] It's kinda frustrating to me, I like php alot and php defintly has the potentional to be used for a wide virity of soultions. Then you guys are going back and forth saying that OO design has a minimanl affect on the community and that OO is clutter. Responses like if you want good OO support use Java? What is that. Why do you say these things. The php/zend engine is pretty damn strong why are you guys looking at it so narrowly. I honistly would like to see php become a more popular soulition than Java in every siuation. Enterprise, websites, or a eye doctor for an internal applicaiton. And i can be. The Zend engine is pretty strong, except for OO things, as it was not designed with that in mind. Now I don't think OO is clutter, it's quite nice, but IMO there are other things more important (for example the 1178 open bug reports) then private methods. Derick --- Did I help you? http://www.jdimedia.nl/derick/link.php?url=giftlist Frequent ranting: http://www.jdimedia.nl/derick/ --- PHP: Scripting the Web - [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your branches are belong to me! SRM: Script Running Machine - www.vl-srm.net --- -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Zeev Suraski wrote: Hmm, because he's bigger? :) I can live with that :) -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Mon, 2002-06-03 at 09:39, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: Currently, the bundled mysql is not been updated. (it's 3.23.39) Latest stable release is 3.23.49, AFAIK. I am told that Monty will see to it that Zak gets it updated before the next release :-) Yep. I started work on it again on the plane to Germany. I am using a script to handle the work so that it will be easier and faster in the future. --zak -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
John, If your authentication class holds the passwords inside wouldn't running the 'strings' utility on the file reveal all the passwords even if the php script is Zend Encoded? Ilia On June 3, 2002 04:44 am, John Lim wrote: Hi Sebastian, Unfortunately some people are paranoid about security. We might not want people to fiddle around with the internals of a class, for example an authentication class which holds the passwords of users. Even if the whole web site is Zend Encoded, doing a var_dump on $GLOBALS will reveal a lot about .the site. Regards, John Sebastian Bergmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... John Lim wrote: Private members and methods are essential from a security view-point, Why? They solve social issues between developers. and perhaps application variables, but that's about it. SRM adds Application Variables to the PHP Platform. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 03:27 PM 6/3/2002 +0300, Jani Taskinen wrote: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: the web but more for Enterprise transaction based applications such as billing systems. Twisting your words a bit: You don't think PHP should be used for such tasks ?? No I definitely don't. And in most cases I wouldn't use J2EE either but I'd use a C++ App server. There are also performance problems with J2EE App servers but often company's clients require J2EE. Would you write that C++ App server yourself or use some existing one? (just wondering whether there is some open source c++ app server around..) Most people I know who are working in these kind of demanding environments (soft real-time requirements) have written these themselves. I don't know of any open source ones except for ACE which isn't a complete app server but gives you a framework to start on. BEA's Tuxedo is a commercial example. Andi -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 17:52 3-6-2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] shared with all of us: The Zend engine is pretty strong, except for OO things, as it was not designed with that in mind. Now I don't think OO is clutter, it's quite nice, but IMO there are other things more important (for example the 1178 open bug reports) then private methods. +1. As a user, making web-applications and surrounding code, to tie stuff together I don't see, why 'better OO support' means adding private vars/methods. IMO this is indeed code clutter - if somebody decided to use a method marked as private in the comments, it's his problem. If people don't warn about a method being private the same applies. If you store plain-text passwords in your code, and claim security problem, you don't get the term security. Better OO support to me, means bringing down the overhead when using multiple instances, and the ability to declare static resource pointers in a parent class, so resources don't need to be re-opened, when an extended object instance is created. On another note - one of php's strengths that isn't mentioned, is x-platform development. Lately issues have arrived that break that (win32 mail, mac osx compilation, mkdir bsd segfault, resolver function detection) - if anything needs more focus, it's that selling point, because the 'run-anywhere' buzzword, is the one that sells to managers more than OO support. Yes - I'm aware that takes a lot of testing and people with access to different machines, which returns me to issue of involving QA more during development rather than at RC time. You can run automated tests, but can you run them on every platform you want to be able to support? Met vriendelijke groeten / With kind regards, IDG.nl Melvyn Sopacua Webmaster -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
just look at the most known opensource web applications written in php. how many of them are coded not using objects? the ones that don't use objects are most likely coming from the old php3 times, like phpmyadmin. so developers are eager to use oop features of php, despite the fact that php is not very OO friendly. Objects in nice and dandy and all that, but often are overused and used where a simple function would work just as well and be faster. In case you did not know, using objects/classes does add a certain level of overhead so, it may not always be appropriate. If anything I've seen much PHP code written with objects just for the sake of using objects, IMHO that is bad design. Ilia -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[Fwd: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision]
I admit I haven't been following this thread closely, but I agree and don't think PHP should be trying to write a transaction system itself. I do think it should try to interface with existing systems tho so PHP can become the front-end for them. I have a good start on a Tuxedo interface (php-tuxedo.sourceforge.net) if you are interested. Brian Andi Gutmans wrote: At 03:27 PM 6/3/2002 +0300, Jani Taskinen wrote: On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: the web but more for Enterprise transaction based applications such as billing systems. Twisting your words a bit: You don't think PHP should be used for such tasks ?? No I definitely don't. And in most cases I wouldn't use J2EE either but I'd use a C++ App server. There are also performance problems with J2EE App servers but often company's clients require J2EE. Would you write that C++ App server yourself or use some existing one? (just wondering whether there is some open source c++ app server around..) Most people I know who are working in these kind of demanding environments (soft real-time requirements) have written these themselves. I don't know of any open source ones except for ACE which isn't a complete app server but gives you a framework to start on. BEA's Tuxedo is a commercial example. Andi -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Making PHP work a certain way because a specific platform doesn't have the different items should not be a deciding factor. wrong. It's absolutely a major factor. Shane -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
* Sebastian Bergmann wrote: For most PHP programmers, mixing PHP and HTML (or using a template system of some kind to avoid this) is enough. These are the users of the quick, powerful platform for creating web sites, in use by hundreds of thousands of people around the world. I fully agree to every word of your mail and that's what I wanted to say. It's great that PHP is so easy to learn and that you can get good results without investing too much time (and therefore, too much money). But as web sites get more and more complex (guestbooks are boring, integrating PHP applications into complex infrastructures is challenging) PHP also has to fullfill these needs (IMHO) from a programming pov. -- PHP-Support * realitätsnahe Performance-Messungen mit Code-Analyse Webapplikationsentwicklung * PHP-Schulungen * Consulting 0700-THINKPHP -*- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Björn Schotte wrote: It's great that PHP is so easy to learn and that you can get good results without investing too much time (and therefore, too much money). But as web sites get more and more complex (guestbooks are boring, integrating PHP applications into complex infrastructures is challenging) PHP also has to fullfill these needs (IMHO) from a programming pov. Could you explain in more detail what exactly these needs would be? --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: layout with some logic. For many of those, PHP is / was the first programming language they learned. I wonder if that's good or bad thing? :) There are also a number of people for whom the above is not enough. They strive for the possibilities the Java platform offers, without being forced to develop in a closed-source environment. As I said before, I really like Java as a language, but don't want to use the Java platform for technical and non-technical reasons. I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? If it were not for the Community Experience I get working with / on PHP and the fact that I don't do programming for a living (yet), I think I would've abandoned PHP a time ago. That Community Experience doesn't really exist anymore, IMHO. Or is it just because the IT bubble burst? :) Like Shane, I believe that there's no contradiction in keeping PHP as easy to use as it has been since its conception, while also addressing the needs of the more advanced PHP developers. So what really ARE the needs of more advanced developers? (I'm starting to sound like a broken record now :) --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. And coming back to the original topic of this thread: perfect support for XML and all related technologies. Working with Java and XML is a charm. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 04:21:48PM +0200, Sebastian Bergmann wrote : Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? And coming back to the original topic of this thread: perfect support for XML and all related technologies. Working with Java and XML is a charm. And too complicated to understand for the majority users of PHP too. Note that not everyone is as clever as you :) - Markus -- GnuPG Key: http://guru.josefine.at/~mfischer/C2272BD0.asc Wishlist EN: http://guru.josefine.at/~mfischer/wishlist_en Wishlist DE: http://guru.josefine.at/~mfischer/wishlist_de -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 04:21 PM 6/2/2002 +0200, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. Are you aware how complex and expensive it is to create a Java application server solution? I know it's a great buzz word but in my opinion it is not very suitable for the web but more for Enterprise transaction based applications such as billing systems. Andi And coming back to the original topic of this thread: perfect support for XML and all related technologies. Working with Java and XML is a charm. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Andi Gutmans wrote: Are you aware how complex and expensive it is to create a Java application server solution? Probably not. But I know that Derick et al. are doing a good job adding Application Server-like functionality to the PHP Platform with SRM. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. And coming back to the original topic of this thread: perfect support for XML and all related technologies. Working with Java and XML is a charm. I dislike much about Java, expecially the multi-drawback issue. It has the same problems as compiled code as well as the same performance issues with interpreted code. Much of the lingo and obfuscation in Java seems completly silly too. If the vision of PHP is to become a more like java, one must ask themselves What's the point? I mean, seriously, there already is a java. I like PHP because it is really easy to make really functional web pages. The only real drawback I have run into in PHP is multi-dimentional arrays. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
* Jani Taskinen wrote: Could you explain in more detail what exactly these needs would be? As Sebastian mentioned (sorry I couldn't reply earlier, we are currently moving PHP-Center/PHP-Conference to a new machine) things like Application Server functionality (VL-SRM), native .NET and WebServices Support, better XML support and a better release management. Perhaps some more complexity to the language itself. Björn. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Markus Fischer wrote: On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 04:21:48PM +0200, Sebastian Bergmann wrote : Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? And coming back to the original topic of this thread: perfect support for XML and all related technologies. Working with Java and XML is a charm. And too complicated to understand for the majority users of PHP too. Note that not everyone is as clever as you :) We don't have to make everything in PHP understandable by everyone. If someone needs to use XML, they need to learn something about it. If someone needs to use an SQL database, they need to learn SQL to some extent. I could go on. It's not about the technology being complex, it's about PHP making it easy to use that technology, but there is always a learning curve that people must go through to use the technology effectively. If we don't advance PHP's capability with a technology because the 'majority of users' wont understand the technology right away, then PHP is doomed to being a tool that does some neat things, but not a tool that is powerful enough to fullfill advanced needs. Shane -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 05:21 PM 6/2/2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. Seriously, Sebastian, if the only reason you're staying with PHP is the community experience, and from a technology standpoint you want Java, please don't try to force that vision and make PHP what it isn't. Don't get this the wrong way - I'm not trying to push you away from PHP, but I reject the attempt to make PHP a flavor of Java, just so that you (or others) can stay within the community. PHP can become stronger, but it will NEVER make a shift and become Java. PHP is PHP, and it's going to stay PHP, with all the benefits and drawbacks that includes. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 09:13 PM 6/2/2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Andi Gutmans wrote: Are you aware how complex and expensive it is to create a Java application server solution? Probably not. But I know that Derick et al. are doing a good job adding Application Server-like functionality to the PHP Platform with SRM. Application servers do stuff that SRM has no plans to do (AFAIK). A multithreaded server running code is hardly what EJB is about. That said, it'll be quite interesting to see how SRM succeeds, and whether a large number of users find this sort of functionality useful. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 09:23 PM 6/2/2002, Björn Schotte wrote: * Jani Taskinen wrote: Could you explain in more detail what exactly these needs would be? As Sebastian mentioned (sorry I couldn't reply earlier, we are currently moving PHP-Center/PHP-Conference to a new machine) things like Application Server functionality (VL-SRM), native .NET and WebServices Support, better XML support and a better release management. Perhaps some more complexity to the language itself. VL-SRM is happening, we can wait and see how popular it becomes. I'm quite in favour of having XML/SOAP support integrated in, as the origin of this thread demonstrated. I'm firmly against adding complexity to the language, I believe we've filled the bucket for at least couple of years with namespaces and exception handling. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Zeev Suraski wrote: A multithreaded server running code is hardly what EJB is about. No, but when people use the words PHP and Application Server in conjunction, they mean a server that provides persistence for PHP objects in the way SRM provides. SRM's Bananas have in my opinion the potential of becoming PHP's equivalent to Java Beans. Once they're stable, we can start defining what Enterprise Bananas need to look like :-) -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
XML/SOAP seems to be worked on quite well SRM will add interesting features, although it will have to be quite mature before I will start integrating it into my framework What I would like to see now is clean ups to the extensions and making sure they work, are well documented and maintained. Best regards, Lukas Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DybNet Internet Solutions GbR Reuchlinstr. 10-11 Gebäude 4 1.OG Raum 6 (4.1.6) 10553 Berlin Germany Tel. : +49 30 83 22 50 00 Fax : +49 30 83 22 50 07 www.dybnet.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Zeev Suraski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:39 PM To: Björn Schotte Cc: Jani Taskinen; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision At 09:23 PM 6/2/2002, Björn Schotte wrote: * Jani Taskinen wrote: Could you explain in more detail what exactly these needs would be? As Sebastian mentioned (sorry I couldn't reply earlier, we are currently moving PHP-Center/PHP-Conference to a new machine) things like Application Server functionality (VL-SRM), native .NET and WebServices Support, better XML support and a better release management. Perhaps some more complexity to the language itself. VL-SRM is happening, we can wait and see how popular it becomes. I'm quite in favour of having XML/SOAP support integrated in, as the origin of this thread demonstrated. I'm firmly against adding complexity to the language, I believe we've filled the bucket for at least couple of years with namespaces and exception handling. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Zeev Suraski wrote: PHP can become stronger, but it will NEVER make a shift and become Java. I don't want it to become Java. I want PHP to stay as simple as possible for beginners, simpler if possible as Shane pointed out. Regarding this I think once the PEAR/PECL infrastructure is in place and people get used to it I think installation and customization of PHP will become easier. But, as I said before, I don't understand why simplicity should mean in its consequence that software designs you find these days in the Java World cannot be done with PHP. The essence (in one sentence) of what I would like to see: I love PHP, but I would like to design and implement my application the same way I could do with Java. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 12:13 AM 6/3/2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: But, as I said before, I don't understand why simplicity should mean in its consequence that software designs you find these days in the Java World cannot be done with PHP. The essence (in one sentence) of what I would like to see: I love PHP, but I would like to design and implement my application the same way I could do with Java. Ok, just wondering, can you explain why, for an average person, learning PHP takes an average of the time it takes to learn Java? Once you do, you'll have your answer. We can't have it all, there's a price to staying simple. We have a pretty good mix today, and we're already stirring a bit towards complexity with PHP 5. It should not become a trend. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Sun, 2002-06-02 at 23:13, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Zeev Suraski wrote: PHP can become stronger, but it will NEVER make a shift and become Java. I don't want it to become Java. I want PHP to stay as simple as possible for beginners, simpler if possible as Shane pointed out. Regarding this I think once the PEAR/PECL infrastructure is in place and people get used to it I think installation and customization of PHP will become easier. But, as I said before, I don't understand why simplicity should mean in its consequence that software designs you find these days in the Java World cannot be done with PHP. The essence (in one sentence) of what I would like to see: I love PHP, but I would like to design and implement my application the same way I could do with Java. But that is what you'll never get with PHP. Just look at how fast creating objects is in Java. Java revolves aroun on objects, they are created and destructed implicitly during execution of overloaded operators and everything. PHP has a _much_ higher cost for using objects. This has design implications that rules out designing your PHP code as you would do for Java. But I guess you already knew that ;-) - Stig -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
There are also a number of people for whom the above is not enough. They strive for the possibilities the Java platform offers, without being forced to develop in a closed-source environment. As I said before, I really like Java as a language, but don't want to use the Java platform for technical and non-technical reasons. I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, what sorts of things can you do in Java which can not be done in PHP? Yes, you may need to structure your code differently, but what can't be done? -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Stig S. Bakken Wrote: But that is what you'll never get with PHP. Just look at how fast creating objects is in Java. Java revolves aroun on objects, they are created and destructed implicitly during execution of overloaded operators and everything. PHP has a _much_ higher cost for using objects. This has design implications that rules out designing your PHP code as you would do for Java. But I guess you already knew that ;-) - Stig Stig, what are are describing is not a change in the language, but a design flaw in the interpreter. The language has constructs for class. I'm not sure, do destructors work yet? Anyway, the higher cost of creating objects in PHP should be able to be changed internally. The PHP environment need not change, just work better. Personally, I have an antipathy to Java. The mentality of Java is similar to the mentality of Pascal. IMHO the proponents of the language are usually more concerned with computer science correctness, then the actuall usability. Yea, the language is cool enough, but I would prefer C++ over Java. IMO java crosses the line and dictates structure. In doing so, makes many simpler operations more difficult. Coming from an assembly/driver background, I put languages in three categories: assembled, compiled, interpreted. Java pretends to be a compiled language, but requiers an interpreter. (VM) Assembled: required to be difficult and non-portable. Use it to get the best performance you can. Compiled: Should be portable. Use it for non-trivial applications Interpreted: Very very portable. Use it for trivial applications. Note: trivial does not mean inconsequential, it means that there are no serious issues with performance or resource usage. You would not implement a CopyBits routine in java or PHP, you would use C, C++ or even assembly. PHP fits the bill for an interpreted environment very well. It is very easy in which to write and very powerful. The extensions are IMHO what make the language. Like C and C++, the languages are quite simple, it is the ability to add to the language that makes it good. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Sebastian Bergmann Wrote: I love PHP, but I would like to design and implement my application the same way I could do with Java. I think this is the problem. PHP is not Java, so it follows you would probably need a different approach. When I code something in assembler, it is structured differently than if I code something in C. My C++ code, while very C-like, is differnt from my C code. Different language require different approaches. I have been coding for many years, professionally for 19. Trying to make one environment act like another is a waste of time. I can't tell you how many young guys I have seen approach assembly as if were C. They end up makeing something that is no better than if it were done in C. The trick of different environments is understand how they work and make the best of them. PHP can *do* pretty much anything that Java can, it just does it differently. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. And coming back to the original topic of this thread: perfect support for XML and all related technologies. Working with Java and XML is a charm. Is something/someone preventing anyone from doing all this? And doesn't ZE2 address almost all of those OO related things? --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: At 04:21 PM 6/2/2002 +0200, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. Are you aware how complex and expensive it is to create a Java application server solution? I know it's a great buzz word but in my opinion it is not very suitable for the web but more for Enterprise transaction based applications such as billing systems. Twisting your words a bit: You don't think PHP should be used for such tasks ?? --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Björn Schotte wrote: new machine) things like Application Server functionality (VL-SRM), native .NET and WebServices Support, better SRM already exists... What it needs is people to really use it and report the bugs and missing features..and also some free time for the people working on it. :) XML support and a better release management. Perhaps some Better XML support is coming already (?). What do you mean with 'better release management' ? more complexity to the language itself. Why would making PHP more complex be a good thing? What exactly do you mean with 'complexity' ? --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
At 03:36 AM 6/3/2002 +0300, Jani Taskinen wrote: On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Andi Gutmans wrote: At 04:21 PM 6/2/2002 +0200, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Jani Taskinen wrote: I'm not that familiar with Java..so it would be nice to hear what Java offers that PHP doesn't? Private members and methods, interfaces, Application Servers, Beans, Enterprise Beans. Are you aware how complex and expensive it is to create a Java application server solution? I know it's a great buzz word but in my opinion it is not very suitable for the web but more for Enterprise transaction based applications such as billing systems. Twisting your words a bit: You don't think PHP should be used for such tasks ?? No I definitely don't. And in most cases I wouldn't use J2EE either but I'd use a C++ App server. There are also performance problems with J2EE App servers but often company's clients require J2EE. Andi Andi -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, what sorts of things can you do in Java which can not be done in PHP? I'm actually curious about the multidimensional arrays point. Exactly what do you mean? PHP can obviously do $a[1][2][3][4]... -Rasmus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Björn Schotte wrote: Perhaps some more complexity to the language itself. I don't think adding new language keywords (like 'private' or 'delete' in Zend Engine 2) make the language more complex. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Jani Taskinen wrote: SRM already exists... What it needs is people to really use it and report the bugs and missing features..and also some free time for the people working on it. :) I'll have some time planned to spend on this soon. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Jani Taskinen wrote: Is something/someone preventing anyone from doing all this? Look at the discussion that followed the proposition of bundling libxml/libxslt with PHP. And doesn't ZE2 address almost all of those OO related things? It does. Personally, I'm missing two things in Zend Engine 2.0: interfaces and private methods. Both are not really critical, as they don't aim at solving technical problems, but social ones during the design process. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Stig S. Bakken wrote: PHP has a _much_ higher cost for using objects. This has design implications that rules out designing your PHP code as you would do for Java. Ah, here comes the beauty of SRM to play: I don't care about object creation costs, if I have to create my objects only once per application, not once for every request. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Zeev Suraski wrote: Ok, just wondering, can you explain why, for an average person, learning PHP takes an average of the time it takes to learn Java? Java has a much higher learning curve, because it more or less forces the programmer to use object orientation. Which, for medium to large applications is a Good Thing[TM]. However, people who have never programmed before have their problems with OOP. We can't have it all, there's a price to staying simple. We have a pretty good mix today, and we're already stirring a bit towards complexity with PHP 5. It should not become a trend. But I may dream? :) -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am curious, besides some language quarks, like multidimentional arrays, What's your problem with multi-dimensional arrays in PHP? -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)
At 07:12 PM 6/1/2002, Björn Schotte wrote: * Sebastian Bergmann wrote: I don't want to see changes (like those you mention later in your posting) in PHP to attract new users, but more to bind people that already use PHP, but are about to outgrow it. If you (and others) want PHP to stay at the BASIC for the Web level forever - fine, but spell it out clearly. Otherwise people who are waiting for PHP to evolve beyond that will become more and more frustrated. +1. The ease of PHP - one of its biggest advantages is also one of its biggest disadvantages. IMHO. Do you mind elaborating on that?? I think we should hash out this issue as soon as possible, because if people have a vision of turning PHP into a language which is hostile towards newbies, then there's a serious lack of consensus in our team. Furthermore, if you think that we should not strive to make it even easier for people to get started, forever, then we have a strong disagreement as well. The PHP project does not exist to create the perfect incarnation of a computer language on the planet, for CS majors to drool over and utter 'Wow!' at. It exists as a quick, powerful platform for creating web sites, in use by hundreds of thousands of people around the world. For some, I believe, somewhere along the lines this was forgotten.. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)
The PHP project does not exist to create the perfect incarnation of a computer language on the planet, for CS majors to drool over and utter 'Wow!' at. It exists as a quick, powerful platform for creating web sites, in use by hundreds of thousands of people around the world. For some, I believe, somewhere along the lines this was forgotten.. Zeev I think PHP can be both powerful and easy to use, and I think I have an example of that in my own experience. I've got code I wrote on PHP 2 years ago, that has gone through a couple face lifts and modifications to keep it compatible with new syntax, and occasionaly take advantage of new features. But you look at the code and it is still 'newbie' code because I haven't spent the time to rewrite from scratch. The point I'm trying to make is that PHP remains extremely easy to learn and use while it has gotten far more powerful over the years. I think there is still more room for more powerful and advanced constructs in the language without making the language perl. I also think there is still a lot of room for making PHP even easier to use, especially for new users. This is the way I've always seen PHP, and the way I think it should remain. Shane -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)
I agree with every word. Zeev At 12:25 AM 6/2/2002, Shane Caraveo wrote: I think PHP can be both powerful and easy to use, and I think I have an example of that in my own experience. I've got code I wrote on PHP 2 years ago, that has gone through a couple face lifts and modifications to keep it compatible with new syntax, and occasionaly take advantage of new features. But you look at the code and it is still 'newbie' code because I haven't spent the time to rewrite from scratch. The point I'm trying to make is that PHP remains extremely easy to learn and use while it has gotten far more powerful over the years. I think there is still more room for more powerful and advanced constructs in the language without making the language perl. I also think there is still a lot of room for making PHP even easier to use, especially for new users. This is the way I've always seen PHP, and the way I think it should remain. Shane -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision (was: libxml bundling)
On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Zeev Suraski wrote: At 07:12 PM 6/1/2002, Björn Schotte wrote: The ease of PHP - one of its biggest advantages is also one of its biggest disadvantages. IMHO. Do you mind elaborating on that?? While I shouldn't speak for others, I can share my take on this. PHP's ease is it's biggest plus. Not only is it easy to learn PHP as a language, but it's extremely easy to extend it into new areas. Because of it's extensibility it's moving in directions that no one really ever thought it'd be used for (i.e. not just web pages). While the innovation is great, it also leads to needs from different groups. And that is where the disadvantage to this system is. I'm not sure there is an exact solution to this either. Although I do think many of these issues will be solved with the full use/implementation of the PECL system, and some other concepts coming down the line (i.e. Marko's dynamically loaded directory). --- Dan KalowskyThe record shows, I took the blows. http://www.deadmime.org/~dankAnd did it my way. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - My Way, Frank Sinatra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP's vision
Zeev Suraski wrote: The ease of PHP - one of its biggest advantages is also one of its biggest disadvantages. IMHO. Do you mind elaborating on that?? PHP has become as popular as it is today because it is easy to learn. It is very attractive for HTML programmers who want to mix their layout with some logic. For many of those, PHP is / was the first programming language they learned. For most PHP programmers, mixing PHP and HTML (or using a template system of some kind to avoid this) is enough. These are the users of the quick, powerful platform for creating web sites, in use by hundreds of thousands of people around the world. There are also a number of people for whom the above is not enough. They strive for the possibilities the Java platform offers, without being forced to develop in a closed-source environment. As I said before, I really like Java as a language, but don't want to use the Java platform for technical and non-technical reasons. If it were not for the Community Experience I get working with / on PHP and the fact that I don't do programming for a living (yet), I think I would've abandoned PHP a time ago. Like Shane, I believe that there's no contradiction in keeping PHP as easy to use as it has been since its conception, while also addressing the needs of the more advanced PHP developers. -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://phpOpenTracker.de/ Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://wishlist.sebastian-bergmann.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
