Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

 Ed,  I don't use sensation that way.  It is just a feeling without 
thoughts.  Usually feeling without thoughts are more truthful. :-)


Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 11/26/2010 5:06 PM, ED wrote:



JMJM,

'Sensation' has a specific meaning in Theravadin Buddhism:

"Sensation: Feeling or sensations are of six forms: vision 
, hearing 
, olfactory 
 sensation, gustatory 
 sensation, tactile 
 sensation, and intellectual 
sensation (thought)."


Source: Table in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da

Is this definition (which includes throught) what you have in mind?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
 wrote:

>
> Great, Mayka,
>
> The only thing truly matters is #4, the sensation. Sensation is
> connection of our physical being and our spiritual being. It is the
> only bridge to unite the two.
>
> Please continue. I am happy for you. Thank you for keeping me posted.
>
> :-)
>
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Mayka,

I don’t try to hold my breath in.  There is a natural pause in between inhale 
and exhale, both in holding the air in for a second or two and after exhaling 
for a second or two.  I just let my breathing happen naturally.  I do 
belly-breath, and as I sit the breathes slow down and get deeper.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 7:28 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
JMJM and Bill:
 
Still under experimentation how to hold the air in the belly for some seconds 
and let it out very slowly.  
 
Observations:
1-Unwanted gutural sound coming from the throat while air was exhaling.  No 
harmony between in and out breathing producing a kind of air anguish.
2- Going back to in and out breathing letting it alone be in command 
3- Regained calmness, in and out breathing becoming by itself deeper on its way 
in and slow on its way out.  Sensation of the wave of the sea rythm.
4-In and out breathing here gets so deep and slow that becomes very silence.
 
Mayka
 
--- On Fri, 26/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 10:22
  
Mayka and JMJM,

In my experience awareness is most intense during exhales, and not so intense 
during inhales.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jue Miao Jing Ming - 
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 12:38 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Yes, Mayka. #5 is the most important. :-) JM
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/25/2010 9:09 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: 

Thank you JMJM.
I think I've got the theory. Do correct me if I didn't:
1 - Let the breath enter as it comes in and out
2- Focus on the up and down of the belly till goes smoothly
3- Hold the breath for as long as I can in the belly but without forcing it too 
much
4- Let the exhaling air going very slowly on its way out
5- Be one with everything that is going on

Mayka 

--- On Thu, 25/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 6:06

Hi Mayka,

Not sure that I understand your question. Let me try...
1. We inhale as slow as we can, without noise, without moving, continuously, 
deep into our belly. Don't count the seconds. Feel and sense the breathing 
path. Six seconds is just reference. The longer the slower the better.
2. Then hold in the belly for 3-5 seconds or longer if you can. Nourish the 
exchange.
3. Then slowly exhale. Little at a time. Continuously. Feel and sense the 
path.

well? clearer?

Some of us can do 20-25 second cycle. The longer the better. 

Do compare the breathing of a dog vs a turtle. Which one lives longer? :-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/24/2010 7:57 PM, Maria Lopez wrote: 
 
JMJM;
Thanks for sharing this practise. It's sounds very healthy. I may have a go 
myself for a week or so to see what's happen. I always start the sitting down 
with belly breathing in togetherness with awareness of body and mind 
whereabouts. 
 
Questions:
 
1 -How long do you hold the in breath?
2 - Letting it out in 15 seconds and very slowly. Is the breath forced here 
in its way out by the counting of 15 seconds?
 
Mayka
 
 

--- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  
wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 20:32
 
Hi Siska,

Now that I know you can do belly breathing, try to follow the path of the 
breathing from nose to belly, then hold and exhale in about 15 minutes each 
cycle. Slowness is critical. Do not focus on the rise and fall of the 
abdomen. Feel the freshness of the air into the belly. Eliminate the label of 
"observer" from your mind, if you can. Usually a month or two should build the 
foundation.

Then transfer your focus to Navel Chakra, from following the breathing. Navel 
chakra is about inch or two behind your belly button. Let your belly breathing 
be natural, automatic by itself. Place all of your sensitivity and attention 
at Navel Chakra. Feel it. 

If you can do this for 45 minutes to one hour at a time, would be great.

Let me know what you witness from this practice.

Thanks,
JM
Be Enlightened In This Life - We
ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/24/2010 4:41 AM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: 
 
Hi JMJM,

Thanks for your suggestions.

Focusing on our '

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Mayka and JMJM,

In my experience awareness is most intense during exhales, and not so intense 
during inhales.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jue Miao Jing Ming - 
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 12:38 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Yes, Mayka.  #5 is the most important.  :-)JM
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/25/2010 9:09 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: 
  
Thank you JMJM.
I think I've got the theory.  Do correct me if I didn't:
1 - Let the breath enter as it comes in and out
2- Focus on the up and down of the belly till goes smoothly
3- Hold the breath for as long as I can in the belly but without forcing it too 
much
4- Let the exhaling air going very slowly on its way out
5- Be one with everything that is going on
 
Mayka 

--- On Thu, 25/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 6:06
  
Hi Mayka,

Not sure that I understand your question.  Let me try...
1.  We inhale as slow as we can, without noise, without moving, continuously, 
deep into our belly.  Don't count the seconds. Feel and sense the breathing 
path.  Six seconds is just reference.  The longer the slower the better.
2.  Then hold in the belly for 3-5 seconds or longer if you can.  Nourish the 
exchange.
3.  Then slowly exhale. Little at a time.  Continuously.  Feel and sense the 
path.

well?  clearer?

Some of us can do 20-25 second cycle.  The longer the better. 

Do compare the breathing of a dog vs a turtle.  Which one lives longer?  :-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/24/2010 7:57 PM, Maria Lopez wrote: 
  
JMJM;
Thanks for sharing this practise.  It's sounds very healthy.  I may have a go 
myself for a week or so to see what's happen.  I always start the sitting down 
with belly breathing in togetherness with awareness of body and mind 
whereabouts. 
 
Questions:
 
1 -How long do you hold the in breath?
2 - Letting it out in 15 seconds and very slowly.  Is the breath forced here 
in its way out by the counting of 15 seconds?
 
Mayka
 
 

--- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  
wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 20:32
  
Hi Siska,

Now that I know you can do belly breathing, try to follow the path of the 
breathing from nose to belly, then hold and exhale in about 15 minutes each 
cycle.  Slowness is critical.  Do not focus on the rise and fall of the 
abdomen.  Feel the freshness of the air into the belly.  Eliminate the label 
of "observer" from your mind, if you can.  Usually a month or two should build 
the foundation.

Then transfer your focus to Navel Chakra, from following the breathing.  Navel 
chakra is about inch or two behind your belly button.  Let your belly 
breathing be natural, automatic by itself.  Place all of your sensitivity and 
attention at Navel Chakra.  Feel it.  

If you can do this for 45 minutes to one hour at a time, would be great.

Let me know what you witness from this practice.

Thanks,
JM
Be Enlightened In This Life - We
 ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/24/2010 4:41 AM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: 
  
Hi JMJM,

Thanks for your suggestions.

Focusing on our 'belly breathing', I suppose is the same with noting the rising 
and falling of our abdomen as we breathe. I did this for a few years some time 
ago and don't feel this type of awareness surpasses duality because here, the 
'observer' is always there observing the breaths.

What do you think?

siska

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:21:44 -0800
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Siska,

The technique we teach during Sitting Chan is to "focus and sense" our belly 
breathing.

This "focus and sense" technique does two things for us.  First, it enables us 
to cultivate our chi and make us healthier, so that we can surpass our physical 
hindrance.  Secondly,  "focus and sense" requires the participation of our 
entire body, meaning our full awareness, or our full being, which is also our 
spiritual being.

Perhaps, you could give it a try for two three month.  As you practice, 
gradually you shall witness.
JM
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/23/2010 4:51 PM, siska_...@yahoo.com w

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

 Hi Ed,

In the year 600, XuanZang, a most famous Chinese monk, well-respected 
Buddhism scholar, went to India in search for Yogacarabhumi sutra, (not 
sure of its correct name).


Chan practice contains many similar parallels to yoga.  I.e. in our 
school we have Dong Chan, or Chan exercise, in addition to Sitting Chan, 
originated from Bodhisdharma, (it was so said).  We exercise before we 
sit down.  Same as yoga.


Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 11/25/2010 6:05 AM, ED wrote:



"The historical records required for a complete, accurate account of 
early Ch¨¢n history no longer exist.^[


Theories about the influence of other schools in the evolution of 
Ch¨¢n are widely variable and rely heavily on speculative correlation 
rather than on written records or histories.


Some scholars have argued that Ch¨¢n developed from the interaction 
between Mah¨¡y¨¡na Buddhism and Taoism.


Some scholars instead argue that Ch¨¢n has roots in yogic practices, 
specifically /kammaá¹­á¹­h¨¡na/, the consideration of objects, and 
/kasiṇa/, total fixation of the mind. A number of other conflicting 
theories exist."


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming wrote:
>
Hi Siska,

The terminology of Chan maybe Buddhist.  The practice of Chan, 
however, originated from Tao, the creator of Qi Gong. :-)


Yet, Sitting Chan practice has its differences from Qi Gong.  I will 
explain when time comes.


Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

 Hi Ed, There are several levels of belly breathing.

   * At the beginning, we recommend practitioner to breathe with
 intended large volume breathing, especially those can not even
 breathe with belly.
   * For a month or two, when they are able to breathe with their
 belly, then we ask them to let it breathe naturally, as per the
 article you find.
   * Then we ask them to abandon their focus on breathing and focus on
 a chakra.
   * Then we ask them to do more advanced breathing..In teaching Chan,
 we usually talk about half step at a time. I have said too much
 already.

What's missing in the article you find is the key component of 
awareness.  The most important objective in belly breathing is to 
cultivate our awareness by following the breathing path, by sensing the 
chi, by noticing our physical conditions.  So that we could be aware the 
activities of our mind and heart and karma.


JMJM

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 11/25/2010 7:13 AM, ED wrote:


JMJM,

Here are some thoughts from a Zen Teacher's Dharma Talk on the subject 
of breathing during zazen:


"Breath is a core component of zazen. Gently settle your breath into 
its natural rhythm. Start your in-breathing from the base of the 
abdomen. Feel the diaphragm rise and fall. Without force, extend your 
out-breath until all the air has been expelled. When the body is ready 
it will respond naturally with a gentle inhalation. The in-breath 
should be exquisitely slow, gentle and steady. Large volumes of air 
are not required to maintain the body during a sit."


--ED

> I was under the impression that the exhale was to take longer than the
> inhale.
>
> --ED


> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming -wrote::
> >
> > Thank you Bill. Yes it is 15 seconds. 6 seconds inhale. hold for 3
> > seconds. 6 seconds out. :-)
> >
> > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> > http://www.heartchan.org

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

ED/Bill,
 
I think 'single-minded sitting' reflects accurately the meaning of shikantaza. 
Others are derivatives.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 9:52 AM


  





Anthony,
Both you and Bill are 'right'.
--ED
 
"Shikantaza is a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and associated 
most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the base of all 
Zen disciplines." 
According to Dôgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting in a state of brightly alert 
attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no object, and attached to no 
particular content—is the highest or purest form of zazen, zazen as it was 
practiced by all the buddhas of the past.
The modern Japanese Zen master, Hakuun Ryôko Yasutani says: "Shikantaza is the 
mind of someone facing death. Let us imagine that you are engaged in a duel of 
swordsmanship of the kind that used to take place in ancient Japan. As you face 
your opponent you are unceasingly watchful, set, ready. Were you to relax your 
vigilance even momentarily, you would be cut down instantly. A crowd gathers to 
see the fight. Since you are not blind you see them from the corner of your 
eye, and since you are not deaf you hear them. But not for an instant is your 
mind captured by these impressions." (Introductory Lectures on Zen Training, 
Kapleau)
The term is believed to have been first used by Dôgen's teacher Tiantong 
Rujing, and it literally means, "nothing but (shikan) precisely (da) sitting 
(za)." In other words Dôgen means by this, "doing only zazen whole-heartedly" 
or "single-minded sitting." Shikantaza implies "just sitting", and according to 
author James Ishmael Ford, "Some trace the root of this word to the 
pronunciation of the Pâli vipassana, though this is far from certain."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill,
>  
> As I already said, shikantaza denotes 'only sit'. The rest are derived 
> meanings. For you the derivative of shikantaza is clear mind.
> Anthony

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[siska_cen]

Hi Ed,

Yes, which is the cause of most sufferings.

siska 
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 03:26:52 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



Hi siska,

Exactly!  Equivalently, Bill might say it's simply a not-flowing with
the way things are in the here and now.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> > Contrary individuals, in their normal state, are the best teachers -
provided one is ready for the teachings.
>
> Reminds me of this:
>
> "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an
understanding of ourselves" (Carl Jung).
>
> siska

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[siska_cen]

Hi Ed,

> Contrary individuals, in their normal state, are the best teachers - provided 
> one is ready for the teachings.

Reminds me of this:

"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of 
ourselves" (Carl Jung).

siska

-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 01:40:49 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



Anthony,

Everybody is a teacher of somebody on some occasion.

Contrary individuals, in their normal state, are the best teachers -
provided one is ready for the teachings. :-)

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Siska,
>
> Thank you for your compliment. I am not a good teacher. How can a man
of low intelligence be a teacher, let alone a good one?
>
> Anthony

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

I think JMJM means 15 seconds, not 15 minutes – unless this is some weirdo 
Tibetan breathing-in-suspended-animation practice…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jue Miao Jing Ming - 
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 3:32 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Siska,

Now that I know you can do belly breathing, try to follow the path of the 
breathing from nose to belly, then hold and exhale in about 15 minutes each 
cycle.  Slowness is critical.  Do not focus on the rise and fall of the 
abdomen.  Feel the freshness of the air into the belly.  Eliminate the label of 
"observer" from your mind, if you can.  Usually a month or two should build the 
foundation.

Then transfer your focus to Navel Chakra, from following the breathing.  Navel 
chakra is about inch or two behind your belly button.  Let your belly breathing 
be natural, automatic by itself.  Place all of your sensitivity and attention 
at Navel Chakra.  Feel it.  

If you can do this for 45 minutes to one hour at a time, would be great.

Let me know what you witness from this practice.

Thanks,
JM
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/24/2010 4:41 AM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: 
  
Hi JMJM,

Thanks for your suggestions.

Focusing on our 'belly breathing', I suppose is the same with noting the rising 
and falling of our abdomen as we breathe. I did this for a few years some time 
ago and don't feel this type of awareness surpasses duality because here, the 
'observer' is always there observing the breaths.

What do you think?

siska

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:21:44 -0800
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Siska,

The technique we teach during Sitting Chan is to "focus and sense" our belly 
breathing.

This "focus and sense" technique does two things for us.  First, it enables us 
to cultivate our chi and make us healthier, so that we can surpass our physical 
hindrance.  Secondly,  "focus and sense" requires the participation of our 
entire body, meaning our full awareness, or our full being, which is also our 
spiritual being.

Perhaps, you could give it a try for two three month.  As you practice, 
gradually you shall witness.
JM
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/23/2010 4:51 PM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: 
  
Hi Bill,

> All you really need to do is sit (zazen) and quiet your mind (cease the 
> workings of your discriminating mind).

To me, it is impossible for me to quiet my mind. When it is quiet, it is quiet. 
When it is not, it is not, no matter what I do, including sitting. Even a 
'noisy' sitting is something to be accepted as is. On the other hand, the mind 
can go quiet just like that for no obvious reason, sometimes not even during 
sitting.

I suppose that's because it is not really *my* mind.

siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:37:08 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,

In your post below what you refer to as the “…un-enlightened mind…” is what I 
usually call the ‘discriminating mind’ or ‘rational mind’ or ‘dualistic mind’. 
And yes, koans cannot be resolved by using this mind. They can only be 
resolved/responded to from Buddha Mind which is what remains after the 
discriminating mind drops away.

Conventionally you should say that it takes a really accomplished teacher and a 
good student to properly use this technique; but a neither a teacher nor koan 
study is absolutely necessary to realize Buddha Nature or experience Samadhi 
(which are pretty much the same thing). All you really need to do is sit 
(zazen) and quiet your mind (cease the workings of your discriminating mind). A 
good teacher and koan study can certainly help do this, but as I said are not 
absolutely necessary.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Siska
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:35 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

I think it is an extremely difficult task to communicate Buddha Nature. On the 
other hand, it is also impossible for this un-enlightened mind to fully 
understand anything described as Buddha Nature because of its limitation. The 
experience/state is beyond convention, while almost everything we experience 
with with this mind (such as language, gestures, etc) are of convention, or at 
least perceived through such frame.

If koan is being used as a tea

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

Below you asked:  “The last part, where the watcher disappears, that doesn't 
seem to be possible to attain at will. The watcher and the will are two sides 
of a coin.  With further practice, is it actually possible?”

It is absolutely possible.  I personally know 20 or more people who have done 
it, and believe 1,000's maybe 100,000's, have done it.  Every time I went to a 
sesshin (meditation retreat) at ZCLE there were 3 or 4 or more people who did 
this.  It is not that uncommon for people who are serious about doing zazen, 
and have a just a competent teacher to get them started.

Above you talk about the 'watcher and the will are two sides of a coin'.  The 
phrase 'two sides of a coin' is a perfect example of dualism.  (I'd actually 
divide it into 'watcher' and 'the thing watched', that's classical subject and 
object, but any division will work for this example.)  There is just one coin.  
It is whole and complete.  Our discriminating mind takes that whole and starts 
to divide that up into pieces, like one side and the other, or the edge and the 
faces, the image on the coin and the date.  That's a natural process of our 
discriminating mind.  That's its job.  In order to get to the state we are 
discussing (samadhi/shikantaza) that dualism has to disappear.  The only way to 
do this is to cease the activity of the discriminating mind (whose job it is to 
create dualism and discrimination).

I sometimes describe this as like using a magnifying glass to focus the sun's 
rays onto a surface - like a table.  You can move the magnifying glass nearer 
or farther from the sun to begin to focus the rays into a smaller and smaller 
point.  This is like focusing you mind on something (like breathing or a mantra 
or a koan).  You adjust the magnifying glass so the beam of light becomes 
smaller and smaller and more intense until you get to a point where the beam of 
light is so intense it can burn the table.  And then if you go just one 
millimeter farther - POOF! - the point of light just disappears.

The above is not a perfect analogy of zazen and concentration and kensho, but 
it has some similarities.

Yes, yes, yes!  You can do this!

Just sit...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:14 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

As I was reading article posted by Ed and your post, I was just wondering,


This process of quieting and centering yourself continues for a while. 

This can be done at will.


You eventually reach a point where you slip into samadhi or single-pointedness 
of mind. The thoughts disappear for a short period of time and you enter into a 
state of mind where you're not processing anything. You're not letting go of 
anything. The watcher disappears. 

The last part, where the watcher disappears, that doesn't seem to be possible 
to attain at will. The watcher and the will are two sides of a coin. 

With further practice, is it actually possible?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:25:48 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,

I can only speak for myself, although I know many others who would agree with 
me when I say that it is not impossible for me to quiet my mind. It was 
difficult at first, but the more I sat (zazen) the closer I got until finally 
it happened – and I am able to enter that state now fairly easily.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:51 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

> All you really need to do is sit (zazen) and quiet your mind (cease the 
> workings of your discriminating mind).

To me, it is impossible for me to quiet my mind. When it is quiet, it is quiet. 
When it is not, it is not, no matter what I do, including sitting. Even a 
'noisy' sitting is something to be accepted as is. On the other hand, the mind 
can go quiet just like that for no obvious reason, sometimes not even during 
sitting.

I suppose that's because it is not really *my* mind.

siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:37:08 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

In your post below what you refer to as the “…un-enlightened mind…” is what I 
usually call the ‘discriminating mind’ or ‘rational mind’ or ‘dualistic mind’. 
And yes, koans cannot be resolved by using

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Siska,
 
Thank you for your compliment. I am not a good teacher. How can a man of low 
intelligence be a teacher, let alone a good one?
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 24/11/10, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 9:58 PM


  



Hi Anthony, 

I think you're a good teacher.

siska


From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 03:20:48 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  






Siska,
 
Yes, it is.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 9:07 AM


  

Anthony,

Is this a koan too?

:-)
siska 


From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 05:35:26 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  






Siska,
 
Whatever Bill says is a koan. Otherwise, no matter it is from God, Allah, 
Buddha, Tony Blair or Hitler, it is no koan.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 21/11/10, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 11:18 PM


  

Hi Anthony, Bill,

I'd be surprised if it has to be historically accurate to be a koan. 

Come to think about it, what makes a story (or perhaps a saying) a koan then?

siska 


From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:13:53 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  



Siska,
 
I don’t mean to jump in for Anthony, but I’d like to respond to this too.
 


Koans are like any other historical or even ancient writings.  This includes 
the Bible.  No one really knows whether the stories are really true, or mostly 
true or a compilation of several different occurrences in to one event or 
attributed to one person.


 

For most stories like these it really doesn’t matter if they’re really true or 
not (unless you’re a fundamentalist 
Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Fill-in-the-Blank).  The story is a teaching tool and 
its historical accuracy is not really the point. 
  
…Bill! 
  



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:55 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
  
  



Hi Anthony,

I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of 
real events. They are not?

siska




From: Anthony Wu  

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 +0800 (SGT)

To: 

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 
  






The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.



 

Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM 

  


Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Ze

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
As I already said, shikantaza denotes 'only sit'. The rest are derived 
meanings. For you the derivative of shikantaza is clear mind. For a taleban 
member, it can result in a comprehensive murder plan.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 24/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 12:25 PM


  



Anthony,

No, the state referred to as ‘shikantaza’ only denotes clear mind. It cannot 
include dreams or plans or thinking of any kind. That is not shikantaza. That 
is dreaming or planning or thinking.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:21 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

ED,

Refers to zazen without any specific focus or technique. So JM's Heart Chan is 
different, as he cultivates 'chi', instead of no technique. I think this is the 
key point that zazen has no focus or technique, while sitting with other 
schools involves manipulating chi, or concentration on an object.

Shikantaza is literally 'just sit'. It can result in varied directions, such as 
clear mind or stillness, as well as sex dreams or comprehensive murder plans.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 10:12 PM


Definitions of shikantaza on the Web: 
• Shikantaza|`üŠÇ`Å�¿ is a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and 
associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the 
base of all Zen disciplines."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza 
• (Japanese): "just sitting"; a state of attention that is free from thoughts, 
directed to no object, and attached to no particular content.
www.kwanumzen.com/misc/glossary.html 
• �gJust sitting.�h Refers to zazen without any specific focus or technique and 
is characterized by intense non-dual awareness.
greatwave.org/glossary-of-zen-terms/

It appears that 'shikantaza' applies to both the zazen practice of striving to 
do 'just sitting' with a clear mind; or it signifies the goal itself of abiding 
in a content-free non-dual awareness.
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> I was definitely told the Japanese word 'shikantaza' meant 'clear mind'. See 
> the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the definition in my post 
> below. Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation of 'just sit' which means you 
> are just sitting and not thinking or doing anything else.


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
只管打坐 is a Chinese phrase pronounced zhiguan dazuo in Chinese, and shikantaza in 
Japanese. You cannot break them down into individual characters and try to work 
out the meaning of the whole phrase, but you can separate them into zhiguan 
(shikan in Japanese) and dazuo (taza). The former denotes 'just manage' or 
'only control', and the latter 'sit (formally)', Your understanding of 'za' 坐 
is correct that it is 'sit'. However, forget the 'ta' 打, as its normal meaning 
is 'beat'. It is redundant or it just adds some emotions. Probably you can 
compare the English expression 'next time around'. The word 'around' can be 
deleted without a change in the idea. 
 
The 'shi' in 'shikan' is not 'white'. The color is expressed with a different 
character 白
 
anthony
 
 
HHS1963.org> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 9:57 AM


  



Anthony,

I have more questions for you – and one’s I think you can answer:

1. Is ‘zhiguan dazuo’ a transliteration of the Chinese pronunciation?

ASSUMING ‘shikantaza’ is the transliteration of the Japanese term:

I've always thought 'za' meant 'to sit' and maybe even 'to sit meditation'. I 
deduced this from the common Japanese terms used in the zendo such as 'zafu' 
(za=sit, fu=pillow?) and 'zabuton' (za=sit, buton=cushion or mat). I've also 
deduced that 'shi' means 'white', like 'maguro shiro' (maguro=tuna, shiro=white 
or white color?) and 'miso shiro' (miso=soybean paste, shiro=white or white 
color).

All this would lead me to believe that 'shikantaza' means a lot more than 'just 
sit'. I've always assumed it meant something like 'shi-kan' = 
-white?-something(mind?) and 'ta-za' = something (only?)-sit (?).

So, in 'shikantaza':
2. What does 'shi' mean? White?
3. What does 'kan' mean? Mind?
4. What does 'ta' mean? Only?
5. What does 'za' mean? Sit? Meditate?

6. If my assumptions are way off base, what do the individual syllables 
(ideographs) mean in the term 只管打坐 (or whatever they are).

AND ANYONE ELSE out there that speaks Japanese or Chinese, please feel free to 
comment.

Thanks...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:07 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Bill,

Shikantaza (zhiguan dazuo) is literally 'just sit'. Samadhi. clear mind, 
daydreaming or exasperation can be the result of shikandaza.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 7:47 AM

Anthony,

Thanks for the translation.

I was definitely told the Japanese word ‘shikantaza’ meant ‘clear mind’. See 
the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the definition in my post 
below. Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation of ‘just sit’ which means you 
are just sitting and not thinking or doing anything else. 

That works for me. 

What is your opinion on the similarity between the terms ‘shikantaza’ and 
‘samadhi’? Do you think they are trying to describe the same experience? 

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


Bill,

I almost agree in a wholesale way all you say below, except for one:

shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) is a Chinese word denoting 'just sit (formally)', It 
is just a technique, and the other ideas you state in relation are 'derived 
meanings'.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 10:47 PM 

ED,

My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of 
which I am familiar are Japanese.

These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and 
persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.

Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just THIS!'. Clear 
Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. Wikipedia defines shikantaza 
as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and 
associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, bu

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

No, the state referred to as ‘shikantaza’ only denotes clear mind.  It cannot 
include dreams or plans or thinking of any kind.  That is not shikantaza.  That 
is dreaming or planning or thinking.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:21 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
ED,
 
Refers to zazen without any specific focus or technique. So JM's Heart Chan is 
different, as he cultivates 'chi', instead of no technique. I think this is the 
key point that zazen has no focus or technique, while sitting with other 
schools involves manipulating chi, or concentration on an object.
 
Shikantaza is literally 'just sit'. It can result in varied directions, such as 
clear mind or stillness, as well as sex dreams or comprehensive murder plans.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 10:12 PM
  

 
Definitions of shikantaza on the Web: 
• Shikantaza|`üŠÇ`Å�¿ is a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and 
associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the 
base of all Zen disciplines."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza 
• (Japanese): "just sitting"; a state of attention that is free from thoughts, 
directed to no object, and attached to no particular content.
www.kwanumzen.com/misc/glossary.html 
• �gJust sitting.�h Refers to zazen without any specific focus or technique and 
is characterized by intense non-dual awareness.
greatwave.org/glossary-of-zen-terms/
 
It appears that 'shikantaza' applies to both the zazen practice of striving to 
do 'just sitting' with a clear mind;  or it signifies the goal itself of 
abiding in a content-free non-dual awareness.
 --ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> I was definitely told the Japanese word 'shikantaza' meant 'clear mind'. See 
> the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the definition in my post 
> below. Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation of 'just sit' which means you 
> are just sitting and not thinking or doing anything else.
 




__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

I can only speak for myself, although I know many others who would agree with 
me when I say that it is not impossible for me to quiet my mind.  It was 
difficult at first, but the more I sat (zazen) the closer I got until finally 
it happened – and I am able to enter that state now fairly easily.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:51 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

> All you really need to do is sit (zazen) and quiet your mind (cease the 
> workings of your discriminating mind).

To me, it is impossible for me to quiet my mind. When it is quiet, it is quiet. 
When it is not, it is not, no matter what I do, including sitting. Even a 
'noisy' sitting is something to be accepted as is. On the other hand, the mind 
can go quiet just like that for no obvious reason, sometimes not even during 
sitting.

I suppose that's because it is not really *my* mind.

siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:37:08 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,

In your post below what you refer to as the “…un-enlightened mind…” is what I 
usually call the ‘discriminating mind’ or ‘rational mind’ or ‘dualistic mind’. 
And yes, koans cannot be resolved by using this mind. They can only be 
resolved/responded to from Buddha Mind which is what remains after the 
discriminating mind drops away.

Conventionally you should say that it takes a really accomplished teacher and a 
good student to properly use this technique; but a neither a teacher nor koan 
study is absolutely necessary to realize Buddha Nature or experience Samadhi 
(which are pretty much the same thing). All you really need to do is sit 
(zazen) and quiet your mind (cease the workings of your discriminating mind). A 
good teacher and koan study can certainly help do this, but as I said are not 
absolutely necessary.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Siska
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:35 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

I think it is an extremely difficult task to communicate Buddha Nature. On the 
other hand, it is also impossible for this un-enlightened mind to fully 
understand anything described as Buddha Nature because of its limitation. The 
experience/state is beyond convention, while almost everything we experience 
with with this mind (such as language, gestures, etc) are of convention, or at 
least perceived through such frame.

If koan is being used as a teaching tool, I imagine it takes a really 
accomplished teacher to do this properly. And perhaps, a good student too.

siska

--- On Fri, 19/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:02

Siska,

There are no prescribed ‘techniques’ for communicating Buddha Nature, which is 
the attempt of all koans. The communication has to be spontaneous and come 
directly from Buddha Nature. Sometimes it is a sentence or two. Sometimes it is 
just one or two words. Sometimes it is just a sound. Sometimes it’s a gesture 
or even just silence. There is no ‘right’ way, although not just any response 
is acceptable.

In the last two koans below the same zen master, Nansen, responded to the same 
question: ‘What is the Way?’ in two different and seemingly contradictory way. 
(‘What is the Way?’ is asking something like ‘How can I become enlightened?’, 
or ‘How can I experience Buddha Nature?’. ) In the first he says: ‘Ordinary 
mind is the Way’. In the second he says, “Mind is not Buddha, knowing is not 
the Way”.

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:46 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the koans.

What is the communication technique in the last two koans?

I think I've read some sufi stories before, but can't remember anything similar 
to koans at the moment. I'll share the story when I remember.

siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 10:29:31 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

JMJM,

I have always thought shikantaza meant 'just sit', and to me the 'just' could 
be reinforced by thinking of it as 'clear mind', since when you're sitting the 
thing that is the most troublesome and difficult to quiet is the activity of 
the mind.  That's why I've always thought of it as 'clear mind'.

I'm still curious as to what each individual ideogram means.  That's sometimes 
helpful in trying to figure out the nuances of the term.

Thanks for your information...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Jue Miao Jing Ming - 
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:27 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Cc: billsm...@hhs1963.org
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

I speak both Chinese and Japanese fluently.  Shigantaza is "Just Manage Act 
Sit" literally.

Yet it does not matter.  Zen is a practice.  Everything about Zen is initiated 
through this practice.  Or through this practice, one shall experience 
everything as described.

All sutra are the description of the journey of Shigantaza.  Bible is the 
description of the journey of Jesus.  Studying, chanting, memorizing the sutra 
or the bible is not the practice.

You were perfect in mentioning, Just Sit.  I would do the same.

:-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/23/2010 5:57 PM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: 
  
Anthony,

I have more questions for you – and one’s I think you can answer:

1. Is ‘zhiguan dazuo’ a transliteration of the Chinese pronunciation?

ASSUMING ‘shikantaza’ is the transliteration of the Japanese term:

I've always thought 'za' meant 'to sit' and maybe even 'to sit meditation'. I 
deduced this from the common Japanese terms used in the zendo such as 'zafu' 
(za=sit, fu=pillow?) and 'zabuton' (za=sit, buton=cushion or mat). I've also 
deduced that 'shi' means 'white', like 'maguro shiro' (maguro=tuna, shiro=white 
or white color?) and 'miso shiro' (miso=soybean paste, shiro=white or white 
color).

All this would lead me to believe that 'shikantaza' means a lot more than 'just 
sit'. I've always assumed it meant something like 'shi-kan' = 
-white?-something(mind?) and 'ta-za' = something (only?)-sit (?).

So, in 'shikantaza':
2. What does 'shi' mean? White?
3. What does 'kan' mean? Mind?
4. What does 'ta' mean? Only?
5. What does 'za' mean? Sit? Meditate?

6. If my assumptions are way off base, what do the individual syllables 
(ideographs) mean in the term 只管打坐 (or whatever they are).

AND ANYONE ELSE out there that speaks Japanese or Chinese, please feel free to 
comment.

Thanks...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:07 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Bill,

Shikantaza (zhiguan dazuo) is literally 'just sit'. Samadhi. clear mind, 
daydreaming or exasperation can be the result of shikandaza.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 7:47 AM

Anthony,

Thanks for the translation.

I was definitely told the Japanese word ‘shikantaza’ meant ‘clear mind’. See 
the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the definition in my post 
below. Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation of ‘just sit’ which means you 
are just sitting and not thinking or doing anything else. 

That works for me. 

What is your opinion on the similarity between the terms ‘shikantaza’ and 
‘samadhi’? Do you think they are trying to describe the same experience? 

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


Bill,

I almost agree in a wholesale way all you say below, except for one:

shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) is a Chinese word denoting 'just sit (formally)', It 
is just a technique, and the other ideas you state in relation are 'derived 
meanings'.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 10:47 PM 

ED,

My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of 
which I am familiar are Japanese.

These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Budd

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

 Hi Bill,

I speak both Chinese and Japanese fluently.  Shigantaza is "Just Manage 
Act Sit" literally.


Yet it does not matter.  Zen is a practice.  Everything about Zen is 
initiated through this practice.  Or through this practice, one shall 
experience everything as described.


All sutra are the description of the journey of Shigantaza.  Bible is 
the description of the journey of Jesus.  Studying, chanting, memorizing 
the sutra or the bible is not the practice.


You were perfect in mentioning, Just Sit.  I would do the same.

:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 11/23/2010 5:57 PM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:


Anthony,

I have more questions for you – and one’s I think you can answer:

1. Is ‘zhiguan dazuo’ a transliteration of the Chinese pronunciation?

ASSUMING ‘shikantaza’ is the transliteration of the Japanese term:

I've always thought 'za' meant 'to sit' and maybe even 'to sit 
meditation'. I deduced this from the common Japanese terms used in the 
zendo such as 'zafu' (za=sit, fu=pillow?) and 'zabuton' (za=sit, 
buton=cushion or mat). I've also deduced that 'shi' means 'white', 
like 'maguro shiro' (maguro=tuna, shiro=white or white color?) and 
'miso shiro' (miso=soybean paste, shiro=white or white color).


All this would lead me to believe that 'shikantaza' means a lot more 
than 'just sit'. I've always assumed it meant something like 'shi-kan' 
= -white?-something(mind?) and 'ta-za' = something (only?)-sit (?).


So, in 'shikantaza':
2. What does 'shi' mean? White?
3. What does 'kan' mean? Mind?
4. What does 'ta' mean? Only?
5. What does 'za' mean? Sit? Meditate?

6. If my assumptions are way off base, what do the individual 
syllables (ideographs) mean in the term 只管打坐 (or whatever they are).


AND ANYONE ELSE out there that speaks Japanese or Chinese, please feel 
free to comment.


Thanks...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu

Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:07 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Bill,

Shikantaza (zhiguan dazuo) is literally 'just sit'. Samadhi. clear 
mind, daydreaming or exasperation can be the result of shikandaza.


Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org 
<mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> <mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> 
mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>>

Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 7:47 AM

Anthony,

Thanks for the translation.

I was definitely told the Japanese word ‘shikantaza’ meant ‘clear 
mind’. See the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the 
definition in my post below. Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation 
of ‘just sit’ which means you are just sitting and not thinking or 
doing anything else.


That works for me.

What is your opinion on the similarity between the terms ‘shikantaza’ 
and ‘samadhi’? Do you think they are trying to describe the same 
experience?


…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu

Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


Bill,

I almost agree in a wholesale way all you say below, except for one:

shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) is a Chinese word denoting 'just sit 
(formally)', It is just a technique, and the other ideas you state in 
relation are 'derived meanings'.


Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org 
<mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> <mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> 
mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>>

Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 10:47 PM

ED,

My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the 
terms of which I am familiar are Japanese.


These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting 
and persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.


Shikantaza: 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

I have more questions for you – and one’s I think you can answer:

1.  Is ‘zhiguan dazuo’ a transliteration of the Chinese pronunciation?

ASSUMING ‘shikantaza’ is the transliteration of the Japanese term:

I've always thought 'za' meant 'to sit' and maybe even 'to sit meditation'.  I 
deduced this from the common Japanese terms used in the zendo such as 'zafu' 
(za=sit, fu=pillow?) and 'zabuton' (za=sit, buton=cushion or mat).  I've also 
deduced that 'shi' means 'white', like 'maguro shiro' (maguro=tuna, shiro=white 
or white color?) and 'miso shiro' (miso=soybean paste, shiro=white or white 
color).

All this would lead me to believe that 'shikantaza' means a lot more than 'just 
sit'.  I've always assumed it meant something like 'shi-kan' = 
-white?-something(mind?) and 'ta-za' = something (only?)-sit (?).

So, in 'shikantaza':
2.  What does 'shi' mean?  White?
3.  What does 'kan' mean?  Mind?
4.  What does 'ta' mean?  Only?
5.  What does 'za' mean?  Sit?  Meditate?

6.  If my assumptions are way off base, what do the individual syllables 
(ideographs) mean in the term 只管打坐 (or whatever they are).

AND ANYONE ELSE out there that speaks Japanese or Chinese, please feel free to 
comment.

Thanks...Bill!


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:07 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Bill,
 
Shikantaza (zhiguan dazuo) is literally 'just sit'. Samadhi. clear mind, 
daydreaming or exasperation can be the result of shikandaza.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 7:47 AM
  
Anthony,
 
Thanks for the translation.
 
I was definitely told the Japanese word ‘shikantaza’ meant ‘clear mind’.  See 
the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the definition in my post 
below.  Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation of ‘just sit’ which means you 
are just sitting and not thinking or doing anything else. 
  
That works for me. 
  
What is your opinion on the similarity between the terms ‘shikantaza’ and 
‘samadhi’?  Do you think they are trying to describe the same experience? 
  
…Bill! 
  
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
  
  
Bill,
 
I almost agree in a wholesale way all you say below, except for one:
 
shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) is a Chinese word denoting 'just sit (formally)', It 
is just a technique, and the other ideas you state in relation are 'derived 
meanings'.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 10:47 PM 
  
ED,

My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of 
which I am familiar are Japanese.

These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and 
persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.

Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just THIS!'. Clear 
Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. Wikipedia defines shikantaza 
as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and 
associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the 
base of all Zen disciplines." According to Dōgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting 
in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no 
object, and attached to no particular content—is the highest or purest form of 
zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. 

Samadhi: I am familiar with this term only from reading. It always seemed to me 
to be the same as shikantaza. Wikipedia defines samadhi as: "...a non-dualistic 
state of consciousness in which the consciousness of the experiencing subject 
becomes one with the experienced object, and in which the mind becomes still, 
one-pointed or concentrated though the person remains conscious. In Buddhism, 
it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not 
merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain 
insight into the changing flow of experience."

The Thai's use the term 'samadhi' to refer to Theravada Buddhist meditation. 
They 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

ED, et al…

I agree with what ED said below with a little caveat – Zen Masters can’t all
read you ‘like an open book’.  Maybe liked a closed book that they have to
look at several pages before they make their decision.  I went through koan
study with two different (but associate) zen masters and most times,
especially in the beginning, I had to respond several times on consecutive
days before a response was accepted.  And even then they might ask further
questions or demand more detail in the response before they accepted it.

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 10:09 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
 
My belief about a koan is that your response, verbal and/or non-verbal, and
your body language in particular, confirms in the Zen Master (who can read
you like an open book in any case) as to the state of evolution of your
heart-mind.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill, 
> 
> Yes, I suppose I was speaking only for myself. I should really look up for
this 'Mu', it's been mentioned so often in this forum. 
> 
> siska 
> Siska, 
> 
> The historical stories of koans are full of verbal responses. Like 'The
Oak Tree in the Garden', or  'A dried shit-stick', or the most famous of all
'Mu' .Bill! 
 
> Hi Bill, 
> 
> > They are usually delivered as a question (What is X?) or a request (Show
me Y.). 
> 
> This was also mentioned in the article Ed posted. I can't imagine any
words able to represent the responds to all those koans. 
> 
> siska 
 
> Siska, 
> 
> A koan doesn't have to be either historical or a story. Current zen
teachers very frequently create a koan especially tailored to address what
they feel are inadequacies of a particular students. 
> These probably wouldn't be delivered in story form. They are usually
delivered as a question (What is X?) or a request (Show me Y.). You don't
read much about these because they are a very personal communication between
the teacher and student. 
> 
> The koans generally referred to are historical stories, accounts of the
actions especially interactions of historical zen masters. The two most
referenced works containing koans such as these are THE GATELESS GATE and
THE BLUE CLIFF RECORD. 
> 
> The quality that makes a koan a koan is that it is a direct expression of
Buddha Nature. 
> 
> ...Bill! 

 



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5643 (20101123) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

ED,
 
Refers to zazen without any specific focus or technique. So JM's Heart Chan is 
different, as he cultivates 'chi', instead of no technique. I think this is the 
key point that zazen has no focus or technique, while sitting with other 
schools involves manipulating chi, or concentration on an object.
 
Shikantaza is literally 'just sit'. It can result in varied directions, such as 
clear mind or stillness, as well as sex dreams or comprehensive murder plans.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 10:12 PM


  





 
Definitions of shikantaza on the Web: 

Shikantaza|`üŠÇ`Å�¿ is a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and 
associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the 
base of all Zen disciplines."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza 

(Japanese): "just sitting"; a state of attention that is free from thoughts, 
directed to no object, and attached to no particular content.
www.kwanumzen.com/misc/glossary.html 

�gJust sitting.�h Refers to zazen without any specific focus or technique and 
is characterized by intense non-dual awareness.
greatwave.org/glossary-of-zen-terms/
 
It appears that 'shikantaza' applies to both the zazen practice of striving to 
do 'just sitting' with a clear mind;  or it signifies the goal itself of 
abiding in a content-free non-dual awareness.
 --ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> I was definitely told the Japanese word 'shikantaza' meant 'clear mind'. See 
> the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the definition in my post 
> below. Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation of 'just sit' which means you 
> are just sitting and not thinking or doing anything else.
 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

No, you have it just backwards.  Shikantaza can be the result of daydreaming or 
exasperation…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:07 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Bill,
 
Shikantaza (zhiguan dazuo) is literally 'just sit'. Samadhi. clear mind, 
daydreaming or exasperation can be the result of shikandaza.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 7:47 AM
  
Anthony,
 
Thanks for the translation.
 
I was definitely told the Japanese word ‘shikantaza’ meant ‘clear mind’.  See 
the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the definition in my post 
below.  Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation of ‘just sit’ which means you 
are just sitting and not thinking or doing anything else. 
  
That works for me. 
  
What is your opinion on the similarity between the terms ‘shikantaza’ and 
‘samadhi’?  Do you think they are trying to describe the same experience? 
  
…Bill! 
  
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
  
  
Bill,
 
I almost agree in a wholesale way all you say below, except for one:
 
shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) is a Chinese word denoting 'just sit (formally)', It 
is just a technique, and the other ideas you state in relation are 'derived 
meanings'.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 10:47 PM 
  
ED,

My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of 
which I am familiar are Japanese.

These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and 
persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.

Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just THIS!'. Clear 
Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. Wikipedia defines shikantaza 
as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and 
associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the 
base of all Zen disciplines." According to Dōgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting 
in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no 
object, and attached to no particular content—is the highest or purest form of 
zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. 

Samadhi: I am familiar with this term only from reading. It always seemed to me 
to be the same as shikantaza. Wikipedia defines samadhi as: "...a non-dualistic 
state of consciousness in which the consciousness of the experiencing subject 
becomes one with the experienced object, and in which the mind becomes still, 
one-pointed or concentrated though the person remains conscious. In Buddhism, 
it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not 
merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain 
insight into the changing flow of experience."

The Thai's use the term 'samadhi' to refer to Theravada Buddhist meditation. 
They have a different word 'glai-glia' to refer to other types of mediation.

>From my experience Clear Mind/shikantaza (samadhi?) and kensho/satori are 
>virtually the same. The only difference is that kensho/satori denotes the 
>point that you become AWARE of Clear Mind (samadhi?). So if you have to put 
>them in some kind of time sequence, first there is Clear Mind without 
>awareness, then Kensho/Satori which is the realization/awareness of Clear 
>Mind, and then Clear Mind continues with awareness.

Koans, in my experience, are used as a tool to stop the rational, 
discriminating mind's activities. It is only in this state than kensho/satori 
can occur. There are other ways to stop the discriminating mind such as just 
sitting (zazen). Eventually you will reach the state of shikantaza (samadhi?) 
in which a pure awareness can arise. This I call Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. 

All of the above occurs IN THE ABSENCE of thinking/rationality/cognition. Part 
of zen practice AFTER kensho is to re-integrate thinking/rationality/cognition 
WITHOUT forming attachments to the concepts generated by thinking.

Having said all this I have to add the following caveat which is a paraphrase 
of Genjo's caveat on the 5 subdivisions of koans: 'any number of subdivisions 
and t

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

The historical stories of koans are full of verbal responses.  Like ‘The Oak 
Tree in the Garden’, or ‘A dried shit-stick’, or the most famous of all 
‘Mu’….Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:49 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

> They are usually delivered as a question (What is X?) or a request (Show me 
> Y.). 

This was also mentioned in the article Ed posted. I can't imagine any words 
able to represent the responds to all those koans.

siska 

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:55:09 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,

A koan doesn’t have to be either historical or a story. Current zen teachers 
very frequently create a koan especially tailored to address what they feel are 
inadequacies of a particular students. These probably wouldn't be delivered in 
story form. They are usually delivered as a question (What is X?) or a request 
(Show me Y.). You don't read much about these because they are a very personal 
communication between the teacher and student.

The koans generally referred to are historical stories, accounts of the actions 
especially interactions of historical zen masters. The two most referenced 
works containing koans such as these are THE GATELESS GATE and THE BLUE CLIFF 
RECORD.

The quality that makes a koan a koan is that it is a direct expression of 
Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:18 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Anthony, Bill,

I'd be surprised if it has to be historically accurate to be a koan. 

Come to think about it, what makes a story (or perhaps a saying) a koan then?

siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:13:53 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I don’t mean to jump in for Anthony, but I’d like to respond to this too.

Koans are like any other historical or even ancient writings. This includes the 
Bible. No one really knows whether the stories are really true, or mostly true 
or a compilation of several different occurrences in to one event or attributed 
to one person.

For most stories like these it really doesn’t matter if they’re really true or 
not (unless you’re a fundamentalist 
Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Fill-in-the-Blank). The story is a teaching tool and 
its historical accuracy is not really the point.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:55 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


Hi Anthony,

I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of 
real events. They are not?

siska

From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.

Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Wa

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
Shikantaza (zhiguan dazuo) is literally 'just sit'. Samadhi. clear mind, 
daydreaming or exasperation can be the result of shikandaza.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 7:47 AM


  





Anthony,
 
Thanks for the translation.
 
I was definitely told the Japanese word ‘shikantaza’ meant ‘clear mind’.  See 
the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the definition in my post 
below.  Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation of ‘just sit’ which means you 
are just sitting and not thinking or doing anything else.
 
That works for me.
 
What is your opinion on the similarity between the terms ‘shikantaza’ and 
‘samadhi’?  Do you think they are trying to describe the same experience?
 
…Bill!
 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
 
  








Bill,

 

I almost agree in a wholesale way all you say below, except for one:

 

shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) is a Chinese word denoting 'just sit (formally)', It 
is just a technique, and the other ideas you state in relation are 'derived 
meanings'.

 

Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 10:47 PM

  


ED,

My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of 
which I am familiar are Japanese.

These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and 
persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.

Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just THIS!'. Clear 
Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. Wikipedia defines shikantaza 
as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and 
associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the 
base of all Zen disciplines." According to Dōgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting 
in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no 
object, and attached to no particular content—is the highest or purest form of 
zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. 

Samadhi: I am familiar with this term only from reading. It always seemed to me 
to be the same as shikantaza. Wikipedia defines samadhi as: "...a non-dualistic 
state of consciousness in which the consciousness of the experiencing subject 
becomes one with the experienced object, and in which the mind becomes still, 
one-pointed or concentrated though the person remains conscious. In Buddhism, 
it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not 
merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain 
insight into the changing flow of experience."

The Thai's use the term 'samadhi' to refer to Theravada Buddhist meditation. 
They have a different word 'glai-glia' to refer to other types of mediation.

>From my experience Clear Mind/shikantaza (samadhi?) and kensho/satori are 
>virtually the same. The only difference is that kensho/satori denotes the 
>point that you become AWARE of Clear Mind (samadhi?). So if you have to put 
>them in some kind of time sequence, first there is Clear Mind without 
>awareness, then Kensho/Satori which is the realization/awareness of Clear 
>Mind, and then Clear Mind continues with awareness.

Koans, in my experience, are used as a tool to stop the rational, 
discriminating mind's activities. It is only in this state than kensho/satori 
can occur. There are other ways to stop the discriminating mind such as just 
sitting (zazen). Eventually you will reach the state of shikantaza (samadhi?) 
in which a pure awareness can arise. This I call Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. 

All of the above occurs IN THE ABSENCE of thinking/rationality/cognition. Part 
of zen practice AFTER kensho is to re-integrate thinking/rationality/cognition 
WITHOUT forming attachments to the concepts generated by thinking.

Having said all this I have to add the following caveat which is a paraphrase 
of Genjo's caveat on the 5 subdivisions of koans: 'any number of subdivisions 
and terms describing zen practice and awareness states could be devised, and 
all are ultimately meaningless. Zen is everyday life. Zen is nothing special. 
Zen is "Only Don't Know!". Zen is Just THIS!'

This is my experience.

...Bill! 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.co

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

 

Thanks for the translation.

 

I was definitely told the Japanese word ‘shikantaza’ meant ‘clear mind’.  See 
the quotes attributed to Rujing and Dogen Zenji in the definition in my post 
below.  Perhaps it is an extreme interpretation of ‘just sit’ which means you 
are just sitting and not thinking or doing anything else.

 

That works for me.

 

What is your opinion on the similarity between the terms ‘shikantaza’ and 
‘samadhi’?  Do you think they are trying to describe the same experience?

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  


Bill,

 

I almost agree in a wholesale way all you say below, except for one:

 

shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) is a Chinese word denoting 'just sit (formally)', It 
is just a technique, and the other ideas you state in relation are 'derived 
meanings'.

 

Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 10:47 PM

  

ED,

My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of 
which I am familiar are Japanese.

These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and 
persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.

Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just THIS!'. Clear 
Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. Wikipedia defines shikantaza 
as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and 
associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the 
base of all Zen disciplines." According to Dōgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting 
in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no 
object, and attached to no particular content—is the highest or purest form of 
zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. 

Samadhi: I am familiar with this term only from reading. It always seemed to me 
to be the same as shikantaza. Wikipedia defines samadhi as: "...a non-dualistic 
state of consciousness in which the consciousness of the experiencing subject 
becomes one with the experienced object, and in which the mind becomes still, 
one-pointed or concentrated though the person remains conscious. In Buddhism, 
it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not 
merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain 
insight into the changing flow of experience."

The Thai's use the term 'samadhi' to refer to Theravada Buddhist meditation. 
They have a different word 'glai-glia' to refer to other types of mediation.

>From my experience Clear Mind/shikantaza (samadhi?) and kensho/satori are 
>virtually the same. The only difference is that kensho/satori denotes the 
>point that you become AWARE of Clear Mind (samadhi?). So if you have to put 
>them in some kind of time sequence, first there is Clear Mind without 
>awareness, then Kensho/Satori which is the realization/awareness of Clear 
>Mind, and then Clear Mind continues with awareness.

Koans, in my experience, are used as a tool to stop the rational, 
discriminating mind's activities. It is only in this state than kensho/satori 
can occur. There are other ways to stop the discriminating mind such as just 
sitting (zazen). Eventually you will reach the state of shikantaza (samadhi?) 
in which a pure awareness can arise. This I call Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. 

All of the above occurs IN THE ABSENCE of thinking/rationality/cognition. Part 
of zen practice AFTER kensho is to re-integrate thinking/rationality/cognition 
WITHOUT forming attachments to the concepts generated by thinking.

Having said all this I have to add the following caveat which is a paraphrase 
of Genjo's caveat on the 5 subdivisions of koans: 'any number of subdivisions 
and terms describing zen practice and awareness states could be devised, and 
all are ultimately meaningless. Zen is everyday life. Zen is nothing special. 
Zen is "Only Don't Know!". Zen is Just THIS!'

This is my experience.

...Bill! 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ] On 
Behalf Of ED
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:50 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Tho

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
I almost agree in a wholesale way all you say below, except for one:
 
shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) is a Chinese word denoting 'just sit (formally)', It 
is just a technique, and the other ideas you state in relation are 'derived 
meanings'.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 10:47 PM


  



ED,

My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of 
which I am familiar are Japanese.

These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and 
persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.

Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just THIS!'. Clear 
Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. Wikipedia defines shikantaza 
as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and 
associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the 
base of all Zen disciplines." According to Dōgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting 
in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no 
object, and attached to no particular content—is the highest or purest form of 
zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. 

Samadhi: I am familiar with this term only from reading. It always seemed to me 
to be the same as shikantaza. Wikipedia defines samadhi as: "...a non-dualistic 
state of consciousness in which the consciousness of the experiencing subject 
becomes one with the experienced object, and in which the mind becomes still, 
one-pointed or concentrated though the person remains conscious. In Buddhism, 
it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not 
merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain 
insight into the changing flow of experience."

The Thai's use the term 'samadhi' to refer to Theravada Buddhist meditation. 
They have a different word 'glai-glia' to refer to other types of mediation.

>From my experience Clear Mind/shikantaza (samadhi?) and kensho/satori are 
>virtually the same. The only difference is that kensho/satori denotes the 
>point that you become AWARE of Clear Mind (samadhi?). So if you have to put 
>them in some kind of time sequence, first there is Clear Mind without 
>awareness, then Kensho/Satori which is the realization/awareness of Clear 
>Mind, and then Clear Mind continues with awareness.

Koans, in my experience, are used as a tool to stop the rational, 
discriminating mind's activities. It is only in this state than kensho/satori 
can occur. There are other ways to stop the discriminating mind such as just 
sitting (zazen). Eventually you will reach the state of shikantaza (samadhi?) 
in which a pure awareness can arise. This I call Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. 

All of the above occurs IN THE ABSENCE of thinking/rationality/cognition. Part 
of zen practice AFTER kensho is to re-integrate thinking/rationality/cognition 
WITHOUT forming attachments to the concepts generated by thinking.

Having said all this I have to add the following caveat which is a paraphrase 
of Genjo's caveat on the 5 subdivisions of koans: 'any number of subdivisions 
and terms describing zen practice and awareness states could be devised, and 
all are ultimately meaningless. Zen is everyday life. Zen is nothing special. 
Zen is "Only Don't Know!". Zen is Just THIS!'

This is my experience.

...Bill! 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
ED
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:50 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Bill, 
Dr James Austin in his book 'Zen-Brain Reflection', labels the states that 
occur after the makyo states but prior to kensho-satori states as absorption or 
Samadhi states, and asserts that these are not kensho-satori states.
These Samadhi states as decribed by Dr Austin appear to be none other than the 
states labeled in Theravada buddhism as Jhana states.
See article below on Jhana states.
--ED

Definitions of jhana in theravada on the Web: 
• JhÄna (PÄli: à¤à¤¨; Sanskrit: धà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤¨ DhyÄna) is a meditative state of 
profound stillness and concentration. It is sometimes taught as an abiding in 
which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen object of 
attention,characterized by non-dual consciousness. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana_in_Theravada

Excerpt from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana_in_Theravada 
"DhyÄna in the early sutras
In the early texts, it is taught as a state of collected, full-body awareness 
in which mind becomes ver

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Siska,
 
Yes, it is.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 9:07 AM


  



Anthony,

Is this a koan too?

:-)
siska


From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 05:35:26 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  






Siska,
 
Whatever Bill says is a koan. Otherwise, no matter it is from God, Allah, 
Buddha, Tony Blair or Hitler, it is no koan.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 21/11/10, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 11:18 PM


  

Hi Anthony, Bill,

I'd be surprised if it has to be historically accurate to be a koan. 

Come to think about it, what makes a story (or perhaps a saying) a koan then?

siska 


From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:13:53 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  



Siska,
 
I don’t mean to jump in for Anthony, but I’d like to respond to this too.
 
Koans are like any other historical or even ancient writings.  This includes 
the Bible.  No one really knows whether the stories are really true, or mostly 
true or a compilation of several different occurrences in to one event or 
attributed to one person.
 
For most stories like these it really doesn’t matter if they’re really true or 
not (unless you’re a fundamentalist 
Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Fill-in-the-Blank).  The story is a teaching tool and 
its historical accuracy is not really the point. 
  
…Bill! 
  



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:55 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
  
  



Hi Anthony,

I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of 
real events. They are not?

siska




From: Anthony Wu  

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 +0800 (SGT)

To: 

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 
  






The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.


 

Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM 

  


Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

ED,

My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of 
which I am familiar are Japanese.

These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

Kensho:  A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

Satori:  Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and 
persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.

Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness.  I call this state 'Just THIS!'.  
Clear Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature.  Wikipedia defines 
shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing 
and associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is 
"the base of all Zen disciplines."  According to Dōgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. 
resting in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, 
directed to no object, and attached to no particular content—is the highest or 
purest form of zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. 
 

Samadhi:  I am familiar with this term only from reading.  It always seemed to 
me to be the same as shikantaza.  Wikipedia defines samadhi as:  "...a 
non-dualistic state of consciousness in which the consciousness of the 
experiencing subject becomes one with the experienced object, and in which the 
mind becomes still, one-pointed or concentrated though the person remains 
conscious. In Buddhism, it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes 
very still but does not merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to 
observe and gain insight into the changing flow of experience."

The Thai's use the term 'samadhi' to refer to Theravada Buddhist meditation.  
They have a different word 'glai-glia' to refer to other types of mediation.

>From my experience Clear Mind/shikantaza (samadhi?) and kensho/satori are 
>virtually the same.  The only difference is that kensho/satori denotes the 
>point that you become AWARE of Clear Mind (samadhi?).  So if you have to put 
>them in some kind of time sequence, first there is Clear Mind without 
>awareness, then Kensho/Satori which is the realization/awareness of Clear 
>Mind, and then Clear Mind continues with awareness.

Koans, in my experience, are used as a tool to stop the rational, 
discriminating mind's activities.  It is only in this state than kensho/satori 
can occur.  There are other ways to stop the discriminating mind such as just 
sitting (zazen).  Eventually you will reach the state of shikantaza (samadhi?) 
in which a pure awareness can arise.  This I call Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. 

All of the above occurs IN THE ABSENCE of thinking/rationality/cognition.  Part 
of zen practice AFTER kensho is to re-integrate thinking/rationality/cognition 
WITHOUT forming attachments to the concepts generated by thinking.

Having said all this I have to add the following caveat which is a paraphrase 
of Genjo's caveat on the 5 subdivisions of koans: 'any number of subdivisions 
and terms describing zen practice and awareness states could be devised, and 
all are ultimately meaningless.  Zen is everyday life.  Zen is nothing special. 
 Zen is "Only Don't Know!".  Zen is Just THIS!'

This is my experience.

...Bill! 
  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
ED
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:50 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
 
Bill, 
Dr James Austin in his book 'Zen-Brain Reflection', labels the states that 
occur after the makyo states but prior to kensho-satori states as absorption or 
Samadhi states, and asserts that these are not kensho-satori states.
These Samadhi states as decribed by Dr Austin appear to be none other than the 
states labeled in Theravada buddhism  as Jhana states.
See article below on Jhana states.
--ED
 
Definitions of jhana in theravada on the Web: 
• Jhāna (Pāli: झन; Sanskrit: ध्यान Dhyāna) is a meditative 
state of profound stillness and concentration. It is sometimes taught as an 
abiding in which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen 
object of attention,characterized by non-dual consciousness. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana_in_Theravada
 
Excerpt from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana_in_Theravada 
"Dhyāna in the early sutras
In the early texts, it is taught as a state of collected, full-body awareness 
in which mind becomes very powerful and still but not frozen, and is thus able 
to observe and gain insight into the changing flow of experience.[1][2] Later 
Theravada literature, in particular the Visuddhimagga, describes it as an 
abiding in which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen 
object of attention,[3] characterized by non-dual consciousness.[4]
The Buddha himself entered jhāna, as described in the early texts, during his 
own quest for enlightenment, and is constantly seen in the suttas encouraging 
his disciples to develop jhāna as a way of achieving awakening and 
liberation.[5][6][7]
One 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

In your post below what you refer to as the “…un-enlightened mind…” is what I 
usually call the ‘discriminating mind’ or ‘rational mind’ or ‘dualistic mind’.  
And yes, koans cannot be resolved by using this mind.  They can only be 
resolved/responded to from Buddha Mind which is what remains after the 
discriminating mind drops away.

Conventionally you should say that it takes a really accomplished teacher and a 
good student to properly use this technique; but a neither a teacher nor koan 
study is absolutely necessary to realize Buddha Nature or experience Samadhi 
(which are pretty much the same thing).  All you really need to do is sit 
(zazen) and quiet your mind (cease the workings of your discriminating mind).  
A good teacher and koan study can certainly help do this, but as I said are not 
absolutely necessary.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Siska
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:35 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,
 
I think it is an extremely difficult task to communicate Buddha Nature. On the 
other hand, it is also impossible for this un-enlightened mind to fully 
understand anything described as Buddha Nature because of its limitation. The 
experience/state is beyond convention, while almost everything we experience 
with with this mind (such as language, gestures, etc) are of convention, or at 
least perceived through such frame.
 
If koan is being used as a teaching tool, I imagine it takes a really 
accomplished teacher to do this properly. And perhaps, a good student too.
 
siska

--- On Fri, 19/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:02
  
Siska,

There are no prescribed ‘techniques’ for communicating Buddha Nature, which is 
the attempt of all koans. The communication has to be spontaneous and come 
directly from Buddha Nature. Sometimes it is a sentence or two. Sometimes it is 
just one or two words. Sometimes it is just a sound. Sometimes it’s a gesture 
or even just silence. There is no ‘right’ way, although not just any response 
is acceptable.

In the last two koans below the same zen master, Nansen, responded to the same 
question: ‘What is the Way?’ in two different and seemingly contradictory way. 
(‘What is the Way?’ is asking something like ‘How can I become enlightened?’, 
or ‘How can I experience Buddha Nature?’. ) In the first he says: ‘Ordinary 
mind is the Way’. In the second he says, “Mind is not Buddha, knowing is not 
the Way”.

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:46 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the koans.

What is the communication technique in the last two koans?

I think I've read some sufi stories before, but can't remember anything similar 
to koans at the moment. I'll share the story when I remember.

siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 10:29:31 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Siska]

Hi Bill,
 
I think it is an extremely difficult task to communicate Buddha Nature. On the 
other hand, it is also impossible for this un-enlightened mind to fully 
understand anything described as Buddha Nature because of its limitation. The 
experience/state is beyond convention, while almost everything we experience 
with with this mind (such as language, gestures, etc) are of convention, or at 
least perceived through such frame.
 
If koan is being used as a teaching tool, I imagine it takes a really 
accomplished teacher to do this properly. And perhaps, a good student too.
 
siska

--- On Fri, 19/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:02


  



Siska,

There are no prescribed ‘techniques’ for communicating Buddha Nature, which is 
the attempt of all koans. The communication has to be spontaneous and come 
directly from Buddha Nature. Sometimes it is a sentence or two. Sometimes it is 
just one or two words. Sometimes it is just a sound. Sometimes it’s a gesture 
or even just silence. There is no ‘right’ way, although not just any response 
is acceptable.

In the last two koans below the same zen master, Nansen, responded to the same 
question: ‘What is the Way?’ in two different and seemingly contradictory way. 
(‘What is the Way?’ is asking something like ‘How can I become enlightened?’, 
or ‘How can I experience Buddha Nature?’. ) In the first he says: ‘Ordinary 
mind is the Way’. In the second he says, “Mind is not Buddha, knowing is not 
the Way”.

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:46 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the koans.

What is the communication technique in the last two koans?

I think I've read some sufi stories before, but can't remember anything similar 
to koans at the moment. I'll share the story when I remember.

siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 10:29:31 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

A koan doesn’t have to be either historical or a story.  Current zen teachers 
very frequently create a koan especially tailored to address what they feel are 
inadequacies of a particular students.  These probably wouldn't be delivered in 
story form.  They are usually delivered as a question (What is X?) or a request 
(Show me Y.).  You don't read much about these because they are a very personal 
communication between the teacher and student.

The koans generally referred to are historical stories, accounts of the actions 
especially interactions of historical zen masters.  The two most referenced 
works containing koans such as these are THE GATELESS GATE and THE BLUE CLIFF 
RECORD.

The quality that makes a koan a koan is that it is a direct expression of 
Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:18 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Anthony, Bill,

I'd be surprised if it has to be historically accurate to be a koan. 

Come to think about it, what makes a story (or perhaps a saying) a koan then?

siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:13:53 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,
 
I don’t mean to jump in for Anthony, but I’d like to respond to this too.
 
Koans are like any other historical or even ancient writings.  This includes 
the Bible.  No one really knows whether the stories are really true, or mostly 
true or a compilation of several different occurrences in to one event or 
attributed to one person.

 
For most stories like these it really doesn’t matter if they’re really true or 
not (unless you’re a fundamentalist 
Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Fill-in-the-Blank).  The story is a teaching tool and 
its historical accuracy is not really the point.
 
…Bill!
 
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:55 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
 
  
Hi Anthony,

I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of 
real events. They are not?

siska

From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
 
  
The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM
  
Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really ge

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Siska,
 
Whatever Bill says is a koan. Otherwise, no matter it is from God, Allah, 
Buddha, Tony Blair or Hitler, it is no koan.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 21/11/10, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 11:18 PM


  



Hi Anthony, Bill,

I'd be surprised if it has to be historically accurate to be a koan. 

Come to think about it, what makes a story (or perhaps a saying) a koan then?

siska


From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:13:53 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  



Siska,
 
I don’t mean to jump in for Anthony, but I’d like to respond to this too.
 
Koans are like any other historical or even ancient writings.  This includes 
the Bible.  No one really knows whether the stories are really true, or mostly 
true or a compilation of several different occurrences in to one event or 
attributed to one person.
 
For most stories like these it really doesn’t matter if they’re really true or 
not (unless you’re a fundamentalist 
Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Fill-in-the-Blank).  The story is a teaching tool and 
its historical accuracy is not really the point.
 
…Bill!
 



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:55 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
 
  



Hi Anthony,

I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of 
real events. They are not?

siska




From: Anthony Wu  

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 +0800 (SGT)

To: 

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 
  






The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.

 

Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM

  


Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
sis

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

 

I don’t mean to jump in for Anthony, but I’d like to respond to this too.

 

Koans are like any other historical or even ancient writings.  This includes 
the Bible.  No one really knows whether the stories are really true, or mostly 
true or a compilation of several different occurrences in to one event or 
attributed to one person.

 

For most stories like these it really doesn’t matter if they’re really true or 
not (unless you’re a fundamentalist 
Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Fill-in-the-Blank).  The story is a teaching tool and 
its historical accuracy is not really the point.

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:55 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  

Hi Anthony,

I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of 
real events. They are not?

siska

  _  

From: Anthony Wu  

Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 +0800 (SGT)

To: 

ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  


The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.

 

Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM

  

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ] On 
Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=siska_cen%40yahoo.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From: http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> > 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>  
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> >
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>  
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@ya

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

There are no prescribed ‘techniques’ for communicating Buddha Nature, which is 
the attempt of all koans.  The communication has to be spontaneous and come 
directly from Buddha Nature.  Sometimes it is a sentence or two.  Sometimes it 
is just one or two words.  Sometimes it is just a sound.  Sometimes it’s a 
gesture or even just silence.  There is no ‘right’ way, although not just any 
response is acceptable.

In the last two koans below the same zen master, Nansen, responded to the same 
question: ‘What is the Way?’ in two different and seemingly contradictory way.  
(‘What is the Way?’ is asking something like ‘How can I become enlightened?’,  
or ‘How can I experience Buddha Nature?’. ) In the first he says: ‘Ordinary 
mind is the Way’.  In the second he says, “Mind is not Buddha, knowing is not 
the Way”.

…Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:46 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

Thanks for the koans.

What is the communication technique in the last two koans?

I think I've read some sufi stories before, but can't remember anything similar 
to koans at the moment. I'll share the story when I remember.

siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 10:29:31 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just patte

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Siska,
 
Some koans are made up stories, others are not stories at all. The story of 
Buddha holding up a flower is not a koan. It is made up. But as Master Bill 
says, 'cooking up' is justified, if you like the results.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 18/11/10, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 18 November, 2010, 8:54 PM


  



Hi Anthony,

I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of 
real events. They are not?

siska


From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  






The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM


  

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat lo

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
Now we got it.
 
anthony

--- On Thu, 18/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 18 November, 2010, 9:59 AM


  



Anthony,

‘Cooking it up’ is a good theory, and as good as the Vulture Peak version. The 
important thing is that you liked it.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:31 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.

Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logica

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[siska_cen]

Hi Anthony,

I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of 
real events. They are not?

siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM


  



Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experie

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[siska_cen]

Hello Kristy,

> *bows* Siska, 
Is this like Japanese bows where we *bows* back as salutation?

> Its simply being with them that makes them meaningful. 

Yes, I like it, just be with them.

> The only problem I have is that I have two rocks with a koan painted on each, 
> which  flank my front doors.  Guests always pester me to explain them.

Good chance to say: I don't know :-)

siska
-Original Message-
From: Kristy McClain 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 19:44:45 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

*bows* Siska,
 
I quite agree with you.  I took classes and met with a Teacher to study koans. 
I've found its like poetry for me. Trying to analyze it ruins it--for me.  Its 
simply being with them that makes them meaningful. 
 
The only problem I have is that I have two rocks with a koan painted on each, 
which  flank my front doors.  Guests always pester me to explain them.
 
Be well,
 
Kristy
 
 


-







, Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi, Bill

Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[siska_cen]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the koans.

What is the communication technique in the last two koans?

I think I've read some sufi stories before, but can't remember anything similar 
to koans at the moment. I'll share the story when I remember.

siska

-Original Message-
From: 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 10:29:31 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent.  Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma.  It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings.  Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”.  

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?”  Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Su

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

‘Cooking it up’ is a good theory, and as good as the Vulture Peak version.  The 
important thing is that you liked it.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:31 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM
  
Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that &

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM


  



Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Kristy McClain]

*bows* Siska,
 
I quite agree with you.  I took classes and met with a Teacher to study koans. 
I've found its like poetry for me. Trying to analyze it ruins it--for me.  Its 
simply being with them that makes them meaningful. 
 
The only problem I have is that I have two rocks with a koan painted on each, 
which  flank my front doors.  Guests always pester me to explain them.
 
Be well,
 
Kristy
 
 


-







, Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi, Bill

Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
Just the language (or just this)

The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
not for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
way), or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.

Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness

With best wishes

Lluís

P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!

would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent.  Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma.  It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings.  Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”.  

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?”  Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[siska_cen]

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium.  This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence.  I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other.  Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.  Just observe (through  
reading)  the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
not for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
way), or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the
frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium.  This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence.  I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other.  Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.  Just observe (through  
reading)  the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
not for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
way), or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the
frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. Ther

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

Thanks Bill!, ^_^

--- On Tue, 16/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 16 November, 2010, 0:29


  



Mayka,

That's a very good question.

A zen haiku, if it is indeed meant to communicate a direct experience, should 
only communicate Just THIS!. That being the case it deals with only NOW, and 
not a series of events that happen over time. Just THIS! has no time, no 
action. There is only the visual awareness of the frog, the visual awareness of 
the pond and the aural (sound) awareness of the sound of the frog jumping into 
the pond.

The order these are presented would make no difference since in the direct 
experience they all appear together at the same time, the only time - NOW.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 12:09 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Bill and Lluis:

Woud it be any difference in its meaning the altered order translated in the 
different languages?. 

LLuis said:
Rana = Frog
Charco = Pond
Chop! = Plop

Bill Said:
pond = charco
frog = rana
plop! = chop! (James Kirkup)

Thanks 
Mayka

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:

From: Lluís Mendieta 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 15:02

Hi, Bill

Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of Chomsky: all languages have 
a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement, making this 
way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have never heard 
before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language. 
Just the language (or just this)

The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are not 
for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other way), 
or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.

Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness

With best wishes

Lluís

P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!

would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the frog 
makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)

- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating
this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was
translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind:

ORIGINAL JAPANESE

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto (Basho)

DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION

There once was a curious frog
Who sat by a pond on a log
And, to see what resulted,
In the pond catapulted
With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks)

MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

Into the ancient pond
A frog jumps
Water’s sound! (D.T. Suzuki)

BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

pond
frog
plop! (James Kirkup)

Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking
about zen'? The first translation above is 'talking about an experience'.
The second is a mix, and the third is 'experience talk' - or 'zen talk'.

The point is that language does have the ability to be used and to
communicate non-dualistic (no subject/object/verb) experiences. Language
evolved, not engineered. It is not appropriate to try to superimpose a
logical structure on an evolved system. The grammatical rules that we
associate with languages have been developed AFTER-THE-FACT, not CONCURRENT
with the language. For example humans could s

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[siska_cen]

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language.  I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind.  When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language.  It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well.  In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.'  It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans.  And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience.  As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
not for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
way), or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the
frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating
this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was
translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind:

ORIGINAL JAPANESE

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto (Basho)

DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION

There once was a curious frog
Who sat by a pond on a log
And, to see what resulted,
In the pond catapulted
With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks)

MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

Into the ancient pond
A frog jumps
Water’s sound! (D.T. Suzuki)

BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

pond
frog
plop! (James Ki

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Chris and Lluis,

 

I’m not saying that humans do not have physical qualities that have evolved and 
are a pre-requisite to language.  You describe these in your post below as a 
“…genetic disposition towards certain types of linguistic forms.”.  This could 
include a range of frequencies that our vocal chords can generate and the range 
of frequencies that our ear can hear, as well as this “…bias in the brain…” 
that Chomsky probably refers to as ‘metalanguage’.

 

I believe your claim below that  “Chomsky does make a big distinction between 
the actual languages as spoken by people and the subsequent theories about that 
language made up by the people.” expresses the same idea as I meant when I 
differentiated between spoken language and grammar.

 

…Bill! 



 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
ChrisAustinLane
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 12:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  

The most interesting fact that Chomsky discovered is that children learning a 
language have a wide variety of possible mistakes that they never make. I don't 
recall the examples now, but every kids struggles to make certain tricky sounds 
and with subject verb agreement, but linguists have big sets of data from 
recording kids and have found patterns of error that are not once made. This 
evidence of a bias in the brain away from random generation of possible 
sentences is why some guess there is some genetic disposition towards certain 
types of linguistic forms. 

Chomsky does make a big distinction between the actual languages as spoken by 
people and the subsequent theories about that language made up by the people. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:27, mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> > wrote:

> Lluis,
> 
> Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
> 'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
> discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
> could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
> to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
> be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
> attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
> know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
> exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
> structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.
> 
> So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
> 'metalanguage', that I disagree.
> 
> I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
> something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
> communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
> because most languages are dualistically-based.
> 
> I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
> sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
> 'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
> later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
> there.'
> 
> ...Bill! 
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>  
> [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ] On 
> Behalf
> Of Lluís Mendieta
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
> 
> 
> Hi, Bill
> 
> Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
> But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of Chomsky: all languages
> have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
> making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
> never heard before.
> So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
> Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
> Just the language (or just this)
> 
> The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
> communicated.
> Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
> not for you.
> You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
> way), or you feel not.
> No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
> 
> Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís
> 
> P.D.: the no

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Mayka,

That's a very good question.

A zen haiku, if it is indeed meant to communicate a direct experience, should 
only communicate Just THIS!.  That being the case it deals with only NOW, and 
not a series of events that happen over time.  Just THIS! has no time, no 
action.  There is only the visual awareness of the frog, the visual awareness 
of the pond and the aural (sound) awareness of the sound of the frog jumping 
into the pond.

The order these are presented would make no difference since in the direct 
experience they all appear together at the same time, the only time - NOW.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 12:09 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Bill and Lluis:
 
Woud it be any difference in its meaning the altered order translated in the 
different languages?. 
 
LLuis said:
Rana = Frog
Charco = Pond
Chop!   = Plop
 
Bill Said:
pond = charco
frog =  rana
plop! = chop!  (James Kirkup)
 
Thanks 
Mayka

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:

From: Lluís Mendieta 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 15:02
  
Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages have 
a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement, making this 
way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have never heard 
before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language. 
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are not 
for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other way), 
or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the frog 
makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating
this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was
translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind:

ORIGINAL JAPANESE

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto (Basho)

DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION

There once was a curious frog
Who sat by a pond on a log
And, to see what resulted,
In the pond catapulted
With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks)

MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

Into the ancient pond
A frog jumps
Water’s sound! (D.T. Suzuki)

BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

pond
frog
plop! (James Kirkup)

Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking
about zen'? The first translation above is 'talking about an experience'.
The second is a mix, and the third is 'experience talk' - or 'zen talk'.

The point is that language does have the ability to be used and to
communicate non-dualistic (no subject/object/verb) experiences. Language
evolved, not engineered. It is not appropriate to try to superimpose a
logical structure on an evolved system. The grammatical rules that we
associate with languages have been developed AFTER-THE-FACT, not CONCURRENT
with the language. For example humans could speak and communicate very well
before anyone ever decided to categorize words into nouns, verbs, subjects
and objects. All this grammar is imposed upon language in an attempt to
'understand' language. &

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

ED;
It's a secret mystery 
Within one to unravel.
I don't know I don't know
I do know I don't know
I don't know I do know
Mayka

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 19:38


  





Mayka:
Who knows?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> ED:
>  
> I don't know! 
> Do you know you don't know?
> I do know I don't know!
>  
> Mayka
 

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[ChrisAustinLane]

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 15, 2010, at 12:08, "ED"  wrote:

> 
> 
>  
> 
> Chris,
> 
> o  Do you possess the requisite zen training and practice to know the 
> difference?
> 

There are certainly times when I confidently do not know!  Other times, I think 
I know, but the not knowing is merely obscured not destroyed, smirk. 
> o  Do you know for certain that zen training/practice is the only way to 
> enable one to differentiate correctly?
> 

You will note that I used Bill's zen rather than Zen. The two words to remember 
about Zen is "not always so." What I know for certain is the warmth of this 
phone and the sweat drying on my shirt. 
> Thanks, ED
> 
> 
>  
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane  wrote:
> >
> > zen training and practice can show the individual not knowing. It is not 
> > all verbal games and negative assertions. 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Chris Austin-Lane
> 
>  
> 
> > > Mayka:
> > > 
> > > Who knows?
> > > 
> > > --ED
> 
> 
>  
> 
> > > > ED:
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know! 
> > > > Do you know you don't know?
> > > > I do know I don't know!
> > > > 
> > > > Mayka
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[ChrisAustinLane]

zen training and practice can show the individual not knowing. It is not all 
verbal games and negative assertions. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 15, 2010, at 11:38, "ED"  wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> Mayka:
> 
> Who knows?
> 
> --ED
> 
>  
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
> >
> > ED:
> >  
> > I don't know! 
> > Do you know you don't know?
> > I do know I don't know!
> >  
> > Mayka
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

ED:
 
I don't know! 
Do you know you don't know?
I do know I don't know!
 
Mayka
 
 


--- On Mon, 15/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 17:30


  





 
Mayka unintelligible ED.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>


























 > ED Self Perceptions with the little help or reading:
 
 
 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED wrote:


> > Mayka  ED conversations anger frustration ego illusions: butterflies dreams"
 
 > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  ED Self Perceptions with the little help or reading:
> 
>  "Mayka  ED conversations anger frustration ego illusions: 
> butterflies dreams"
>  
>  
>  
> --- On Mon, 15/11/10, seacrofter001 seacrofter...@... wrote:
> 
> 
> From: seacrofter001 seacrofter...@...
> Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 15:12
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> ED: Mayka  ED coversations anger frustration ego illusions: 
> butterflies dreams
>  
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez flordeloto@ wrote:
> >
> > Please find below and extract of our both conversation.
>  
> > ED: I could talk about zen practice. What sort of things should we talking 
> > about that would nourish zen practice?
> 
> > Mayka: One could talk about any theme for as long as the energy of practise 
> > would be there. When the energy of the practice is there then the way of 
> > talks and chats addressed are very different. Yet there are words the same 
> > while communicating. However, I have to say that the energy of myself 
> > practice is not at all times there as the ego gets on its way.
> 
> > ED: Have you recommendations as to how the Zen Forum should police (detect 
> > and weed out) 'the ego' from messages, which ego, in 99.9% of humans, 
> > comprises 99.9% or more of 'themselves'
>  
> > Mayka: Sit down
> > Shut up
> > And you will know
> 
> > ED: And many happy returns of the same to you! ;-)
> 
> > Mayka: Though your response may sound a clever answer. It's not. Remember 
> > who was you and not me who had the doubts here and asked the questions. I 
> > can't be decieved by anyone and neither you can.
> 
> > Mayka,
> > And many happy returns of the same to you!  ;-)
> > --ED
> 
> > ED;
> >  
> > Sit down
> > Shut up
> > And you will know 
> >  
> > Mayka
>

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

Blocbusters American movies?

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:


From: Lluís Mendieta 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 16:24


  




Good point
 
But, where come from the citizens of Atlantis and from which planet come the 
Ancient Astronauts?  :-)
 
Quite curious to hear theories.
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís

- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:00 AM
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Ed and Lluis,

Maybe the Basques are direct descendents of the Ancient Astronauts, or
survivors of Atlantis. What do you think? …Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:50 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Thanks for map
> 
> They forget the basques...
 
Hi Lluis,
The mysteries of the Basque people and the Basque language have not been
fully resolved yet.
 
>From wiki:
"Since the Basque language is unrelated to Indo-European, it's often thought
that they represent the people or culture who occupied Europe before the
spread of Indo-European languages there.
It is thought that Basques are a remnant of the early inhabitants of Western
Europe, specifically those of the Franco-Cantabrian region. Basque tribes
were already mentioned in Roman times by Strabo and Pliny, including the
Vascones, the Aquitani and others. There is enough evidence that they
already spoke Basque in that time.
The Basque language is thought to be a genetic language isolate. Thus Basque
contrasts with other European languages, almost all of which belong to the
large Indo-European language family. 
Another peculiarity of Basque is that it has been spoken continuously in
situ, in and around its present territorial location, for longer than other
modern European languages, which have all been introduced in historical or
prehistorical times through population migrations or other processes of
cultural transmission.[19]
Theories about Basque origins
The main theory about Basque origins suggested that they are a remnant of a
pre-Indo-European population of Europe.
DNA methods for seeking ancient ancestry are increasingly being used to test
the origins of the Basques. An interesting possibility is that Parkinson's
disease may be related to the Basque dardarin mutation. Partly as a result
of DNA analysis, "...there is a general scientific consensus that the
Basques represent the most direct descendants of the hunter-gatherers who
dwelt in Europe before the spread of agriculture, based on both linguistic
and genetic evidence..."
Some studies of Basque genetic markers have also suggested the possibility
of a connection with Celtic peoples of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and
Cornwall. The shared markers are suggestive of having passed through a
genetic bottleneck during the peak of the last ice age, which would mean the
two peoples were in Europe by at least about 17,000 years ago, and probably
45,000 to 50,000 years ago.
Some authors have pointed out that the words for knife and axe may come from
the root word for stone, which would point to linguistic conservativism
preserving etymologies of at least the Neolithic. Mitochondrial DNA analysis
tracing a rare subgroup of haplogroup U8 places the ancestry of the Basques
in the Upper Palaeolithic, with their primitive founders originating from
West Asia."
> Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they
are not related genetically
> 
> a) something is missing in study
> b) language has nothing to do with population origin
> 
> Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical.
> I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans
are completely related and different form neigbourgs. 
> 
> Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what
ever one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables.
> A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation,
that could show a very distorted image of reality.
> Would be like to see world through a small hole.
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5619 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5619 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[ChrisAustinLane]

The most interesting fact that Chomsky discovered is that children learning a 
language have a wide variety of possible mistakes that they never make. I don't 
recall the examples now, but every kids struggles to make certain tricky sounds 
and with subject verb agreement, but linguists have big sets of data from 
recording kids and have found patterns of error that are not once made. This 
evidence of a bias in the brain away from random generation of possible 
sentences is why some guess there is some genetic  disposition towards certain 
types of linguistic forms. 

Chomsky does make a big distinction between the actual languages as spoken by 
people and the subsequent theories about that language made up by the people. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:27,  wrote:

> Lluis,
> 
> Just THIS! is before language.  I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
> 'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
> discriminating mind.  When this function is applied to language I guess it
> could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
> to learn language.  It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
> be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
> attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
> know it doesn't actually fit very well.  In any language there are a lot of
> exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
> structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.
> 
> So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
> 'metalanguage', that I disagree.
> 
> I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
> something that could not be communicated.'  It certainly can be
> communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
> because most languages are dualistically-based.
> 
> I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
> sound a lot like zen koans.  And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
> 'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience.  As you say
> later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
> there.'
> 
> ...Bill!  
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Lluís Mendieta
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
> 
>   
> Hi, Bill
>  
> Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
> But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages
> have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
> making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
> never heard before.
> So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
> Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
> Just the language (or just this)
>  
> The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
> communicated.
> Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
> not for you.
> You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
> way), or you feel not.
> No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
>  
> Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
>  
> With best wishes
>  
> Lluís
>  
> P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
> Rana
> Charco
> Chop!
>  
> would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the
> frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
>  
> - Original Message - 
> From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
> Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
> 
>   
> Lluis,
> 
> I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
> dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
> describe action. That’s a given.
> 
> What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
> languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
> restricted by grammar.
> 
> In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
> who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
> first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
> reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

Bill and Lluis:
 
Woud it be any difference in its meaning the altered order translated in the 
different languages?. 
 
LLuis said:
Rana = Frog
Charco = Pond
Chop!   = Plop

 
Bill Said:
pond = charco
frog =  rana
plop! = chop!  (James Kirkup)
 
Thanks 
Mayka

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:


From: Lluís Mendieta 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 15:02


  




Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages have 
a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement, making this 
way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have never heard 
before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language. 
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are not 
for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other way), 
or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the frog 
makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating
this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was
translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind:

ORIGINAL JAPANESE

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto (Basho)

DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION

There once was a curious frog
Who sat by a pond on a log
And, to see what resulted,
In the pond catapulted
With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks)

MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

Into the ancient pond
A frog jumps
Water’s sound! (D.T. Suzuki)

BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

pond
frog
plop! (James Kirkup)

Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking
about zen'? The first translation above is 'talking about an experience'.
The second is a mix, and the third is 'experience talk' - or 'zen talk'.

The point is that language does have the ability to be used and to
communicate non-dualistic (no subject/object/verb) experiences. Language
evolved, not engineered. It is not appropriate to try to superimpose a
logical structure on an evolved system. The grammatical rules that we
associate with languages have been developed AFTER-THE-FACT, not CONCURRENT
with the language. For example humans could speak and communicate very well
before anyone ever decided to categorize words into nouns, verbs, subjects
and objects. All this grammar is imposed upon language in an attempt to
'understand' language. 'Understand' always means 'impose a logical
structure'.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:42 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
Hungry! has also an implied subject: I am hungry!
 
Fire! has also one, "it" : It is in fire! (although could be also "there is
a fire!" and that would be impersonal, I suppose)
Uggh!
Y only know true impersonals (no subject ) in spanish, catalan and french
 
On vende .
Se vende botellas ("se venden botellas" is a pasiva refleja, not a true
impersonal That drived me crazy in Bacchaloreat)
 
Seems that westerners are tied to sujects and verbs.
 
With best wi

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

 ED Self Perceptions with the little help or reading:

 "Mayka  ED conversations anger frustration ego illusions: butterflies dreams"
 
 
 
--- On Mon, 15/11/10, seacrofter001  wrote:


From: seacrofter001 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 15:12


  






 
ED: Mayka  ED coversations anger frustration ego illusions: butterflies dreams
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Please find below and extract of our both conversation.
 
> ED: I could talk about zen practice. What sort of things should we talking 
> about that would nourish zen practice?

> Mayka: One could talk about any theme for as long as the energy of practise 
> would be there. When the energy of the practice is there then the way of 
> talks and chats addressed are very different. Yet there are words the same 
> while communicating. However, I have to say that the energy of myself 
> practice is not at all times there as the ego gets on its way.

> ED: Have you recommendations as to how the Zen Forum should police (detect 
> and weed out) 'the ego' from messages, which ego, in 99.9% of humans, 
> comprises 99.9% or more of 'themselves'
 
> Mayka: Sit down
> Shut up
> And you will know

> ED: And many happy returns of the same to you! ;-)

> Mayka: Though your response may sound a clever answer. It's not. Remember who 
> was you and not me who had the doubts here and asked the questions. I can't 
> be decieved by anyone and neither you can.

> Mayka,
> And many happy returns of the same to you!  ;-)
> --ED

> ED;
>  
> Sit down
> Shut up
> And you will know 
>  
> Mayka

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language.  I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind.  When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language.  It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well.  In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.'  It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans.  And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience.  As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
not for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
way), or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the
frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating
this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was
translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind:

ORIGINAL JAPANESE

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto (Basho)

DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION

There once was a curious frog
Who sat by a pond on a log
And, to see what resulted,
In the pond catapulted
With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks)

MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

Into the ancient pond
A frog jumps
Water’s sound! (D.T. Suzuki)

BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

pond
frog
plop! (James Kirkup)

Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking
about zen'? The first translation above is 'talking about an experience'.
The second is a mix, and the third is 'experience talk' - or 'zen talk'.

The point is that language does have the ability to be used and to
communicate non-dualistic (no subject/object/verb) experiences. Language
evolved, not en

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Good point

But, where come from the citizens of Atlantis and from which planet come the 
Ancient Astronauts?  :-)

Quite curious to hear theories.

With best wishes

Lluís
  - Original Message - 
  From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:00 AM
  Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



  Ed and Lluis,

  Maybe the Basques are direct descendents of the Ancient Astronauts, or
  survivors of Atlantis. What do you think? .Bill!

  From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
  Of ED
  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:50 PM
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
  >
  > Hi, Ed
  > 
  > Thanks for map
  > 
  > They forget the basques...
   
  Hi Lluis,
  The mysteries of the Basque people and the Basque language have not been
  fully resolved yet.
   
  From wiki:
  "Since the Basque language is unrelated to Indo-European, it's often thought
  that they represent the people or culture who occupied Europe before the
  spread of Indo-European languages there.
  It is thought that Basques are a remnant of the early inhabitants of Western
  Europe, specifically those of the Franco-Cantabrian region. Basque tribes
  were already mentioned in Roman times by Strabo and Pliny, including the
  Vascones, the Aquitani and others. There is enough evidence that they
  already spoke Basque in that time.
  The Basque language is thought to be a genetic language isolate. Thus Basque
  contrasts with other European languages, almost all of which belong to the
  large Indo-European language family. 
  Another peculiarity of Basque is that it has been spoken continuously in
  situ, in and around its present territorial location, for longer than other
  modern European languages, which have all been introduced in historical or
  prehistorical times through population migrations or other processes of
  cultural transmission.[19]
  Theories about Basque origins
  The main theory about Basque origins suggested that they are a remnant of a
  pre-Indo-European population of Europe.
  DNA methods for seeking ancient ancestry are increasingly being used to test
  the origins of the Basques. An interesting possibility is that Parkinson's
  disease may be related to the Basque dardarin mutation. Partly as a result
  of DNA analysis, "...there is a general scientific consensus that the
  Basques represent the most direct descendants of the hunter-gatherers who
  dwelt in Europe before the spread of agriculture, based on both linguistic
  and genetic evidence..."
  Some studies of Basque genetic markers have also suggested the possibility
  of a connection with Celtic peoples of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and
  Cornwall. The shared markers are suggestive of having passed through a
  genetic bottleneck during the peak of the last ice age, which would mean the
  two peoples were in Europe by at least about 17,000 years ago, and probably
  45,000 to 50,000 years ago.
  Some authors have pointed out that the words for knife and axe may come from
  the root word for stone, which would point to linguistic conservativism
  preserving etymologies of at least the Neolithic. Mitochondrial DNA analysis
  tracing a rare subgroup of haplogroup U8 places the ancestry of the Basques
  in the Upper Palaeolithic, with their primitive founders originating from
  West Asia."
  > Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they
  are not related genetically
  > 
  > a) something is missing in study
  > b) language has nothing to do with population origin
  > 
  > Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical.
  > I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans
  are completely related and different form neigbourgs. 
  > 
  > Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what
  ever one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables.
  > A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation,
  that could show a very distorted image of reality.
  > Would be like to see world through a small hole.
  > 
  > With best wishes
  > 
  > Lluís

  __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
  database 5619 (20101114) __

  The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

  http://www.eset.com


  __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
  database 5619 (20101114) __

  The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

  http://www.eset.com




  

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Dear Anthony

Thanks for info!

Lluís
  - Original Message - 
  From: Anthony Wu 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 12:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



Lluis,

Conversational Japanese is not that hard, but the written language will 
require life effort. Standard Tibetan is not tonal, but some of their dialects 
are. They are interesting, but not much use.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:


  From: Lluís Mendieta 
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 6:02 AM



   
  Hi, Anthony

  Being not too long ago in Japan, and speaking spanish (among others), 
I could say that japanese is not that hard for a spanish speaker: sounds are 
easy to recognize. Not being tonal is also a plus for us. Tones are hard to 
understand for anyone that have never heard those.
  Other would be writting...   :-(

  I have heard also tibetan, but in ceremonies, so, not sure if easy 
for me or not...

  With best wishes

  Lluís
  - Original Message - 
From: Anthony Wu 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


  
  ED,

  North Chinese is missing in the tree. They constitute 
majority Chinese population, which have been influenced by Central Asian 
Conquerers that brought in genetic and language elements. So the language tend 
to be multisyllables. In contrast, South Chinese are monosyllables with 
complicated tonal systems, like Thai. 

  It is a mistake to group together Tibetan, Korean and 
Japanese. The latter is probably more comfortable with Spanish than Tibetan.

  Anthony

  --- On Mon, 15/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 12:24 AM


  

Bill,
If one looks at the family tree of population groups based 
on genetic distance (in the first chart in http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm), 
one notices that: S. Chinese, Mon Khmer, Thai, Indonesian, Malayians, Filipinos 
are closely related, belonging to the family: 'Mainland SE Asian'.
On the other hand The 'Indian qualities' of the Thai 
probably orginate from:
"The culture of Thailand incorporates cultural beliefs and 
characteristics indiginenous to the area known as modern day Thailand coupled 
with much influence from ancient India, China, Cambodia, along with the the 
neighbouring pre-historic cultures of Southeast Asia. It is influenced 
primarily by Animism, Hinduism, Buddhism, as well as by later migrations from 
China, and southern India.
Thailand is nearly 95% Theravada Buddhist, with minorities 
of Muslims (4.6%), Christians (0.7%), Mahayana Buddhists, and other religions. 
Thai Theravada Buddhism is supported and overseen by the government, with monks 
receiving a number of government benefits, such as free use of the public 
transportation infrastructure.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Thailand
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Anthony,
> 
> Issan is indeed a Thai dialect. It's kind of a blend of 
Thai and Lao.
> 
> It's obvious that Chinese is the major contributor to the 
Thai ethnic mix. Their culture, written language, traditional dress, etc..., 
seems to also have a lot of Indian qualities. 
> And physically I think the people that look the closest 
to Thais are Filipinos. In fact several times my wife was approached by 
Filipinos while we were waiting for a flight who thought she was Filipino also.
> 
> ...Bill! 
 

   



  

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Bill

Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages have 
a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement, making this 
way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have never heard 
before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language. 
Just the language (or just this)

The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are not 
for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other way), 
or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.

Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness

With best wishes

Lluís

P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!

would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the frog 
makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)

- Original Message - 
  From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
  Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



  Lluis,

  I'm not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
  dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
  describe action. That's a given.

  What I'm saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
  languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
  restricted by grammar.

  In the example phrases I used below: 'Hungry!' and 'Fire!', YOU are the one
  who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell 'Fire!' or 'Duck!' you will
  first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
  reconstruct and augment the sound to 'I have observed a fire and want to be
  sure you are aware of it.'

  Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
  such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
  EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating
  this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was
  translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind:

  ORIGINAL JAPANESE

  Furu ike ya
  kawazu tobikomu
  mizu no oto (Basho)

  DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION

  There once was a curious frog
  Who sat by a pond on a log
  And, to see what resulted,
  In the pond catapulted
  With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks)

  MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

  Into the ancient pond
  A frog jumps
  Water's sound! (D.T. Suzuki)

  BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

  pond
  frog
  plop! (James Kirkup)

  Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking
  about zen'? The first translation above is 'talking about an experience'.
  The second is a mix, and the third is 'experience talk' - or 'zen talk'.

  The point is that language does have the ability to be used and to
  communicate non-dualistic (no subject/object/verb) experiences. Language
  evolved, not engineered. It is not appropriate to try to superimpose a
  logical structure on an evolved system. The grammatical rules that we
  associate with languages have been developed AFTER-THE-FACT, not CONCURRENT
  with the language. For example humans could speak and communicate very well
  before anyone ever decided to categorize words into nouns, verbs, subjects
  and objects. All this grammar is imposed upon language in an attempt to
  'understand' language. 'Understand' always means 'impose a logical
  structure'.

  ...Bill!

  From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
  Of Lluís Mendieta
  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:42 PM
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


  Hi, Bill
   
  Hungry! has also an implied subject: I am hungry!
   
  Fire! has also one, "it" : It is in fire! (although could be also "there is
  a fire!" and that would be impersonal, I suppose)
  Uggh!
  Y only know true impersonals (no subject ) in spanish, catalan and french
   
  On vende .
  Se vende botellas ("se venden botellas" is a pasiva refleja, not a true
  impersonal That drived me crazy in Bacchaloreat)
   
  Seems that westerners are tied to sujects and verbs.
   
  With best wishes
   
  Lluís
  ----- Original Message - 
  From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:39 AM
  Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


  Lluis,

  In the example I used &

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

Please find below and extract of our both conversation. 
ED: I could talk about zen practice. What sort of things should we talking 
about that would nourish zen practice?
Mayka: One could talk about any theme for as long as the energy of practise 
would be there. When the energy of the practice is there then the way of talks 
and chats addressed are very different. Yet there are words the same while 
communicating. However, I have to say that the energy of myself practice is not 
at all times there as the ego gets on its way.
ED: Have you recommendations as to how the Zen Forum should police (detect and 
weed out) 'the ego' from messages, which ego, in 99.9% of humans, comprises 
99.9% or more of 'themselves'
Mayka: Sit down
   Shut up
   And you will know
ED: And many happy returns of the same to you! ;-)
Mayka: Though your response may sound a clever answer. It's not. Remember who 
was you and not me who had the doubts here and asked the questions. I can't be 
decieved by anyone and neither you can.

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 23:20


  





Mayka,
And many happy returns of the same to you!  ;-)
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>

ED;
 
Sit down
Shut up
And you will know 
 
Mayka
 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed and Lluis,

It’s an accepted fact that 64.7% of all statistics are just made up on the
spot and not based on any kind of research at all.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:00 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Ed
 
Thanks for map
 
They forget the basques...
 
Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they
are not related genetically
 
a) something is missing in study
b) language has nothing to do with population origin
 
Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical.
I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans
are completely related and different form neigbourgs. 
 
Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what ever
one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables.
A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation,
that could show a very distorted image of reality.
Would be like to see world through a small hole.
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: ED 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:41 PM
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Genetic map of Europe
http://bigthink.com/ideas/21358
"Two observations spring to mind immediately: the fact that most populations
overlap so intimately with their neighbours. And that Finland doesn't.
The isolation of Finnish genetics can be explained by the fact that they
were at one time a very small population, preserving its genetic
idiosyncrasies as it expanded."
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Sorry for my poor english
> I tried to mean that the rest of europeans, excluding finnish, and for
that, hungarians, lapons and seems basques, speak an indo european idiom.
And probably population origin in Asia
> 
> Finnish are also westerner in my mindset (yes, it s said that they come
here as invaders, with Attila; so maybe central asia origin)
> 
> I do not see them as easterner language..But not being a linguist, I maybe
very well wrong,
> 
> Anyway, there is (or at least was) an extreme moviment in Hungarian that
relates them as related to japanese, the turanism. 
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís
 



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5619 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5619 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed and Lluis,

Maybe the Basques are direct descendents of the Ancient Astronauts, or
survivors of Atlantis.  What do you think?  …Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:50 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Thanks for map
> 
> They forget the basques...
 
Hi Lluis,
The mysteries of the Basque people and the Basque language have not been
fully resolved yet.
 
>From wiki:
"Since the Basque language is unrelated to Indo-European, it's often thought
that they represent the people or culture who occupied Europe before the
spread of Indo-European languages there.
It is thought that Basques are a remnant of the early inhabitants of Western
Europe, specifically those of the Franco-Cantabrian region. Basque tribes
were already mentioned in Roman times by Strabo and Pliny, including the
Vascones, the Aquitani and others. There is enough evidence that they
already spoke Basque in that time.
The Basque language is thought to be a genetic language isolate. Thus Basque
contrasts with other European languages, almost all of which belong to the
large Indo-European language family. 
Another peculiarity of Basque is that it has been spoken continuously in
situ, in and around its present territorial location, for longer than other
modern European languages, which have all been introduced in historical or
prehistorical times through population migrations or other processes of
cultural transmission.[19]
Theories about Basque origins
The main theory about Basque origins suggested that they are a remnant of a
pre-Indo-European population of Europe.
DNA methods for seeking ancient ancestry are increasingly being used to test
the origins of the Basques. An interesting possibility is that Parkinson's
disease may be related to the Basque dardarin mutation. Partly as a result
of DNA analysis, "...there is a general scientific consensus that the
Basques represent the most direct descendants of the hunter-gatherers who
dwelt in Europe before the spread of agriculture, based on both linguistic
and genetic evidence..."
Some studies of Basque genetic markers have also suggested the possibility
of a connection with Celtic peoples of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and
Cornwall. The shared markers are suggestive of having passed through a
genetic bottleneck during the peak of the last ice age, which would mean the
two peoples were in Europe by at least about 17,000 years ago, and probably
45,000 to 50,000 years ago.
Some authors have pointed out that the words for knife and axe may come from
the root word for stone, which would point to linguistic conservativism
preserving etymologies of at least the Neolithic. Mitochondrial DNA analysis
tracing a rare subgroup of haplogroup U8 places the ancestry of the Basques
in the Upper Palaeolithic, with their primitive founders originating from
West Asia."
> Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they
are not related genetically
> 
> a) something is missing in study
> b) language has nothing to do with population origin
> 
> Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical.
> I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans
are completely related and different form neigbourgs. 
> 
> Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what
ever one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables.
> A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation,
that could show a very distorted image of reality.
> Would be like to see world through a small hole.
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5619 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5619 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Lluis,
 
Conversational Japanese is not that hard, but the written language will require 
life effort. Standard Tibetan is not tonal, but some of their dialects are. 
They are interesting, but not much use.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:


From: Lluís Mendieta 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 6:02 AM


  



 
Hi, Anthony
 
Being not too long ago in Japan, and speaking spanish (among others), I could 
say that japanese is not that hard for a spanish speaker: sounds are easy to 
recognize. Not being tonal is also a plus for us. Tones are hard to understand 
for anyone that have never heard those.
Other would be writting...   :-(
 
I have heard also tibetan, but in ceremonies, so, not sure if easy for me or 
not...
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
- Original Message - 

From: Anthony Wu 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  






ED,
 
North Chinese is missing in the tree. They constitute majority Chinese 
population, which have been influenced by Central Asian Conquerers that brought 
in genetic and language elements. So the language tend to be multisyllables. In 
contrast, South Chinese are monosyllables with complicated tonal systems, like 
Thai. 
 
It is a mistake to group together Tibetan, Korean and Japanese. The latter is 
probably more comfortable with Spanish than Tibetan.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 12:24 AM


  



Bill,
If one looks at the family tree of population groups based on genetic distance 
(in the first chart in http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm), one notices that: S. 
Chinese, Mon Khmer, Thai, Indonesian, Malayians, Filipinos are closely related, 
belonging to the family: 'Mainland SE Asian'.
On the other hand The 'Indian qualities' of the Thai probably orginate from:
"The culture of Thailand incorporates cultural beliefs and characteristics 
indiginenous to the area known as modern day Thailand coupled with much 
influence from ancient India, China, Cambodia, along with the the neighbouring 
pre-historic cultures of Southeast Asia. It is influenced primarily by Animism, 
Hinduism, Buddhism, as well as by later migrations from China, and southern 
India.
Thailand is nearly 95% Theravada Buddhist, with minorities of Muslims (4.6%), 
Christians (0.7%), Mahayana Buddhists, and other religions. Thai Theravada 
Buddhism is supported and overseen by the government, with monks receiving a 
number of government benefits, such as free use of the public transportation 
infrastructure.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Thailand
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Anthony,
> 
> Issan is indeed a Thai dialect. It's kind of a blend of Thai and Lao.
> 
> It's obvious that Chinese is the major contributor to the Thai ethnic mix. 
> Their culture, written language, traditional dress, etc..., seems to also 
> have a lot of Indian qualities. 
> And physically I think the people that look the closest to Thais are 
> Filipinos. In fact several times my wife was approached by Filipinos while we 
> were waiting for a flight who thought she was Filipino also.
> 
> ...Bill! 
 

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

Lluis and ED:
 
Don't know if this link can be useful to your conversation in connection with 
the vasque language...Anyway I paste here:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euskera
 
Although link comes in Spanish there is the possibility that it could be found 
the same in English but I don't know for sure.
Mayka

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:


From: Lluís Mendieta 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 17:27


  




Hi, Ed
 
Agreed. 
As was said, I do not rely too much in such statistics,
As I said before, another genetic map related irish, bristish, basques and 
catalans.
Just take the cut in the multidimension surface you need and you could get 
whatever you wish (among some limits...That could be very broad)
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
 
 
 

- Original Message - 
From: ED 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:14 PM
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they are 
>not related genetically
> 
> a) something is missing in study
> b) language has nothing to do with population origin
> With best wishes,
> Lluis
 
Hi Lluis,
a) There is almost always something missing from any hypothesis concerning 
language origins.
b) Language has much to do with population origins, but there are other factors 
too, like conquests, migrations, bottlenecks, etc., etc.
> With best wishes
> 
> --ED
 
Note (1):




Hungarian language

 
Closeup view of a Hungarian keyboard

Alphabet

õ û
cs · dz · dzs · gy
ly · ny · sz · ty · zs

Grammar

Noun phrases · Verbs
T-V distinction

History


Sound correspondences with
other Uralic languages

Other features

Phonetics and phonology
Vowel harmony

Orthography
(Old Hungarian script)Hungarian names
Tongue-twisters

Hungarian and English

Hungarian pronunciation of English
English words from Hungarian

Regulatory body


v • d • e
Hungarian (magyar nyelv) is a Uralic language in the Ugric language group, 
distantly related to Finnish, Estonian and a number of other minority languages 
spoken in the Baltic states and northern European Russia eastward into central 
Siberia. Finno-Ugric languages are not related to the Indo-European languages 
that dominate Europe but have acquired loan words from them.
 
Note (2)
Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
spoken around the Baltic Sea.
Finnish demonstrates an affiliation with the Uralic languages in several 
respects including:

Shared morphology: ...



Shared basic vocabulary displaying regular sound correspondences with the other 
Uralic languages.
Several theories exist as to the geographic origin of Finnish and the other 
Uralic languages, but the most widely held view is that they originated as a 
Proto-Uralic language somewhere in the boreal forest belt around the Ural 
Mountains region and/or the bend of the middle Volga. The strong case for 
Proto-Uralic is supported by common vocabulary with regularities in sound 
correspondences, as well as by the fact that the Uralic languages have many 
similarities in structure and grammar.
The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."
 
Note (3)
The relationship between Fuinnish and Hungarian languagges
http://www.histdoc.net/sounds/hungary.html
 

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Anthony

Being not too long ago in Japan, and speaking spanish (among others), I could 
say that japanese is not that hard for a spanish speaker: sounds are easy to 
recognize. Not being tonal is also a plus for us. Tones are hard to understand 
for anyone that have never heard those.
Other would be writting...   :-(

I have heard also tibetan, but in ceremonies, so, not sure if easy for me or 
not...

With best wishes

Lluís
- Original Message - 
  From: Anthony Wu 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 10:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



ED,

North Chinese is missing in the tree. They constitute majority Chinese 
population, which have been influenced by Central Asian Conquerers that brought 
in genetic and language elements. So the language tend to be multisyllables. In 
contrast, South Chinese are monosyllables with complicated tonal systems, like 
Thai. 

It is a mistake to group together Tibetan, Korean and Japanese. The 
latter is probably more comfortable with Spanish than Tibetan.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, ED  wrote:


  From: ED 
  Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 12:24 AM




  Bill,
  If one looks at the family tree of population groups based on genetic 
distance (in the first chart in http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm), one notices 
that: S. Chinese, Mon Khmer, Thai, Indonesian, Malayians, Filipinos are closely 
related, belonging to the family: 'Mainland SE Asian'.
  On the other hand The 'Indian qualities' of the Thai probably 
orginate from:
  "The culture of Thailand incorporates cultural beliefs and 
characteristics indiginenous to the area known as modern day Thailand coupled 
with much influence from ancient India, China, Cambodia, along with the the 
neighbouring pre-historic cultures of Southeast Asia. It is influenced 
primarily by Animism, Hinduism, Buddhism, as well as by later migrations from 
China, and southern India.
  Thailand is nearly 95% Theravada Buddhist, with minorities of Muslims 
(4.6%), Christians (0.7%), Mahayana Buddhists, and other religions. Thai 
Theravada Buddhism is supported and overseen by the government, with monks 
receiving a number of government benefits, such as free use of the public 
transportation infrastructure.
  Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Thailand
  --ED

  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
  >
  > Anthony,
  > 
  > Issan is indeed a Thai dialect. It's kind of a blend of Thai and 
Lao.
  > 
  > It's obvious that Chinese is the major contributor to the Thai 
ethnic mix. Their culture, written language, traditional dress, etc..., seems 
to also have a lot of Indian qualities. 
  > And physically I think the people that look the closest to Thais 
are Filipinos. In fact several times my wife was approached by Filipinos while 
we were waiting for a flight who thought she was Filipino also.
  > 
  > ...Bill! 
   



  

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

No wonder many Barques are independence minded. I hope not all of them.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 12:50 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Thanks for map
> 
> They forget the basques...
 
Hi Lluis,
The mysteries of the Basque people and the Basque language have not been fully 
resolved yet.
 
>From wiki:
"Since the Basque language is unrelated to Indo-European, it's often thought 
that they represent the people or culture who occupied Europe before the spread 
of Indo-European languages there.
It is thought that Basques are a remnant of the early inhabitants of Western 
Europe, specifically those of the Franco-Cantabrian region. Basque tribes were 
already mentioned in Roman times by Strabo and Pliny, including the Vascones, 
the Aquitani and others. There is enough evidence that they already spoke 
Basque in that time.
The Basque language is thought to be a genetic language isolate. Thus Basque 
contrasts with other European languages, almost all of which belong to the 
large Indo-European language family. 
Another peculiarity of Basque is that it has been spoken continuously in situ, 
in and around its present territorial location, for longer than other modern 
European languages, which have all been introduced in historical or 
prehistorical times through population migrations or other processes of 
cultural transmission.[19]
Theories about Basque origins
The main theory about Basque origins suggested that they are a remnant of a 
pre-Indo-European population of Europe.
DNA methods for seeking ancient ancestry are increasingly being used to test 
the origins of the Basques. An interesting possibility is that Parkinson's 
disease may be related to the Basque dardarin mutation. Partly as a result of 
DNA analysis, "...there is a general scientific consensus that the Basques 
represent the most direct descendants of the hunter-gatherers who dwelt in 
Europe before the spread of agriculture, based on both linguistic and genetic 
evidence..."
Some studies of Basque genetic markers have also suggested the possibility of a 
connection with Celtic peoples of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall. The 
shared markers are suggestive of having passed through a genetic bottleneck 
during the peak of the last ice age, which would mean the two peoples were in 
Europe by at least about 17,000 years ago, and probably 45,000 to 50,000 years 
ago.
Some authors have pointed out that the words for knife and axe may come from 
the root word for stone, which would point to linguistic conservativism 
preserving etymologies of at least the Neolithic. Mitochondrial DNA analysis 
tracing a rare subgroup of haplogroup U8 places the ancestry of the Basques in 
the Upper Palaeolithic, with their primitive founders originating from West 
Asia."
> Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they are 
> not related genetically
> 
> a) something is missing in study
> b) language has nothing to do with population origin
> 
> Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical.
> I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans are 
> completely related and different form neigbourgs. 
> 
> Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what ever 
> one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables.
> A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation, that 
> could show a very distorted image of reality.
> Would be like to see world through a small hole.
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

ED,
 
North Chinese is missing in the tree. They constitute majority Chinese 
population, which have been influenced by Central Asian Conquerers that brought 
in genetic and language elements. So the language tend to be multisyllables. In 
contrast, South Chinese are monosyllables with complicated tonal systems, like 
Thai. 
 
It is a mistake to group together Tibetan, Korean and Japanese. The latter is 
probably more comfortable with Spanish than Tibetan.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 15/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 12:24 AM


  





Bill,
If one looks at the family tree of population groups based on genetic distance 
(in the first chart in http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm), one notices that: S. 
Chinese, Mon Khmer, Thai, Indonesian, Malayians, Filipinos are closely related, 
belonging to the family: 'Mainland SE Asian'.
On the other hand The 'Indian qualities' of the Thai probably orginate from:
"The culture of Thailand incorporates cultural beliefs and characteristics 
indiginenous to the area known as modern day Thailand coupled with much 
influence from ancient India, China, Cambodia, along with the the neighbouring 
pre-historic cultures of Southeast Asia. It is influenced primarily by Animism, 
Hinduism, Buddhism, as well as by later migrations from China, and southern 
India.
Thailand is nearly 95% Theravada Buddhist, with minorities of Muslims (4.6%), 
Christians (0.7%), Mahayana Buddhists, and other religions. Thai Theravada 
Buddhism is supported and overseen by the government, with monks receiving a 
number of government benefits, such as free use of the public transportation 
infrastructure.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Thailand
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Anthony,
> 
> Issan is indeed a Thai dialect. It's kind of a blend of Thai and Lao.
> 
> It's obvious that Chinese is the major contributor to the Thai ethnic mix. 
> Their culture, written language, traditional dress, etc..., seems to also 
> have a lot of Indian qualities. 
> And physically I think the people that look the closest to Thais are 
> Filipinos. In fact several times my wife was approached by Filipinos while we 
> were waiting for a flight who thought she was Filipino also.
> 
> ...Bill! 
 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
You can say Asian people look alike. But language wise, Filipino is completely 
different.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 2:10 PM


  



Anthony,

Issan is indeed a Thai dialect. It's kind of a blend of Thai and Lao.

It's obvious that Chinese is the major contributor to the Thai ethnic mix. 
Their culture, written language, traditional dress, etc..., seems to also have 
a lot of Indian qualities. And physically I think the people that look the 
closest to Thais are Filipinos. In fact several times my wife was approached by 
Filipinos while we were waiting for a flight who thought she was Filipino also.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:42 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Bill,

It does not matter whether 'ha' is a dialect or a standard word, though it is 
in the textbook. My point is to stress the same root shared by Thais and 
Chinese Hans. More than 4 thousand years ago, in north China, there were 3 
emperors, the Yellow Emperor, the White Emperor and Ciyou. The latter was the 
strongest and defeated the other two repeatedly. But eventually the two united 
and prevailed over Ciyou. Then he had to flee southward to spread his 
descendents in southern provinces. A group of offspring are now the Thais. You 
can imagine how many wives Ciyou had to take to produce such a big number of 
people?

Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 11:44 AM

Anthony,

You surprise me! Your Thai is very good, and you even used the word ‘ha’ for 
‘look for’. That’s an Issan word. That's my area of Thailand. The Bangkok Thai 
word would be ‘pope’ as in ‘discover’.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:36 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

ED/Lluis,

Thai should definitely be moved closer to Chinese. They are so similar.

You can ask Bill. Most westerners in the beginning are bewildered by a sentence:

Mi khon ma ha khun (have man come look-for you, meaning somebody is here to see 
you. In Chinese, there are exactly five same words: you ren lai zhao ni).

Japanese and Koreans are outstanding in Asia. There are inflections in their 
verbs and adjectives. Maybe they are related with Hungarians and Finnish.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 5:33 AM

Hi Lluis,
'Uralic' and 'Indo-European' are clasified as related but separate families of 
languages. See chart below.
With best wishes,
--ED

http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm
Language Affinities Beween Autochthonous Populations
The second tree below essentially takes the first one but draws the tree over 
again using language rather than genetic affinities. What is of interest are 
the similarities to the first tree, indicating that human languages, which 
certainly antedate the 300,000 year mark (see Derek Bickerton, Language and 
Species [University of Chicago Press, 1990]), may also have a common origin in 
Africa itself. Many of the higher order groupings, however, as discussed above, 
are rather speculative. The theory of the "Nostratic" languages, which combines 
Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic), Indo-European, Ural-Altaic, Dravidian, and 
American Indian languages, is really the most dramatic but also may have the 
most credible evidence in common vocabulary items and systematic phonetic 
relationships. The grouping of Chinese with Basque, which otherwise seems 
unrelated to any other languages, seems more than a little bizarre but, if 
true, would be evidence of population movements
 and distribution prior to the early historical presence of Indo-European 
speakers across northern Europe and Asia. I have never seen explanations of the 
actual evidence for the Basque-Chinese connection. 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Well, I am at lost in what you mind
> 
> I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being indo-european.. 
> (so, roots in east).
> But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving) :-)
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís

Hi Lluis,
> "Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
> typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

ED;
 
Sit down
Shut up
And you will know 
 
Mayka
 
--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 15:23


  





 
Mayka:
Have you recommendations as to how the Zen Forum should police (detect and weed 
out) 'the ego' from messages, which ego, in 99.9% of humans, comprises 99.9% or 
more of 'themselves'.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> ED:
> 
> One could talk about any theme for as long the energy of practise would be 
> there.
> When the energy of the practise is there then the way of talks and chats are 
> addressed are very different. Yet there are words the same while 
> communicating.
> However, I have to say that the energy of myself practise is not at all times 
> there as the ego self gets on its way.
> Mayka
 

> > I could talk about zen practice. What sorts of things should we be talking 
> > about that would nourish zen practice?
> > --ED

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Ed

Agreed. 
As was said, I do not rely too much in such statistics,
As I said before, another genetic map related irish, bristish, basques and 
catalans.
Just take the cut in the multidimension surface you need and you could get 
whatever you wish (among some limits...That could be very broad)

With best wishes

Lluís




  - Original Message - 
  From: ED 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:14 PM
  Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas





  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
  >
  > Hi, Ed
  > Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they 
are not related genetically
  > 
  > a) something is missing in study
  > b) language has nothing to do with population origin

  > With best wishes,

  > Lluis



  Hi Lluis,

  a) There is almost always something missing from any hypothesis concerning 
language origins.

  b) Language has much to do with population origins, but there are other 
factors too, like conquests, migrations, bottlenecks, etc., etc.

  > With best wishes
  > 
  > --ED



  Note (1):

Hungarian language 
 
Closeup view of a Hungarian keyboard 
Alphabet 
õ û
cs · dz · dzs · gy
ly · ny · sz · ty · zs 
Grammar 
Noun phrases · Verbs
T-V distinction 
History 
Sound correspondences with
other Uralic languages 
Other features 
Phonetics and phonology
Vowel harmony

Orthography
(Old Hungarian script)
Hungarian names
Tongue-twisters 
Hungarian and English 
Hungarian pronunciation of English
English words from Hungarian 
Regulatory body 
v . d . e 


  Hungarian (magyar nyelv) is a Uralic language in the Ugric language group, 
distantly related to Finnish, Estonian and a number of other minority languages 
spoken in the Baltic states and northern European Russia eastward into central 
Siberia. Finno-Ugric languages are not related to the Indo-European languages 
that dominate Europe but have acquired loan words from them.



  Note (2)

  Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
spoken around the Baltic Sea.

  Finnish demonstrates an affiliation with the Uralic languages in several 
respects including:

a.. Shared morphology: ...
a.. Shared basic vocabulary displaying regular sound correspondences with 
the other Uralic languages.
  Several theories exist as to the geographic origin of Finnish and the other 
Uralic languages, but the most widely held view is that they originated as a 
Proto-Uralic language somewhere in the boreal forest belt around the Ural 
Mountains region and/or the bend of the middle Volga. The strong case for 
Proto-Uralic is supported by common vocabulary with regularities in sound 
correspondences, as well as by the fact that the Uralic languages have many 
similarities in structure and grammar.

  The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."



  Note (3)

  The relationship between Fuinnish and Hungarian languagges

  http://www.histdoc.net/sounds/hungary.html




  

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Ed

I know, I know

Having myself basque blood (my family name is basque), I searched all the 
theories that appear and go..

Last I have heard related basque to georgian.
The link with kelts I think is discarded at present.
Also the relationship to georgian...

Will see...

With best wishes

Lluís
  - Original Message - 
  From: ED 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:50 PM
  Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas





  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
  >
  > Hi, Ed
  > 
  > Thanks for map
  > 
  > They forget the basques...



  Hi Lluis,

  The mysteries of the Basque people and the Basque language have not been 
fully resolved yet.



  From wiki:

  "Since the Basque language is unrelated to Indo-European, it's often thought 
that they represent the people or culture who occupied Europe before the spread 
of Indo-European languages there.

  It is thought that Basques are a remnant of the early inhabitants of Western 
Europe, specifically those of the Franco-Cantabrian region. Basque tribes were 
already mentioned in Roman times by Strabo and Pliny, including the Vascones, 
the Aquitani and others. There is enough evidence that they already spoke 
Basque in that time.

  The Basque language is thought to be a genetic language isolate. Thus Basque 
contrasts with other European languages, almost all of which belong to the 
large Indo-European language family. 

  Another peculiarity of Basque is that it has been spoken continuously in 
situ, in and around its present territorial location, for longer than other 
modern European languages, which have all been introduced in historical or 
prehistorical times through population migrations or other processes of 
cultural transmission.[19]

  Theories about Basque origins

  The main theory about Basque origins suggested that they are a remnant of a 
pre-Indo-European population of Europe.

  DNA methods for seeking ancient ancestry are increasingly being used to test 
the origins of the Basques. An interesting possibility is that Parkinson's 
disease may be related to the Basque dardarin mutation. Partly as a result of 
DNA analysis, "...there is a general scientific consensus that the Basques 
represent the most direct descendants of the hunter-gatherers who dwelt in 
Europe before the spread of agriculture, based on both linguistic and genetic 
evidence..."

  Some studies of Basque genetic markers have also suggested the possibility of 
a connection with Celtic peoples of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall. The 
shared markers are suggestive of having passed through a genetic bottleneck 
during the peak of the last ice age, which would mean the two peoples were in 
Europe by at least about 17,000 years ago, and probably 45,000 to 50,000 years 
ago.

  Some authors have pointed out that the words for knife and axe may come from 
the root word for stone, which would point to linguistic conservativism 
preserving etymologies of at least the Neolithic. Mitochondrial DNA analysis 
tracing a rare subgroup of haplogroup U8 places the ancestry of the Basques in 
the Upper Palaeolithic, with their primitive founders originating from West 
Asia."

  > Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they 
are not related genetically
  > 
  > a) something is missing in study
  > b) language has nothing to do with population origin
  > 
  > Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical.
  > I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans 
are completely related and different form neigbourgs. 
  > 
  > Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what ever 
one desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables.
  > A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation, 
that could show a very distorted image of reality.
  > Would be like to see world through a small hole.
  > 
  > With best wishes
  > 
  > Lluís


  

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Ed

Thanks for map

They forget the basques...

Anyway, if hungarians and finnish speak same branch of language, and they are 
not related genetically

a) something is missing in study
b) language has nothing to do with population origin

Besides, as placed in an answer, that is probably statistical.
I read another genetical map in which irish, british, french and catalans are 
completely related and different form neigbourgs. 

Statistics are many times misleading; they could be used to proof what ever one 
desires. Just question to choose the adequate variables.
A two variables plot, is just a cut of a multi-dimension representation, that 
could show a very distorted image of reality.
Would be like to see world through a small hole.

With best wishes

Lluís



  - Original Message - 
  From: ED 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:41 PM
  Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas





  Genetic map of Europe

  http://bigthink.com/ideas/21358

  "Two observations spring to mind immediately: the fact that most populations 
overlap so intimately with their neighbours. And that Finland doesn't.

  The isolation of Finnish genetics can be explained by the fact that they were 
at one time a very small population, preserving its genetic idiosyncrasies as 
it expanded."



  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
  >
  > Hi, Ed
  > 
  > Sorry for my poor english
  > I tried to mean that the rest of europeans, excluding finnish, and for 
that, hungarians, lapons and seems basques, speak an indo european idiom. And 
probably population origin in Asia
  > 
  > Finnish are also westerner in my mindset (yes, it s said that they come 
here as invaders, with Attila; so maybe central asia origin)
  > 
  > I do not see them as easterner language..But not being a linguist, I maybe 
very well wrong,
  > 
  > Anyway, there is (or at least was) an extreme moviment in Hungarian that 
relates them as related to japanese, the turanism. 
  > 
  > With best wishes
  > 
  > Lluís




  

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Ed

Sorry for my poor english
I tried to mean that the rest of europeans, excluding finnish, and for that, 
hungarians, lapons and seems basques, speak an indo european idiom. And 
probably population origin in Asia

Finnish are also westerner in my mindset (yes, it s said that they come here as 
invaders, with Attila; so maybe central asia origin)

I do not see them as easterner language..But not being a linguist, I maybe very 
well wrong,

Anyway, there is (or at least was) an extreme moviment in Hungarian that 
relates them as related to japanese, the turanism. 

With best wishes

Lluís



  - Original Message - 
  From: ED 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 10:33 PM
  Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas





  Hi Lluis,

  'Uralic' and 'Indo-European' are clasified as related but separate families 
of languages.  See chart below.

  With best wishes,

  --ED



  http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm

  Language Affinities Beween Autochthonous Populations

  The second tree below essentially takes the first one but draws the tree over 
again using language rather than genetic affinities. What is of interest are 
the similarities to the first tree, indicating that human languages, which 
certainly antedate the 300,000 year mark (see Derek Bickerton, Language and 
Species [University of Chicago Press, 1990]), may also have a common origin in 
Africa itself. Many of the higher order groupings, however, as discussed above, 
are rather speculative. The theory of the "Nostratic" languages, which combines 
Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic), Indo-European, Ural-Altaic, Dravidian, and 
American Indian languages, is really the most dramatic but also may have the 
most credible evidence in common vocabulary items and systematic phonetic 
relationships. The grouping of Chinese with Basque, which otherwise seems 
unrelated to any other languages, seems more than a little bizarre but, if 
true, would be evidence of population movements and distribution prior to the 
early historical presence of Indo-European speakers across northern Europe and 
Asia. I have never seen explanations of the actual evidence for the 
Basque-Chinese connection. 








  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
  >
  > Hi, Ed
  > 
  > Well, I am at lost in what you mind
  > 
  > I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being 
indo-european.. (so, roots in east).
  > But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving) :-)
  > 
  > With best wishes
  > 
  > Lluís



  Hi Lluis,

  > "Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
depending on their roles in the sentence.
  > 
  > Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group 
of languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
spoken around the Baltic Sea.
  > 
  > The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."
  > 
  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language


  >Wist best wishes, 

  > --ED



  > Hi, Bill
  > 
  > I beg to differ in two non zen questions
  > -Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
  > The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same 
in english.
  > 
  > -finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design 
the relationship within family.
  > 
  > With best wishes
  > 
  > Lluís




  > Anthony,
  > 
  > I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
  > thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.
  > 
  > For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by
  > saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
  > casual in your speech.
  > 
  > I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
  > example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
  > there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
  > identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
  > there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
  > think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
  > more importance on personal relationships than time.
  > 
  > ...Bill!


  

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Bill

No idea in finnish, but I suppose that all idioms have their specialities

German: Bedeute bedeutes Bedeute, english "Means means means", spanish 
"significa significa significa"
Idem in catalan

Catalan: a cap cap cap lo que cap en aquest cap: "in no head could be placed 
what this head could contain"

With best wishes

Lluís
  - Original Message - 
  From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:37 AM
  Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas




  Anthony,



  Actually Thai does not really have three tenses as I said, not in the same 
way as English or Spanish has.  They only have one form of a verb – Present 
tense.  They use modifiers to designate other tenses, but only two other tenses 
I know of – Past and Future.



  An example would be the transliteration of the Thai word for ‘go’ is ‘bai’ 
(pronounced like ‘bye’).  So:



  ‘go’ would be ‘bai’

  ‘gone’ or ‘have gone’ would be ‘bai laow’ (like ‘go already’)

  ‘will go’ would be ‘ja bai’



  That’s it.  As far as I know there is no way to translate something like ‘By 
next Tuesday I will have been going to class for 5 weeks’.



  Thai’s also have 5 tones: high, medium, low, rising and falling.  These tones 
could be applied to any word (syllable) such as ‘mai’.  The syllable ‘mai’, 
depending on the tone used, could mean: ‘new’, ‘wood’, ‘no’, ‘burn’ or denote a 
question if placed at the end of a statement (with a rising tone).  So the 
question ‘New word doesn’t burn, does it?’ could be expressed using only the 
syllable ‘mai’ with different tones like this: ‘wood new no burn [question]’.



  How would you say that in Finnish?



  …Bill!



  From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:13 AM
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas





Bill,



Oriental languages do not deemphasize time or personal relationships. 
They rely on adjectives, adverbs, pronouns etc to donate time and 
relationships, while westerners inflect the words for the same purposes.



I am surprised to hear Thai has three tenses. Where are they?



Anthony

--- On Sat, 13/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  
wrote:


  From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
          Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 3:09 PM



  Anthony,

  I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, 
but I
  thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

  For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask 
by
  saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
  casual in your speech.

  I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
  example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; 
whereas
  there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to 
specifically
  identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
  there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
  think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas 
Asians put
  more importance on personal relationships than time.

  ...Bill!

  From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf
  Of ED
  Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 9:53 AM
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



   
  The Geography of Thought: How Culture Colors the Way the Mind ...
   
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
  >
  > ED,
  >  
  > That is not the way it is. It is too complicated to explain, but the
  oriental way is different from occidental. The former is synthetic, 
while
  the latter analytical. So you need subjects, objects, predicates, 
adverbials
  and other nonsense to try to complete your analysis. In other words, 
the
  westerners are more discriminating (in general).
  >  
  > Anthony
   
  > Anthony,
  > I think the reason is that Zen Masters use the Tantric principle 
that one
  should behave in ways as if one already possesses that which one 
aspires to
  attain; in this case, to possess a non-dualistic mind that does not
  discriminate between subject and object.
  > --ED
  > > ED,
  > > 
  > > Many oriental sentences are without subjects or objects. Bill

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Bill

Hungry! has also an implied subject: I am hungry!

Fire! has also one, "it" : It is in fire! (although could be also "there is a 
fire!" and that would be impersonal, I suppose)
Uggh!
Y only know true impersonals (no subject ) in spanish, catalan and french

On vende .
Se vende botellas ("se venden botellas" is a pasiva refleja, not a true 
impersonal That drived me crazy in Bacchaloreat)

Seems that westerners are tied to sujects and verbs.

With best wishes

Lluís
  - Original Message - 
  From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:39 AM
  Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



  Lluis,

  In the example I used 'Hungry?' you are correct that the subject (you) is
  implied probably because it is a question. How about 'Hungry!'; or better
  yet 'Fire!'?. In the case of 'Fire!' there is no subject/object implied -
  just 'Fire!', Just THIS!

  It's interesting to learn that Finnish has a lot of words to define
  relationships.

  .Bill!

  From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
  Of Lluís Mendieta
  Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 4:06 PM
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


  Hi, Bill
   
  I beg to differ in two non zen questions
  -Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
   The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same
  in english.
   
  -finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the
  relationship within family.
   
  With best wishes
   
  Lluís
   
   
  - Original Message - 
  From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 8:09 AM
  Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas


  Anthony,

  I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
  thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

  For example, I could ask you: 'Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by
  saying: 'Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
  casual in your speech.

  I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
  example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
  there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
  identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
  there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
  think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
  more importance on personal relationships than time.

  ...Bill!

  From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

  __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
  database 5618 (20101114) __

  The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

  http://www.eset.com


  __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
  database 5618 (20101114) __

  The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

  http://www.eset.com




  

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

ED:
 
One could talk about any theme for as long the energy of practise would be 
there.  When the energy of the practise is there then the way of talks and 
chats are addressed are very different.  Yet there are words the same while 
communicating.  However, I have to say that the energy of myself practise is 
not at all times there as the ego self gets on its way. Not sure I can explain 
well.  Anyway going right now for a whole day Sunday retreat.  Enjoy your 
Sunday.
Mayka

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 0:06


  





Mayka,
I could talk about zen practice. What sorts of things should we be talking 
about that would nourish zen practice?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> ED:
>   
> No I don't have any objection of people having a good time for as long and as 
> the central theme was a nourishement of zen practice as Anthony pointed out. 
> But how that could be when the energy of  the practice is not present in us 
> most of time as we get engaged in intelectual debates?
>  
> Enjoy your weekend
> Mayka

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

Issan is indeed a Thai dialect.  It's kind of a blend of Thai and Lao.

It's obvious that Chinese is the major contributor to the Thai ethnic mix.  
Their culture, written language, traditional dress, etc..., seems to also have 
a lot of Indian qualities.  And physically I think the people that look the 
closest to Thais are Filipinos.  In fact several times my wife was approached 
by Filipinos while we were waiting for a flight who thought she was Filipino 
also.

...Bill!   

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:42 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Bill,

It does not matter whether 'ha' is a dialect or a standard word, though it is 
in the textbook. My point is to stress the same root shared by Thais and 
Chinese Hans. More than 4 thousand years ago, in north China, there were 3 
emperors, the Yellow Emperor, the White Emperor and Ciyou. The latter was the 
strongest and defeated the other two repeatedly. But eventually the two united 
and prevailed over Ciyou. Then he had to flee southward to spread his 
descendents in southern provinces. A group of offspring are now the Thais. You 
can imagine how many wives Ciyou had to take to produce such a big number of 
people?

Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 11:44 AM
  
Anthony,

You surprise me! Your Thai is very good, and you even used the word ‘ha’ for 
‘look for’. That’s an Issan word. That's my area of Thailand. The Bangkok Thai 
word would be ‘pope’ as in ‘discover’.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:36 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

ED/Lluis,

Thai should definitely be moved closer to Chinese. They are so similar.

You can ask Bill. Most westerners in the beginning are bewildered by a sentence:

Mi khon ma ha khun (have man come look-for you, meaning somebody is here to see 
you. In Chinese, there are exactly five same words: you ren lai zhao ni).

Japanese and Koreans are outstanding in Asia. There are inflections in their 
verbs and adjectives. Maybe they are related with Hungarians and Finnish.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 5:33 AM


Hi Lluis,
'Uralic' and 'Indo-European' are clasified as related but separate families of 
languages. See chart below.
With best wishes,
--ED

http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm
Language Affinities Beween Autochthonous Populations
The second tree below essentially takes the first one but draws the tree over 
again using language rather than genetic affinities. What is of interest are 
the similarities to the first tree, indicating that human languages, which 
certainly antedate the 300,000 year mark (see Derek Bickerton, Language and 
Species [University of Chicago Press, 1990]), may also have a common origin in 
Africa itself. Many of the higher order groupings, however, as discussed above, 
are rather speculative. The theory of the "Nostratic" languages, which combines 
Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic), Indo-European, Ural-Altaic, Dravidian, and 
American Indian languages, is really the most dramatic but also may have the 
most credible evidence in common vocabulary items and systematic phonetic 
relationships. The grouping of Chinese with Basque, which otherwise seems 
unrelated to any other languages, seems more than a little bizarre but, if 
true, would be evidence of population movements and distribution prior to the 
early historical presence of Indo-European speakers across northern Europe and 
Asia. I have never seen explanations of the actual evidence for the 
Basque-Chinese connection. 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Well, I am at lost in what you mind
> 
> I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being indo-european.. 
> (so, roots in east).
> But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving) :-)
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís

Hi Lluis,
> "Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
> typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
> inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
> depending on their roles in the sentence.
> 
> Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
> languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
> Baltic-Finnic subgroup 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,

It does not matter whether 'ha' is a dialect or a standard word, though it is 
in the textbook. My point is to stress the same root shared by Thais and 
Chinese Hans. More than 4 thousand years ago, in north China, there were 3 
emperors, the Yellow Emperor, the White Emperor and Ciyou. The latter was the 
strongest and defeated the other two repeatedly. But eventually the two united 
and prevailed over Ciyou. Then he had to flee southward to spread his 
descendents in southern provinces. A group of offspring are now the Thais. You 
can imagine how many wives Ciyou had to take to produce such a big number of 
people?

Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 11:44 AM







 



  



  
  
  Anthony,



You surprise me!  Your Thai is very good, and you even used the word ‘ha’ for 
‘look for’.  That’s an Issan word.  That's my area of Thailand.  The Bangkok 
Thai word would be ‘pope’ as in ‘discover’.



…Bill!



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu

Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:36 AM

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



ED/Lluis,

 

Thai should definitely be moved closer to Chinese. They are so similar.

 

You can ask Bill. Most westerners in the beginning are bewildered by a sentence:

 

Mi khon ma ha khun (have man come look-for you, meaning somebody is here to see 
you. In Chinese, there are exactly five same words: you ren lai zhao ni).

 

Japanese and Koreans are outstanding in Asia. There are inflections in their 
verbs and adjectives. Maybe they are related with Hungarians and Finnish.

 

Anthony



--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:



From: ED 

Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 5:33 AM

  



Hi Lluis,

'Uralic' and 'Indo-European' are clasified as related but separate families of 
languages.  See chart below.

With best wishes,

--ED

 

http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm

Language Affinities Beween Autochthonous Populations

The second tree below essentially takes the first one but draws the tree over 
again using language rather than genetic affinities. What is of interest are 
the similarities to the first tree, indicating that human languages, which 
certainly antedate the 300,000 year mark (see Derek Bickerton, Language and 
Species [University of Chicago Press, 1990]), may also have a common origin in 
Africa itself. Many of the higher order groupings, however, as discussed above, 
are rather speculative. The theory of the "Nostratic" languages, which combines 
Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic), Indo-European, Ural-Altaic, Dravidian, and 
American Indian languages, is really the most dramatic but also may have the 
most credible evidence in common vocabulary items and systematic phonetic 
relationships. The grouping of Chinese with Basque, which otherwise seems 
unrelated to any other languages, seems more than a little bizarre but, if 
true, would be evidence of population movements
 and distribution prior to the early historical presence of Indo-European 
speakers across northern Europe and Asia. I have never seen explanations of the 
actual evidence for the Basque-Chinese connection. 



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:

>

> Hi, Ed

> 

> Well, I am at lost in what you mind

> 

> I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being indo-european.. 
> (so, roots in east).

> But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving) :-)

> 

> With best wishes

> 

> Lluís

 

Hi Lluis,

> "Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
> typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
> inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
> depending on their roles in the sentence.

> 

> Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
> languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
> Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
> spoken around the Baltic Sea.

> 

> The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
> neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
> language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
> therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
> Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."

> 

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language

>Wist best wishes, 

> --ED

 

> Hi, Bill

> 

> I beg to differ in

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,

Thank you . I leaned some more Thai.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 11:44 AM







 



  



  
  
  Anthony,



Thai’s do an unusual thing with names.  Their names are basically the same as 
Western names: given name – family name.  But when they list them 
alphabetically, like in a phone book, they alphabetize by the first (given) 
name.   That presents as  little problem for computer programs…Bill!



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu

Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:23 AM

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



ED/Lluis,

 

I know nothing about Finnish, but I heard it is related to Hungarian, both have 
something to do with Jenghis Khan or Atila's migration to the west. I also 
heard the Hungarians put their given names after the familay names. For 
example, it will be Smart Bill (sounds better), instead of Bill Smart. Is that 
right?

 

Anthony



--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:



From: ED 

Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 2:56 AM

  

 

"Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
depending on their roles in the sentence.

Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
spoken around the Baltic Sea.

The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language

 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:

>

Hi, Bill

 

I beg to differ in two non zen questions

-Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.

 The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in 
english.

 

-finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the 
relationship within family.

 

With best wishes

 

Lluís

 



Anthony,



I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I

thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.



For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by

saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being

casual in your speech.



I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For

example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas

there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically

identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English

there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I

think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put

more importance on personal relationships than time.



...Bill!



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5618 (20101114) __



The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.



http://www.eset.com



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5618 (20101114) __



The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.



http://www.eset.com

 



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5618 (20101114) __



The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.



http://www.eset.com

 






 





 



  

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,

You mean a dog feels pain, but doesn't suffer. You have to cram 'Doggie 
Language Made Simple' and argue with a dog.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 11:37 AM







 



  



  
  
  Anthony,



I’m sure you’ve seen a dog with only three legs.  It doesn’t suffer, at least 
doesn’t suffer from the self-pity that most humans would have.



The self-pity (or envy) is what the Buddhist ‘suffering’ refers to – not 
physical discomforts such as pain, hunger, etc…



…Bill!



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu

Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:51 AM

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



ED,

 

Your picture says, 'if you don't ask, you don't suffer'. That is nonsense. 
Suffering exists whether you ask or not. The difference is whether you know it.

 

Anthony



--- On Sat, 13/11/10, ED  wrote:



From: ED 

Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 10:48 AM

  



Anthony,

Expressed simply and with greater inclusivenes, all living things (humans, 
animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, etc.)  seek their own self-interest, namely, 
to eat, survive and reproduce.

--ED

 

The Science of "Why We Suffer"



http://appliedbuddhism.com/2010/08/30/the-science-of-%E2%80%9Cwhy-we-suffer/

 

 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:

>

> ED,

>  

> I am 90% in agreement with you. That is the result of human's greed, aversion 
> and delusion.

>  

> Anthony

 

> Anthony,

> 

> That's the way human nature has evolved.

> 

> --ED



> > ED,

> >

> > You are saying (almost): everybody is a hypocrite. Is that the way the

> > world is?

> >

> > anthony



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5618 (20101114) __



The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.



http://www.eset.com

 



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5618 (20101114) __



The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.



http://www.eset.com

 






 





 



  

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,

They are not tenses. Modifiers are used to denote them.

By next Tuesday I will have been going to class for 5 weeks.

can be translated into Chinese as:

Xia xingqier wo jianghui shang wuge xingqi ke le.

The 'le' at the end is the equivalent of the Thai 'laow'.

I am sure there is the same way in Thai. Ask your tigress.

You ask me about Finnish? That is as much as asking you how to translate into 
Mongolian.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 11:37 AM







 



  



  
  
  Anthony,  Actually Thai does not really have three tenses as I said, not 
in the same way as English or Spanish has.  They only have one form of a verb – 
Present tense.  They use modifiers to designate other tenses, but only two 
other tenses I know of – Past and Future.  An example would be the 
transliteration of the Thai word for ‘go’ is ‘bai’ (pronounced like ‘bye’).  
So:  ‘go’ would be ‘bai’‘gone’ or ‘have gone’ would be ‘bai laow’ (like ‘go 
already’)‘will go’ would be ‘ja bai’  That’s it.  As far as I know there is no 
way to translate something like ‘By next Tuesday I will have been going to 
class for 5 weeks’.  Thai’s also have 5 tones: high, medium, low, rising and 
falling.  These tones could be applied to any word (syllable) such as ‘mai’.  
The syllable ‘mai’, depending on the tone used, could mean: ‘new’, ‘wood’, 
‘no’, ‘burn’ or denote a question if
 placed at the end of a statement (with a rising tone).  So the question ‘New 
word doesn’t burn, does it?’ could be expressed using only the syllable ‘mai’ 
with different tones like this: ‘wood new no burn [question]’.  How would you 
say that in Finnish?  …Bill!  From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:13 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas    Bill, Oriental 
languages do not deemphasize time or personal relationships. They rely on 
adjectives, adverbs, pronouns etc to donate time and relationships, while 
westerners inflect the words for the same purposes. I am surprised to hear Thai 
has three tenses. Where are they? Anthony

--- On Sat, 13/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 3:09 PM  Anthony,

I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask by
saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 9:53 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

 
The Geography of Thought: How Culture Colors the Way the Mind ...
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>  
> That is not the way it is. It is too complicated to explain, but the
oriental way is different from occidental. The former is synthetic, while
the latter analytical. So you need subjects, objects, predicates, adverbials
and other nonsense to try to complete your analysis. In other words, the
westerners are more discriminating (in general).
>  
> Anthony
 
> Anthony,
> I think the reason is that Zen Masters use the Tantric principle that one
should behave in ways as if one already possesses that which one aspires to
attain; in this case, to possess a non-dualistic mind that does not
discriminate between subject and object.
> --ED
> > ED,
> > 
> > Many oriental sentences are without subjects or objects. Bill is
completely adjusted to Thailand, and the zen way. They are very grammatical
here.
> > 
> > Anthony
 
> > Bill,
> > Nice succinct answer. 
> > And, question:  Your zen-like statement in ungrammatical, without
subject or object. Is this a zen tradition of speaking, with a view to
 training the mind out of its customary dualistic mode of experiencing
reality?
> > Thank you, ED
 
> > Mayka and Ed,
> > 
> > Or perhaps Bill! wo

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

You surprise me!  Your Thai is very good, and you even used the word ‘ha’ for 
‘look for’.  That’s an Issan word.  That's my area of Thailand.  The Bangkok 
Thai word would be ‘pope’ as in ‘discover’.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:36 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
ED/Lluis,
 
Thai should definitely be moved closer to Chinese. They are so similar.
 
You can ask Bill. Most westerners in the beginning are bewildered by a sentence:
 
Mi khon ma ha khun (have man come look-for you, meaning somebody is here to see 
you. In Chinese, there are exactly five same words: you ren lai zhao ni).
 
Japanese and Koreans are outstanding in Asia. There are inflections in their 
verbs and adjectives. Maybe they are related with Hungarians and Finnish.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 5:33 AM
  

Hi Lluis,
'Uralic' and 'Indo-European' are clasified as related but separate families of 
languages.  See chart below.
With best wishes,
--ED
 
http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm
Language Affinities Beween Autochthonous Populations
The second tree below essentially takes the first one but draws the tree over 
again using language rather than genetic affinities. What is of interest are 
the similarities to the first tree, indicating that human languages, which 
certainly antedate the 300,000 year mark (see Derek Bickerton, Language and 
Species [University of Chicago Press, 1990]), may also have a common origin in 
Africa itself. Many of the higher order groupings, however, as discussed above, 
are rather speculative. The theory of the "Nostratic" languages, which combines 
Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic), Indo-European, Ural-Altaic, Dravidian, and 
American Indian languages, is really the most dramatic but also may have the 
most credible evidence in common vocabulary items and systematic phonetic 
relationships. The grouping of Chinese with Basque, which otherwise seems 
unrelated to any other languages, seems more than a little bizarre but, if 
true, would be evidence of population movements and distribution prior to the 
early historical presence of Indo-European speakers across northern Europe and 
Asia. I have never seen explanations of the actual evidence for the 
Basque-Chinese connection. 

 
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Well, I am at lost in what you mind
> 
> I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being indo-european.. 
> (so, roots in east).
> But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving) :-)
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís
 
Hi Lluis,
> "Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
> typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
> inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
> depending on their roles in the sentence.
> 
> Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
> languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
> Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
> spoken around the Baltic Sea.
> 
> The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
> neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
> language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
> therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
> Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language
>Wist best wishes, 
> --ED
 
> Hi, Bill
> 
> I beg to differ in two non zen questions
> -Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
> The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in 
> english.
> 
> -finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the 
> relationship within family.
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís
 
> Anthony,
> 
> I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
> thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.
> 
> For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by
> saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
> casual in your speech.
> 
> I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
> example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
> there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to 

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

Thai’s do an unusual thing with names.  Their names are basically the same as 
Western names: given name – family name.  But when they list them 
alphabetically, like in a phone book, they alphabetize by the first (given) 
name.   That presents as  little problem for computer programs…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:23 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
ED/Lluis,
 
I know nothing about Finnish, but I heard it is related to Hungarian, both have 
something to do with Jenghis Khan or Atila's migration to the west. I also 
heard the Hungarians put their given names after the familay names. For 
example, it will be Smart Bill (sounds better), instead of Bill Smart. Is that 
right?
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 2:56 AM
  
 
"Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
depending on their roles in the sentence.
Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
spoken around the Baltic Sea.
The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
Hi, Bill
 
I beg to differ in two non zen questions
-Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
 The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in 
english.
 
-finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the 
relationship within family.
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 

  
Anthony,

I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by
saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf





__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5618 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5618 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5618 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

I’m sure you’ve seen a dog with only three legs.  It doesn’t suffer, at least 
doesn’t suffer from the self-pity that most humans would have.

The self-pity (or envy) is what the Buddhist ‘suffering’ refers to – not 
physical discomforts such as pain, hunger, etc…

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:51 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
ED,
 
Your picture says, 'if you don't ask, you don't suffer'. That is nonsense. 
Suffering exists whether you ask or not. The difference is whether you know it.
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 13/11/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 10:48 AM
  

Anthony,
Expressed simply and with greater inclusivenes, all living things (humans, 
animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, etc.)  seek their own self-interest, namely, 
to eat, survive and reproduce.
--ED
 
The Science of "Why We Suffer"

http://appliedbuddhism.com/2010/08/30/the-science-of-%E2%80%9Cwhy-we-suffer/
 
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>  
> I am 90% in agreement with you. That is the result of human's greed, aversion 
> and delusion.
>  
> Anthony
 
> Anthony,
> 
> That's the way human nature has evolved.
> 
> --ED

 
> > ED,
> >
> > You are saying (almost): everybody is a hypocrite. Is that the way the
> > world is?
> >
> > anthony




__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5618 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5618 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

 

Actually Thai does not really have three tenses as I said, not in the same way 
as English or Spanish has.  They only have one form of a verb – Present tense.  
They use modifiers to designate other tenses, but only two other tenses I know 
of – Past and Future.

 

An example would be the transliteration of the Thai word for ‘go’ is ‘bai’ 
(pronounced like ‘bye’).  So:

 

‘go’ would be ‘bai’

‘gone’ or ‘have gone’ would be ‘bai laow’ (like ‘go already’)

‘will go’ would be ‘ja bai’

 

That’s it.  As far as I know there is no way to translate something like ‘By 
next Tuesday I will have been going to class for 5 weeks’.

 

Thai’s also have 5 tones: high, medium, low, rising and falling.  These tones 
could be applied to any word (syllable) such as ‘mai’.  The syllable ‘mai’, 
depending on the tone used, could mean: ‘new’, ‘wood’, ‘no’, ‘burn’ or denote a 
question if placed at the end of a statement (with a rising tone).  So the 
question ‘New word doesn’t burn, does it?’ could be expressed using only the 
syllable ‘mai’ with different tones like this: ‘wood new no burn [question]’.

 

How would you say that in Finnish?

 

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:13 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

 

  


Bill,

 

Oriental languages do not deemphasize time or personal relationships. They rely 
on adjectives, adverbs, pronouns etc to donate time and relationships, while 
westerners inflect the words for the same purposes.

 

I am surprised to hear Thai has three tenses. Where are they?

 

Anthony

--- On Sat, 13/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 3:09 PM

  

Anthony,

I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask by
saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>  
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ] On 
Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 9:53 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

 
The Geography of Thought: How Culture Colors the Way the Mind ...
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
<http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> , 
Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>  
> That is not the way it is. It is too complicated to explain, but the
oriental way is different from occidental. The former is synthetic, while
the latter analytical. So you need subjects, objects, predicates, adverbials
and other nonsense to try to complete your analysis. In other words, the
westerners are more discriminating (in general).
>  
> Anthony
 
> Anthony,
> I think the reason is that Zen Masters use the Tantric principle that one
should behave in ways as if one already possesses that which one aspires to
attain; in this case, to possess a non-dualistic mind that does not
discriminate between subject and object.
> --ED
> > ED,
> > 
> > Many oriental sentences are without subjects or objects. Bill is
completely adjusted to Thailand, and the zen way. They are very grammatical
here.
> > 
> > Anthony
 
> > Bill,
> > Nice succinct answer. 
> > And, question:  Your zen-like statement in ungrammatical, without
subject or object. Is this a zen tradition of speaking, with a view to
 training the mind out of its customary dualistic mode of experiencing
reality?
> > Thank you, ED
 
> > Mayka and Ed,
> > 
> > Or perhaps Bill! would say: 'No effort, no judgment, no grasping, no
> > pushing-away, no concepts - Just THIS!
> > 
> > ...Bill!

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com <h

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Lluis,

In the example I used ‘Hungry?’ you are correct that the subject (you) is
implied probably because it is a question.  How about ‘Hungry!’;  or better
yet ‘Fire!’?.  In the case of ‘Fire!’ there is no subject/object implied –
just ‘Fire!’, Just THIS!

It’s interesting to learn that Finnish has a lot of words to define
relationships.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 4:06 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
I beg to differ in two non zen questions
-Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
 The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same
in english.
 
-finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the
relationship within family.
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Anthony,

I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask by
saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5618 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5618 (20101114) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

ED:
 
Apologies. Can't understand myself previous post. Trying   again here:
 
I don't understand your questioning here.  It doesn't make much sense for 
instance the question:  "What do you mean by "
Do you have an attachment to your need for 'them' to practise more?".  Need of 
what?, Attachment to what?.  Can you elaborate it, please?
 
ED:...but I suspect that you are saying that persons who do not do sufficient 
zazen are not worth listening to. Yes?
Mayka: No I didn't mean that.  What I meant was that although that is true that 
in order to experience Buddha Nature no requirement of inteligence is 
required.  This wouldn't be applicable while participating in a zen forum like 
this one where intelectual is 99% the dominant power.  And  therefore  there 
wasn't much need of  Buddha Nature energy be present for participation 
but to be inteligent and smart. 
 
No I don't have any objection of people having a good time for as long and as 
the central theme was a nourishement of zen practice as Anthony pointed out. 
But how that could be when the energy of  the practice is not present in us 
most of time as we get engaged in intelectual debates?
 
Enjoy your weekend 
Mayka
 


--- On Sat, 13/11/10, Maria Lopez  wrote:


From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 22:56


  








Hi ED:
 
I don't understand your questioning here.  It doesn't make much sense for 
instance the question:  "What do you mean by "
Do you have an attachment to your need for 'them' to practice more?".  
Attachemnt to what?.  Can you elaborate it?
 
ED:...but I suspect that you are saying that persons who do not do sufficient 
zazen are not worth listening to. Yes?
Mayka: No I didn't mean that.  What I meant was that although that is true that 
in order to experience Buddha Nature no requirement of inteligence is required 
while participating in a zen forum like this one where intelectual is 99% the 
dominant power then  there wasn't much need  Buddha Nature energy for 
participation but to be inteligent and smart. 
 
No I don't have any objection of people having a good time if as Anthony 
pointed out the central theme is a nourishement of zen practice.  But how that 
could be when the energy of  practice is not present?
 
 
 
 --- On Thu, 11/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 11 November, 2010, 15:06


  


 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Bill:
> 
> It meant to be a sarcastic joke.  
 
> But anyway to participate in this forum and most of them last thing important 
> is the practice.  
Mayka, 
Do you have an attachment to your need for 'them' to practice more?
 
> So your point here wouldn't be applicable anyway.  
I am not sure I understand you here, but I suspect that you are saying that 
persons who do not do sufficient zazen are not worth listening to. Yes?
 
> You don't shine because of your practice but because of your inteligence and 
> being very smart, ...
I agree, even though it may well swell Bill's 'no mind' head.  ;-)
 
>People are not interested in zen as zen but to have a good time.  And 
>you provide that.  
> Mayka
And, do you have any objections?
--ED
 
> Mayka,
> 
> You don't need a high level of intelligence to understand my last post. All 
> that's required is that you've read the posts for the past several days.
> 
> I don't think your intelligence level is appreciably different than 
> Anthony's, but that doesn't matter on this forum. Intelligence (as in IQ) is 
> not a requirement for zen. In fact sometimes I think a high IQ is a detriment.
> 
> ...Bill!

 
> Bill:
> 
> You sound mysterious. I wonder what you're trying to tell me. Do remember 
> that my intelligence is in much lower degree than the one from Anthony.
> 
> Mayka
 
> Mayka,
> 
> Oh yes! And Ed has quite an aroma also. But those are just the things you 
> have to put up with if you're going to catch a baby tiger.
> Bill!

 
 

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Maria Lopez]

Hi ED:
 
I don't understand your questioning here.  It doesn't make much sense for 
instance the question:  "What do you mean by "
Do you have an attachment to your need for 'them' to practice more?".  
Attachemnt to what?.  Can you elaborate it?
 
ED:...but I suspect that you are saying that persons who do not do sufficient 
zazen are not worth listening to. Yes?
Mayka: No I didn't mean that.  What I meant was that although that is true that 
in order to experience Buddha Nature no requirement of inteligence is required 
while participating in a zen forum like this one where intelectual is 99% the 
dominant power then  there wasn't much need  Buddha Nature energy for 
participation but to be inteligent and smart. 
 
No I don't have any objection of people having a good time if as Anthony 
pointed out the central theme is a nourishement of zen practice.  But how that 
could be when the energy of  practice is not present?
 
 
 
 --- On Thu, 11/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 11 November, 2010, 15:06


  




 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Bill:
> 
> It meant to be a sarcastic joke.  
 
> But anyway to participate in this forum and most of them last thing important 
> is the practice.  
Mayka, 
Do you have an attachment to your need for 'them' to practice more?
 
> So your point here wouldn't be applicable anyway.  
I am not sure I understand you here, but I suspect that you are saying that 
persons who do not do sufficient zazen are not worth listening to. Yes?
 
> You don't shine because of your practice but because of your inteligence and 
> being very smart, ...
I agree, even though it may well swell Bill's 'no mind' head.  ;-)
 
>People are not interested in zen as zen but to have a good time.  And 
>you provide that.  
> Mayka
And, do you have any objections?
--ED
 
> Mayka,
> 
> You don't need a high level of intelligence to understand my last post. All 
> that's required is that you've read the posts for the past several days.
> 
> I don't think your intelligence level is appreciably different than 
> Anthony's, but that doesn't matter on this forum. Intelligence (as in IQ) is 
> not a requirement for zen. In fact sometimes I think a high IQ is a detriment.
> 
> ...Bill!

 
> Bill:
> 
> You sound mysterious. I wonder what you're trying to tell me. Do remember 
> that my intelligence is in much lower degree than the one from Anthony.
> 
> Mayka
 
> Mayka,
> 
> Oh yes! And Ed has quite an aroma also. But those are just the things you 
> have to put up with if you're going to catch a baby tiger.
> Bill!

 
 

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

ED/Lluis,
 
Thai should definitely be moved closer to Chinese. They are so similar.
 
You can ask Bill. Most westerners in the beginning are bewildered by a sentence:
 
Mi khon ma ha khun (have man come look-for you, meaning somebody is here to see 
you. In Chinese, there are exactly five same words: you ren lai zhao ni).
 
Japanese and Koreans are outstanding in Asia. There are inflections in their 
verbs and adjectives. Maybe they are related with Hungarians and Finnish.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 5:33 AM


  





Hi Lluis,
'Uralic' and 'Indo-European' are clasified as related but separate families of 
languages.  See chart below.
With best wishes,
--ED
 
http://www.friesian.com/trees.htm
Language Affinities Beween Autochthonous Populations
The second tree below essentially takes the first one but draws the tree over 
again using language rather than genetic affinities. What is of interest are 
the similarities to the first tree, indicating that human languages, which 
certainly antedate the 300,000 year mark (see Derek Bickerton, Language and 
Species [University of Chicago Press, 1990]), may also have a common origin in 
Africa itself. Many of the higher order groupings, however, as discussed above, 
are rather speculative. The theory of the "Nostratic" languages, which combines 
Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic), Indo-European, Ural-Altaic, Dravidian, and 
American Indian languages, is really the most dramatic but also may have the 
most credible evidence in common vocabulary items and systematic phonetic 
relationships. The grouping of Chinese with Basque, which otherwise seems 
unrelated to any other languages, seems more than a little bizarre but, if 
true, would be evidence of population movements
 and distribution prior to the early historical presence of Indo-European 
speakers across northern Europe and Asia. I have never seen explanations of the 
actual evidence for the Basque-Chinese connection. 


 
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed
> 
> Well, I am at lost in what you mind
> 
> I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being indo-european.. 
> (so, roots in east).
> But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving) :-)
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís
 
Hi Lluis,
> "Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
> typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
> inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
> depending on their roles in the sentence.
> 
> Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
> languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
> Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
> spoken around the Baltic Sea.
> 
> The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
> neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
> language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
> therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
> Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language

>Wist best wishes, 
> --ED
 
> Hi, Bill
> 
> I beg to differ in two non zen questions
> -Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
> The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in 
> english.
> 
> -finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the 
> relationship within family.
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Lluís

 
> Anthony,
> 
> I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
> thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.
> 
> For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by
> saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
> casual in your speech.
> 
> I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
> example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
> there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
> identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
> there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
> think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
> more importance on personal relationships than time.
> 
> ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

ED/Lluis,
 
I know nothing about Finnish, but I heard it is related to Hungarian, both have 
something to do with Jenghis Khan or Atila's migration to the west. I also 
heard the Hungarians put their given names after the familay names. For 
example, it will be Smart Bill (sounds better), instead of Bill Smart. Is that 
right?
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 14/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 14 November, 2010, 2:56 AM


  




 
"Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
depending on their roles in the sentence.
Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
spoken around the Baltic Sea.
The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
>

Hi, Bill
 
I beg to differ in two non zen questions
-Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
 The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in 
english.
 
-finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the 
relationship within family.
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 

  


Anthony,

I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by
saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
Oriental languages do not deemphasize time or personal relationships. They rely 
on adjectives, adverbs, pronouns etc to donate time and relationships, while 
westerners inflect the words for the same purposes.
 
I am surprised to hear Thai has three tenses. Where are they?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 13/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 3:09 PM


  



Anthony,

I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask by
saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 9:53 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

 
The Geography of Thought: How Culture Colors the Way the Mind ...
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>  
> That is not the way it is. It is too complicated to explain, but the
oriental way is different from occidental. The former is synthetic, while
the latter analytical. So you need subjects, objects, predicates, adverbials
and other nonsense to try to complete your analysis. In other words, the
westerners are more discriminating (in general).
>  
> Anthony
 
> Anthony,
> I think the reason is that Zen Masters use the Tantric principle that one
should behave in ways as if one already possesses that which one aspires to
attain; in this case, to possess a non-dualistic mind that does not
discriminate between subject and object.
> --ED
> > ED,
> > 
> > Many oriental sentences are without subjects or objects. Bill is
completely adjusted to Thailand, and the zen way. They are very grammatical
here.
> > 
> > Anthony
 
> > Bill,
> > Nice succinct answer. 
> > And, question:  Your zen-like statement in ungrammatical, without
subject or object. Is this a zen tradition of speaking, with a view to
 training the mind out of its customary dualistic mode of experiencing
reality?
> > Thank you, ED
 
> > Mayka and Ed,
> > 
> > Or perhaps Bill! would say: 'No effort, no judgment, no grasping, no
> > pushing-away, no concepts - Just THIS!
> > 
> > ...Bill!

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

ED,
 
That is a good article.
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 13/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 10:57 AM


  







The geography of thought: How culture colors the way the mind works
http://ns.umich.edu/Releases/2003/Feb03/r022703a.html
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>  
> That is not the way it is. It is too complicated to explain, but the oriental 
> way is different from occidental. The former is synthetic, while the latter 
> analytical. So you need subjects, objects, predicates, adverbials and other 
> nonsense to try to complete your analysis. In other words, the westerners are 
> more discriminating (in general).
>  
> Anthony
 
> Anthony,
> I think the reason is that Zen Masters use the Tantric principle that one 
> should behave in ways as if one already possesses that which one aspires to 
> attain; in this case, to possess a non-dualistic mind that does not 
> discriminate between subject and object.
> --ED

> > ED,
> > 
> > Many oriental sentences are without subjects or objects. Bill is completely 
> > adjusted to Thailand, and the zen way. They are very grammatical here.
> > 
> > Anthony

 
> > Bill,
> > Nice succinct answer. 
> > And, question:  Your zen-like statement in ungrammatical, without subject 
> > or object. Is this a zen tradition of speaking, with a view to  training 
> > the mind out of its customary dualistic mode of experiencing reality?
> > Thank you, ED


> > Mayka and Ed,
> > 
> > Or perhaps Bill! would say: 'No effort, no judgment, no grasping, no
> > pushing-away, no concepts - Just THIS!
> > 
> > ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Anthony Wu]

ED,
 
Your picture says, 'if you don't ask, you don't suffer'. That is nonsense. 
Suffering exists whether you ask or not. The difference is whether you know it.
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 13/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 13 November, 2010, 10:48 AM


  





Anthony,
Expressed simply and with greater inclusivenes, all living things (humans, 
animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, etc.)  seek their own self-interest, namely, 
to eat, survive and reproduce.
--ED
 
The Science of "Why We Suffer"

http://appliedbuddhism.com/2010/08/30/the-science-of-%E2%80%9Cwhy-we-suffer/
 
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>  
> I am 90% in agreement with you. That is the result of human's greed, aversion 
> and delusion.
>  
> Anthony
 
> Anthony,
> 
> That's the way human nature has evolved.
> 
> --ED

 
> > ED,
> >
> > You are saying (almost): everybody is a hypocrite. Is that the way the
> > world is?
> >
> > anthony

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Ed

Well, I am at lost in what you mind

I understand that they are westerners, as we are, even being indo-european.. 
(so, roots in east).
But all that is dualisticand not zen (or at least, deceiving)  :-)

With best wishes

Lluís
  - Original Message - 
  From: ED 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 7:56 PM
  Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas






  "Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is 
typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and 
inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, 
depending on their roles in the sentence.

  Finnish is a member of the Baltic-Finnic subgroup of the Finno-Ugric group of 
languages which in turn is a member of the Uralic family of languages. The 
Baltic-Finnic subgroup also includes Estonian and other minority languages 
spoken around the Baltic Sea.

  The Finns are more genetically similar to their Indo-European speaking 
neighbors than to the speakers of the geographically close Finno-Ugric 
language, Sami. It has been argued that a native Finnic-speaking population 
therefore absorbed northward migrating Indo-European speakers who adopted the 
Finnic language, giving rise to the modern Finns."

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language



  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:
  >


  Hi, Bill

  I beg to differ in two non zen questions
  -Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
   The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in 
english.

  -finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the 
relationship within family.

  With best wishes

  Lluís



Anthony,

I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: `Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by
saying: `Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf






  

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Bill

I beg to differ in two non zen questions
-Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied.
 The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in 
english.

-finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the 
relationship within family.

With best wishes

Lluís


  - Original Message - 
  From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 8:09 AM
  Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



  Anthony,

  I know Thai's drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
  thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

  For example, I could ask you: 'Are you hungry?', or I could just ask by
  saying: 'Hungry?' (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being
  casual in your speech.

  I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For
  example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
  there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
  identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English
  there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I
  think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
  more importance on personal relationships than time.

  ...Bill!

  From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I
thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy.

For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask by
saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone).  That's just laziness, or being
casual in your speech.

I do think language does reveal the different values of culture.  For
example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas
there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically
identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed.  In English
there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns.  This I
think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put
more importance on personal relationships than time.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 9:53 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

 
The Geography of Thought: How Culture Colors the Way the Mind ...
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>  
> That is not the way it is. It is too complicated to explain, but the
oriental way is different from occidental. The former is synthetic, while
the latter analytical. So you need subjects, objects, predicates, adverbials
and other nonsense to try to complete your analysis. In other words, the
westerners are more discriminating (in general).
>  
> Anthony
 
> Anthony,
> I think the reason is that Zen Masters use the Tantric principle that one
should behave in ways as if one already possesses that which one aspires to
attain; in this case, to possess a non-dualistic mind that does not
discriminate between subject and object.
> --ED
> > ED,
> > 
> > Many oriental sentences are without subjects or objects. Bill is
completely adjusted to Thailand, and the zen way. They are very grammatical
here.
> > 
> > Anthony
 
> > Bill,
> > Nice succinct answer. 
> > And, question:  Your zen-like statement in ungrammatical, without
subject or object. Is this a zen tradition of speaking, with a view to
 training the mind out of its customary dualistic mode of experiencing
reality?
> > Thank you, ED
 
> > Mayka and Ed,
> > 
> > Or perhaps Bill! would say: 'No effort, no judgment, no grasping, no
> > pushing-away, no concepts - Just THIS!
> > 
> > ...Bill!



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

I only have a low opinion of the Dalai Lama, not the Tibetans as a people.
In my opinion Tibetan Buddhism is not actually Buddhism, it is Lamaism in
some after-the-fact Buddhist wrappings.

All of these opinions are based on reading and are based on logic, not
direct experience.

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 9:46 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Boll,
You *appear* to have an aversion to Tibetans, Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai
Lama.
If you should choose to do so, I would like to hear whether you believe that
the aversion is based on compassion, and/or facts and logic and/or emotional
reactivity, and/or your experiences. 
Thank you, ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
Anthony,

I am definitely underwhelmed at the sayings of the Dalai Lama.

He's supposed to be a big-time Buddhist leader and continues to encourage
his
countrymen to cling to their attachment to their culture and language. Most
of
his quotes sound like bumper-stickers seen on 1960-vintage cars.

Don't worry about being 10,000 miles behind him. That's not necessarily so.
It
all depends on which direction you're traveling.

...Bill!



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

Actually I was just commenting on the logic of the two statements in what I
thought would be a humorous way.

The real subject is more complicated than it first appears.

Generally I think all people feel more free to act naturally around people
they know or believe share the same values.  Around others they are more
guarded or play a role they think is appropriate.

This could apply to same/different gender; but could also apply to
same/different race, nationality, religion age-group, etc...

This is, in my opinion, because of their egos (self).  When self melts away
these differences are not perceived to be important.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 9:34 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Bill,
All questions will be anwered in the course of our dialog.
However, in your opinion, judgment, knowledge, belief, observation or
experience, is the first statement true or false or something else?
In your opinion, judgment, knowledge, belief, observation or experience, is
the fsecond statement true or false or omething else?
Thanks, ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Ed,
> 
> In your post below you made two statements:
> 1. "Men behave toward each other differently when women are around than
when
> no women are around."

> 2. "Women behave toward each other differently when men are around than
when
> no men are around."
> You could only have experienced one of these. Which is it?
> 
> ...Bill!
 
 



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

[BillSmart]

Ed,

You interpretation of 'zen stink' as being 'unpleasant to those who have not
reined in their aversions' has merit.

On the other it is a historical stylistic affectation in zen to compliment
others by saying things that appear to be negative and criticisms.  An
example would be calling someone's teaching style like a 'doting old
grandmother', which is a way of saying they are very gentle in their
teaching and perhaps don't require their students to work as independently
as other teacher.  'Zen stink' could just as well be interpreted as someone
who is so enthusiastic about their experience that their exuberance is a
little 'over-the-top'.

Either way I don't consider it a real criticism. It's just a colorfully
expressed observation.

...Bill! 

   
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 9:25 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  

Bill,
A stink by any name is still a stink, unpleasant to those who have not
reined in their aversions. OTOH, in some religious/spiritual traditions,
everything is God.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
Ed,

Since this is an e-forum I guess it would be more correctly called
e-stink...Bill!
 
 
 
Bill,
"Stage seven is the glow in which you are radiating yourself as truth. You
will feel totally in contact with yourself, and your presence will radiate
from you like a glow. This will continue until you have fully presented
yourself to others. The Zen people refer to this as "the Zen stink".  See:
http://www.godening.com/FAQ.htm
Surely not stage seven already?  ;-) ;-) ;-)
Aromatically and thornily yours,
--ED
 
> Mayka,
>
> Oh yes! And Ed has quite an aroma also. But those are just the things you
have to put up with if you're going to catch a baby tiger
¦Bill!



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5616 (20101112) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com 
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/