date:20180104

By charging during the day!  The #1 EV priority by the DOE is to promote
daytime charging-at-work.
Anyone who looks at the trends can see that Day is the new night as far as
low cost energy will be concerned.

And regarding the end game we wont get there then unless we halt the
growing CO2 emissions NOW.
Bob

<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >>  If everybody gets an EV, and everybody charges it at night,
> >> that's a lot of nighttime emissions.
> >
> > Not if those same people put up say 12 solar panels and produced into the
> > grid during the day what they need at night.
>
> What if *all* daytime power was supplied by solar?  How would those
> 12 panels you mention reduce daytime emissions?
>
> I'm talking about the endgame, not about conditions in 2017.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

2018-01-04 Thread Jan Steinman via EV

> From: "j...@k6ccc.org" 
> 
>> Can you provide some evidence that "it does not change the generation mix at 
>> all?"
> 
> Absolutely.  At least around here, the renewable sourced electricity goes 
> into the system regardless... this data [NO SOURCE CITED] is a few years old, 
> but I am not aware that it has changed.

Well, can’t argue with EVIDENCE like that, can you?

You need to learn the difference between facts and beliefs, and why it is not a 
good idea to present one as the other.

 If energy availability diminishes, systems must shrink, or slow down, or 
do both. -- David Holmgren 
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op  

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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

What has changed in the years since that data was valid is that Wind is now
cheaper than even wholesale coal or natual gas.
Stop hanging onto the past... solar and wind are here for those open to
change.  And it is cheaper.  Solar coming in at under 2 cents per kWh in
the last large solar array in South America.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 7:00 PM, jim--- via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

>
> Absolutely.  At least around here, the renewable sourced electricity goes
> into the system regardless.  It is not a controllable source (other than
> opening breakers - which does not happen).  And at the wholesale level, the
> utilities pay a very high price for that power.  Here is a very simplified
> hypothetical example.  If 90% of the non-renewable power costs $50 per
> MegaWattHour, 9% costs $60 per MWH and 1% costs $400 per MWH, the renewable
> gets paid at the $400 rate, and the electric utilities have no choice in
> the price of if they buy it - they are required to.  It matter absolutely
> none whether anyone pays a "green power" rate.  As several people pointed
> out, if more people pay for the "green" energy, it can have the political
> affect that I alluded to, but that his not likely to have any effect on
> someone deciding to build more green power.
>
> BTW, a note that this data is a few years old, but I am not aware that it
> has changed.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Jan Steinman via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 13:59
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Jan Steinman" <j...@ecoreality.org>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)
>
>
>
> > From: "j...@k6ccc.org" <j...@k6ccc.org>
> >
> > That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get
> "green" power. All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for
> something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.
>
> Are you so certain that is the case?
>
> In our case (at least) BC Hydro does not buy third-party wind power unless
> directed to do so. The Bullfrog Power customers cause BC Hydro to purchase
> Bullfrog's power, rather than supplying Bullfrog Power customers with BC
> Hydro power.
>
> At least, that’s what everyone from Bullfrog to BC Hydro to the BC Utility
> Commission tells us. Are they lying?
>
> BC Hydro *can* throttle its dams if it buys wind power. Are you saying
> they do not do so? If not, where does the extra power go? Is the voltage
> higher than it would be if wind power were not “on line?” Would the voltage
> drop if the wind power suddenly “went away?"
>
> Can you provide some evidence that “it does not change the generation mix
> at all?”
>
> de N7JDB
>
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. (Long distance DC lines) ...

Spend just 7 Billion or about what we spend for coffee and we couild send
solar power westward to serve the 2 hour Duck's back peak demand on every
solar day from California to Maine.  THen extend it another 1200 miles from
a floating off shore solararray in the pacific and capture the last two
hours of sun over the pacific to feed the sunset hours in California and
done.
Sounds crazy today... but entirely possible.  Bob

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 7:52 PM, Larry Gales via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Actually, a 1200 mile HVDC line looses only about 5% of the energy
> transmitted, so it is very efficient.  Now, these lines are expensive,
> about $2 million/per mile, or $1.4 billion for a 1200 mile line, and the
> longest one I know about is about 1500 miles in South America, so they
> can't really transmit electricity around the globe, but they can efficiency
> transmit to a large part of a major continent, so they can greatly reduce
> the amount of storage needed.
>
> Now batteries (either in EVs or after they have been removed from EVs for
> storage), can provide huge amounts of storage for a number of hours or a
> few days, but you need something else, e.g., stored H2 to store energy for
> weeks or months.
>
> )
>
> -Larry
>
> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 1:15 PM, jim--- via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > Michael Ross said (in part):
> > > The grid is a super storage medium. If we were more interconnected
> > worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all. You just
> > need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries
> can
> > take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the
> heck
> > out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately not practical.  Transmission line losses if nothing else
> > would rule it out.  There are other issues as well.
> >
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > -- next part --
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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Re: [EVDL] Returning x2: (ot): EVLN EV newswire status ...

As our sysop, David, said this thread is ot because I am not driving an EV at
this time (true). But hopefully (as he said) it will have detail useful for
those that are.

I appreciate all your opinions, and later I may want to take Willie up on
his generous offer (thank you) to have my vehicle be the 11th parked on his
property.

-
Willie wrote:
I agree with Cor that Bruce will likely encounter no trouble driving his
California registered car in Texas. At least as long as the car is legal in
California and likely long after the car is illegal in California.
-

And there lies the rub [
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Therein+lies+the+rub ]
(and perhaps more information to help clarify ...)

On 20171102, when I turned in to the CA dmv the owner's title (signed over
to me), vehicle paperwork, and paid my ($$$) dmv fees at a local CA dmv
office, the dmv rep said at the end of our business, I was now legal, paid
up in full, I should expect a title with my name on it in the postal mail in
a couple weeks, and with the large red paper they gave me to place on my
windshield, the NOV (expired) rear license-plate-sticker did not matter
(because the large red dmv paper gave me permission to drive on CA roads
until 20180101).

The TX vehicle registration rep said I need the title (I would not be legal
until I showed her the title in MY name).
She did said I could get three, 6 month extensions allowing me to drive the
vehicle on TX roads, but that was it (after those, no more).

So, while it seems like I am impatient, in a sense, I have a time-limit
gun-to-my head. My ability to drive on CA roads expires at the end of this
month. (Worse case) If as posted it may take year(s) for this to work its
way through the CA dmv for me to get the title ...
(meanwhile the vehicle parked at Willie's farm, has tall prairie grass
growing around it, rusting with a hard to replace dead battery (a huge strut
is in the way), is sitting, sitting, sitting there, adding to the nesting
sites of field mice.

In that scenario, even when I did get the title, about all I could do with
the vehicle is have it towed away for scrap (which is what I plan to do when
I go to CA).

It as been two months since the dmv rep gave me her blessing. So, I have a
vote of no-confidence in the CA dmv, I believe that they are inept, and that
I will likely never receive the title. So, yes I am (ticking-expiration
date) anxious to get out from under this situation before I am not legally
allowed to drive the vehicle on the road of any state.

(tasks)
Pacing the amount of physical exercise so as to not stress my CHF heart
condition, today was my second day emptying out the vehicle, placing my
stuff in storage (task accomplished, I immediately went back to where I am
staying and took a nap to recover).

BTW, while I was signing my life away to pay for arranging to have that
storage space, their rep came from SoCal (Temecula , the Inland Empire is
near to Los Angeles, CA area) said, 'that is odd, I did not have any
problems transferring to TX' (like what Willie said). Further discussion
revealed that her company had a dept. to make the transition transparent.
That explains a lot. I know about those 'company travel dept's'. It is their
job to know all the ins and outs to make it easy on company employees (I
used similar travel dept's when I was a hp CE for 25 years).

But doing a transition on your own (despite all the research homework I
thought I had done), you run into requirements that impede, and slow that
transition process down to maybe not happening if you do not resolve those
issues ... (life can be tough).

(Itinerary)
For the next four days before I leave TX for another week+ trek back to CA,
I will be familiarizing myself with the used car dealers in this TX local
area. My choice of vehicle type may be different this time. In this part of
TX, the pick-up truck is king. My current needs are simple. I likely won't
be driving more th 7 mils per week to buy groceries (same as before). Plus I
hope to make the annual 2hour each way trek south to San Antonio's NDEW
EVent.

For my future needs, the VA may be providing me with a e-mobility cart (my
hips are wearing out). So, the used TX inspected and registered vehicle I
buy will need to be able to transport/carry one of those pEVs. A truck, or
van would likely be what I should get to be ready for that future need, see:

https://www.universal-accessibility.com/cache/124716233/resources/product/339/picture.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qYPgzBZLaSM/hqdefault.jpg

https://www.mobilityworks.com/images_vans/ford_transitconnect.jpg

https://www.4-medical-supplies.com/cache/1463071386000https://www.4-medical-supplies.com/cache/1247164183000/resources/product/527/picture.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pQXsnpkY4Qs/maxresdefault.jpg

http://www.blvd.com/wheelchair-vans-dir/ocean/1488901441one.jpg

For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/archive/

{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from:

Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

2018-01-04 Thread Lee Hart via EV




Michael Ross said (in part):

The grid is a super storage medium. If we were more interconnected

worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all. You just
need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.


jim--- via EV wrote:

Unfortunately not practical.  Transmission line losses if nothing else would 
rule it out.  There are other issues as well.


It's hard to say. There are already some mighty long transmission lines, 
and their percentage losses are quite small.


--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

2018-01-04 Thread Larry Gales via EV

Actually, a 1200 mile HVDC line looses only about 5% of the energy
transmitted, so it is very efficient.  Now, these lines are expensive,
about $2 million/per mile, or $1.4 billion for a 1200 mile line, and the
longest one I know about is about 1500 miles in South America, so they
can't really transmit electricity around the globe, but they can efficiency
transmit to a large part of a major continent, so they can greatly reduce
the amount of storage needed.

Now batteries (either in EVs or after they have been removed from EVs for
storage), can provide huge amounts of storage for a number of hours or a
few days, but you need something else, e.g., stored H2 to store energy for
weeks or months.

)

-Larry

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 1:15 PM, jim--- via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

>
> Michael Ross said (in part):
> > The grid is a super storage medium. If we were more interconnected
> worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all. You just
> need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
> take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
> out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
>
>
> Unfortunately not practical.  Transmission line losses if nothing else
> would rule it out.  There are other issues as well.
>
>
> Jim
>
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>
>

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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. (Batteries HELP it)

2018-01-04 Thread Lee Hart via EV


Michael Ross via EV wrote:

The context of these comments it the idea that stored electric power in
batteries can take over from fossil fuel energy; and that the capability in
batteries is "there." I don't believe it.


Let's see... Wikipedia says the 2016 peak CA load was 46,232 Mw on July 
27 (and it's been going DOWN in each successive year). The California 
Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) established an energy storage target 
of 1,325 MWH by 2020 (2 years from now). That would support about 3% of 
the peak load for an hour. Presumably, that would be enough to cover the 
expected peaks/brownouts.



Therefore, *batteries are not "there."* Nor will they be there any time
soon.  *If you run the numbers,* instead of just wishing, it is unlikely
grid storage can be done at all with batteries alone.  It will require
other very significant storage tech.


Cleantechnia.com says there are about 250,000 EVs in CA as of 1/20/2017. 
If each had a 25kwh battery pack and P2G charger, they would provide 
6,250 MWH of storage. That's several times more than what CPUC is 
proposing. So it looks like enough battery capacity is already "there" 
on the streets. They just have to find a way to harvest it.



Even supplying cells for more than a million cars is not currently possible.


That does not sound quite right. First, let's just look at dumb old 
lead-acids: They are the most-used battery for EVs (since industrial EVs 
and golf carts exceed the number of on-road auto company EVs). There are 
already over a BILLION cars on the planet, and every one has a lead-acid 
battery. We add another 50 million cars per year, and every one of them 
adds another battery as well. When you add the lead-acid batteries 
produced for other applications, they are building over 100 million 
lead-acid batteries a year.


Manufacturers could easily produce 10% more per year. That's 10 million 
extra batteries, which could produce a million EVs with (say) ten golf 
cart battery-size packs each.


A similar situation exists if you want to use lithium cells. They are 
already being mass-produced for laptops, cellphones, and many other 
consumer gadgets. This market dwarfs the EV market! Last year, 3 billion 
cellphones, and 100 million laptops were sold. In excess of 50 
gigawatthours of lithium cells were produced for them. If we assume an 
EV needs 25 kilowatthours of battery, that's enough to make 2 million 
EVs right there. Factories already under construction are expected to 
double producion in just 2 years.


So lack of batteries is not going to hold back EVs. It's more likely 
that sales will be limited by consumer demand and the high prices the 
auto companies are charging.


--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Returning x2: (ot): EVLN EV newswire status ...

2018-01-04 Thread Willie via EV




On 01/04/2018 12:40 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Bruce,
Why all the haste to get a TX title while DMVs are notorious for taking
~6 weeks to even open their mail?
One of my (former) colleagues worked for our company in GA but then was



Just a thought to wait a little for this to get settled and proudly
drive your CA car till you are official owner.


I agree with Cor that Bruce will likely encounter no trouble driving his 
California registered car in Texas.  At least as long as the car is 
legal in California and likely long after the car is illegal in California.


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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)


Absolutely.  At least around here, the renewable sourced electricity goes into 
the system regardless.  It is not a controllable source (other than opening 
breakers - which does not happen).  And at the wholesale level, the utilities 
pay a very high price for that power.  Here is a very simplified hypothetical 
example.  If 90% of the non-renewable power costs $50 per MegaWattHour, 9% 
costs $60 per MWH and 1% costs $400 per MWH, the renewable gets paid at the 
$400 rate, and the electric utilities have no choice in the price of if they 
buy it - they are required to.  It matter absolutely none whether anyone pays a 
"green power" rate.  As several people pointed out, if more people pay for the 
"green" energy, it can have the political affect that I alluded to, but that 
his not likely to have any effect on someone deciding to build more green power.
 
BTW, a note that this data is a few years old, but I am not aware that it has 
changed.
 
Jim


-Original Message-
From: "Jan Steinman via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 13:59
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Jan Steinman" <j...@ecoreality.org>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)



> From: "j...@k6ccc.org" <j...@k6ccc.org>
> 
> That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get "green" 
> power. All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for something 
> that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.

Are you so certain that is the case?

In our case (at least) BC Hydro does not buy third-party wind power unless 
directed to do so. The Bullfrog Power customers cause BC Hydro to purchase 
Bullfrog's power, rather than supplying Bullfrog Power customers with BC Hydro 
power.

At least, that’s what everyone from Bullfrog to BC Hydro to the BC Utility 
Commission tells us. Are they lying?

BC Hydro *can* throttle its dams if it buys wind power. Are you saying they do 
not do so? If not, where does the extra power go? Is the voltage higher than it 
would be if wind power were not “on line?” Would the voltage drop if the wind 
power suddenly “went away?"

Can you provide some evidence that “it does not change the generation mix at 
all?”

de N7JDB

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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

The cost of fossil fuels has always had a hidden cost side that we have
been "stupid" to pay for, and continue to do so when buying the "cheaper"
fossil sourced fuels. Our health and the health of the planetary
environment are a terrible price.

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On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 4:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Jim,
> Looking at microeconomics it does not make sense indeed.
> However, anyone paying extra for green power sends a signal
> to the market that green power has higher value.
> They are voting with their money.
>
> The market, in return, installs more green power where it might
> not have been feasible against the "dirty" power rate, so the long term
> effect is that buying green power *does* change the picture.
>
> Luckily, renewable power costs are ever falling and dirty power is ever
> getting
> more expensive (with slight offsets, when regulations are cut and dirty
> plants
> can run longer at lower cost to produce more pollution a bit longer)
> but eventually all dirty power will price themselves out of a fair market
> simply because it cannot compete with ever cheaper renewable energy
> that does not have the running cost of constant supply of fuel, since it is
> provided for free.
> That is why the first switch to renewables was always at places where it
> was
> difficult or expensive to supply fuel (islands, mountain tops) and over the
> years you see the economy trickle down into mainstream power provider
> territory simply because of business sense.
>
> EVs might affect this slightly, due to the focus on all-electric power,
> so people tend to get a trigger that if they invest in an EV, they might
> just
> as well invest in PV for more reasons than just bragging rights.
> Consumers who buy EVs for "going green/coming clean" but can't install
> solar
> might be very motivated to pay a penny extra per kWh to motivate providers
> to install more renewables.
> It is what I am doing until I can install my own solar.
> Cor.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of jim--- via EV
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:08 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: j...@k6ccc.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)
>
>
> Bob said )in part):
> > The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV
> > owners
> charged from clean energy. A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all EV
> owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables from
> their grid, or would when it was offered.
>
> That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get
> "green" power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for
> something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.
> "Buying clean power" accomplishes nothing.  You are not getting any
> different power than if you weren't paying the extra, and it does not
> change the generation mix at all.  Maybe it makes people feel better, and
> it potentially helps to send a political message, but it accomplishes
> nothing.
>
>
>
>
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

You don't have to look very far to get a grip on the supply difficulties
that are here already. Tesla hasn't come close to their minuscule 500,000
vehicles a year goal and the existing market for battery materials is close
to tapped out.

Build up of mining capabilities will inevitably happen, but it will not be
fast and there are orders of magnitude more needed just to handle cells for
vehicles.

And we are saying that batteries for grid storage is "there?" Not a chance.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/
*breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/*
<https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/>

Cobalt is sourced only from the Congo. This supply chain is very tenuous.
Cost in this article is said to be $27,000/tonne.

The article did not tally the mass of cobalt in a Li ion cell. Musk is
most worried about Co supplies.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/01/*no-cobalt-no-tesla/*
<https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/01/no-cobalt-no-tesla/>

http://www.co27.com/cobalt/about/

<http://www.co27.com/cobalt/about/>
" <http://www.co27.com/cobalt/about/>The Tesla Model S uses a 95 kWh
battery pack which contains *14.9 kg of cobalt per vehicle.*"

"The global *cobalt market was in a supply deficit in 2016* for the first
time since 2009"

http://benchmarkminerals.com/
*elon-musk-our-lithium-ion-batteries-should-be-called-nickel-graphite/*
<http://benchmarkminerals.com/elon-musk-our-lithium-ion-batteries-should-be-called-nickel-graphite/>

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/29/electric-cars-battery-manufacturing-cobalt-mining

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 5:19 PM, Michael Ross <michael.e.r...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> You did not run any numbers. The mining implications are paramount.
>
> Recycled EV batteries won't make a dent.
>
>
--
Michael E. Ross
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent

2018-01-04 Thread ROBERT via EV

I do not see the advantage except having the capability to use one motor core 
for multiply HP motors.  Does anyone think GM is going to use different magnet 
lengths in the same motor?  Does this have some efficiency improvement?  Do you 
think they are going modify the controller to allow different magnet lengths in 
the same motor?  Anyone have any thoughts on this subject?



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 2:43 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent

Anyone who thinks General Motors isn’t serious about electric vehicle
leadership doesn’t have a clue.

Despite Silicon Valley’s derogatory ideology regarding conventional car
companies like General Motors, the dinosaur from Detroit has been at the
forefront of electrifying personal mobility. GM’s flirtation with electric
vehicles began in earnest back the early ’60s. It started with the
Electro-Vair and Electro-Maro programs in the ’60s, then came a
battery-powered Chevette in 1977, followed by production of the EV1 in the
late ’90s, before culminating with the Chevrolet Bolt, the industry’s first
long-range-yet-affordable-mainstream-electric-car.

But the company isn’t resting on its laurels, as Tesla Model 3 reviews begin
to hit the internet, GM is busy working on a new family of electric cars due
in 2021. While advancements in battery technology have long been heralded as
the key to consumer adoption, GM engineers haven’t forgotten that a motor is
still what propels a vehicle forward, electric or not.

Published on December 19, 2017, by the USPTO, GM has filed a patent for an
electric motor with multiple magnet lengths which could totally change how
the company thinks about manufacturing electric propulsion systems.

For example, the Chevrolet Bolt uses a permanent magnet brushless motor,
where a magnetic field is produced by the spinning magnet and rotor assembly
which then transfers to the stator core and interacts with flowing current
to create torque. Differing magnet lengths will change the torque output,
smaller magnets decrease torque, while longer ones increase torque,
proportionally.

What the company is proposing is a new “modular” lamination sheet which
would be capable of accepting multiple magnet lengths. Instead of being
forced to re-engineer the lamination stack each time a change in magnet
length is required, GM proposes a series of tabs within the apertures of the
lamination sheets which, when layered, can be assembled to delineate the
magnet slots.

Effectively, the tabs will allow the stacks to accept either short or long
magnets–the tab will support the shorter magnet halfway down the aperture or
get pushed out of the way upon inserting a longer magnet. GM claims there
will be at least a 25-percent difference in magnet lengths.

It’s helpful to think about GM’s work with modular lamination stacks almost
like powertrain sharing–take GM’s naturally-aspirated 6.2-liter small-block
V8, which is offered in LT1 and L86 guise. As the high-performance version,
the LT1 is equipped with a shorter intake runner for better high-rpm
breathing, different exhaust manifolds, and unique cam timing; while the
trucks make use of longer intake runners in order to fatten up the mid-range
torque curve.

What will be of interest moving forward is how GM plans to implement the
respective magnet lengths, will the smaller magnets be used for efficiency,
while the bigger ones left for high-performance or hauling? Possibly, but
there are also drawbacks to simply increasing magnet size; larger magnets
may create more torque, but they also force the coil to fight through more
resistance as the higher torque values lead to an increase in eddy and
hysteresis.
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

You did not run any numbers.  The mining implications are paramount.

Recycled EV batteries won't make a dent.

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On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:46 PM, paul dove via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> Use recycled EV batteries for grid storage
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 4, 2018, at 11:35 AM, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > I disagree on the batteries are "there."  I doubt we can store the
> "energy
> > of man" in batteries.  And currently we are no where near close to that.
> > It is too much, and we won't be able to use batteries for that kind of
> > massive storage.
> >
> > I think Musk estimated 250 Gigfactories just to do all EVs, let alone
> other
> > industrial and residential uses.
> >
> > The grid is a super storage medium.  If we were more interconnected
> > worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all.  You just
> > need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries
> can
> > take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the
> heck
> > out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the
> famous
> >>  ... SNIP
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> > ...
> >>
> >> "
> >> The batteries in EV's are there.
> >> "
> >>
> >>  ...
> >>
> >>
> >> Bob, WB4APR
> >>
> >> --
> > Michael E. Ross
> > (919) 585-6737 Land
> > (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
> > Google Phone and Text
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email;
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> > Virus-free.
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> group/NEDRA)
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

2018-01-04 Thread paul dove via EV

You are also leaving out the energy necessary to refine the gasoline. An 
electric car can go 20 miles on the energy it take to make gasoline 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Ken Olum via EV  wrote:
> 
>   From: Robert Bruninga 
>   Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:52:46 -0500
> 
>   if one generates say 10MWhrs per year of solar and use 10MWhars per
>   year of electricity, then 100% of  your energy is completely fossil
>   fuel free.
> 
> I agree that you are entitled to brag that you used no fossil fuels in
> this case.  But now suppose that you trade your electric car for a gas
> car.  You pollute.  But you also use, say, 1 MWh less of the energy that
> you generate.  It goes out to the grid instead.  Fossil fuel plants
> don't need to run to generate it.  They pollute less.  This partly
> compensates for the additional pollution that you generate with your
> gas car.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is that if you are comparing electric car
> vs. gas car, you should compare the pollution generated by the car with
> the pollution generated by producing the electricity, even if you
> yourself have solar panels.
> 
> The only way that you should compare the pollution of the gas car
> against zero for the electric car is if the comparison is (gas car) vs.
> (electric car and new solar panels to charge it).  For example this is
> the right comparison if you size your PV system to your needs including
> your cars.
> 
>Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

2018-01-04 Thread Dan Kegel via EV

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV
 wrote:
>>  If everybody gets an EV, and everybody charges it at night,
>> that's a lot of nighttime emissions.
>
> Not if those same people put up say 12 solar panels and produced into the
> grid during the day what they need at night.

What if *all* daytime power was supplied by solar?  How would those
12 panels you mention reduce daytime emissions?

I'm talking about the endgame, not about conditions in 2017.
- Dan
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

> Solar alone doesn't fully mitigate the emissions of EVs
> unless you charge the EV when the sun is shining.

A common misunderstanding of net metering.  It doesn't matter when the
solar owner charges, as long as he has produced enough solar banked into
the grid to meet that load later on.  The solar panels over produce say 16
kWh during the day which probably goes as far as a few neighbor houses and
replacing their dirty grid power.  So the solar owner has reduced 16kWh of
carbon.

When she charges at night, she draws 16 kWh of carbon electricity from the
grid for a NET of zero carbon for her car.  Thus, she has fully charged on
100% clean sun power, since her arrays produced 16kWh of clean power and
she used 16kWh for her EV.

>  If everybody gets an EV, and everybody charges it at night,
> that's a lot of nighttime emissions.

Not if those same people put up say 12 solar panels and produced into the
grid during the day what they need at night.

> If you charge at night, and [cant put up solar panels],
> consider signing up for green power...

Amen to that.

Just 12 solar panels can provide free 40 miles daily EV travel forever on
sunshine and that is the national average mileage.  Talk about energy
independence.!

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. (Batteries HELP it)

The context of these comments it the idea that stored electric power in
batteries can take over from fossil fuel energy; and that the capability in
batteries is "there." I don't believe it.

The construction at scale of batteries, and battery manufacturing
facilities is going to take a very long time.  For example, the mining
capacity for copper, cobalt, lithium, and so on DOES NOT EXIST to produce
the amount of Li-ion batteries.  The same can be said for any other
candidate materials.  Current capacity serves the current market. It can't
be any other way. If you want a bunch more, it will take a while; and when
demand outstrips supply cost goes way up.

Therefore, *batteries are not "there."*  Nor will they be there any time
soon.  *If you run the numbers,* instead of just wishing, it is unlikely
grid storage can be done at all with batteries alone.  It will require
other very significant storage tech. Even supplying cells for more than a
million cars is not currently possible. I happily own Tesla stock on the
thinking they have a leg up on supplying cells to the auto industry. But
there is no denying it:  the supply of batteries is meager.

Batteries are a fine solution for mobile applications, airliners, trucks,
cars, even boats. However, for enabling all renewable power on the grid,
batteries do not make sense.

It will take too many batteries.  Also they are not material efficient for
stationary applications - some other solutions are needed.

Pump storage is bad because there are limits to how much land we want to
flood.  Nuclear?  I don't like it though plenty of people do. I am hoping
in the long time frame that fusion gets worked out (then it may not be
necessary to have grid storage at all, though mobile storage might still be
useful). Lot of talk about compressed air, I tend not to believe that is
possible.  I think hydrogen could be useful.  Conversion efficiencies are
not good, but great big tanks underground are within the realm of
possibility. Some other chemical reaction might work, but I can't guess at
that.

BentMike

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:26 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> You are missing the point.
>
> The batteries WILL be there in every EV on the planet.  And with just
> something like 75% penetration, the amount of energy in those batteries is
> something like 5 times the TOTAL grid capacity of the entire USA (or
> something like that).
>
> Ignoring the potential of that amount of storage is pretty foolish.  I'm
> just saying that engineers and economists will eventually see the light and
> the marriage of solar power and all that ALREADY invested battery storage
> will merge in magical ways.   Such as charging with excess solar and
> driving
> more at night in those jobs that can easily accommodate the shift.   Such
> as
> EV mail and package delivery... Bob, WB4APR
>
>
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9
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

2018-01-04 Thread paul dove via EV

Use recycled EV batteries for grid storage 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2018, at 11:35 AM, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> I disagree on the batteries are "there."  I doubt we can store the "energy
> of man" in batteries.  And currently we are no where near close to that.
> It is too much, and we won't be able to use batteries for that kind of
> massive storage.
> 
> I think Musk estimated 250 Gigfactories just to do all EVs, let alone other
> industrial and residential uses.
> 
> The grid is a super storage medium.  If we were more interconnected
> worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all.  You just
> need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
> take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
> out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
>>  ... SNIP
>> 
>> 
>> 
> ...
>> 
>> "
>> The batteries in EV's are there.
>> "
>> 
>>  ...
>> 
>> 
>> Bob, WB4APR
>> 
>> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

There is a purpose to buying green power - to support a nascent industry in
the face of established production methods and producers (who don't want to
change).

If you have some money to spare, and you want the earth to be a cleaner
place, it may make sense to pay more for greener production of energy.

I pay taxes so people can go to the library, and to fuel up fire trucks.
The only difference I see is that contributing to green power is optional,
unless you think vastly better stewardship of the earth is necessary.

I have some money to spare for that.  And it actually has been a boon to
solar and wind.

I think it is stupid not to, if you want to go there.

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On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 4:07 PM, jim--- via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

>
> Bob said )in part):
> > The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV owners
> charged from clean energy. A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all
> EV owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables from
> their grid, or would when it was offered.
>
> That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get
> "green" power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for
> something that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.
> "Buying clean power" accomplishes nothing.  You are not getting any
> different power than if you weren't paying the extra, and it does not
> change the generation mix at all.  Maybe it makes people feel better, and
> it potentially helps to send a political message, but it accomplishes
> nothing.
>
>
>
>
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
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>
>

-- 
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(919) 585-6737 Land
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

2018-01-04 Thread paul dove via EV

It gets dark this time of year before 5 pm and they delivered packages to my 
house up to 9 PM during the holidays.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2018, at 10:11 AM, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> You are implying that shipping docks will be manned all night long in this
> scenario. Or that residential or postal workers will want to try to deliver
> in the dark. There are very real downsides to tripping around in the night,
> and 3rd shift work is bad for health.
> 
> When I was delivering furniture in the 80's I often chose to do the travel
> (as opposed to delivery) at night to avoid the danger and boredom of
> gridlock. But I would definitely not have enjoyed invading customers
> driveways and landscape at night.  I think residential night delivery is
> not a good idea.
> 
> Night delivery isn't a totally bad idea, but it might be hard to work out
> the logistics.
> 
> Over the road is already a nighttime operation for many.
> 
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail>
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> 
> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:50 AM, John Lussmyer via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>>> Mail at night!
>>> I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
>>> haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
>>> to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
>>> those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
>>> a great balance to the grid.
>> 
>> Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
>> You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during the
>> day when demand is hi.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/
>> projects/sensibleemail/
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>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

2018-01-04 Thread Jan Steinman via EV

> From: "j...@k6ccc.org" 
> 
> That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get "green" 
> power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for something 
> that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.

Are you so certain that is the case?

In our case (at least) BC Hydro does not buy third-party wind power unless 
directed to do so. The Bullfrog Power customers cause BC Hydro to purchase 
Bullfrog's power, rather than supplying Bullfrog Power customers with BC Hydro 
power.

At least, that’s what everyone from Bullfrog to BC Hydro to the BC Utility 
Commission tells us. Are they lying?

BC Hydro *can* throttle its dams if it buys wind power. Are you saying they do 
not do so? If not, where does the extra power go? Is the voltage higher than it 
would be if wind power were not “on line?” Would the voltage drop if the wind 
power suddenly “went away?"

Can you provide some evidence that “it does not change the generation mix at 
all?”

de N7JDB

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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

2018-01-04 Thread Dan Kegel via EV

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
 wrote:
> However, anyone paying extra for green power sends a signal
> to the market that green power has higher value.
> They are voting with their money.

That's exactly right.

There are two kinds of green power available these days:
1) offset-driven, e.g. arcadia power
2) utility-provided, e.g. ladwp

In either case, you're voting with your money.  Utility-provided
green power is more likely to actually reduce emissions IMHO,
but if enough people pick either, utilities and politicians will notice
the political support for clean power those customers represent.

> EVs might affect this slightly, due to the focus on all-electric power,
> so people tend to get a trigger that if they invest in an EV, they might just
> as well invest in PV for more reasons than just bragging rights.
> Consumers who buy EVs for "going green/coming clean" but can't install solar
> might be very motivated to pay a penny extra per kWh to motivate providers
> to install more renewables.
> It is what I am doing until I can install my own solar.

Solar alone doesn't fully mitigate the emissions of EVs unless you
charge the EV when the sun is shining.  If everybody gets an EV,
and everybody charges it at night, that's a lot of nighttime emissions.
If you charge at night, and want to avoid (non-net-)emissions, consider signing
up for green power or installing storage.

Me, I went with rooftop solar, LADWP green power, and nighttime charging.
- Dan
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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20180104

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-GM-s-Multiple-Magnet-Length-Electric-Motor-Patent-tp4689138.html
EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent
... which could totally change how the company thinks about manufacturing
electric propulsion systems ... Differing magnet lengths will change the
torque output, smaller magnets decrease torque, while longer ones increase
torque, proportionally ...

+
http://wardsauto.com/engines/morgan-enlists-help-sporty-electric-vehicle
Morgan Enlists Help With Sporty Electric Vehicle
Dec 28, 2017 Morgan announces a technical partnership with Frazer-Nash
Energy Systems to help with production of its all-electric retro-styled
3-wheeled sports car. The Morgan EV3 is slated for production in 2018 and
management is hoping the partnership will give the car improved performance
with rapid charging technology, proven ...

https://www.motor1.com/news/225676/dyson-production-model-rendering/
2020 Dyson Production Model Imagined As Electric Sports Car
Dec 29, 2017 - The EV will use solid state batteries. It's not a secret that
vacuum maker Dyson plans to launch a fully electric vehicle on the market
before the end of the decade ... Sir James Dyson ... will invest no less
than £2 billion (almost $2.7B) into the ...
https://icdn-3.motor1.com/images/mgl/3xWWx/s4/dyson-electric-vehicle-rendering.jpg

For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/archive/

{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
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[EVDL] EVLN: GM's Multiple-Magnet-Length Electric-Motor Patent



http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2018/01/gm-patents-an-electric-motor-with-multiple-magnet-lengths.html
GM Patents an Electric Motor With Multiple Magnet Lengths
Jan 04, 2018  Michael Accardi

[images  
http://www.autoguide.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/chevrolet-bolt-powertrain.jpg

http://www.autoguide.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/magnet-length-tabs-679x445.png
magnet length tabs

http://www.autoguide.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/magnets-2.png

http://www.autoguide.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/magnets-3.png
magnets
]

Anyone who thinks General Motors isn’t serious about electric vehicle
leadership doesn’t have a clue.

Despite Silicon Valley’s derogatory ideology regarding conventional car
companies like General Motors, the dinosaur from Detroit has been at the
forefront of electrifying personal mobility. GM’s flirtation with electric
vehicles began in earnest back the early ’60s. It started with the
Electro-Vair and Electro-Maro programs in the ’60s, then came a
battery-powered Chevette in 1977, followed by production of the EV1 in the
late ’90s, before culminating with the Chevrolet Bolt, the industry’s first
long-range-yet-affordable-mainstream-electric-car.

But the company isn’t resting on its laurels, as Tesla Model 3 reviews begin
to hit the internet, GM is busy working on a new family of electric cars due
in 2021. While advancements in battery technology have long been heralded as
the key to consumer adoption, GM engineers haven’t forgotten that a motor is
still what propels a vehicle forward, electric or not.

Published on December 19, 2017, by the USPTO, GM has filed a patent for an
electric motor with multiple magnet lengths which could totally change how
the company thinks about manufacturing electric propulsion systems.

For example, the Chevrolet Bolt uses a permanent magnet brushless motor,
where a magnetic field is produced by the spinning magnet and rotor assembly
which then transfers to the stator core and interacts with flowing current
to create torque. Differing magnet lengths will change the torque output,
smaller magnets decrease torque, while longer ones increase torque,
proportionally.

What the company is proposing is a new “modular” lamination sheet which
would be capable of accepting multiple magnet lengths. Instead of being
forced to re-engineer the lamination stack each time a change in magnet
length is required, GM proposes a series of tabs within the apertures of the
lamination sheets which, when layered, can be assembled to delineate the
magnet slots.

Effectively, the tabs will allow the stacks to accept either short or long
magnets–the tab will support the shorter magnet halfway down the aperture or
get pushed out of the way upon inserting a longer magnet. GM claims there
will be at least a 25-percent difference in magnet lengths.

It’s helpful to think about GM’s work with modular lamination stacks almost
like powertrain sharing–take GM’s naturally-aspirated 6.2-liter small-block
V8, which is offered in LT1 and L86 guise. As the high-performance version,
the LT1 is equipped with a shorter intake runner for better high-rpm
breathing, different exhaust manifolds, and unique cam timing; while the
trucks make use of longer intake runners in order to fatten up the mid-range
torque curve.

What will be of interest moving forward is how GM plans to implement the
respective magnet lengths, will the smaller magnets be used for efficiency,
while the bigger ones left for high-performance or hauling? Possibly, but
there are also drawbacks to simply increasing magnet size; larger magnets
may create more torque, but they also force the coil to fight through more
resistance as the higher torque values lead to an increase in eddy and
hysteresis.
[© 2018 VerticalScope]
...
http://www.gminsidenews.com/articles/gm-patents-an-electric-motor-with-multiple-magnet-lengths/
GM Patents an Electric Motor With Multiple Magnet Lengths
January 3, 2018


+
http://wardsauto.com/engines/morgan-enlists-help-sporty-electric-vehicle
Morgan Enlists Help With Sporty Electric Vehicle
Dec 28, 2017  Morgan announces a technical partnership with Frazer-Nash
Energy Systems to help with production of its all-electric retro-styled
3-wheeled sports car. The Morgan EV3 is slated for production in 2018 and
management is hoping the partnership will give the car improved performance
with rapid charging technology, proven ...

https://www.motor1.com/news/225676/dyson-production-model-rendering/
2020 Dyson Production Model Imagined As Electric Sports Car
Dec 29, 2017 - The EV will use solid state batteries. It's not a secret that
vacuum maker Dyson plans to launch a fully electric vehicle on the market
before the end of the decade ... Sir James Dyson ... will invest no less
than £2 billion (almost $2.7B) into the ...
https://icdn-3.motor1.com/images/mgl/3xWWx/s4/dyson-electric-vehicle-rendering.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/

Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

Jim,
Looking at microeconomics it does not make sense indeed.
However, anyone paying extra for green power sends a signal
to the market that green power has higher value.
They are voting with their money.

The market, in return, installs more green power where it might
not have been feasible against the "dirty" power rate, so the long term
effect is that buying green power *does* change the picture.

Luckily, renewable power costs are ever falling and dirty power is ever getting
more expensive (with slight offsets, when regulations are cut and dirty plants
can run longer at lower cost to produce more pollution a bit longer)
but eventually all dirty power will price themselves out of a fair market
simply because it cannot compete with ever cheaper renewable energy
that does not have the running cost of constant supply of fuel, since it is
provided for free.
That is why the first switch to renewables was always at places where it was
difficult or expensive to supply fuel (islands, mountain tops) and over the
years you see the economy trickle down into mainstream power provider
territory simply because of business sense.

EVs might affect this slightly, due to the focus on all-electric power,
so people tend to get a trigger that if they invest in an EV, they might just
as well invest in PV for more reasons than just bragging rights.
Consumers who buy EVs for "going green/coming clean" but can't install solar
might be very motivated to pay a penny extra per kWh to motivate providers
to install more renewables.
It is what I am doing until I can install my own solar.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of jim--- via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:08 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: j...@k6ccc.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)


Bob said )in part):
> The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV 
> owners
charged from clean energy. A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all EV 
owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables from their 
grid, or would when it was offered.
 
That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get "green" 
power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for something 
that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.  "Buying clean 
power" accomplishes nothing.  You are not getting any different power than if 
you weren't paying the extra, and it does not change the generation mix at all. 
 Maybe it makes people feel better, and it potentially helps to send a 
political message, but it accomplishes nothing.
 
 
 
 
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

2018-01-04 Thread Peri Hartman via EV


Jim,

Can you explain what you mean by "pay extra for something that would 
have been there..."?


From the way I see it, a REC allows you to pay a "green" producer a 
slight premium for power. That is, if you didn't use REC to buy it, it 
probably would have sold at a lower rate. With RECs, you are increasing, 
albeit slightly, the demand for this green power. That provides an 
incremental incentive to build-out more solar or wind farms.


Or, conversely, it reduces the demand for power from, say, a coal plant. 
If enough power ultimately is purchased from solar or wind farms, that 
would mean the price to buy kwh from a coal plant drops and at some 
point the coal plant becomes unprofitable to operate.


Evidentially you see this differently?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "jim--- via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: "j...@k6ccc.org" <j...@k6ccc.org>
Sent: 04-Jan-18 1:07:33 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)



Bob said )in part):
The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV 
owners

charged from clean energy. A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all
EV owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables 
from

their grid, or would when it was offered.

That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get 
"green" power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra 
for something that would have been there whether they paid for it or 
not.  "Buying clean power" accomplishes nothing.  You are not getting 
any different power than if you weren't paying the extra, and it does 
not change the generation mix at all.  Maybe it makes people feel 
better, and it potentially helps to send a political message, but it 
accomplishes nothing.





73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...


Michael Ross said (in part):
> The grid is a super storage medium. If we were more interconnected
worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all. You just
need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
 
 
Unfortunately not practical.  Transmission line losses if nothing else would 
rule it out.  There are other issues as well.
 
 
Jim
 
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)


Bob said )in part):
> The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV owners
charged from clean energy. A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all
EV owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables from
their grid, or would when it was offered.
 
That is such a crock - I'm talking about people paying extra to get "green" 
power.  All that means is people are stupid enough to pay extra for something 
that would have been there whether they paid for it or not.  "Buying clean 
power" accomplishes nothing.  You are not getting any different power than if 
you weren't paying the extra, and it does not change the generation mix at all. 
 Maybe it makes people feel better, and it potentially helps to send a 
political message, but it accomplishes nothing.
 
 
 
 
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. (Batteries HELP it)

You are missing the point.

The batteries WILL be there in every EV on the planet.  And with just
something like 75% penetration, the amount of energy in those batteries is
something like 5 times the TOTAL grid capacity of the entire USA (or
something like that).

Ignoring the potential of that amount of storage is pretty foolish.  I'm
just saying that engineers and economists will eventually see the light and
the marriage of solar power and all that ALREADY invested battery storage
will merge in magical ways.   Such as charging with excess solar and driving
more at night in those jobs that can easily accommodate the shift.   Such as
EV mail and package delivery... Bob, WB4APR

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 12:35 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: Michael Ross <michael.e.r...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid.
Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

I disagree on the batteries are "there."  I doubt we can store the "energy
of man" in batteries.  And currently we are no where near close to that.
It is too much, and we won't be able to use batteries for that kind of
massive storage.

I think Musk estimated 250 Gigfactories just to do all EVs, let alone other
industrial and residential uses.

The grid is a super storage medium.  If we were more interconnected
worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all.  You just
need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the
> famous  ... SNIP>
>
>
...
>
> ">
> The batteries in EV's are there.
> ">
>  ...
>
>
> Bob, WB4APR
>
> --
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
Google Phone and Text

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Virus-free.
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. (Ducks back)

>> Duck's back curve that is developing in California.
>> in spring/fall does go negative in the middle of the day:
 [
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is-
](
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is-
) real-and-bigger-than-expected#gs.4kJv=1w

> March yes, but not in the summer...
> Not for a very long time anyway...
> we're a long ways from carrying the AC load with solar.

My concern is  your implication of "a very long time" till that happens.
I think you will be surprised.  Notice that the total grid demand during
the day has dropped by 33% just in the 4 years from 2012 to 2016 and the
rate of solar adoption is growing exponentially.

To me, that is *not* a "very long time"..  For my 70 years, time passes
very fast.  Just in the last 5 years, I cannot believe I have lived long
enough to see the cost of solar to be 1% of what it was in my college days
and now HALF the cost from the utility and the cost of the average EV now
cheaper by almost $7000 than the average gas car...

Yet people still cling to the old beliefs "EVs are too expensive" and
Solar is the future.  No, we are ten years into that future, and it is
here now.  And the trend is obvious...  DAY will become the new night as
far as cheap power is concerned.

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

The California Survey back in 2012 or so showed that 45% of all EV owners
charged from clean energy.  A 2016 Survey by Ford showed that 85% of all
EV owners charged from clean solar or subscribed for 100% renewables from
their grid, or would when it was offered.

To clarify, I'm not talking about what my car does.  I am talking about
the AVERAGE EV then has more than HALF of them running on 100% clean
energy.  And of the half that run on the average grid mix (50% fossil
fuel) they are only using 1/3rd the actual energy as a gas car, then 50% *
50% * 33%  equals about 8% which one can firmly say is the percent of
fossil fuel ON AVERAGE being used by all EV's.

Not the "mostly run on coal" argument  you hear so often.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Cor van de Water 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

Ken
That is exactly why many residences decide to get solar, to counter the
(steep) increase in electric usage
and while they are at it, they often cover the house load as well, so
using your (slightly flawed) argument, I could say that EVs can cause
*less* pollution when many new EV'ers decide to get solar.

It is easy go get into very hairy consequences if the premise includes
unrelated things...
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 9:37 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Ken Olum
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

   From: Robert Bruninga 
   Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:52:46 -0500

   if one generates say 10MWhrs per year of solar and use 10MWhars per
   year of electricity, then 100% of  your energy is completely fossil
   fuel free.

I agree that you are entitled to brag that you used no fossil fuels in
this case.  But now suppose that you trade your electric car for a gas
car.  You pollute.  But you also use, say, 1 MWh less of the energy that
you generate.  It goes out to the grid instead.  Fossil fuel plants don't
need to run to generate it.  They pollute less.  This partly compensates
for the additional pollution that you generate with your gas car.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are comparing electric car vs.
gas car, you should compare the pollution generated by the car with the
pollution generated by producing the electricity, even if you yourself
have solar panels.

The only way that you should compare the pollution of the gas car against
zero for the electric car is if the comparison is (gas car) vs.
(electric car and new solar panels to charge it).  For example this is the
right comparison if you size your PV system to your needs including your
cars.

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] Returning x2: (ot): EVLN EV newswire status ...

2018-01-04 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

This is somewhat off topic (especially since Bruce is licensing an ICEV), 
but it does pertain to people who move with their EVs.

It may be different today -- lots of government functionaries have become 
way more legalistic -- but I lived in another state for over 3 years back in 
the 1990s, and never re-titled or licensed any of my vehicles there.  When I 
had to renew the licenses, I just drove back to my "home" state (abouit an 8 
hour drive).  No one ever gave me any trouble, even when I got rear-ended 
and had to deal with police reports and insurance.  

Similarly, a friend of mine moved from another state to this one.  He lived 
here for the last 30+ years of his life (he died in 2009).  He never got a 
drivers' license here, nor did he ever transfer the titles or licenses to 
his cars.  No problems.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

I disagree on the batteries are "there."  I doubt we can store the "energy
of man" in batteries.  And currently we are no where near close to that.
It is too much, and we won't be able to use batteries for that kind of
massive storage.

I think Musk estimated 250 Gigfactories just to do all EVs, let alone other
industrial and residential uses.

The grid is a super storage medium.  If we were more interconnected
worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all.  You just
need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
>  ... SNIP
>
> 
>
...
>
> "
> The batteries in EV's are there.
> "
>
>  ...
>
>
> Bob, WB4APR
>
> --
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
Google Phone and Text

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Re: [EVDL] Returning x2: (ot): EVLN EV newswire status ...

Bruce,
Why all the haste to get a TX title while DMVs are notorious for taking
~6 weeks to even open their mail?
One of my (former) colleagues worked for our company in GA but then was
asked to come work at HQ
in CA, so he drove his GA car to CA and it was more than a year later
before he had his first comment that
he should move the title over to CA if he (continued) to work here.
He did have problems with unpaid tickets in GA, but never with his
driving a GA plated car in CA
for more than a year.
I presume that in 1 or 2 months, the CA DMV has finally worked though
their backlog and settled you as owner
of your car and then you should have no issue to get it moved to TX.

BTW, this may not be entirely legal as it is often required by (local)
law to get your title updated within weeks
when you move permently or start working in a new state, but how can you
even keep that law if the DMV
that you depend on to be able to register, does not process their
paperwork within a month or two?
Local enforcement also knows this problem and that is probably why there
is little enforcement that I know of
for immediately getting local plates. You do what you can, but you can
only do what others allow you if they
are the ones you depend on for the action you need to take.
Just a thought to wait a little for this to get settled and proudly
drive your CA car till you are official owner.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 1:11 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] Returning x2: (ot): EVLN EV newswire status ...


EVLN news status: the EV news items for a short while began again. But
slowed down today. Let's hope they pick up again. See below* as there
will be delays again in EVLN newswire posts ...


(ot) My status: stable (I have lodging) but I'm still not legal ...
Completed/achieved: a permanent address let me switch my car insurance
to state it is for TX (which is one of the requirements of getting a TX
driver's license).

I sent away for an official copy of my birth certificate, being sent to
a (UPS store) mailing address I bought.

A second call to CA dmv gave a different reason I still do not have what
I need to make TX vehicle registration dept. happy (TX registration &
licenses are separate groups/bldgs). So, CA dmv ('s screwups) has me in
limbo. 

The easiest approach is to let this (CA dmv messed up) vehicle go (find
a new owner for this vehicle and walk away from it. After so much ... it
seems like a shame, but I need to get on with my life and not be
delayed/jerked-around by CA dmv red tape). 
*This means in a few days, I will have to drive this vehicle (2000+mi)
back to CA to get this resolved.

I have had a lot of helpful information given to me by the friendly
local folk. An Uhaul rep that came from CA said, 'Yup CA dmv does screw
up so that is not so strange'. He had to get rid of a good car back in
CA by abandoning it (I am going to try to be as legal as possible). That
last dmv call said my name shows up as the pending owner as soon as a
special dmv dept checks.
Until then (legally) the guy I bought it from is still the owner (what a
limbo-land mess!).

Tomorrow, I hope to finish emptying out the vehicle of all my stuff into
local TX storage, and then spend some time looking around at used
(legal) TX vehicles to know what I will buy when I return. 

Once back in CA and before I lose the (albatrose) vehicle, I will see
about getting an official copy of my birth certificate, if it has not
arrived at the TX mail service. 
When vehicle-less, I will fly back, rent a car, then start looking for a
TX registered (legal) used vehicle, and get on with my life.

As you can read, I have a lot of chores to complete (it is not easy to
become a Texan). But I hope to have better wifi access luck with the
different motels I stay at on the way back, so I can still post/shoot a
few EVLN items out, while I continue to live out of a suitcase.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

Actually,
you'd want to store (renewable) energy when there is a surplus.
The market for grid storage is fast growing and I hear little about the
old tech of
rotating (flywheel) storage and adding pumped storage is not easy to
grow either
due to real estate, the only area that I hear massive investments in is
in battery.

Surprisingly, one of the ways to add storage and stabilize the grid is
by installing
a specific version of Fast Charger. While the Fast Charger is often
villified for its
potential to upset the grid due to high and unexpected loads, it can
also be installed
with battery storage that allows low installation cost due to requiring
only a moderately
amount of connected power with the battery averaging the load out over a
longer period
but at the same time allowing the battery to be used in demand load
control and possibly
even in power generation, depending how the electronics is set up.

This allows a Fast Charge station to be installed in a residence of a
(wealthy) individual
without need to change the service connection, a simple 240V 50A
connection can charge
a battery bank overnight if needed, or whenever it is cheaper or more
desirable to pull
electricity off the grid, in addition a (large) PV system can feed into
the bank, to give it
power when a grid failure occurs.
Charging from the bank can happen at any speed that the batteries and
the electronics
can sustain, 50 or even 100kW power is no problem, even while the grid
connection
peaks at 12kW.

BTW, this system already exists, EMW has developed it and when this gets
rolled out,
it is a great addition to the ever increasing grid storage.
Note: there is no reason the house could not be powered from this as
well, so essentially
it becomes a "PowerWall".
The vision that I have is that an affordable version of this system can
be offered with *used* 
EV batteries as the requirements for weight and size are much less in
stationary installations 
and this gives a good second hand market for used batteries from EV.

Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of John Lussmyer
via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 7:50 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid.
Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Mail at night!
>I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all 
>long haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the 
>benefit to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic 
>congestion).  All those battries storing energy all day long and then 
>being used at night as a great balance to the grid.

Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during
the day when demand is hi.


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Re: [EVDL] Returning x2: (ot): EVLN EV newswire status ...

2018-01-04 Thread Lee Hart via EV


On 01/04/2018 03:11 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

(ot) My status: stable (I have lodging) but I'm still not legal ...
A second call to CA dmv gave a different reason I still do not have
what I need to make TX vehicle registration dept. happy


Hi Bruce,

It's not just CA. I'm having much the same problem getting a car titled 
in MN that I bought in MA. 9 months and still counting! Each state 
points the finger at the other.


But, hang in there. You are in the right, so stick to it, and it will 
eventually get sorted out. You know what they say about government and 
excrement: "This too shall pass."


Meanwhile, best wishes in your new home. Wishing you a happy and healthy 
new year. And thanks for ALL your EVangel hard work and news postings!


--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

Ken
That is exactly why many residences decide to get solar, to counter the
(steep) increase in electric usage
and while they are at it, they often cover the house load as well, so
using your (slightly flawed) argument,
I could say that EVs can cause *less* pollution when many new EV'ers
decide to get solar.

It is easy go get into very hairy consequences if the premise includes
unrelated things...
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 9:37 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Ken Olum
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

   From: Robert Bruninga 
   Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:52:46 -0500
 
   if one generates say 10MWhrs per year of solar and use 10MWhars per
   year of electricity, then 100% of  your energy is completely fossil
   fuel free.

I agree that you are entitled to brag that you used no fossil fuels in
this case.  But now suppose that you trade your electric car for a gas
car.  You pollute.  But you also use, say, 1 MWh less of the energy that
you generate.  It goes out to the grid instead.  Fossil fuel plants
don't need to run to generate it.  They pollute less.  This partly
compensates for the additional pollution that you generate with your gas
car.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are comparing electric car
vs. gas car, you should compare the pollution generated by the car with
the pollution generated by producing the electricity, even if you
yourself have solar panels.

The only way that you should compare the pollution of the gas car
against zero for the electric car is if the comparison is (gas car) vs.
(electric car and new solar panels to charge it).  For example this is
the right comparison if you size your PV system to your needs including
your cars.

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

Bob Bruninga said (in part):
> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
Duck's back curve that is developing in California. Yes, today (in
winter), the curve still has the demand higher during the day than at
night. But that same curve during the spring and fall does go negative in
the middle of the day and that is the infamous "Duck's Back Curve" that
will only get worse:
[ https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is- ](
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is- )
real-and-bigger-than-expected#gs.4kJv=1w

March yes, but not in the summer - and only very late fall (we get our hottest
heat spells in September and October). Not for a very long time anyway.
Conveniently peak solar is at least sort of when peak air conditioning load is,
but we're a long ways from carrying the AC load with solar.
BTW, pull up satellite view on google Earth some time and take a look at how
much solar there is here in California - it's a LOT. Particularly in the
commercial sector. Look at almost any large retail store or mall, and solar
abounds. Not everywhere of course, but a lot and it's growing daily.

73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[ j...@k6ccc.org ]( mailto:j...@k6ccc.org )

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Re: [EVDL] Smearing with coal (again)

2018-01-04 Thread Ken Olum via EV

   From: Robert Bruninga 
   Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:52:46 -0500

   if one generates say 10MWhrs per year of solar and use 10MWhars per
   year of electricity, then 100% of  your energy is completely fossil
   fuel free.

I agree that you are entitled to brag that you used no fossil fuels in
this case.  But now suppose that you trade your electric car for a gas
car.  You pollute.  But you also use, say, 1 MWh less of the energy that
you generate.  It goes out to the grid instead.  Fossil fuel plants
don't need to run to generate it.  They pollute less.  This partly
compensates for the additional pollution that you generate with your
gas car.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are comparing electric car
vs. gas car, you should compare the pollution generated by the car with
the pollution generated by producing the electricity, even if you
yourself have solar panels.

The only way that you should compare the pollution of the gas car
against zero for the electric car is if the comparison is (gas car) vs.
(electric car and new solar panels to charge it).  For example this is
the right comparison if you size your PV system to your needs including
your cars.

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
Duck's back curve that is developing in California.  Yes, today (in
winter), the curve still has the demand higher during the day than at
night.  But that same curve during the spring and fall does go negative in
the middle of the day and that is the infamous "Duck's Back Curve" that
will only get worse:
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is-
real-and-bigger-than-expected#gs.4kJv=1w

For the typical march in 2016 in California, daytime load is 20% less than
the overnight load due to solar.  And it is only going to go down farther
as more people realize how solar is now cheaper than the utility in most
states... and it makes no sense not to invest in solar.  Meanwhile
electric costs at night will go up.

When electricity gets so cheap in the day, then we will see life style
changes simply as an economic result.  Such as charging EV's during the
day ... and there are two ways to do that.  1) Charging at work for
commuters, and 2) charging during the day and moving some driving to
night.  The batteries in EV's are there.  Economic advantages will take
advantage of them...

Bob, WB4APR


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of jim--- via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 11:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: j...@k6ccc.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid.
Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...


Bob Bruninga said (in part):
> With solar, day will become the new night, with the cheapest energy
available during the day. Already is in California.


Where are you getting that?  That is certainly not true.  Demand is still
highest during the day (or with the current weather that results in very
little air conditioning load, during dinner).  As soon as the weather
warms up, air conditioning load drives the electric consumption to the
highest loads (and therefore, prices).  Yes, solar offsets some of the air
conditioning load, but FAR from all of it.
This week, most of California is cold (by our standards), but clear.  That
means that the AC load is very small, but solar is doing pretty well (for
winter months).  Looking at yesterday's chart from the California
Independent System Operator (the people who manage bulk power statewide),
the largest difference between total demand and net demand (total minus
solar and wind) was about 10:25 AM.  That seems a little odd since that is
hours before normal peak solar hour.  The chart does not differentiate
between solar and wind.  There is a different chart that does break down
sources of renewable energy.  It confirms that the solar peak was about
10:25.  As I type this (08:25 AM) solar is producing 2,828 MW and wind is
86 MW.  This constitutes about 62% of renewable sources, and all renewable
sources constitute 18.5% of total demand.

If you want to see what it's doing, check out:   http://www.caiso.com

73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

Bob Bruninga said (in part):
> With solar, day will become the new night, with the cheapest energy
available during the day. Already is in California.

Where are you getting that? That is certainly not true. Demand is still
highest during the day (or with the current weather that results in very little
air conditioning load, during dinner). As soon as the weather warms up, air
conditioning load drives the electric consumption to the highest loads (and
therefore, prices). Yes, solar offsets some of the air conditioning load, but
FAR from all of it.
This week, most of California is cold (by our standards), but clear. That
means that the AC load is very small, but solar is doing pretty well (for
winter months). Looking at yesterday's chart from the California Independent
System Operator (the people who manage bulk power statewide), the largest
difference between total demand and net demand (total minus solar and wind) was
about 10:25 AM. That seems a little odd since that is hours before normal peak
solar hour. The chart does not differentiate between solar and wind. There is
a different chart that does break down sources of renewable energy. It
confirms that the solar peak was about 10:25. As I type this (08:25 AM) solar
is producing 2,828 MW and wind is 86 MW. This constitutes about 62% of
renewable sources, and all renewable sources constitute 18.5% of total demand.

If you want to see what it's doing, check out: http://www.caiso.com

73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org

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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

You are implying that shipping docks will be manned all night long in this
scenario. Or that residential or postal workers will want to try to deliver
in the dark. There are very real downsides to tripping around in the night,
and 3rd shift work is bad for health.

When I was delivering furniture in the 80's I often chose to do the travel
(as opposed to delivery) at night to avoid the danger and boredom of
gridlock. But I would definitely not have enjoyed invading customers
driveways and landscape at night.  I think residential night delivery is
not a good idea.

Night delivery isn't a totally bad idea, but it might be hard to work out
the logistics.

Over the road is already a nighttime operation for many.

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On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:50 AM, John Lussmyer via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >Mail at night!
> >I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
> >haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
> >to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
> >those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
> >a great balance to the grid.
>
> Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
> You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during the
> day when demand is hi.
>
>
> --
>
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> projects/sensibleemail/
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>
>

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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

2018-01-04 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

On 4 Jan 2018 at 7:50, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

> Actually, that is the reverse of what you want. You want to store
> during the night when demand is low, then use during the day when
> demand is hi. 

It's certainly the opposite of what we do now.

Robert seems to be suggesting that in the future we'll store energy when 
PRODUCTION (solar) is high (day), and use that energy when the production is 
zero (night). 

That assumes that PV becomes the dominant energy source for the postal 
service, at least.  I suppose it could happen, but honestly, I don't see it 
as very likely in the US.  From what I can tell, the USPS is not an 
especially forward-looking operation.  I'm surprised that they're even 
considering EVs for their new long-life vehicle design, and will be VERY 
surprised if they actually buy and keep using a significant number of them.

Solar-powered postal delivery seems more possible (though still not all that 
likely) somewhere in the EU, say France or Germany.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

2018-01-04 Thread John Lussmyer via EV

On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Mail at night!
>I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
>haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
>to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
>those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
>a great balance to the grid.

Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during the day 
when demand is hi.


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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

Mail at night!
I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
a great balance to the grid.

With solar, day will become the new night, with the cheapest energy
available during the day.  Already is in California.

Bob


-Original Message-
Subject: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid.
Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114558_no-electric-cars-still-arent-
crashing-the-grid-again
No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again.
Jan 3, 2018 ... Remember all those brownouts we experienced last week
because everyone plugged in their electric cars? No? Oh right, that didn't
happen. It still isn't happening. And it's unlikely to ever happen. That's
the conclusion of a study by the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC),
using infrastructure investment data from ...
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Re: [EVDL] Returning x2: (ot): EVLN EV newswire status ...

2018-01-04 Thread Willie via EV




On 01/04/2018 03:11 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


EVLN news status: the EV news items for a short while began again. But
slowed down today. Let's hope they pick up again. See below* as there will
be delays again in EVLN newswire posts ...


(ot) My status: stable (I have lodging) but I'm still not legal ...
Completed/achieved: a permanent address let me switch my car insurance to
state it is for TX (which is one of the requirements of getting a TX
driver's license).

I sent away for an official copy of my birth certificate, being sent to a
(UPS store) mailing address I bought.

A second call to CA dmv gave a different reason I still do not have what I
need to make TX vehicle registration dept. happy (TX registration & licenses
are separate groups/bldgs). So, CA dmv ('s screwups) has me in limbo.

The easiest approach is to let this (CA dmv messed up) vehicle go (find a
new owner for this vehicle and walk away from it. After so much ... it seems
like a shame, but I need to get on with my life and not be
delayed/jerked-around by CA dmv red tape).
*This means in a few days, I will have to drive this vehicle (2000+mi) back
to CA to get this resolved.

I have had a lot of helpful information given to me by the friendly local
folk. An Uhaul rep that came from CA said, 'Yup CA dmv does screw up so that
is not so strange'. He had to get rid of a good car back in CA by abandoning
it (I am going to try to be as legal as possible). That last dmv call said
my name shows up as the pending owner as soon as a special dmv dept checks.
Until then (legally) the guy I bought it from is still the owner (what a
limbo-land mess!).

Tomorrow, I hope to finish emptying out the vehicle of all my stuff into
local TX storage, and then spend some time looking around at used (legal) TX
vehicles to know what I will buy when I return.

Once back in CA and before I lose the (albatrose) vehicle, I will see about
getting an official copy of my birth certificate, if it has not arrived at
the TX mail service.
When vehicle-less, I will fly back, rent a car, then start looking for a TX
registered (legal) used vehicle, and get on with my life.

As you can read, I have a lot of chores to complete (it is not easy to
become a Texan). But I hope to have better wifi access luck with the
different motels I stay at on the way back, so I can still post/shoot a few
EVLN items out, while I continue to live out of a suitcase.


I'm astonished you are having so much trouble since it seems hundreds of 
Californians move to Texas each day (and probably vice versa).  I gather 
that the root of the problem is that you tried to import your newly 
purchased car before it's California ownership had completely "settled"?


I'm just returning from a short trip to southern California and have had 
my preconceived notions entirely reinforced.


I intended to comment earlier on your Texas inspection questions but 
didn't get around to it.  As you probably know by now, there is a one 
time import inspection that is very quick simple and easy; it just 
confirms that your vehicle matches your title.  Cost is low to nothing 
but not performed by common "safety" inspection stations (AFAIK).  Maybe 
one designated place per county.  The "Safety" inspection has to be 
performed annually (or maybe it is once every two years now) on each car 
registered in the state.  That includes emissions tests in the counties 
that require.  Probably not in Belton/Temple.


On your car disposal problem (if you decide you can not get clear 
California title while the car is in Texas):  Salvage yards are required 
to get titles with the junk cars but many will take title less vehicles. 
 They will pay if with title but not if without.  They MAY be willing 
to accept your California title.  A car is worth around $200 for "crush" 
value.


I have ~10 old dead cars sitting around; you are welcome to add yours to 
my collection.  While being stored, you can try to straighten out the 
title or you can work on parting it out.  Offer a "pull your own part" 
deal on CraigsList.


Depending on the value of the car, it may not be worth the pain of a 
road round trip to California to resolve a title problem.


A Texas used car dealer might be willing to buy the car and know how to 
deal with the title problem.  Of course that would reduce the value.  A 
used car dealer might be more willing to deal with it if you offered it 
as trade in.  The whole car might be sold on CL as a "parts" car.


There are Texas businesses that specialize in title solutions.  As I 
recall, I hired one to provide a "bonded" title on the Hyundai that came 
out of one of the Carolinas as a new car.  Right now, I can not be more 
specific.  As I recall, a couple of hundred dollars made that title 
problem go away and I now have a regular Texas title on it.  As I 
recall, the business I used catered mainly to used car dealers.


Good luck!  Let me know if I can help.


___

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

It is fair and well deserved criticism for the utility I am subject to. We
do not have many plug ins here (very little Tesla presence, and no fast
chargers I have seen). Most solar is utility scale -Duke has successfully
squelched residential solar so far. No third party sales are allowed.

They have incredible pull in the ridiculous legislature here. They pay
their CEO $12M a year. Our recently former governor was a longtime employee
of Duke, and is again consulting with them.

A characteristic of Duke is to resist allowing anything on the grid they do
not control fully.  Consequently, they do not want to invest in EV
supporting infrastructure.  I sat in on a panel discussion with the VP in
charge of renewable energy and listened to him paint residential solar
owners as evil doers. The state uitlilties commission panelist sounded very
circumspect and attentive to the utilities; not partial at all to promoting
anything Duke did not want..

In return for their controlling nature I pay little for s kWhr ($0.11),
there is a downward pressure on rates due to residential solar that does
benefit us all, but if you aren't somewhat moneyed you won't get much help
erecting residential solar.

So here in NC is it is not anything about the speed and change of tech
uptake, they are simply resisting it to the best of their ability. There
has been a lot of activism to promote a better grid here for more than a
decade - not much action though.  I know what I am talking about locally.

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Mark Abramowitz 
wrote:

> I'm no fan of the utilities, but that's not a fair criticism. The change
> and uptake of the technology was unexpected and quick, and could not have
> been predicted when the infrastructure was built.
>

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(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
Google Phone and Text

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[EVDL] Returning x2: (ot): EVLN EV newswire status ...


EVLN news status: the EV news items for a short while began again. But
slowed down today. Let's hope they pick up again. See below* as there will
be delays again in EVLN newswire posts ...


(ot) My status: stable (I have lodging) but I'm still not legal ...
Completed/achieved: a permanent address let me switch my car insurance to
state it is for TX (which is one of the requirements of getting a TX
driver's license).

I sent away for an official copy of my birth certificate, being sent to a
(UPS store) mailing address I bought.

A second call to CA dmv gave a different reason I still do not have what I
need to make TX vehicle registration dept. happy (TX registration & licenses
are separate groups/bldgs). So, CA dmv ('s screwups) has me in limbo. 

The easiest approach is to let this (CA dmv messed up) vehicle go (find a
new owner for this vehicle and walk away from it. After so much ... it seems
like a shame, but I need to get on with my life and not be
delayed/jerked-around by CA dmv red tape). 
*This means in a few days, I will have to drive this vehicle (2000+mi) back
to CA to get this resolved.

I have had a lot of helpful information given to me by the friendly local
folk. An Uhaul rep that came from CA said, 'Yup CA dmv does screw up so that
is not so strange'. He had to get rid of a good car back in CA by abandoning
it (I am going to try to be as legal as possible). That last dmv call said
my name shows up as the pending owner as soon as a special dmv dept checks.
Until then (legally) the guy I bought it from is still the owner (what a
limbo-land mess!).

Tomorrow, I hope to finish emptying out the vehicle of all my stuff into
local TX storage, and then spend some time looking around at used (legal) TX
vehicles to know what I will buy when I return. 

Once back in CA and before I lose the (albatrose) vehicle, I will see about
getting an official copy of my birth certificate, if it has not arrived at
the TX mail service. 
When vehicle-less, I will fly back, rent a car, then start looking for a TX
registered (legal) used vehicle, and get on with my life.

As you can read, I have a lot of chores to complete (it is not easy to
become a Texan). But I hope to have better wifi access luck with the
different motels I stay at on the way back, so I can still post/shoot a few
EVLN items out, while I continue to live out of a suitcase.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20180103



http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-97yrold-experiences-Tesla-S-EV-magic-v-tp4689112.html
EVLN: 97yrold experiences Tesla-S EV magic (v)
One Tesla Model S plus one 97-year-old grandfather: video magic
"I hear you got an electric car," says a 97-year-old man, looking every bit
like a 97-year-old man, suspenders and all. "Is it outside?" The man behind
the camera is Zev Gitalis, and the man in front of the camera is his
grandfather ...

+
https://hackaday.com/2017/12/25/how-much-of-a-battery-pack-does-your-electric-car-need/
How Much Of A Battery Pack Does Your Electric Car Need?
December 25, 2017  Elon Musk recently staged one of his characteristic
high-profile product launches, at which he unveiled a new Tesla electric
semi-truck. It was long on promise and short on battery pack weight figures,
so of course Real Engineering smelled a rat …

https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/passenger-vehicle/cars/two-seater-electric-car-rt90-will-have-a-battery-you-will-never-need-to-replace/62360671
Two-seater electric car RT90 will have a battery you will never need to
replace
January 04, 2018  NEW DELHI: Hriman Motors, a Delhi-headquartered startup,
is working on building a serious two-seater electric car with a battery that
will never need to be ... "Our goal is to build a safe, vehicle using the
best of the technologies available in the market today," said Captain
Youvraj Kapoor, Founder of Hriman Motors ...
https://etimg.etb2bimg.com/photo/62360674.cms




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] EVLN: 97yrold experiences Tesla-S EV magic (v)