Heraclitus gets his feet wet

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Heraclitus' point was that in this contingent world, nothing remains the same. As I understand it, the naturalist fallacy is to judge that something is good (in an ethical sense) because it is natural. Heraclitus makes no such judgment. I think H meant not the same river

Dualism as a cover-up solution to the mind-body problem

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg The dualisms will work as fictions as long as you don't take them too seriously. But keep in mind: IMHO all of those dualist positions are not logically valid. Instead, they are phoney attempts to get around the unresolveable issue that mind and body are completely

Re: Dualism as a cover-up solution to the mind-body problem

2012-11-05 Thread Richard Ruquist
Roger says that mind and body are completely contrary substances Richard replies what is dualism if not that? On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The dualisms will work as fictions as long as you don't take them too seriously. But keep

1p=now, 3p = then

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
ALSO, 1p --- now 3p -- then Hi Bruno Marchal 3-view is descriptive truth, 1-view truth is truth by acquaintance. Descriptive truth is similar to your knowing about Bertrand Russell. Or to know that in principle 1+1 =2. Truth by acquaintance is that you have met Bertrand Russell. Or you

The supreme monad is the only actor, the only agent

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Man's soul, being a monad, includes the physical man, as the physical man must remain associated to its monad. But man-and-his-monad is not an actor, it is a puppet of the supreme monad. So there is but one actor, the Supreme monad. Which is why we give thanks before a

why IMHO arithmetic is not a theory

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal IMHO arithmetic, unlike theory, does not make predictions in the real world, so it has not contingency about it, its truths are necessary, unchangeable. and always true. That disqualifies arithmetic as a theory, which is man-made (invented) and therefore contingent. Theories

Re: The supreme monad is the only actor, the only agent

2012-11-05 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 7:06 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Man's soul, being a monad, includes the physical man, as the physical man must remain associated to its monad. But man-and-his-monad is not an actor, it is a puppet of the supreme monad. You seem to be

Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal OK, you say propositions might have a contradiction but you might not yet have found the contradictions. That's a profound point. In other words, one can't ever be sure if a proposition is necessarily true, because, as Woody Allen says, forever is a long time. And the variety

Re: Re: The two types of truth

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Is sigma_6 truth truth with only a 6 sigma possibility of error ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list

Re: Re: (mathematical) solipsism

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Isn't strong AI just an assumption ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-04, 09:43:16

Re: Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen, I wouldn't be too hard on Russell, at least as far as logic goes. He had no way of knowing of Godel's proof. And Whitehead had joined him in the principia project. Certainly two of the brightest minds that ever lived. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a

Re: Dualism as a cover-up solution to the mind-body problem

2012-11-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, November 5, 2012 6:45:50 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The dualisms will work as fictions as long as you don't take them too seriously. But keep in mind: IMHO all of those dualist positions are not logically valid. Instead, they are phoney attempts to

Re: Re: Dualism as a cover-up solution to the mind-body problem

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg What they say about economists is also appropriate to say about philosophers: If all of the philosophers in the world were laid end to end, they'd never come to a conclusion. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end.

Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Hal Ruhl i) Is OK, except Cs isn't distributed, it's beyond spacetime, and so it's just there. ii) Is misleading, because an entity cannot move or do as it desires without some degree of free will. If no free will, they're robots. If so, then who designed those robots and controls them

Re: Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Science is based on and produces facts. I don't think you would want to call these facts opinions unless they referred to global warming. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the

Re: Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Do you know of any comp outputs that we could examine ? I myself worship data. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver:

Re: Re: Dualism as a cover-up solution to the mind-body problem

2012-11-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
I don't know that I'm a philosopher, but it seems to me that I have come to a conclusion. Craig On Monday, November 5, 2012 8:13:38 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg What they say about economists is also appropriate to say about philosophers: If all of the philosophers in

Re: Re: Why religious truth is the highest truth

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Depending on the existence of others is fine but incomplete. A flood does not depend on the existence of others, it's just contingent on too much rain. And not enough time passed by for the flood to drain down. Come back in a month and the flood's gone. So time is important,

Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 7:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal OK, you say propositions might have a contradiction but you might not yet have found the contradictions. That's a profound point. In other words, one can't ever be sure if a proposition is necessarily true, because, as Woody Allen says,

Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 7:58 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen, I wouldn't be too hard on Russell, at least as far as logic goes. He had no way of knowing of Godel's proof. And Whitehead had joined him in the principia project. Certainly two of the brightest minds that ever lived. Roger Clough,

Re: Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King A truth exists dependent only on the One, who creates all truth. But not on other minds: E=mc^2 before man arrived, from the very getgo (and before), and will remain after man. Truth is foreign to us. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time,

Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 8:50 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Science is based on and produces facts. I don't think you would want to call these facts opinions unless they referred to global warming. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end.

Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 8:53 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Do you know of any comp outputs that we could examine ? I myself worship data. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen Hi Roger, Ask Bruno. I think that he has

Re: Why religious truth is the highest truth

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 9:00 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Depending on the existence of others is fine but incomplete. A flood does not depend on the existence of others, it's just contingent on too much rain. And the in/ability of the boundary to contain the addition of water...

Re: Dualism as a cover-up solution to the mind-body problem

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 9:01 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: I don't know that I'm a philosopher, but it seems to me that I have come to a conclusion. Craig On Monday, November 5, 2012 8:13:38 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg What they say about economists is also appropriate to say

On objective and subjective forms of perceptions

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King No, the 3p view is what is there then, or there-then. Anything objective, such as some algorithm, could be spoke of as within the 3p. The 1p view is subjective (here, now or here-now). Thus the buddhists, yogis and mystics advise us to be here now. Buddhists I think call

Re: Re: Re: Dualism as a cover-up solution to the mind-body problem

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg I must be a philosopher then, for everything seems to be a work in progress, if not immediately then afterwards. But I am for the truth and sometimes, temporarily, seem to have found it. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the

Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King That might be what I think Bruno referred to as 6 sigma truth, namely truth that has a probability within std dev of 6 sigma of being true. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the

Nietzsche's ghost

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Hmmm. I suppose there might be a multiple persons understanding, but I am having enough problems right now with one person up against the horrors of Nietzsche's ghost. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody

Re: Re: Dualism as a cover-up solution to the mind-body problem

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King But the course of true love never did run smooth :-) Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time:

Re: Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb The dilemma is that 1p is subjective and hence solipsistic, but when spoken about it is objective (3p, 2p; he, or you). And as far as dualisms go, the only important one is subjective/objective. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: But you know in davance that whatever happen, you will live only one thing. John Clark knows with certainty that John Clark will see Washington, and John Clark knows with certainty that John Clark will see Moscow, and John Clark knows

Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 9:03 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Sirius was there before Paul was born. That position is called realism. Hi Roger, What makes you so sure? Realism assumes infallibility! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the

Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 9:08 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King A truth exists dependent only on the One, who creates all truth. That is acceptable only if we allow it to have an infinite regress. I like infinite regress but we cannot have pathological regress (such as free lunches and

Re: Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist Engineering advantages ? A decade before the Wright brothers flew their airplane, people would have said, You're going to do WHAT ? Many if not all innovations like that seem at present to be crazy or impossible. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is

Re: Re: Dualism as a cover-up solution to the mind-body problem

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist Indeed, dualism is -- has to be-- science fiction. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time:

Re: On objective and subjective forms of perceptions

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 9:22 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King No, the 3p view is what is there then, or there-then. Anything objective, such as some algorithm, could be spoke of as within the 3p. Dear ROger, 'Where' and 'when' are meaningless unless specified. This renders 3p empty

Re: Re: The supreme monad is the only actor, the only agent

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist There is not really any problem between free will and pre-determinism as long as the men did what they wanted to do. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content -

Re: Nietzsche's ghost

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 9:54 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Hmmm. I suppose there might be a multiple persons understanding, but I am having enough problems right now with one person up against the horrors of Nietzsche's ghost. Hi, It helps to recall that he died of some form of

Re: Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King 1) I don't understand your application of infinite regress to the One. The One is something like an intellectual white hole from which all comes, to invent a description. 2) As far as E = mc^2 goes, yes, theory can change, but the underlying phenomena do not. Roger

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 10:11 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb The dilemma is that 1p is subjective and hence solipsistic, but when spoken about it is objective (3p, 2p; he, or you). And as far as dualisms go, the only important one is subjective/objective. Hi Roger, Think of a 3p as a

Re: Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Infallibility isn't involved. The typical textbook explanation for realism is, if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, would it make a sound? A realist (such as me) would say yes. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long

Re: Re: Re: Dualism as a cover-up solution to the mind-body problem

2012-11-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
Can the work really be said to be progressing if no conclusions are ever found? I agree that there seems to always be newer and greater understandings to be discovered, but in between those moments of discovery there can be thousands of years of relatively fixed ideas. On Monday, November 5,

Can there be a private language ?

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King You could see it that way, but I only meant that 1p is subjective (as I see or know it (here,now)) while 3p is objective (as they see or know whatever, whenever). Which raises Wittgenstein's question, Can there be a private language ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net

Re: Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Good. That is another way to define objective (public). Whereas 1p is personal and always private. If 1p is communicated, it becomes 3p. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the

Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 10:31 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 1) I don't understand your application of infinite regress to the One. The One is something like an intellectual white hole from which all comes, to invent a description. Hi Roger, Let us think a bit about this. Does anything exist that could act

Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 10:35 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Infallibility isn't involved. The typical textbook explanation for realism is, if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, would it make a sound? A realist (such as me) would say yes. The logician in me would say

Re: Can there be a private language ?

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 10:40 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King You could see it that way, but I only meant that 1p is subjective (as I see or know it (here,now)) while 3p is objective (as they see or know whatever, whenever). Hi Roger, OK, but isn't the objectivity of 3p exactly what many

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 10:44 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Good. That is another way to define objective (public). Whereas 1p is personal and always private. If 1p is communicated, it becomes 3p. Hi, It is only 3p is that communication can be confirmed or 'witnessed' by a third

Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Nov 2012, at 17:55, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/4/2012 9:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Nov 2012, at 13:06, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/3/2012 6:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Dear Bruno, No, that cannot be the case since statements do not even exist if the framework or

Re: Can there be a private language ? typo!

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 11:18 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 10:40 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King You could see it that way, but I only meant that 1p is subjective (as I see or know it (here,now)) while 3p is objective (as they see or know whatever, whenever). Hi Roger, OK,

Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 11:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Bruno, I am using the possibility of a claim to make my argument, not any actual instance of a claim. There is a difference. In comp there are claims that such and such know or believe or bet. I am trying to widen our thinking of how the

Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 11:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: What is the possible value of a statement that we can make no claims about? We can make claim about them, but we don't need to do that for them being true or false. Who are the we that you refer to? The universal numbers, or better the

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Nov 2012, at 18:58, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:03 AM, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: As in the movie the Prestige, would you step into the duplicating machine knowing that one of your duplicates would survive and one would drown? Absolutely not!

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread meekerdb
On 11/5/2012 10:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Nov 2012, at 18:58, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:03 AM, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com mailto:stath...@gmail.com wrote: As in the movie the Prestige, would you step into the duplicating machine

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 11:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Look at AUDA where all pronouns, for each points of view, are defined mathematically. But most people does not need that to get this for understanding the first indeterminacy notion. Avoiding the use of pronouns there would conflate even more easily

Re: Re: The two types of truth

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King I believe that truth is independent of mind, but we poor beggars cannot be sure of how to state what that criterion is. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content

Debunking people's belief in free will takes the intention out of their movements

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
Hi, Let me throw something into the conversation. Craig may have linked this previously, but it needs closed inspection IMHO. Attention John Clark! Debunking people's belief in free will takes the intention out of their movements Undermining a person's belief in free will alters the

Re: The two types of truth

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 12:48 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I believe that truth is independent of mind, but we poor beggars cannot be sure of how to state what that criterion is. Hi Roger, If truth is independent of the mind, how is it that the mind can apprehend truth? -- Onward!

Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Plato in the end confessed that the best he could offer was a likely story. I see no reason to doubt his authority. Nor of the Bible, for that matter. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen -

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King I have no problem with that, although I do think that there are some eternal truths external to those minds. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King In the end, we must accept a truth, so in the end, all truth is pragmatic. We must cast our own vote. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen

Re: The two types of truth

2012-11-05 Thread meekerdb
On 11/5/2012 12:08 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 12:48 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I believe that truth is independent of mind, but we poor beggars cannot be sure of how to state what that criterion is. Hi Roger, If truth is independent of the mind, how is it

Mind is life

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King A mind is the medium through which a self with an unchanging identity or soul actively senses, thinks, knows, can choose, imagine, create, and perceive, subjectively, all on its own, to whatever extent that is possible. Thus mind is the same as life. And not the organs of

Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 1:14 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Plato in the end confessed that the best he could offer was a likely story. I see no reason to doubt his authority. Nor of the Bible, for that matter. Dear Roger, This tells me that you are OK with arguments from authority. This

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Again the same main 1-3 confusion. I see nothing I can be confused about because the only point of view I can see is my own first person one, what your second or his third person point of view may be is pure speculation on

Re: Emergence of Properties

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 1:17 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I have no problem with that, although I do think that there are some eternal truths external to those minds. Dear Roger, OK, but what allows those 'external truths to be knowable? Maybe they are unknowable and if so what

Re: Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Hmm, it's a fine point, but communicability implies symbols. I believe that there were numbers before there were symbols for them. There have to be symbols if they are used to think with, but IMHO they were there before that in order for creation to happen systematically,

Re: Emergence of Properties

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 1:19 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King In the end, we must accept a truth, so in the end, all truth is pragmatic. We must cast our own vote. Dear Roger, Are you familiar with Kenneth Arrow's impossibility theorem

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Nov 2012, at 04:07, meekerdb wrote: On 11/4/2012 11:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: No one has ever pretend it is paradoxical or contradictory about that. But with the definition of 1p, it shows that something is indeterminate. It shows that the referent of you is uncertain - yes.

Re: Debunking people's belief in free will takes the intention out of their movements

2012-11-05 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: The finding implies that free will is illusory. Free will is not illusionary. A illusion is a perfectly respectable subjective phenomena, but free will is not respectable, free will is just gibberish. John K Clark -- You

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Hmmm. Spacetime is xyzt and so extended, 1p is inextended and so not part of that. Thus, contrary to you and Berkeley, 1p and the physical universe do not need each other. xyzt does fine on its own. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time,

Re: Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb Love is a qualia and science cannot touch qualia. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 21:28:12

Re: The two types of truth

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 1:25 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 11/5/2012 12:08 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 12:48 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I believe that truth is independent of mind, but we poor beggars cannot be sure of how to state what that criterion is. Hi Roger, If truth is

Re: Mind is life

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 1:33 PM, Roger Clough wrote: A mind is the medium through which a self with an unchanging identity or soul actively senses, thinks, knows, can choose, imagine, create, and perceive, subjectively, all on its own, to whatever extent that is possible. Thus mind is the same as life.

Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality

2012-11-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 05.11.2012 16:21 Roger Clough said the following: Hi Richard Ruquist Engineering advantages ? A decade before the Wright brothers flew their airplane, people would have said, You're going to do WHAT ? I guess this is a very good example, as the Wright brothers have just done it. I am not

Re: Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Thanks for supporting the majesty of the One, but I think the One, like God, needs a theodicy. They both cause everything that happens, but for some reason, all of the results down here are not perfect (are contingent). I don't know why that happens, but I look all around

Re: Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King A tape recorder could prove your theory wrong. Berkeley finally gave in and said that realism was acceptable because God could see or hear it. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving

Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality

2012-11-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 04.11.2012 22:03 meekerdb said the following: On 11/4/2012 1:18 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 04.11.2012 00:47 Alberto G. Corona said the following: : Is there something that I could know to be the case, and which is not expressed by a proposition that could be part of some scientific

Re: Re: Can there be a private language ?

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Yes, I had forgotten about many 1p. And your dismissal of the possibility of a private language is exactly what Witgenstein concluded. Great minds must think alike. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody

On hearsay

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King No, they don't all have to had witnessed it, they can simply be told about it. In court that is called hearsay. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content -

Re: Re: The two types of truth

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King There you go again. That's the same question that einstein raised, but in a positive format. He wondered why and how the universe was so conducive to reason and methematics. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end.

Re: Re: Numbers in the Platonic Realm

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King I don't think there's a better standard of truth. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time:

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Simple. All truths can probably only be known by the One who it seems generated them (not sure). Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P.

Re: Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi I have heard it said that every year a certain mathematics society gets together to celebrate the fact that not one of their papers has proven to be useful. Pragmatists on the other hand believe that only the useful is true. Take your pick. Roger Clough,

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Thanks for the heads up. We ask that question every four years in the USA-- namely should the popular vote or should the votes from the individual states (the electoral vote) decide who becomes president ? In the first Bush election, Gore won the popular vote but Bush at

Re: Re: Mind is life

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King I overlooked the most important attribute IMHO of mind, that being intelligence. And indeed I may often seem to have a private language of terms, although I try to use them as straight-forwardly as I can. Those attributes to my mind are obtained but what mind enables us to

Politics as tribal warfare-- and life as tribal warfare

2012-11-05 Thread Roger Clough
Tribal warfare and the nature of man Politics is tribal warfare. It's ancient hatred between folks who don't even speak the same language. There's no remedy. Tribes have brought safety to man and so continue to this day. Tribes are anthropological. We join the various tribes unknowingly

Re: Emergence of Properties

2012-11-05 Thread meekerdb
On 11/5/2012 12:51 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 1:19 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King In the end, we must accept a truth, so in the end, all truth is pragmatic. We must cast our own vote. Dear Roger, Are you familiar with Kenneth Arrow's impossibility theorem

Fwd: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum

2012-11-05 Thread John Mikes
dear Hal and Stephen, I wanted to complete my response to both of you when at the point below a blip in the juice blanked out my internet-connection and kidnapped the text I had to that point. I don't complete it right away, read first whatever comes in - to facilitate a more comprehensive post.

Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality

2012-11-05 Thread meekerdb
On 11/5/2012 1:32 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 04.11.2012 22:03 meekerdb said the following: On 11/4/2012 1:18 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 04.11.2012 00:47 Alberto G. Corona said the following: : Is there something that I could know to be the case, and which is not expressed by a

Re: Debunking people's belief in free will takes the intention out of their movements

2012-11-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, November 5, 2012 1:56:53 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 Stephen P. King step...@charter.net javascript:wrote: The finding implies that free will is illusory. Free will is not illusionary. A illusion is a perfectly respectable subjective phenomena, but free

Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality

2012-11-05 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 05.11.2012 21:49 meekerdb said the following: On 11/5/2012 1:32 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 04.11.2012 22:03 meekerdb said the following: On 11/4/2012 1:18 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 04.11.2012 00:47 Alberto G. Corona said the following: : Is there something that I could know to be

Re: Detecting Causality in Complex Ecosystems

2012-11-05 Thread John Mikes
Dear Russell, I have my doubts about causality as a *complete* term: our 'systems', cf: ecosystem etc. include the up-to-date inventory of knowables as in our existing MODEL of the world - which grows over the millennia stepwise. (The 'cause' of the lightning is no more the ire of Zeus).

RE: Debunking people's belief in free will takes the intention out of their movements

2012-11-05 Thread Hal Ruhl
Hi John: See my 11/4/12 @ 4:43PM post on life re proposal ii - freewill precluded. Hal Ruhl From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 1:57 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re:

Re: Scott Aronson on free will

2012-11-05 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 31, 2012 12:25:12 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 , meekerdb meek...@verizon.net javascript: wrote: John Clark should get a kick out of this: http://www.scottaaronson.com/talks/ In computer science, we deal all the time with processes that are

Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread meekerdb
On 11/5/2012 8:13 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Even with the Theaetetus' definition of truth, which I find to be highly original and amazingly ingenious, we are still left without an explanation as to how the accidental coincidence of a Platonic Truth and an actual fact of the world occurs.

Re: Communicability

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 2:30 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King A tape recorder could prove your theory wrong. A tape recorder is an example of an observer of sounds, so no, my theory stands. Berkeley finally gave in and said that realism was acceptable because God could see or hear it.

Re: On hearsay

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 2:36 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King No, they don't all have to had witnessed it, they can simply be told about it. In court that is called hearsay. You are still thinking that my observers are only human... Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/5/2012 Forever

Re: The two types of truth

2012-11-05 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 2:41 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King There you go again. That's the same question that einstein raised, but in a positive format. He wondered why and how the universe was so conducive to reason and methematics. Einstein seemed to assume that humans where the only

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