Re: [PEDA] Flex do's and don'ts ?
i am doing my first flex circuit other than 'talk to my fabricator' (which i am doing except for language and time zone issues) is there any such thing as a standard material callout for thickness? or a unit of incrementing the requested thickness ? something comparable to the good old 062 050 031 callouts ? our requirement is 'pretty thin, but not too thin' :} (i.e. no particular dimensional requirement) also i wonder how to call out the copper thickness i want that 'pretty thick' it will be made in China, so i guess it will be metric units i am trying to stay with normal materials and ranges so we don't ask for more than we need it will be plated through and needs to take a pretty sharp bend radius i sort of remember reading once that trace turns (corners) should be radiused is this true? anyone have a compendium of do's and don'ts ? the fabricator says they do 2.6 mil traces standard and up to 7 layers odd layer counts ok ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com Forum Administrator wrote: At 02:44 PM 10/12/2004, you wrote: Joe Sapienza wrote: Good luck You said it. The poster may have better luck e-mailing directly to Altium. Screaming in a private forum is not going to get much results. It will not even make it to the intended audience. Hamid Hamid, Since you brought it up, I thought you should know that these forums enjoy a rather large Altium audience. Altium subscribers include those from the lowest ranks to the very top. You won't get an Altium response on this forum but you'll surly be heard. Forum Administrator Association of Protel EDA Users [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] CORE THICKNESSES
is there a table of standard core thicknesses somewhere? i have a 6 layer stackup top prepreg sig core gnd prepreg pwr core sig prepreg bott and am trying to hit 062 overall thickness within +-005 what are all the material thickness possibilities out there? (well maybe not ALL of them :) ) given 007 prepreg and 021 cores my vendor tells me that once you add the copper thickness at 1oz the overall is about 071 thick sounds like 017 cores would do it, but that also sounds like a wierd number thanks for any help Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] CORE THICKNESSES
thanks Harry Jeff the guidlines were good i am not doing impedance control, and they show more thicknesses than i had imagined - glad i'm not a fab shop! looks like i can pick one that will be plenty close and run that by my fab now that i am not just picking numbers out of the air Dennis Saputelli H. Selfridge wrote: The standard thickness of core material depends on who makes the laminates used by your fab. If your fab can't make the board to your required dimensions, you need to call around and see what other fabs can get/do. An example of available material from one laminate manufacturer can be seen at: http://www.chemitalic.dk/content/articles/dfmmatsel.htm A table of available laminates can be seen in design guidelines from a fab at: http://www.tru-lon.co.uk/pdf/guidelines.pdf Finished thickness for prepreg and some cores can be different from the raw thickness as supplied. When heated and pressed in the laminating press, some reduction in thickness of the individual layers tends to occur. The data sheet from the laminate manufacturer gives the raw and finished thicknesses. Again, the best source of information is from the fab. If you're controlling impedance, the finished thickness data is essential for modeling stripline and microstrip characteristics. At 11:56 AM 10/3/04, you wrote: is there a table of standard core thicknesses somewhere? i have a 6 layer stackup top prepreg sig core gnd prepreg pwr core sig prepreg bott and am trying to hit 062 overall thickness within +-005 what are all the material thickness possibilities out there? (well maybe not ALL of them :) ) given 007 prepreg and 021 cores my vendor tells me that once you add the copper thickness at 1oz the overall is about 071 thick sounds like 017 cores would do it, but that also sounds like a wierd number thanks for any help Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Bug in 99SE?
i have NEVER seen anything like that not even sure how that would be possible given that there is no cache for the PCB parts can you describe a little more about the nature of the changes and differences between old and new parts ? almost sounds like the image in memory is confused i bet if you close the file and reopen you will not be able to reproduce the problem Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Electra router
here is the link to the article by Mike re Electra tip http://www.connecteda.com/doc/Autorouting%20Techniques.pdf it is pretty interesting, exp the strategy re via to via spacing rule Dennis Saputelli edsi wrote: Len I suspect you also typed route and walked away to drink your coffee while the board routed. Was this after you used the autoplacement tools? Take a deep breath, put you reading glasses on and read the article I wrote for Electra. I have no vested interest in this with Electra, (unlike some others on this list). If you follow the format I outlined, you will learn to use an autorouter.I learned from a fellow named FRANK FRANK. That is not a typo that is his both his first and last names. After attending numerous and useless canned demos and seminars with Cadence, Frank opened my eyes on how to use autorouters.Frank has also endorsed this router. I would have to say he is one of the foremost experts in autorouting I have ever met. Please dont type route and walk away from the PC again, your boss might think you can be replaced with software. It is not a matter of free speech, it is a matter of saying something that is totally wrong. Doesnt any one have any integrity anymore? The router works well. Mike Reagan -- Original Message -- From: Leonard Gabrielson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:55:01 -0700 So much for freedom of speech. I downloaded the Electra router, and really wanted to give it a fair shake. I was very optimistic when I started, but it didn't take long to become very, very disappointed. 99SE is far superior. Len - Original Message - From: edsi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] time to upgrade 99SE? / Electra router Jon I dont believe for a minute that you know what you are doing. These are some pretty harsh words but dont blast a product (ELECTRA)that failed to route only becuase you dont understand how it works. If Electra didnt work then Spectra wont work either. SPECCTRA is a world class router, whose performance has not been equaled. I dont expect you could get this router to work either. The command set is the same for both routers... so SPECCTRA sucks too ...right? Learn to use the damm program before you release your ignorant opinion. Mike Reagan -- Original Message -- From: Jon Elson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:59:29 -0500 I finally downloaded the Electra router and tried it on a board I had just routed with the P99SE default router. I thought Protel did badly, but the Electra board was a nightmare. It wasn't even able to complete all the nets, it left about 5 undone. Protel made a fair jumble of traces all over the place, but Electra literally filled the entire area within the keepout border with tracks! I can't say for sure whether I had all the settings right (actually, I haven't found anywhere in Electra to set options, etc.) so I'm not sure this is a good comparison, yet, but so far I'm not very impressed, to say the least. Since this was discussed a while ago, I thought I would give a report. Jon -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Cannot click pcb parts from DXP
thanks i'll look at that ds Darren wrote: Hi Dennis, Looks like the bit that selects that is in the 4th line as shown below, this is an ASCII version of the file. 1780 is the stack bit checked and 1720 is unchecked, you might be able to do a change in a text editor, but that would depend on what other bits might be set also. ENDCOMP DEFAULTS 0 0 900 1720 1 1 1 1 ENDCOMP DEFAULTS 0 0 900 1780 1 1 1 1 Not sure what the problem is with the double click looks like the component area has a problem, save to ASCII might fix that also. Just tried opening a ex-dxp file from 2004 and the pad stack enable is checked.. :( Regards, Darren Moore -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] we are working on a board which is a substantial variant of a board which was done in DXP (not in P2004) by someone else my working file was saved back to 99SE which is what we are using i notice a few anomalies and wonder if there is any comment some, but not all, components cannot be dbl clicked to edit later we discovered that dbl clicking somewhere nearby but not particularly close to the component made the edit function work what is up with that ? another thing it seems that the pads of all components all have the 'enable padstack' enabled and of course that is not one of the properties available as a global edit in 99SE does the save back to 99SE always make 'use padstack' enabled because it is the norm in DXP? i am not sure this is a problem but it was at least a curiosity for me Dennis Saputelli -- __ _ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Cannot click pcb parts from DXP
when i save as ASCII in 99SE and examine the file i don't see anything like what you show below re stack i see records which are one per line and when i search the file for either 'DEFAULTS' or '1780' neither is found however saving the file as ASCII did appear to correct the component area problem so it does not look like the DXP to 99SE save back is exactly seamless Dennis Saputelli Darren wrote: Hi Dennis, Looks like the bit that selects that is in the 4th line as shown below, this is an ASCII version of the file. 1780 is the stack bit checked and 1720 is unchecked, you might be able to do a change in a text editor, but that would depend on what other bits might be set also. ENDCOMP DEFAULTS 0 0 900 1720 1 1 1 1 ENDCOMP DEFAULTS 0 0 900 1780 1 1 1 1 Not sure what the problem is with the double click looks like the component area has a problem, save to ASCII might fix that also. Just tried opening a ex-dxp file from 2004 and the pad stack enable is checked.. :( Regards, Darren Moore -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] we are working on a board which is a substantial variant of a board which was done in DXP (not in P2004) by someone else my working file was saved back to 99SE which is what we are using i notice a few anomalies and wonder if there is any comment some, but not all, components cannot be dbl clicked to edit later we discovered that dbl clicking somewhere nearby but not particularly close to the component made the edit function work what is up with that ? another thing it seems that the pads of all components all have the 'enable padstack' enabled and of course that is not one of the properties available as a global edit in 99SE does the save back to 99SE always make 'use padstack' enabled because it is the norm in DXP? i am not sure this is a problem but it was at least a curiosity for me Dennis Saputelli -- __ _ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Cannot click pcb parts from DXP
from 99SE assci file here is a record of no pad stack followed by one with padstack |RECORD=Pad|COMPONENT=0|SELECTION=FALSE|LAYER=MULTILAYER|LOCKED=FALSE|POLYGONOUTLINE=FALSE|USERROUTED=TRUE|NAME=5|X=6760mil|Y=5980mil|XSIZE=62mil|YSIZE=62mil|SHAPE=ROUND|HOLESIZE=32mil|ROTATION=180.000|PLATED=TRUE|DAISYCHAIN=Load|CCSV=0|CPLV=0|CCWV=1|CENV=1|CAGV=1|CPEV=1|CSEV=1|CPCV=1|CPRV=1|CCW=10mil|CEN=4|CAG=10mil|CPE=0mil|CSE=4mil|CPC=20mil|CPR=20mil |RECORD=Pad|COMPONENT=0|SELECTION=FALSE|LAYER=MULTILAYER|LOCKED=FALSE|POLYGONOUTLINE=FALSE|USERROUTED=TRUE|NAME=6|X=6860mil|Y=5980mil|TOPXSIZE=62mil|MIDXSIZE=61mil|BOTXSIZE=62mil|YSIZE=62mil|SHAPE=ROUND|HOLESIZE=32mil|ROTATION=180.000|PLATED=TRUE|DAISYCHAIN=Load|CCSV=0|CPLV=0|CCWV=1|CENV=1|CAGV=1|CPEV=1|CSEV=1|CPCV=1|CPRV=1|CCW=10mil|CEN=4|CAG=10mil|CPE=0mil|CSE=4mil|CPC=20mil|CPR=20mil Dennis Saputelli Darren wrote: Hi Dennis, Looks like the bit that selects that is in the 4th line as shown below, this is an ASCII version of the file. 1780 is the stack bit checked and 1720 is unchecked, you might be able to do a change in a text editor, but that would depend on what other bits might be set also. ENDCOMP DEFAULTS 0 0 900 1720 1 1 1 1 ENDCOMP DEFAULTS 0 0 900 1780 1 1 1 1 Not sure what the problem is with the double click looks like the component area has a problem, save to ASCII might fix that also. Just tried opening a ex-dxp file from 2004 and the pad stack enable is checked.. :( Regards, Darren Moore -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] we are working on a board which is a substantial variant of a board which was done in DXP (not in P2004) by someone else my working file was saved back to 99SE which is what we are using i notice a few anomalies and wonder if there is any comment some, but not all, components cannot be dbl clicked to edit later we discovered that dbl clicking somewhere nearby but not particularly close to the component made the edit function work what is up with that ? another thing it seems that the pads of all components all have the 'enable padstack' enabled and of course that is not one of the properties available as a global edit in 99SE does the save back to 99SE always make 'use padstack' enabled because it is the norm in DXP? i am not sure this is a problem but it was at least a curiosity for me Dennis Saputelli -- __ _ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Cannot click pcb parts from DXP
we are working on a board which is a substantial variant of a board which was done in DXP (not in P2004) by someone else my working file was saved back to 99SE which is what we are using i notice a few anomalies and wonder if there is any comment some, but not all, components cannot be dbl clicked to edit later we discovered that dbl clicking somewhere nearby but not particularly close to the component made the edit function work what is up with that ? another thing it seems that the pads of all components all have the 'enable padstack' enabled and of course that is not one of the properties available as a global edit in 99SE does the save back to 99SE always make 'use padstack' enabled because it is the norm in DXP? i am not sure this is a problem but it was at least a curiosity for me Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] 99SE Find Files Found
i just stumbled (after all this time!) on ctrl-F when in the main file list in the RIGHT window (only place it shows and which exposes the Find Files .. in the File Menu) this will search thru DDBs looking for internal files by file spec and/or by internal file date you can search by comment or size too it will then list them by the parent DDB and when you dbl click on the DDB it opens the and it doesn't start a second copy of 99SE Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Unconnected Ports
good question not that i know of, but would be interested if it is possible the ERC does show some of these things but apparently not ports for this reason i have made a habit of leaving the grid always on in SCH for the occasions when that is inappropriate did you know that holding the ctrl key will suspend the grid while say wiggling bits of things like text about ? (an interesting buglet here: the coord display shows as if grid is on but the actual action is correct) also i programmed ctrl-g to toggle the grid on and off this makes it bit easier to stay on grid compared to having to paw through the menus also the watch for the hot spot markers while drawing, this helps monitor connectivity ds Jeff Condit wrote: In Protel 99SE Schematic, a couple ports were positioned a few thousandths of an inch away from a wire and hence made no connection. This made the pins not get included in the netlist. The distance was too small to see in a quick visual check. Is there a way to quickly mark and find unconnected wire ends? Jeff Condit -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Unconnected Ports
JOE the ERC will not flag PORTS (AFAIK) power ports and other stuff yes it is interesting that it really doesn't want to let you place a port unless it is going to be connected you can trick it or move it later but try to just place one in the air, it will erase it automatically if it was not at least initially connected Dennis Saputelli Joe Sapienza wrote: Yes Jeff what most of us do is run an ERC(electrical Rules Check), it is evoked under the tools dropdown - Original Message - From: Jeff Condit [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:46 PM Subject: [PEDA] Unconnected Ports In Protel 99SE Schematic, a couple ports were positioned a few thousandths of an inch away from a wire and hence made no connection. This made the pins not get included in the netlist. The distance was too small to see in a quick visual check. Is there a way to quickly mark and find unconnected wire ends? Jeff Condit -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] PEDA] 99SE Find Files Found
this file lister is just what i have been asking for ages can't believe i never saw it it will list all the internal file details across multiple DDBs it somewhat ameliorates the DDB file date issue since you can easily see the internal file dates without opening all the DDBs in question Dennis Saputelli edsi wrote: Dennis wrote i just stumbled (after all this time!) on ctrl-F when in the main file list in the RIGHT window (only place it shows and which exposes the Find Files .. in the File Menu) 99SE SP6 is truly an amazing program. I don't think Altium knows how powerful this program is. Sure, it has a few minor quirks, but I am always amazed. After 6 years, I discovered something last week also. I use net classes to define almost all of my routing. You can a select net, or a group of nets and automatically add them to new or existing net class. The option is not available by using the class generator, where I would expect it to be. It only becomes available for use after you make your selections, and the yellow button is turned on below the double arrow in the class generator menu. I stumbled onto this after looking for easier methods to create net classes. Dennis thanks for the tip.I will explore with it Mike Reagan EDSI Frederick ,MD -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder
very sobering and interesting article in Printed Circuit Design and Manufacturing on this topic: the title is Why Lead-free Feels Like the End http://pcdandm.com/pcdmag/mag/0408/0408roi.pdf Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Orcad schem part field for TOPSIDE or BOTTSIDE
seems like this would be possibly a nice feature to optionally control from the schematic and be fully automatic if you didn't like the result you could still muck about with the parts selectively Orcad capture also has what i think is a new feature to v. 10: a big spreadsheet type panel with all the objects across all the sheets which can be sorted by their columns and which can be used to globally edit things reasonably simply Dennis Saputelli Ian Wilson wrote: On 03:07 AM 10/08/2004, Dennis Saputelli said: Orcad Capture has a schem part field for TOPSIDE or BOTTSIDE is there a way in 99SE or P2004 to get the netlist to dump the part on the indicated side of the board ? No, not automatically. You could use a part field (99SE) or a parameter (DXP/P2004) to indicate what side and then select and change globally - you would need a method to select components in the PCB based on what is selected in the Sch - can this be done in P99SE? (P2004 has a command to select PCB components based on what is selected in Sch, it works for components selected on multiple sheets. I can't recall if P99SE has this.) A script could do the layer flip in P2004 (iterate over all components and flip any that are on the wrong layer compared to the parameter/part field). Not sure if a macro could do it in P99SE, it may be able to but macro functionality is quite limited. A server could do it in P99SE. There are some tricks as you would need to deal with of course as the PCB components do not carry the part fields/parameters so you need to go back and compare with the Sch or the netlist. Ian -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Orcad schem part field for TOPSIDE or BOTTSIDE
In the case of this new orcad feature you specifically do it 'outside' of the graphical sch you point to sheets and it gathers a properties page kind of like a batch process ds Ian Wilson wrote: On 10:31 AM 11/08/2004, Dennis Saputelli said: seems like this would be possibly a nice feature to optionally control from the schematic and be fully automatic if you didn't like the result you could still muck about with the parts selectively Yep. I agree. Users have been suggesting a number of things (on the DXP forum) that increase the ability to control layout from sch. Things like setting layers and being able to create classes (nets, components etc) in the sch. Maybe some of these ideas will appear at some stage. Orcad capture also has what i think is a new feature to v. 10: a big spreadsheet type panel with all the objects across all the sheets which can be sorted by their columns and which can be used to globally edit things reasonably simply Sort of like DXP/P2004's List panel is it? P99SE has this but you have to export-change-import and this is a somewhat fiddly process. One of my dislikes about P2004 is that the List panel is always active (even if not visible). The List panel is great when necessary but filling it and emptying it *might* be a cause of delays when doing queries that affect lots of objects - there are delays but us users are not privy to all the causes, I hypothesize that the List panel is one cause. I say might as there is no way of confirming whether this is the case, but it is a possibility. However there are times when the List panel is very useful. You can sort by clicking on column headers. You can edit a bunch of objects at the same time. You can show child objects of group objects (polygons, components etc). Managing the columns that are shown could be better I think. The List, like the Inspector, by default only shows columns that are common to all the objects returned by the current filter. So when no filter is active it shows everything and so you don't have many useful columns - you can turn on more columns manually. The main issue I have with P2004 implementation of the List panel (spreadsheet view) is that keeping it up-to-date is possibly a cause of these pregnant pauses that one gets while running some queries/filters. I would like to be able to turn off the List panel so it is not having to be continually kept synched with the current filters. Ian -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Orcad schem part field for TOPSIDE or BOTTSIDE
Orcad Capture has a schem part field for TOPSIDE or BOTTSIDE is there a way in 99SE or P2004 to get the netlist to dump the part on the indicated side of the board ? Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] P99SE installation
have you asked protel? they should know specfically i suspect it is the order of installation of the various packages and of course lots of rebooting between installations i am always amazed at how much that helps resolve strange installation issues Dennis Saputelli Alfonso Baz wrote: I'm curious if anybody else has noticed the following when installing P99SE SP6 on either WIN2K or WINXP. Recently I upgraded my PC. I noticed after a clean OS install followed by installation of my usual software packages, windows Start-Help and Support didn't work. Also right-clicking My Computer on the desktop and selecting Manage failed to respond. Thanks to XP's system restore, I found the offending software installation. P99SE I'm looking into it at the moment already spent a few hours here and there, thought someone might be able to help me out Thanks Alfonso -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] changing power symbols
ok so now we have a challenge! (albeit a meaningless and stupid challenge which is always the best kind) those pesky power symbols must coded in there somewhere! time to start sniffing around the binary files Dennis Saputelli Leo Potjewijd wrote: At 31-7-2004 13:34, Rolf Molitor wrote: You can edit the power symbols like this: Get the System Menu (down arrow) and select Customize. Right click the Power objects and select Edit. There you see all your actual power objects. You can add new power objects here or change the existing ones with right click and New or Properties. When you select Properties you will see what bitmap file this power object uses. Just edit the bitmap to change the view of the power object. Rolf, I probably am doing something wrong, but all I can edit when I follow you description is the button in the toolbar and not the actual power object itself as it appears on the schematic Leo Potjewijd hardware designer Integrated Engineering B.V. [EMAIL PROTECTED] +31 20 4620700 -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] changing power symbols
according to Leo they don't meet his drawing standards requirements in the Netherlands Dennis Saputelli John A. Ross [RSDTV] wrote: Dennis Other than for the pure heck of it (as you say, sometimes a valid reason :-) ), what other graphic symbols are actually needed for a power port ? We have bar/circle/arrow/earth Leo, what additional symbols were you after in your original post ? John -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 4:27 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] changing power symbols ok so now we have a challenge! (albeit a meaningless and stupid challenge which is always the best kind) those pesky power symbols must coded in there somewhere! time to start sniffing around the binary files Dennis Saputelli Leo Potjewijd wrote: At 31-7-2004 13:34, Rolf Molitor wrote: You can edit the power symbols like this: Get the System Menu (down arrow) and select Customize. Right click the Power objects and select Edit. There you see all your actual power objects. You can add new power objects here or change the existing ones with right click and New or Properties. When you select Properties you will see what bitmap file this power object uses. Just edit the bitmap to change the view of the power object. Rolf, I probably am doing something wrong, but all I can edit when I follow you description is the button in the toolbar and not the actual power object itself as it appears on the schematic Leo Potjewijd hardware designer Integrated Engineering B.V. [EMAIL PROTECTED] +31 20 4620700 -- __ _ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] changing power symbols
you cant make your own power symbols but if you make a part with a pin (it can be very short) you should get a hot spot of course these parts would show in your BOM but this is where 'include blank part value' checkbox comes in handy, should be acceptable what do y'all use across the pond anyway ? Dennis Saputelli Leo Potjewijd wrote: Hi, at the risk of asking an old question: Has anyone found a way to change the shape of the built-in power symbols of P99SE? We use different symbols here in Europe I know I can build my own (I have a wide collection of them) but the lack of an electrical hotspot on these is (finally) getting to my nerves Leo Potjewijd hardware designer Integrated Engineering B.V. [EMAIL PROTECTED] +31 20 4620700 - ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] 99SE SP6 updating footprints
works for me too i have found that occasionally i need to point to another lib and back to the first one to refresh the list ds Wojciech Oborski wrote: I may confirm the behaviour that Leo described - - after adding/removing a component to/from a library, going back to PCB Editor, clicking on a library name in Explorer Window (Browse PCB tab) - - the Components list is updated. It means - it works for me. Regards, Wojciech Oborski Leo Potjewijd wrote: snip John, -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] 99SE SP6 updating footprints
there is no cache for PCB footprints (as there is for sch) when i did just what you described in your 1st paragraph only the component i was working on changed but the footprint field names changed in all the instances BUT THAT WAS LAST night on a different machine this morning i cannot reproduce the behavoir on a different box i even tried variations of mistakes i might have made like 'all free' vs 'free prims' go figure Igor's comment about going back to the leb editor and hitting the update might have worked once the footprint strings were stuffed in but now i can test it Dennis Saputelli John A. Ross [Design] wrote: -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 July 2004 02:24 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] 99SE SP6 updating footprints i'm sure this has been discussed (?) but i just noticed the following in 99SE PCB if you have several or more parts of the same footprint on a board and you type in a new and valid footprint name and do the global thing: copy footprint, footprint=same the one you are editing changes to the new footprint and all the others acquire the NEW FOOTPRINT NAME from the global operation but the footpints don't change to the new one Dennis Not quite sure what you mean here. I tried what I think you were describing quickly on a board here. I picked a 0603 part, changed the value in the footprint field to 0805, clicked global (footprint already checked) and set the combo box to footprint=same, clicked OK and all 202 items were changed OK. If I change the footprint field to a value which does not represent a valid footprint name in the library, then I see a global change in the footprint name according to the selection and no footprint change is applied, but I get a warning for every update instance that fails (footprint not in library), you don't mention a warning, and you state you used a valid footprint name, so I guess this is not the same as you are seeing. But I have seen some very strange behaviour with differences with the loaded (cached) library and the actual library where you have to drop/reload the library to update it. Not sure 'where' the actual pcb being edited 'looks' for the valid footprint but I would guess it would be the cached one so if the new valid footprint was added after the library was added/cached to the PCB editor then something like this could be possible I guess Do not know if this helps you any. John -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] 99SE SP6 updating footprints
each PCB part has it's own separate and complete instance in the PCB file (this is how you are able to unlock prims and move something and not change the others) the push process from the lib editor simply matches the footprint name changes them to the new version Dennis Saputelli John A. Ross [RSDTV] wrote: -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 6:19 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] 99SE SP6 updating footprints there is no cache for PCB footprints (as there is for sch) Dennis There must be some type of cache for the PCB library, or cache might not be the correct term. If some sort of cache is not used then footprints would be updated every time the PCB was opened from the pre-loaded libraries or the library was changed, it would not require a 'push' process like update PCB to do it. If say PCB editor is open with MYLIB library loaded, I open MYLIB for editing, I then add a new footprint to MYLIB, save and close it, If I browse the library within the PCB editor the new footprint is not yet available A push process of update PCB still does not make the footprint available. If I remove MYLIB and then add it back in the new footprint is now available for use. Always found it to be this way ;-) John when i did just what you described in your 1st paragraph only the component i was working on changed but the footprint field names changed in all the instances BUT THAT WAS LAST night on a different machine this morning i cannot reproduce the behavoir on a different box i even tried variations of mistakes i might have made like 'all free' vs 'free prims' go figure Igor's comment about going back to the leb editor and hitting the update might have worked once the footprint strings were stuffed in but now i can test it Dennis Saputelli John A. Ross [Design] wrote: -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 July 2004 02:24 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] 99SE SP6 updating footprints i'm sure this has been discussed (?) but i just noticed the following in 99SE PCB if you have several or more parts of the same footprint on a board and you type in a new and valid footprint name and do the global thing: copy footprint, footprint=same the one you are editing changes to the new footprint and all the others acquire the NEW FOOTPRINT NAME from the global operation but the footpints don't change to the new one Dennis Not quite sure what you mean here. I tried what I think you were describing quickly on a board here. I picked a 0603 part, changed the value in the footprint field to 0805, clicked global (footprint already checked) and set the combo box to footprint=same, clicked OK and all 202 items were changed OK. If I change the footprint field to a value which does not represent a valid footprint name in the library, then I see a global change in the footprint name according to the selection and no footprint change is applied, but I get a warning for every update instance that fails (footprint not in library), you don't mention a warning, and you state you used a valid footprint name, so I guess this is not the same as you are seeing. But I have seen some very strange behaviour with differences with the loaded (cached) library and the actual library where you have to drop/reload the library to update it. Not sure 'where' the actual pcb being edited 'looks' for the valid footprint but I would guess it would be the cached one so if the new valid footprint was added after the library was added/cached to the PCB editor then something like this could be possible I guess Do not know if this helps you any. John -- __ _ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] 99SE SP6 updating footprints
i'm sure this has been discussed (?) but i just noticed the following in 99SE PCB if you have several or more parts of the same footprint on a board and you type in a new and valid footprint name and do the global thing: copy footprint, footprint=same the one you are editing changes to the new footprint and all the others acquire the NEW FOOTPRINT NAME from the global operation but the footpints don't change to the new one is there some trick here to force them all ? they are place and i don't want to delete and reload nets to get them Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE
i couldn't find the thread you mentioned either i wrote protel support about this we will see if they answer, so far not yet what is driving this in part is that we have a zillion projects all over the place in fairly complex directory structures we often open mnay DDBs for either design reference or to swipe details or parts if you use protel to drill around to open files, then aside from a lot of worthless time spent, it leaves protel pointing to the wrong folder for the next operation we have a couple of good file managers that will pop us to the right spot with minimal fuss so the working method here is to locate the file then apply it to the app, works great for autocad and PDFs and most other progs Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve, I think you may have misunderstood me. IFF my memory serves me correctly, the discussion was about disabling only the second execution, not dis-associating the .ddb extension from Protel or otherwise compromising the natural windows double-click execution of a program based on association(s). Though admittedly, is there isn't another method, then what you're suggesting is probably the only thing that Dennis can do to stop the second (or third...) instance from occurring when a .ddb file is double-clicked... aj -Original Message- From: Steve Wiseman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 6:49 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE 23/07/2004 16:51:09, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I remember someone once-upon-a-time (Like Ian maybe?) saying that multiple instances was a defeatable within p99, either thru the ini files or perhaps a registry setting.. It's easy enough to just stop .ddb , .sch, .prj, .pcb and whatever else you're likely to double click on being associated with Protel. Fire up regedt32 (from task manager, if you can't find it elsewhere), then go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE, SOFTWARE, Classes, and delete (click on, then hit 'DEL') .ddb and all the others you fancy killing off. That'll stop them launching Protel when you double-click, but Protel will still be entirely happy to open them. job done, without all this messing about with application launcher, counting copies, and the like. The icons may no longer be as pretty in file manager. Tough. Steve -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE
colby just wrote back from protel and said no, there is no fix for this Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve, I think you may have misunderstood me. IFF my memory serves me correctly, the discussion was about disabling only the second execution, not dis-associating the .ddb extension from Protel or otherwise compromising the natural windows double-click execution of a program based on association(s). Though admittedly, is there isn't another method, then what you're suggesting is probably the only thing that Dennis can do to stop the second (or third...) instance from occurring when a .ddb file is double-clicked... aj -Original Message- From: Steve Wiseman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 6:49 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE 23/07/2004 16:51:09, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I remember someone once-upon-a-time (Like Ian maybe?) saying that multiple instances was a defeatable within p99, either thru the ini files or perhaps a registry setting.. It's easy enough to just stop .ddb , .sch, .prj, .pcb and whatever else you're likely to double click on being associated with Protel. Fire up regedt32 (from task manager, if you can't find it elsewhere), then go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE, SOFTWARE, Classes, and delete (click on, then hit 'DEL') .ddb and all the others you fancy killing off. That'll stop them launching Protel when you double-click, but Protel will still be entirely happy to open them. job done, without all this messing about with application launcher, counting copies, and the like. The icons may no longer be as pretty in file manager. Tough. Steve -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE
yes i know (drag) but i fumble (or forget) a lot! also! 2 copies is BAD at least for us the libraries loaded become very strange Dennis Saputelli Darcy Davis wrote: Hey Dennis, I can certainly understand your motivation here. We have a similar situation here, although I sometimes like being able to start more than one instance of 99SE as it allows me to reference one design on one monitor, and another on the other monitor. Forgive me if you were already aware of this, but instead of double-clicking the .ddb file, you can drag and drop it right into whichever instance of Protel you're working out of. Works great so long as you can override your instinct to double click. Darcy Davis Design Engineer, Dynastream Innovations, Inc. -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 26, 2004 11:15 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE i couldn't find the thread you mentioned either i wrote protel support about this we will see if they answer, so far not yet what is driving this in part is that we have a zillion projects all over the place in fairly complex directory structures we often open mnay DDBs for either design reference or to swipe details or parts if you use protel to drill around to open files, then aside from a lot of worthless time spent, it leaves protel pointing to the wrong folder for the next operation we have a couple of good file managers that will pop us to the right spot with minimal fuss so the working method here is to locate the file then apply it to the app, works great for autocad and PDFs and most other progs Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve, I think you may have misunderstood me. IFF my memory serves me correctly, the discussion was about disabling only the second execution, not dis-associating the .ddb extension from Protel or otherwise compromising the natural windows double-click execution of a program based on association(s). Though admittedly, is there isn't another method, then what you're suggesting is probably the only thing that Dennis can do to stop the second (or third...) instance from occurring when a .ddb file is double-clicked... aj -Original Message- From: Steve Wiseman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 6:49 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE 23/07/2004 16:51:09, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I remember someone once-upon-a-time (Like Ian maybe?) saying that multiple instances was a defeatable within p99, either thru the ini files or perhaps a registry setting.. It's easy enough to just stop .ddb , .sch, .prj, .pcb and whatever else you're likely to double click on being associated with Protel. Fire up regedt32 (from task manager, if you can't find it elsewhere), then go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE, SOFTWARE, Classes, and delete (click on, then hit 'DEL') .ddb and all the others you fancy killing off. That'll stop them launching Protel when you double-click, but Protel will still be entirely happy to open them. job done, without all this messing about with application launcher, counting copies, and the like. The icons may no longer be as pretty in file manager. Tough. Steve -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Adobe Illustrator
Autocad you can use all the true type fonts and put the borders and junk exactly where it is in the design when the design changes the graphics move with the holes buts it's a little hard to get the films made right since most people in that business are mac shops san jose blue seems to know what buttons to push but they won't tell me Dennis Saputelli RogerHead wrote: I am considering AI for designing instrument front panels. What do other people use? Our publications department people love it, but they're using it every day. I'll use it a few times a year. But I want to get away from the blocky, 'designed by an engineer' appearance - you know, front panel artwork laid out in Protel. Roger -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE
thanks but i don't see how this would do what is wished i see an option for 'allow only singe copy' but that is for the total commander program itself i messed around for a bit but 2 copies of 99SE pop up just as always Dennis Saputelli Michael Wieser wrote: Dennis http://www.ghisler.com Total Commander, looks like the old Norton Commander, -- Michael Wieser ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Elektronik und Leiterplattenlayout H tzing 6 A-4906 Eberschwang Austria Tel: (+43) 7753 3320 Fax: (+43) 7753 3320 14 Mobil: (+43) 650 826 59 27 -- BTW and on a vaguely related topic has anyone tried ExplorerPlus ? http://www.novatix.com/ as i am always in search of a file manager to replace the hated (at least by me) Windows Explorer i have found this prog and am so far impressed enough that i actually shelled out the big bucks ($40) after the free trial run Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE
great ! thanks i will try and report tomorrow and yes they should have taken care of this for us Dennis Saputelli Harry Lemmens wrote: Supposedly, this app will allow you to control this aspect of windows. I have not tried it myself. http://www.softaward.com/732.html Actually, it should have been written into the application itself (That is, to detect, and dis-allow a second instance of itself to be launched!) Done correctly, it would have opened the DDB in the already active session. Cheers Harry -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 11:11 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE is there any utility out there that will stop a second instance of a program from running when you double click a data file with a file associated which would start that program ? sure would love that, seems like it would be feasible from the small amount i know about this stuff this desire is due to the all too frequent mishap of double clicking a DDB instead of or during dragging it to the title bar after 2 copies are running i have found it a MUST to quit them both and restart 99SE, else something goes screwy with the loaded libraries i'm sure i posted this some time ago but thought i would try again Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE
oh well, thanks anyway Harry but unless i missed something in my exhaustive :} 3 minute trial of CONTROL LAUNCHER here is what i see: the launcher they provide will not start a second copy of the launched program if the default setting of 'one copy only' is set and you use their program launch button but if you dbl click on a DDB in 'explorer' a second copy is started up as usual i would think that it would be possible for a program to intercept the file association program 'launching' process and prevent that but as for now the search goes on (maybe i am the only one who wants this) BTW and on a vaguely related topic has anyone tried ExplorerPlus ? http://www.novatix.com/ as i am always in search of a file manager to replace the hated (at least by me) Windows Explorer i have found this prog and am so far impressed enough that i actually shelled out the big bucks ($40) after the free trial run Dennis Saputelli Harry Lemmens wrote: Supposedly, this app will allow you to control this aspect of windows. I have not tried it myself. http://www.softaward.com/732.html Actually, it should have been written into the application itself (That is, to detect, and dis-allow a second instance of itself to be launched!) Done correctly, it would have opened the DDB in the already active session. Cheers Harry -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 11:11 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] stopping second instance of 99SE is there any utility out there that will stop a second instance of a program from running when you double click a data file with a file associated which would start that program ? sure would love that, seems like it would be feasible from the small amount i know about this stuff this desire is due to the all too frequent mishap of double clicking a DDB instead of or during dragging it to the title bar after 2 copies are running i have found it a MUST to quit them both and restart 99SE, else something goes screwy with the loaded libraries i'm sure i posted this some time ago but thought i would try again Dennis Saputelli -- -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Shortcuts in 99SE ?
in the 99SE DDB system (not the windows file system) it is not possible to add a shortcut (or link) to an external file, is it ? would a be nice feature Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Shortcuts in 99SE ?
John, we are talking about shortcuts or 'links' not importing the file itself into the DDB, so i don't see how the wrapper is an issue Terry, i can't believe i never noticed that after all these years! works great for me, PDFs too but is see the following issues which i find puzzling: i started a new MSACCESS DDB design i dragged in a small schematic and a small board so it would be something a bit like a real design both files were very small, 10K + 900K i then made a LINK to a JPG the file size in the DDB shows 3M but the JPG is only 68K the ICON in the DDB shows the shortcut arrow thingy then i linked to a PDF the PDF external file is about 60K and the DDB link file is about 6K which seems about right so what is up with the JPG case? BTW, the PDF pointer works fine, as does the JPG each launcing their own associated apps also can you expose the properties of the LINK ? i want to see the path that the link contains but it is blank in the right click properties dialog Dennis Saputelli Terry Creer wrote: Hi Dennis, See page 30 of the P99SE Handbook. Just right click in a DDB window and choose 'Link' from the menu (the menu that contains New, Import, Import Folder, Import Project, Link, View). Cheers, TC -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 21 July 2004 10:31 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Shortcuts in 99SE ? in the 99SE DDB system (not the windows file system) it is not possible to add a shortcut (or link) to an external file, is it ? would a be nice feature Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Shortcuts in 99SE ?
this is getting embarassing i thought i knew it all in 99SE but you can enter a description in the properties box and it persists and is listed in the file list never noticed that either could be very handy still want to know how to get the path of a linked file after the fact of linking though i played with a few LINKs Jpegs and Gifs appear to be imported and and thus the explosion in size i suspect they are brought in as bitmaps PDF seems to make a true link the acrobat title bar says 'embedded' document DOC file seems to import the whole file at a slight increase in size so i wondered if these LINK things are true shortcuts WAIT, they are true links! even though the JPG file seems to be imported, changes to the external file are reflected in the DDB i closed the DDB, changed the external JPG file and reopened the DDB and the change was shown then i repeated above except with the DDB open and it still showed the change when the JPG was reopened so this is pretty cool now if it only showed the path, or did i already say that ? :}} Dennis Saputelli Dennis Saputelli wrote: John, we are talking about shortcuts or 'links' not importing the file itself into the DDB, so i don't see how the wrapper is an issue Terry, i can't believe i never noticed that after all these years! works great for me, PDFs too but is see the following issues which i find puzzling: i started a new MSACCESS DDB design i dragged in a small schematic and a small board so it would be something a bit like a real design both files were very small, 10K + 900K i then made a LINK to a JPG the file size in the DDB shows 3M but the JPG is only 68K the ICON in the DDB shows the shortcut arrow thingy then i linked to a PDF the PDF external file is about 60K and the DDB link file is about 6K which seems about right so what is up with the JPG case? BTW, the PDF pointer works fine, as does the JPG each launcing their own associated apps also can you expose the properties of the LINK ? i want to see the path that the link contains but it is blank in the right click properties dialog Dennis Saputelli Terry Creer wrote: Hi Dennis, See page 30 of the P99SE Handbook. Just right click in a DDB window and choose 'Link' from the menu (the menu that contains New, Import, Import Folder, Import Project, Link, View). Cheers, TC -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 21 July 2004 10:31 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Shortcuts in 99SE ? in the 99SE DDB system (not the windows file system) it is not possible to add a shortcut (or link) to an external file, is it ? would a be nice feature Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] was Shortcuts in 99SE ?
at the risk of beating a dead horse ... i don't recall any mention in this list over the years regarding the file description you can enter in the DDB for a given internal file don't know how i missed this and am finding it very useful has anyone else seen this, use it, don't care about it or whatever ? Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Board warpage?
you'll probably get a lot of different answers 150 deg F is not very hot, and this will probably help but still there will be stresses ... since this bd is doing 'a very important job' you may want to tread lightly what is the measure of 'badly warped' ? how big is the board and what is the shape? ie long and narrow or what how many layers ? balanced construction internally? parts on both sides ? what is the cause of the warping? it could be in the design, bare bd fab, or assy method or some combination of all was the board wave soldered at some step? if not preheated properly and that can be one cause keep us posted or put up a link to a pic if you can Dennis Saputelli Robison Michael R CNIN wrote: This email is not a Protel-specific question but instead concerns a generic problem with some boards I'm getting, so I apologize for being off-topic, but this forum has more PCB experience than any other I know of, so I would like to get your advice. A partner in a manufacturing effort is sending us full populated boards (ICs and passive components) that are badly warped. We sent them back and rather than get the boards remade and repopulate them, they want to heat the boards up (fully populated) for three days at 150 degrees Fahrenheit in order to straighten them out. These boards perform an extremely important job and I'm worried about the stress on both the electrical components and the boards themselves. Should I allow them to do this or should I demand the boards be remade? Thank you, Michael Robison -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] SOT-23 pinout
Ian Wilson wrote: On 02:15 PM 16/07/2004, Dennis Saputelli said: ..snip.. BTW remember the To92's that were ECB ? (or was it BCE ?) just get out a bit of sleeving and your solder sucker and you were all set quite a bit harder to deal with in the case of SOTs though I have seem prototypes with SOT-23 upside-down with the gull-wing legs bent to meet the board. It would have been done in a small production run except reverse pinned versions were available. Worse think about this was that another design done shortly after suffered the *same* problem - I couldn't believe the lack of care and attention to detail. same experience here we were once given a job to make a few minor changes to a pcb already designed NOT on the to-do list was to fix the SOT23's which were all wrong and which we discovered by carefully manually checking things that were not supposed to need checking when i pointed out this problem (and assuming i had it somehow wrong) they said 'yeah those boards didn't work' :} ds Ian -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] SOT-23 pinout
and what is rule #2 ? :} personally, i oscillate between liking the 1 2 3 convention and the E B C convention like many things 'it's all bad' i once had some T1 3/4 LEDs from HP the short leg was the anode for that *particular* p/n which is why they weren't very bright when installed Dennis Saputelli Mira wrote: Hi Dom, The basic numbering is 3 1 2 However many other variants of the pinout exist out there. Rule 1: Always check the datasheet. Mira --- Dom Bragge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When you organise your footprints, what pinout do you use for SOT-23's? Do you organise the pins... -like shown in the attachment? -or with pins 23 reversed? The bigger question really is: Where do you derive your pin numbering guidance from? I find that some datasheets just show the pin names against the actual pins ( cutout the middleman of *numbers*) thus avoiding the issue altogether. This doesn't help those of us who want to be able to use a common footprint across multiple designs. One answer is define your own company standard, but if I chose against an industry standard, that'd be a bit silly wouldn't it. = Dom Bragge CID Snr PCB Designer Sydney, Australia ( 99SE sp6 ) Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] SOT-23 pinout
when we say 'different pinouts' are we talking about the the geographical location of the given pin function or are we talking about the pin *number* assigned to the given geographical location ? it makes a difference! anyway what is clear from this dialog is that we all care about what we do and that there is no substitute for that care which can be readily automated or completely provided by the CAD supplier (vendors sell hot dogs in baseball stadiums) it is a bit amusing that we probably get the xxx hundred pin thing right but that the lowly 3 pinner often bites us BTW remember the To92's that were ECB ? (or was it BCE ?) just get out a bit of sleeving and your solder sucker and you were all set quite a bit harder to deal with in the case of SOTs though ds Ian Wilson wrote: On 12:03 PM 16/07/2004, Mira said: Dennis, The pin numbering can only be 1 2 3. Mira, In Protel, pin numbers do not have to be numbers, they can be letters. So you can use E,B,C for numbers if you want. If you have very commonly used parts making a matching set of Sch and footprints with matching pin numbers (using letters for both if that is better for you) makes good sense. One less thing to check. The only downside to this is that you then have multiple footprints to manage if you ever decided to change you SOT-23 layout. The pin names might be 1 2 3 or E B C. I haven't seen transistors with different pinout but There sure are/were transistors, in SOT23, with different pinouts. I have not seen them recently but you used to be able to buy reversed pinout versions of common transistors from Philips. May well be obsolete now. Ian -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Corrupted database
your ddb is probably ok (we hope) i have yet to have one go south try deleting all your printers and reopening it i have never had repair do anything either good or bad i assume you have rebooted the machine somewhere along the way next try deleting or renaming the .rcs file in \winnt good luck and let us know the outcome ds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a ddb with a moderately complex schematic, and was just wrapping up an initial parts placement today in preparation for a meeting with the client tomorrow. I attempted to use the print preview manager to print to a PDF, but had various snafus along the way, mostly because I was trying to rush. Now, the preview is completely blank, and any time i attempt to open the PCB I get Access violation at address 028E9486 in module 'ADVPCB.DLL'. Read of address 000F. I've tried turning off automatic compaction, performing a manual compaction (which appears to succeed), and performing a Repair (which also appears to succeed). But I'm no closer to seeing my PCB than I was several days ago. HELP Steve Hendrix * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Router comparison
i was going to write this too layer count of course effects cost hole count has not been part of the cost matrix for sometime unless you are making perf boards or something i like a board to look nice as much as the next person but there's just not time anymore (there used to be more!) and product cycles and rev spins are so frequent that a lot of craft oriented efforts turn out to be just wasted time i know because i've done it too often of course the lines between functional issues and cosmetic issues are often blurry so the human router will still be around for a while and Ian i like PICs ! lots of mips for the buck and more and more on board stuff everyday Dennis Saputelli Dom Bragge wrote: --- Mira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Autorouted boards in general have more holes, use more layers and this affects the price. It's been a long time (10yr) since more holes really affected the price (within extremes of course). I'd suggest that if an autorouted board took up more layers than a handrouted version, it wasn't done correctly. (i.e. I respectfully differ in opinion.) If your boss cares about saving some money from shorting the time for finishing the job and doesn't care about the PCB cost, then you must be working for a design bureau. You design the board once but it will be manufactured many times. I used to design a lot for long runs. Now much of my work is short order, as in I often only get only one panel's worth built. An autorouter is still a great investment. Saving a day or more of my time with an AR is worth it. = Dom Bragge CID Snr PCB Designer Sydney, Australia ( 99SE sp6 ) Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT: Mentor PADS comparison
the 99SE autorouter is pretty good at yesterday's technology if your board is largely through hole and DIPs and pin headers and if the placement is reasonable it will route it in no time and it will be largely usable i seems to have hardwired code that recognizes those sorts of patterns on bds using today's techology it is marginal or worse as usual the answer is 'it depends' Dennis Saputelli Tom Robinson wrote: Is the autorouter in 99se sp6 really as bad as users make it out to be? I thought NeuroRoute was the 'cat's meow'. I remember years ago when it came out, a person who used it said they were 'tickled pink'. tr :) -Original Message- From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 9:55 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT: Mentor PADS comparison On 11:22 PM 19/05/2004, Protel Hell said: the perfect CAD does not exist, for one thing, for it to be perfect would require zero bugs and cost would be free, while DXP comes closer than most to the latter, it is also a leader in the former does anybody have a worse autorouter than Protel? or is not OK to mention that either? I actually have no problem with people complaining about Protel. I would prefer it was not anonymously as this is sometimes used as a mask to make people braver than otherwise. People generally tend to be more careful and considered in their comments when they can be identified. I also really like it be factual and to be constructive. I think it is perfectly reasonable to point out where the program falls short of competitors. The autorouter is a good example - it is being improved and some people are getting useful results, but I would be surprised if it was as good as the competitors and it is still quite slow. I suspect my standard test board is just too hard - I will retry the P2004 version of the autorouter on something a little less challenging to see how it goes at some stage. My Electra trial ran out (again!) before I could run this board through it. (I may send it on to Pat Nystrom to see if he will run it through and send back the results - will you do that for me Pat?) Ian From: edsi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT: Mentor PADS comparison Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:55:14 -0500 PH Which CAD system are you used to working with? I would like to hear more about your perfect CAD system. Is it called Virtual CAD? Mike Reagan EDSI -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Exporting DWG/DXF
not exactly sure what your last sentence means - copper pours? what is the purpose of the conversion? we do the export as primitives with square ends we generally delete most of the layers incl: top, bottom, pastes, solder, keepout and more in the course of deleting all of that the copper pours go away this leaves the layers: outline, multi, topoverlay, maybe something else after deleting most of the layers we do an explode ALL in acad 2002 i think (but am not sure i remember this exactly) that acad R14 needs to do explode object by object that would obviously not be acceptable look around for a LISP program that will do explode all in R14 there is something called BOMB and there are others try cadalog.com for freeware lisp stuff Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings the List, Our draftsman tells us that the multi-layer issue is not so much of a problem. Our real problem, it seems, is that when Protel exports a drawing (regardless of whether it's in DWG or DXF format and regardless of whether it is exported as block or primitives)he cannot explode the drawing into a useable format. He is using Autocad 14. Is there any way to export drawings in a form where Autocad can resolve it into a number of unfilled polygons? Thanx, Michael Badillo -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] PCB Crashes Protel 99SE
ideas: uninstall your printer driver or change the default printer driver to something else i doubt that this is a license issue or alternatively maybe it has something to do with loaded libraries after closing protel and rebooting try moving one or both of these files ADVPCB99SE.INI CLIENT99SE.rcs to some other folder (they are in \WINNT) i am pretty sure (not positive) that it will create these files if they are not found if it works you will have to set up some stuff again, but it's not too bad ds Eccleston, Barry wrote: I am experiencing a problem when using pcb in 99se. The program crashes when I attempt to open a pcb file. It goes through the motions and gets as far as placing the tab for the pcb file, and then it locks up. The strange thing is that I can open the file ok when a colleague has a Protel database open on his machine. When he closes the database (with Protel still running) I cant open a pcb again. I am not an expert on networks etc, but I know we have a floating licence somewhere on the network. How can I find out the location of the licence? The person who installed the software originally no longer works here. On the security menu it states on pcb that access is granted for 2 users. Our IT specialist is baffled. I am using 99SE service pack 6. Has anyone got any ideas Barry -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] False DRC Clearance Constraint Error (99SE)?
i assume this is near a bd edge? the bd outline and keepout don't necessarily need to be coincident sometimes we either break the keepout in this situation (if the board is routed) or just bend it out a little to make the clearance negative clearances don't work Dennis Saputelli Ray Mitchell wrote: Hello, I have a clearance constraint between a trace on the keepout layer and a component on the top layer set to 0mil (I've also tried -1mil) but it still gives me a DRC error between the keepout trace and the component pad that sits on top of it. This is obviously not the correct approach. Suggestions? Thanks, Ray Mitchell Ray Mitchell Engineer, Code 2732 SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego, CA. 92152 (619)553-5344 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Need more software
thanks i took a very quick peek and i think AB Commander has it beat i will tool around a little more later Dennis Saputelli Rusty Garfield wrote: Hi Dennis Try this one out. looks like old xtree gold. does ftp, zips files adds and deletes to zip exe files, double pane and more. Been using this for years on win2000 no problems. http://www.ghisler.com/ *PS i rarely use Explorer anymore take a look at AB Commander as an alternative to Explorer http://www.winability.com/abcommander/ it's not perfect but it's the best explorer replacement i have found - saves a lot of time when jumping around the hard drive saves favorites, recents and stuff like that Dennis Saputelli ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com Rusty Garfield C. I. D. Development Technician IV Sugar Land Product Center (281) 285-7611 (voice) (281) 285-7619 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (e-mail) -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Need more software
i think all the files should always just go in: My Documents i suppose it could have sub directories of My Schematics My FPGAs etc :} only kidding but hey, it's good enough for MS ! seriously, i think something like John has proposed sounds reasonable if i read this correctly then a zip could be expanded to recreate the structure easily on another machine a lot of apps (most?) do pretty poorly at saving us drudge work of routing around in the file dialogs when they could reasonably guess where we might want to go or be at the very least an app i think should propose at least initially to do a Save As to the folder in which the file resides this is not as obvious as it at first sounds when you consider that the file (and app) may have opened by double clicking in Exploder *(TM) so the app's file open dialog may not have been used and be aware of where it is Acad does a pretty fair job of figuring this out *PS i rarely use Explorer anymore take a look at AB Commander as an alternative to Explorer http://www.winability.com/abcommander/ it's not perfect but it's the best explorer replacement i have found - saves a lot of time when jumping around the hard drive saves favorites, recents and stuff like that Dennis Saputelli Josie, Perhaps this makes a case for a firm DXP project folder structure (Altium standard), instead of just using the system default. Would make interoperability between tools a little easier as well. Many people have requested / touched on this issue before but now that DXP forces the use of projects it is time to start looking at a better method of file storage / destination folders. OK this is a pretty rigid approach, but so is project management really, so when considering this suggestion, do not think of it as barricades, but as auto file sorting. *Suggestion* Under project options an extra tab to select all these options would be nice, but not really needed, just some structure definition. The term system default below is not DXP default, but the default for open in any DXP dialogues seems to be the windows 'last open folder' default. First an extra tab in the project options folder to define the location of all libraries, which over rides the system default. Ok, you can do this in some way in the editors but the actual folder location should be fixed, leave the editor stuff to picking the libraries you want to use. The creation of a Project group name should auto create a /root folder. The prjgrp link file should be put here. An extra Tab in the Project options for USER setting the destination of the /root folder to over ride the system default should be available to the user.. The creation of a Project should auto create a project name folder in that root /root/project/ The project link file should stay in the /root/project/ sub folder, that way the whole project is self contained and you can just look in the /root/ directory to see how many projects are there and what they are. As the project is self contained they are now also PORTABLE and a lot easier to perform Auto/Remote/Network backups restores of course compare whole projects. As the user creates a new file, a subfolder should also be auto created to place the files in, for the different file types, like /root/project/schdoc or /root/project/exports As the user generates a new output type, a subfolder should also be auto created to place the files in, for the different file types, like /root/project/cam or /root/project/reports Likewise when you ask to 'open' a file or project the default should automatically go the appropriate folder for the active group/project folder first, or in the case of new projects, the group root folder. If files are imported to the project, and do not belong to a file group, a copy of the imported files should be auto copied to a /root/project/file type folders first then the /root/project/imports folder if the file type is not assigned (documents, PDF...). They can always be deleted later. With the exception of the next point, the above is not a big deal, it is merely looking up defaults, very little to leave to chance, and elimination of error or just saving time is a good thing right? The view / structure of these files/folders should be followed in the Project browser window in DXP. ## The ODB++ standard defines a structure for file sorting, perhaps we need a DXP file structure standard. Do not know about others, but I detest playing 'hunt the file' games, or not knowing what files are linked to what projects as it uses link files. The file structure and project structure should be 'self contained' or self explanatory, with or without DXP open. Best Regards John A. Ross RSD Communications Ltd 8 BorrowMeadow Road Springkerse Industrial Estate Stirling, Scotland FK7 7UW -- ___ Integrated Controls
Re: [PEDA] Good schematic/PCB development suite recommendation?
so as a friend of mine once said: 'you got any _good_ news'? our 2004 has still not arrived i was advised by altium that the CDs were 'injected' into the US mail system in mid march (i'll leave that comment as the straight man setup line) it has been a long long stated goal of protel to offer a complete suite of end to end design tools - way back to the earliest days when they weren't really offering them so i guess this latest push into FPGAs et al is the final leg of that journey PCB layout tools are maybe just not sexy enough to hold their full attention any longer a solid 3D modeller (2-way w/ solidworks), a real (useable) interactive semi automated comp placement tool and a screaming -interactive- autorouter would be examples of a few productivity enhancers that would be much appreciated by us board guys these types of enhancements don't seem to be on their radar however, the multi channel stuff is compelling enough for us to give 2004 a whack also in a few years 99SE will probably finally break due to some Access/MDAC or other MS problem, so the switch over is an inevitability i think Dennis Saputelli edsi wrote: The problem with DXP, it is fairly widely acknowledged, is that its increased power has come with an increased complexity which has not yet been sufficiently been compensated by ease-of-use enhancements. An experienced 99SE user is going to face a serious retraining hit at this time. The general report from those who bite the bullet and learn the DXP way is that it is worth it, *but*, quite obviously, if you are going to have to retrain, the time is ripe to consider other systems. Here is my assessment Fair Warning ... don't uninstall your 99SE if the EULA indeed recommended that you uninstall. I have had 2004 long enough to do about 6 pcb designs, and can report few if any real improvements. Let's count the real improvements, without arguing whether features are better or not. PCB onlyI don't dabble in the schematica world SPECTRA interface has improved, ODB output is an improvement, PAD stacks are finally implemented. RELIABILTY rates with version 3.x. I got access violations to the point that it quit working on me completely. Had to shut down for a half day, translate that to half day loss wages. Mouse control rates with version 3.x . Things stick to your cursor and you scream at your PC LET IT GO , I don't want to pick that up. Maybe I need to slow down my inputs so DXP can catch up. I forgot to mention, it worse than a resource hog it is a pig. It is slower than 99SE. I am running a 2 Gig machine. I had to disable MACAFEE virus and my firewall. Half the time it wont even come up if the firewall is activated. How is that for real feedback and not just saying it sucks. Some Keystrokes are disabled so now you have depress buttons with the mouse/ cursor which slows design down, it has the real feel of ACCEL. I also am trained on PCAD.Most the menus are not easily legible, you have do read thru alot of uneccessary inform ation and pictures to change one parameter. The same information is there but the presentation is poor. Maybe a PADS user or an ACCEL user might like it because they don't know the difference. ACCEL graphics looks like bit-mapped Crayola and if you zoom out in PADs round pads turn to squares and other objects , so this looks good to new Altium customers. The masking features are cool but in case ya'll didn't know it, you could mask in 99SE. In single mode, with one a mechanical layer click on the net, net class etc. on the pcb panel. The mask isn't crystal clear, but Protel could have improved this without introducing ACCESS VIOLATIONS , Bet you didn't know you mask in 99SE. I've been doing it for years to analyses complex routes. 99 percent of what I typed into the online help turned up no help. Custumizing is very limited. I exceeded this program's abilty in a few hours. I exceed the original DXP release in about 30 minutes. It was useless. I must be getting smarter. 2004 is much better than DXP but ... There is no real clear advantage over 99SE PCB other than popping up ACCESS VIOLATIONS . It designs the same boards, in more time . Believe me, by the time I rolled my 6 th board out, I know how to use this program. It takes longer to design with because you fight with it instead of it rolling off your finger tips. I don't care if Altium is listening or not at this point, Im just passing the costs on to my customers like everyone else does. Hope Altium never needs a design from me because I would charge them my highest rate. At this point, I don't have time to debug their tools anymore, including their router. This stuff should be mature, very mature. It has been under development for a long time. DXP is basically on it 4th release with 2004. I don't see the dust settling until SP2 for 2004. I will be closer to retirement by then so it won't
Re: [PEDA] Are fiducials necessary?
do you really mean suggested to remove ? i would think that in the context of a license agreement this would be a possible requirement to remove (which is a common term) licenses aren't about making suggestions so the question is not the practical question of whether they can coexist or run at the same time as a practical matter but whether their is a requirement on their part that we remove 99SE the acad license has a requirement to remove and destroy any previous versions ds Tony Karavidas wrote: -Original Message- From: Steve Wiseman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] clip (I wonder if that's still the case in 2004 - my copy just turned up. Reading the license suggested that I'd have to remove my copy of 99SE, and I'm damned if I'm doing that, so time for a chat with the distributor and Altium, I guess). Steve You can keep 99SE and 2004 on the same machine (and even have both open at the same time) Tony -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] REMOVE 99SE? was - Are fiducials necessary?
we should have changed the SUBJECT, sorry Dennis Saputelli Tony Karavidas wrote: -Original Message- From: Steve Wiseman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] clip (I wonder if that's still the case in 2004 - my copy just turned up. Reading the license suggested that I'd have to remove my copy of 99SE, and I'm damned if I'm doing that, so time for a chat with the distributor and Altium, I guess). Steve You can keep 99SE and 2004 on the same machine (and even have both open at the same time) Tony -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel 99SE - Routing vias are all 20mil diameter w/28mil hole!
the spectraa router? as far as i know it always comes back w/ 28 holes pretty easy to fix if you don't forget, but somewhat bush league the 99SE router only uses the board via and i haven't seen it trash the hole size there are 3 candidates for sizes for a given type have you checked all 3 size pairs? mike i think has said this is fixed in P2004 re spectraa Dennis Saputelli Ray Mitchell wrote: Hello, In my design rules I've specified that all routing vias are to be 20mil diameter with a 10mil hole. However, the router makes them all 20mil diameter with a 28mil hole. Nice feature! I know it hasn't always done this - only sometimes. I only have one design rule for routing via style. Its scope is Board and it is enabled. Am I holding my mouth right for some routes and wrong for others? Ray Ray Mitchell Engineer, Code 2732 SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego, CA. 92152 (619)553-5344 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Good schematic/PCB development suite recommendation?
ditto this snip below for us and we haven't gotten 2004 yet either although we did the access code in the mail and that was over a week ago I went back to Protel and made the transition from 99SE to DXP. I don't know why they didn't just fix 99SE instead of basically starting over. Trying to use DXP at first made me feel like a complete idiot, it is a resource hog (my 1GHZ computer is too slow?) and the software still isn't quite finished (I am still waiting for 2004, hopefully it is better). This has been very painful, but at least it wasn't $40k a seat! at $40K you can get a pretty nice car wrapped around a seat PADs charging for the copy/paste *is* pretty outrageous do they charge for mouse support or file save as too? Dennis Saputelli Cliff Gerhard wrote: Bill, I think your opinion about Mentor is spot on. Sorry long rant ahead A few years back, I took a job managing the layout department (among other things) for a company that had been using PADs for several years. One of my jobs was to pick new CAD software because they were very tired of PADs. The one that really got me was when I asked PADs about cutting and pasting. I had an op amp circuit that was similar to one that we had done on another board. I wanted to copy it to the new design. It would only copy the components. All of the traces would be removed. They came back with you need our design re-use package. $4k + Maintenance to cut and paste! Unreal! We had also been bitten several times by software bugs (DRC and Gerber generation) that caused very expensive and time critical boards to be scrapped. I was personally using Protel at the time, but it was not even considered because they wanted a high end tool. We were using Cadence for IC development (well into six figures for those tools!) and I was under some pressure to pick the Cadence PCB tools. All of the engineers (about 20) were using OrCAD (which had just been bought by Cadence) and we didn't want all of the engineers to have to learn a new schematic capture program, so we also needed to be able to use OrCAD as a front end for a while at least. The tools from Cadence and Mentor were not well integrated at all at that time. They had both been gobbling up smaller companies and adding bits and pieces to their software into their existing products. Many different and non-intuitive ways to do the same thing. I did my research and it was very much like dealing with used car salesmen. A very unpleasant experience. At the time, Mentor had just picked up Veribest and their interactive manual routing was very impressive. We had to maintain all of our old PADs designs and both salesmen (Cadence and Mentor) assured me, in writing, that they had a working PADs translator and it would not be an issue. I made the decision to go with Mentor. The cost was about $80k for two seats. We immediately had problems. The PADs \translator was non functional for quite some time and we had a bunch of problems trying to use Orcad Netlists. You had to have an error free netlist loaded to even place a part on a new board! Once we placed the P.O., we needed support to get through these issues. Tech support and the leghumping salesman, who had been calling me several times a day prior to getting the P.O. signed, were now taking days to return my calls. At one point, I feared that I might loose my job over the decision. After about a year (no exaggeration) the layout people were finally getting up to speed with the tools and fairly happy with them. These were very sharp people and excellent designers too. I have since moved on and am now back with a small product development company. I was again faced with the problem of choosing a CAD system. We do not have the deep pockets to afford the high end tools. After my experience with Mentor, I am not sure I would have considered it even if we could afford it. I went back to Protel and made the transition from 99SE to DXP. I don't know why they didn't just fix 99SE instead of basically starting over. Trying to use DXP at first made me feel like a complete idiot, it is a resource hog (my 1GHZ computer is too slow?) and the software still isn't quite finished (I am still waiting for 2004, hopefully it is better). This has been very painful, but at least it wasn't $40k a seat! I hope Protel is not bailing out of the shrink wrapped CAD market. There isn't much else out there for us who can't afford (or don't need) the high dollar tools. If they are putting all their eggs in the embedded system business I can't see them surviving too much longer. Then I guess I'll be back to that familiar place of having to pick a new CAD system. o~o Cliff Gerhard, P.E. E-M Designs, Inc. -Original Message- From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 12:48 PM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA
Re: [PEDA] Strange problem with PCB library 99SE
we don't normally work this way (lib internal to project ddb) so i am not positive but did you do the Add libs thing (button in browse libs) ? ds Terry Creer wrote: Greetings all, I'm having this strange problem with a project I'm working on. I have the PCB library inside the same database. I go into a PCB document and share that library and a lot of the components do not show up in the library browser window. In order to view all of the components, I have to export the library out of the database (either into another database or just as a lib file). What gives? Any Ideas? I can't remember this ever happening before... Cheers, Terry -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] 2004 getting fired
what happens if you place the parts on the pcb before the netlist load? won't it match up the designators? how come you don't post in the DXP forum? altium might listen to you there more Dennis Saputelli edsi wrote: I might get fired for any more errors 2004 makes. I had previously reported that loading a netlist was troublesome, I can now report that it is also very unreliable. On two previous designs, 2004 would not load 0603 components without the library opened. On a new design I have two parts that will not load even if the libraries are opened. IT flat out will not load the components.I confirmed there are no problems with my netlist, or libraries by creating a ddb file in 99SE. The netlist loads flawlessly in 99SE. What's up Altium? I can get fired for errors like this. Mike Reagan -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] reg hole on PCB and library
1] i wouldn't worry about not seeing the hole as long as it is the drill file 2] no there is no way and it really is a shame Dennis Saputelli Paresh Pai wrote: Hi everybody. I am facing the following problems in 99SE 1. I have designed a single sided PCB for a microcontroller programmer. It has a 7812 regulator chip which is to be soldered and also fitted to the PCB (using a small nut), so that the PCB ground copper acts like a heat sink. To do this, I have placed a rectangular copper fill with a hole in the center and aligning the hole with that of the 7812 (TO220 package).To generate the hole I placed a pad(multilayer) and adjusted its hole size to be equal to X-size and Y-size (all 100 mil).But when I generate a print preview by using following settings, I do not see the hole in the copper fill. The whole copper fill appears as black. The settings I use are : Include Top side Include bottom side Include double sides all are selected(checked) Show holes ..selected(checked) Color set... Black White The layers selected in the preview are Bottom layer Keepout layer Multilayer Can anybody help me to find the hole ? 2. My second problem is regarding libraries. When I load a new schematic, is there any way to know the library from where each component was taken by the designer of the schematic ? If you double-click on a component , it shows the library reference,footprint etc. but the library is not known. Similarly in PCB editor, it shows the footprint etc. but the library is not shown. Thanks in advance. Paresh Pai -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Data line transformers (was: Antenna coil)
yes pls keep us posted would love to see an AES app Brian Guralnick wrote: My first test PCB printed with data line transformers is coming next month, no electrical connection from A side to B side. Is anybody interested? Capabilities: Get over 500 megabits from 1 side to the other. Perfect phase clock drivers inverters. Great for isolating SPDIF/AC3/DTS audio signals, Ethernet line transformers, cheaper smaller than optocouplers, faster by a long shot, analog signal mixers and more... Slow speed signals need only a 2 layer PCB, high speed need 4 layer. Also, 1 PCB to the next with gap sizes typically under .2 inch. (this is for super high voltage separation, in the 5-50KV and above when PCBs edges are coated.) _ Brian Guralnick -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] 2004 Global edits
you should post your experiences to the DXP forum as well as here Dennis Saputelli edsi wrote: Tony wrote Maybe Altium could implement a few more global dialog boxes for us to have high level, quick functionality like the T,I,P box. (Component Text Position is what it's really called) Tony I agree and more.. the inspector panel is better than the first DXP release but is far from polished For example if you select a few random components and look at the inspector, it shows in blue NAME and Component Comment. If you accidently click on either one of these two it goes wacky and arbitrarily picks one component. If you click on somewhere in the panel it toggles between reading the words NAME and component . Both are the same word as REF designator. Which by the way is the correct name and never used. It's just illogical behavior. What is the meaning of this? We had a President here in the USA that tried to parse the word isIs Altium parsing the word NAME? It has a wacky, non logical feel to it. Off topic Can anyone tell me what the other silly choices ie Standard, mechanical, graphical, NET TIE have to do with my component? It looks like another PCAD migration. What is it? These options are in the inspector. I am starting another PCB board thank you, This is the second board that 0603 components will not import without the library being opened. I experienced this before wanted to confirm the problem was not me. I am convinced there are now two bugs with loading netlists. In case Y'all didn't notice, in 99SE components which began with zero like 0805 and 0603 would sometimes shorten by dropping the leading zero's. It didn't happen all of the time but I know how to reproduce it. I think there might be something related to the dropping the leading zero. There are a few other problems with netlist loading. Including two things that must be applied. Dont you hate to install Bill Gate's crap and all the questions are hit any key to continue otherwise it is Good Gye. Just freaking finish the install, we already established I what I want to do. Loading a netlist requires you to always check this same little box ADVANCED MODE. Then it always asks the same silly question.. do you want match the reference numbers?. WAIT did I say reference numbers, this the first place 2004 uses the word REF Number then it never uses it again. This part was programmed by a subcontractor . I am sure of that. The most annoying part of the netlist load is the poor report. It fails to give you a comprehensive report of what does not get loaded. The report only contains ref designators and the word NO ACTION. No kidding , I know it was no action. A comprehensive report with part information (starting with footprint) would help me find out exactly what went wrong. So tonight I have two pages of reference numbers that I am manually writing next to them, my footprints. Oh how cool, I am using a Pencil for something that was automatic in every version up to DXP. I hope Altium still feels that PCB is part of their long term plan, The package has alot to offer, There are things I am dying to try out but PCB is taking up more time because the ball was dropped on a few things including loading netlist. So I am spending time learning to use my pencil instead of using the advanced features. If you u haven't tried the Autorouter, Don't . It still doesn't work. I have baselined a BGA design with 2000 components against 2004, Spectra and ConnectEDA, Electra. 2004 sputtered for 2 hours and on the the third hour crashed. That is really sad. They should take the router off this product and not even offer it for sale. Mike Reagan EDSI -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Advanced PCB / Advanced Route 3.0
what i remember is that it would honor the lock if the preroutes were 100% complete for any given net Dennis Saputelli matt wrote: wasn't there a bug in advanced route 3.0 which prevented this from working ? I seem to recall (although not quite sure) some version having this problem of ignoring the lock and routing from scratch everything no matter what had been locked. - Original Message - From: Joe Sapienza [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Advanced PCB / Advanced Route 3.0 I believe that If I remember correctly and I understand your question, all you need do is select to lock all pre routes and then run the autorouter. - Original Message - From: Jim Labrecque [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 11:36 AM Subject: [PEDA] Advanced PCB / Advanced Route 3.0 I realize I am using old software, but it is all I have on hand- Does anyone know whether it is possible to manually lay down some tracks in Advanced PCB, and then have Advanced Route recognize these tracks when you open the design? What I am trying to do is some incremental routes with advanced route- For example, the first routing I am trying is to have Advanced Route route all of the voltage/gnds. This is a multilayer design with 4 planes consisting of 3 voltage and 1 ground. I route the 3 voltages and grounds and then export the design back to Advanced PCB for some cleanup- (ie shortening some of the stubs and adding additional pads for connection into the plane on high current parts). I then save it so that I can import it back into Advanced Route and route the rest of the signal tracks. However, after the design is loaded into Advanced Route, any additional tracks or pads that I have added are not in the design- Anybody have any ideas or suggestions? Thanks, Jim -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Advanced PCB / Advanced Route 3.0
it doesn't sound like you have a netlist, do you? so while we are strolling down memory lane ... how about MAXROUTE ? had a protel interface and would only run on windows 2.0 (win 3.0 was too advanced) fortunately you could quit win 2.0 and it would drop back to the good 'ol DOS prompt where you could get some actual work done Dennis Saputelli Jim Labrecque wrote: The problem is that the preroutes aren't even recognized by Advanced PCB- Another example- If I take the PCB design in Advanced PCB and draw a square out of a series of tracks on the top layer and then import it into Advanced Route- Advance Route doesn't see the square- (what I mean is that physically is not there. It is as if I never placed any tracks). I appreciate all the responses. Thanks, Jim - Original Message - From: Joe Sapienza [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Advanced PCB / Advanced Route 3.0 I believe that If I remember correctly and I understand your question, all you need do is select to lock all pre routes and then run the autorouter. - Original Message - From: Jim Labrecque [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 11:36 AM Subject: [PEDA] Advanced PCB / Advanced Route 3.0 I realize I am using old software, but it is all I have on hand- Does anyone know whether it is possible to manually lay down some tracks in Advanced PCB, and then have Advanced Route recognize these tracks when you open the design? What I am trying to do is some incremental routes with advanced route- For example, the first routing I am trying is to have Advanced Route route all of the voltage/gnds. This is a multilayer design with 4 planes consisting of 3 voltage and 1 ground. I route the 3 voltages and grounds and then export the design back to Advanced PCB for some cleanup- (ie shortening some of the stubs and adding additional pads for connection into the plane on high current parts). I then save it so that I can import it back into Advanced Route and route the rest of the signal tracks. However, after the design is loaded into Advanced Route, any additional tracks or pads that I have added are not in the design- Anybody have any ideas or suggestions? Thanks, Jim -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] 2004 DXP Looks Great but lost features
in 99SE you don't need any specific lib opened to load a netlist we often use orcad netlists wher NONE of the footprints match any names that we will use in that case we just place them as we see fit and the netlist load succeeds without a perfect match this is an appropriate working method at times ds Ian Wilson wrote: Doesn't P99SE have the same issue. You have always had to have the source libraries loaded (not opened). If a library is not loaded in the library list the component will not be loaded. The difference is that DXP and P2004 allow you to specify exactly which library it should come from and there is none of that silly XREF substitution that P99SE and older could get up to. I *love* the strict library management of DXP. Going back to the Just grab it from the first lib in the list that has the same footprint name just doesn't cut it for me. I want full control. The thing I find irritating, a bit, is that if I *fully* specify the source library when nominating the footprint, should I really need to have that library loaded in the Library panel? Surely it can go fetch. Ian -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] An example why IPC footprints are often sub-optimal
this is a great picture Ian! i totally agree with your statements here we have found the smaller footprints to be both more reliable and easier to assemble a large pad deposits more paste than a smaller pad (-duh!) this, in excess, is one of the main causes of tombstoning and the huge silkscreen outline accomplishes little except maybe it makes a tiny profit for ink vendors :) we have NEVER been able to use protel supplied footprints for this reason alone as to maximum packing density: isn't this a function of the placement jaws? and isn't that a moving target? what are good numbers for 0603 for example? side to side and end to end? i have no experience w/ SMTPlus i assume they know what they are doing and i have heard only good things about them but since we can't get native protel footprints it greatly lessens the appeal for us when you say wave solder are you referring to bottom side parts which are glued and then waved? regardless of the pad size and in our somewhat limited experience with this process (glue, flip and wave) it has been less satisfactory than a fully reflowed process Dennis Saputelli Ian Wilson wrote: One to stir up the hornets nest a little...and a little off topic maybe http://www.considered.com.au/ProtelFiles/images/Phycomp_vs_IPC.gif shows the Phycomp (the old Philips, now part of Yageo) reflow 0402 footprint versus the 0402 footprint from the Altium P2004 Chip Resistor library (in the ../Library/PCB folder) which I think is based on IPC. You can see the ridiculous difference. The one on the left is based on reflow with a +/-0.15 mm placement accuracy. I need maximum packing density - IPC in this case is not on for this application. The problem with one size fits all (and an oversize like the IPC postage stamp footprints) is that assemblers and others can grab onto it as a pseudo-standard and say we only accept IPC footprints. Instead of attempting to understand the pressures on the product and adapting processes they simply take the easy way out. Sure, using small footprints may reduce yield and increase costs - in some applications this is appropriate. By *blind* use of overgenerous footprints I think designers are loosing the ability to optimise their products globally - they are reduced to local optimisation only. And yes, this is probably a skill that is developed over time and with experience - but newcomers to the industry should be told, in no uncertain terms, that IPC footprints are an appropriate starting point and since they are designed to cope with many soldering processes are necessarily not optimum for any.. I am not keen on any library that thinks wave footprints are the same as reflow. Does SMTplus makes the distinction? Ian -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel 99SE crashes when Printing PCB
I have definitely seen what Ivan says HOWEVER in my experience all such crashes were SCH and not PCB which i believe was the user's problem Dennis Saputelli Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: If it's a networked printer, I've seen Protel crash when trying to print to a non-existent (or not properly configured for sharing) network printer. IIRC, it was a HP printer that wasn't visible on the network that caused the crash. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel 99SE crashes when Printing PCB Ohhh boy, this is an oldy. I cant remember what was done to fix the problem, but, if you search the [PEDA] archives for printer driver crash, you will find a bundle of issues. I do remember that Protel had some problems with true post-script thru laser printer drivers. 1 fix I remember was to delete all your printer drivers from the control panel install this win-PDF printer driver from: http://www.daneprairie.com/ After loading / printing to pdf / saving you project, re-install your true printer driver Protel should stop crashing when printing in the future. _ Brian Guralnick -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] SMTPlus Common PCB footprint specifications
we looked at SMTPlus but as i understood it, they don't do protel did you have to create the footprints from dwgs? Dennis Saputelli Frances Wheeler wrote: I have been using SMTPlus for years for footprints http://www.smtplus.com/ they have the expertise and my customers have always been pleased with the production results. They will develop a new footprint quickly and get it back to you the same day. Check it out they have saved me lots of time and therefore lots of money. Fran -Original Message- From: Leo Potjewijd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:24 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PEDA] Common PCB footprint specifications At 10-03-04 18:36, Ray Mitchell wrote: I'm sure this is a repeat, but is there a simple specification readily available that gives the commonly accepted (if there is such a thing) dimensions for 0402, 0603, ..., SIOC-14, etc., and all the other standard footprints? I don't really want to wade through a bunch of technical stuff to derive all of this myself and I certainly don't want to trust a priori the patterns that come with Protel or any other product. It's really annoying when part manufacturers don't provide these footprints, assuming they are common knowledge. Others have already refrenced the s'standards' (IPC). I'm a little more sceptical. To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a standard footprint.. Was it not the CEO of Sun Micro Systems who said at one time I just LOVE standards, because there are so many of them. In short, even a simple shape such as a 0805 is implemented differently by different manufacturers. Weird? I'd say so. Surprising? Not really: OUR wheel is MUCH rounder. New and improved.. New formula.. You know the buzz. I use a spreadsheet (not ready for the public yet, but I'll post it sometime in the not-so-distant future to the Yahoo list) to calculate a footprint from the dimensions and tolerances of the component given by the mfgr. The differences are sometimes quite large (as in: HUGE); in fact so large that a component from anoher mfgr will not fit on the same footprint (we lost a complete production run on that one). I'd still say to look up the mfgr datasheets (whenever available) and derive your own footprints from that information using a combination of guidelines (IPC, JEDEC) and common sense, seasoned with a tuch of practicality (you don't want 73 mils distance on 0805 pads when you're using a 5 mil grid). Hey, I even round off pad sizes that were designed in mm to an integer number of mils.and I'm in the metric part of the world ;-) Find values (IPC, JETEC, your own fab house) for things like placement accuracy, heel and toe solder fillets and ask your board stuffer what component clearances (and directions) are needed for what processes and machines they use. All of these (and then some) will influence the final optimum footprint.. Last but not least: small series (50+) can most of the time get away with minor deviations from optimum, big series (500+) usually can not, huge series (10k+) never can. A lot of work, yes, but one only uses so many different components.. I found it worthwile to invest the effort: I have no production failures yet on my boards (apart from that one that was designed for Philips TSOP and could not accomodate Fairchild). BTW, I am designing boards for just 10 years now, so I really don't know much about the subject yet. In fact, I'm still learning, every single day. To qoute another frequent poster to this list: I hope this helps. Regards, Leo Potjewijd hardware designer Integrated Engineering B.V. [EMAIL PROTECTED] +31 20 4620700 -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] 2004 DXP Looks Great,
Phil's comments pretty much sum up our findings, feeelings and experience too (except we never did Mentor) after a few whirls around our DXP is 'still in the box' too there's just never any time to lose getting up to speed and messing around with new ways of doing the same thing Dennis Saputelli DUTTON Phil wrote: Bill, You've hit the nail on the head. I've used Protel since 1987, I've also used Mentor. I was influential in converting my current company from using Mentor to using Protel. Simply because, for our kind of work, Protel was more intuitive, faster, and the designer could focus on designing the board. My DXP is still in the box. My current workload cannot tolerate the learning curve or reduction in my efficiency to change to DXP at this time. There are some good things in DXP, but there are many features that really don't seem to help my productivity. regards, Phil Dutton CID -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel ceashes (EX: Vias do not tent when expected)
my 2 cents on this i think this topic is on topic by elimination i would say ATI on-motherbd video is next suspect FYI and not pertaining to your crashes the latest stuff i have read in PC magazine says that defragging doesn't do much good might do a little harm in the sense of the risk of rewriting everything is this machine targeted at CAD users or general office use? would love hear what the final solution is Dennis Saputelli Leo Potjewijd wrote: I'm not sure this still belongs on the PEDA forum But I'm sure to be corrected if it doesn't. At 06-03-04 00:03, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: snip-snip Because Protel99SE.exe has caused errors and will be closed. My condolences. Thanks snip First of all, the virus scanner and network differences are not likely to be the cause, in my opinion. Rather the most likely causes, at least the ones I'd first suspect, are the video card or a memory problem, i.e., a bad chip. There are video cards known to cause Protel to crash ATI cards were famous for this. And a bad memory can cause, of course, all kinds of problems. Sometimes they will only show up with one program that happens to be vulnerable. As far as the bad memory possibility is concerned, I'd swap around memory devices, if possible, or at least run some very thorough memory test utilities, the kind that you let run all night On the 'old' machine at work (the one that took out 7 Ddb's in one crash) I use a Matrox Millennium G450 (32MB) videocard that was purcased especially for that PC to run Protel... That machine (Compaq evo) has 768 MB memory and is running W2k/sp3. All designs were in access format on the network CADserver. It is always possible, as well, that a particular installation has gotten trashed in some way, so reinstalling may be in order. Remember, when reinstalling Protel, to delete the *99SE* files in the System folder. (They aren't likely to be the problem here, but why not be thorough?) I did (after the first crash) re-install Protel using the description posted here several times but apparently that did not help. We thought it to be bad memory, too. That's the reason why the CEO took action and arranged new hardware overnight (usually that takes about 9 months - coincidence?). I started from scratch with a brand new Sun Fire V60x (Xeon CPU, 2.8GHz) out of the box: a true virgin (... and a _very_ noisy beast too). Of course it is possible that this machine cointained a bad chip in it's 512 MB memory, but I would find that highly unlikelyEspecially with ECC memory If Sun keeps their delivery date I'll have an extra 2GB on monday; I will run memory tests monday night on both machines. I had to get the SCSI and ethernet drivers from the internet (that hardware is so new, W2k doesn't know it exists), installed W2k and was very pleased to see the built-in video card (turns out to be an ATI RAGE XL) accept a 1600x1200 true color setting with the default driver so I did not load any other video drivers, just added W2kSP4. The network guys then added McAfee with automated updates from the server. I then installed Protel from the CD and added service pack 6; finally converted the Ddb's to filesystem format on the local HDD. Needless to say I rebooted between every single step of the whole process, just to be safe. But it still lets Protel crash after just one week of service... Thanks to the changed storage structure the damage is limited though. Where did I go wrong? Ok-ok, I'll see to it that I get another videocard. Any suggestions? No AGP slot in there, just two PCI-X slots. As a comparison: at home I use a P2-910 in an Asus CUV4X motherboard with 768MB (two brands) and a Nvidia RIVA TNT2/64 with 32MB on 1280x1024 (the monitor gets very fuzzy above that). The OS is W2K/sp4, virus scanner and firewall from Norman Security suite. I do not use a grounded outlet, have way too much software installed for a stable system, not re-installed Windows for over a year, use antique DOS-based utilities regularly and usually have 7 or more programs running simultaniously (in short: do everything one shouldn't do for stability's sake) and never had a Protel crash..Hey, I even do regular defragmentation on all drives. I think I'll take the CEO up on his remark 'why do you not work at home, then?' But seriously, folks: I'm stumped. If you guys are too: I don't blame you Leo -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [PEDA] Vias do not tent when expected
hi Leo i can't reproduce your problem, please see if i did it right i set via default paramter to tent i set a design rule to a big expansion to make it obvious note: i used via specification in design rule to apply only to the diameter and hole size of the defualt via type i then placed some vias nad they were tented on an individual vias i unchecked 'tenting' and the big expansion showed up this is all as expected did i miss something ? Dennis Saputelli Leo Potjewijd wrote: At 03-03-2004 23:35, Ian Wilson wrote: On 12:28 AM 4/03/2004, Leo Potjewijd said: Hi. I just discovered something strange: I like my vias tented so I keep the tenting checkbox in the default via settings dialog checked. While interactively routing a PCB I noticed that the automatically placed vias did not get tented (and the forementioned checkbox is still checked) I do not want to end up with a board that has some vias tented and some not, and the global edit on the complete board afterwards is too easiliy forgotten. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious, but haven't a clue Please help me out, guys.. There are two ways to force tenting on vias - or at least there are two places to control the solder mask expansion. The via has a tenting attribute and there is a design rule that controls solder mask expansion. I have no idea which has precedence, I would hope the tenting attribute of the via. However you may want to check, and play with, the Manufacturing-Solder Mask expansion rule. If you make the rule expansion ridiculously big do the auto-placed vias follow the silly expansion? I just did. They (the autoplaced vias) did, too Seems the rule takes precedence over the default setting. Only when the mfg rule specifically targets vias it has any effect, a rule specifying expansion for just surface and thru-hole pads does not change the expansion for the vias Before we had the tenting attribute you had to apply a large enough negative expansion to force tenting. The checkbox being tented but the actual via being untented does sound very odd - unless there is a conflict between the rules and the tent attribute. Are the auto-placed vias the same dimensions as the manual placed vias? Yep. Are they both vias? Again, yep. The manual ones aren't free pads are they? (Just asking some possibly silly questions.) Hey, everyone stands the chance to overlook the obvious... What happens if you save as ASCII and then re-load? What does the ASCII file show for a tented and untented via? The ASCII records are not hard to read. AhemI would not say not hard to read, just not hard to understand..;) The ASCII file states a neat tenting=true for the tented vias; for the non-tented vias there is no such statement. I would expect 'tenting=false', but its completely missing Reloading the ASCII file does not solve the problem. Further probing reveals no solutions but yet another mystery: the via annular rings are calculated different from pad annular rings... I've seen this one before, but still have no clues. To top it all off: I'm running a fresh P99SE/sp6 installation on a brand new computer under a fresh installed W2kPro/sp4, all files on local disk. I just about had it with P99SE. Leo Potjewijd hardware designer Integrated Engineering B.V. [EMAIL PROTECTED] +31 20 4620700 -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Vias do not tent when expected
see my earlier response on this the via chekcbox takes precedence which i think is logical since you are at the most specific level only by having this ability can you easily make exceptions to the design rule without a NO DRC i for one would hate to wade through a DRC about this exception, but i see your point that there may be stuff going on without one's specific awareness i always thought that soldermask expansion belonged better as a property of the pad or via than as a design rule but at this point, whatever re the default primitive settings as in this example there is one more point that may need clarification and which may be at the root of the original post the 'default' setting applied in Tool Prefs Defaults ONLY applies when using the Place Via command if instead you are manually routing a board and the * key when changing layers then the via in the Via routing style is used and it does not carry the tenting attribute even if it matches the size hole of the default via Dennis Saputelli Abd ulRahman Lomax wrote: At 07:34 AM 3/4/2004, Leo Potjewijd wrote: I like my vias tented so I keep the tenting checkbox in the default via settings dialog checked. While interactively routing a PCB I noticed that the automatically placed vias did not get tented (and the forementioned checkbox is still checked) This discussion has gone back and forth a few times, yet some basic facts about the situation I found less than clear. There was an ambiguity about what was written. The aforementioned checkbox is the checkbox in the default via settings dialog. That is a setting which will control the configuration of vias manually placed while that setting is active. It does not affect vias that are already placed, nor will it necessarily affect what the autorouter places. (You might expect it to, but Protel is put together from various programs that do not always function together with complete rationality. The 99SE autorouter, in particular, is its own creature and I'm not surprised to find that it does not respect in any way the default settings, just as the default settings may be altered whenever you edit a primitive as it is being placed. The default settings dialog is a convenience of occasional use, not an absolute control. What I'm saying is that if the autorouter places vias which do not have the tenting checkbox checked, it is no big surprise once one is familiar with how 99SE works. Historically, tenting was controlled only by design rule, the tenting attribute was one of the latest things added in the Protel 99 release, as I recall. It's a convenience. It's not particularly one that we requested, since using design rules to control tenting was already quite sufficient. If there is a conflict between a design rule and the tenting checkbox, I'd place my bets on the design rule, given the history of the program. Which one is paramount? I don't know, and I'm not particularly motivated at the moment to go and test. I never check that tenting checkbox, precisely because I don't know the answer to the question. I do know that if the checkbox is unchecked and the design rule says tent, it will be tented. That's enough for me. Because the design rules are explicit and their scope can be readily determined (this gets even better in DXP), it is better design practice to control tenting through design rule than through a primitive attribute manually (or supposedly by default) assigned to each via. If somehow that checkbox got unchecked, how would you notice it? Suppose you have vias of a certain size and you want to tent some and not others? The checkbox does make a way for you to do this, but there is a better way, and that is to convert the vias to pads, give the pads a distinctive name (say TENTED for the ones you want tented), and create a pad-scope design rule for Free-TENTED. Vias are basically free pads with the restriction that they are only round and do not have names. If you want to distinguish some of these vias from others, it is better to select them and convert them to free pads (with Tools/Convert); then -- they will still be selected -- you can globally edit them to give them a distinguishing name. I do not want to end up with a board that has some vias tented and some not, and the global edit on the complete board afterwards is too easiliy forgotten. Yes. Precisely. That's why the design rule approach is better. They (the autoplaced vias) did, too Seems the rule takes precedence over the default setting. The basic error here is in assuming that the default settings. I can easily understand why one would make the assumption. *The default settings are a convenience to speed up manual design, they don't control anything.* What I don't know, it's an interesting question, is what happens if a design rule for tenting is in conflict with the checkbox on an individual via. I dislike ambiguities like
Re: [PEDA] Pads and single pin connectors.
maybe the pad of the E is not the same number as the pin of your one pin Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, I've got a problem I can't figure out. We do a lot of interconnect with wires soldered into a single pad. We generally designate them as E?. I cannot figure out how to relate the pad to the schematic. I've tried using the one pin CON1 out of the library. I've tried naming a port symbol. Neither seem to work with the Update schematic option. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? Michael Badillo * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Vias do not tent when expected
in 99SE the via tenting attribute (and/or the override) will take precendence over a design rule expansion amount as it should IMO i have never seen one be untented mysteriously, but maybe i never noticed it Dennis Saputelli Ian Wilson wrote: On 12:28 AM 4/03/2004, Leo Potjewijd said: Hi. I just discovered something strange: I like my vias tented so I keep the tenting checkbox in the default via settings dialog checked. While interactively routing a PCB I noticed that the automatically placed vias did not get tented (and the forementioned checkbox is still checked) I do not want to end up with a board that has some vias tented and some not, and the global edit on the complete board afterwards is too easiliy forgotten. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious, but haven't a clue Please help me out, guys.. There are two ways to force tenting on vias - or at least there are two places to control the solder mask expansion. The via has a tenting attribute and there is a design rule that controls solder mask expansion. I have no idea which has precedence, I would hope the tenting attribute of the via. However you may want to check, and play with, the Manufacturing-Solder Mask expansion rule. If you make the rule expansion ridiculously big do the auto-placed vias follow the silly expansion? Before we had the tenting attribute you had to apply a large enough negative expansion to force tenting. The checkbox being tented but the actual via being untented does sound very odd - unless there is a conflict between the rules and the tent attribute. Are the auto-placed vias the same dimensions as the manual placed vias? Are they both vias? The manual ones aren't free pads are they? (Just asking some possibly silly questions.) What happens if you save as ASCII and then re-load? What does the ASCII file show for a tented and untented via? The ASCII records are not hard to read. Not sure I have too many other ideas. Bye for now, Ian -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] How to highlight the Net in different colors in 99SE
that was the feature i was trying to suggest i thought it was in there but i couldn't remember it exactly right either thanks andy Dennis Saputelli Tony Karavidas wrote: Andy, that's brilliant! I don't think I ever knew about that feature!! That should fix him right up! I wonder how well it works in DXP with the masking??? -Original Message- From: Andy Gulliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:44 AM To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] How to highlight the Net in different colors in 99SE If you select Tools|Preferences then the Display tab, there's a checkbox for 'Use Net Color For Highlight'. To set the net colours, on the 'Browse PCB' tab select 'Nets' on the dropdown. Scroll to the required net and click the Edit button. This brings up a Net Properties dialog where you can set the net colour. Once this is done, select both nets and the tracks will be highlighted in their own colours. Note that the highlight colour is the same for all layers, so not every 'near miss' will be genuine but it does help track them down. Regards, Andy Gulliver -Original Message- From: Tony Karavidas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 February 2004 21:59 To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Subject: Re: [PEDA] How to highlight the Net in different colors in 99SE You can't because there is only one highlight color. If you had DXP you could filter by the two nets, such as (Net = 'A5') OR (Net = 'D0') and using the masking feature, these two nets are shows very clearly. Tony -Original Message- From: Adeel Malik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 5:44 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] How to highlight the Net in different colors in 99SE Hi All, I have a populated board which has two nets shorted to each other during assembly. I want to view both of the nets with different colors in Protel 99SE PCB document, so that I can locate the potential areas where the two nets are in close proximity. Can some one tell me how to view the two nets with different colors to solve the afore-mentioned problem in Protel 99SE ? Thanks, ADEEL MALIK -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Placing Components on top of each other
most of us turn off component clearance check for a number of good reasons, this among them Dennis Saputelli Trent Bates wrote: I am relatively new to Protel so this is probably an easy question for you guys. I am using Protel 99SE How do I place parts on top of one another? For example I want to place a 0805 resistor underneath a Radio module on the same side of the board. Physically there is space but in the Rules, the Component Distance Constraint will not let me. I know that Multilayer Check will allow me to place a surface mount part underneath a through hole part if it is on the other side of the board but I want it on the same side of the board. I know the answer is obvious but I can't find it. Trent Bates -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] How to highlight the Net in different colors in 99SE
but you can make the nets different colors you just can't change the highlight color which i think is what he wanted just double click the net in browse PCB Dennis Saputelli Tony Karavidas wrote: You can't because there is only one highlight color. If you had DXP you could filter by the two nets, such as (Net = 'A5') OR (Net = 'D0') and using the masking feature, these two nets are shows very clearly. Tony -Original Message- From: Adeel Malik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 5:44 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] How to highlight the Net in different colors in 99SE Hi All, I have a populated board which has two nets shorted to each other during assembly. I want to view both of the nets with different colors in Protel 99SE PCB document, so that I can locate the potential areas where the two nets are in close proximity. Can some one tell me how to view the two nets with different colors to solve the afore-mentioned problem in Protel 99SE ? Thanks, ADEEL MALIK -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel - server problems
norton antivirus ? ds Dom Bragge wrote: I'm having a few probs with my setup here just wanted to bounce the symptoms off you for any suggestions I could follow up on. I am running 99SEsp6 XP am connected to a network. History: I had My Documents mapped to the H: drive (on a server) instead of my local machine for safety sake ( making backups simple). The problem with that is there is often some sort of lag when I save a (say 3meg) Protel database. Instead of taking 1sec, like when I save on my local disk, it *sometimes* takes nearly 60seconds onto the H drive. Sometimes it has been almost instantaneous. This doesn't seem to be related to network traffic, more like waiting for something to timeout, as I can send a 10meg file to from the same H drive it does that smartly. I only have delay probs with Protel saving no other program. Can anyone give a hint of what might be happening here? Have you seen anything like this? -- Regards, Dom Dom Bragge, CID MIEEE | Silverbrook Research PL, PO Box 207 Snr PCB Layout Engr| Balmain NSW 2041, AUSTRALIA Ph +61-2-9818-6633xt163| [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is sent using PostCast Server Professional Trial: http://www.postcastserver.com/ -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This message is sent using PostCast Server Professional Trial: http://www.postcastserver.com/
Re: [PEDA] Protel - server problems
we don't have problems with the DDB over the network nor w/ compact on close except for the small time it takes to do the compact which is maybe roughly 10 secs on a 10M file Dennis Saputelli May Scott wrote: Are you using the DDB database format - if I remember rightly, it's an access database, which according to our network support guys are just tragic over networks... You mention it's when you save - have you selected the Compact database on save option? I know that function can be slow even on local drives at times... Thanks, Scott. __ Scott May -Original Message- From: Dom Bragge [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 5 February 2004 11:04 AM To: protel Subject: [PEDA] Protel - server problems I'm having a few probs with my setup here just wanted to bounce the symptoms off you for any suggestions I could follow up on. I am running 99SEsp6 XP am connected to a network. History: I had My Documents mapped to the H: drive (on a server) instead of my local machine for safety sake ( making backups simple). The problem with that is there is often some sort of lag when I save a (say 3meg) Protel database. Instead of taking 1sec, like when I save on my local disk, it *sometimes* takes nearly 60seconds onto the H drive. Sometimes it has been almost instantaneous. This doesn't seem to be related to network traffic, more like waiting for something to timeout, as I can send a 10meg file to from the same H drive it does that smartly. I only have delay probs with Protel saving no other program. Can anyone give a hint of what might be happening here? Have you seen anything like this? -- Regards, Dom Dom Bragge, CID MIEEE | Silverbrook Research PL, PO Box 207 Snr PCB Layout Engr| Balmain NSW 2041, AUSTRALIA Ph +61-2-9818-6633xt163| [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is sent using PostCast Server Professional Trial: http://www.postcastserver.com/ The information in this e-mail together with any attachments is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any form of review, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this e-mail message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, you are asked to inform the sender as quickly as possible and delete this message and any copies of this message from your computer and/or your computer system network. -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This message is sent using PostCast Server Professional Trial: http://www.postcastserver.com/
Re: [PEDA] TO-220 4th pin?
re 99SE we use the 4th pin approach, then you don't have this issue with the DRC (losing the manual net assignmnet) on DB conns we have 27 pins for a DB25 etc on BNCs we have 4 pins (3 gnds) we stack up the gnd pins in the schm lib and hide the pin numbers for 2 of them this makes the schematics prettier when you wire to the stacked up pins you get an autojunction which is the tip off as to what is going on never had any problem with this approachs Dennis Saputelli Tony Karavidas wrote: I do that all the time. The hole for the TO-220 tab is the hole that will be in the board. You don't need to place another 'free' hole. My lay-flat TO-220 pad is defined as pad number 0 and is 0.125 so I can use a machine screw and nut to hold it down. The area below it is part of my GND polygon pour. I manually connect this PAD0 to the GND net. To expose the copper, I place a fill on the Top Solder mask layer and it's usually the size of the tab and the body (helps if the back of the body is metal and not plastic) This will DRC properly because of the manual net assignment, however the thing to watch is when you do an UpdatePCB from the schematic. It will try and generate a macro to remove U?_PAD0 from net GND. Just delete that macro and continue. -Original Message- From: Dom Bragge [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 9:23 PM To: protel Subject: [PEDA] TO-220 4th pin? I just would like to ask a question about how you handle TO-220 footprints ( the like)... I have the three (electrical) pin device, that's fine. I'm placing the T)-220's flat on the board. What if I want to (selectively) put copper on the top layer under the TO-220 have a suitable soldermask antipad? This could aid in cooling without resorting to an actual heatsink. How should I best do that? Do I place on the board a free pad, rectangle, with a hole the same size as the hole for the TO-220 tab? Seems a bit ugly, two holes etc etc but it should probably give me the SMask opening. Do I make a 4pin lib part, have a 4th pin on the footprint being the large hole add a polygon connected to that net? I suppose I'll have to add an opening for the SMask on the TO-220 footprint as well. What say you? -- Regards, Dom 99SESP6 Dom Bragge, CID MIEEE | Silverbrook Research PL, PO Box 207 Snr PCB Layout Engr| Balmain NSW 2041, AUSTRALIA Ph +61-2-9818-6633xt163| [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Leaving Protel
why don't you keep us posted once in a while about how you like it, ups downs vs. protel etc. see ya Dennis Saputelli Tim Fifield wrote: Hi All, This is my last week with this company, and I'm going to be learning OrCad starting Monday at my new job. I just wanted to take a minute to thank everybody on this forum who has helped me over the past 3 years with Protel. It's been a great learning experience! Thanks again! gains in quality come from meticulous attention to detail and every step in the manufacturing process must be done as carefully as possible, not as quickly as possible -David Packard Tim Fifield, CET International Rectifier - Automotive PS. If anybody knows of any similar forums or websites for OrCad please let me know. -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Antwort: Autorouter
so does the Electra router do fan outs that are nice so that you don't have to do them manually? Dennis Saputelli Mike Reagan wrote: Emanuel, I forgot to mention you can also use the layer assignment in classes. This also works well. I have found this be hard to set in Spectra. Mike Reagan -Original Message- From: Emanuel Zimmermann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:03 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Antwort: Antwort: Autorouter Mike Thanks for this detailed answer. It seems that I have to try the classes trick to get design rules easier to specctra. I was not aware of this - currently we work with manually edited .rul files. Emanuel --- MPL AG www.mpl.ch Emanuel Zimmermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Manager RD Phone: +41 56 483'34'34 Taefernstrasse 20 Fax: +41 56 493'30'20 CH-5405 Daettwil --- edsi [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb am 21.01.2004 14:16:46: Emanuel We also suspect Protel is at fault for the 28 mil holes. I think it is a default in Protel setup. As far as High Speed design rules, You will need to stick with spectra for now, since Electra does not support differential pairs of matched lengths. I did not try blind and buried vias, but I did use prerouted via in pad. Electra was cleaner since it let these connections alone and I did not have to create any forget commands. We also tested the BUS command on both routers. The test board was a simple backplane with identical connectors on same Grid. Spectra was slightly better however, neither Electra or Spectra routing would be acceptable with this command. One thing we did noticesince both routers use a manhattan topology to place traces, On large busses, Electra has very few loops. It sticks to the floorplan very well. I have a tendency to use the limit way command on most of my designs. This forces the router to lay traces parrallel to each other on the same layer. This increases the density of the routing. Limit way is a little tighter on Spectra. I ran tests on both routers, using limit way then ran test without limit way. In both cases, Electra managed 500-700 less vias out of 7800. What I was most impressed with was that it left the locked preroutes tollally alone. Honestly, this is the first router that this worked with. If you think Spectra is leaving them alone, look closly at your design. On some occasions it place traces either over or around your preroutes. The only way to avoid this is to create forget classes. Here is the way the classes and DSN file works in Protel. Protel does not export classes. I wish it would. If you want to create widths lets say for DATA D0-D7, created a classs called DAT0_7, then create and invidual width rule for that class. When Protel exports the DSN file , it will assign an INDIVIDUAL rule to the nets in the class. The same applies to via type, toplogy, max via, and clearance. Protel extracts the class and breaks it down to net. That is perfectly fine ...perhaps cumbersome but it works. You still may want to look at this router. ELecta is working on adding High Speed rules Mike Reagan EDSI Frederick MD -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
what you say is true (good products ruined) but it is too late in other words this is the M.O. of biz today so wishing it were otherwise makes no difference when you consider: 1] more than a year has passed since Situs was released 2] it is 'still under developement' by their own recent words 3] they have never produced a usuable router *of their own making* i stand by my idle wish BTW - re #3 i find the 99SE router (which is a direct descendant of Neruoroute which they had purchased) to be usuable for many needs ranging from simple to moderate it is certainly not very SMD aware and is certainly not up to today's technology, but how could it be? it's old remember TRAXSTAR ? heh heh that was an in house router by protel a million years ago i still have the dongle it never did anything useful and wasn't real cheap by those day's standards during the 2.8 windows era their router wasn't worth anything either they didn't even claim it was the router of choice at that time was from Masstek can't recall the name right now i still have the dongles so i hope this shows the reasoning behind my thinking on this matter Dennis Saputelli Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: if it is what it seems to be i will repeat that i think that altium should just buy them and integrate it after all that was neuroute's biz strategy Be careful what you wish for - you might get it. Seriously, when a firm with a great product gets bought by another firm, it usually has detrimental results on the product that made the former great. I think I can count on one hand the number of real world examples of where a buyout actually improved the product or service. The business landscape is littered with the remains of once good products and companies that were ruined by a buyout. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter no joke i know it is a tall order (big wish) but why route a big board all 4/4 (or 5/5) when only a little area needs it? i guess you would just define a rectangle and then outside that it would shift gears BTW my idle wish aside, mike seems quite excited by this router and he knows this business well if it is what it seems to be i will repeat that i think that altium should just buy them and integrate it after all that was neuroute's biz strategy Dennis Saputelli Igor Gmitrovic wrote: And add 6/6 in between to smooth the transition. Are you sure you are joking here? :) Igor -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 11:48 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter $3K for the full version seems quite reasonable if it will do what spectra does now we just need a router that will do 4/4 around BGAs and then switch to 5/5 or 8/8 outside that region! -:) ds edsi wrote: Joe and Dennis, This company has no affiliation with Altium. Yes I agree ELECTRA is the routing solution for all of Altium's products. Dennis, it will do BGAs, it will do it all. When importing back from the router, it exhibits the same chararteristics as Spectra. Every via is converted to 28 mils. Double hits are common on Vias, but this is a minor problem compared to the quality of routing. The full version will set you back another 3K. I probably can save that if I can buy PCB ala carte from Protel since I have no use for their other add ons. Mike Reagan EDSI Frederick MD -- Original Message -- From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:28:34 -0800 what does it cost ? how does it like BGAs? does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel bug? maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ? ds edsi wrote: Hello All, -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110
Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
what does it cost ? how does it like BGAs? does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel bug? maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ? ds edsi wrote: Hello All, I wish to share my excitement on new autorouter for Protel. The router is from konekt.com, named ELECTRA. Electra is available in several configurations, but I wish to share that I spent a considerable amount of time baselining this software. The router accepts DSN files, and is very similar in operation to Spectra less a few high speed commands. As far as routing speed, it is slightly slower than Spectra, but the accuracy of the traces are cleaner. On three separate tests of the same design, Electra was consistent with 500- 600 less vias. It was also consistent on all of my track lengths. The test board had 1984 components, so this was not a trivial routing test. The router also observed my protected traces. I can not speak highly enough of this product, and no I do not have a vested interest in it Download their demo. I highly recommend it Mike Reagan EDSI Frederick MD -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
$3K for the full version seems quite reasonable if it will do what spectra does now we just need a router that will do 4/4 around BGAs and then switch to 5/5 or 8/8 outside that region! -:) ds edsi wrote: Joe and Dennis, This company has no affiliation with Altium. Yes I agree ELECTRA is the routing solution for all of Altium's products. Dennis, it will do BGAs, it will do it all. When importing back from the router, it exhibits the same chararteristics as Spectra. Every via is converted to 28 mils. Double hits are common on Vias, but this is a minor problem compared to the quality of routing. The full version will set you back another 3K. I probably can save that if I can buy PCB ala carte from Protel since I have no use for their other add ons. Mike Reagan EDSI Frederick MD -- Original Message -- From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:28:34 -0800 what does it cost ? how does it like BGAs? does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel bug? maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ? ds edsi wrote: Hello All, -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
no joke i know it is a tall order (big wish) but why route a big board all 4/4 (or 5/5) when only a little area needs it? i guess you would just define a rectangle and then outside that it would shift gears BTW my idle wish aside, mike seems quite excited by this router and he knows this business well if it is what it seems to be i will repeat that i think that altium should just buy them and integrate it after all that was neuroute's biz strategy Dennis Saputelli Igor Gmitrovic wrote: And add 6/6 in between to smooth the transition. Are you sure you are joking here? :) Igor -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 11:48 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter $3K for the full version seems quite reasonable if it will do what spectra does now we just need a router that will do 4/4 around BGAs and then switch to 5/5 or 8/8 outside that region! -:) ds edsi wrote: Joe and Dennis, This company has no affiliation with Altium. Yes I agree ELECTRA is the routing solution for all of Altium's products. Dennis, it will do BGAs, it will do it all. When importing back from the router, it exhibits the same chararteristics as Spectra. Every via is converted to 28 mils. Double hits are common on Vias, but this is a minor problem compared to the quality of routing. The full version will set you back another 3K. I probably can save that if I can buy PCB ala carte from Protel since I have no use for their other add ons. Mike Reagan EDSI Frederick MD -- Original Message -- From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:28:34 -0800 what does it cost ? how does it like BGAs? does it still convert all the via holes to 28 or is that a protel bug? maybe altium should give up and just buy the ELECTRA company ? ds edsi wrote: Hello All, -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Autorouter
4 mil line / 4 mil space below 5/5 price and flakiness go up Dennis Saputelli Thomas wrote: Please excuse my ignorance, what are 4/4, 5/5 etc...? -Original Message- From: Igor Gmitrovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 21 January 2004 12:25 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Autorouter And add 6/6 in between to smooth the transition. Are you sure you are joking here? :) Igor -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] P99SE ONLINE DRC stopped working help!
help! this might be something REALLY stupid but i am banging my head ... anyone know why ONLINE DRC might have stopped working for me? here is punchlist 99SE online drc checkbox IS on drc 'layer' is on various rules are set up 'normally' and enabled obstacle is 'avoid' as i manually route with PT i can draw right through all the wrong pads at all the wrong clearances if i run the batch DRC it correctly shows the errors and lights them up bright green it's just that during manual routing the online DRC is not working anymore BTW, if i turn push obstacle on that works, but if i turn it back to avoid obstacle it does NOT avoid if i change a rule and push CLOSE the online DRC does not run as it usually does something has changed radically here -- stop --- poke around some more, reboot etc same prob i opened another DDB, no probs the online DRC works! (first DDB still open) now i am getting worried about my data other boards in same original DDB, same problem, no online drc i made a new fresh DDB and copied the pcb file into it, no go, same prob i deleted all rules, no help Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] P99SE ONLINE DRC stopped working help!
well to respond to myself somewhat embarassededly (it was late and i thought i was missing something stupid) i didn't look at the ONLINE 'TAB' 'problem' solved ds Dennis Saputelli wrote: help! this might be something REALLY stupid but i am banging my head ... anyone know why ONLINE DRC might have stopped working for me? here is punchlist 99SE online drc checkbox IS on drc 'layer' is on various rules are set up 'normally' and enabled obstacle is 'avoid' as i manually route with PT i can draw right through all the wrong pads at all the wrong clearances if i run the batch DRC it correctly shows the errors and lights them up bright green it's just that during manual routing the online DRC is not working anymore BTW, if i turn push obstacle on that works, but if i turn it back to avoid obstacle it does NOT avoid if i change a rule and push CLOSE the online DRC does not run as it usually does something has changed radically here -- stop --- poke around some more, reboot etc same prob i opened another DDB, no probs the online DRC works! (first DDB still open) now i am getting worried about my data other boards in same original DDB, same problem, no online drc i made a new fresh DDB and copied the pcb file into it, no go, same prob i deleted all rules, no help Dennis Saputelli -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel 99SE Explorer file type icons disappearing
i wonder if the icons are handled by windows i certainly see flaky icon behavior by windows re repair i have never had it do anything useful (or harmful) for me Dennis Saputelli Jeff Adolphs wrote: Have you ever had the Protel 99SE Explorer file type icons disappear? I have tried a fresh install of the software and using DDB repair and still the file type icons disappear. Is this normal? I find it disconcerting and when it happens I wonder if the Database needs repaired. BTW how do you know when a Database needs repaired? Jeff Adolphs Westerville, OH -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] P99SE ONLINE DRC stopped working help!
you're right that restarting protel often fixes things sometimes it even takes a cold boot, but not too often on another topic anyone notice that Norton AV has gotten VERY cranky just lately ? (result of recent live updates i assume) we just had a serious of serious constant blue screen deaths everything *was* be running perfectly previously was solved by completely removing NAV (no simple matter) and putting on the corp edition removing NAV by using the add/remove in no way completely removes it i had to get an outsider to come in and spend some time with a utility and then manually deleting tons of registry keys before the corp edition would install properly Dennis Saputelli Steve Wiseman wrote: 09/01/2004 21:28:32, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, the fact that another ddb has DRC working pretty much rules out a program glitch. Hmm - I still find that stopping restarting Protel often fixes things when all other approaches have failed and I'm thinking this makes absolutely no sense. This may be one of those times... Steve -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] BGA Tenting/Specifications
re SE99 we tent them you want to do this to improve yield then place free pads on bottom side soldermask to allow probing generally i think plugging is to be avoided for various reasons (assuming by 'plugging' we are referring to put some material in the hole) in DXP you can make top and bottom solder masks different from each other Dennis Saputelli Michael Biggs wrote: Can get I a few opinions about how you guys handle BGA components in your layouts? Do you generally tent (using tenting in Protel99SE via properties) the dog-bone vias that branch off of each BGA pad to prevent solder thieving or specify in your specifications to Plug top side vias. There may be other ideas and I'm sure the responses will vary on the assembly methods. Generally I see a reflow then wave on these mixed technology PWA I am prototyping. Thanks in advance. -MB -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel 99SE ERC
i don't think 99SE ERC will catch this i did look into it at that time, i will look again later Dennis Saputelli Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: At 09:42 PM 12/19/2003, Dennis Saputelli wrote: i once had a power port symbol +12V2 connected to one end of a resistor the rest of the board was all +12V for that power and i didn't notice it good 'ol cut and paste - it wasn't my fault! :) anyway the resistor didn't go anywhere on one end and in the usual mad proto rush it was shipped because the DRC was happy DRC would be happy, but a properly configured ERC would not. I always have ERC report unconnected pins, and I nail them all down: if there is a deliberately unconnected pin, I place a No-ERC directive on it, which from then on suppresses the ERC report. does DXP catch this ? Since 99SE would, I assume DXP also would. BTW, this is not a 'single pin net' since the netlist shows 2 items: +12V2 R112-2 the 'isolated' power port counts kind of like a 'pin' No, I don't think so, unless ERC is misconfigured. Normally, writing here, I'd check this, but time is short today. But even if ERC will detect such single pin nets, there is still a problem; what if there had been, say, a capacitor also connected to +12V2? DXP is not, I am sure, going to catch this. But there are procedures that could use 99SE/DXP tools to make it easy to find such problems. But you still have to remember to look for them. i poked around a bit in 99SE and couldn't find a way to flag it yes manually inspecting the netlist would have caught it and truthfully isn't very hard to scan through even a big net list for this sort of thing I used to always run an NC pin list from PCB, it was part of the Tango DRC options. A resistor appearing in that list would be a big red flag. It can be a very good idea to look at a list of nets (not a full net list but a list of net names) to see if there are any oddities, like DATA1 DATAl (Yes, those are different! If they weren't, they wouldn't show up as two entries in the list, would they? A really sophisticated ERC/DRC would generate a warning if there were such similar net names) and for the record ... at one time i may have been in the DXP-basher camp (some time ago) at this point since i have not used DXP much i don't think it would be objective or fair for me to bash i hope i have not lately presented such an attitude i would prefer to be categorized as simply a non-DXP user who is very reluctant to 'move on' based on what i saw during a few brief forays when 2004 ships i intend to give it another go Since I'm exploring DXP now, I'm thinking of writing a 99SE - DXP training document, that focuses on informing an experienced 99SE user how to move to DXP -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Power supply pins
are you referring to DXP ?
i don't see this prob in 99SE
the topic of power pins being hidden or not and separate parts for
containing power pins only has been hashed over quite a bit here
my 2 cents FWIW
keep the power pins right on logic BLOCK type symbols
with the rest of the pins
these days with so many different core voltages and possibly
separate isolated voltages of the same magnitude it's just plain
easier to control and see what is going on
rather than having to hunt around for a separate section and
then match up the designator, etc.
as to clutter it hardly matters to me since these chips are becoming
porcupines anyway
the messy exception i make to the above statement is for op amps
and maybe something like a QUAD NAND package which from this perspective
is about like an op amp
it's just so annoying to have the power pins jump around and have to
clear the
space, exp. for the byp caps
i think in this case the argument for a power section (aka 'part') makes
sense
BTW
in my practice i am finding that producing a nice looking
and pretty schematic to be less and less important
i.e., once the whole thing is debugged and in production
i seem to have ever decreasing need to look at the schematic
things are so fast moving that the bd is obsolete or junk
before you need to fix it (or so reliable it never comes up)
if it doesn't work on test get another assembler or
fix the process, there just isn't enough time or margin
to debug troubleshoot at the schematic level
remember when they used to repair carburetors?
now they just bolt a new one on
likewise i seem to be seeing less and less published
schematics which would remove another reason for making
a pretty schematic
obviously others will have different needs and perspectives
and i would like to make perfect looking and clear schematic as
much as the next designer but sometimes a bag of net
labels is enough to get the job done
Dennis Saputelli
Laurie Biddulph wrote:
Hello and thank you for your extensive response.
I do apologise for not getting back to you earlier but have been fairly busy.
I think it is generally good practise to always have EVERY pin exposed even power
supply pins but I do feel that putting the power pins off to one side is a neater
way than having as part of a main component symbol. The only problem I have found so
far, and I can't explain why, is that putting the power parts on to a separate page
resulted in Protel wanting to add a complete extra chip to the pcb when I did an
update.
I will study your other comments but am often amazed at how much extra work one has
to do sometimes to achieve a basic feature - not bad for ASU$9000!
Best Regards
Laurie Biddulph
http://www.elby-designs.com
- Original Message -
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
To: Protel EDA Forum
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Power supply pins
{this message bounced first time, outgoing mail server couldn't find
techservinc.com)
At 06:10 AM 12/10/2003, Laurie Biddulph wrote:
I hate having power supply pins as part of schematic component symbols
(especially opamps and logic gate chips). I prefer to create an additional
`component part' in the chip purely for the power supply pins. This makes
it easier to assign decoupling components to the chip as well as reduce
clutter in the main part of the schematic.
This is a very legitimate way of dealing with the problem, as is having the
power pins be part of the symbol. Hidden pins have restricted application,
some say that they should never be used, but that goes too far. If you have
a digital design with standard logic, hiding the power pins may be acceptable.
However, if a technician is going to have any difficulty later figuring out
which pin on a part is, for example, ground, it is better to be explicit.
Making symbols with power pins as a separate part of the symbol, while it
is a little more complex -- in creating the symbols -- is really the best
of both worlds. All the power parts can be placed on a page -- or part of a
schematic page -- which shows power nets and bypass cap allocations. This
leaves the rest of the schematic for signal flow and logic, and not having
to deal with power connections and bypass on those pages saves both time
and space, and results in a schematic that is easier to read. The only
negative I can think of is that in a split-supply design the power
assignments are not necessarily on the same page so an error in assignment
might be less obvious.
I consider the improvement in general readability to outweight that; it
just requires a little more caution, since, so far, there is no ERC for this.
(If component classes could be set up in schematic and assigned power
supply classes, ERC would be possible, where a component was assigned the
incorrect power supply, i.e., an analog part gets a digital supply
Re: [PEDA] What could we expect in next Altium EDA tools?
So Hamid, are you going to give Protel 2004 a spin when it is released? it appears that the PCB side will essentially be DXP SP3 and as Ivan has asked have you identified a competitive alternative for you and your customers? we have 2 seats here and also have yet to embrace DXP but at some point i guess we will need to either jump ship or bite the bullet (hey! 2 cliches in one sentence) the years of work in the libraries form a sort of trap, i wouldn't relish having to recreate all those parts TIA for any info Dennis Saputelli Hamid A. Wasti wrote: Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: What did you tell them to buy instead of DXP? Could they still buy 99SE, or did you recommend some other brand? When we do large product development projects for our clients, we deliver the board files only in Protel format. If the client wants to make changes in house with our support, they need to purchase Protel and we make a commitment to teach support them. Over the years we have been directly responsible for the sale of several seats this way and indirect responsible for the sale of several more because after acquiring in-house expertise, the company decided to increase the number of seats. As for the canceled sales, we struck a deal with one client for them to teach us their CAD system. In another case, the client is still trying to decide what CAD system to get, as we have made it clear that we will not be supporting DXP and understandably they do not want to buy a dead end product like 99SE I don't mean to sound negative, but these issues are important, and I'm not going to get excited over Nexar and LiveDesign until I see answers to these questions. Those issues are indeed important, but there is a more fundamental issue: Will the product actually work, or will it be a waste of your time and money? Considering Altium's recent history, you would be lucky if you get the point of actually having to realistically worry about the issues you mentioned in your post. Hamid -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Solder mask...
my experience is the same as John's on this issue i.e. do open it up we once shipped a board to fab and forgot to do this they called us up and advised that we do and used a descriptive term (opening up the mask) which i can't recollect it wasn't 'block' but i can't recall it, something like 'moat' or 'bar'? any one know the common term ? Dennis Saputelli John A. Ross [RSDTV] wrote: -Original Message- From: Tom Robinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:26 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] Solder mask... Is it ok to block open the solder mask on gull-wing i.c.'s with .4mm AND .5mm pitches? It seems to get enough web in between the pads to stick will cause a LPI registration thats too tight, with possible smearing. And if you make the pads themselves too narrow -- thats another problem. Tom I always block open the pads on these pitches. It is not so easy to get a manufacturer to get SM registration right at these tolerances although it is possible. Most quick turn boards I have had to take as 'free issue' parts to assemble, which have not blocked off these areas, I have had quality issues with the finished joints around these fine pitch pads. I have never had an issue with blocking them open, biggest solder mask issue I have ever had was when the SM thickness to finished pad height differential was too much (SM height was bigger than finished pad by a lot) and we had gasketing issues from the paste screen to the pad, causing problems like, paste bleeding out on the PCB side of the screen, some shorts, failed 3d inspection after print cycle, loose solder ball symptoms and aperture blockages, with our MPM printer having to make undue clean cycles between prints. Also undue print down force had to be applied to squeegee blades, increasing wear and decreasing accuracy. Never had solder ball or short issues as long as the board is printed correctly and the oven specifically profiled to suit your board. (also optimise paste volumee, height, reductions...) John -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel 99SE ERC
ok, point taken, thanks for the encouragement, keep 'em coming how about this one: i once had a power port symbol +12V2 connected to one end of a resistor the rest of the board was all +12V for that power and i didn't notice it good 'ol cut and paste - it wasn't my fault! :) anyway the resistor didn't go anywhere on one end and in the usual mad proto rush it was shipped because the DRC was happy does DXP catch this ? BTW, this is not a 'single pin net' since the netlist shows 2 items: +12V2 R112-2 the 'isolated' power port counts kind of like a 'pin' i poked around a bit in 99SE and couldn't find a way to flag it yes manually inspecting the netlist would have caught it and truthfully isn't very hard to scan through even a big net list for this sort of thing and for the record ... at one time i may have been in the DXP-basher camp (some time ago) at this point since i have not used DXP much i don't think it would be objective or fair for me to bash i hope i have not lately presented such an attitude i would prefer to be categorized as simply a non-DXP user who is very reluctant to 'move on' based on what i saw during a few brief forays when 2004 ships i intend to give it another go Dennis Saputelli Tony Karavidas wrote: There are so many reasons voiced as to why to not move to DXP. Here is one reason TO MOVE to DXP. It now checks for that error. Tony -Original Message- From: Website Visitor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 6:29 AM To: proteledaforum Subject: [PEDA] Protel 99SE ERC This is a little hard to explain, but here goes... I am running the ERC on a schematic in Protel 99SE. It's interesting that there isn't a rule for determining whether a port has a mating counterpart. The Orcad ERC has a place where it will verify that all off-page connectors have mating counterparts. The only thing Protel 99 verifies is that the port is connected to something electrical. If you had a port that was supposed to match a port on another page, but you mispelled one of them, had a space in one of them, etc. you wouldn't know it by using the ERC. That seems really strange to me! Posted from Association web site by: Travis -- ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. Tel: 415-647-0480 EXT 107 2851 21st StreetFax: 415-647-3003 San Francisco, CA 94110 www.integratedcontrolsinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Utility to count SMD/Through-hole components
this doesn't show component count of each type which is what started this thread and which is a cost driver for assembly rather than bare bd fab Dennis Saputelli Tony Karavidas wrote: I agree with you. It's just to get them close either with stuffing the board, or making the PCB. Who cares if a surface mount part has a couple through hole alignment holes? They are holes nevertheless and require drilling, so they need to be counted as through holes. Here's a sample from one of my recent boards. I consider this to have 6+(750-608)+190=338 through holes and 608 SMT pads. 6 of the through hole pads are not plated. What's the big deal? Layer PairVias Top Layer - Bottom Layer 190 Total 190 Non-Plated Hole Size PadsVias 125mil (3.175mm) 6 0 Total6 0 Plated Hole Size PadsVias 0mil (0mm) 608 0 28mil (0.7112mm)25 190 32mil (0.8128mm) 6 0 35mil (0.889mm) 24 0 40mil (1.016mm) 30 0 43mil (1.0922mm)19 0 60mil (1.524mm) 4 0 80mil (2.032mm) 18 0 90mil (2.286mm) 16 0 Total 750 190 -Original Message- From: Steve Wiseman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 3:08 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Utility to count SMD/Through-hole components 19/11/2003 21:45:18, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, another, perhaps more practical and safer alternative would be to generate three lists: SMT, through-hole, and possibly mixed. The large majority of components would orginarily not be ambiguous. Since this is all to generate a highly suspect quote from a board- stuffing shop, such care is almost certainly wasted. I can't believe that a quote based on a QFP being costed the same as an 0805 is anything but budgetary... Sounds to me like sorting the BOM based on footprint will get the answer as accurately as is needed for this... Steve -- Dennis Saputelli = send only plain text please! - no HTML == ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. www.integratedcontrolsinc.com 2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480 San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647-3003 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Exciting news for all users of Protel DXP and nVisage DXP
yes, it is rather 'exciting' isn't it? guess it depends on what you mean by 'exciting' i think it all smells pretty bad too unfortunately it is highly consistent with their development history, although their business practices have morphed a bit i must say though that for someone like myself who was not happy with the bugs and shortcomings which could have been easily addressed but were left in 99SE, 99SE's makeover as DXP, the falsehoods propagated about the Situs router, etc etc. i am beginning to think that i have only myself to blame for not having gone elsewhere long ago however, i will not join any class action action as i am opposed to them as a matter of principle i wonder if we would be better off if Altium had stuck by their Total Care or whatever it was called Maybe they wouldn't have to chase new seats so hard. (idle and pointless speculation here, sorry) acad offers some interesting parallels: they added some features (forget catchy name) which was some sort of interactive internet crap for each of the last few upgrades the first thing i had to do was turn off most of the NEW internet related features and helpers As i understand it (I have not upgraded to ACAD2004) ACAD2004 is a very compelling upgrade though! :) :) they changed some colors of some menus they made the license much more restrictive they removed SAVE AS release 14 (which is probably what most people use) Dennis Saputelli JaMi Smith wrote: What the #$%@ is going on now ? ? ? Can anyone out there understand any of this, or is this just more Protel / Altium Jabberwake. On one hand it looks like they are trying to make a case for making a new product out of something that they were supposed to give us as part of DXP and nVisage to begin with, and on the other hand it seems that they are going to end up trying to charge us money to even fix (oops, they will never fix it - so I guess that the more correct word would be finish) DXP SP3.5 (build 18550372). Maybe I just need to get a good nights sleep before I try and read this thing again. On the other hand, maybe we just need to nuke Australia - well maybe not the whole Country, but at least Protel / Altium. I think it may once again be time to wake the sleeping giant of customer / user opinion, but this time, unlike before when Altium supposedly abandoned ATS (only to re-clothe it as so clearly shown below), maybe we need to do it in a much more coordinated manner, that guarentees the outcome in writing. And what the #$%@ is Protel 2004. Could this possibly be Service Pack 7 ? ? ? What is with these guys. Is there something about all of the blood pooling in their brains as they stand upside down on the bottom of the world, or what ? ? ? Protel 99 SE is still incomplete, and needs some patches ! ! ! DXP / nVisage has been lost in la la land for months and months and months, and still can't route a board to completion ! ! ! Does anyone else out there besides me think that it is about time that Protel / Altium needs to come up with some real good answers. Maybe it is just about time to call a lawyer or two, and get a good class action lawsuit going here for SP7, SP8, SP9 and the Source Code for 99SE, and not only a full refund for DXP, but also some very very large punitive damages to cover the purchase of and retraining on some other EDA Software as a real solution to our EDA problems and woes. Needless to say, this is posted here, and not in the DXP Technical Forum, so I don't get banned once again for speaking the truth and seeking honest answers to honest questions. Seriously, I am not just writing this to provoke an answer from Ian or Abd or Tony, and in fact I beg you guys not to take this off topic and run it all downhill into the gutter as has been done in the past. We who are DXP Licensees have spent a very very long time waiting for Protel / Altium to fix the major problems in DXP, and have had no response to many many questions regarding the status of DXP, only now to find out that they have apparently not been busy trying to fix the problems with DXP, but coming up with something new for which they will ask us for more money. For those who did not get a copy, please read the original announcement below. The one that really really really has me fuming is the statement Updates and enhancements that were under development as part of Service Pack 3 for nVisage and Protel will not be released for the DXP versions, but have now been integrated into the nVisage 2004 and Protel 2004 releases. Protel / Altium - I don't think that you really know what you are getting yourself in for, and you might want to rethink your whole approach about selling your customer base a non functional system, and then turning around and saying that you are not going to fix it. JaMi Smith @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ - Original Message - From: Phil Loughhead [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [PEDA] Utility to count SMD/Through-hole components
are you speaking of the schematic BOM or the PCB BOM ? either way there is no way (that i know of) to automatically distinguish an SMD part from a TH part perhaps if the schematic part had a part field filled out SMD or TH it would be a help since to build your bd you will need to construct a detailed BOM anyway it shouldn't be too much work to go through and tally them up Dennis Saputelli Adeel Malik wrote: Hi All, The Protel 99SE has a Report Generating Mechanism for BOM creation. I want an add-on utility or a process script that can separately count the number of SMD and Through-hole components. Can someone comment on it ?. Regards, ADEEL MALIK -- Dennis Saputelli = send only plain text please! - no HTML == ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. www.integratedcontrolsinc.com 2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480 San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647-3003 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Another UF found - update
yeah i agree (although i haven't seen this particular bug) 'just say no' to the protel text editor it's not very good and too idiosyncratic anyway and yes UltraEdit is the best! Dennis Saputelli Steve Wiseman wrote: 18/11/2003 20:35:57, Leo Potjewijd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just thought I'd mention it: updating the printer driver with the latest one from the HP website does not resolve the problem completely. The system no longer crashes, but the weird output is still there.. Yeah - I've seen this here. Waste of paper, isn't it (running into a Xerox NC20, Postscript - and, naturally, the duff print job makes it select the A3 tray, for maximum annoyance). These days, I just cut paste into Ultraedit, which behaves rather better... -- Dennis Saputelli = send only plain text please! - no HTML == ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. www.integratedcontrolsinc.com 2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480 San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647-3003 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Utility to count SMD/Through-hole components
smd pad count is usually wanted (for quote purposes) for test reasons (SMD pad count can be reckoned easily from BOARD INFORMATION report) drill hole count these days is usually not a factor unless holes per square inch exceed some very high densisty which is not typically encountered (possibly in very high volume it could be different) the reason is that the production throughput bottleneck is in the plating tanks not the drilling so nowdays i have found the quotes are almost strictly based on square inches BTW, a friend of mine recently visited a shop in China it was 100K+ square feet with 2 rows of drill machines extending as far as the eye could see the machines were running 24/7 for the last 2 years and were just starting to approach payoff of the drills re the SMD/TH part count ... i can't imagine that it would take more than a few minutes cruising through even a rough BOM to come up with numbers adequate for the purpose Dennis Saputelli Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: At 05:35 AM 11/19/2003, Leo Potjewijd wrote: At 19/11/2003 01:09, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote (among other things): [a list of assumptions] I must say that these statements are not entirely correct: many SMD connectors need holes in the PCB for positioning or letting the mating part through. I regularly use a http://www.avx.com/docs/Catalogs/6207.pdfFFC connector that has pegs for positioning and strain relief. You will need two non-plated holes in the PCB to accommodate that thing. First, what I wrote were presented as simplifying assumptions, not as necessary truths. Secondly, you need the holes, but you don't necessarily need a pad. Protel will allow you to use a via. However, there is no provision for an unplated via, so one might need to manually ensure that a via with hole size exceeding the diameter is not plated. This isn't very satisfactory, however, because it would involve modifying footprints just so that report generation would be a little easier. Better to generate reports for all three logical types (pure SMT, pure through-hole, mixed). Note, however, that there is an additional complication, which is that there can be a component which is neither SMT nor through-hole, it is a non-assembled device for accomplishing some purpose other than providing a place for assembly. It might be a test point, it might be a component with no holes whatever, representing something not fastened to the board but to, for example, an adjacent board, and one wants to place a dummy footprint and lock it in place to keep the space clear. The most likely reason the fab house asked for the pincounts is calculation of the bare PCB price (at least, my boardhouse does use this info for that purpose): holes need to be drilled, many different sizes and/or really small ones result in greater setup/machine/handling time. In electrical testing, SMD pads most likely need a different test setup: thru-hole pads can be accessed on both sides of te PCB while SMD pads can not, SMD on both sides will thus result in higher cost. The question was directly posed by Mr. Malik and it was explicitly about an add-on utility or a process script that can separately count the number of SMD and Through-hole components. It's not likely Mr. Malik was asking in response to a fabricator query, because fabricators have little need to know the number of surface pads; surface pads are merely copper features and openings in the solder mask; however, if the question was about pads, he asked the wrong question. It's easy to get a pad report, use Edit/Export to Spread. I do notice that Advanced Circuits asks about SMD pads in their instant quote form. Oddly enough, they *don't* ask about holes and the variety of hole sizes, which would have a larger effect on price, I'd think. However, I do recall a conversation in which a fabricator stated that holes have become so cheap to drill that they are not a substantial contributor to cost Mr. Malik, on the other hand, made another inquiry seeking recommendations for assembly houses, and I'd expect an assembler to need the information for a quotation; it's common to see figures of so many cents per SMT component and so many per through-hole component For this, the information would not need to be absolutely accurate, and the existence of a few ambiguous components would have little or no effect on the cost. -- Dennis Saputelli = send only plain text please! - no HTML == ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. www.integratedcontrolsinc.com 2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480 San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647-3003 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list
Re: [PEDA] State of PCB (aka EDA) tool business
interesting what is that in US$ ? at the 12 mil level double is a lot! good article, eh? ds Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: At 01:03 PM 11/1/2003, Dennis Saputelli wrote: I don't know how many people Altium has but these days $12 mil gross revenue is not a huge number for an international going enterprise true. But the revenue for Altium, estimated based on 3rd quarter 2003 annualized, is about double that. Still not huge. From the annual report. total revenue fiscal 2002 ending June 30, 2003, AU$46.75; though there was an after-tax loss of AU$7.0 million, they had a decent cash position and paid a dividend of AU$0.02 per share out of retained earnings. With a share price of about AU$0.58, that is a substantial dividend in these times. Altium may be able to sit at this level but it seems to me that a more likely scenario involves the ongoing dramas of swallow or be swallowed I have a sense that they are not eager to be purchased. They have a very strong asset to liability ratio, they don't seem to owe the company to anyone except the shareholders. Since they experienced sales growth in all their markets in the last year, in what might be difficult times, if they are going to be bought out, I think it would not be for cheap -- Dennis Saputelli = send only plain text please! - no HTML == ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. www.integratedcontrolsinc.com 2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480 San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647-3003 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] State of PCB (aka EDA) tool business
for those interested in such things... i just read a very interesting article in EETIMES magazine Oct 27 2003 (an actual paper printed copy) Gentrification hits pcb tools Among many other things they show a chart (source: Gartner Dataquest) TOP 20 pcb/MCM/hybrid software companies 1996 vs. 2002 http://img.cmpnet.com/eet/news/03/october/NF1293_TABLE.gif as you can see and as they also point out the gap between #3 and #4 in 2002 is HUGE You also will learn how the top vendors are doing their VeriBest :) to drive prices up and how there are no new entrants I don't know how many people Altium has but these days $12 mil gross revenue is not a huge number for an international going enterprise ominous sub headings Consolidation squeezes board tools also some interesting history re CCT Orcad acquisitions full article link http://www.eedesign.com/story/OEG20031027S0069 Altium may be able to sit at this level but it seems to me that a more likely scenario involves the ongoing dramas of swallow or be swallowed Dennis Saputelli = send only plain text please! - no HTML == ___ Integrated Controls, Inc. www.integratedcontrolsinc.com 2851 21st Streettel: 415-647-0480 San Francisco, CA 94110 fax: 415-647-3003 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
