Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 16 January 2014 16:26, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The computational metaphor in the sense of the brain works like the Intel CPU inside the box on your desk is clearly misleading, but the sense that a computer can in theory do everything your brain can do is almost certainly

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:12, Terren Suydam wrote: Right, and QTI isn't even much of a comfort in terms of avoiding your own death, as there are no guarantees about the quality of the surviving continuations. I remember Bruno saying once (paraphrasing) consciousness is a prison. Otto

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:14, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, (and Dan) When people die they vanish from existence. To believe otherwise may be comforting, but it's just superstition.. In your theory perhaps. But then my body is not Turing emulable. Comp must be false. There must be a living

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:28, freqflyer07281972 wrote: Wow, Liz, very sorry to hear about your friend. If you don't mind me asking (and if you do mind, simply ignore my question), if you magically just knew that the universe was in fact a large computation engine where all possibilities are

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And the answer is yes, he would know that, but not immediately. So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will not immediately see that he is in a simulation, but, unless you intervene repeatedly

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:44, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 10:29, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: condescending dismissal in 3... 2... 1... Teehee. Not a condescending dismissal in anyone

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on in the rogue simulation - the one where Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are infinite continuations from Glak's state(s)

Re: A different take on the ontological status of Math

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:03, Chris de Morsella wrote: Stephen -- I like how he derives the natural numbers from some basic set operations on an empty set. One question though how does the empty set itself arise. Arithmetic is equivalent to finite set theory (hereditary finite set theory,

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:11, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 4:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I am not convinced, as I tend to not believe in any primitive time and space, at least when I tend to believe in comp (of course I *know* nothing). QM is indeed reversible (in large part), but using this

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:49, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 10:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: This should be clearer, hopefully, when I translate probability in arithmetic. If Glak is Löbian, then it has the same physics than us What does same mean here. Same coupling constants?...same number

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on in the rogue simulation - the one where Glak emerges from an alternative-physics, as there are

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2014/1/16 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on in the rogue simulation - the one where Glak

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Jan 2014, at 23:30, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 10:27, freqflyer07281972 thismindisbud...@gmail.com wrote: I have a funny comic I think all of you will appreciate to one extent or another. I'm also curious as to your reaction regarding the status of questions versus answers:

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I tend not to consider that a brain is a digital computer. The most accurate analogy is that a brain is a _program_ made of different processes that run certain specific algorithms, some of them fixed and certain of them capable of learning by various methods. And finally some of them can execute

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 18:29, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Colin, Liz, What do you find wrong with what Dennett said? I didn't actually say I found anything wrong with it, just that I would expect him to want to drop the hard problem. I said that because he's wanted to for decades

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 00:12, Edgar L. Owen wrote: All, I want to try to state my model of how spacetime is created by quantum events more clearly and succinctly. Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. That does not exist. If everything is computational, I am

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 19:00, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.comwrote: Dear LizR, One thing that this line of thinking that I am pursuing implies, is that systems what have different computational capacities will have differing realities. The best analogy/toy model to explain this is

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 20:00, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 14:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You can do that (in fact it may have been done). You have two emitters with polarizers and a detector at which you post-select

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 21:34, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And the answer is yes, he would know that, but not immediately. So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will not immediately see

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 18:07, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Liz, I came across that page of yours a few months ago through random searching. (I forgot what I was searching for), but only later did I realize it was your blog! Out of curiosity, do you recall what the 2 other responses

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 19:44, freqflyer07281972 thismindisbud...@gmail.comwrote: I totally agree with you that science, when you really start getting into the implications of things like QM (and relativity for that matter), provides some rather unsettling (and yet very exciting!) conclusions. And

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
There are an awful lot of hidden assumptions implied by that first explicit assumption imagine a world in which everything is computational. I've asked for clarification from Edgar, but I won't hold my breath while I wait. On 16 January 2014 22:44, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 01:10, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 3:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is doing the computations?

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 01:46, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, speculatively jumping into the Tegmark book, which I am plodding through and his 4 levels of the multiverse, I need to throw out this question. Is it even possible, in principle, to physically traverse into another universe, a

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 08:11, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:20 PM, LizR wrote: Ah, well, I would expect Dennett to say that! On 16 January 2014 16:19, Colin Geoffrey Hales cgha...@unimelb.edu.au wrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25289 I think Dennett is right. As soon as we're

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 16 January 2014 13:10, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 3:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 12:12, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. What is this world? What does it consist of? What is

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 02:19, freqflyer07281972 wrote: Unless I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together, of course. Well, that's just it, isn't it? :-) Or indeed, if all of this self stuff is really a very sophisticated mental model we run... I've tried making that

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 03:08, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 4:32 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Yes, GR assumes smooth Riemannian manifolds. The mapping works for them wonderfully. That fact was proven by the people that discovered Fiber Bundles. The hard thing to grasp is how the mapping

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 03:10, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 4:23 PM, LizR wrote: So although the troll theory is tempting, because that is exactly how trolls behave, I'm going to go for a bot instead. Someone decided to write a programme which trots out a theory that doesn't make sense, then

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 03:46, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: A long, rambling but often interesting discussion among guys at MIRI about how to make an AI that is superintelligent but not dangerous (FAI=Friendly AI). Here's an

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 01:57, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 4:03 PM, LizR wrote: By the way, I may have this wrong but it seems to me your hyperdeterminism objection is an objection to block universes generally. I can't see how the big crunch (or timelike infinity) being a boundary condition

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread spudboy100
Thanks, SP. I guess I will just have to buck and be satisfied with one universe. ;-) -Original Message- From: Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Jan 15, 2014 7:54 pm Subject: Re: Tegmark's New Book Dear

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Computer Science

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:02, Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25377 Neil Gershenfeld Physicist, Director, MIT's Center for Bits and Atoms; Author, FAB Totally agree: He blames Turing and von Neumann So do I. He assumes both comp and weak materialism. In fact

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread spudboy100
Thanks, Liz. I am suspecting that Stargate or Sliders is not just around the corner, then. Cancel my trip to Neverland then! -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Jan 15, 2014 8:07 pm Subject: Re: Tegmark's New

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:05, Jason Resch wrote: Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to me. Why should particle properties conform to what a computer's random number generator outputs, and then the digits of Pi, and then the binary expansion of the square root of 2, all

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 09:11, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 16 January 2014 16:26, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The computational metaphor in the sense of the brain works like the Intel CPU inside the box on your desk is clearly misleading, but the sense that a computer can in

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:14, Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25336 Rodney A. Brooks Roboticist; Panasonic Professor of Robotics (emeritus) , MIT; Founder, Chairman CTO, Rethink Robotics; Author, Flesh and Machines While we’re at it Lots of good stuff in

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:19, Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25289 Daniel C. Dennett Philosopher; Austin B. Fletcher Professor of Philosophy, Co- Director, Center for Cognitive Studies, Tufts University; Author, Intuition Pumps And again Cheers Niloc am

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:25, freqflyer07281972 wrote: On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 4:54:09 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote: Man that’s uncool. You may think he is an idiot, but to go troll the internet and then publish on this list his very personal life is crossing a line. I think you owe

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, No, moving just means changing. Time most certainly changes, and if you accept that time is a 4th-dimension (necessary if you accept SR and GR) there can certainly be movement along the time axis... We see the movement of time all the time and measure it with our clocks. I hate to use

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, Sure. So what? That's not inconsistent with everything being at one and only one point of time as time continually moves. That is in fact what proves that time moves. Edgar On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 10:40:49 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 1/15/2014 5:02 PM, LizR wrote: Second,

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Chris, Reality itself is doing the computing... The aspect of reality called 'happening' drives it... Edgar On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 11:10:16 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote: *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On

On the nature and existence of many non computational things

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, I would like to start a new thread to discuss the nature and existence of the many non computational things that you have mentioned in your posts. Could you find a few moments to write some remarks on these? In particular I wonder if their proposed non-computability can be

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, Bruno and I agree on this one, our usually imagined space is completely a construction of our minds. That is fundamental to my theory. I explain in detail how it happens in my new topic post Another shot at how spacetime emerges from quantum computations if anyone cares to read it...

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Jason, This is only a problem if you don't understand that everything happens in the present moment P-time. The clock times diverge in value but always in the same present moment. There is no 'catching up' in p-time because nothing ever leaves it no matter how fast or slow their clocks are

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Computer Science

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, Let me first say that I share your opinion of physicalism! As to the empirical evidence of inorganic minds. What behavior should we look for? I ask this with all seriousness, as I have been researching methods to detect AGI (another way to denote inorganic minds) and have found that

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 16, 2014, at 2:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 January 2014 16:26, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The computational metaphor in the sense of the brain works like the Intel CPU inside the box on your desk is clearly misleading, but the sense

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Bruno, Hear Hear! Dennett wants to be correct by making the Hard Problem go away. that is the most lazy way of solving the problem: making a long winded wand-waving argument that consciousness is an illusion and then failing to explain the persistence of the stipulated illusion! On Thu,

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, It's amazing how much your mouth has to move to tell me it's not moving! Edgar On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 7:55:09 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Edgar, Bingo! You are correct. All motion in space-time is an illusion. The ancient greeks figured that out already.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Jason, Could you be more specific about why you are skeptical of p-zombies? I have my reasons to disbelieve in them, but I am curious as to your reasoning. On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 9:17 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 16, 2014, at 2:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, How about this twist on your claim: Reality is isomorphic to the computations and its dynamics (thermodynamics) drives it. On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, Reality itself is doing the computing... The aspect of reality called

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, What mouth? It is only the relations between numbers! On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Stephen, It's amazing how much your mouth has to move to tell me it's not moving! Edgar On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 7:55:09 PM UTC-5, Stephen

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 16, 2014, at 5:42 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 03:46, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: A long, rambling but often interesting discussion among guys at MIRI about how to make an AI that

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, No, it's not static relations between numbers, it's an active computational process. If just static relations between numbers your mouth would just be hanging open forever in the same look of shock... Edgar On Thursday, January 16, 2014 9:48:44 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote:

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, Whoa, back up a little. This is the argument that proves every INDIVIDUAL observer has his OWN present moment time. You are trying to extend it to a cosmic universal time which this argument doesn't address. That's the second argument you referenced. This argument demonstrates that for

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 16, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Jason, Could you be more specific about why you are skeptical of p- zombies? I have my reasons to disbelieve in them, but I am curious as to your reasoning. Ask a zombie if it is conscious, and

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, The universality of the first person experience of a flow of events (what you denote as time) is addressed by Bruno's First Person Indeterminism (FPI) concept. This universality cannot be said to allow for a singular present moment for all observers such that they can have it in

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Jason, I see a flaw in your argument. On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 16, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Jason, Could you be more specific about why you are skeptical of p-zombies? I

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, What is this magical FPI that tells us in this present moment that there is no such present moment? What's the actual supposed proof? Edgar On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:17:31 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Edgar, The universality of the first person experience of

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 2:09 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: It [entropy] is NOT the log of the number of ways a macro-state could form. That would be ambiguous in any case (do different order of events count as different ways? Yes obviously. the Boltzmann formula shows the

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, I already wrote up one argument against the concept of a universal present moment using the general covariance requirement of GR. Did you read it? It is impossible to define a clock on an infinitesimal region of space-time thus it is impossible to define a present moment in a way

Retiring the universe

2014-01-16 Thread Gabriel Bodeen
If any of you haven't seen it, you will likely be quite interesting the The Edge's list of responses to this year's question, What scientific idea is ready for retirement? Some of the answers are fascinating, some are absurd, and some are confusing. Take a look!

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
Do you have an explanation for why reality time computes fewer moments for someone accelerating than someone at rest? Jason On Jan 16, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Brent, Whoa, back up a little. This is the argument that proves every INDIVIDUAL observer has

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Jan 16, 2014, at 9:32 AM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Jason, I see a flaw in your argument. On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 16, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote:

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Edgar, I already wrote up one argument against the concept of a universal present moment using the general covariance requirement of GR. Did you read it? It is impossible to define a clock on an

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:28, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2014/1/16 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 15 Jan 2014, at 21:02, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is still FPI going on in the rogue simulation - the one where

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: The simplest and by far most likely answer is to assume that the world we appear to live in IS the real actual world Maybe. But it could be argued that if the ability to perform vast calculations is possible (and I can't

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 10:59 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 6:46 PM, spudboy...@aol.com mailto:spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, speculatively jumping into the Tegmark book, which I am plodding through and his 4 levels of the multiverse, I need to throw out this question. Is it

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Jan 2014, at 10:41, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I tend not to consider that a brain is a digital computer. I agree. Then comp explains completely why a brain is definitely not a digital computer. A brain is a physical object. And if you grasp the step seven, you should understand than

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 11:25 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:44 AM, freqflyer07281972 thismindisbud...@gmail.com mailto:thismindisbud...@gmail.com wrote: I totally agree with you that science, when you really start getting into the implications of things like QM (and

Re: Tegmark and consciousness

2014-01-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Jan 2014, at 23:09, John Mikes wrote: Brent: thanks for submitting Colin Hales' words! I lost track of him lately in the West-Australian deserts (from where he seemed to move to become focussed on being accepted for scientific title(s) by establishment-scientist potentates - what

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 11:35 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:46 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 6:46 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/15/2014 11:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:58 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to me. Why should particle properties

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Hi Jason, Yes I do have an explanation for how GR effects are computed. Thanks for asking. It's refreshing to just have someone ask a question about my theories rather than jumping to attack them. Much appreciated... The processor cycles for all computations are provided by P-time (clock time

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Jason, Let's try to be a bit more formal. Interleaving. On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 16, 2014, at 9:32 AM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Jason, I see a flaw in your argument. On Thu, Jan 16, 2014

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 12:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 16 January 2014 16:26, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The computational metaphor in the sense of the brain works like the Intel CPU inside the box on your desk is clearly misleading, but the sense that a computer can in theory do

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 12:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The body does not produces consciousness, it only make it possible for consciousness to forget the higher self, and deludes us (in some sense) in having a little ego embedded in some history. Sounds like wishful thinking. Why higher? Why not

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, No, that's incorrect. No winning number needs to be drawn in the lottery. In fact there are no winners fairly often. That's why the jackpot keeps increasing Lotteries are not won by choosing among player submitted numbers, they are drawn at random from all possible numbers within

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Jason, I do not think that block time is a coherent idea. It assumes something impossible: that a unique foliation of space-time can be defined that correlates to a specific experience of an entity that is said to be embedded in the block. My argument is that the entire way that time is

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:40, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And the answer is yes, he would know that, but not immediately. So it would not change the indeterminacy, as he will not immediately see that he is in a

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:37 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 10:59 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 6:46 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, speculatively jumping into the Tegmark book, which I am plodding through and his 4 levels of the multiverse, I

Re: Edgar, Personal Attacks, and the Real Consequences of Comp

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:44 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 11:25 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:44 AM, freqflyer07281972 thismindisbud...@gmail.com wrote: I totally agree with you that science, when you really start getting into the

Re: Consciousness as a State of Matter

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 12:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Jan 2014, at 20:44, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 12:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:39, LizR wrote: On 15 January 2014 10:29, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com mailto:terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: condescending

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Edgar, I would agree with your idea here if you made one change: replace the single abstract computing space for all of space-time and replace it with an abstract computing space for each point of space-time. The *one* computation becomes an *infinite number* of disjoint computations.

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:49 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 11:35 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:46 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 6:46 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, meekerdb

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:53 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 11:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:58 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:05 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Hyper determinism makes little sense as a serious theory to

Re: Retiring the universe

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
I must admit I thought the MWI had already retired the universe. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

2014-01-16 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: Dear Jason, Let's try to be a bit more formal. Interleaving. On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.comwrote: On Jan 16, 2014, at 9:32 AM, Stephen Paul King

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 1:40 AM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 19:20, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:44 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear LizR, But stop and think of the implications of what even Bruno is saying. *Space is completely

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 03:10, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, Reality itself is doing the computing... The aspect of reality called 'happening' drives it... That isn't an answer to *anything* I've asked. Naming something doesn't explain what it is. I thought you'd have enough

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 1:48 AM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 20:00, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 14:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You can do that (in

Re: Another shot at how spacetime emerges from computational reality

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
Actually I can't be bothered asking Edgar the same questions again and getting no answer again (or a non-answer like the one he just gave Chris, while carefully ignoring me). If he wants to ignore my questions, I shouldnt waste time asking. So I have deleted my post restating the questions I asked

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread LizR
On 17 January 2014 07:56, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/16/2014 1:48 AM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 20:00, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:08 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 January 2014 14:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You can do that (in fact

Re: The Singularity Institute Blog

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 03:46, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 10:33 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: A long, rambling but often interesting discussion among guys at MIRI about how to make an

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 4:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, that's my point. Price make a logical point, though. But we have to abandon QM for QM + a lot of extra-information to select one reality. In that case why not come back to Ptolemeaus. The idea that it is the sun which moves in the sky is

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, There is no all of spacetime nor each point of spacetime where the computations are occuring. Remember, that's an abstract dimensionLESS computational space prior to dimensional spacetime. It has no 'points' itself, it computes all points of dimensional space and clock time. They

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Stephen, PS: I agree with the rest of what you are saying here but again you are talking about clock time, dimensional spacetime, and not P-time which is distinct and is prior to any metrics... Edgar On Thursday, January 16, 2014 1:23:50 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Edgar,

Re: Tegmark's New Book

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 7:09 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, Whoa, back up a little. This is the argument that proves every INDIVIDUAL observer has his OWN present moment time. You are trying to extend it to a cosmic universal time which this argument doesn't address. That's the second argument you

Re: What are wavefunctions?

2014-01-16 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:08 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 January 2014 03:51, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 5:10 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 January 2014 22:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:04, LizR

Re: Retiring the universe

2014-01-16 Thread meekerdb
On 1/16/2014 8:30 AM, Gabriel Bodeen wrote: Leonard Susskind eventually solved the information paradox by insisting that we restrict our description of the world to either the region of spacetime outside the black hole's horizon or to the interior of the black hole. Either one is

  1   2   >