Hey Rick
I have a hyper-9 on my 20' pontoon boat and it certainly delivers full
torque off the line. I am running a "boat" controller file from hyper9 and
it is their stock HV 144v controller that can with it. I'm running it also
at 160v nominal from a split chevy volt pack. I have a whole other
Well the the ratio of panel size to output power for the vehicle does vary
upon speed and usage. As a builder of a an on-board solar powered boat I
have had great success with it - 4 years worth :-) My Firefly's motors (
http://www.evalbum.com/3432) are only about 800 watts total power from my
cr
Thanks Bob! . You have a dual drive like I do so it can be steered via the
motors. I used a Sabertooth 2x60 motor controller, an RC controller with
an Ardupilot in between, all the typical parts you would find a
quadrocopter/ RC car. Remote range is great (line of sight) and there is
an app that
Hey folks
I'm hoping someone can help me with my EV. My snowpig (
http://www.evalbum.com/4544 ) has suffered two drive motor failures in the
past two weeks! I purchased a D&D 170-04-01 8hp torque motor two years ago
to beef up my cart that I use to clear our dirt road for myself and
our neighbor
tery current is low.
>
> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Dan Baker via EV
> wrote:
>
>> Hey folks
>>
>> I'm hoping someone can help me with my EV. My snowpig (
>> http://www.evalbum.com/4544 ) has suffered two drive motor failures in
>> the
>>
Hey everyone, thanks for all the suggestions and help. David, I verified
the drivetrain doesn't have any binds by jacking rear of the cart up and I
was able to spin the motor input spline by hand. I was also able to move
the cart freely around the garage. I was able to recover two brush springs
Hey everyone
Thanks again for all your wisdom and help around my issue. We didn't get
any snow last night, just rain so not a lot to test with before I took off
for the airport. As mentioned I'm not feeling any binds in the drive
train and the only thing I can't rule put is a bind that could occ
Does anyone know of a Ammeter kit that could read from 3 different shunts?
I would like to have one at the blower, the drive motor and total coming
off where the two battery packs meet. I guess I could get away with two if
there was something that could measure both motor shunts simultaneously? If
t;
> This would involve an Arduino board, an ADC shield, and a LCD display.
> I've got something similar that I used for testing my conversion.
>
> Feel free to contact me offline if you are interested in more details.
>
> Cheers, Peter
>
> On 2/28/15 5:14 AM, Dan Baker v
That's a pretty impressive video. Maybe they can build the robotics for
the home user so the plug can find the charge port by itself... :-)
Seriously in the future this technology will be needed when EV use becomes
dominant. If you spent any time around a busy gas station on a Thursday
evening be
t; more in the hands of the manufacturer.
>
> I can imagine "tow trucks" like a roll back, with a battery swapper in the
> bed. You call AAA and they have the tow truck pick up a correct pack and
> bring it to you for swapping.
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Dan Baker
I live in Nova Scotia, one of those provinces that lie above that 600 tonne
C02 emissions mentioned in that article. While the last lines of that
article reads that it is government responsibility to fix it many other
versions I read that don't mention this, which will lead to lots of V8
powered t
I've installed an arduino based autopilot on my solar boat last year and
it's been an interesting addition. It's not that smart despite having an
internal gyroscope, GPS, compass but I do like it, it will maintain a
course even if there is a weight shift or wind change that would normally
sway the
Hey George
Sorry for the delay but awesome boat! Looks very comfortable. While not a
deep ocean vessel it would be an awesome canal/lake boat as you built it
for. The members of the group can be very helpful with specific problems,
response is generally great! Have you submitted your craft to
Congrats Bill! Nice article, even more nice that most of the pics include
Eva and none of you, guess they picked the more photogenic one of the team,
LOL Just kidding, I know you and Eva worked very hard for this, glad to
see you folks getting some recognition!
Cheers
Dan
On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 a
I'm not sure how many of us use Alltrax controllers in their EVs but I
wanted to share a learning experience I had with one. I purchased an
AXE-7245 3 years ago and last summer it started acting up where it would
not boot in my boat (http://www.evalbum.com/4767). It appeared something
was amiss i
Thanks David and Lee
The Alltrax document depot has an AXE Diagram
(Doc100-046-A_DWG-AXE-Reverse-No-PlugBrk-wire-dia.pdf) which shows this
diode as MR752 or 6a06. Basically a 6amp diode. This goes on the key
switch/ power pin. You also need a resister and diode down on the
contactor to prevent
I have to agree with Musk on the principle of weeding out an unwanted early
adopter and not a customer. When you build and release a new product, you
rely upon early adopters to give helpful feedback and spread the word about
your new great product. This stage is critical to getting the product t
Wow, even more rebates for Ontario, where as the province I live in (Nova
Scotia) has never had any...
Has anyone ever successfully petitioned their government to get such
credits in place? Would love to hear how they got it done. I'm not into
politics but I will speak up for the right cause, an
Hello EVDL members
I'm looking at replacing the lead pack on my pontoon boat this year with a
much lighter lithium solution. I see on Aliexpress that they have 12v and
48v 100ah packs with built in BMS that look be the best prices I've seen.
These are brands I have not heard before (GTK/Demuda,
Thank you everyone for the response so far, lots of information to
consider as usual. I currently running my boat at 48 volts but considering
running at 96 to reduce amperage, heat and a not so silent gear set.
Interesting on the 12v voltage limits Jay. 4 packs of 12v 100ah currently
look to be ch
Dan
On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 9:18 PM Jay Summet via EV wrote:
>
>
> On 3/11/19 7:40 PM, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
> >
> > I have two really nice 17amp 48v Sevcon lead acid chargers, would I be
> > able to use them with these Lithium packs (connected to match 48v of
> ba
9-10v?). Some reviewers have found packs listed at 100ah capacity to
actually have only 30ah cells inside, lots of misinformation.
Thank you,
Dan
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:01 PM Jay Summet via EV wrote:
>
>
> On 3/12/19 9:59 AM, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
>
> > If I don't ch
Thanks guys- never thought of this, I have a similar unit in my boat
already. I typically use it just for monitoring amp output and volts. I
have two throttles on my boat, a spring loaded Curtis-PB6 which I use for
docking/ maneuvering and a 5k knob style pot that I switch over for
cruise control
t; higher, the precision of the amp meter would matter less....)
>
> Jay
>
> On 3/13/19 3:38 PM, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
> > Thanks guys- never thought of this, I have a similar unit in my boat
> > already. I typically use it just for monitoring amp output and volts. I
> &
That's pretty awesome Bill, although I only saw the speedometer hit 231, so
much slower lol. I expected to see a lot more gauges other than a
speedometer, take it's all being done remotely? I suppose at those speeds
taking your eyes off the road to even glance at a gauge means a lot of
distance c
Wow lots of great info. So I guess the counteraction of temp rise &
voltage compensates for any losses from Peukert's equation in Lithium under
normal operating conditions. I suspect the equation is still applicable to
Lithium but at much higher draws, far past the C rating i.e. the battery
will
nding upon age, so you can use them in 8 parallel 6 series to
> get a 48volt (50.4 volt max) pack with 320+ AH of capacity.
>
> Plus you don't need to bother with liquid cooling connections...(which
> may be a plus or minus depending upon how hard you are hitting them...)
>
>
Wow, lots of learning here. So with Lithium, a safe BMS cut-off typically
kicks around when there is less than 20% remaining? So the a/h ratings
typically (and when truthfully) displayed are actually 20% less? 100 a/h
battery is typically only 80 a/h? This is fine as I know you can't get
100% of
Great question Ken, want the same answer! I have 2 nice Sevcon Lead acid
chargers that I would like to re-purpose for charging Lithium. End
voltages would likely be too high, I am planning on running a BMS. But when
max voltage is obtained I take it the BMS should start taking the load
instead?
ith or without the BMS?
> >>
> >> Most companies take the aH from each cell in the series string and add
> >> them up. Some pluck a figure out of the air!
> >>
> >> 80% of the manufacturer figure is a good place to start but that might
> >> be a tad h
lls x 2.8Ah = 10.4kW
> So 2 x modules of 6s74p (444 cells) =10.4kWh
>
> While your 96v100ah pack on Aliexpress may be Lithium Iron Phosphate
> 96 x 100 = 9.6Kw and may have lower discharge rates.
>
> On Monday, March 18, 2019, 7:19:01 AM CDT, Dan Baker via EV <
> ev@lists.
I think Ken and I are looking for the same thing (I hope). I'm looking to
use "dumb" (non CAN Bus) chargers with a cell pack with a BMS (or in Ken's
case maybe no BMS). In my case the chargers I have are designed for lead
acid so they have a higher finishing voltage than acceptable for the pack.
This might be what we are looking for?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Voltage-Detection-Relay-Switch-Control-Module-Digital-LED-Display-DC-12V-E2O2/392218823066?hash=item5b5210499a:g:cRkAAOSw-yJcQVCH
On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 3:14 PM ken via EV wrote:
>I understand with a BMS that as per
> > cell v
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2019/03/19/news/budget-proposes-rebates-electric-cars-voluntary-sales-mandate?fbclid=IwAR0OIQlMFCx5AfiV7UuMqv9NidtSyAjKQB0gACHe28RaDu04dBoVSA2xpmY
I think it is great that it is finally coming, but the announcement is
bittersweet. After looking for what new EVs ar
s, an electric motorcycle might be in my
future :-)
On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 6:06 PM Bill Woodcock wrote:
>
>
> > On Mar 20, 2019, at 1:37 PM, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
> >
> >
> https://www.nationalobserver.com/2019/03/19/news/budget-proposes-rebates-electric-car
Thanks guys for the information. Ken and I are reaching out for help so
don't spank us yet for putting in something dangerous lol. In my case,
where I plan to use a BMS but want to reuse a lead charger, a BMS and
voltage cut-off so the charger doesn't just send amps to the shunts when
all cells r
Ditto on what Rod said, although you can probably buy a conversion harness
from Curtis to match your cart if you are not comfortable cutting &
re-terminating. Be sure to use a big ANL fuse between it and the
battery + and I like to also use a small 5-10 amp fuse that feeds the
keyswitch/controlle
I've used datacenter batteries which can have incredibly small terminals -
a bolt head which uses a 10mm stainless nut. I have pulled 2-300 amps
almost continuously on my snowpig in deep snow without them even getting
warm. Just make sure the wire lug or bus bar are mated well to the
terminal, tor
gt;>
>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 12:39 PM paul dove wrote:
>>
>>> Well, I am not sure you are comparing apples to apples. All Lithium Ion
>>> batteries are not equal in power density or energy density.
>>>
>>> A Tesla model S battery cell goes up to 4.2 volt
Last week while I was away I accidentally left my boat plugged in while a
severe storm passed through. Lightning must have struck nearby as the
charger stopped putting out a charge. Further inspection revealed traces of
an arc flash and a exploded mosfet. Not sure if its repairable or not.
Does a
Hello Everyone
I finally made the jump and purchased my 5th but more importantly- road
legal EV, a 2017 Chevrolet Volt! I purchased it used in another province
1200 km away as there are no incentives in my province of Nova Scotia. I
couldn't buy it new but the used vehicles in Quebec reflect tha
Hey everyone thanks for the response so far. I agree now, better to try a
more friendly method then resort to push & threaten. So frustrating
though, easy to get caught up. Would love to see some of those printed
cards/flyers Mark!
Cheers
Dan
On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Lee Hart via EV wr
d (EVnut.com), and the author of this one suggested a little
> editing - “This vehicle” would become “your vehicle” and some of the
> “Electric Vehicle Recharging Station” redundancy could be eliminated.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 8, 2017, at 4:27 AM, Dan Bake
I was maliciously thinking the same, but a bumper sticker that reads "I
hate polar bears so much I park in EV spaces" lol.
On Dec 13, 2017 2:50 PM, "Peri Hartman via EV" wrote:
> How about a sticker for the gas cap?
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Dube via EV"
> To: ev@lists.ev
om your
sacrifice! Enjoy.
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 1:06 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> On 3 Aug 2017 at 16:27, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
>
> > From their site it's hard to tell where there funding comes from, they
> do list
> > their funding as 27% from businesses
Hey Everyone
My favorite store, Princess Auto (like a Harbor Freight, but Canadian)
surprised me the other night with a FB video on their website:
https://www.facebook.com/princessauto/videos/10155108678488341/
What surprised me even more is the amount of views - 138k in 1.5 days!
Guess there re
017 07:47 AM, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
>
>> Hey Everyone
>>
>> My favorite store, Princess Auto (like a Harbor Freight, but Canadian)
>> surprised me the other night with a FB video on their website:
>>
>> https://www.facebook.com/princessauto/videos/1015510867
pack they could loan me? :-)
Cheers,
Dan
On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 9:41 PM, Willie via EV wrote:
>
>
> On 12/19/2017 07:15 PM, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
>
>> Hey Willie
>>
>> I run at 48v. I suppose you could run at 36v with the right controller
>> and
>> mo
Hey Jerry
I would give Carl over at Evdrives a call, he should be able to recommend
something cost effective. I have a couple 96 ezgos that I fixed one up for
my pig. Originally one came with an aftermarket 36/48 Alltrax controller
which was running at 36v. I replaced the dead batteries with a
On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 2:34 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> jerry freedomev via EV wrote:
>
>> Hi Dan and All,
>>
> >
> > Looked at EVDRive and interesting but I was trying to find a lower
> > cost solution...
>
> I think we can help you there. Controlling a Sepex motor is almost as easy
> as a seri
So we have an interesting conundrum in my province (Nova Scotia). NS
decided to concentrate their efforts on saving energy instead of cleaning
it up first. This makes sense as the most efficient watt is the watt that
was never used which I agree with. They created an organization called
Efficien
who
> choose can even by green power using RECs. In the mean time, solar and wind
> will become even more effective than today, giving a better return on
> investment if built-out later.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Dan Baker via EV"
> To:
Hey Daryl
Great to meet another EVDL Canadian member! Thanks for the kudos and yes
would love to see that Elec-Trak, didn't know any actually made it to
Canada! I don't know David or Jeff but I certainly don't think they wanted
their story to be used against EVs but somehow it is. I started a FB
Hey Darryl
Looks like we aren't getting those EV station is Nova Scotia after all:
https://globalnews.ca/news/3945806/utility-board-nova-scotia-power-electric-vehicle/
The utility review board quashed it!
On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 5:45 PM, Dan Baker wrote:
> Hey Daryl
> Great to meet another E
I bought this charger off Amazon back in November when I got my Volt- it's
been working well and matches the Volt's max 16 amp draw. I have just what
is on the ebay deal no adapter cord. Apparently yes it can adapt down to
120v with a adapter cord, removes one of the hots for a ground I believe.
T
Hey John
First of all that is one awesome truck! The best Ford EV in my opinion! :-)
Since you are only looking for clutch action while rolling I would also
suggest an actuator too but maybe something that is air or vacuum driven.
I have used electric linear actuators before with a cheap reversi
This a great relevant thread for me. I'm interested in going from Lead to
Lithium on my boat and I believe Volt cells are likely the most available
and least expensive to me. The Volt cells appear to have different charge
points than most Lithium so the HB404 looks like a great solution. Jerry,
Great topic
So can the ammeter/battery gauge that evwest sell be used to turn off a
charger? What do you set it to turn off, when a voltage is attained?
Anyone use this meter in their setup for charge control?
FYI- If the owner is looking for a state of charge with more than 4 bars I
used a cheap
Hey Bill
Bruce already mentioned my Snowpig above and it's in the evalbum -
http://www.evalbum.com/4544. I built it for probably the worst winter snow
clearing conditions, very wet heavy snow on a dirt road that has hills and
little traction. Lots of learning experience!
I found that most blower
Hello EVDL group!
I purchased a couple Sevcon 48V DC Battery Charger 622/42202 850W 17A chargers
last year on ebay at a great price, for about $50 US each. They work
great, they aren't fan cooled but have large heat sinks that one can put a
fan on to keep them cool. I can't seem to find any manu
Thanks Lee! I will give it a try. I have a digital voltmeter on my gauge
pack so I can monitor.
Cheers
Dan
On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 12:05 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
> Dan Baker via EV wrote:
>
>> Hello EVDL group!
>> I purchased a couple Sevcon 48V DC Battery Charger 622/42202 85
Hey Lee
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> Cruisin via EV wrote:
>
>> If the chargers are not isolated you will destroy everything when conned
>> in
>> parallel.
>>
>
> Good point! Some chargers aren't isolated.
>
> But Sevcon chargers are all isolated.
>
> --
> Teaching c
Hey Lee,
You were definitely right, I hooked the 2 chargers up-no explosions or
smoke, just 34 amps of charge! Definitely has been handy the last couple
storms where I have gone out 4-5 times per storm to continue clearing. One
sevcon will change the status LED from red to yellow before the other
Hey Lawrence
I hand built a panel for my boat 5 years ago when panels were 3X expensive
over the cells. Although my panel still works well I wouldn't do it again
as prices have fallen so sharply the last few years. As Cor mentioned your
max panel voltage should be higher than the cell pack so it
Hey Bruce
Somehow my SnowPIG doesn't show up in the list when Snow is searched...
http://www.evalbum.com/4544
On it's 5th season of brutal Eastern Canada winters. Despite burned up
brushes, controllers and the odd fuse and smoked wire, we are still ahead
of paying for a truck with a plow. There
Hello all,
Not sure if anyone has seen the article below:
In a report released in June, the Montreal Economic Institute concluded
provincial subsidies were the most expensive, least effective way to help
cut greenhouse gas emissions.
https://www.iedm.org/71213-electric-vehicle-subsidies-expensiv
icle's prices to increase. I take it the end result they
predict isn't true for California?
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
> Dan Baker via EV wrote:
>
>> In a report released in June, the Montreal Economic Institute concluded
>> provincial subsidies
ished in any public media? The reference is to their web
> site and so it’s just an opportunity piece looking for an outlet.
>
> Regards,
> Lawrence Harris
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 3, 2017, at 05:54, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> &
I agree that Solar vehicles are practical in certain applications. The
ability to charge and move in remote areas without relying upon any
external infrastructure is very appealing to a certain audience. Just look
at the explosive growth (pun not intended) in home battery storage, no one
thought
Has anyone here had their EV undercoated? I know a lot of vehicle's
warranties state that their corrosion coverage could be void if any rust
inhibitors are applied. And some rustproofing products will degrade rubber
and plastic over time- not good for high voltage cables. But without
rustproofing
In the wake of Hurricane Dorian, my province Nova Scotia had over 400,000
customers without power. Our home had no power for over 27 hours. Luckily I
have lots of batteries and a generator but many homes did not have a backup
option and still 60,000 are on Day 4 without. One gentleman ( a fellow
pful if you like to have warm
> food or drink during a power outage…
>
> Cor.
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Dan Baker via EV
> *Sent: *Wednesday, September 11, 2019 12:37 PM
> *To: *
I'm assuming the little detent lever that allows you to move the shifter
from P to D/N/R. I guess there is a small micro switch that registers when
it is pressed and keeps the car on?
On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:25 PM moskowitz
wrote:
> Dan Baker wrote:
>
> > ...One gentleman ( a fellow FB
> > fr
Thanks guys for the info so far. Michael, I use fluid film too, have my
own shultz gun and buy it by the 5 gallon pail. It is still expensive at
that size per liter but I can usually do 7-8 cars with it. David, you must
not be in the rust belt, lucky you. I live in an area where it is a
necessar
I am unsure of the true spec, would love to know too but it should be able
to handle up to a 2KW invertor. It has to support all the 12v vehicle
electronics and accessories - coolant pumps, interior fan, headlights,
interior/exterior lighting, stereo, window defroster, windows etc. I guess
a wis
Those high wattage 12v inverters certainly push the limits for something to
melt. A 2 KW model would need 150+ amps to run, certainly no cigarette
lighter socket could provide. According to my blue sea circuit app, even a
short 3ft cable to the battery should have a 3/0 gauge size!
On Sat, Sep 14
Brake fluid quality can easily checked by viewing its color - it comes out
of the bottle clear and turns brown/black as it ages with air and
contaminants. Most service manuals I have seen state around 4-5 years for
brake fluid flushing. There are many youtube videos on how to flush brake
systems,
I own a 17 Volt as well, I use it almost daily for small trips and the
range "guess-o-meter" is all over the place these days. Pretty sure too it
calculates on previous trip usage, driving habits but even with all that
being the same the outside temperature seems to have the largest effect
these
Can anyone here advise if they are using chevrolet volt batteries with a
BMS and if so what BMS they used? I know the Volt batteries are very
robust, read where a lot of folks have used them without any BMS. But I
really don't want to take any scary chances like that! I would like to use
a BMS t
Hello
Has anyone on the list here used Chevy Volt packs in parallel? Just bought
a Gen 2 Volt pack, looking to use the top of the T (44s,162.8V section) and
then make another 44s, 162.8V pack from the other 2. I'm looking at a
Hyper9 X144 kit which has a 180v max input so splitting & paralleling
Thanks Jerry for your practical use of parallel pack info using Volt
batts! Bummer on the trike - glad you are ok! Did you just use a fixed
charge connected to all the packs , no diodes or contactors? It seems more
ppl are using Volt packs without any BMS than those that use one. I'm going
to be
Awesome, fantastic info Jerry! yes glad again you are ok too and too bad
about EV- hard to put a price on a one of a kind EV, like a lost art piece
:-(
Yes I am looking at running an AC setup - the Hyper9 X144 setup looks
impressive. I am currently running a Motoenergy ME1003 on a 96V DC setup
o
've heard it before, but here it is again.
>
> Proceed without a BMS at your own peril.
>
> Best case, you ruin some expensive cells.
>
> Worst case, you burn your house down.
>
> Al
>
> On 3/5/2021 9:31 AM, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
> > Thanks Jerry for yo
Lots of great comments here, thanks for all the great advice! And yes
David I understand it is free and not to be taken as legal/verbatim!
I guess where the Volt pack is so reliable you can go without an electronic
BMS although it sounds like a terrible idea. I suppose one could write a
pre-fligh
Hey David
Thanks for commenting in. But what you said above could also be applied to
any home built EV - don't build one as it likely isn't safe. No one is
really collecting enough data to answer either questions.
I build or try to build my boats to the ABYC standards in which I was
certified a
atively easy to top balance. To be honest, I see no
> issues.
> Mark Grasser
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Dan Baker via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2021 7:32 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Dan Bak
My first EV - my Firefly is on it's 10th year of 100% solar power:
http://www.evalbum.com/3432
Yes you can make a solar EV, even cheaply. But don't expect it to go 60
mph for hours. A solar car is pretty impractical by most standards, even
my boat would be impractical if I didn;t run it on my sm
I actually know quite a few people that do like the smell of gas as well
David! The easiest way to cure that is to take a teaspoon of any petrol
fuel, have them put it in their mouth and spit it out. They get to enjoy
hours of tasting that awful dino juice that mutes all other
flavors/smells. A
I agree there Bill! I live in Canada and of course I own a Snowmobile
LOL. It's a beast -250 hp turbo.
On groomed trails mileage is reasonable. Off trail and in deep snow mileage
drops incredibly- can go from a 110 miles on groomed trails to running out
of gas in just 20 miles in the tough stuff.
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