Panpsychist emergence

I am now - it seems - in the category "panpsychist friends & colleagues". https://twitter.com/smellosopher/status/1203343875173158913 [image: Image may contain:

Re: On the emergence of the solidly real from the realm of the abstract

"Quantum error correction may be how the emergent fabric of space-time achieves its robustness, despite being woven out of fragile quantum particles." Intriguing suggestion for the exquisite first person experiential stability of this mysterious space-time emerging from quantum soup in a

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-16, 11:37:13 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/16/2012 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King But how could one know

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

-list Time: 2012-11-15, 16:46:15 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/15/2012 11:27 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King But many minds are in agreement that God exists, so that must be true ? Hi Roger, In my proposed definitions, must only follows if and only

Re: Emergence of Properties

-15, 16:46:15 *Subject:* Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/15/2012 11:27 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King But many minds are in agreement that God exists, so that must be true ? Hi Roger, In my proposed definitions, must only follows if and only

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

] 11/16/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-16, 07:25:39 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/16/2012 6:44 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King

Re: Emergence of Properties

near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - *From:* Stephen P. King mailto:stephe...@charter.net *Receiver:* everything-list mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com *Time:* 2012-11-16, 07:25:39 *Subject:* Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/16/2012

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 12:31:14 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The properties of spacetime things are what can be measured (ie facts). The properties of beyond spacetime things

Re: Emergence of Properties

On 11/15/2012 11:27 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King But many minds are in agreement that God exists, so that must be true ? Hi Roger, In my proposed definitions, must only follows if and only if there is no accessible possible world where a contraindication of the agreement

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 13:31:14 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The properties of spacetime things are what can be measured (ie facts). The properties of beyond spacetime things are propositions that can't

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 13:31:14 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The properties of spacetime things are what can be measured (ie facts). The properties of beyond spacetime things are propositions that can't

Re: Emergence of Properties

@googlegroups.com *Time:* 2012-11-03, 13:31:14 *Subject:* Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The properties of spacetime things are what can be measured (ie facts). The properties of beyond spacetime things are propositions that can't

Re: Emergence of Properties

On 11/5/2012 1:19 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King In the end, we must accept a truth, so in the end, all truth is pragmatic. We must cast our own vote. Dear Roger, Are you familiar with Kenneth Arrow's impossibility theorem

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 13:35:50 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 9:18 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Yes, Aristotle's substances and their properties do

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-05, 13:43:57 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/5/2012 1:17 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I have no problem with that, although I do think that there are some eternal truths external to those minds. Dear Roger

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

Time: 2012-11-05, 13:51:48 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/5/2012 1:19 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King In the end, we must accept a truth, so in the end, all truth is pragmatic. We must cast our own vote. Dear Roger, Are you familiar with Kenneth Arrow's

Re: Emergence of Properties

On 11/5/2012 12:51 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 1:19 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King In the end, we must accept a truth, so in the end, all truth is pragmatic. We must cast our own vote. Dear Roger, Are you familiar with Kenneth Arrow's impossibility theorem

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

Time: 2012-11-03, 13:26:12 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 8:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Nov 2012, at 12:17, Stephen P. King wrote: ?? After I wrote the above I can see how you would think of properties as being innate, I meant independent of us. Not innate

Re: Emergence of Properties

at the center of its own universe. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/4/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 13:26:12 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties

Re: Emergence of Properties

On 02 Nov 2012, at 20:48, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/2/2012 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: How can anything emerge from something having non properties? Magic? Dear Bruno, Why do you consider magic as a potential answer to your question? After thinking about your question while I

Re: Emergence of Properties

On 11/3/2012 5:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The arithmetical property of numbers are innate to the numbers, logic and the laws we assume. Dear Bruno, How? How are properties innate? This idea makes no sense to me, it never has as it does not allow for any explanation of apprehension of

Re: Emergence of Properties

On 11/3/2012 5:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The arithmetical property of numbers are innate to the numbers, logic and the laws we assume. Hi, This paper might be interesting to any one that would like to see a nice discussion of who it is that we come to understand numbers:

Re: Emergence of Properties

On 03 Nov 2012, at 12:17, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/3/2012 5:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The arithmetical property of numbers are innate to the numbers, logic and the laws we assume. Dear Bruno, How? How are properties innate? This idea makes no sense to me, it never has as it

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 07:17:58 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 5:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The arithmetical property of numbers are innate to the numbers, logic

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 07:20:37 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 11/3/2012 5:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The arithmetical property of numbers are innate to the numbers, logic and the laws we assume. Hi, This paper might be interesting to any one

Re: Re: Emergence of Properties

...@verizon.net 11/3/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-03, 08:22:27 Subject: Re: Emergence of Properties On 03 Nov 2012, at 12:17, Stephen P. King wrote

Re: Emergence of Properties

On 11/3/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The properties of spacetime things are what can be measured (ie facts). The properties of beyond spacetime things are propositions that can't be contradicted (necessary truths). Hi Roger, I do not assume that the can't be contradicted is an a

Re: Emergence of Properties

On 11/3/2012 9:18 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Yes, Aristotle's substances and their properties do not change with time. But Leibniz's do very rapidly. And they are individual to each substance, meaning to each monad (from his aspect). The actual properties are collective data of the universe. Hi

Re: Emergence of Properties

On 11/2/2012 12:23 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: How can anything emerge from something having non properties? Magic? Dear Bruno, Why do you consider magic as a potential answer to your question? After thinking about your question while I was waiting to pick up my daughter from school, it

Re: Emergence

function. - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-23, 13:28:00 Subject: Re: Emergence Hi Richard, You mean provable statements not truths per se... I guess. OK, I haven't given that trope much thought I try to keep Godel's

Re: Re: Emergence

P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-23, 13:28:00 Subject: Re: Emergence Hi Richard, You mean provable statements not truths per se... I guess. OK, I haven't given that trope much thought I try to keep Godel's theorems reserved for special occasions. It has my experience

Re: Emergence

*Time:* 2012-08-23, 13:28:00 *Subject:* Re: Emergence Hi Richard, You mean provable statements not truths per se... I guess. OK, I haven't given that trope much thought I try to keep Godel's theorems reserved for special occasions. It has my experience

Re: Emergence

Hi Richard, Pratt's theory does not address this. Could emergence be the result of inter-communications between monads and not an objective process at all? It is useful to think about how to solve the Sorites paradox to see what I mean here. A heap is said to emerge from a collection

Re: Re: Emergence

everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-23, 12:48:51 Subject: Re: Emergence Hi Richard, Pratt's theory does not address this. Could emergence be the result of inter-communications between monads

Re: Emergence

It is said that strong emergence comes from Godel incompleteness. Weak emergence is like your grains of sand. On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: Hi Richard, Pratt's theory does not address this. Could emergence be the result of inter

Re: Emergence

Hi Richard, Ah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_emergence Strong emergence is a type of emergence in which the emergent property is irreducible to its individual constituents. OK, but irreducibility would have almost the same meaning as implying the non-existence of relations

Re: Emergence

Stephan, Strong emergence follows from Godel's incompleteness because in any consistent system there are truths that cannot be derived from the axioms of the system. That is what is meant by incompleteness. Sounds like what you just said. No? Richard On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Stephen P

Re: Emergence

wrote: Stephan, Strong emergence follows from Godel's incompleteness because in any consistent system there are truths that cannot be derived from the axioms of the system. That is what is meant by incompleteness. Sounds like what you just said. No? Richard On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 1:20 PM

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 11.02.2012 04:27 Russell Standish said the following: On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 09:39:50PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Let me ask you the same question that I have recently asked Brent. Could you please tell me, the thermodynamic entropy of what is discussed in Jason's example below?

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 09.02.2012 00:44 1Z said the following: On Feb 7, 7:04 pm, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: Let us take a closed vessel with oxygen and hydrogen at room temperature. Then we open a platinum catalyst in the vessel and the reaction starts. Will then the information in the vessel be

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 08.02.2012 22:44 Russell Standish said the following: On Wed, Feb 08, 2012 at 08:32:16PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... What I observe personally is that there is information in informatics and information in physics (if we say that the thermodynamic entropy is the information). If you

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 09.02.2012 07:49 meekerdb said the following: ... There's an interesting paper by Bennett that I ran across, which discusses the relation of Shannon entropy, thermodynamic entropy, and algorithmic entropy in the context of DNA and RNA replication:

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 09:39:50PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Let me ask you the same question that I have recently asked Brent. Could you please tell me, the thermodynamic entropy of what is discussed in Jason's example below? Evgenii If you're asking what is the conversion constant

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 07.02.2012 23:06 Russell Standish said the following: On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 08:15:10PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Russell, This is circular - temperature is usually defined in terms of entropy: T^{-1} = dS/dE This is wrong. The temperature is defined according to the Zeroth Law. The

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Wed, Feb 08, 2012 at 08:32:16PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... It sounds to me like you are arguing for a shift back to how thermodynamics was before the Bolztmann's theoretical understanding. A back-to-roots movement, as it were. I would like rather to understand the meaning of your

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Feb 7, 7:04 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: Let us take a closed vessel with oxygen and hydrogen at room temperature. Then we open a platinum catalyst in the vessel and the reaction starts. Will then the information in the vessel be conserved? Evgenii What's the difference

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 2/8/2012 1:44 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Wed, Feb 08, 2012 at 08:32:16PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... It sounds to me like you are arguing for a shift back to how thermodynamics was before the Bolztmann's theoretical understanding. A back-to-roots movement, as it were. I would

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 06 Feb 2012, at 20:42, meekerdb wrote: On 2/6/2012 9:03 AM, 1Z wrote: There is also a conservation of information. It is apparently industrictable. Is there? if there is , it is a phsycial law, and AFAIK it is hotly debated. It's the same as the question of wave-function collapse.

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 06.02.2012 20:42 meekerdb said the following: On 2/6/2012 9:03 AM, 1Z wrote: There is also a conservation of information. It is apparently industrictable. Is there? if there is , it is a phsycial law, and AFAIK it is hotly debated. It's the same as the question of wave-function

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 06.02.2012 22:19 Russell Standish said the following: On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 08:20:53PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.02.2012 22:46 Russell Standish said the following: On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 08:56:10PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: In this respect your question is actually nice, as

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

Russell, This is circular - temperature is usually defined in terms of entropy: T^{-1} = dS/dE This is wrong. The temperature is defined according to the Zeroth Law. The Second Law just allows us to define the absolute temperature, but the temperature as such is defined independently from

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 2/7/2012 11:04 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 06.02.2012 20:42 meekerdb said the following: On 2/6/2012 9:03 AM, 1Z wrote: There is also a conservation of information. It is apparently industrictable. Is there? if there is , it is a phsycial law, and AFAIK it is hotly debated. It's the

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 08:15:10PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Russell, This is circular - temperature is usually defined in terms of entropy: T^{-1} = dS/dE This is wrong. The temperature is defined according to the Zeroth Law. The Second Law just allows us to define the absolute

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

Informational laws and physical laws are, in my mind, closely related. Laws related to information seem to supercede physical law. For example, the impossibility of encoding information in fewer symbols or trying to send more over a channel in a given time period, than allowed. There

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Feb 6, 4:55 pm, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Informational laws and physical laws are, in my mind, closely related.  Laws related to information seem to supercede physical law. For example,  the impossibility of encoding information in fewer symbols or trying to send more over

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 05.02.2012 23:05 Russell Standish said the following: On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 08:50:40PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: I guess that you have never done a lab in experimental thermodynamics. There are classical experiment where people measure heat of combustion, heat capacity, equilibrium

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 08:36:44PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.02.2012 23:05 Russell Standish said the following: The context is there - you will just have to look for it. I rather suspect that use of these tables refers to homogenous bulk samples of the material, in thermal

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Mon, Feb 06, 2012 at 08:20:53PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.02.2012 22:46 Russell Standish said the following: On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 08:56:10PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: In this respect your question is actually nice, as now, I believe, we see that it is possible to have a

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 08:56:10PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: First, we have not to forget the Third Law that states that the change in entropy in any reaction, as well its derivatives, goes to zero as the temperatures goes to zero Kelvin. In this respect your question is actually nice,

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Fri, Feb 03, 2012 at 08:50:40PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: I guess that you have never done a lab in experimental thermodynamics. There are classical experiment where people measure heat of combustion, heat capacity, equilibrium pressure, equilibrium constants and then determine the

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 03.02.2012 00:14 Jason Resch said the following: On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Evgenii Rudnyiuse...@rudnyi.ru wrote: On 21.01.2012 22:03 Evgenii Rudnyi said the following: On 21.01.2012 21:01 meekerdb said the following: On 1/21/2012 11:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 21.01.2012

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

with the description at the particle level. Anyway, I would suggest to stick to empirical scientific knowledge that we have. Then I do not understand what do you mean that temperature is context dependent either. Temperature is an averaged quantity, so whilst technically an example of emergence

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 02.02.2012 22:35 Russell Standish said the following: On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 09:17:41PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 29.01.2012 23:06 Russell Standish said the following: Absolutely! But at zero kelvin, the information storage capacity of the device is precisely zero, so cooling only

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: Could you please give me an example of a physical property that is context dependent? Off the top of my head, mass, velocity, duration and length. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

. + thermodynamic information 3) Numerical values in 1) and 2) are not related to each other. Fixed that for you. Why should you expect the different types of information that come from different contexts to have the same numerical value? The whole point of On complexity and emergence is that notions

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

the different types of information that come from different contexts to have the same numerical value? The whole point of On complexity and emergence is that notions of information and entropy are complete context sensitive (that is not to say their subjective as such - people agreeing on the context

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 2/2/2012 10:35 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Yes, but when we speak about information carrier (book, a hard drive, DVD, flash memory) it is exactly the same. And it has nothing to do with the total number of physical states in the device, as this example with zero temperature nicely shows.

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 02.02.2012 20:00 meekerdb said the following: On 2/2/2012 10:35 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Yes, but when we speak about information carrier (book, a hard drive, DVD, flash memory) it is exactly the same. And it has nothing to do with the total number of physical states in the device, as this

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

level. Anyway, I would suggest to stick to empirical scientific knowledge that we have. Then I do not understand what do you mean that temperature is context dependent either. Temperature is an averaged quantity, so whilst technically an example of emergence, it is the weakest form

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 09:17:41PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 29.01.2012 23:06 Russell Standish said the following: Absolutely! But at zero kelvin, the information storage capacity of the device is precisely zero, so cooling only works to a certain point. I believe that you have

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: On 21.01.2012 22:03 Evgenii Rudnyi said the following: On 21.01.2012 21:01 meekerdb said the following: On 1/21/2012 11:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 21.01.2012 20:00 meekerdb said the following: On 1/21/2012 4:25

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

? The whole point of On complexity and emergence is that notions of information and entropy are complete context sensitive (that is not to say their subjective as such - people agreeing on the context will agree on the numerical values). First the thermodynamic entropy is not context depended

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 29.01.2012 23:00 Russell Standish said the following: On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 04:30:38PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: The problem that I see is that the entropy changes when the temperature changes. Or do you claim that the entropy of the memory stick/DVD/hard disc remains the same when its

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 29.01.2012 23:06 Russell Standish said the following: On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 09:41:27PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2012 3:42 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On the other hand, if you just gave me the metallic platter from the hard disk, and did not restrict in any way the technology used

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

contexts to have the same numerical value? The whole point of On complexity and emergence is that notions of information and entropy are complete context sensitive (that is not to say their subjective as such - people agreeing on the context will agree on the numerical values). First

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

) and 2) are not related to each other. Fixed that for you. Why should you expect the different types of information that come from different contexts to have the same numerical value? The whole point of On complexity and emergence is that notions of information and entropy are complete context

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I just explained 3 days after learning that the subject even existed here we sit at your feet while you explain all about it to us. that Shannon information has nothing to do with anything except data compression. Except

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Jan 30, 12:03 am, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not talking about fluid flow, OK I'm talking about simulating everything - potential and actual chemical reactions, etc. OK Water can be described by

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 28.01.2012 23:26 meekerdb said the following: On 1/27/2012 11:47 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... You disagree that engineers do not use thermodynamic entropy Yes. I disagreed that information has nothing to do with thermodynamic entropy, as you wrote above. You keep switching

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 29.01.2012 00:42 Russell Standish said the following: On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:05:57PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... In general we are surrounded devices that store information (hard discs, memory sticks, DVD, etc.). The information that these devices can store, I believe, is known

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

different contexts to have the same numerical value? The whole point of On complexity and emergence is that notions of information and entropy are complete context sensitive (that is not to say their subjective as such - people agreeing on the context will agree on the numerical values

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 04:30:38PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: The problem that I see is that the entropy changes when the temperature changes. Or do you claim that the entropy of the memory stick/DVD/hard disc remains the same when its temperature changes for example from 15 to 25 degrees?

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 09:41:27PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: On 1/28/2012 3:42 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On the other hand, if you just gave me the metallic platter from the hard disk, and did not restrict in any way the technology used to read and write the data, then in principle, the higher

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not talking about fluid flow, OK I'm talking about simulating everything - potential and actual chemical reactions, etc. OK Water can be described by multiplying the known interactions of H2O, But many, probably

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 28.01.2012 00:24 Craig Weinberg said the following: On Jan 27, 1:31 pm, John Clarkjohnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.comwrote: With the second law of thermodynamics, it seems like heat could only dissipate by heating something else

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 08:58:54AM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 27.01.2012 23:46 Russell Standish said the following: For one thing, it indicates to storing just two bits of information on these physical substrates is grossly inefficient! Well, you could contact governments then and try

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 28.01.2012 11:20 Russell Standish said the following: On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 08:58:54AM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 27.01.2012 23:46 Russell Standish said the following: For one thing, it indicates to storing just two bits of information on these physical substrates is grossly

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 1/27/2012 11:47 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 27.01.2012 23:03 meekerdb said the following: On 1/27/2012 12:43 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 27.01.2012 21:22 meekerdb said the following: On 1/27/2012 11:21 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 25.01.2012 21:25 meekerdb said the following: On

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 1/27/2012 11:58 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 27.01.2012 23:46 Russell Standish said the following: On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 08:27:31PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 26.01.2012 12:00 Russell Standish said the following: If you included these two bits, the thermodynamic entropy is two bits

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:05:57PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Let us take a hard disk. Can I save more information on it at higher or lower temperatures? This is a strictly ambiguous question. If we take the usual meaning of hard disk as including a particular apparatus (heads, controller

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 1/28/2012 3:42 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:05:57PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Let us take a hard disk. Can I save more information on it at higher or lower temperatures? This is a strictly ambiguous question. If we take the usual meaning of hard disk as

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Jan 28, 1:48 pm, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: You could much more easily write a probabilistic equation to simulate any given volume of water than the same volume of DNA, especially The motion of both

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Jan 26, 11:11 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2012 5:03 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Ok, so how does it effect the entropy of the structures? The red house, the white house, and the mixed house (even if an interesting pattern is made in the bricks), all behave in a

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: If a bucket of water has more of it than DNA, then the word information is meaningless. You would need to send more, far far more, dots and dashes down a wire to inform a intelligent entity what the position and velocity of

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: With the second law of thermodynamics, it seems like heat could only dissipate by heating something else up. The second law says that energy will tend to get diluted in space over time, and heat conducting to other

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 25.01.2012 21:25 meekerdb said the following: On 1/25/2012 11:47 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... Let me suggest a very simple case to understand better what you are saying. Let us consider a string 10 for simplicity. Let us consider the next cases. I will cite first the thermodynamic

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 1/27/2012 3:56 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Jan 26, 11:11 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2012 5:03 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Ok, so how does it effect the entropy of the structures? The red house, the white house, and the mixed house (even if an interesting pattern is

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 26.01.2012 12:00 Russell Standish said the following: On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Let me suggest a very simple case to understand better what you are saying. Let us consider a string 10 for simplicity. Let us consider the next cases. I will cite first the

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 26.01.2012 19:01 John Clark said the following: On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.comwrote: ... If I have red legos and white legos, and I build two opposite monochrome houses and one of mixed blocks, how in the world does that effect the entropy of the

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

On 27.01.2012 05:11 meekerdb said the following: On 1/26/2012 5:03 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: ... I'm just curious, not trying to argue with you about it. On a similar note, I was wondering about heat loss in a vacuum today. With the second law of thermodynamics, it seems like heat could

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