Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Sean, the word Crappy is very different to the word short. I would not describe Aprone's games as crappy simply because they lack in length the same way I would describe a delicious meal as crappy simply because I could've done with another course. I would suggest that you think about what you say on list more carefully in future, however this is not the first, or even fifth time you've expressed your opinions in in a way which is offensive to others, indeed many of your opinions come across as arrogant and hypercrytical of anything anyone does whether or not this is your intention I'm not sure, however I will confess that I do delete most of the messages from you unread, even on a topic of list discussion i'd otherwise read all messages from for this reason. I'm really sorry, but when trying to make considdered and rational comments about a programmer as tallented as jeremy and you come up with crappy as the best descriptive term you can find, - well let us just say that crappy is probably the most mild term i'd use for such occurrences. I'd ask you to please considder the art of constructive cryticism and politeness, however sinse so many people have brought this up before and you've planely taken absolutely no notice this would seem a pointless exercize. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Jeremy, i just wanted to tell you: please go on with your projects and go on with your own style of development. In this community the thing the people do best is to criticize without presenting any positive ideas. Your games are a big fresh air on this community and I would love to see you going on with your games. People can say that your games are short but some of them if they had the same ideas before, they could easily charge 30 dollars or more. If they say the games are short, why they didn't come up with the same ideas before? A Fsp multiplayer game only can please the majority of players and why noone did that before excepting the complicated case of audioquake? I understand why some people can be worried about your games because in my opinion it's not normal for this community that the best audiogame ever produced is still railracer which is 5 years old. Just my opinions so go on with your games. Because of my professional life and my small baby, I don't have much time to play but when I have some minutes I enjoy very much your swamp. Cheers, Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com Skype: joport3 Twitter: www.twitter.com/goncalvesjorge Webpage: www.jorgegoncalves.com On 11/18/2011 8:51 AM, Jeremy Kaldobsky wrote: It has been interesting reading the many thoughts on this topic. I haven't taken the time to respond to them each, but I have been reading them. I suppose the lesson for me to pull from all of this, is that I need to produce fewer games but longer ones. This also means developing the story lines more than I have been. To summarize it in a different way, I've been giving you TV shows but you want Movies. :D lol. Breaking my current habit might be tough, especially since I have so many game ideas planned or started, but I am taking these comments to heart and I will work on adapting myself to better meet the needs of the community. To Chris, it may be a quest I'm destined to fail, but my goal is to design a refreshable braille display that costs no more than $50 to build. Once again I need to stress that this is just my goal! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Thanks Shaun :D Yeah you'll be happy to know that the next update of Swamp seems to fix the problem of so much ammo. I wanted to have it posted already, and I'm working on it even now, but there are still quite a few things I need to finish up before I can post it. These comments jeremy were for those that think that the only good game has to have a story, well structured and lenghthy as. A game is fine even if its got a good, crappy or no plot at all unless ofcause its boring or difficult to master. Your games are sertainly not boring and I like works in progress testing concepts like online play. I must admit I never got the full hang of lunimals castaways and in fact most of the games but I'll get there. Swamp I seem to, rught now there is to much amo etc so its a bit pointless right now but you will probably fix that at some point as its still a work in progress. At some point I'd really like the story mode to be done and maybe an intro to that but for what it is, its quite good. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Thank you Jorge, I'm glad you hear you enjoy my games. :) I plan to continue making games, but I think I will try to spend a little more time on each one so that they become longer. Of course this does mean fewer overall titles, but it's worth trying since it seems like what the majority are asking for. Jeremy, i just wanted to tell you: please go on with your projects and go on with your own style of development. In this community the thing the people do best is to criticize without presenting any positive ideas. Your games are a big fresh air on this community and I would love to see you going on with your games. People can say that your games are short but some of them if they had the same ideas before, they could easily charge 30 dollars or more. If they say the games are short, why they didn't come up with the same ideas before? A Fsp multiplayer game only can please the majority of players and why noone did that before excepting the complicated case of audioquake? I understand why some people can be worried about your games because in my opinion it's not normal for this community that the best audiogame ever produced is still railracer which is 5 years old. Just my opinions so go on with your games. Because of my professional life and my small baby, I don't have much time to play but when I have some minutes I enjoy very much your swamp. Cheers, Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com Skype: joport3 Twitter: www.twitter.com/goncalvesjorge Webpage: www.jorgegoncalves.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Jeremy, That's always possible of course. I've found myself in that situation myself a time or too when I wrote something, meant it one way, but someone on list reads it and takes it another way. The lesson we should all keep in mind here is to be careful what we write, how we phrase things, and to avoid using words like crappy which implies negativity when used in a sentense. Upon reflection, rereading Shaun's post, I think what he meant to say is that he didn't care if you wrote something that turned out to be crappy as long as he continued getting new games on a regular basis rather than your games are crappy. However, the way it was written I took it to mean he was calling your games crappy. The message could have been written better, used different wording, because the meaning was not very clear to me at first. So like I said above we need to be careful how we phrase things as an off-handed remark can be interpreted completely different than was intended. Cheers! On 11/19/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Thank you Thomas. I'm actually wondering if Shaun's comment sounded differently than he intended it. This happens from time to time, and I am leaning in that direction because I don't ever remember anything blatantly negative coming from him in the past concerning my games. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt since I know I have not given it in the past, and wish I had. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hey jeramy Fancy a crack at a space strategy game? -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Kaldobsky Sent: 20 November 2011 13:28 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Thank you Jorge, I'm glad you hear you enjoy my games. :) I plan to continue making games, but I think I will try to spend a little more time on each one so that they become longer. Of course this does mean fewer overall titles, but it's worth trying since it seems like what the majority are asking for. Jeremy, i just wanted to tell you: please go on with your projects and go on with your own style of development. In this community the thing the people do best is to criticize without presenting any positive ideas. Your games are a big fresh air on this community and I would love to see you going on with your games. People can say that your games are short but some of them if they had the same ideas before, they could easily charge 30 dollars or more. If they say the games are short, why they didn't come up with the same ideas before? A Fsp multiplayer game only can please the majority of players and why noone did that before excepting the complicated case of audioquake? I understand why some people can be worried about your games because in my opinion it's not normal for this community that the best audiogame ever produced is still railracer which is 5 years old. Just my opinions so go on with your games. Because of my professional life and my small baby, I don't have much time to play but when I have some minutes I enjoy very much your swamp. Cheers, Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com Skype: joport3 Twitter: www.twitter.com/goncalvesjorge Webpage: www.jorgegoncalves.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Jeremy, Yes, in deed. That's something I'd personally like to see. You've had some really great games like Castaways but not enough different missions. I love Civilization type games like that, and what I'd like to see is a game like Castaways be improved to have 10 to 20 campaigns to choose from. Swamp is another great title, but I can see some areas of improvement. Like what's the back story? What's your specific objectives besides running around shooting hundreds of zombies?How about different levels or maps to play on? What I'm saying here in a nutshell you have games that are great in concept, but lack any kind of depth. You could spend an extra month or so just filling in the back story adding more quest objectives etc that would dramatically improve the game play I think. For example, In a game like Swamp I can see a World War Z type game where players send in custom maps of certain towns that are infected by zombie hords. The objective is to move in and clear the town of zombies to resettle by the human survivers. Even better is to have some sort of third-party quest editor that allows the end user to create custom maps and custom quest objectives which would ultimately boost replay value a lot. Before you know it I'm sure there would be several submissions of extra content you could add to the game that would all be to the good. Just some ideas to ponder. Cheers! On 11/20/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Thank you Jorge, I'm glad you hear you enjoy my games. :) I plan to continue making games, but I think I will try to spend a little more time on each one so that they become longer. Of course this does mean fewer overall titles, but it's worth trying since it seems like what the majority are asking for. Jeremy, i just wanted to tell you: please go on with your projects and go on with your own style of development. In this community the thing the people do best is to criticize without presenting any positive ideas. Your games are a big fresh air on this community and I would love to see you going on with your games. People can say that your games are short but some of them if they had the same ideas before, they could easily charge 30 dollars or more. If they say the games are short, why they didn't come up with the same ideas before? A Fsp multiplayer game only can please the majority of players and why noone did that before excepting the complicated case of audioquake? I understand why some people can be worried about your games because in my opinion it's not normal for this community that the best audiogame ever produced is still railracer which is 5 years old. Just my opinions so go on with your games. Because of my professional life and my small baby, I don't have much time to play but when I have some minutes I enjoy very much your swamp. Cheers, Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com Skype: joport3 Twitter: www.twitter.com/goncalvesjorge Webpage: www.jorgegoncalves.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Jorge, while I agree with your praise for Jeremy, I think it's unfair to say that people with other opinions haven't had constructive things to say. One may disagree with them, which in part I do, but they are valid. Jeremy's graceful response speaks well of him. I don't think we need defend him. Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Gonçalves Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 6:22 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Jeremy, i just wanted to tell you: please go on with your projects and go on with your own style of development. In this community the thing the people do best is to criticize without presenting any positive ideas. Your games are a big fresh air on this community and I would love to see you going on with your games. People can say that your games are short but some of them if they had the same ideas before, they could easily charge 30 dollars or more. If they say the games are short, why they didn't come up with the same ideas before? A Fsp multiplayer game only can please the majority of players and why noone did that before excepting the complicated case of audioquake? I understand why some people can be worried about your games because in my opinion it's not normal for this community that the best audiogame ever produced is still railracer which is 5 years old. Just my opinions so go on with your games. Because of my professional life and my small baby, I don't have much time to play but when I have some minutes I enjoy very much your swamp. Cheers, Jorge Gonçalves --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Jeremy, I will second Jorge to this extent. I like your frequent updates with cumulative improvements. It gives us a chance to give you feedback in manageable chunks, when you can make decisions with less being bogged down by previous coding decisions. If you're going in for more complex projects, I'd suggest keeping them modular as you have with Castaways and Lunimals in their updates. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
That's actually one of the things I'm considering, either an update of Anacreon, or possibly a real-time ship combat system with 3d movements and actual physics. And this brings up an interesting point. What do people think would be some good ways to represent 3d tracking of vessels/ missiles and other objects with a 2d soundscape? The first idea that came to me comes from the NVDA mouse-tracking world, where the cursor is represented by tones that pan for left-right placement and whose pitch increases as you go up the screen. I've come up with a couple of relatively easy ways of representing that system mathematically, but what I don't know is would it have the desired effect of allowing one to track multiple bogies by sound alone. (I realize that those of you with hearing difficulties that make localization hard would have problems with this system and am considering how to provide alternate means of accessing the information in real time.) So, given the choice between a high-level, explore and conquer game where you control an empire, move fleets about and interact with AI-driven enemies with the possibility of on-line play once I figure out how to do it? Or would you prefer a more tactical space-battle game where you command a ship or a fleet of ships in engagements either with AI-based enemies or later on line against human opponents, using several weapon types, all while dealing with zero gravity environments, vector physics and having to switch between several different control systems? I think these are the two projects that appeal to me most of the things I'm considering. Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Darren Harris Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 9:53 AM To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hey jeramy Fancy a crack at a space strategy game? -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Kaldobsky Sent: 20 November 2011 13:28 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Thank you Jorge, I'm glad you hear you enjoy my games. :) I plan to continue making games, but I think I will try to spend a little more time on each one so that they become longer. Of course this does mean fewer overall titles, but it's worth trying since it seems like what the majority are asking for. Jeremy, i just wanted to tell you: please go on with your projects and go on with your own style of development. In this community the thing the people do best is to criticize without presenting any positive ideas. Your games are a big fresh air on this community and I would love to see you going on with your games. People can say that your games are short but some of them if they had the same ideas before, they could easily charge 30 dollars or more. If they say the games are short, why they didn't come up with the same ideas before? A Fsp multiplayer game only can please the majority of players and why noone did that before excepting the complicated case of audioquake? I understand why some people can be worried about your games because in my opinion it's not normal for this community that the best audiogame ever produced is still railracer which is 5 years old. Just my opinions so go on with your games. Because of my professional life and my small baby, I don't have much time to play but when I have some minutes I enjoy very much your swamp. Cheers, Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com Skype: joport3 Twitter: www.twitter.com/goncalvesjorge Webpage: www.jorgegoncalves.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
As the originator of this debate, it certainly wasn't my intention to knock down what Jeremy has done. I'm quite aware how difficult programming is and that I myself have not yet been able to develope anything. However, I know being someone who at least does vaguely creative things such as writing and extremely serious music, comments and cryticisms, when phrased constructively can be useful to the creative process generally, Indeed I went off to an extremely intensive music school in summer chiefly for that purpose, to sing stuff I already knew and get people's comments on my performance. The ultimate decision is of course that of the creator, and he/she is quite free to disregard anything said, at the music school I mentioned there were highly useful comments but also some I decided I didn't agree with, it is stil true that cryticism when thought out reasonably and made in an effort to improve rather than merely an attempt to insult can be helpful. Heck, some of the ideas in Jeremy's games to begin with came from discussion with players, like the controls in swamp or the priority ai in castaways. My intention here was just to extend that sort of comment to cover JEremy's hole developement stratogy, sinse personally, while I think his games are exceptional, I think they could be even better if they were longer and more fleshed out. I hope this explains the reasons for my comments, and also shows that I certainly wasn't intending destructive cryticism at all. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Shaun, Well, as one of those gamers who prefers a game has a decent storyline, characters I can identify with, and so on that's where we disagree. I personally feel a game's storyline is very important to the success of the game. Take for example the Tomb Raider series. Since it was originally released in 1997 there have been 12 games, two movies, a handful of books, a limited line of Lara Croft action figures, etc all based on a video game series. Tomb Raider's success is in large part due to an engaging storyline and a leading main character well recieved by male and female gamers alike. On the flip side books and movies like Batman, Superman, Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc have been converted into video games as well. Again the main reason for this is because those stories and characters have mass appeal. If someone is a die-hard Harry Potter fan chances are they'll buy the Harry Potter game that goes with that book/movie. My point being is while I respect the work Jeremy is doing, enjoy the games for the most part, I still feel they fall short in areas of background story and main characters. They don't engage me on an emotional level, draw me into the game world, etc the way a game with an involving plot would. As far as length goes that depends on my mood at the time. However, generally speaking I like games that take hours to complete. I remember playing mainstream games like Galaxy Civilization and spending like five or six days on a single campaign. We don't have many accessible games that have that much depth or complexity. Time of Conflict is probably the closest we can get to that kind of strategy game right now. That's not to say shorter games aren't good. Just that I prefer something longer for maximum entertainment value. Cheers! On 11/20/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: These comments jeremy were for those that think that the only good game has to have a story, well structured and lenghthy as. A game is fine even if its got a good, crappy or no plot at all unless ofcause its boring or difficult to master. Your games are sertainly not boring and I like works in progress testing concepts like online play. I must admit I never got the full hang of lunimals castaways and in fact most of the games but I'll get there. Swamp I seem to, rught now there is to much amo etc so its a bit pointless right now but you will probably fix that at some point as its still a work in progress. At some point I'd really like the story mode to be done and maybe an intro to that but for what it is, its quite good. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Dark, Well said. That's my thoughts too. Jeremy can take or leave any suggestions--that's his right as the developer---but I think the games could be even that much better if some of the ideas, storyline, etc was fleshed out a bit. I know Jeremy likes producing things as quick as possible, but it just seems to me that the games are too rushed. Haven't been given enough time to flesh out some of the details. Cheers! On 11/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: As the originator of this debate, it certainly wasn't my intention to knock down what Jeremy has done. I'm quite aware how difficult programming is and that I myself have not yet been able to develope anything. However, I know being someone who at least does vaguely creative things such as writing and extremely serious music, comments and cryticisms, when phrased constructively can be useful to the creative process generally, Indeed I went off to an extremely intensive music school in summer chiefly for that purpose, to sing stuff I already knew and get people's comments on my performance. The ultimate decision is of course that of the creator, and he/she is quite free to disregard anything said, at the music school I mentioned there were highly useful comments but also some I decided I didn't agree with, it is stil true that cryticism when thought out reasonably and made in an effort to improve rather than merely an attempt to insult can be helpful. Heck, some of the ideas in Jeremy's games to begin with came from discussion with players, like the controls in swamp or the priority ai in castaways. My intention here was just to extend that sort of comment to cover JEremy's hole developement stratogy, sinse personally, while I think his games are exceptional, I think they could be even better if they were longer and more fleshed out. I hope this explains the reasons for my comments, and also shows that I certainly wasn't intending destructive cryticism at all. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
While I do agree with these feature requests, we should also remember the scale of the games. Jeremy's developing the games for free, without commercial reinforcement for the efforts. Perhaps if Jeremy were to sell the game after such details were added, or if a subscription rate for the server system were involved, these features could be merited. the problem here, of course, is that if Jeremy charges for the games, then there's a whole slew of other players who'll either complain about that aspect, or else pirate, or else hack. You can't win, really. Kai - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi Jeremy, Yes, in deed. That's something I'd personally like to see. You've had some really great games like Castaways but not enough different missions. I love Civilization type games like that, and what I'd like to see is a game like Castaways be improved to have 10 to 20 campaigns to choose from. Swamp is another great title, but I can see some areas of improvement. Like what's the back story? What's your specific objectives besides running around shooting hundreds of zombies?How about different levels or maps to play on? What I'm saying here in a nutshell you have games that are great in concept, but lack any kind of depth. You could spend an extra month or so just filling in the back story adding more quest objectives etc that would dramatically improve the game play I think. For example, In a game like Swamp I can see a World War Z type game where players send in custom maps of certain towns that are infected by zombie hords. The objective is to move in and clear the town of zombies to resettle by the human survivers. Even better is to have some sort of third-party quest editor that allows the end user to create custom maps and custom quest objectives which would ultimately boost replay value a lot. Before you know it I'm sure there would be several submissions of extra content you could add to the game that would all be to the good. Just some ideas to ponder. Cheers! On 11/20/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Thank you Jorge, I'm glad you hear you enjoy my games. :) I plan to continue making games, but I think I will try to spend a little more time on each one so that they become longer. Of course this does mean fewer overall titles, but it's worth trying since it seems like what the majority are asking for. Jeremy, i just wanted to tell you: please go on with your projects and go on with your own style of development. In this community the thing the people do best is to criticize without presenting any positive ideas. Your games are a big fresh air on this community and I would love to see you going on with your games. People can say that your games are short but some of them if they had the same ideas before, they could easily charge 30 dollars or more. If they say the games are short, why they didn't come up with the same ideas before? A Fsp multiplayer game only can please the majority of players and why noone did that before excepting the complicated case of audioquake? I understand why some people can be worried about your games because in my opinion it's not normal for this community that the best audiogame ever produced is still railracer which is 5 years old. Just my opinions so go on with your games. Because of my professional life and my small baby, I don't have much time to play but when I have some minutes I enjoy very much your swamp. Cheers, Jorge Gonçalves jopo...@hotmail.com Skype: joport3 Twitter: www.twitter.com/goncalvesjorge Webpage: www.jorgegoncalves.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Dark, the last think I thought you were doing was criticizing in a destructive manner. Lol, we have discussed game ideas in audiogames.net threads more than I can recall, and I agree that the only way things will ever change for the better is if the thoughts and concerns of the people are heard. While I don't blindly (oops) follow all suggestions, I am very happy to get everyone's opinions so that I know I'm not overlooking something. I'm also excited to watch a game grow and change based on the suggested ideas, since it will then have a much better chance of filling some need in the community. Usually if people are suggesting something, it's something they've been wanting to see perhaps in other games as well. As the originator of this debate, it certainly wasn't my intention to knock down what Jeremy has done. I'm quite aware how difficult programming is and that I myself have not yet been able to develope anything. However, I know being someone who at least does vaguely creative things such as writing and extremely serious music, comments and cryticisms, when phrased constructively can be useful to the creative process generally, Indeed I went off to an extremely intensive music school in summer chiefly for that purpose, to sing stuff I already knew and get people's comments on my performance. The ultimate decision is of course that of the creator, and he/she is quite free to disregard anything said, at the music school I mentioned there were highly useful comments but also some I decided I didn't agree with, it is stil true that cryticism when thought out reasonably and made in an effort to improve rather than merely an attempt to insult can be helpful. Heck, some of the ideas in Jeremy's games to begin with came from discussion with players, like the controls in swamp or the priority ai in castaways. My intention here was just to extend that sort of comment to cover JEremy's hole developement stratogy, sinse personally, while I think his games are exceptional, I think they could be even better if they were longer and more fleshed out. I hope this explains the reasons for my comments, and also shows that I certainly wasn't intending destructive cryticism at all. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Chris, The best way to track targets in a 3d world is to come up with a targeting system like GMA Tank Commander uses. You'd have one type of beep to handle the horizontal axis and a different one for the vertical axis. The beeps would increase in pitch as you center the enemy target in the crosshairs and decrease in pitch the further you are off target. Plus rather than trying to target multiple targets at once you might want to have some kind of target selecter---again like Tank Commander--so you can focus on one specific target at a time. Its not only easier to track using your targeting beeps, but all real time information like distance, direction, altitude, etc will be related to the target that the player is attempting to attack. For instance, if I'm in a starfighter and in combat with an enemy starfighter I will likely want all the combat data pertaining to that target at hand. I wouldn't want the speech output to read combat data for every enemy ship in the area before getting around to telling me what I need to know. That kind of thing will get the player killed or cause some unnecessary delay in the game play. So allowing the player to select and scan a specific target at a time is the best way to relay information. As far as commanding a single ship or a fleet of ships that would be your call. Either one is good. Perhaps a compromise like Tank Commander level 6 where you command one ship, but have x number of A.I. ships you can order to strike an enemy target or follow you into a combat situation. The player wouldn't have to necessarily monitor all the allied ships all of the time, as the A.I. would handle most of the combat themselves--but the player could give the other ships orders such as follow, hold position, explore sector x, whatever. HTH On 11/20/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: That's actually one of the things I'm considering, either an update of Anacreon, or possibly a real-time ship combat system with 3d movements and actual physics. And this brings up an interesting point. What do people think would be some good ways to represent 3d tracking of vessels/ missiles and other objects with a 2d soundscape? The first idea that came to me comes from the NVDA mouse-tracking world, where the cursor is represented by tones that pan for left-right placement and whose pitch increases as you go up the screen. I've come up with a couple of relatively easy ways of representing that system mathematically, but what I don't know is would it have the desired effect of allowing one to track multiple bogies by sound alone. (I realize that those of you with hearing difficulties that make localization hard would have problems with this system and am considering how to provide alternate means of accessing the information in real time.) So, given the choice between a high-level, explore and conquer game where you control an empire, move fleets about and interact with AI-driven enemies with the possibility of on-line play once I figure out how to do it? Or would you prefer a more tactical space-battle game where you command a ship or a fleet of ships in engagements either with AI-based enemies or later on line against human opponents, using several weapon types, all while dealing with zero gravity environments, vector physics and having to switch between several different control systems? I think these are the two projects that appeal to me most of the things I'm considering. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
-Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 11:16 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi Shaun, Well, as one of those gamers who prefers a game has a decent storyline, characters I can identify with, and so on that's where we disagree. I personally feel a game's storyline is very important to the success of the game. snip Tom, I think one has to be careful about using the word success in this discussion. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Angry Birds is among the most successful games in history, despite its lack of a detailed back story. It is much more successful than the movie Rio to which it's related. A question, what games in our market have received the most play? I don't actually know the answer to that, but I'll wager it's the simpler ones, simply because we have a segment of our population that prefers them. I happen to be with you on the complexity front and story is an issue. Many of the suggestions I've made re: Swamp have been to work towards including story elements and a reason for people to play and cooperate that isn't purely mechanical. But it appears from your message that you're equating our shared tastes with success, and I'm not sure the market mainstream or otherwise supports you. I suspect that casual gaming as the aforementioned Angry Birds or Farmville and its associated spin-offs leaves titles to our taste in the dust for sales, market penetration and ad-based revenue. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Tom. Good thoughts here, but in the vein of this discussion, I'd like to push the envelope a bit. One of the main challenges for a modern fighter pilot is maintaining situational awareness while having enough focus to do the rather complex tasks of flying and fighting simultaneously. I agree that the GMA solution is a viable one, but a sighted player would have to visually sort out various target tracks, then designate one for weapons-lock. This is a subjective feeling, but the LW/GMA solution doesn't provide me with the chaotic stress feeling that I understand pilots in this situation to feel. It may be that I won't come up with anything better and will default to that solution as good and proven, though as I don't intend to lock weapons fire to ship facing in the same way that LW and GTC do, it will be more complex. If I do the tactical space combat game, it's going to require time and effort to master the controls, just as it would to learn the switchology of a fighter plane. I'm considering a mix of keyboard and mouse input. But all this is at early stages thus far, so I reserve the right to change my mind. Hell, I'm still learning the BGT interface. Just got an old Comp Sci exercise working to get my feet wet, moving on to solving the Towers of Hanoi problem next again as an exercise. I take it then you're voting for the tactical space game? Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 12:41 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi Chris, The best way to track targets in a 3d world is to come up with a targeting system like GMA Tank Commander uses. You'd have one type of beep to handle the horizontal axis and a different one for the vertical axis. The beeps would increase in pitch as you center the enemy target in the crosshairs and decrease in pitch the further you are off target. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Shaun, No offense, but calling Jeremy's games crappy code is pretty offensive. Although I may disagree with his choice of programming languages etc his games are both good and he tries to make his games as stable as possible given the short turn around time between releases. I haven't encountered anything I would call crappy code. So please don't be so negative when commenting on his work. Thanks. On 11/19/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I don't mind your little game ideas its better than those that are so scared over preorders and release dates that we get nothing for ages. If you want to release your crappy code to the community and slowly build things up all over the place thats fine anyway. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Shaun, Well, I don't put release dates on anything because I know I can't meet that deadline. I know my schedule is rather hectic and things always come up to delay development. Just this year I had two deaths in the family, was sick twice for several weeks on end, plus other personal emergencies came up which took a front seat in terms of priorities. As a result if I set dates and constantly broke them people would be very upset with me, begin calling me a liar, and there are some very vain individuals in this community who would be willing to crucify me for it. So I don't promise anything I can't deliver. That's good business sense as far as I can see. As far as preorders goes I think we can still do it provided it is handled differently. For instance, James North began taking preorders for Raceway, Montezuma's Revenge, and Max Shrapnal before he even began programming the game. Well, the problem there is its hard to set a release date when its going to take at least six months to a year to produce the game, and if a developer sets a release date it may not necessarily take account of unexpected delays between start time and release. A bad way to handle preorders in my opinion. A better way of handling it is to write the game in advance, maybe have a fully working beta, and take preorders when there is more or less a decent demo or fully operational program to actually sell. If the game needs sounds, music, whatever that can be added after the preorders start coming in rather than paying upfront for those things before the game is developed. This way there is going to be a quick turn around time for the final release rather than months or years of development time between preorder and release. Cheers! On 11/19/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well I also aggree. With all the hooha over preorders and other release dates and things of that nature loads of devs are scared to put any date on anything. As a result apart from the lose hacker groups on the audiogames forum most of the major devs are silent for months even years. What aprone is doing isn't perfect, in fact as a game related thing its quite short and crappy. However its testing concepts which is good. Although his games are quite simple we are at least moving the framework foreward for bits and bobs and building things up from the simple crappy projects to good ones and fully community driven to. And in the mean time we are testing things such as online chat, multiplayer and other things which I forget. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Dark, Yeah, that's definitely a good thing. As you know Mysteries of the Ancients and Paralous Hearts are only a drop in the bucket compared to the potential of the 2d platformer genre. On 11/18/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I'll look forward to it. in fact it's an interesting coincidence that after years of 1D side scrollers, perilous hearts also features a much more 2D style of gameplay, probably will come out at about the same time as Mota, but has been developed independently. seeing how both games tackle the concept will certainly be interesting, pluss it's likely to actually boost sales of both games sinse if people buy one and enjoy it they may well turn to the other. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
If jeremy's games are crappy code, then we need a lot more crappy code around here! :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Shaun, it's all well and good to go criticizing someone's work in a negative fashion, but one should attempt to do likewise or else to trump the effort before delivering such denouncements. Jeremy's regularly delivered games for people to play, be they finished projects or proofs of concept. Until you've done likewise, I believe that a modicum of temperance might be in order. Part of the reason developers for the audio gaming community are far and few in between is that there's such a ready group of naysayers and denigrators who, ironically, still play the games despite a public front of contempt. Rather than flat-out decrying someone's efforts as crappy or otherwise, might it not be better to deliver constructive criticism, and where possible, advice and assistance? Kai - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! If jeremy's games are crappy code, then we need a lot more crappy code around here! :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Thank you Thomas. I'm actually wondering if Shaun's comment sounded differently than he intended it. This happens from time to time, and I am leaning in that direction because I don't ever remember anything blatantly negative coming from him in the past concerning my games. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt since I know I have not given it in the past, and wish I had. Hi Shaun, No offense, but calling Jeremy's games crappy code is pretty offensive. Although I may disagree with his choice of programming languages etc his games are both good and he tries to make his games as stable as possible given the short turn around time between releases. I haven't encountered anything I would call crappy code. So please don't be so negative when commenting on his work. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Jeremy. I also think what actually happen is that he quoted a comment jokingly refering to your games as crappy code being preferable over code that took ages to write. Score one for using propper punctuation... From a personal side, your games gave me many ideas that I hope to expand upon to create something new in my holiday time. On 11/20/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Thank you Thomas. I'm actually wondering if Shaun's comment sounded differently than he intended it. This happens from time to time, and I am leaning in that direction because I don't ever remember anything blatantly negative coming from him in the past concerning my games. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt since I know I have not given it in the past, and wish I had. Hi Shaun, No offense, but calling Jeremy's games crappy code is pretty offensive. Although I may disagree with his choice of programming languages etc his games are both good and he tries to make his games as stable as possible given the short turn around time between releases. I haven't encountered anything I would call crappy code. So please don't be so negative when commenting on his work. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Yes, I've downloaded BGT and am noodling over several concepts myself. We'll see which one catches fire. Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Willem Venter Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:31 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi Jeremy. I also think what actually happen is that he quoted a comment jokingly refering to your games as crappy code being preferable over code that took ages to write. Score one for using propper punctuation... From a personal side, your games gave me many ideas that I hope to expand upon to create something new in my holiday time. On 11/20/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Thank you Thomas. I'm actually wondering if Shaun's comment sounded differently than he intended it. This happens from time to time, and I am leaning in that direction because I don't ever remember anything blatantly negative coming from him in the past concerning my games. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt since I know I have not given it in the past, and wish I had. Hi Shaun, No offense, but calling Jeremy's games crappy code is pretty offensive. Although I may disagree with his choice of programming languages etc his games are both good and he tries to make his games as stable as possible given the short turn around time between releases. I haven't encountered anything I would call crappy code. So please don't be so negative when commenting on his work. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
I didn't mean that they were crappy, they are quite good in fact, but from the standpoint for those that want a longer game with story etc they are crappy. I myself don't actually care even if the plot doesn't exist. I am happy that we are getting so many short games out there as long as we are not bored. Swamp is simple and promises to get more so its ok. I have never mastered the rest of them. At 04:21 p.m. 19/11/2011 +, you wrote: If jeremy's games are crappy code, then we need a lot more crappy code around here! :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Excellent news Willem, I wish you luck on your coding and look forward to seeing what you come up with! Hi Jeremy. I also think what actually happen is that he quoted a comment jokingly refering to your games as crappy code being preferable over code that took ages to write. Score one for using propper punctuation... From a personal side, your games gave me many ideas that I hope to expand upon to create something new in my holiday time. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Even though it seems that my approach of spreading new game concepts into the community wasn't the best idea, I'll be very happy to see that it worked in a few cases. I gleefully look forward to what you and Willem come up with in your respective projects. Yes, I've downloaded BGT and am noodling over several concepts myself. We'll see which one catches fire. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
These comments jeremy were for those that think that the only good game has to have a story, well structured and lenghthy as. A game is fine even if its got a good, crappy or no plot at all unless ofcause its boring or difficult to master. Your games are sertainly not boring and I like works in progress testing concepts like online play. I must admit I never got the full hang of lunimals castaways and in fact most of the games but I'll get there. Swamp I seem to, rught now there is to much amo etc so its a bit pointless right now but you will probably fix that at some point as its still a work in progress. At some point I'd really like the story mode to be done and maybe an intro to that but for what it is, its quite good. At 03:54 p.m. 19/11/2011 -0800, you wrote: Thank you Thomas. I'm actually wondering if Shaun's comment sounded differently than he intended it. This happens from time to time, and I am leaning in that direction because I don't ever remember anything blatantly negative coming from him in the past concerning my games. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt since I know I have not given it in the past, and wish I had. Hi Shaun, No offense, but calling Jeremy's games crappy code is pretty offensive. Although I may disagree with his choice of programming languages etc his games are both good and he tries to make his games as stable as possible given the short turn around time between releases. I haven't encountered anything I would call crappy code. So please don't be so negative when commenting on his work. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
well I'll be looking foreward to another game. Something to test in my time in the holidays. At 02:31 a.m. 20/11/2011 +0200, you wrote: Hi Jeremy. I also think what actually happen is that he quoted a comment jokingly refering to your games as crappy code being preferable over code that took ages to write. Score one for using propper punctuation... From a personal side, your games gave me many ideas that I hope to expand upon to create something new in my holiday time. On 11/20/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Thank you Thomas. I'm actually wondering if Shaun's comment sounded differently than he intended it. This happens from time to time, and I am leaning in that direction because I don't ever remember anything blatantly negative coming from him in the past concerning my games. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt since I know I have not given it in the past, and wish I had. Hi Shaun, No offense, but calling Jeremy's games crappy code is pretty offensive. Although I may disagree with his choice of programming languages etc his games are both good and he tries to make his games as stable as possible given the short turn around time between releases. I haven't encountered anything I would call crappy code. So please don't be so negative when commenting on his work. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
yep brian. Indeed I first found out about eamon and eamon delux by seeing a reference to eamon and realizing that it was the same game as Adora were planning. whether adora' would've adapted the original Eamon games to be self voicing, or written something new just with the same basic premise and world I don't know. It's quite a shame though, sinse eamon is a great game and system. One thing I particularly like is the way that you can have one persistant character through many rpg settings, and getting loot actually has a serious point sinse you can sell it to improve when you get back to the main hall. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Actually chris that was very much the stratogy with entombed. there were ten or so betas of the first eight floors to the dungeon produced in the first 18 months before the game went commercial, after that point there were several more commercial releases that fixed bugs and added to the game, so it is actually possible to have a successive commercial release so long as you make sure that there is a decent sized enough demo for people to play and to add to before you bring out the ful game and start working on that for your paying customers. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
It has been interesting reading the many thoughts on this topic. I haven't taken the time to respond to them each, but I have been reading them. I suppose the lesson for me to pull from all of this, is that I need to produce fewer games but longer ones. This also means developing the story lines more than I have been. To summarize it in a different way, I've been giving you TV shows but you want Movies. :D lol. Breaking my current habit might be tough, especially since I have so many game ideas planned or started, but I am taking these comments to heart and I will work on adapting myself to better meet the needs of the community. To Chris, it may be a quest I'm destined to fail, but my goal is to design a refreshable braille display that costs no more than $50 to build. Once again I need to stress that this is just my goal! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi tom. the mathematical point is absolutely true about 3D games, and also games that simulate any sort of physics, such as sports, racing or flight sim titles. However, from what I've gathered it should stil be possible (especially with bgt that handles a lot of the variables as standard maths), to create something relatively detailed without going into that sort of thing. For instance, eventually I'd love to write my own turn based, textual rpg with exploration and a detailed combat system (I already have a system in mind in fact). In a system such as DD, all the calculations are essentially to do with probability and randomness, and most could be pretty easily understood, indeed sinse DD is a tabletop system, the calculations have to be easy enough for gms' and players to make on the fly during a game. the most complex thing involved would be the ai of computer opponents, but if I understood coorectly this could be worked out by a simple series of if/then statements, eg, if player enters the staggered condition, vampire will attempt to grapple, and if grappled vampire will attempt suck blood on the next turn. Even a 2D map entombed style with locations to search, objects to find etc shouldn't be too hard to work out sinse your only dealing with a lot of objects that change coordinates and initiate actions at various points. I admit that as a relatively experienced rpg nut, I probably have an advantage here in viewing systems, stil, it might be good if some developers with bgt thought numbers first reaction later, sinse it's far easier to create an interesting game by simple number fiddling than it is to create a real time game without the maths and angle calculation to back it up. I also will confess, I'm a great believer in the philosophy, if you really want to learn something you can! to illustrate, I have no desire whatsoever to learn to speak italian, stil less German. However once I am required to sing in either language, sinse I want to do a good job and have clear words, i've had to learn a fair degree of pronunciation, and indeed will probably do an Italian speaking course at some point just to make certain i'm understandable (unclear singers who just fudge their way through all the words are a dislike). This is a case where something I wish to do, namely sing requires this knolidge, so I'll learn it! If I go into programming, well it'll be time to grapple with the mathematics, should I wish to create something that requires it, sinse I would much rather spend my btime learning the necessary information to do what I want, than try and fudge my way through without it. this is indeed why i always insist on a phonetic translation of whatever I'm singing and a word by word account so that i can get the emphasis right, and also why I would spend my time learning the correct matheematics if I decided to try making for example a 2D platform game. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Decota. I'm afraid your description about a microcosm of the games differences isn't correct. saying fighting games are the same because characters punch eash other in the face is like saying all card games are the same because they use 52 playing cards, so generic as to not matter. while I fully agree with you that ambience, plot, cutscenes etc make a huge difference, these aren't everything. look at a game like chillingham as an example. relatively good acting, semi decent music, fully self voicing, but no replay value at all! The games system also has to matter. Look at super marrio brothers. A very simple game with a rather illogical plot and characters which are more convenient and fun than actually serious, yet it has some of the best mechanical play ever seen in a platformer, and there are people playing it even now 25 years after it was made! As regards space, I'm less convinced it's just the dvd media that makes the difference at all. Graphics afterall take up far more space than audio for a start. As we've said before give an audio game dev the same amount of money and resources as a mainstream game, and you'd have something similarly amazing on your hands. Comparing audio games to indi graphical games with a similar budgit and resources is far more fair. Here there is stil a disparity, but not quite as huge. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Aprone. I'd say more it's a case of you've been giving us tv show pilots, but we want the full 100 episodes with christmas special, actor reunions and internet aggravation! As I said, castaways could easily be a far longer and more complex game, and indeed che's suggestion of giving people tools to work with that can be used without programming knolidge to expand the game is a good one here. I think the point however here is the one thomas made. sinse there are so few serious developers, simply pumping out good ideas and hoping that someone picks them up might not be the best stratogy. As I said, entombed took two years to develope, had loads of sub versions, and is possibly the ost successful audio game of all time. We haven't (unfortunatley), seen a spat of dungeon crawl rpg clones, but we have got an amazing game out of it! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
I wonder if there's a way to desing a game design wizard? This would would ask simple questions as to game interface, (2 d or 3 d) and would do all the script writing in the background with you suplying only the music and the text (if any) to go along with it. Just a thought. I'd love to desing audio games and have an idea for an awesome one, butr I can't getg my head around the scripting aspect of something like BGT; thought I think it's the easiest designer so far. Tim - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi Decota. I'm afraid your description about a microcosm of the games differences isn't correct. saying fighting games are the same because characters punch eash other in the face is like saying all card games are the same because they use 52 playing cards, so generic as to not matter. while I fully agree with you that ambience, plot, cutscenes etc make a huge difference, these aren't everything. look at a game like chillingham as an example. relatively good acting, semi decent music, fully self voicing, but no replay value at all! The games system also has to matter. Look at super marrio brothers. A very simple game with a rather illogical plot and characters which are more convenient and fun than actually serious, yet it has some of the best mechanical play ever seen in a platformer, and there are people playing it even now 25 years after it was made! As regards space, I'm less convinced it's just the dvd media that makes the difference at all. Graphics afterall take up far more space than audio for a start. As we've said before give an audio game dev the same amount of money and resources as a mainstream game, and you'd have something similarly amazing on your hands. Comparing audio games to indi graphical games with a similar budgit and resources is far more fair. Here there is stil a disparity, but not quite as huge. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi jeramy, People on here tend to put out the simple simple games all the time which gets boring. Keep up your individuality! Different games like castaways or even bigger games like we discussed over private email ages ago would be more than welcomed I think -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Kaldobsky Sent: 17 November 2011 17:55 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! While I wish it wasn't true, I haven't been around long enough to see the same patterns as you have. It does make sense though, that if most of the developers are new to making games they would settle with the simpler space invader approach, regardless of what other ideas were floating around. This is very unfortunate. I may adjust my strategy a bit. Hi Aprone. I fully agree on the matter of braille displays etc, pricing is insane, just add the word accessibility and you can pretty much stick on another zero, heck I've seen a hand held device which does just what your colour recognition program does which would set you back 150 pounds (about 270 dollars I think). So I fully agree with the developement your doing there. With games though, I'm afraid I'm not sure whether your methodology here sutes the circumstances. For a start, there are actually very few professional standard programmers making audio games, in fact you could probably count them without taking off your socks. Subtract those like Justin from bsc and Liam urven who's life circumstances aren't conducive to making games, and your left with a very small group of people indeed. This bunch are rather independent all have their own ideas and styles, all have knolidge of what they want to make, and won't do something simply because there is a community idea out there. to illustrate, look at stratogy games. Vip gameszone came up with galaxy ranger, which is sort of an action stratogy hybrid in I believe 2003, yet we didn't see another even vaguely stratogy audio game (not counting battleships), until 2007 with sound rts. Sound rts was amazingly well recieved and enjoyed by many people and you would've expected a huge wave of that style of game, yet (not counting castaways), the only thing to follow was time of conflict from Gma, which I'm pretty sure was in developement when sound rts was released anyway. This isn't to say there aren't trends in audio games, only that they have far less impact, sinse the more complex the game type and genre, the more difficult producing games with that concept and idea is, and the fewer people will attempt it, if indeed anyone will at all! Look at entombed. possibly the most successful audio game of all time, and produced in less than two years. Yet have we seen any similar rpgs? heck no! While I agree we have had many arcade games, I don't think this is entirely the fault of fashion. As Philip's example games show, left right sterrio targiting is sort of the default baseline in audio games, one reason why there are so many example and practice games like that now, especially from those who are working with bgt for the first time, which is indeed why it's only been now that we've had to introduce the database submission guidelines for audiogames.net to say what counts as a game and what counts as a programming practice. I think therefore that the reason there are so many arcade games is as much a consequence of programming skill, than deliberate choice, indeed there has been a major desire for more complex audio games right from when i first started playing them myself in 2006. Thus, I'm afraid your approach of introducing concept demos and then hoping people will pick up the idea and run with it just doesn't seem as logical to me given the circumstances, and given that so many people (including me), really! want more complex and interesting audio games to play, in one sense it actually feels a litle dissatisfying. Personally, I'd say there are two ways you could change the situation. One of them, is as Jason Alan did with entombed, write a complex game yourself and thus contribute something to posterity with audio games, which might not change the face of what people develope, but is certainly one! example out there of a complex game. The second, is to acknolidge that your writing a concept demo in an example game, and thus create some sort of open source affair (possibly in bgt), to hopefully give some of the programmers who are making arcade games a bit of a leg up into something more complex, and thus show how it could be done. Suppose for instance you created a cut down version of castaways with three people, a random map and five jobs, hunter, gatherer, tool maker lumberjack, cook. the hunter needs tools, the gatherer does not but only gathers a small amount of food, and the tool maker
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Tim, I don't think that such a thing is possible if one wanted to produce games of any depth at all. The number of decisions is just too high. I've looked at the BGT language and it's a cut-down version of c++, which, while very clearly explained in its documentation (kudos Philip, you've done a good job here) is still a fully-fledged programming language, though with some of the fiddly bits abstracted nicely for the programmer. It's a learning curve I feel comfy tackling, so y'all can expect something in the not-too-distant future, though which of my several ideas I'll start with I haven't decided yet. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Lol Tim! Sounds to good to be true! -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Tim Kilgore Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 6:10 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! I wonder if there's a way to desing a game design wizard? This would would ask simple questions as to game interface, (2 d or 3 d) and would do all the script writing in the background with you suplying only the music and the text (if any) to go along with it. Just a thought. I'd love to desing audio games and have an idea for an awesome one, butr I can't getg my head around the scripting aspect of something like BGT; thought I think it's the easiest designer so far. Tim - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi Decota. I'm afraid your description about a microcosm of the games differences isn't correct. saying fighting games are the same because characters punch eash other in the face is like saying all card games are the same because they use 52 playing cards, so generic as to not matter. while I fully agree with you that ambience, plot, cutscenes etc make a huge difference, these aren't everything. look at a game like chillingham as an example. relatively good acting, semi decent music, fully self voicing, but no replay value at all! The games system also has to matter. Look at super marrio brothers. A very simple game with a rather illogical plot and characters which are more convenient and fun than actually serious, yet it has some of the best mechanical play ever seen in a platformer, and there are people playing it even now 25 years after it was made! As regards space, I'm less convinced it's just the dvd media that makes the difference at all. Graphics afterall take up far more space than audio for a start. As we've said before give an audio game dev the same amount of money and resources as a mainstream game, and you'd have something similarly amazing on your hands. Comparing audio games to indi graphical games with a similar budgit and resources is far more fair. Here there is stil a disparity, but not quite as huge. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. _ NOD32 EMON 6640 (2018) information _ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system http://www.eset.com _ NOD32 EMON 6640 (2018) information _ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi, Wizards just are not practical. What if we were't looking at a game with an interface. What if we were creating a board game? Then the whole thing is just useless. The problem withthat design, then, is the limited scope factor--there just is no comparison to a programming language like C++ or ascripting language like BGT. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Tim Kilgore Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 5:10 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! I wonder if there's a way to desing a game design wizard? This would would ask simple questions as to game interface, (2 d or 3 d) and would do all the script writing in the background with you suplying only the music and the text (if any) to go along with it. Just a thought. I'd love to desing audio games and have an idea for an awesome one, butr I can't getg my head around the scripting aspect of something like BGT; thought I think it's the easiest designer so far. Tim - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi Decota. I'm afraid your description about a microcosm of the games differences isn't correct. saying fighting games are the same because characters punch eash other in the face is like saying all card games are the same because they use 52 playing cards, so generic as to not matter. while I fully agree with you that ambience, plot, cutscenes etc make a huge difference, these aren't everything. look at a game like chillingham as an example. relatively good acting, semi decent music, fully self voicing, but no replay value at all! The games system also has to matter. Look at super marrio brothers. A very simple game with a rather illogical plot and characters which are more convenient and fun than actually serious, yet it has some of the best mechanical play ever seen in a platformer, and there are people playing it even now 25 years after it was made! As regards space, I'm less convinced it's just the dvd media that makes the difference at all. Graphics afterall take up far more space than audio for a start. As we've said before give an audio game dev the same amount of money and resources as a mainstream game, and you'd have something similarly amazing on your hands. Comparing audio games to indi graphical games with a similar budgit and resources is far more fair. Here there is stil a disparity, but not quite as huge. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/4022 - Release Date: 11/17/11 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi, Right. I can definitely see how Jeremy's smaller games could have a huge impact long term. For example, Swamp---although fairly simple--already explores two mainstream concepts in accessible form. Through Swamp many gamers are finding out for the first time that using the mouse for input isn't a bad thing if done correctly. This in turn may increase gamers desire for more mouse controlled input. Something that has been around for ages in mainstream gaming, but little explored by VI developers. Then, there is the entire issue of online game play. This is another issue only lightly explored by VI game developers, and is done well in Swamp. All mainstream FPS games I've played for the last 15 years or so generally had some kind of online death match mode that allowed gamers to compete online against one another. Swamp nicely demonstrates this concept in an accessible form. We could say Audio Quake got there first, but it never seemed fully accessible the way Swamp is. I can clearly see this concept going way beyond Swamp if someone cares to look into this further. So I do agree what Jeremy is doing is very helpful in its own way. I'm just not sure other game developers have the skills or desire to follow Jeremy's lead in this. We'll just have to wait and see. On 11/17/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: Good stuff to chew on here. I do think that Jeremy's style actually lends itself to getting around the development lag time issues though, as he creates continual excitement about his games by frequent updates, which aren't always huge in and of themselves, but taken cumulatively change the games quite a bit through their development cycle. My long post earlier was simply to encourage him (or others for that matter) to take that idea and run with it in a larger field. Yes, it still might take three years to come up with the fully finished game, but we'd be playing something within a month, and then something a bit more complex in another month. Along the way, we'd have direct and demonstrably effective input on things that work well and that don't. It's not possibly a viable method for a commercial game, since it relies on mass penetration before a commercial product is ready, but I could envision a kick-starter campaign or something like it to maintain interest and bring in some fundage for continued development, purchase of new hardware or software. I would certainly contribute to Jeremy's server fund as and when he outgrows his current configuration. There's a new model of development in this market here, and I'd like to see others take it and run with it, as well as encouraging Jeremy in his continued efforts. And dude, low-cost braille!? If he can make that work, he'll get some fine Scotch whiskey from me at a bare minimum. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Besides if you have a specific set of questions that limits what you can create. Considering the limited types of games out there at the moment we don't need anymore limitations. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Hayden Presley Sent: 18 November 2011 14:23 To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi, Wizards just are not practical. What if we were't looking at a game with an interface. What if we were creating a board game? Then the whole thing is just useless. The problem withthat design, then, is the limited scope factor--there just is no comparison to a programming language like C++ or ascripting language like BGT. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Tim Kilgore Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 5:10 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! I wonder if there's a way to desing a game design wizard? This would would ask simple questions as to game interface, (2 d or 3 d) and would do all the script writing in the background with you suplying only the music and the text (if any) to go along with it. Just a thought. I'd love to desing audio games and have an idea for an awesome one, butr I can't getg my head around the scripting aspect of something like BGT; thought I think it's the easiest designer so far. Tim - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi Decota. I'm afraid your description about a microcosm of the games differences isn't correct. saying fighting games are the same because characters punch eash other in the face is like saying all card games are the same because they use 52 playing cards, so generic as to not matter. while I fully agree with you that ambience, plot, cutscenes etc make a huge difference, these aren't everything. look at a game like chillingham as an example. relatively good acting, semi decent music, fully self voicing, but no replay value at all! The games system also has to matter. Look at super marrio brothers. A very simple game with a rather illogical plot and characters which are more convenient and fun than actually serious, yet it has some of the best mechanical play ever seen in a platformer, and there are people playing it even now 25 years after it was made! As regards space, I'm less convinced it's just the dvd media that makes the difference at all. Graphics afterall take up far more space than audio for a start. As we've said before give an audio game dev the same amount of money and resources as a mainstream game, and you'd have something similarly amazing on your hands. Comparing audio games to indi graphical games with a similar budgit and resources is far more fair. Here there is stil a disparity, but not quite as huge. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/4022 - Release Date: 11/17/11 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Tim, Sorry, but no. Coming up with a game creation wizard simply is not practical for any kind of game design. There are too many factors that absolutely have to be coded by hand and will not work properly using generic code. Using a wizard will only get you so far before you encounter some kind of major limitation not supported by the wizard. For example, let's talk about the Adrift Generator. Its basically a wizard for rapidly creating text adventures for the Adrift Runner. Its ok as text adventure systems goes, but I've encountered plenty of limitations as well. For instance, if I wanted to create a full blown RPG I really could not do that because the Adrift Adventure System doesn't really support various skills and stats the way a table top RPG does. Using variables in Adrift only will allow the developer to create a very crude RPG stats system. To do it right a developer would be better off using a fully qualified programming language instead. Another issue is speech output. Adrift is a mainstream product, is accessible as far as text adventure systems go, but I'd prefer something that reads automatically like Winfrotz TTS does. Since the Adrift Runner does not have SAPI 5 support using a fully qualified programming language like Visual Basic, C#, C++, etc I could add SAPI support and thus increase accessibility just by upgrading from a wizard interface to manually programming the game by hand. Bottom line, wizards just don't work. They might allow you to create something enjoyable, fun for a while, but are limited in what they can do. Its like anything else in life. If you work hard at something chances are you will be rewarded by your efforts. If you try to take the easy way out your results will be far less rewarding than they could be. That's why BGT uses a scripting language. It simplifies the process of creating games, but is open ended enough to allow you to program/code anything you can imagine rather than being limited to any specific game style or type. What a person like you really needs is an open source sample of different types of games like an FPS, side-scroller, racing sim, whatever. Then, you could see how all the code fits together and still be able to modify it as you learn. This is not as restrictive as a wizard and still teaches you as you go. Cheers! On 11/18/11, Tim Kilgore tim8...@cox.net wrote: I wonder if there's a way to desing a game design wizard? This would would ask simple questions as to game interface, (2 d or 3 d) and would do all the script writing in the background with you suplying only the music and the text (if any) to go along with it. Just a thought. I'd love to desing audio games and have an idea for an awesome one, butr I can't getg my head around the scripting aspect of something like BGT; thought I think it's the easiest designer so far. Tim --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Dark, Like I said it all depends on the game in question. Yes, if we are talking a simple table top RPG type affair the math isn't a big deal. You are going to mainly be doing stat calculations which are not all that complex. Diddo for any kind of card or board game. Now, if someone wanted to write a game like Nascar Thunder they are going to have to know some physics and higher math to pull off a simulation like that. a person could fudge it, but the more math and physics a developer adds to the game the more realistic the game will be. Sometimes there are just aren't any replacements for the proper skills and experience for more technically advanced games like racing sims, flight sims, space sims, whatever. Which was my point. The types of games a person could create largely depends on A, the developer's personal skill level at the time, and B, how willling they are to learn something new. Plus the developer's personal interests as well count alot for the types of games we might see from him/her. For instance, I've never been much of a baseball fan. My interest is so-so. However, I've been a fan of wrestling since I was at least 5 years old. So based on that information I'm much more likely to produce a wrestling game rather than baseball just because that's where my interests are. Diddo for some of the concepts Jeremy has been demonstrating in his games. Swamp is a great game conceptually and I definitely don't have any complaints about it. However, I confess I like playing alone, am not big on on line game play, so even though I know what can be done using an online server I'll still primarily focus on games designed for off line play. That's just because that's what I personally like. Cheers! On 11/18/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. the mathematical point is absolutely true about 3D games, and also games that simulate any sort of physics, such as sports, racing or flight sim titles. However, from what I've gathered it should stil be possible (especially with bgt that handles a lot of the variables as standard maths), to create something relatively detailed without going into that sort of thing. For instance, eventually I'd love to write my own turn based, textual rpg with exploration and a detailed combat system (I already have a system in mind in fact). In a system such as DD, all the calculations are essentially to do with probability and randomness, and most could be pretty easily understood, indeed sinse DD is a tabletop system, the calculations have to be easy enough for gms' and players to make on the fly during a game. the most complex thing involved would be the ai of computer opponents, but if I understood coorectly this could be worked out by a simple series of if/then statements, eg, if player enters the staggered condition, vampire will attempt to grapple, and if grappled vampire will attempt suck blood on the next turn. Even a 2D map entombed style with locations to search, objects to find etc shouldn't be too hard to work out sinse your only dealing with a lot of objects that change coordinates and initiate actions at various points. I admit that as a relatively experienced rpg nut, I probably have an advantage here in viewing systems, stil, it might be good if some developers with bgt thought numbers first reaction later, sinse it's far easier to create an interesting game by simple number fiddling than it is to create a real time game without the maths and angle calculation to back it up. I also will confess, I'm a great believer in the philosophy, if you really want to learn something you can! to illustrate, I have no desire whatsoever to learn to speak italian, stil less German. However once I am required to sing in either language, sinse I want to do a good job and have clear words, i've had to learn a fair degree of pronunciation, and indeed will probably do an Italian speaking course at some point just to make certain i'm understandable (unclear singers who just fudge their way through all the words are a dislike). This is a case where something I wish to do, namely sing requires this knolidge, so I'll learn it! If I go into programming, well it'll be time to grapple with the mathematics, should I wish to create something that requires it, sinse I would much rather spend my btime learning the necessary information to do what I want, than try and fudge my way through without it. this is indeed why i always insist on a phonetic translation of whatever I'm singing and a word by word account so that i can get the emphasis right, and also why I would spend my time learning the correct matheematics if I decided to try making for example a 2D platform game. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Dark, Actually, it was 7 levels not 8. The early versions of Entombed as well as the current demo end after completing level 7. However, your basic point still stands. What Jason did with Entombed turned out to be a good marketing strategy. On 11/18/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Actually chris that was very much the stratogy with entombed. there were ten or so betas of the first eight floors to the dungeon produced in the first 18 months before the game went commercial, after that point there were several more commercial releases that fixed bugs and added to the game, so it is actually possible to have a successive commercial release so long as you make sure that there is a decent sized enough demo for people to play and to add to before you bring out the ful game and start working on that for your paying customers. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Dark and all, HI am also a big fan of the Eamon games. In fact, had it for my Apple II-E. I've thought about creating a PC version myself, but wasn't sure if Draconis Entertainment was still working on their clone of Eamon. Anyway, once I am done with MOTA and Raceway I'd be interested in creating a self-voicing game like Eamon if it was in popular demand. That is something that wouldn't be too complicated to create and can be released in installments as we've been discussing on this thread with other games. Cheers! On 11/18/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: yep brian. Indeed I first found out about eamon and eamon delux by seeing a reference to eamon and realizing that it was the same game as Adora were planning. whether adora' would've adapted the original Eamon games to be self voicing, or written something new just with the same basic premise and world I don't know. It's quite a shame though, sinse eamon is a great game and system. One thing I particularly like is the way that you can have one persistant character through many rpg settings, and getting loot actually has a serious point sinse you can sell it to improve when you get back to the main hall. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
hi tim. This was tried with audio game maker, and really didn't work out at all. The problem is even if you wrote a game completely in English syntax, you've stil got a hole bunch of things to defign. Take a symple space invaders game as an example. you first need to setup the playing field as sterrio, decide how much your character moves according to key presses, have each invader represented by a sound, have the game track the amount of time it takes invaders to land and change the sounds accordingly, have your character move left and right and thus line up the invaders, have a method for tracking shooting to say when you press a key a shoot sound is pressed, and if pressed when an invader is not centered you miss, where as if it is centered you hit, have the game track lives lost when invaders land etc. thus, even doing this in plane english there is lots of stuff to write and you just couldn't do it effectively with a sort of question and answer or filling in form fields, you have to actually write the instructions. this is what bgt does, it lets you concentrate on writing just the game instructions. Complications come because you can't quite write the instructions in plane english but must put them a specific way for the game to understand. that's why level editers track editers and the like are so useful. You can play with the factors in a game without having to setup the hole malarchy from scratch. for example, setting up a racing game would require a huge amount of instructions, about speed and distance and laps tracked and handling and such, but making tracks for existing racing games like rail racer or top speed just requires playing with the environment. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Tom. That is true. I don't particularly see myself developing any sort of sports games sinse they don't interest me in the least, ditto with online affairs. I'm primarily interested in plot and exploration, therefore it's an rpg I'd love to make, but particularly something with a detailed combat system, an actual plot, and large explorable maps, so I'm thinking in those ters. I'd also be interested in a true 2D game with vertical movement, in fact sinse Turrican's creator has given permission for freeware remakes, and sinse the music of the game was one of it's most famous points, an exploration style audio Turrican with very large levels and ful vertical ledge jumping is something else I've thought about as well, though both projects are things I'll have to work on when I start properly with bgt. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Ah, woopse! Being as I pretty much bought the game even before there was! a commercial copy, I never actually played the entombed demo at all, so you could say in my case the release stratogy was very! successful indeed! :D. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Tom. that would be great in itself, particularly if you had an editer to create other dungeons and installments the way the initial Eamon did. however, what I'd love at the moment is a truely accessible interpreter for the eamon games. eamon delux has potential but takes a lot of mucking about, won't run on windows 7 and doesn't run all the games, and the designer just refuses to answer my mails and hasn't worked on the thing for 7 years. none of the other options for playing eamon I've tried have done any good, indeed the only vaguely accessible one seemed the dos version, and that runs even fewer games than eamon delux does and doesn't allow you to save your character after each game when you go back to the main hall. Apparently someone on the adrift forums looked at writing an interpreter to convert eamon games to adrift, but the consensus seemd to be why have an interpreter when you could just emulate them? Ironically, when i wanted to post a message pointing out that that did no good for the optically disadvantaged, I couldn't because the adrift forum had a bloody capture! therefore, while I'm deffinately in favour of anything rpg like and new, if yourself or anyone else could get an accessible eamon interpreter going that would be amazing. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Dark, Well put. That in a nutshell is the issue. Programming is after all just writing instructions in a language the computer can understand. As such since those instructions often time have to be specifically defined there is no easy way to give a yes/no answer or select it from a list of options. The differences in instructions here are limitless and can't be just put into a question and answer format. For example, Tim mentioned being able to select a 2d game or 3d game from the list. That's not practical simply because the instructions---the code---for those types of games would be pretty different. I should know because I happen to have a 2d side-scroller version of MOTA and a 3d FPS version in the works, and I will say from first-hand experience I've had to rewrite several functions from scratch simply because the instructions are totally different for the two different types of environment. Oneonly needs to move along the x and y axis of the grid and the other has to move along an x, y, and z axis. Therefore the walk, run, climb, and other movement functions have to behave differently. That's just one minor example of where the styles of game differ and can't necessarily be packaged into a one-size fits all solution. Cheers! Cheers! On 11/18/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: hi tim. This was tried with audio game maker, and really didn't work out at all. The problem is even if you wrote a game completely in English syntax, you've stil got a hole bunch of things to defign. Take a symple space invaders game as an example. you first need to setup the playing field as sterrio, decide how much your character moves according to key presses, have each invader represented by a sound, have the game track the amount of time it takes invaders to land and change the sounds accordingly, have your character move left and right and thus line up the invaders, have a method for tracking shooting to say when you press a key a shoot sound is pressed, and if pressed when an invader is not centered you miss, where as if it is centered you hit, have the game track lives lost when invaders land etc. thus, even doing this in plane english there is lots of stuff to write and you just couldn't do it effectively with a sort of question and answer or filling in form fields, you have to actually write the instructions. this is what bgt does, it lets you concentrate on writing just the game instructions. Complications come because you can't quite write the instructions in plane english but must put them a specific way for the game to understand. that's why level editers track editers and the like are so useful. You can play with the factors in a game without having to setup the hole malarchy from scratch. for example, setting up a racing game would require a huge amount of instructions, about speed and distance and laps tracked and handling and such, but making tracks for existing racing games like rail racer or top speed just requires playing with the environment. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Dark, Well, speaking of 2d games with full 2d movement MOTA is getting a major upgrade in that department. I'm not only expanding all of the game levels I'm adding more features to the game which harken back to the classic side-scrollers of the NES/Super NES era of games. That's one reason Its taking so long to produce because its a pretty extensive upgrade compared to beta 22. Cheers! On 11/18/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. That is true. I don't particularly see myself developing any sort of sports games sinse they don't interest me in the least, ditto with online affairs. I'm primarily interested in plot and exploration, therefore it's an rpg I'd love to make, but particularly something with a detailed combat system, an actual plot, and large explorable maps, so I'm thinking in those ters. I'd also be interested in a true 2D game with vertical movement, in fact sinse Turrican's creator has given permission for freeware remakes, and sinse the music of the game was one of it's most famous points, an exploration style audio Turrican with very large levels and ful vertical ledge jumping is something else I've thought about as well, though both projects are things I'll have to work on when I start properly with bgt. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi tom. I'll look forward to it. in fact it's an interesting coincidence that after years of 1D side scrollers, perilous hearts also features a much more 2D style of gameplay, probably will come out at about the same time as Mota, but has been developed independently. seeing how both games tackle the concept will certainly be interesting, pluss it's likely to actually boost sales of both games sinse if people buy one and enjoy it they may well turn to the other. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
I don't mind your little game ideas its better than those that are so scared over preorders and release dates that we get nothing for ages. If you want to release your crappy code to the community and slowly build things up all over the place thats fine anyway. At 12:51 a.m. 18/11/2011 -0800, you wrote: It has been interesting reading the many thoughts on this topic. I haven't taken the time to respond to them each, but I have been reading them. I suppose the lesson for me to pull from all of this, is that I need to produce fewer games but longer ones. This also means developing the story lines more than I have been. To summarize it in a different way, I've been giving you TV shows but you want Movies. :D lol. Breaking my current habit might be tough, especially since I have so many game ideas planned or started, but I am taking these comments to heart and I will work on adapting myself to better meet the needs of the community. To Chris, it may be a quest I'm destined to fail, but my goal is to design a refreshable braille display that costs no more than $50 to build. Once again I need to stress that this is just my goal! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Well I also aggree. With all the hooha over preorders and other release dates and things of that nature loads of devs are scared to put any date on anything. As a result apart from the lose hacker groups on the audiogames forum most of the major devs are silent for months even years. What aprone is doing isn't perfect, in fact as a game related thing its quite short and crappy. However its testing concepts which is good. Although his games are quite simple we are at least moving the framework foreward for bits and bobs and building things up from the simple crappy projects to good ones and fully community driven to. And in the mean time we are testing things such as online chat, multiplayer and other things which I forget. At 09:51 a.m. 18/11/2011 -0500, you wrote: Hi, Right. I can definitely see how Jeremy's smaller games could have a huge impact long term. For example, Swamp---although fairly simple--already explores two mainstream concepts in accessible form. Through Swamp many gamers are finding out for the first time that using the mouse for input isn't a bad thing if done correctly. This in turn may increase gamers desire for more mouse controlled input. Something that has been around for ages in mainstream gaming, but little explored by VI developers. Then, there is the entire issue of online game play. This is another issue only lightly explored by VI game developers, and is done well in Swamp. All mainstream FPS games I've played for the last 15 years or so generally had some kind of online death match mode that allowed gamers to compete online against one another. Swamp nicely demonstrates this concept in an accessible form. We could say Audio Quake got there first, but it never seemed fully accessible the way Swamp is. I can clearly see this concept going way beyond Swamp if someone cares to look into this further. So I do agree what Jeremy is doing is very helpful in its own way. I'm just not sure other game developers have the skills or desire to follow Jeremy's lead in this. We'll just have to wait and see. On 11/17/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: Good stuff to chew on here. I do think that Jeremy's style actually lends itself to getting around the development lag time issues though, as he creates continual excitement about his games by frequent updates, which aren't always huge in and of themselves, but taken cumulatively change the games quite a bit through their development cycle. My long post earlier was simply to encourage him (or others for that matter) to take that idea and run with it in a larger field. Yes, it still might take three years to come up with the fully finished game, but we'd be playing something within a month, and then something a bit more complex in another month. Along the way, we'd have direct and demonstrably effective input on things that work well and that don't. It's not possibly a viable method for a commercial game, since it relies on mass penetration before a commercial product is ready, but I could envision a kick-starter campaign or something like it to maintain interest and bring in some fundage for continued development, purchase of new hardware or software. I would certainly contribute to Jeremy's server fund as and when he outgrows his current configuration. There's a new model of development in this market here, and I'd like to see others take it and run with it, as well as encouraging Jeremy in his continued efforts. And dude, low-cost braille!? If he can make that work, he'll get some fine Scotch whiskey from me at a bare minimum. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Aprone. I fully agree on the matter of braille displays etc, pricing is insane, just add the word accessibility and you can pretty much stick on another zero, heck I've seen a hand held device which does just what your colour recognition program does which would set you back 150 pounds (about 270 dollars I think). So I fully agree with the developement your doing there. With games though, I'm afraid I'm not sure whether your methodology here sutes the circumstances. For a start, there are actually very few professional standard programmers making audio games, in fact you could probably count them without taking off your socks. Subtract those like Justin from bsc and Liam urven who's life circumstances aren't conducive to making games, and your left with a very small group of people indeed. This bunch are rather independent all have their own ideas and styles, all have knolidge of what they want to make, and won't do something simply because there is a community idea out there. to illustrate, look at stratogy games. Vip gameszone came up with galaxy ranger, which is sort of an action stratogy hybrid in I believe 2003, yet we didn't see another even vaguely stratogy audio game (not counting battleships), until 2007 with sound rts. Sound rts was amazingly well recieved and enjoyed by many people and you would've expected a huge wave of that style of game, yet (not counting castaways), the only thing to follow was time of conflict from Gma, which I'm pretty sure was in developement when sound rts was released anyway. This isn't to say there aren't trends in audio games, only that they have far less impact, sinse the more complex the game type and genre, the more difficult producing games with that concept and idea is, and the fewer people will attempt it, if indeed anyone will at all! Look at entombed. possibly the most successful audio game of all time, and produced in less than two years. Yet have we seen any similar rpgs? heck no! While I agree we have had many arcade games, I don't think this is entirely the fault of fashion. As Philip's example games show, left right sterrio targiting is sort of the default baseline in audio games, one reason why there are so many example and practice games like that now, especially from those who are working with bgt for the first time, which is indeed why it's only been now that we've had to introduce the database submission guidelines for audiogames.net to say what counts as a game and what counts as a programming practice. I think therefore that the reason there are so many arcade games is as much a consequence of programming skill, than deliberate choice, indeed there has been a major desire for more complex audio games right from when i first started playing them myself in 2006. Thus, I'm afraid your approach of introducing concept demos and then hoping people will pick up the idea and run with it just doesn't seem as logical to me given the circumstances, and given that so many people (including me), really! want more complex and interesting audio games to play, in one sense it actually feels a litle dissatisfying. Personally, I'd say there are two ways you could change the situation. One of them, is as Jason Alan did with entombed, write a complex game yourself and thus contribute something to posterity with audio games, which might not change the face of what people develope, but is certainly one! example out there of a complex game. The second, is to acknolidge that your writing a concept demo in an example game, and thus create some sort of open source affair (possibly in bgt), to hopefully give some of the programmers who are making arcade games a bit of a leg up into something more complex, and thus show how it could be done. Suppose for instance you created a cut down version of castaways with three people, a random map and five jobs, hunter, gatherer, tool maker lumberjack, cook. the hunter needs tools, the gatherer does not but only gathers a small amount of food, and the tool maker needs wood to make the tools. You could use this setup to show most of the castaways mechanics of ai that seaks resources and brings them back, changing conditions over time, tracking activities etc, and thus put someone in a far better position to create a stratogy game once they've seen the code. No, it might not be fun to play, but such is not the point of an example game. In fact, sinse all the bgt example games thus far are either basic puzles or space invaders types, this might actually be a good thing all round. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
While I wish it wasn't true, I haven't been around long enough to see the same patterns as you have. It does make sense though, that if most of the developers are new to making games they would settle with the simpler space invader approach, regardless of what other ideas were floating around. This is very unfortunate. I may adjust my strategy a bit. Hi Aprone. I fully agree on the matter of braille displays etc, pricing is insane, just add the word accessibility and you can pretty much stick on another zero, heck I've seen a hand held device which does just what your colour recognition program does which would set you back 150 pounds (about 270 dollars I think). So I fully agree with the developement your doing there. With games though, I'm afraid I'm not sure whether your methodology here sutes the circumstances. For a start, there are actually very few professional standard programmers making audio games, in fact you could probably count them without taking off your socks. Subtract those like Justin from bsc and Liam urven who's life circumstances aren't conducive to making games, and your left with a very small group of people indeed. This bunch are rather independent all have their own ideas and styles, all have knolidge of what they want to make, and won't do something simply because there is a community idea out there. to illustrate, look at stratogy games. Vip gameszone came up with galaxy ranger, which is sort of an action stratogy hybrid in I believe 2003, yet we didn't see another even vaguely stratogy audio game (not counting battleships), until 2007 with sound rts. Sound rts was amazingly well recieved and enjoyed by many people and you would've expected a huge wave of that style of game, yet (not counting castaways), the only thing to follow was time of conflict from Gma, which I'm pretty sure was in developement when sound rts was released anyway. This isn't to say there aren't trends in audio games, only that they have far less impact, sinse the more complex the game type and genre, the more difficult producing games with that concept and idea is, and the fewer people will attempt it, if indeed anyone will at all! Look at entombed. possibly the most successful audio game of all time, and produced in less than two years. Yet have we seen any similar rpgs? heck no! While I agree we have had many arcade games, I don't think this is entirely the fault of fashion. As Philip's example games show, left right sterrio targiting is sort of the default baseline in audio games, one reason why there are so many example and practice games like that now, especially from those who are working with bgt for the first time, which is indeed why it's only been now that we've had to introduce the database submission guidelines for audiogames.net to say what counts as a game and what counts as a programming practice. I think therefore that the reason there are so many arcade games is as much a consequence of programming skill, than deliberate choice, indeed there has been a major desire for more complex audio games right from when i first started playing them myself in 2006. Thus, I'm afraid your approach of introducing concept demos and then hoping people will pick up the idea and run with it just doesn't seem as logical to me given the circumstances, and given that so many people (including me), really! want more complex and interesting audio games to play, in one sense it actually feels a litle dissatisfying. Personally, I'd say there are two ways you could change the situation. One of them, is as Jason Alan did with entombed, write a complex game yourself and thus contribute something to posterity with audio games, which might not change the face of what people develope, but is certainly one! example out there of a complex game. The second, is to acknolidge that your writing a concept demo in an example game, and thus create some sort of open source affair (possibly in bgt), to hopefully give some of the programmers who are making arcade games a bit of a leg up into something more complex, and thus show how it could be done. Suppose for instance you created a cut down version of castaways with three people, a random map and five jobs, hunter, gatherer, tool maker lumberjack, cook. the hunter needs tools, the gatherer does not but only gathers a small amount of food, and the tool maker needs wood to make the tools. You could use this setup to show most of the castaways mechanics of ai that seaks resources and brings them back, changing conditions over time, tracking activities etc, and thus put someone in a far better position to create a stratogy game once they've seen the code. No, it might not be fun to play, but such is not the point of an example game. In fact, sinse all the bgt example games thus far are either basic puzles or space invaders types, this might
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi jeremy. I think possibly you were comparing audio games slightly too much to indi graphical games, where there are always many developers of various skill levels who influence each other. With audio games that is simply not the case. While I do believe that back around the year 2000 after the release of troopanum there was something of a trend with arcade games, this had pretty much died out by the time I started playing audio games myself, indeed when liam announced judgement day in 2006, most people's reaction was another space invaders game? oh noo! As it turned out he was able to do something pretty amazing with unlockables and extras, but stil even at that stage people wanted something with a litle more complexity, however the more complex the game the fewer people have the skills to do it, so we've seen few examples. For instance, swamp is actually the first first person shooter game in 5 years sinse technoshock was developed, and there are only two other audio games that could legitimately be called fp shooters, have weapons, detailed combat etc, shades of doom and technoshock (possibly gma tank commander if you just go on perspective and weapon mechanics and ignore the fact your driving a tank). Even if we drop the shooter aspect and just talk about fully first person games, we stil have only two more examples, Sarah and terraformers. So, as I said I'd love to see a fully realized project, either that or someone showing how to do things like first person in bgt, so that everyone learning with bgt can try something different. Ultimately this all comes back to the old one I've mentioned before, judgement over reactivity. I'd say it's not any one style or genre audio games need to move away from specifically, it's the mindset of here it, react. Even Moriginal super Mario brothers is a complex game, sinse the speed at which mario moves, the hight at which he jumps relative to holding the button, his stopping distance and his speed relative to enemies are all calculated to require the player to learn, practice and employ spacial awareness in calculating the game objects. Thus the player not only gets used to what threats are coming up, but also how to best control marrio in the game, what sort of distance to leave etc. This aspect, this judgement and immertion in game mechanics rather than working basically on fast instant reactions which can be quickly learnt is imho the thing game develoeprs need to think about most in audio. I know for a fact if I play superliam, despite not playing for a long time, I can do just as well as before. here enemy, shoot enemy! here pit, hit up arrow and hammer right to jump. If however I stick on marrio, odds are it'd take me a good few lives, just reminding myself of the mechanics! This isn't a bad thing in some games, indeed rythm action games make a hole genre out of it, however in audio games we've seen it waay! too much. This is also obviously something which all your games thus far had very much Aprone, and all the more reason I'd like to see you work on a really major project, sinse I think like Entombed it could be a real landmark and occupy people for years to come! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi just throwing in my 2 sence worth on this. as a blind gamer who first started out with shades of doom and then moved on to alien out back, monkey business, and judgment day etc. I to have seen the trend of audio gamers and games to keep playing games like space invaders types of games. there seems to me for sure a few different types of games for the audio game community fps, card games or puzzle games or space invaders games. I to would like to see a very complex game as well. When I was a kid and had some sight I used to play super Mario 1 and 3 with my sister. I also used to play tmnt as well on the original Nintendo system. I also was quite good at duck hunt and clay shooting and this was the case even after I lost my sight at 6. I also can remember playing the game Eamin for the old apple 2e pc. now that is a game I would like to see be able to be played as a audio game. or even the super mario games. well these are my thoughts on this topic. from Mich. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi jeremy. I think possibly you were comparing audio games slightly too much to indi graphical games, where there are always many developers of various skill levels who influence each other. With audio games that is simply not the case. While I do believe that back around the year 2000 after the release of troopanum there was something of a trend with arcade games, this had pretty much died out by the time I started playing audio games myself, indeed when liam announced judgement day in 2006, most people's reaction was another space invaders game? oh noo! As it turned out he was able to do something pretty amazing with unlockables and extras, but stil even at that stage people wanted something with a litle more complexity, however the more complex the game the fewer people have the skills to do it, so we've seen few examples. For instance, swamp is actually the first first person shooter game in 5 years sinse technoshock was developed, and there are only two other audio games that could legitimately be called fp shooters, have weapons, detailed combat etc, shades of doom and technoshock (possibly gma tank commander if you just go on perspective and weapon mechanics and ignore the fact your driving a tank). Even if we drop the shooter aspect and just talk about fully first person games, we stil have only two more examples, Sarah and terraformers. So, as I said I'd love to see a fully realized project, either that or someone showing how to do things like first person in bgt, so that everyone learning with bgt can try something different. Ultimately this all comes back to the old one I've mentioned before, judgement over reactivity. I'd say it's not any one style or genre audio games need to move away from specifically, it's the mindset of here it, react. Even Moriginal super Mario brothers is a complex game, sinse the speed at which mario moves, the hight at which he jumps relative to holding the button, his stopping distance and his speed relative to enemies are all calculated to require the player to learn, practice and employ spacial awareness in calculating the game objects. Thus the player not only gets used to what threats are coming up, but also how to best control marrio in the game, what sort of distance to leave etc. This aspect, this judgement and immertion in game mechanics rather than working basically on fast instant reactions which can be quickly learnt is imho the thing game develoeprs need to think about most in audio. I know for a fact if I play superliam, despite not playing for a long time, I can do just as well as before. here enemy, shoot enemy! here pit, hit up arrow and hammer right to jump. If however I stick on marrio, odds are it'd take me a good few lives, just reminding myself of the mechanics! This isn't a bad thing in some games, indeed rythm action games make a hole genre out of it, however in audio games we've seen it waay! too much. This is also obviously something which all your games thus far had very much Aprone, and all the more reason I'd like to see you work on a really major project, sinse I think like Entombed it could be a real landmark and occupy people for years to come! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Jeremy, as both a devoted supporter of yours and one who has deep respect for Dark's well-thought-out positions, I'm finding this discussion very interesting. First of all, kudos to you for being willing to listen and take feedback. So here's some more from, as I said, a devoted fan. David Greenwood has a deserved following in the blind/vi gamers' market because, while he produces titles at the speed of glaciers conquering continents, when he does produce, he brings forth titles with a lot of complexity, comparatively, and with well thought-out UI's (given the state of the art at the time.) Lone Wolf, despite not having been updated since--- 2003???, still stands up well and with its mission editor has nearly infinite replayability. I don't know how many people played it at the height of its popularity, or still do, but it still gets traffic here and over on the GMA list. There are still people playing Shades of Doom, many of the same folk I'd guess who are now enjoying your Swamp title. GMA Tank Commander is also still doing well in terms of people playing it, though I think it never hit as well as LW and SOD. I think the success of these titles is in part due to the thought that went into the interface. It's possible to master the interface in a few hours of game play, and once mastered, there are a lot of possible strategies for winning the games, as well as playing styles that can work. In LW, you can concentrate on stealth, and only take your shots when you're sure of them, (the strategy I used to play with,) or you can be the ballsy skipper who takes down the throat shots at incoming destroyers, rather than evading them, with consequent adrenaline highs and high risk. And you can do so in part, because he has designed his speech interface to allow you to gather data in time without significantly jiggering with the flow of the game. Another part of the success is the fact that when they came out, each of his titles did something no one had done in audio gaming, and that harked back to a classical game style from video or computer gaming. LW harked back to, what was it called, something like Submarine, which was a detailed simulation that ran on Macs, and perhaps Windows machines as well from the late eighties. Shades was I think the first FPS. GMA Tank Commander also broke ground, though less new ground rather than an elaboration of LW with better soundscapes and more complex controls. (And now you've ruined me for SOD and GTC with your mouse controls which I now miss in both games. Now, to bounce to a different subtopic, I know that you like working on multiple projects, with quick feedback and changing challenges. You excel in this arena, with your good communication with your players, and your willingness to put out a concept and see if it flies, sometimes in the face of tradition for lack of a better word. Now, how would you take this strength and bring it to the development of longer projects? Well, in Castaways and Swamp, you have the beginnings respectively of a great military/economic simulation a la Civilization, and of a complex, real-time multi-player FPS shooter/military simulation. Castaways could be expanded to include real-time, multi-player cooperative and competitive play in a server-based world where player actions affect one another more directly, where players build empires. I think I mean Age of Empires for a good comparison with mainstream titles. You could implement roads, a more complex trading economy, PVP military combat and shared threats (say a zombie apocalypse, rather than the mission-driven play which is good for teaching the system. Again, this reminds me of AoE, with its tutorial missions. In Swamp, we have something rather different and more tactical. Expand the map, include consequences for the entire world of player actions or failures, work out ways for players to cooperate more effectively and communicate better, and you have a multi-user, real-time tactical game that would have (theoretically) infinite replay value, as the world would always be changing, depending on what the players do. And I know you're working on a third project, which you gave me permission to talk about, so I will, a fantasy RPG-style game. Depending on what you have in mind, this could also become a large, real-time, multi-player game with complex combat, magic and such, either in the vein of Masters of Magic, or another take on the Angband/Nethack style of game. (By the way, I'm really excited about this one as I have been a frustrated fan of both games for years.) Since Zombie does the FPS style, I'm hoping for a party-style game like Ultima or MoM. Again, if you set this game up with an over-arching story, it could be amazing. Now, these are all daunting-sounding projects. If you tried to do them all at once, and waited to release until you have finished projects, I'd expect to be retired before seeing all of them. But here's the thing. You've
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
I can say this. The trouble with targeting style games is that that's our interface. What I mean is this. Sighted folk use their eyes to get a feel for what's happening around them. Blind people with decent hearing use their ears. That is intuitive, and I only point it out because it's important. Yes, our games feature stereo targeting as a way to get to enemies, jump on ledges, etc. However, that's because the ears are our targeters. If I can be frank, one of the reasons that space invaders clones don't excite me is that they're clones. What I mean by that is the content of a game. Story line, plot, even different objectives are what set games apart. How many different games are there out there in the mainstream community where one person shoots at another. The difference, usually, in all of these, is plot, sounds, graphics, etc. Well, aren't we lucky, because we don't have to worry about graphics. What's the difference between Mortal Kombat, Tekken, and Street Fighter? Ok, yes, there're some few control changes, a few different combos, but largely they're all three fighting games, usually even with fairly congruent characters: the fast one, the strong one, the mystical one, the cute girl, the ... uh ... well, the girl who is a defined attempt at fan service. My point with that example is that these three franchises are rediculously successful. It's not because of different control methods. It's not even because of fan or brand loyalty. It's because of a little bit of difference in sound, graphics, and story line. The simple truth is that, back when gaming on electronic devices was new, you didn't need plot or story of really any kind. But now, having seen some of the classes that simulation and gaming majors have to take, gaming is just as much about story telling as physics and programming. That's something that I'm glad to see more developers starting to play with. Now, I'm not targeting swamp, or really any of the Aprone games on any lack of story. Far from it. Even if the story doesn't last for chapter upon chapter, the games still rock based on points of interest, the content element. In Castaways, you unlock jobs and goals. In Swamp, you get weapons. All I'm saying is that the reason, I think, that space invaders clones are unsuccessful is that the story's been told. There's either no story at all, or the story sucks. Turn space invaders into an anti-aircraft game during World War II or Vietnam War and you have a game that people would at least gasp about for a few hours, rather than groan about and forget after a few seconds. My trouble is that I know how hard it is to develop a game. I do a bit of that, unfortunately not on the computer, as my abortive attempts at programming are thwarted by my abortive attempts at learning how to program. But I know it's a hard balance to maintain. Tremendous congratulations for all developers out there, but keep in mind your story, and you'll get a far bigger heap of congratulations from a far greater audience. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 11/17/11, Mich mi...@eastlink.ca wrote: Hi just throwing in my 2 sence worth on this. as a blind gamer who first started out with shades of doom and then moved on to alien out back, monkey business, and judgment day etc. I to have seen the trend of audio gamers and games to keep playing games like space invaders types of games. there seems to me for sure a few different types of games for the audio game community fps, card games or puzzle games or space invaders games. I to would like to see a very complex game as well. When I was a kid and had some sight I used to play super Mario 1 and 3 with my sister. I also used to play tmnt as well on the original Nintendo system. I also was quite good at duck hunt and clay shooting and this was the case even after I lost my sight at 6. I also can remember playing the game Eamin for the old apple 2e pc. now that is a game I would like to see be able to be played as a audio game. or even the super mario games. well these are my thoughts on this topic. from Mich. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi jeremy. I think possibly you were comparing audio games slightly too much to indi graphical games, where there are always many developers of various skill levels who influence each other. With audio games that is simply not the case. While I do believe that back around the year 2000 after the release of troopanum there was something of a trend with arcade games, this had pretty much died out by the time I started playing audio games myself, indeed when liam announced judgement day in 2006, most people's reaction was another space invaders game? oh noo! As it turned out he was able to do something pretty amazing with unlockables and extras, but stil even at that stage people
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Mich. Agreed. I'm actually sad nobody has done a propper pc vonertion of eamon, sinse I'm certain it'd be possible with a language like adrift, but sadly people just seem to play on the emulators which are inaccessible. Eamon delux is pretty good though, see the page on audiogame.snet for details. It is a pain to setup and I don't think it works on windows 7, but if you've got windows xp it will let you play lots of the eamon games. I'm just sorry that work seems to have stopped, sinse some of the eamons can't be played with it, the setup could be fixed, and above all it'd be great to have a copy that would run on future windows, but as usual sinse all the sighted players can just run the apple emulators, nobody bothers to fix it. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Mich mi...@eastlink.ca To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi just throwing in my 2 sence worth on this. as a blind gamer who first started out with shades of doom and then moved on to alien out back, monkey business, and judgment day etc. I to have seen the trend of audio gamers and games to keep playing games like space invaders types of games. there seems to me for sure a few different types of games for the audio game community fps, card games or puzzle games or space invaders games. I to would like to see a very complex game as well. When I was a kid and had some sight I used to play super Mario 1 and 3 with my sister. I also used to play tmnt as well on the original Nintendo system. I also was quite good at duck hunt and clay shooting and this was the case even after I lost my sight at 6. I also can remember playing the game Eamin for the old apple 2e pc. now that is a game I would like to see be able to be played as a audio game. or even the super mario games. well these are my thoughts on this topic. from Mich. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi jeremy. I think possibly you were comparing audio games slightly too much to indi graphical games, where there are always many developers of various skill levels who influence each other. With audio games that is simply not the case. While I do believe that back around the year 2000 after the release of troopanum there was something of a trend with arcade games, this had pretty much died out by the time I started playing audio games myself, indeed when liam announced judgement day in 2006, most people's reaction was another space invaders game? oh noo! As it turned out he was able to do something pretty amazing with unlockables and extras, but stil even at that stage people wanted something with a litle more complexity, however the more complex the game the fewer people have the skills to do it, so we've seen few examples. For instance, swamp is actually the first first person shooter game in 5 years sinse technoshock was developed, and there are only two other audio games that could legitimately be called fp shooters, have weapons, detailed combat etc, shades of doom and technoshock (possibly gma tank commander if you just go on perspective and weapon mechanics and ignore the fact your driving a tank). Even if we drop the shooter aspect and just talk about fully first person games, we stil have only two more examples, Sarah and terraformers. So, as I said I'd love to see a fully realized project, either that or someone showing how to do things like first person in bgt, so that everyone learning with bgt can try something different. Ultimately this all comes back to the old one I've mentioned before, judgement over reactivity. I'd say it's not any one style or genre audio games need to move away from specifically, it's the mindset of here it, react. Even Moriginal super Mario brothers is a complex game, sinse the speed at which mario moves, the hight at which he jumps relative to holding the button, his stopping distance and his speed relative to enemies are all calculated to require the player to learn, practice and employ spacial awareness in calculating the game objects. Thus the player not only gets used to what threats are coming up, but also how to best control marrio in the game, what sort of distance to leave etc. This aspect, this judgement and immertion in game mechanics rather than working basically on fast instant reactions which can be quickly learnt is imho the thing game develoeprs need to think about most in audio. I know for a fact if I play superliam, despite not playing for a long time, I can do just as well as before. here enemy, shoot enemy! here pit, hit up arrow and hammer right to jump. If however I stick on marrio, odds are it'd take me a good few lives, just
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi chris. I've agree, and I've heard of aprone's rpg and am looking forward to it. I personally would prefer castaways to turn into something more like dwarf fortrass or civ, where you can start from just a few people stuck on a beach and end up building cities, making luxury goods for trade, building castles and fortifications and maybe even ships to go to other lands and extend your holdings, but hay, either or both is a good direction. The purpose of my message as I believe you gathered was neither to complain nor to make light of what Aprone has done in the past. It was just that as the bgt discussion lead aprone to talking about his impact on audio games, it seemed a good point to bring this up. All Of aprone's games have broken new ground,s but perhaps none has broken it as deeply. I'm fairly sure aprone could design a game as complex and revolutionary with as much replay as lone wolf, entombed, or any of the other greats, however it sometimes feels as if his projects are somewhat shorter than they could be. hopefully he'll considder something more expansive in future, sinse if all that creativity of his was focused on one thing it could be amazing! Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi decota. I'm afraid I don't agree. yes, sterrio is the main input of an audio game, and yes, sterrio is limited in the amount of information it can convey, however there is no reason we cannot focus this information. Take packman talks as an example, showing a full four direction maze in audio sounds ludicrous until you just make the thing first person, turn it into an exploration game and hand the player some nav tools. I've been certain for a long while audio could do more than it has in many games. To an extend this is the fault as i said of developer skill, but if people think a litle more expansively and creatively more could be done. Look at judgement day. Space invaders, but the first audio game to feature a ful trophy system. Such is my point. As to graphical games, I'm afraid you are simply incorrect there. Yes, streetfighter tekken and mortal combat are all 2D fighters, but to claime they play in any sense similarly would be like saying hearts, spades, bridge and euchre are all the same because they are card games that involve taking tricks, indeed sf and mk are even more different than that. Leaving aside all graphical and plot considderations, The speed of character movement, the balance betwene the characters, what special moves are available all play a massive part. Even if we forget the fact (which I'm afraid you might have missed), that streetfighter is a 2D fighitng game where as Mk is 3D meaning your dodging and movement around the arena are entirely different, the shear balance of the game changes extremely. in mortal combat games these days, each character has several fighting styles to switch betwene, some involving weapons. Each style has a unique set of moves where the buttons on the controller do different attacks, for instance reptile may slash with his tale when button one is pressed in one style, but kick or punch when it's pressed in another. Combos are pre programmed sequences of moves which often flow from style to style. All normal moves are relatively similar in speed, and though some have greater range (especially those with weapons), none have an over baring range. Special moves remain the same however, and each character has comparatively few, most of which deal with attacking at a certain distance or range or propelling the character forward, such as a fireball or charge attack. These however are pretty independent from the fighting styles. In streetfighter however each charater fights with only one style, and has a set of six buttons, light, medium and heavy kicks and punches. The strength of the move determines both it's speed and damge, thus a light punch is fast and weak where as a heavy punch is slow but powerful. These properties also apply both to normal moves used in different positions of the character, eg, jumping kicks and punches or sweeps, and to special moves, sinse each special has a light, medium and heavy form which is faster or slower or goes further across the screen. Characters are far more areal, meaning that jumping attacks are far more part of the game than in mk, and with the different timings of moves combos involve more than long sequences of presses sinse the opponent also needs to be in the right position. Thus, the two games are entirely different, and this has just scratched the surface. The differences however are all brought about by the judgement of the player, his/her sense of timing, familiarity with the attacks and the situations of the game, not merely reactivity, which is why I am so much in favour of having audio games that actually have mechanics to learn, not just boppit type here it and react gameplay. That way, tow games even of the same genre could be different, eg, imagine another tank game where the tank took far longer to get to it's top speed, and where you controlled the turrit independently of the tank's movement, that would be entirely different from Gma tank commander even while being the same type of game. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Hi Dark, I think you are right on the money there. One of the problems is programming skill. Most people here don't have any formal programming training and thus sort of program as they figure things out or get a leg up from a slightly more experienced programmer. As a direct result of that many first attempts will be something rather simple like BopIt, Space Invaders,or something similarly easy to program without a lot of skill. The second issue is higher level math skills. Depending on the type of game being considered it may require a reasonable amount of higher math. Doing complex 3d calculations, for example, will require some reasonable skills with geometry, trig, and better yet calculus. If the developer doesn't have that kind of background certaintypes of games will be out of the person's technical skill level. Finally, the issue of time. You and I have have spoken many times of how complex mainstream games like Megaman and Castlevania are, but you have any concept how long it would take a single developer to add all those features? It could take considerable time figuring out how to create those types of puzzle elements and also make sure it is fully accessible. Its complex enough to slow down development and some people might not want to spend the time it takes to do all that. Bottom line, what I am saying is while Jeremy's ideas are good you've got a point. Jeremy or anyone else can demonstrate cool game concepts all day long but if other developers don't have the required skills or time in the first place its a pretty mute point. There isn't much anyone can do to make them try something else. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
The really sad part about that is that I believe Adora Entertainmet was going to attempt to do a proper windows version of Eamon. If I remember rightly it was going to be called the Eamon Guild of Free Adventurers. I remember it was fascinating to me because a te time we had no true RPG's for the blind since this was a good four years before Jason came on the scene with Entombed and then of course Castle Quest ended up being scrapped because of disagreements between BSC and the other guy. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi Mich. Agreed. I'm actually sad nobody has done a propper pc vonertion of eamon, sinse I'm certain it'd be possible with a language like adrift, but sadly people just seem to play on the emulators which are inaccessible. Eamon delux is pretty good though, see the page on audiogame.snet for details. It is a pain to setup and I don't think it works on windows 7, but if you've got windows xp it will let you play lots of the eamon games. I'm just sorry that work seems to have stopped, sinse some of the eamons can't be played with it, the setup could be fixed, and above all it'd be great to have a copy that would run on future windows, but as usual sinse all the sighted players can just run the apple emulators, nobody bothers to fix it. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Mich mi...@eastlink.ca To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi just throwing in my 2 sence worth on this. as a blind gamer who first started out with shades of doom and then moved on to alien out back, monkey business, and judgment day etc. I to have seen the trend of audio gamers and games to keep playing games like space invaders types of games. there seems to me for sure a few different types of games for the audio game community fps, card games or puzzle games or space invaders games. I to would like to see a very complex game as well. When I was a kid and had some sight I used to play super Mario 1 and 3 with my sister. I also used to play tmnt as well on the original Nintendo system. I also was quite good at duck hunt and clay shooting and this was the case even after I lost my sight at 6. I also can remember playing the game Eamin for the old apple 2e pc. now that is a game I would like to see be able to be played as a audio game. or even the super mario games. well these are my thoughts on this topic. from Mich. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released! Hi jeremy. I think possibly you were comparing audio games slightly too much to indi graphical games, where there are always many developers of various skill levels who influence each other. With audio games that is simply not the case. While I do believe that back around the year 2000 after the release of troopanum there was something of a trend with arcade games, this had pretty much died out by the time I started playing audio games myself, indeed when liam announced judgement day in 2006, most people's reaction was another space invaders game? oh noo! As it turned out he was able to do something pretty amazing with unlockables and extras, but stil even at that stage people wanted something with a litle more complexity, however the more complex the game the fewer people have the skills to do it, so we've seen few examples. For instance, swamp is actually the first first person shooter game in 5 years sinse technoshock was developed, and there are only two other audio games that could legitimately be called fp shooters, have weapons, detailed combat etc, shades of doom and technoshock (possibly gma tank commander if you just go on perspective and weapon mechanics and ignore the fact your driving a tank). Even if we drop the shooter aspect and just talk about fully first person games, we stil have only two more examples, Sarah and terraformers. So, as I said I'd love to see a fully realized project, either that or someone showing how to do things like first person in bgt, so that everyone learning with bgt can try something different. Ultimately this all comes back to the old one I've mentioned before, judgement over reactivity. I'd say it's not any one style or genre audio games need to move away from specifically, it's the mindset of here it, react. Even Moriginal super Mario brothers is a complex game, sinse the speed at which mario moves, the hight at which he jumps relative to holding the button, his stopping distance and his speed relative to enemies
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
Good stuff to chew on here. I do think that Jeremy's style actually lends itself to getting around the development lag time issues though, as he creates continual excitement about his games by frequent updates, which aren't always huge in and of themselves, but taken cumulatively change the games quite a bit through their development cycle. My long post earlier was simply to encourage him (or others for that matter) to take that idea and run with it in a larger field. Yes, it still might take three years to come up with the fully finished game, but we'd be playing something within a month, and then something a bit more complex in another month. Along the way, we'd have direct and demonstrably effective input on things that work well and that don't. It's not possibly a viable method for a commercial game, since it relies on mass penetration before a commercial product is ready, but I could envision a kick-starter campaign or something like it to maintain interest and bring in some fundage for continued development, purchase of new hardware or software. I would certainly contribute to Jeremy's server fund as and when he outgrows his current configuration. There's a new model of development in this market here, and I'd like to see others take it and run with it, as well as encouraging Jeremy in his continued efforts. And dude, low-cost braille!? If he can make that work, he'll get some fine Scotch whiskey from me at a bare minimum. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Game concepts BGT Version 1.1 Released!
First, to address Dark: I do take your point about Street Fighter, Tekken, and Mortal Combat, but I take that point only to a point. I understand the different game mechanics, the different button presses and how they affect the fighters movements differently in each game, but I'm not talking about microcosmic views on the games. What I mean is that you, the player, press specific, predetermined sequences of controls, in realtime, which trigger calculations based on the position of your character and his opponent or opponents, possibly throw in some random chance, and result in a punch to the face. the specifics are different, but even these rise and fall throughout different games in the serieses. Sometimes, these specific control schemes even differ in the same game. Tekken 6, for example, has a 3d arena that's playyed in like a 2d, movement largely forward and back, with jumps and such, but it has stages played in true 3d style, with commands to switch to a 2d interface if that's what you need to have to fight. It's more about that we can have games with similar control schemes yet that are very, very different based on content. For example, if you just picked up your controller, judged timing, threw a little guesswork in there for luck, and won, it'd be less satisfying if you didn't care anything about the fighter you're playing. You do, though, because of character history, cut scenes, commentary, even little snippets, brief voiced parts that give you some small idea of the character in question. In this way, our games lack, because we get really worried about size versus playability. It's frankly unfair to us, because mainstream titles nowadays are on dvd media, which has gigabytes of room: rom for code, sounds, voice clips, fully orchestrated music, and what have you. We start worrying if our games get bigger than, say, 50 megabytes. I understand the concern, I get the reasons behind it, but it still results in games with less to compel you, the player, to give a hoot, as my wife might say, about the character at all. Fortunately, Perilous Hearts, among other titles, seems to be taking this problem firmly in hand, and that's already given me a great deal of confidence that I'd enjoy the game, even if the gameplay was horrible, the systems were flawed, and the price outrageous, which won't be the case. I'm going to say it just once more, because I've lost count of how many times I've said it, and it provides the amusement of being embarrassed for me to do it once more. Content makes a game nowadays. Story makes a product. That's the difference between the dungeon crawlers of the eighties and the Elder Scrolls or Fable or any of the other RPG titles of today. Content, story, that's what creates success. That's not to do with interface or how we use information. I've known many people that will read a terribly written book if the plot is great. I'm one of those people myself. I know it sounds like I'm unsatisfied with our games right now, what we have going on. Truthfully, I'm not. I play as many games as I can, enjoying all of the ones i have on my computer. It's just that the games in future can be even greater. And I have to appologize for the harshness of how this is going to come across. People say that they can't find voice talent, or that they can't find talent with similar recording conditions. Frankly, at this point, that's just a little lazy. There are literally thousands of aspiring voice actors out there who'd literally leap at the chance to do just about anything for a game, just for kudos and credits, something they can show people. Surely, in all of those thousands, there are some who would meet the developer's idea of good casting and good recording, or maybe the devs could say I can't handle all of this work. If you do the casting, do the sounds, or what have you, I'll pay you. How about a free copy of the game. Frankly, if I was approached with something like that I'd jump on it, and it'd free the dev up to do developing work, for which I'm utterly useless. Just keep all of this in mind, awesome developers, as you keep up the good work, and try not to be too mad at me if I've crossed a line or stood on a toe. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 11/17/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: Good stuff to chew on here. I do think that Jeremy's style actually lends itself to getting around the development lag time issues though, as he creates continual excitement about his games by frequent updates, which aren't always huge in and of themselves, but taken cumulatively change the games quite a bit through their development cycle. My long post earlier was simply to encourage him (or others for that matter) to take that idea and run with it in a larger field. Yes, it still might take three years to come up with the fully finished game, but we'd be playing something within a month, and then something a bit more complex in another month. Along the way, we'd
