Re: [ZION] A reading list
I have not got to that part yet. I am only to the initial baptism section. So far though, I find it very good, although sometimes not as deep in background quotes as I might have expected. He is on another list I participate in and I may yet have some questions for him. George - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 11:51 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] A reading list I have Barry's book. It is very good, with one exception. I think the Baptism for the Dead section is a little weak. But that isn't through any fault of his. The reality is, there isn't much ancient information whatsoever on baptisms for the dead. His stuff on an anthropomorphic God is excellent, but I would have included a little bit more information from his sources in that area. Gary George Cobabe wrote: Ah - a topic that will not engender evil emotions. I just finished reading By the Hand of Mormon by Terryl Givens. A excellant book regarding the history and perspectives of the Book of Mormon from historical as well as non-mormon perspective. Chapter Eight on Dialogic Revelation and the Book of Mormon's application of the principles was truly eye-opening. I have just started Restoring the Ancient Church, Joseph Smith and Early Christianity By Barry Bickmore. It looks at the early Christian Church and describes how it was corrupted and then how the early doctrines compare so favorably with our current doctrines. It looks very good. George - Original Message - From: Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ZION [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:01 AM Subject: [ZION] A reading list I'm sorry to rain on everyone's parade. I see that many people enjoy discussing the gospel. I do not qualify to join such discussions. I just don't have the knowledge everyone else has. So I decided to start a new thread. In the past, my efforts have had mixed results. At times I have started threads that have lasted weeks. Other times my post seems to be the only one, so I suppose it could not even be called a thread. We shall see how this one works out. Please forgive the lightheartedness. I was just wondering what everyone is reading these days. I'm currently working my way through Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy. I had decided to read the Iliad and the Odyssey, but I didn't get too far before I realized that I will need to get the Cliff Notes to go with that. My little brain just doesn't function that well. Luckily I will be heading for Savannah next month so I plan to pick it up then. I'm thinking of reading Contact by Carl Sagan next. I really enjoyed the movie, and I can't imagine anyone having seen that movie without being convinced that there is life out there beyond the confines of the earth. So does anyone care to share what they are reading these days? Or their thoughts on life in outer space? I'm kind of angry at myself. Astute readers will notice that I have a new e-mail address. I also have a new computer. I downloaded the SETI program, but when I tried to add on to my previous SETI total they asked for my password. I have no idea, and since they only send the password to the old address (which has since been cancelled), I'm out of luck. I had over 400 completed work units, and had to start over. I'm at about 90 now. One good thing, my new computer whips through those work units between two and three times as fast as my old computer. Anyway, I ask again, what are you guys reading? Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right. -- Carl Schurz // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email
Re: [ZION] Feng Shui?
Not just the furniture, but the entire orientation of the home, The doors, the windows, etc. I had my friend from Hawaii describe how a buyer for his home had to have the feng shui expert come in and approve the home before the prospective buyer would go any further. George - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 1:26 PM Subject: [ZION] Feng Shui? It is an oriental method of arranging your furniture so you get to heaven quicker. Or, maybe it is to allow the right vibes to flow through your house. Yeah, something like that. My wife owns both a book on Feng Shui and a parody called Wrong Shui (which I got for her, of course). K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Jim asked: What is feng shui? How does it reconcile with living the gospel of Christ? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
Tom says For someone to suggest that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine. I am going to reply to this one time and then be done. As has been the case from the first, Tom, you do not yet understand the questions I have regarding this issue. One of the problems we have between us is that I have seen other examples of where the brethren have been wrong on an issue, whereas apparently you feel that if you can just find the right quote that will answer the question for everyone. That does not mean that I do not support them in any way, for I am able to separate the callings and the keys, etc, from the problematic teachings that do sometimes occur. That does not mean that you need to defend the brethren against that at all, for I raise my hand in sustaining them every chance I get. I even confessed that if I were in your stake I would be able to sustain you, even as you railed against me. In the Catholic faith they beleive in an infallible Pope but never act that way, in the LDS Church we beleive in a fallible prophet, but treat his/their every word as absolute truth. I have said that I beleive that there are certain tenets of our faith that are in conflict with the idea of sub-kingdoms in the Celestial Kingdom. You have never allowed me to get to the point of asking those questions and expressing those concerns. You have never allowed the discussion to get anywhere before you begin calling me to repentance. If I have concerns then it would not hurt anyone to be aware of them and to take a crack at helping me resolve them. I have come to the conclusion that the several points of doctrine that conflict with this idea are far more important that the belief in Celestial sub-kingdoms. Given that I can comfortably read sec 131, and all of Rene' quotes a bit different that you do, I have come to the conclusion that all who enter the Celestial Kingdom will be exalted. In my mind this preserves the integrity of the scriptures and gives full credence to the atonement of the Saviour. I have agreed to provide another on this list with a short paper outlining the conflicts I have. I will not be posting this to the list and will only share it on the stipulation that there is the understanding that it is not a argument for agreement, but rather a request for input. If you, or anyone else, would like a copy please let me know with an email direct to [EMAIL PROTECTED] It will be a few days. It would appear that my desire to find a list that can discuss doctrine of the church with a bit of latitude in the questions allowed has not been satisfied with this list. That's OK, it just has taken a bit of time to realize that this is the case. I am sorry for the upsetting nature of my posts. It would appear that I have greater faith in the posters on this and other lists than others do. Best wishes to all, and to all a good night. George - Original Message - From: Tom Matkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:48 PM Subject: FW: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 -Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 7, 2003 4:12 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 I suspect we shall soon be kicked off for daring to discuss this, but what the hey. Where in 131 does it say this? I read Celestial Glory, not the Celestial Kingdom. George, This possibility was settled very nicely in favour of the consistent teachings of the men in the first councils of the Church since the time of Joseph Smith. In fact, as you know, Rene Krywult researched the very question that you raise above and discovered that the use of the phrase Celestial Glories as an absolute synonym for Celestial Kingdom has been equally consistent. If it means something else in Section 131, as you suggest, then Section 131 is the only place in Joseph Smith's frequent usage of the term Celestial Glories that it doesn't mean Celestial Kingdom. I asked and received permission from Rene to post his research here and so it follows. As Rene reminded you George, we are not accusing you of teaching or promoting false doctrine, we are concerned that your flogging of this matter means that you are accusing the brethren of the church of teaching false doctrine. Section 131 is a seminary scripture mastery for heavens sake. It is taught in the standard way in seminary and institute and all correlated lesson manuals. For someone to suggest that the teaching is wrong means that that someone is saying that the brethren of the church are teaching false doctrine. And, as I said all those many months ago, one shouldn't have to defend the teachings of the brethren from attack on the ZION list. Here's what Rene found out in his research: I tried to find out, if the claim that Joseph Smith may have used celestial glory interchangeably with heaven (i.e. all three kingdoms
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
As you know my views are based on scriptures, not quotes from authorities. There are significant disagreements between the two, as you are aware. When you raise the question expect responses. It would seem that you are asking the questions, I am not raising the issues. You seem to be seeking disagreement with the book Gospel Doctrine and with doctrinal issues generally. You seem to almost be goading me by asking the questions you do and at the same time asking for more interaction on the list, however I am apparently wrong on that. I shall be silent - unless you continue to ask. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 George Cobabe wrote: As you know, John, when you ask the question I can testify that this is true. However there is more to the answer than what has been presented. I would be delighted to discuss this topic with courtesy and good will, if that would be possible. If you have any information that current Church leaders support your view that all who obtain the Celestial Kingdom inherit eternal life, I would be interested. Otherwise, I'd rather move on to something else. I don't want Tom Matkin leaving the list again. His views and mine are very much mainstream as stated in GOSPEL PRINCIPLES. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love
Thank you for your kindness in skipping the lesson. The world will be better because of the silence on this matter. George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:11 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love At 10:36 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Nehors - was: Unconditional Love Just hazarding a guess, but I suspect that most people, some on this list even, haven't the foggiest idea what the John Birch Society is really about. All they know about it is what they've heard on TV, radio or the newspapers. Or perhaps from Secular Humanist College Professors grin. Well, by all means, clue them in as to what they've been missing. Be sure to show how it correlates neatly with Mormon teachings. Ron Nah. I won't bother. Those who are really interested will find out. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those of us who take note of and criticize abuses of power by the federal bureaucracy are often accused of being anti-government. This is not only untrue, it is the exact opposite of the truth. The John Birch Society and those who share our constitutionalist point of view are emphatically pro-government so much so, in fact, that we want to see as many governments as possible dividing power and responsibilities, and keeping each other in check. What we oppose is the alternative the effective abolition of local, county, and state governments and their absorption into a monolithic federal state, which in turn would ultimately be subsumed into a global leviathan directed by the United Nations.--WNG The Review of the News Oct 13, 2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
Boy o Boy, that is certainly a response designed to continue discussion. It is interesting that the best you can offer is a complete denial that Stacy had anything useful to say and without and justification on your part. Not even a disclaimer that you uinderstand it differently, but jsut a dismissal. There are so many things that are just obviously bad and wrong aren't there. Most of which can be dismissed as easily as you have her questions, unless of course one wants to think it through and perhaps come up with a more useful response. I, of course, with this response can be accused of doing the very thing I condemn in your response. George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:15 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?) -Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?) I don't believe the sons of perdition will be few in number. I believe we have sufficient scriptures to prove otherwise, notwithstanding many will go telestial. The people that go telestial will still have to repent in order for that to be done. I've seen some people who would never accept Jesus under any circumstances. These people wish to live in their sins. Aren't I right in suggesting that anyone who wishes to live through eternity with their sins will go to perdition? Stacy. You are not right. About anything listed above. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
That's fine, Till. However I do not think you know the question in mind. You see, I find Sec 132 more that supportative and I believe it to be true as well. It is the scriptures, including 132, that I find supportive. George - Original Message - From: Elmer L. Fairbank [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 At 03:44 PM 11/6/2003 -0900, BLT wrote: George Cobabe wrote: As you know, John, when you ask the question I can testify that this is true. However there is more to the answer than what has been presented. I would be delighted to discuss this topic with courtesy and good will, if that would be possible. If you have any information that current Church leaders support your view that all who obtain the Celestial Kingdom inherit eternal life, I would be interested. Otherwise, I'd rather move on to something else. I don't want Tom Matkin leaving the list again. His views and mine are very much mainstream as stated in GOSPEL PRINCIPLES. I find DC 132 to be quite clear on this subject. I'll sit quietly in the John and Tom camp, thank you. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] A reading list
Ah - a topic that will not engender evil emotions. (B (BI just finished reading "By the Hand of Mormon" by Terryl Givens. A (Bexcellant book regarding the history and perspectives of the Book of Mormon (Bfrom historical as well as non-mormon perspective. Chapter Eight on (B"Dialogic Revelation" and the Book of Mormon's application of the principles (Bwas truly eye-opening. (B (BI have just started "Restoring the Ancient Church, Joseph Smith and Early (BChristianity" By Barry Bickmore. It looks at the early Christian Church (Band describes how it was corrupted and then how the early doctrines compare (Bso favorably with our current doctrines. It looks very good. (B (BGeorge (B (B (B- Original Message - (BFrom: "Cousin Bill" [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BTo: "ZION" [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BSent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:01 AM (BSubject: [ZION] A reading list (B (B (B I'm sorry to rain on everyone's parade. I see that many people (B enjoy discussing the gospel. I do not qualify to join such (B discussions. I just don't have the knowledge everyone else has. (B So I decided to start a new thread. In the past, my efforts have (B had mixed results. At times I have started threads that have (B lasted weeks. Other times my post seems to be the only one, so I (B suppose it could not even be called a thread. We shall see how (B this one works out. Please forgive the lightheartedness. (B (B I was just wondering what everyone is reading these days. I'm (B currently working my way through Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy. I had (B decided to read the Iliad and the Odyssey, but I didn't get too (B far before I realized that I will need to get the Cliff Notes to (B go with that. My little brain just doesn't function that well. (B Luckily I will be heading for Savannah next month so I plan to (B pick it up then. I'm thinking of reading Contact by Carl Sagan (B next. I really enjoyed the movie, and I can't imagine anyone (B having seen that movie without being convinced that there is life (B out there beyond the confines of the earth. (B (B So does anyone care to share what they are reading these days? (B Or their thoughts on life in outer space? I'm kind of angry at (B myself. Astute readers will notice that I have a new e-mail (B address. I also have a new computer. I downloaded the SETI (B program, but when I tried to add on to my previous SETI total (B they asked for my password. I have no idea, and since they only (B send the password to the old address (which has since been (B cancelled), I'm out of luck. I had over 400 completed work (B units, and had to start over. I'm at about 90 now. One good (B thing, my new computer whips through those work units between two (B and three times as fast as my old computer. (B (B Anyway, I ask again, what are you guys reading? (B (B Cousin Bill (B [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B "Our country, right or wrong. When (B right, to be kept right. When wrong, (B to be put right." -- Carl Schurz (B (B (B (B// (B /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// (B /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// (B (B (B/ (B (B (B (B (B (B// (B/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// (B/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// (B/ (B--^ (BThis email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B (BEASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 (BOr send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B (BTOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! (Bhttp://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html (B--^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
I suspect we shall soon be kicked off for daring to discuss this, but what the hey. Where in 131 does it say this? I read Celestial Glory, not the Celestial Kingdom. However in 132:23-24 it talks about receiving and living with God and that this living with God is what exaltation is defined as. Living with God should not be construed as damnation, as you have ably pointed out that it may represent. Why would the atonement not make up for any deficiencies that are present in a person worthy to attain to the Celestial Kingdom? What could a worthy person do to not qualify for the atonement in their lives so that they would have full exaltation? Well John, when I came back I said I would repond to questions asked. Happy to leave if this bothers or scares you. George - Original Message - From: Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:48 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 George Cobabe wrote: There are those on this list that in the past have argued that Eternal Marriage is NOT essential for exaltation. Exaltation is living in the presence of God the Father and receiving His blessings. Yet it is suggested that to live in the Celestial Kingdom it is not necessary to have an Eternal Marriage. Still, it's possible to be in the Celestial Kingdom and NOT be exalted. I think that's where the misunderstanding among members comes in. DC 131 indicates that temple marriage is needed for the *highest degree* of the Celestial Kingdom. On the basis of that scripture, it does appear that a single person might be able to enter at the lowest degree. But the lower degrees of the Celestial Kingdom represent a type of eternal damnation. Yes, persons designated for that place can be in the presence of both the Father and the Son, but exaltation goes beyond being in their presence, and means becoming as God in all things, up to and including godhood. If you can receive a degree of Celestial Glory, yet be unable to attain the status of godhood (being designated, for instance, as a ministering angel), then by definition, one's progression stops and damnation occurs. Still, in practical terms, I don't know how likely it would be for a single person to reach the lower degrees of the Celestial Kingdom. For if someone desires to enter into the covenant, makes the needed sacrifices, yet cannot locate a suitable companion, teachings indicate that provision will be made later in the post-mortal existance. At the other extreme, someone who goes out of their way to avoid temple marriage could be judged as being rebellious or disobedient...perhaps the judgment might even be in the direction of the Terrestrial Kingdom? In the middle, I suppose, are those individuals who seek to be obedient in the Gospel in most things, yet don't care one way or the other about temple marriage. Then they die without being sealed to a companion, realizing too late that they should have given the matter greater attention. They might have been exalted, but for their diligence in seeking an eternal companion. I suspect it would be these individuals who would become the ministering angels in the lower Celestial rhelms. (But would there be that many?) Even so, all this would be my personal speculation. All the best, /Sandy/ -- The Rabinowitz Family, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spring Hill, Tennessee // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Repentance from adultery
What a great response Gary. I beleive you are right, although I think the number will be very small, whatever that means, just because the requirements are so high. George - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 9:39 AM Subject: [ZION] Repentance from adultery The definition given of a Son of Perdition is a person who has received a high level of understanding of the gospel, then not only fully denies it, but seeks to commit evil. Cain is the perfect example. He held the priesthood, spoke with God, then turned completely against God. It isn't a matter of someone refusing to repent of some sins. It is a matter of becoming God's total enemy, which most people in the world will never do. Even most murderers and adulterers keep some commandments and believe in God. They don't totally reject the light and truth, since they have not received a fulness of that light and truth, so they could never become a son of perdition. I would venture that of the 11+ million members in the Church today, less than 25,000 are spiritual and enlightened enough to ever risk being a son of perdition. And there are no non-members that could ever qualify. In fact, the only person we know of a surety is a son of perdition is Cain. Even Judas Iscariot probably did not qualify, as he had not received the Gift of the Holy Ghost and a true conversion. There will be, as I understand it, a major gathering of sons of perdition at the end of the Millennium, as Satan gathers his people out from those with a full witness of Christ. But in all reality, most of those choosing to be sons of perdition, chose to do so prior to this world. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:42:24 -0600 From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?) I don't believe the sons of perdition will be few in number. I believe we have sufficient scriptures to prove otherwise, notwithstanding many will go telestial. The people that go telestial will still have to repent in order for that to be done. I've seen some people who would never accept Jesus under any circumstances. These people wish to live in their sins. Aren't I right in suggesting that anyone who wishes to live through eternity with their sins will go to perdition? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] blood red moon
Well, Gary even if your interpretation is not true, the conclusions are. We need to stand in Holy Places. Recently this was brought home to me more than for some time as I discussed the 200 years of peace after the Saviour visited this land. The idea was that it was not a universal, hemispherical, condition, but was limited to a relatively small group of people who had survived the visit. They were protected from the rest of the world while they had their Zion experience. I suspect that this might be an example of how it will be in the stakes of Zion in the last days. George - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:15 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] blood red moon Well, one way to interpret DC 87 as the slaves that rise up against their masters who are disciplined in war, to mean the fall of Socialism; with the remnant of the slaves rising up against the Gentile nations being the Muslim terrorism attacks. When that occurs, the DC says there will begin to be many signs in the heavens and natural destructions. So, if that interpretation is correct, we may see some interesting times ahead. Oh, stand in holy places, eh? Gary Smith Heidi Page wrote: Hello all... I read a bit on cnn.com this morning about the upcoming lunar eclipse this weekend and how the moon is supposed to turn blood red. To quote the article: Saturday's lunar eclipse will be followed by the Leonid meteor shower, a total solar eclipse over the southern hemisphere -- and a chance for more auroras if the sun stays active. Another eruption Tuesday on the sun ranked among the most intense solar events ever recorded. But the explosion was aimed away from Earth, meaning it would have little impact here. What think ye? Do you think this *means* anything? Just curious... Heidi the fair Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
I have no problem with what you have said, I think that I can agree with it all. As I said the question was quite different. George - Original Message - From: Elmer L. Fairbank [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 At 08:20 AM 11/7/2003 -0700, St George wrote: That's fine, Till. However I do not think you know the question in mind. You see, I find Sec 132 more that supportative and I believe it to be true as well. It is the scriptures, including 132, that I find supportive. With all due respect, my friend, I was referring specifically to the part where it says, with regards to those who have celestial marriage AND have been sealed by the holy spirit of promise, then shall they be gods, as opposed to those who have not. Of them. IIRC, it is said, and that shall be the end of their glory or some such. Are we just talking past each other on semantics? I take exaltation et al to mean the former of these two scenarios. Elsewhere in the scriptures I recall reading that damnation is defined as having one's progression ended. Certainly, I would concede, that to be a servant in the house of the most high would be far better than being a prince in a lesser kingdom, but still, it IS a cessation of progression. Till, who has said his piece // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
As you know, John, when you ask the question I can testify that this is true. However there is more to the answer than what has been presented. I would be delighted to discuss this topic with courtesy and good will, if that would be possible. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:28 PM Subject: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation Many people in the world consider marriage to be only a social custom, a legal agreement between a man and a woman to live together. But to Latter-day Saints, marriage is much more. Our exaltation depends on marriage. We believe that marriage is the most sacred relationship that can exist between a man and a woman. This sacred relationship affects our happiness now and in the eternities. Heavenly Father has given us the law of eternal marriage so we can become like him. We must live this law to be able to have spirit children. The Lord has said: In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it (DC 131:1-3). --- Anyone disagree that this is official Church doctrine? Our missionaries teach it to investigators and it is taught to all new members as part of the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Is this controversial, or what? Are any of the Brethren divided on this? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
There are those on this list that in the past have argued that Eternal Marriage is NOT essential for exaltation. Exaltation is living in the presence of God the Father and receiving His blessings. Yet it is suggested that to live in the Celestial Kingdom it is not necessary to have an Eternal Marriage. I beleive that is wrong and agree with the opening statement, but the Church as a whole does not believe this as it is a common beleif that you can gain the CK and still be single. George - Original Message - From: Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:20 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 John W. Redelfs wrote: Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation (* * *) Anyone disagree that this is official Church doctrine? Our missionaries teach it to investigators and it is taught to all new members as part of the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Is this controversial, or what? Are any of the Brethren divided on this? I certainly don't believe these is any division, but wonder if perhaps the focus has shifted more towards the preservation of _existing_ marriages. For instance, just in the last few weeks, in our ward alone, we've had two couples get separated, and in the prior year and a half, three divorces were finalized. Four of these were temple marriages...the fifth might be also, but I'm not sure. And that's just the stuff I'm personally aware of...I imagine the Bishop might have knowledge of others. But mainly I just get the sense what our ward is experiencing may not be an anomoly. Celestial marriage is important...if I didn't think so, I wouldn't have written so many woe is me posts over the years. ;-) But the covenants made in the sealing room won't exactly hold a lot of water if the persons who made them don't follow through, or in other words, endure to the end. Even worse, children get caught in the crossfire, and their spiritual state has to be considered as well. I tend to think the Lord may hold such parents responsible to the extent that their children have fallen away as a direct result. /Sandy/ -- The Rabinowitz Family, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spring Hill, Tennessee // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2
And I said that this is only true if we get into speculative areas. As long as we stick to the most basic fundamentals, official Church doctrine is easily determined. And George would agree with this statement wholeheartedly. It is the scope of the most basic fundamentals that is so very hard to define. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:42 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #2 Ron Scott wrote: What is this, some kind of litmus test? Please define new and everlasting covenant? It is not a litmus test, it is a Sunday School lesson from the Gospel Essentials Sunday School manual entitled GOSPEL PRINCIPLES. On another thread George Cobabe said that official Church doctrine was very hard to determine. And I said that this is only true if we get into speculative areas. As long as we stick to the most basic fundamentals, official Church doctrine is easily determined. Well, the Gospel Essentials class is for investigators and new members and it basically just supplements and reinforces the missionary discussions that all our missionaries teach to new investigators. The manual, which has been through correlation, restricts itself to the most basic fundamentals and is NOT controversial in the tiniest degree. What is the new and everlasting covenant? The phrase is used two ways that I know of: 1) It is a reference to the Book of Mormon, and 2) it is a reference to temple marriage for time and all eternity. This latter usage is evidently the one being used in the lesson I posted. I have thought I would post parts of the GOSPEL PRINCIPLES manual from time to time to see if I get any disagreement, and if so, from whom. I keep hearing about false doctrine creeping into our correlated manuals, but I don't know of any particular instances. I thought this might be one way of finding out. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1
I would be happy to teach Mother Theresa about the nature of God. Could you arrange a meeting? George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:05 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 Anything controversial here? I don't think so. And yet we are the only Church upon the earth that teaches this most basic and fundamental truth about God, that he is an actual, physical being, as tangible as man is. How can anyone know anything about God that is correct if he doesn't understand the most basic fundamental truth about him? Religion may not be the same as mathematics, but one has to get the most basic fundamentals right if he want to understand anything else. Wouldn't you agree? Tell that to Mother Theresa. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] A Question for George
Why would you bring up specifically this book? All of the sunday school manuals are correlated, therefore all could pass the same test you offer - could they not? As an aside of a general comment and observation. I had a discussion with a friend who was not only on the committe that writes and reviews the manuals and his comment was that there was a bit of false, or at least questionalbe, tradition present in some of the manuals - take it for what it is worth. The more important questions would be - in the sunday school classes of the church is there any false doctrine taught using the manuals as the basis for the discussion. To that I would reply with a unqualified and strong YES there is false doctrine taught in the sunday schools of the church - even with good manuals. Now if you have a specific question about a specific book then I will be happy to discuss it. But I have not the time right now to review this book. Is there something specific you would challenge? George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:09 PM Subject: [ZION] A Question for George The book GOSPEL PRINCIPLES is the correlated manual for the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. Primarily, it elaborates upon and reinforces those things that new investigators were taught as official Church doctrine by our missionaries. I have a question for George: George, do you think there is any false doctrine in GOSPEL PRINCIPLES? If you do, I'd like to discuss the teachings that you disagree with. I personally believe every word in that book. It is fundamental, basic, foundational Mormon doctrine. Furthermore, it is official. What do I mean by official? I mean it has passed the test of correlation by a committee that includes men I sustain every six months as prophets, seers and revelators. I don't believe there is anything in that book that all 15 of our prophets fail to agree on. And while the General Conference of the Church has not voted upon GOSPEL PRINCIPLES, it has sustained 15 prophets, seers and revelators every six months. I believe it is a false statement that there is very little official Church doctrine. The problem in this Church isn't that there is so little official doctrine, but that so few members know it very well, and so many of them believe a lot of other foolishness. Well, good doctrine drives out bad, and vice versa. We are not free to just believe whatever we want. Whatever we believe has to be in harmony with true, ie. correct doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
I agree Ron, and further think that the right question might be one of trying to figure out why we misunderstand what he has said. The first option ought to be to reconcile what I/You think he said with what we either understand or could learn from a better understanding of his message. It seems that this is the primary response from people on the list - and that pleases me. George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:54 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? George, I think your comments are interesting and do reflect, to an extent, how we regard comments from various authorities. I happen to think that Elder Nelson's comments, generally, were provocative and instructive. However, I do believe he *inadvertantly* redefined terms that, in essence, could redefine what the church has taught for generations. My underwear doesn't bunch-up because of it nor do I quail at the thought of pointing out where he erred, IMO. Frankly, his coagulation has no impact whatsoever on how I apply the gospel in my life. How one applies the gospel in one's life, in the here and now, is the gospel's bottom line. IMO, what we believe about the great-by-and-by is relevant only if it shapes or re-shapes what we DO now. Elder Nelson's views, or similar ones, will not reshape how I DO in the here and now. Finally, it is refreshing to me that men at the top of Church have their own points of view about various teachings but remain reasonably consistent about the importance of DOING the word NOW because such leads to stronger and more stable individuals, families and and communities. IMO we would all be better off fewer 'DEFINITIONS' and lot more 'I DON'T KNOWS. For instance, more might be provoked to think. Ron Scott -Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? Yes, but that is a tough position to take. Like you I keep waiting for some correction from someone, but it does not seem to be happening. It is an interesting question to consider. How do we treat comments from authoritative sources that disagree with others such sources, or with the scriptures? It is too often a tendency to throw quotes rather than to think through a question, and now we find it so easy to dismiss quotes from Elder Nelson, an Apostle - and one that is not normally one to create such discussions. George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:09 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? -Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. As I mentioned in a previous post, I think Elder Nelson got it wrong, merged two definitions that shouldn't have been merged. // // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // // / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1
Then why the silly suggestion you offered? George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:56 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 George: I think it's safe to say at this point that Mother Theresa understands the nature of God quite well, probably better than any of us. While she lived on this earth she personified what God teaches. A refresher course from us therefore is quite unnecessary. Ron -Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 I would be happy to teach Mother Theresa about the nature of God. Could you arrange a meeting? George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:05 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 Anything controversial here? I don't think so. And yet we are the only Church upon the earth that teaches this most basic and fundamental truth about God, that he is an actual, physical being, as tangible as man is. How can anyone know anything about God that is correct if he doesn't understand the most basic fundamental truth about him? Religion may not be the same as mathematics, but one has to get the most basic fundamentals right if he want to understand anything else. Wouldn't you agree? Tell that to Mother Theresa. // // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // // / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1
You put me right in the corner with that observation. I try not to leave myself open to such situations. George - Original Message - From: Tom Matkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 - Original Message - From: George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 I would be happy to teach Mother Theresa about the nature of God. Could you arrange a meeting? George I thought you were happy to recently avoid such an opportunity. Now you're asking for someone to help you with the arrangements! Make up your mind George. We want you to stay. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1
Well she may have gotten the message, but was a long way from understanding the nature of God and His real relationship with His children. I do not think that is denigrating her offering and her truly magnificant life at all. It is just the result of her religious affliation. And while I am willing to admit she could show and teach me more than I thing or two, I also believe that I would have a great deal more to offer her. George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 Silly suggestion? I suppose it was, given that she has passed on. Were she here, though, my response would have been the same. We couldn't teach Mother Theresa much about the nature of God that she didn't already know because, in reality, so much of His true nature was evident in her and others like her. She truly got Him. Ron -Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 Then why the silly suggestion you offered? George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:56 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 George: I think it's safe to say at this point that Mother Theresa understands the nature of God quite well, probably better than any of us. While she lived on this earth she personified what God teaches. A refresher course from us therefore is quite unnecessary. Ron -Original Message- From: George Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 I would be happy to teach Mother Theresa about the nature of God. Could you arrange a meeting? George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:05 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Church Doctrine #1 Anything controversial here? I don't think so. And yet we are the only Church upon the earth that teaches this most basic and fundamental truth about God, that he is an actual, physical being, as tangible as man is. How can anyone know anything about God that is correct if he doesn't understand the most basic fundamental truth about him? Religion may not be the same as mathematics, but one has to get the most basic fundamentals right if he want to understand anything else. Wouldn't you agree? Tell that to Mother Theresa. // // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // // / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // // // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // // / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u
Re: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1
Absolutely true, but she will still need a teacher. She will still have to listen to the missionaries and accept the truth. Short cuts? Maybe, but she will still have to go through the hoops. George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:09 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1 Gary: Thank you very much. I couldn't have said it better myself. But I'll add one thing: I have a hunch that in the final analysis her life-long goodness renders her doctrinal deficenies if not meanignless then very surmountable. But that's just one man's opinion. Ron -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Official Doctrine #1 The poorest widows in the USA that I've known are still much more comfortable than the average middle class person in Calcutta! Mother Theresa came from a decent, middle class family, but forsake it all to work with the poor. She risked all manner of diseases (Typhoid, Tetanus, Malaria, Diphtheria, Yellow Fever, etc) as she went amongst the poorest in the city to aid them. You cannot imagine what true poverty is like, until you've gone to a truly poor country and spent time with the peoples there. The widow who gives her mite, is a righteous person, but she still hasn't given all of her time, talents, and energy to serve. And remember it was Christ who said that when we have done it unto one of the least of these, we've done it unto him. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Was Mother Theresa more righteous or just more famous for her righteousness than say the widow in your ward that give the widows mite to the Fast Offering? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] John, it is equally cruel to teach that the only true doctrine is the one and the way you understand it. There are very few, I mean very few, beleifs that are truly doctine. Even many of the beliefs accepted by the majority of the members are not true. It is unwise to set up a standard built on the understanding of anything but the reveleation of the truth, and much of that is not to be shared as absolute doctrine by the individual who has received it. Simply stating the belief or quoting someone else that also believes that way does not establish the truth of the doctrine. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? In the February ENSIGN, Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve wrote an article in which he stated unequivocally that God's love is NOT unconditional. It is divine, and it is infinite, but it is very much conditional upon repentance and obedience to divine law. In the article, Elder Nelson says: --- Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly unconditional can defend us against common fallacies such as these: Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...; or Since God is love, He will love me unconditionally, regardless... These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Nehor, for example, promoted himself by teaching falsehoods: He testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, for the Lord had created all men, and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. Sadly, some of the people believed Nehor's fallacious and unconditional concepts. --- The whole article, explaining from the scriptures the highly conditional quality of God's love may be read at http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2003.htm/ensign%20february%202003.htm/divine%20love.htm?fn=document-frameset.htm$f=templates$3.0 Which leads me to ask another question? Is a loving parent strict or permissive? And is Heavenly Father a strict or permissive parent? Finally, how loving is it to teach false doctrine that will certainly motivate some to procrastinate their repentance until it is too late to repent? Or is it ever too late to repent? In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. In conference yet George - Original Message - From: Ron Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:32 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional? SNIP God's love is certainly unconditional in the sense that he loves all his children, probably even Lucifer. But his willingness and ability to bless those he loves is predicated upon their cooperation and obedience. He not only will not force any man to heaven, he cannot. Is God's love unconditional? Yes or no depending on what you mean by unconditional. I may have posted too hastily and therefore didn't clarify well. Fact is, I think we agree. But, this whole issue gets so bolluxed-up (witness the confusing faith/works/grace piece in ths months Engisn) that I'll try one more time to explain myself. God's love for us is unconditional. Because he loves, he is ever-ready to go to bat for us. That is, he is ready to fogive us our errors when we are ready to acknowledge them and repent. It follows that he can't begin to bless us UNTIL we choose to be obedient, nor can be bestow more blessing on us unless we consistently heed His counsel. God's unconditional love has absolutely nothing to the with the heretical doctrine of eat, drink, be merry and repent on your death you wrote about so colorfully. No doubt God, because He loves us unconditionally, can, and probably does forgive someone who sincerely repents on his deathbed. But, God can not begin to bestow blessing -- okay, call them rewards if you insist -- until one has begun to live by His word. Finally, recall that Christ's unconditional love for us -- his grace -- guarantees all of us eternal life. What kind of eternal life we are given depends on His assessment of our faithfulness. I hope this is clearer than the earlier post. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
What you say here is true, John. It is so easy to go further, as some do, and suggest that they are the ones that know thre real truth about so many other doctrines that you have not mentioned. And that is where the problem is often found. I do not think you are unwise, in fact I think that declaring the doctrine is one of my strengths as well as one of yours. It is just very easy to go too far. Some things are not clear and if you have two members disagreeing it does not mean that it is easy to determine which is right, if either of them is right, and which is wrong. So we need, in so many ways, to be careful. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:43 PM Subject: [ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine George Cobabe wrote: In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] John, it is equally cruel to teach that the only true doctrine is the one and the way you understand it. I disagree. It is not equally true IF my understanding of doctrine is correct. There are very few, I mean very few, beleifs that are truly doctine. I disagree again. There are MANY irrefutably true doctrines: 1) There is a God. 2) Jesus Christ is his Son. 3) Joseph Smith is a true prophet. 4) The Book of Mormon is the Word of God. 5) The Bible is the Word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. 6) Jesus Christ is the Redeemer of the World. 7) Gordon B. Hinckley is a true prophet just as Joseph Smith or Moses were. 8) A man cannot be saved without faith in Christ, repentance and baptism. 9) There are three kingdoms of glory. 10) There is a universal resurrection. 11) The Law of Tithing is God's Law. 12) The Law of Chastity is God's Law. and so forth and so on. Even many of the beliefs accepted by the majority of the members are not true. This is true, but it is also irrelevent. It is unwise to set up a standard built on the understanding of anything but the reveleation of the truth, and much of that is not to be shared as absolute doctrine by the individual who has received it. I know that you think I am unwise George. Fortunately, I only need to impress Heavenly Father with my wisdom. Simply stating the belief or quoting someone else that also believes that way does not establish the truth of the doctrine. Of course. This is so obvious that I'm surprised that you would think it needs saying. An understanding of true doctrine is ESSENTIAL to salvation. Without it, no one would ever have faith in Christ or repent of his sins. And salvation is impossible without faith and repentance. That is not just personal opinion. That is the Law of God. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
Thought you might like to read a short paper I wrote which may have some application to the question. George - Original Message - From: Harold Stuart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite On Nov 1, 2003, at 8:08 AM, Paul Osborne wrote: What is going on here? What about the two churches spoken of in the Book of Mormon, i.e. the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil? I guess no one believes it anymore. The Church sure has changed. Paul, I'm not convinced that much has changed. Let's take a look at some examples: 1: The land on which the Cathedral of the Madeline in Salt Lake stands was donated by the Church. The same goes for a Jewish synagogue. 2: The LDS Christmas Carol Far, Far Away On Judea's Plains was written for a Catholic mass held in the Saint George Tabernacle. The choir was LDS, and their director trained them to sing the Latin mass and composed the carol for the occasion. 3: Before the advent of LDS Humanitarian Services, the Church worked with Catholic Charities to help alleviate famine in Africa. There are many more examples, as well. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts With G
Well Tom, you say count and I say confirm, but either way I am happy to still be speculating on that, rather than having a sure knowledge. At your suggestion, and after some thought, I have repeated the email I sent to the other list for the edification, I hope, of these good list members. Folks, I would like to take a bit of your time to share the past few weeks with you. I would like you to know of the great blessing I have received. First I am beyond OK, although at first it did not seem that I would be able to say so in such a short time. All of the tests and pathology reports came back in the best possible language. They could not have been better. So Hoo Ray!!! Hoo Ray!!! Hoo Ray for me On Oct 8th I went in for a routine colonoscopy, I had no symptoms and no reason for any sort of fear. Afterward the doctor told me how lucky I was, that if I had not had the test then I likely would have developed Cancer unknown, and would have been dead in a year. On friday they tried to call me but were unable to reach me until I returned the call on Monday Morning. I was told that the 2cm polpyl that they had taken out was Cancerous. I do not understate it when I say I was a bit scared. Spent a bit of time as I worked that day with tears in my eyes as I thought of all the horrible implications. Monday I had a appt with my regular doctor and scheduled a visit with the surgeon the next day. ***First significant event. That night I was restless and unable to sleep and found myself in prayer. I will not relate the sacred and strong events of that night as I hope to have many more similiar events. I will tell you that God bore witness to me that I was OK, He truly loved me and my family, and that I had nothing to fear as it was not my time to go - even though I expressed a willingness to do so. I NEVER had a moment of concern after that moment. If nothing else had happened in regard to these events this night with my Father in Heaven would have made all else worth it. Can you understand what I am saying? To receive such a witness is worth any price. Tuesday - saw the Surgeon and scheduled Surgery for Thursday mid day. ***Second significant event. I had all my family gather at my home and we told them what was going on with their Father. I have five kids. Three I can brag about with the best of you. They do everything right. Two are a bit of a challenge - and I look for opportunities to testify to them of what is important to me. Family, Church, Priesthood. We had my two worthy sons bless me and then had a family prayer. My kids all organized themselve to cover the children and allow the one couple to proceed with previous plans in spite of Dad not being available. Who was touched most, you ask? Guess who - you are right the two I want to witness to the most. You see, once again, if nothing else had happened in regard to these events save the influence I am able to have on my two problems, it would have been worth it. Can you see how I am blessed? Cat Scan on Wednesday and Surgery on Thursday. All goes well and recovery is remarkable. I went in healthy and did what I was told. I heal quick. ***Third significant event. Simple story - profound meanings. As I was lieing in bed healing in the hospital my wife was making phone calls doing some Visiting Teaching follow up. I must of moved or groaned or something. She wondered if she was bothering me with the sound of the phone calls. The most profound feelings of love and appreciation for this woman came over me and I realized how the exact opposite was true. The sound of HER voice was the healing influence I needed. I have always loved my wife, but for that moment I knew how important she really was to me, Once again this event alone would have made the experience worth the trial. Out of the hospital in four days instead of eight having never really having pain and only a little discomfort. I am doing fine although I do get tired easy. More than I had ever imagined before I know what is meant by being blessed by our trials. The trials and suffering, whether great or as in my case very small, truly do bring the blessing of heaven. I understand more that ever how people say they would never give up the tough experience they have had. I love God, and more importantly I know He loves me. What more could I ask for??? Bless you all, I hope I have not rambled on incessantly. Thanks for your concerns, George - Original Message - From: Tom Matkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Starts With G Don't forget George while you are at it, Tom. I hope that it will be in the good column, George Of course! G is for George. George the good. Or - Good Old George. Yes Jesus love you. You know that, and not just because the bible tells you so. Have you shared your recent experiences with this list George? I was trying so hard to be
Re: [ZION] Starts With G
Don't forget George while you are at it, Tom. I hope that it will be in the good column, George - Original Message - From: Tom Matkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 2:50 PM Subject: [ZION] Starts With G Think of how many things that start with G need to be taught (learned?). There is so much to learn about God, just as much to know about good or goodness. What about gratitude, grace, guilt, gentleness, or glory. And there are things like gambling and gossip. I have something to say about them. What is wrong with gambling? I know it's trying to get something for nothing, at least that's what we are told. But what's so wrong with that? Besides it isn't strictly true. The gambler does offer something, actually usually a lot more than he gets. And he certainly accepts risk. I guess one drawback to gambling is that it seems to be addictive and win or lose it leads to other undesirable things. The winner is proud, for absolutely no good reason. The worst sort of pride. The loser is distraught, for very good reason. The worst sort of grief. And the loser sometimes tries to cover his or her losses by stealing or other sad things. You read about that in the paper everyday. Bookkeeper at Laundry Indicted for Fraud - Stole over $100,000 to try to make up for Vegas binges. But really the worst thing about gambling is that it steals your hope from where it belongs. People who buy lottery tickets or bet the horses or the football pools do it because they are hoping it will make them happy. They place their hope on that winning number to make this life less miserable. This robs them of the initiative to do the real things that bring happiness, like living the gospel with exactness and drawing nearer to God. Our hope should be in Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, not in Friday's 6-49 draw. Where your (hope for) treasure is, there will your heart be also. You can't serve God and the Lottery You get the idea. That's why I think gambling is a pernicious evil, it presents a destructive counterfeit method of finding relief from the troubles of this world. What else is wrong with gambling? I'll write about gossip another time. Maybe later today. And gladness, grudges, guile, gospel, gifts, genealogy, guidance and gross. Nice to be back. Natasha kicked me off Zion on her own back near the end of that brouhaha with George and I could never find the list again. My version of Topica didn't even show Zion as a place. When Natasha banishes you she does it right. I did find George again but lost Jim. Jim stayed right here, right? Think about gird, gathering, and gulf. Ah yes, G is where it's at. There's so much to talk about, and we haven't even considered the words that begin with eh. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts With G
Are you the one, I thought it was Marc Schindler but am likely mistaken. I am not so sure anyone but me would appreciate your referral. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Starts With G On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:21:49 -0700 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Don't forget George while you are at it, Tom. I hope that it will be in the good column, George And, don't forget I'm the one that told you about the Zion list. :-)) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Conversion
I do not know that he needs a new family, John. He just needs some of them to repent. His dad is my favority uncle and one that shows me great love and concern and I kinow he loves Jim, cause he tells me so. There are some stange ones in our family - as there are in any family. To those who claim differently I say well good for you, but why could not God trust you with the tough ones. We have a few tough ones in the Cobabe clan, but more than enough good to handle the challenges. Don't you agree, Jim George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Conversion Jim Cobabe wrote: I am continually wounded by discussions that use family metaphors regarding church fellowship. Over the past decade my family ties have been tested, both bonds with literal blood-relations and fellow saints. Many of the alliances I thought I could depend on came apart in times of trial, and some even turned around to become my personal stumbling-blocks. You just need a new family, Jim. And don't forget, you still have family that have not abandoned you. Seems like I had dinner with them just a few months back. Your point about having the right relationship with God is true, however. Ultimately, we all need a certain degree of self-sufficiency and our own relationship with the Holy Ghost. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter?
Piles of flowers. I say amen to this proposal and suggest that we think of a way to get the word out to enough people to make it so. Hi, Lonnie. Still acting as silly as ever, well good luck to you the Lord loves you in spite of your foolishness. Here's a flower to make you feel better. See you next year. Say that enough times and the effect might just be magical. George - Original Message - From: Rusty Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter? When I first heard of this incident, my gut reaction was anger and disgust at the streetpreachers. However, as I thought of it, I told Bob that what should be done at the next Conference (figuring that they will be there again, being offensive again) is everyone going to Conference should buy a single flower - one per person - and tape a message to the stem, saying, The Lord loves you.. Then, walk by these people on purpose and lay the flower at their feet and smile sweetly at them. Can you imagine these people with mound of tens of thousands of flowers around them?! Let them be the irrational ones. Let us rise above it and be the examples of Christ. That would be something to take a picture of, wouldn't it? I don't know if the media would pick it up, but one can only hope. Even if they didn't, it would be very satisfying to know that we didn't descend to their level. And, as has been noted, the Lord will deal with them in His own time. We just need to be patient enough to let Him do that. As offensive as it is to see someone desecrating temple garments, the garments themselves aren't what is sacred - they are a symbol of our devotion to God. But they only have any real significance when actually worn by someone that is true to the covenants made with God. Rusty Well, here I might agree with you. If your going to do it, a full swing with a large print quad in a tote would do a lot of damage, and might be worth it. It might make them think twice before doing their disgusting thing. On the other hand, I think that what should happen at the next conference is for everyone who passes - I mean EVERYONE - to stop, smile, say hello, shake their hand, pat their back, etc. NOTHING in this world would irritate them more than this. Can you say apoplectic stroke??? I knew you could! Jon ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter?
Bob Lonsberry is a radio personality with an early morning talk show in Utah and New York. He lives and works out of Rodchester, NY and simultcasts to both markets for part of the show. What are you incensed about? Is it the fact of the essay or the conclusion reached??? I thought it a good and thoughtful piece that expresses a very valid point. George - Original Message - From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 5:27 AM Subject: [ZION] Breaking the charter? Dear ones, I received the following by email. It probably violates the charter for me to forward it... but does anyone know the truth of this? I am incensed! === HOW ABOUT TOLERANCE FOR ALL? Some Muslims wear sacred clothing. So do some Jews. The same for Native Americans and some Hindus and others. Bits of cloth or string that are physical reminders of God and his bond with man. Sacred things, really, prayer shawls or beads, head coverings or aprons, medicine bags. Things that are special to people, honorable and good things. Things that should be respected. One would not, for example, rip the yarmulke from a Jewish man's head and mockingly fling it like a Frisbee. Nor would you wear a yarmulke as a spoof or joke. Certainly not as an attack on Judaism. Not as a mockery of Jews and their faith. Yet something like that happened this weekend. In front of thousands of people in one of America's great cities. An act of religious desecration, bigotry and discrimination. And the perpetrators boast of it to the press. It was in Salt Lake City. And it was against Mormons. And somehow that makes it acceptable. Here's what happened. Over the weekend, Mormons gathered for what they call general conference. It is a twice-a-year meeting that draws tens of thousands to Salt Lake City and is broadcast around the world to an audience in the low millions. It is a worship service. It is sacred and special to them. And each year it is protested. So-called Christian evangelists stand on the sidewalk outside the Mormon meetings and shout rude condemnations of the religion to the thousands who pass in and out. It is an odd spectacle, unmatched in American society. To think that crude protesters would stand outside a mosque or synagogue, or a cathedral or church, and harass worshipers and denounce a religion is just beyond the pale. It is an act of indefensible religious bigotry. And yet it happens, and is often applauded and boasted of. This column started with a mention of sacred clothing. Well, Mormons have sacred clothing, too. Like a variety of religious garments, it is worn against the skin. It is a type of underclothing. They don't talk about it. They don't show it to people. They keep it sacred. Like virtually all-religious clothing, it is a specific reminder of promises made to God. Like virtually all religious clothing, it is precious and significant to the people who wear it. Well, Sunday the evangelists had some. Maybe six guys, Baptist ministers, mocking the Mormons as they came out of a meeting. Shouting rude things to people coming out of church. And they had these sacred garments. And one supposed minister of the gospel was wiping his backside with them, laughingly treating them like toilet paper as thousands who held them sacred walked by. Can you see that being done to a prayer shawl in front of a Synagogue, or a prayer rug in front of a mosque? Wouldn't all decent people publicly denounce that sacrilege? He also draped them around his neck, and pretended over and over to sneeze into them. And loudly blow his nose into them. While families and children walked past. Stop for a moment. Lay aside what you do or don't think about Mormons. But was that right? More to the point, was that Christian? Is that what Jesus would do? Is that what any decent person of any faith would do? Absolutely not. It is wrong, bigoted and un-American. No matter who it's against. It was an affront. It smelled like the bigotry of the Klan and the Third Reich. And yet the ministers boasted of it to reporters and posed for pictures and no one in the Utah or American religious, media or civil rights communities has condemned it. And, oddly, two worshipers were taken away in handcuffs. One man, dressed in his church clothes, walked past in the crowd, saw the insults and desecrations, and grabbed the piece of clothing. To protect it. He was charged with robbery and taken to jail. Half an hour later another worshiper similarly grabbed a molested garment and attempted to take it away. He was unsuccessful and waiting police stepped in to take him into custody. And that's the world we live in. You are harangued for your beliefs and arrested for defending them.
Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter?
The streetpreachers belong to an organization whose entire object is to harrass those who disagree with them. Check out Streetpreachers.com or something close to that. They openly declare that the truth is not important, after all we are going to Hell anyway so truth is irrelevant. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter? Whether this happened or did not happen, it certainly could have and has in other places. One example is that some missionaries, short on time, took their laundry to a local cleaners (bad decision #1). The owner kept a pair of garments and displayed them in the window (bad decision #2) and would not give them back to the missionaries (bad decision #3). The Mission President went over and had a private conversation with the owner and got the garments back (good decision #1, which trumped all the bad decisions). The MP set a new rule (guess what?, and good decision #2). The ministers out in front of GC are not Christians. They are clearly servants of Satan. Their actions should have been decried by anyone of good faith. In the US, their actions are protected speech. While the actions of the two members in response to this provocation are understandable from an emotional point of view, the members who took the garments away probably exercised poor judgment. We are not a people of martyrs. We have endured many things and hope to endure all things. In my opinion, there are many better ways to spend one's time serving the Lord than dealing with a theft charge. On the other hand, I hope that I would have been able to ignore these idiot servants of Satan! Jon - Original Message - From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 7:27 AM Subject: [ZION] Breaking the charter? Dear ones, I received the following by email. It probably violates the charter for me to forward it... but does anyone know the truth of this? I am incensed! === HOW ABOUT TOLERANCE FOR ALL? Some Muslims wear sacred clothing. So do some Jews. The same for Native Americans and some Hindus and others. Bits of cloth or string that are physical reminders of God and his bond with man. Sacred things, really, prayer shawls or beads, head coverings or aprons, medicine bags. Things that are special to people, honorable and good things. Things that should be respected. One would not, for example, rip the yarmulke from a Jewish man's head and mockingly fling it like a Frisbee. Nor would you wear a yarmulke as a spoof or joke. Certainly not as an attack on Judaism. Not as a mockery of Jews and their faith. Yet something like that happened this weekend. In front of thousands of people in one of America's great cities. An act of religious desecration, bigotry and discrimination. And the perpetrators boast of it to the press. It was in Salt Lake City. And it was against Mormons. And somehow that makes it acceptable. Here's what happened. Over the weekend, Mormons gathered for what they call general conference. It is a twice-a-year meeting that draws tens of thousands to Salt Lake City and is broadcast around the world to an audience in the low millions. It is a worship service. It is sacred and special to them. And each year it is protested. So-called Christian evangelists stand on the sidewalk outside the Mormon meetings and shout rude condemnations of the religion to the thousands who pass in and out. It is an odd spectacle, unmatched in American society. To think that crude protesters would stand outside a mosque or synagogue, or a cathedral or church, and harass worshipers and denounce a religion is just beyond the pale. It is an act of indefensible religious bigotry. And yet it happens, and is often applauded and boasted of. This column started with a mention of sacred clothing. Well, Mormons have sacred clothing, too. Like a variety of religious garments, it is worn against the skin. It is a type of underclothing. They don't talk about it. They don't show it to people. They keep it sacred. Like virtually all-religious clothing, it is a specific reminder of promises made to God. Like virtually all religious clothing, it is precious and significant to the people who wear it. Well, Sunday the evangelists had some. Maybe six guys, Baptist ministers, mocking the Mormons as they came out of a meeting. Shouting rude things to people coming out of church. And they had these sacred garments. And one supposed minister of the gospel was wiping his backside with them, laughingly treating them like toilet paper as thousands who held them sacred walked by. Can you see that
Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter?
OK, I thought that you were upset with the writer, Bob Lonsberry. The rest I understand. George - Original Message - From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter? George Cobabe wrote: What are you incensed about? Is it the fact of the essay or the conclusion reached??? Grampa Bill answers: I am incensed at the initial act of bigotry and blasphemy. I am further incensed that the police arrested my brethren. There are times when a quick run to the nearest Krispy Kreme is appropriate. This was such a time. In my mind I can hear 37 radio calls to the comm center simultaneously, I'm ten-seven at Dunkin' Donuts! And while we're on the subject, where are the Danites when you really need 'em? Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Salvation
The idea that the word Salvation only refers to the Exaltation that comes with obeidience and the Atonement is, I beleive, correct. It, nevertheless, has other meanings. Namely Salvation from Adam's transgression which comes to all men. I susopect that it is a general observation that could be modified with close inspection. As a by the way, I suggest that Exaltation only refers to all that the Father has to give us, and not a partial load. But that would start a whole nother discussion which so many want to avoid. George - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Salvation Strangely, John, I was looking this up not that long ago. And I couldn't find anything which indicated the Lord's salvation was anything less than the best He has to offer. I wondered then if this is where John Taylor picked up his the Kingdom of God or nothing slogan. Anyone else find anything different? *jeep! ~~Chet If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong. Gus Segar via Popeye -- John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Last month the high council speaker in Juneau Third Ward spoke on the topic of Salvation, and he used the writings of Gerald Lund as his primary source in addition to the scriptures. During his talk he said something that I found particularly interesting. He said, In the scriptures, the term 'salvation' is never used to mean anything less than exaltation or eternal life in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. I don't know if this is true or not; but if it is, then it could have settled many of the differences of opinion I had with Gary Smith, and perhaps he would still be participating on my email lists. In scripture, does the word salvation ever specifically denote a telestial or a terrestrial glory? Does it ever specifically denote the condition of ministering angels who have achieved the celestial kingdom but failed to obtain the highest degree? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] error?
Paul, I have never really been active on the message boards. It is the closed FAIR list where I spend most of my time. I am not aware of when or how you were kicked off or brought back, but I do know there is some discussion of the value of the message boards, but more because of the anti's that get on and cause disenstion among the participants. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 7:17 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] error? On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:18:44 -0600 (GMT-06 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul, I have not seen anyone on the FAIR list called truth. Everyone that posts there uses a real (???) name rather than some sort of code word. Are you sure you are speaking of the FAIR list or the FAIR message boards. The one is open to all the other is a closed list. I suspect you are referring to the message boards, rather than the FAIR list. George Oh, of course, it's the FAIR message board where I first met you, George. After I got booted several people begged to have me brought back and there was really quite a discussion about it. Since I have 4 computers in my house and two internet servers it wasn't much problem getting back on. I've been nice and am trying to learn new ways in dealing with people. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Amen, Jim.
It is too often that people, even members that ought to know better forget
this basic truth. We are told not to judge unfairly or unwisely. We are
never told NOT to judge, for as you suggest it is an essential part of the
gospel of Jesus Christ.
George
- Original Message -
From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 9:15 AM
Subject: RE: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Paul Osborne wrote:
---
No one made you the judge.
---
It would be pleasant to believe this. I could suspend all my struggles
at discernment and tell myself, Not to worry, you're not the judge.
Let someone else decide what is right and wrong.
However easy that might be, it is not the gospel...
For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may
know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know
with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
(Moroni 7:15)
//
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
//
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
--^
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Re: [ZION] Language
Well I have to check on my reading of the text when compared with yours. Was this a summary of the great classic Lrod of the Rngis? Or stonihmeg esle? George - Original Message - From: Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Undisclosed-Recipient: Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 6:45 AM Subject: [ZION] Language Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe. yikes.. I didn't have problems reading this the first time through.. Anyone have any problems? Let Freedom Ring! Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations -- entangling alliances with none. --Thomas Jefferson // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to understand the subject. I think that if you really take a look at the subject you would find a completely different approach than the one you suggest. The relationship between a married couple has been used for centuries, and for good reason, to suggest the proper relationship between Christ and his followers. I do not think that this would be the case if the marriage, and the womans part in it, were so despicable as you suggest. I am currently reading a book called Beloved Bridegoom by Donna B. Nielsen. It discusses this topic. It has a sub-title of Finding Christ in Ancient Jewish Marriage and Family Customs. You might find this very informative. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:32:31 -0400 Chet Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since Joseph noted that Paul had been mistranslated -- what Paul (not Paul Osborne) actually advised was that it wasn't correct for women to RULE in church. If you read the rest of Paul's letter, it's pretty obvious that men shouldn't RULE in church either. Ha! I don't by that. The Jews and the early Christians were a strange people altogether. There customs and habits were nothing like we are use to. Woman were second class citizens too. The Egyptians and the Greeks treated their woman better than the Jews ever did! When it comes to marriage and woman's rights the Jews were pathetic. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
I do not think that the scriptures bear that out at all, rather the opposite. I will admit, readilly, that the social customs of that time are different from those of our time. And it may be that a superficial look at the practices may make them look unacceptable to us today. But when we take time to truly understand their situation we would find the kind of relationship that would warrent the comparison with our desired relationship with Christ. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:55:36 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to Well, I've looked at the subject and from what I have read about the Jews they treated their woman like second class citizens. Don't the scriptures bear that out? I've read a lot of material about the Egyptians and they treated their woman descent with a lot more rights then the Jews ever gave their woman. The ancient Jews were a cruel people, IMNSHO. What does Tag have to say? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
No. You and I are not in a postion to make such judgements and should not do so. Can you imagine telling the family of such a victim this speculation? You do not know the circumstances or the state of mind of such a person and cannot understand the judgement that will be offered to them. Comments may be found to the contrary, but the thinking and practice on this subject has changed a great deal in the past number of years in the church. I have a friend whose father was a successful businessman, with a lovely family, a great contributor to charity and whose name is prominently displayed as a major contributor to BYU. He had the world by the tail by any standard. He was the Bishop of a singles ward and when released from that calling went into a depressive period which ended when he took his life. The Apostles, yes plural, which spoke at his funeral make it clear that you should not judge him unwisely or harshly. I would take their advice on this matter. George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 3:41 AM Subject: [ZION] Where Suicides Go I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial being. Am I right on this point? Stacy. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Jon, I am having trouble seeing where we disagree. I think you have stated the case very well. The basic answer to the original question is that the person who committs suicide is not to be judged by anyone other than God. And there is no automatic assignment to some lessor kingdom because of the act. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide. Just as with any other transgression of law, intent is an important factor. I don't know about anyone else, but I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what my state of mind is, much less anyone else's. There is no set rule for many things. For example, we know that murder is the spilling of innocent blood. What if a criminal is holding many people hostage and is about to kill one of them. A sniper tries to shoot the killer, but somehow kills a captive instead. This is certainly the spilling of innocent blood, so its murder, right? Is it? What about someone who is so mentally unbalanced at some moment that they commit suicide, where there is no way that they would do so under normal circumstances. Are they really exercising agency in the same manner that they would if they cheated on their husband (and you thought I was talking about a man!)? I don't think so, but my opinion is irrelevant. She will be judged by someone with perfect knowledge. I am quite happy to leave that judgment to someone qualified to make it, because I am most certainly NOT qualified to make it. Jon George Cobabe wrote: No. You and I are not in a postion to make such judgements and should not do so. Can you imagine telling the family of such a victim this speculation? You do not know the circumstances or the state of mind of such a person and cannot understand the judgement that will be offered to them. Comments may be found to the contrary, but the thinking and practice on this subject has changed a great deal in the past number of years in the church. I have a friend whose father was a successful businessman, with a lovely family, a great contributor to charity and whose name is prominently displayed as a major contributor to BYU. He had the world by the tail by any standard. He was the Bishop of a singles ward and when released from that calling went into a depressive period which ended when he took his life. The Apostles, yes plural, which spoke at his funeral make it clear that you should not judge him unwisely or harshly. I would take their advice on this matter. George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 3:41 AM Subject: [ZION] Where Suicides Go I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial being. Am I right on this point? Stacy. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Oh - well I had a hearing test this morning - passed perfectly in spite of my wifes contention that I am going deaf - guess I need to check my reading skills a bit closer. I am so used to having someone disagree that it just came naturally to me. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go Hmmm, need new glasses, George. I quote: I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide. (note that little word agree.) So it is indeed good that you are having trouble seeing where we disagree :-) Jon - Original Message - From: George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go Jon, I am having trouble seeing where we disagree. I think you have stated the case very well. The basic answer to the original question is that the person who committs suicide is not to be judged by anyone other than God. And there is no automatic assignment to some lessor kingdom because of the act. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide. Just as with any other transgression of law, intent is an important factor. I don't know about anyone else, but I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what my state of mind is, much less anyone else's. There is no set rule for many things. For example, we know that murder is the spilling of innocent blood. What if a criminal is holding many people hostage and is about to kill one of them. A sniper tries to shoot the killer, but somehow kills a captive instead. This is certainly the spilling of innocent blood, so its murder, right? Is it? What about someone who is so mentally unbalanced at some moment that they commit suicide, where there is no way that they would do so under normal circumstances. Are they really exercising agency in the same manner that they would if they cheated on their husband (and you thought I was talking about a man!)? I don't think so, but my opinion is irrelevant. She will be judged by someone with perfect knowledge. I am quite happy to leave that judgment to someone qualified to make it, because I am most certainly NOT qualified to make it. Jon George Cobabe wrote: No. You and I are not in a postion to make such judgements and should not do so. Can you imagine telling the family of such a victim this speculation? You do not know the circumstances or the state of mind of such a person and cannot understand the judgement that will be offered to them. Comments may be found to the contrary, but the thinking and practice on this subject has changed a great deal in the past number of years in the church. I have a friend whose father was a successful businessman, with a lovely family, a great contributor to charity and whose name is prominently displayed as a major contributor to BYU. He had the world by the tail by any standard. He was the Bishop of a singles ward and when released from that calling went into a depressive period which ended when he took his life. The Apostles, yes plural, which spoke at his funeral make it clear that you should not judge him unwisely or harshly. I would take their advice on this matter. George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 3:41 AM Subject: [ZION] Where Suicides Go I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial being. Am I right on this point? Stacy. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
Re: [ZION] freedom versus free agency
Well Stacy everyone is in the same boat to one degree or another. We too often talk about our freedom without ever considering what that would mean in an absolute sense. True perfect freedom only comes with perfect knowledge and understanding. When we have anything less our complete freedom suffers. George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] freedom versus free agency Who is really free? I don't consider myself free. Freedom has become a silly joke in my case. Everyone always wants to know where I'm going, when I'll be back, even what I eat. Stacy. At 09:31 AM 09/01/2003 -0600, you wrote: Although I concur with your comments I find the use of the term Free Agency to be a poor choice of words. Notwithstanding it has become a popular term in the church. Rather the idea of Moral Agency is the more useful and I believe correct term. Freedom is a part of Moral Agency, but only a part. Intelligent action based on an understanding of God's will and the consequences of action is also a crucial part of Agency. You are correct when you identify the tremendous barriers, in this life, to a proper use of this crucial and eternal principle. I do not believe that it is possible to truly exercise perfect agency in this life - for anyone, although some have a better opportunity than others. The last chance we had to excursive perfect agency was in the pre-existence in the presence of God. That is why that choice was so crucial - it set the stage for all that happened subsequently. George - Original Message - From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 3:16 AM Subject: [ZION] freedom versus free agency Free agency is an inviolable gift from Heavenly Father. Each of us has absolute free agency to make choices for good or evil. Our freedom, on the other hand, is constantly subjected to bounds and conditions and restrictions. Our freedom is constrained by natural laws, by self-imposed restrictions, by the impositions of other individuals, and by society in general. What is the effect of free agency in the absence of absolute freedom? What if government laws constrain my free exercise of choice? Perhaps Heavenly Father will judge my decisions based on what I would have done had I been completely free to act. In 2 Nephi 2:16, we read that enticement is a necessary element in our decision-making exercise of free agency. What does it mean to be enticed in choosing between good and evil? Is the test of mortal probation in part intended to demonstrate (to myself) which choices are most enticing or attractive to me personally? I assume that Heavenly Father already knew my inclination toward good or evil choices, but that it was something I needed to learn for myself. --- Jim Cobabe /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// / / /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 08/19/2003 -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] freedom versus free agency
Although I concur with your comments I find the use of the term Free Agency to be a poor choice of words. Notwithstanding it has become a popular term in the church. Rather the idea of Moral Agency is the more useful and I believe correct term. Freedom is a part of Moral Agency, but only a part. Intelligent action based on an understanding of God's will and the consequences of action is also a crucial part of Agency. You are correct when you identify the tremendous barriers, in this life, to a proper use of this crucial and eternal principle. I do not believe that it is possible to truly exercise perfect agency in this life - for anyone, although some have a better opportunity than others. The last chance we had to excursive perfect agency was in the pre-existence in the presence of God. That is why that choice was so crucial - it set the stage for all that happened subsequently. George - Original Message - From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 3:16 AM Subject: [ZION] freedom versus free agency Free agency is an inviolable gift from Heavenly Father. Each of us has absolute free agency to make choices for good or evil. Our freedom, on the other hand, is constantly subjected to bounds and conditions and restrictions. Our freedom is constrained by natural laws, by self-imposed restrictions, by the impositions of other individuals, and by society in general. What is the effect of free agency in the absence of absolute freedom? What if government laws constrain my free exercise of choice? Perhaps Heavenly Father will judge my decisions based on what I would have done had I been completely free to act. In 2 Nephi 2:16, we read that enticement is a necessary element in our decision-making exercise of free agency. What does it mean to be enticed in choosing between good and evil? Is the test of mortal probation in part intended to demonstrate (to myself) which choices are most enticing or attractive to me personally? I assume that Heavenly Father already knew my inclination toward good or evil choices, but that it was something I needed to learn for myself. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement
No! There is not one of us truly worthy to be in the temple, as in the presence of God. The atonement makes up for our individual problems and I am sure would keep the Temple pure for those who do their best to attend in faith. George ---Original Message--- From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08/19/03 05:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Temple Defilement I still don't understand the question I asked being answered. We know that many people attend the temple when they shouldn't. Doesn't this defile the temple itself? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden,Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Once again Paul, you find it easy to throw out accusations but are unable to back your words up. I am not trying to get you going about anything. The discussion was in regard to FAIR and what they had to say. You have been unwilling to come up with anything to back up your statements. An apology or at least a retraction would be in order, but I do not expect that it will be forthcoming. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:22:05 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK, Paul I will forget it, especially if you will not just throw irresponsible statements and claims about just any old way. George Oh come on George, you're just trying to get me started. I'm not that dumb. I've been around the block a few times. It won't work this time. I'm going to keep quiet this time and let you wonder about why it is FARMS apologists are now saying that the Nephites used wooden swords to counter the lack of physical evidence at the foot of the hill Cumorah and that FARMS has bowed to science who says there were no horses in America so they now say they rode deer and not horses as translated by Joseph, so, I'll be responsible and not just throw statements out on the Zion list to upset people like you; my mouth is sealed. rolling my eyes Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.
You might think of how Lamanites were described in the BofM. It was not based on race or lineage, rather on the state of righteousness. The membership of the group was constantly changing from one time to another. We recognize in the church the principle of adoption. We give the blessing and all else to the adopted person. In the same way many of the descendants of the the orginal group*S* of people found themselves aligned with either the Nephites or the Lamanites. I think that the statement principal ancestors has more to lead to confusion than is necessary, but it can be read in an entirely different way, than most people understandablly read it, to allow for it to be entirely correct. At any rate it is clear that there were a great deal more of the native populations involved in the current native populations that just direct desendants of Lehi. George - Original Message - From: R. Kent Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 7:50 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C. Kent wonders: So does that mean that only the indians in New York are their descendents, or that the Araucano indians in Southern Chile are also their descendents, or that all Indians of whatever lineage are their descendents, or that early Church leaders were making a gross generalization? Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 08:52 PM 8/12/03 -0600, R. Kent Francis wrote: Kent Francis writes: If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than 500 miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines, Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who were at various times in their history politically fractionated. Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans were Nephite/Lamanites? Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which states that they are the principal ancestors . . . -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
No, I do not. The idea that the DNA from a small group of about 20-30 people in the Lehi party would have a significant impact on the populations already in the Americas is hard to accept and understand. If you can somehow show what kind of DNA you are looking for you will already be way ahead of those who are claiming they cannot find it. What does the DNA of Lehi look like Furthermmore it is the female DNA that passes down intact through the years and most of the female lineage is not identified in the BofM. What is the linage of Ismael and Zoram? For more on this issue you might want to check out fairlds.com. This is a group of LDS apologists that are tracking the issue. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 9:00 PM Subject: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon Who is keeping up on the DNA evidence supporting or refuting the Book of Mormon on the origins of the American Indian? I notice that there is some kind of symposium coming up on whether or not DNA evidence supports or refutes a middle eastern origin for Native Americans. Surely if Lehi was a Hebrew and the ancestor of some significant portion of today's Lamanites, that fact will be buttressed by DNA evidence, don't you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C.
While the statement quoted is the problem it is never the less the fact that for many, many years the idea of other peoples being there first has been a part of the belief of many people. A careful reading of 1st Nephi would lead you to believe that they were interacting with native people from the very first day of their landing in the New World. George - Original Message - From: Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Caral, Peru 2627 B.C. At 08:52 PM 8/12/03 -0600, R. Kent Francis wrote: Kent Francis writes: If we look at the Bible as history, the distances involved are less than 500 miles by 100 miles and the area was inhabited by Phoenesian, Philistines, Syrians, Egyptians and other peoples in addition to the Israelites... who were at various times in their history politically fractionated. Why have we subscribed to the concept that all the native americans were Nephite/Lamanites? Probably due to the statement in the introduction to the BoM which states that they are the principal ancestors . . . -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
Whoops, I am confused about some of the changes and going from one list to another some time ago. Please disregard what I said, I was wrong. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List George Cobabe wrote: That may be Bill, but ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not completely happen. Huh? I don't understand this at all. Zion and Mormon Thinkers are two completely different lists. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America
Well let me try it again. When you work gold you do not change the chemical composition of the original metal - all you do is purify the material and make of it what you want. When you make steel you change the compostion of several metals and other ingredients and make a new metal. It is a chemical process, not just a melting process. Does that make sense? Melting materials and making an object out of it is easy and has been around a long time. Not quite so true of making steel. George - Original Message - From: Scott McGee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America Right, that makes more sense. One is the process of melting metal from ore and working the metal, the other is more, uh, well, melting metal from ore, and, hmm, working the metal. Maybe that doesn't make much sense after all. Scott George Cobabe wrote: I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold and the making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is being objected to when they say they was no metal working. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:20 PM Subject: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America http://www.geotimes.org/aug03/resources.html I found an article on mining and metallurgy in ancient America, mostly in NW South America. I have heard some object to the Book of Mormon on grounds that there has been no evidence of a metal working culture in American archaeology. Apparently I'm missing something. Isn't gold a metal? And didn't the Spanish conquistadors take mountains of gold back to the Old World even to the point of causing a great inflation? Undoubtedly I just don't understand the objection being made. To be honest, I haven't made a study of it, apologetics not being one of my strong interests. Question: Do we yet know where Lehi landed in the Americas, and where the earliest Lehite colonies were? Is it still generally thought that he landed on the coast of modern Chile, or was that ever a popular theory? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// / / /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- The family that prays together, stays together. --- Scott McGee ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) web site: http://themcgees.org/scott/ // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
I am sure that if one wished to repent of their unacceptable behaviour they would be welcome. It is not the place, however, for political discussion. It is a very specialiazed list and interchange. Not much chit chat or arguing. It is without a doubt the best group and list that I have been lucky enough to associate with. George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List It would be nice to have a repentance behavior; after all, there is for the church. Why not Fair? Stacy. At 01:23 PM 08/11/2003 -0800, you wrote: George Cobabe wrote: I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in any area, let alone every area. Many of them have made good contributions that are at least worthy of consideration, if nothing more than as a bad example. The only problem that I have with FAIR is that they kicked me off their list. This was so long ago I can't even remember what my disliked behavior was. I'm sure I deserved it. Still, I think that some of them are pretty thin skinned. --JWR /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in any area, let alone every area. Many of them have made good contributions that are at least worthy of consideration, if nothing more than as a bad example. George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:58 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon At 07:14 AM 8/11/2003, you wrote: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:59:17 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more on this issue you might want to check out fairlds.com. This is a group of LDS apologists that are tracking the issue. Yeah, and this lousy board just excommunicated me for making statements about physiological differences of African lips and that Jesus could not have been black because of the seed of Cain. This world is getting so PC, I can hardly stand to live in it anymore. Who is claiming that Jesus was black? Ideas like this is why I tend to steer away from FAIR--in my experience I've found them to be a bunch of wannabe scholars but lacking in far too many areas. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
Well they did not kick me for suggesting a minor point of doctrine that differed from many peoples beliefs. That is not very thin skinned, at least not as much as some. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 3:23 PM Subject: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List George Cobabe wrote: I do not believe that anyone on FAIR would make such a claim. Paul O. was not speaking of that group of people when he expressed his concern. I am sorry that you have found them lacking in so many areas, but I do not think any of them would claim to be entirely proficent in any area, let alone every area. Many of them have made good contributions that are at least worthy of consideration, if nothing more than as a bad example. The only problem that I have with FAIR is that they kicked me off their list. This was so long ago I can't even remember what my disliked behavior was. I'm sure I deserved it. Still, I think that some of them are pretty thin skinned. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Paul: You have such a tendency to throw things around. Could you provide a reference for anyone who believes about Deer and Wooden swords? Hopefully a url!!! George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:39:36 -0800 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I doubt if you will get banned on this list, Paul. We are not PC. Of course, if you really tried --JWR Thanks JR, as I do try to be extra good around here. I do have to say though that I almost cried when I found out that apologists at BYU now say the Nephites rode deer and not horses. Now we have wooden swords and deer. Somehow that is not what I think Joseph Smith was seeing in the Urim Thummim. I'm sad. :-( Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List
That may be Bill, but ZION was supposed to be discontinued in favor of MormonThinkers sometime ago, or so I understood. Obviously it did not completely happen. Chopped Liver??? Well .. maybe not quite that. George - Original Message - From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 3:56 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Kicked Off the FAIR List George Cobabe wrote of FAIR: It is without a doubt the best group and list that I have been lucky enough to associate with. = Gramp Bill comments: Well, hrumph! What are we... chopped liver? Tried a lot of 'em. Zion's the best! Love y'all Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America
I think you mean steel and if so you are correct. However the problem was with people who do not believe that. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:28:16 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold and the making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is being objected to when they say they was no metal working. George The Book of Mormon tells us that they used steal; both the Nephites and the Jaredites. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon
Paul, you should know that the FAIR message boards are not the FAIR members, but rather visitors who post what they want. If that is the best you can do - accuse FAIR of being responsible for everything on the message boards then you need to correct yourself and tell it correctly. Now it you can give me a reference I will check it out, but I have no time to do your homework and cover your statements for you. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] DNA and the Book of Mormon On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:13:35 -0600 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul: You have such a tendency to throw things around. Could you provide a reference for anyone who believes about Deer and Wooden swords? Hopefully a url!!! Go to the FAIR message board. I can hardly believe what LDS apologists are saying these days. If you can't find the threads, ask around. I'm banned. Here is an anti-Mormon (James White) URL that I hadn't deleted yet. http://www.equip.org/free/DM755.htm Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America
I think that there is a difference between melting and working gold and the making of metal alloys such as steel. I think that is what is being objected to when they say they was no metal working. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:20 PM Subject: [ZION] Metallurgy in Ancient America http://www.geotimes.org/aug03/resources.html I found an article on mining and metallurgy in ancient America, mostly in NW South America. I have heard some object to the Book of Mormon on grounds that there has been no evidence of a metal working culture in American archaeology. Apparently I'm missing something. Isn't gold a metal? And didn't the Spanish conquistadors take mountains of gold back to the Old World even to the point of causing a great inflation? Undoubtedly I just don't understand the objection being made. To be honest, I haven't made a study of it, apologetics not being one of my strong interests. Question: Do we yet know where Lehi landed in the Americas, and where the earliest Lehite colonies were? Is it still generally thought that he landed on the coast of modern Chile, or was that ever a popular theory? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mayan Nephites?
There was a recent article in Meridian Magazine online that discussed the intereaction between some of the groups and the BofM people. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/030731fair.html for part one of the two part series. The homepage for Meridian has the second part of the article. Brandt Gardner is the author. Check this out and see if it has anything to do with your question. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 9:08 PM Subject: [ZION] Mayan Nephites? My family and I just returned from Salt Lake City where we saw the Church film at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building for the first time. I believe the film was called THE TESTAMENTS. Just one question: What were Mayan pyramids doing in the film? I thought the high civilization of the Maya was nearly a thousand years after the extinction of the Nephites? Am I wrong? If there were no Mayans at the time of the Nephites, isn't it a little dishonest to portray the ancient Nephite as Mayan? Anyway, it kind of bothered me. I liked the last film, the one about Joseph Smith, a lot better. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Faith as a working principle (was MARS)
Yes I imagine that you can dispute almost anything. This list is called Mormon Thinker yet the most common reaction to anyone's statement or idea is a simple recitation of someone else's quotation, so as to quash any suggestion that might be offered. That is not the hallmark of a thinker. You did not quite do that but if the list is true to form it will be coming from someone. I am surprised that there is not more reaction alone the line of; that is a new idea to me could you explain or what about this concept and how does it fit with your suggestion. Instead the common reaction is to give a short quote that, by inference, destroys the suggestion and makes discussion a offense that just cannot be tolerated on such a pure list. Nonsense. Or as I said the last time I was accused of being an apostate - that is a SILLY notion. This thread started with the idea that the definition of a miracle - to me - is an action that resulted in faith. The reaction? Not a simple discussion or question, but a dismissal with the idea that miracles ONLY follow faith. Where in the world did that idea come from, except as an acceptance of an incomplete thought as the final answer? Because someone who is a GA says one thing it does not make it the last word, or even the complete word. It is a thought that teaches a principle, but seldom teaches all there is to know or say of a principle. We are taught a little at a time, one principle upon another. To he/she that receives a little, more will be added until a full understanding is acheived. Section 93 talks about spheres of understanding where the principles may differ in understanding and application. Repentance follows faith. Does that mean that once we have repented it is no longer possible to have faith? Baptism follows faith. Does that mean that our faith becomes static and does not grow after we first join with the saints? As a matter of fact, everything follows faith. See the fourth article of faith that sets forth the FIRST, not the complete, principles of the gospel. Because faith precedes the miracle does that mean it can not also be affected by the experience and follow the miracle as well? Faith leads to actions of all sorts, which in turn leads to a greater faith (or a loss of faith depending upon the action) which leads to greater miracles which leads to greater faith, and so on, and so on. If miracles do not affect faith why have them at all? If the only ones that can receive are those with faith, and the only ones who truly understand miracles are those with faith then what is their purpose? Certainly not to confirm faith, or to testify of truth, for the truly faithful will not need such support. To suggest that there is a level of maturity that we can achieve is certainly true, but to suggest that we can achieve a full maturity of faith, when the standard is that of God, makes the idea kinda hard to accept. The very best that can be accomplished while in the flesh, in my opinion, is so much less than the ultimate standard, that it seems presumptuous to suggest that we can reach a maturity in the faith, compared with the ultimate standard, while burdened with the veil and in this life. Hence my sugestion that we are all immature in our faith. If you want to disagree - OK. Suggest a alternative or tell why you disagree. To simply say that you COULD disagree is meaningless. Tell us why and then we can have a discussion. Sorry about the tirade. George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:31 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars I might dispute that one can only have an immature faith in this life. A perfect one, no, but mature is definitely possible for some. Stacy. At 11:10 AM 07/31/2003 -0800, you wrote: George Cobabe wrote: If miracles do not aid in the further and ongoing development of an immature faith (and immature is the best that any of us can have in this life) then why do we use the term faith promoting experiences? Well, I personally don't use the term. But if I were to do so, I would use it to refer to spiritual experiences such as the famous burning in the bosom, and not miracles. --JWR /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
Re: [ZION] Mars
Well, it depends upon John being correct. George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars Fwiw, I asked John Pratt (Astronomer and ancient calender expert) about Mars' current brightness and its significance and here is his reply: Quote Mars will be bright but it is almost that bright every two years. That is, it is only slightly closer than usual when it is opposite from the sun. I don't think it is a sign of anything. Thanks, John /Quote So I guess that shoots my theory all to heck--doesn't it? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] . . . in the future the opposition from Satan will be both more subtle and more open. While in some ways it may be more blatant, it will be masked with greater sophistication and cunning. We will need greater spirituality to perceive all the forms of evil and greater strength to resist it. (President James E. Faust, CR, April 2003) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Miracles (was: Mars
And Chet - what was the effect of the miracles you cited on the faith you enjoy? I suspect that your faith was strengthed by the manifestations of Gods love and interest in your daughter. Mine is when I read or am involved in a manifestation of the power of God and His interest in me and mine. George - Original Message - From: Chet Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 6:36 AM Subject: [ZION] Miracles (was: Mars Continuing the line of discussion that George nicely began: Classic miracles, in my bumble opinion, are less impressive to the 21st century human. There was a hilarious re-telling of a 1960 comic story (the JLA origin, if anyone's interested) in which one of the main characters, a Martian, finds his cover blown. Instead of the 1959/1960 panic from the crowd, the 1990 version crowd wondered if Spielberg was making a movie. The miracles which impress me, even after 13 years in the Church, aren't the ones which can be reproduced with technology. It's when I see a human heart softened, a mind opened. If any of you knew how stubborn I was in opposition to organized religion (and there's some debate whether we behave as if we're organized) you'd think I had a personality transplant -- as many of my old friends DO think. These sort of things leave me more awestruck than, for example, seeing my daughter's twisted back straightened by 40+% (with no medical treatment) right after she received her endowments. (Mind you, I'm extremely grateful and impressed.) What miracles seem miraculous to you? *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
That is true only in a static situation. We live in a ongoing, live world where both happen all of the time. If you cannot see where faith is magnified by special happenings then you are missing a great deal. If you would like me to change my comments to say that I beleive a miracle is a happening that confirms faith, then OK. But in the confirmation it also strengths and increases faith. It is true that faith preceeds the miracle, but it also follows and is stronger because of it. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars George Cobabe wrote: Quite frankly I think that you finding it interesting is interesting to me. What do I mean? If this event has meaning to you then it is good. I believe that the best definition of a miracle is something that produces faith. Miracles do not produce faith. They occur because of faith. At least that is my understanding today. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
Whoops, I meant faith not miracles. George - Original Message - From: George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars That is true, although I was speaking of FAITH, not signs. If miracles do not aid in the further and ongoing development of an immature faith (and immature is the best that any of us can have in this life) then why do we use the term faith promoting experiences? George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mars At 11:36 PM 7/30/2003, you wrote: George Cobabe wrote: Quite frankly I think that you finding it interesting is interesting to me. What do I mean? If this event has meaning to you then it is good. I believe that the best definition of a miracle is something that produces faith. Miracles do not produce faith. They occur because of faith. At least that is my understanding today. --JWR Agreed. Signs follow those that believe. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mars
I have to admit, Steve, that this is thinking outside of the box. There have been so many other times that a harbinger of war would have been appropriate that I need to ask what were the signs at those times? If heavenly bodies are truly foretellers of events, or trends, as you suggest then where are the signs that lead up to this concluding and convincing event. It would seem that other smaller signs would have suggested other events in the past. It would seem very likely that we tend to think that now is the most important sign and therefore all would testify of the events coming up. I, myself, have often been victim of this kind of thinking. While the ancients may have looked to the heavens for direction and instruction, it is not likely that there are many in today's world that would find this significant, or even noteworthy - just because not many would even ask the questions that would lead to a meaningful conclusion. Therefore it would seem that the usefulness of the sign would be diminished. On the other hand I, like you, look to all things to testify of Christ and the happenings in our world. Therefore I do not dismiss your suggestions - just need more information and background for your suggestions. George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:10 AM Subject: [ZION] Mars By August 27th, the planet Mars will be at magnitude -2.9 (The lower the magnitude the brighter) and will be brighter than any star and the second brightest planet. Eclipsed in brightness only by the Sun, Moon and the planet Venus (when Venus can be seen). Since Mars can be seen at night while the planet Venus can only be seen at dawn or dusk it (Mars) is certainly the brightest object (except the Moon of course) in the nighttime sky. Furthermore, scientists say that Mars will be the brightest than its ever been in 60,000 years (which certainly means that it will shine the brightest since the fall of Adam and the Earth's temporal existence). In other words, never, since the Fall of Adam has the planet Mars shone with such brightness. Which brings up some interesting questions. Since the planets and the stars were created, not only to be of benefit to man for telling time (seasons, days and years) but also to stand as signs (Genesis 1: 14) as well (For instance, Christ is compared to the planet Venus--the bright and morning star and you'll recall the star which appeared at the birth of Christ), is there any significance to the fact that by the end of August Mars will be the brightest it has ever been in human history? Is it, in other words, a sign of the times? Here is my take on the matter (pure conjecture). The planet Mars is the Roman god of war. Mars is also red, symbolic of blood. Could the brightness of Mars could be symbolic or a harbinger of the wars that are to be poured out very shortly upon this earth? Or, could Mars be playing out a grand spectacular nighttime drama--symbolic of the struggle between Christ and Satan? In other words, Is Mars playing the role of the great usurper--challenging Christ (The Planet Venus) for supremacy. Mars rules the night (symbolic itself of Satan and his darkness) but never quite attains the brightness of the planet Venus. Is Mars symbolic of Satan when he appeared to Moses, appearing as an angel of light but because Satan's light was more or less that of darkness (Moses 1: 13-14) Moses was able to detect Satan as the deceiver and usurper that he was? These are just a few of the thoughts and questions that I've pondered the last few weeks. What do you think? Does the brightness of Mars (by the end of August) stand as a sign of the times? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recall the new star that announced the birth at Bethlehem? It was in its precise orbit long before it so shone. We are likewise placed in human orbits to illuminate. Divine correlation functions not only in the cosmos but on this planet, too. After all, the Book of Mormon plates were not buried in Belgium, only to have Joseph Smith born centuries later in distant Bombay. (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Conference Report, Saturday Morning, Oct 2002) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL
Re: [ZION] Mars
Quite frankly I think that you finding it interesting is interesting to me. What do I mean? If this event has meaning to you then it is good. I believe that the best definition of a miracle is something that produces faith. So it is with signs. they are important to the one that receives a witness and increased faith from what understanding they receive. That is why I dare not dismiss your question even though I think it not likely to have an impact on very many people. And of course I would not preach it in Sunday school. George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Mars At 07:14 PM 7/30/2003, you wrote: Steven Montgomery: Mars brightness by the end of August would certainly seem to me to qualify as a wonder in heaven. What would give this idea more significance and credibility is if August 27th happened to be a significant date in Jewish or Mormon history. ___ I don't know about Jewish history, but I happen to have a little ditty called _On This Day in the Church_, put together by a quartet of Y professors, which provides the following. snipped a list of seemingly unimportant or minor events in Church history Apparently your quartet of professors missed Section 63 of the Doctrine Covenants. In this revelation, given August 27th 1831, the Lord, through the Prophet Joseph Smith warns that a day of wrath shall come upon the wicked and then mentions, starting with verse 7 and ending with verse 12, something interesting: And he that seeketh signs shall see signs, but not unto salvation. Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning; But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe. Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God. Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation. Wherefore, I, the Lord, am not pleased with those among you who have sought after signs and wonders for faith, and not for the good of men unto my glory. Maybe its just coincidence or happenstance that Mars will shine brightest on the very date that Section 63 of the Doctrine Covenants was given to the world. But then again, maybe not. Its certainly out of my jurisdiction to proclaim that there is a connection--I just find it interesting. Very Interesting. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical learning.T. L. Simmons // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and ...
I understand you concerns Bill, for as you I have also sinned and stand still condemned in this world - until the atonement takes action in my life at least. In fact, however, there is an ordinance of confirming that you have attained this status. It used to be more common than now and is only known by those who have received it. After receiving it the person is not in some perfect state of sinlessness, but in the status of understanding that the atonement fully takes place in their life. It can, and does, take place in this life. Understanding your status before God is THE great mystery that we all want to seek and attain. We are promised that these mysteries will be given to the faithful. If you disagree that is OK, as I am not willing to debate or contend over this issue. But this is a true principle. George - Original Message - From: Bill Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and ... I don't think one will know for sure that their election has been made sure until one has died. As long as we live and breathe, we are sinning. A scripture that says something to the effect of: All has sinned and has come short of the glory of God is very true. It comes down to the thought that if you are sinning, how for heavens sake cane one have their calling made sure? You can't at least in this life time. Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't buy that completely as that could be the test of any age or era. Stacy. At 06:28 AM 07/17/2003 -0500, you wrote: At 07:16 AM 7/17/03 -0400, Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 01:55 PM 7/13/2003 -0500, St Stacy wrote: What would such a test consist of? Physical endurance? Brainwashing? Torture or something less diabolical such as integrity? What about martyrdom? Can we have any stories? I wonder if for many of us the test may not be being asked to endure torture or kill someone, but may be more like enduring to the end despite things such as chronic illness, handicap, poverty, loneliness, etc. . . . --Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / - Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Aaronic Temples vs. Melchizedek Temples
Steve with your permission I will send this post to the other list. OK??? George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Aaronic Temples vs. Melchizedek Temples Also at www.ldslastdays.com is this URL which lists various Prophetic references to the Sons of Levi and their sacrificial offering: http://www.ldslastdays.com/psclevi.htm For those without web access I'll list these various references below: BM, 3 NEPHI 24:2-3 But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. DC, 13:1 UPON you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. HC, J SMITH 5:326 At the close of the meeting...I remarked that the hundred and forty-four thousand sealed are the priests who should be anointed to administer in the daily sacrifice (in Jerusalem Temple). *** TPJS, J SMITH :171 ...the offering of sacrifice, which also shall be continued at the last time; for all the ordinances and duties that ever have been required by the Priesthood, under the directions and commandments of the Almighty in any of the dispensations, shall all be had in the last dispensation, therefore all things had under the authority of the Priesthood at any former period, shall be had again, bringing to pass the restoration spoken of by the mouth of all the Holy Prophets TPJS, J SMITH :171 Then shall the sons of Levi offer an acceptable offering to the Lord. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord. (See Malachi 3:3.) TPJS, J SMITH :171 ...it is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in future. The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. TPJS, J SMITH :173 These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchizedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the Holy Prophets be brought to pass? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The overall performance of the college graduates in the Convention of 1787 speaks forcefully for the proposition that Latin, rhetoric, philosophy, and mathematics can be a healthy fare for political heroes.Clinton Rossiter // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Aaronic Temples vs. Melchizedek Temples
Richard Cowan is a professor at BYU. He has been a Stake President and who knows what else. He is also Blind. He is one you can have some confidence in. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Aaronic Temples vs. Melchizedek Temples Steven Montgomery wrote: Call it serendipity if you will, but while researching an entirely different subject I came across an article (See URL below) written by Richard O. Cowan, entitled, The Great Temple of the New Jerusalem. While Cowan does not go into detail about the functions of the various temples involved, such as whether or not animal sacrifices will take place in certain temples, he does list the various temples and what groups will use them. Here is his list and then afterwards the URL: Who is Richard O. Cowan? Is he LDS or RLDS? Just curious. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] [MT] Aaronic and Melchizedek Temples
Yes John, that is the way I believe it as well. The other replies are only information to be shared. If it is or if ain't I expect we may all know in the not too distant future. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:39 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] [MT] Aaronic and Melchizedek Temples George Cobabe wrote: Some thoughts about the temple questions. I asked the question on another list I participate in and got the following. I don't know what other list you got your answers from, George. But it seems clear to me from the following that Joseph Fielding Smith did NOT misunderstand what Joseph Smith said about the restoration of animal sacrifice. --- Ehat Cook, Words of Joseph Smith, OM: 5 October 1840 (Monday Morning), p.43-p.44 It is a very prevalent opinion that in the sacrifices of sacrifices which were offered were entirely consumed, this was not the case if you read Leviticus [2] Chap [2-3] verses you will observe that the priests took a part as a memorial and offered it up before the Lord, while the remainder was kept for the benefit maintenance of the priests. 26 So that the offerings and sacrifices are not all consumed upon the Alter, but the blood is sprinkled and the fat and certain other portions are consumed These sacrifices as well as every ordinance belonging to the priesthood will when the temple of the Lord shall be built and the Sons Levi be purified be fully restored and attended to then all their powers ramifications ramifications and blessings-this the Sons of Levi shall be purified. ever was and will exist when the powers of the Melchisid Priesthood are sufficiently manifest. 27 Else how can the restitution of all things [p.44] spoken of by all the Holy Prophets be brought to pass be brought to pass 28 It is not to be understood that, the law of moses will be established again with all it rights and variety of ceremonies, ceremonies, this had never been spoken off by the prophets but those things which existed prior Mose's day viz Sacrifice will be continued 29-It may be asked by some what necessity for Sacrifice since the great Sacrifice was offered? In answer to which if Repentance Baptism and faith were necessary to Salvation existed prior to the days of Christ what necessity for them since that time 30- --- From this is clear to me that animal sacrifice will be restored in this dispensation as part of the restoration of all things. At least that is what Joseph Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith taught. - reply separator - From one: A couple points... I think this persons approach reflects a misunderstanding of a couple things. Although in his terminology, our temples may be Melchizedek, the first half of the temple ceremony is explicitly Aaronic. Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, George Q. Cannon, and Franklin D. Richards all indicated that, ideally, these would be separated (e.g. an Aaronic ceremony with teh Melchizedek several months later), but that it was fine the way it was. My point is that roughly half of what we do in the temple would be considered Aaronic, and would thus be in effect in OT temples. Second, following Matthew Brown (Gate of Heaven, 242-243), I'm not convinced that we will have animal sacrifice again. It seems to be a misunderstanding of what JS said and the scripture in Malachi 3:3, And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. The offering here, according to the Heb., is not an animal sacrifice, but one of the other offerings. We are the sons of Levi, offering that offering in the temple now- See DC 124:28 and 128:24. Beyond what he says, I find it interesting that in 124:39, a listing of things done in the temple, it lists memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi. I find it highly interesting that Levites offered some of these non-animal sacrifices in what was called the memorial portion (Lev. 2:2) which was a handful of the sacrifice. I connect that to what we find in Exo. 29, the process by which Aaron became a priest- v.4 in the temple, washed; 5-6 clothed in priestly clothing; 7- anointed; 9- more clothing; 10 KJV thou shalt consacrate them, but in Heb. it says fill their hands. (On this topic see Gate of Heaven 88-89, Nibley's Temple and Cosmos, 106, and the article The hand as a cup in ancient temple worship, available on-line.) Hope I'm still within bounds here... So, Solomon's temple was probably Aaronic for the most part, but that doesn't mean the prophets weren't doing other things in there as well. The distinction between Aaronic temples and Melchizedek temples isn't as distinct as the person below makes out... I think at least some of the early Christians had the complete temple ordinances but no building particular
Re: [ZION] Is Laughter a Sin?
Chet this is a good post, but I have another, additional, view of the striving for perfection. Section 93 says that truth is independent in the sphere in which it operates. Matthew says Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect It seems impossible to be perfect by the standard of the Fathers absolute perfection, at least in this life. However if we read Matthew to say: Be ye therefore perfect [in your earthly sphere of existence] even as your Father in Heaven is perfect [in His celestial existence], then it becomes possible to accomplish. The standards for each sphere of existence for perfection is different, but attainable for those in each sphere. Just a thought for your consideration. George - Original Message - From: Chet Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Is Laughter a Sin? Yup. Which is a lot of what the Gospel seems to be about, it seems to me. Which is (our self-improvement) secondary to our acceptance (not necessarily our understanding) of the Atonement. After all, perfecting the Saints is one of our goals (and that includes perfecting ourselves), along with redeeming the dead and proclaiming the Gospel. But even the mission of the Church comes after the acceptance of the Atonement itself. Sort of off-topic, it's awe-inspiring to me that the Church fixedly sets its (our) sights on goals which all Church leaders and most members agree are literally impossible. Not only do we have to have faith that the Savior will cause these goals to be ultimately reached, we have to have faith that we will never see the goals obtained in our lifetimes. *jeep! --Chet On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:31:11 -0500 Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In other words what you're saying is essential self-control and self-mastery. Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Is Laughter a Sin?
OK, but then so are road shows. George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Is Laughter a Sin? I don't feel the same way and I'm a former Baptist. I feel it's sensationalistic. Stacy. At 10:41 AM 07/15/2003 -0600, you wrote: And I for one just love Gospel music and am grateful that I can find some on the cable channels. The Baptist may have a lot wrong, but they have great music. George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Is Laughter a Sin? It's been a mystery to me for a long time, but being serious-minded myself I felt I didn't have to worry about it. This is, however, one of the reasons I won't listen to sing-songy Protestant hymns and deplore the choir from singing them. I also refuse to listen to Gladys Knight for the same reasons. I think there is too much emotionality in these songs that could contribute to levity. Stacy. At 09:46 AM 07/14/2003 -0800, you wrote: Yesterday in Priesthood Meeting we studied the sermons of John Taylor on the topic of keeping the Sabbath day holy. At one point in the lesson we came to these words: And when we do meet to worship God, I like to see us worship him with all our hearts. I think it altogether out of place on such occasions to hear people talk about secular things; these are times, above all others perhaps, when our feelings and affections should be drawn out towards God. In the course of our discussion of this particular teaching of President Taylor, I mentioned my puzzlement over a related issue. To my mind, one of the mysteries of Mormonism is the commandment found repeatedly in the Doctrine and Covenants and elsewhere that we avoid loud laughter and light mindedness. DC 59: 15. 15 And inasmuch as ye do these things with thanksgiving, with cheerful hearts and countenances, not with much laughter, for this is sin, but with a glad heart and a cheerful countenance- DC 88: 69. 69 Remember the great and last promise which I have made unto you; cast away your idle thoughts and your excess of laughter far from you. DC 88:121 121 Therefore, cease from all your light speeches, from all laughter, from all your lustful desires, from all your pride and light-mindedness, and from all your wicked doings. When I turn to the Topical Guide, and read the references cited under Levity I gain some insight from this: DC 43:34 34 Hearken ye to these words. Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. Treasure these things up in your hearts, and let the solemnities of eternity rest upon your minds. Even Joseph Smith seemed to think that levity was a sin: JS-H 1:28 28 But I was guilty of levity, and sometimes associated with jovial company, etc., not consistent with that character which ought to be maintained by one who was called of God as I had been. Further, I see these scriptural admonitions reflected in our church culture. Our hymns are thought unusually solemn by other churches. Mormons are frequently accused of taking themselves too seriously. And not a few have remarked that many Mormons don't seem to have much sense of humor. I grew up outside the Church largely among Jews in the Omaha Jewish community. I have long been impressed with how well developed a sense of humor the Jews have. Indeed, many of our best professional comedians are Jewish. And while living among American Indians at BYU I noticed that most Native Americans are almost as funny as Jews. But as a group, the Mormons are a deadly serious people. At least that is the way it seems to me. So is cracking jokes a sin? If not, then what do these scriptural passages mean? In DC 88:121 we are actually commanded to cease from all laughter. What is the reconciliation? Or must this remain a mystery to me? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 06/10/2003
Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and ...
I am sorry that your life is so terrible that you need to disagree. I have noticed that when the burden is great and is heavy to bear it is a result of sin and of ignoring the promise of the Savior: My burden is light. Challenges? Yes, but manageable and to be celebrated as opportunities to have our soul refined in preparation for the next life. Not a nightmare - a sweet life with challenges. At least in my limited experience. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and ... As far as this life being a nightmare? (as was suggested) - that does not seem like a loving Father at all. I think that this life is a wonderful experience and every challenge only adds to the fun. And the small challenges are only there to prepare us for the big one. I don't agree with you George. Life can be a nightmare. Father in Heaven is loving but he also very mean. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and ...
Well I did not go through Boot Camp, but rather OCS. But it was not a nightmare and certainly was not representative of life in general. It was challenging and not a lot of fun, but it was manageable. The point is that bad experiences are not the sum total of what life is or what life is about. Life generally is great experiences with family and friends. It is attending to church assignments. It is working with clients and solving problems. But it is not scary, it is not horrible and it is something I look forward to every day. I have kids that drive me crazy - that reject the church, but I also have more kids that are all that a father would want. It all balances out and I get out of life what I expect and what God wants me to have to experience all that I need to perfect myself through living the best I can and relying on the atonement of the Savior. Attitude, not Circumstances is one of the keys to a happy life. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Having One's Calling and Election Made Sure and ... George Cobabe favored us with: I am sorry that your life is so terrible that you need to disagree. I have noticed that when the burden is great and is heavy to bear it is a result of sin and of ignoring the promise of the Savior: My burden is light. Challenges? Yes, but manageable and to be celebrated as opportunities to have our soul refined in preparation for the next life. Not a nightmare - a sweet life with challenges. At least in my limited experience. Was Marine Corps boot camp a nightmare, George? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] hand shakes
Boy o Boy - talking about whether or not to shake hands for fear of illness and death makes a lot more sense than talking about doctrinal or news topics. What a lot of nonsense - I keep waiting for the punch line - but it seems to be getting more serious all of the time. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] hand shakes On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:05:31 -0600 Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At 08:14 AM 6/24/2003, you wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:17:00 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, I don't know, Paul. I'm pretty particular, I suppose, but I just don't worry about making hand contact with the temple workers. Especially when it pertains to performing ordinances, I just feel like the Lord will protect us. And actually, the Lord is in charge; He is the one who has said how the ordinances are to be performed. It is just my personal feeling that when we are in the temple, we are where we are supposed to be and everything will be alright. I just don't worry about it there. Naturally, I wash my hands as per my usual practice (like after using the restroom and before eating) but beyond that, I just don't worry about it in the temple. But that's me... Heidi the fair I understand your faith in this thing, Heidi. But-- I don't necessarily think the Lord will protect us just because we are doing work in the temple. We LDS people are always getting sick just as other people do. It seems the Lord doesn't stop this from happening but actually deems that we get sick-- you know-- those wonderful little trials that we get stuck with? I want to avoid those trials if I can. It isn't the temple workers hands that I am so concerned with but all the hands he has been shaking. Germs get carried that way. It's just not sanitary if you ask me. Something should be done about it. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Such paranoia didn't do Howard Hughes any good. I'm beginning to think that perhaps people should be exposed to as many germs as possible, starting with early childhood. That way the body can build up its immune system and develop resistance to as many germs and viruses as possible. For example, I exposed my children to chickenpox when they were young (and at the best age to handle such a disease, as opposed to when they are middle aged or older and have more severe complications) and they have never had any problems since. I remember reading an article in one scientific journal, which had what appeared to be some evidence for its thesis, that one of the reasons western culture and civilization developed and persevered was due to the fact that that particular stock of people had more immunity built up than other races or peoples. -- Steven Montgomery I'd live in a bubble if I could. To heck with the world. To heck with everything. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Goodbye
Stacy, I am not interested in joining a list that only discusses one topic, although it might be interesting. I am really interested in a group of committed LDS that can discuss and suggest and gently critique the thoughts of others. There are a lot of questions that I feel need to be discussed - more as a way of checking my own understanding as well as sharing my insights with others. Most lists that say they want to do this allow Anti-Mormons to get on and dominate with their horrible comments. Or allow one person with an extreme, or even a not so extreme but unyielding view, to dominate. Too often one person will not be willing to discuss anything of real meaning because He/She already has the answer. I would like to find a list that does not have that problem. B H Roberts said: In essentials, let us have unity. In non-essentials, let us have liberty. In all things, let us have charity. (If not an exact quote it is close.) That would be a nice standard for any list. George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Goodbye George, I guess I'm still here. I thought I had unsubscribed, but maybe I got sidetracked. There's been so much going on in my life I don't always check to see what lists I'm on anymore. What kinds of things do you wish to discuss? Eternal progression? Exaltation? What will happen to each one of us? I'm not sure I know the answer to the last question as my entire life hasn't come up for review yet. I know I'll have some regrets about the way I've handled my last working situation and I'm afraid I'm going to be in hot water over that one, since I can't right every wrong I committed in that situation. That's my one big regret and I honestly worry I'm going to lose out on that one. Stacy. At 07:29 PM 06/14/2003 -0600, you wrote: I had great hopes of finding a list where I could discuss gospel topics with true believers and not have the anti -Mormon baiters always jumping in with their obnoxious comments. It would be nice if the fellow participants would be willing to discuss without being judgmental if we happen to disagree a bit. I am still looking and would be interested if one of those 10 might fit the criteria. Otherwise I will likely just give up and go back to my study and figure it all out by myself. George - Original Message - From: Bill Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Goodbye When you consider why people leave certain lists, I find you must consider the other lists (if any) a person may review. Although, I consider myself a lurker, I'm a member of about 10 other mormon related lists, and I like this one the best. When you consider what is being said on some of the yahoo groups, like thinker, polygomy, libertarian, etc; this is the most tame one that I have come across. Scott McGee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steven asked: Why leave the list because of the few? I completely understand Gary's reasons for leaving. Once upon a time, this list was place where we met together with friends and discussed the gospel and all kinds of other things. It was a great source pleasure and an opportunity to meet many new friends too. Now, however, the list has changed to be more of a debating society. It is a place where people come to debate and contend with each other about gospel related (usually) subjects. Like Gary, I have thought of leaving the list. The major reason I have not is that there continue to be a number of good friends (like Gary, also JWR, ELF, Grandpa Bill, and many others) who post occasional notes. I enjoy this association with them, even though it is often hidden among the other posts. I would probably have already left the list if volume weren't so much lower than I can afford to wade through the rubbish looking for my friends. The list, as a whole, brings me no more of the joy it once did. I just loath losing touch with my friends. Oh, one more point. I used to read each and every post to the list. Even when there were were hundreds a day! When you start skipping threads and such, however, you start to lose interest in most of the day to day chatter that makes up the list. THat is the biggest problem with those who say if you don't like this discussion, just delete it! Once you start that, the list becomes just a list of email messages, not a community to you. That is what has happened to me, and why, one day, I will likely leave too. Scott -- I'd rather be riding! - Scott McGee ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) web site: http://themcgees.org/scott/ /// / // /// ZION LIST
Re: [ZION] Goodbye
I had great hopes of finding a list where I could discuss gospel topics with true believers and not have the anti -Mormon baiters always jumping in with their obnoxious comments. It would be nice if the fellow participants would be willing to discuss without being judgmental if we happen to disagree a bit. I am still looking and would be interested if one of those 10 might fit the criteria. Otherwise I will likely just give up and go back to my study and figure it all out by myself. George - Original Message - From: Bill Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Goodbye When you consider why people leave certain lists, I find you must consider the other lists (if any) a person may review. Although, I consider myself a lurker, I'm a member of about 10 other mormon related lists, and I like this one the best. When you consider what is being said on some of the yahoo groups, like thinker, polygomy, libertarian, etc; this is the most tame one that I have come across. Scott McGee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steven asked: Why leave the list because of the few? I completely understand Gary's reasons for leaving. Once upon a time, this list was place where we met together with friends and discussed the gospel and all kinds of other things. It was a great source pleasure and an opportunity to meet many new friends too. Now, however, the list has changed to be more of a debating society. It is a place where people come to debate and contend with each other about gospel related (usually) subjects. Like Gary, I have thought of leaving the list. The major reason I have not is that there continue to be a number of good friends (like Gary, also JWR, ELF, Grandpa Bill, and many others) who post occasional notes. I enjoy this association with them, even though it is often hidden among the other posts. I would probably have already left the list if volume weren't so much lower than I can afford to wade through the rubbish looking for my friends. The list, as a whole, brings me no more of the joy it once did. I just loath losing touch with my friends. Oh, one more point. I used to read each and every post to the list. Even when there were were hundreds a day! When you start skipping threads and such, however, you start to lose interest in most of the day to day chatter that makes up the list. THat is the biggest problem with those who say if you don't like this discussion, just delete it! Once you start that, the list becomes just a list of email messages, not a community to you. That is what has happened to me, and why, one day, I will likely leave too. Scott -- I'd rather be riding! - Scott McGee ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) web site: http://themcgees.org/scott/ // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / - Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] God's love
Gary, I accept Elder Maxwells comments with all my heart, as that is the way I have always beloved. However how does this reconcile with Elder Nelsons article in the Ensign where he appears to say something very different? George - Original Message - From: Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 7:20 PM Subject: [ZION] God's love Some on the list have mentioned in the past that God does not love sinners, and tried to use recent statements on unconditional love to prove their point. I'd like to quote Elder Neal Maxwell, perhaps the current scriptural scholar among the apostles, and definitely the most eloquent and prolific writer amongst them. In his book These things shall give thee experience, he states the following concerning God's perfect love: God loves us all-- saint and sinner alike -- with a perfect and everlasting love. We have His love, if not His approval. It is our love for Him that remains to be developed. IOW, God loves all, but His approval is dependent upon our obedience and faithfulness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
OK - I think you are taking a wise stance. George - Original Message - From: Scott McGee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses George, I don't necessarily see it that way, but I certainly consider that as one of the likely possibilities. I also see saving the US as a possibility, and would like to hope that is what happens. My own personal guess would tend to be more like what you suggest or perhaps saving some small portion of the US as a constitutionally run entity while the majority of the US lapses into something less desirable and less livable. Scott On Wed, 28 May 2003 10:31:19 -0600, George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I think that you will find that the elders of the church are not prophesied to save the constitution, but rather the principles of the constitution. I suggest that means that after the United States has gone down in flames the only people that will still be free with the constitutional principles intact will be the people of Zion. You might want to read or review Lunds book - The Coming of the Lord. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? But prophesy also says that the Elders will be killed so there will be a 7 to 1 ratio of the righteous, women to men. What's a mother (or father for that matter) to do? Jon - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses At 08:19 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the Church have to save the constitution? Scott . . . if it can be saved at all. -- Scott McGee [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
I think that you will find that the elders of the church are not prophesied to save the constitution, but rather the principles of the constitution. I suggest that means that after the United States has gone down in flames the only people that will still be free with the constitutional principles intact will be the people of Zion. You might want to read or review Lunds book - The Coming of the Lord. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? But prophesy also says that the Elders will be killed so there will be a 7 to 1 ratio of the righteous, women to men. What's a mother (or father for that matter) to do? Jon - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses At 08:19 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: It makes me wonder, can it really be long before the Elders of the Church have to save the constitution? Scott . . . if it can be saved at all. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] . . . today the Christian Constitutionalist weeps as he walks about his country. He sees the spiritual and political faith of his fathers betrayed, by wolves in sheep's garments. He sees the forces of evil increasing in strength and momentum under the leadership of Satan, the archenemy of freedom. ---Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1967. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
Steven - even in Knowlton's quote it does not say the nation would be saved, only that the constitution will be borne away from destruction. This may very well be separate from the entity known as the United States. It is unlikely, for example, that the city of Zion in the Mississippi valley will be established without some prior upheaval in the nation - simply based on the eventual size of the city. I have not heard from you on our other topic for some time - are we through with that? George - Original Message - From: Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses At 09:32 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? Jon There are different versions and remembrances of Joseph Smith's statement (Given on July 19th 1840). Orson Hyde, in recalling Joseph Smith's words, put it this way: I believe he said something like this--that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of overthrow; and said he: 'If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.' I believe this is about the language, an nearly as I can recollect it. (See JD 6: 152) If Hyde's version is correct then this makes the prophecy conditional. However, to be fair, President Ezra Taft Benson liked the version recorded by Martha Jane Knowleton, which is more explicit that the Constitution will be saved. Knowleton's version is this: Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground; and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean; and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction. I say, how can the Constitution be saved by the Elders of Israel when many of them don't even know its basic precepts? For instance, how many Elders know the reason the Founders setup the Electoral College the way they did? Or the reason that originally, before the 17th amendment, that Senators were elected by State legislatures? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical learning.T. L. Simmons // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] I'm all shook up.
I have also been hit by lightning as well. It is rather spectacular when in the cockpit of a 2 man aircraft at 30,000 feet. It makes quite a show. However all it does is make a group of pin sized holes in the fuselage - really no big deal. Except, of course, for the initial scare. George - Original Message - From: Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:53 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] I'm all shook up. George Cobabe: ... go back to sleep it is just an earthquake. ___ I hope Cousin Bill is ok, but I couldn't resist a story with George's comment. Flying one time and responsible for a few passengers in addition to my military duties, our aircraft was hit by lightning. One young airman lost his cool. I did all I could to reassure him that everything would be just fine (it was), but to no avail. Finally I said, Haven't you even been hit by lightning before? I'll never forget the panic-stricken look on his face. He did everything I told him to do and didn't say another word the entire flight. And I suspect he always looked to see if I was on the flight before he ever got on an airplane again. My earthquake story isn't nearly as exciting, sorry. Larry Jackson The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Moral War
. Nice to strive for, but impossible both individually and collectively. I certainly do not claim that the United States citizenry is perfect. But I do not share your pessimism regarding their current state of wickedness. (or is it optimism regarding the closeness of the Second Coming) At any rate I firmly believe that the majority of Americans are good, honest, morally upright people. I also, with you, believe that, as a group, we are more wicked than we have ever been and are headed in the wrong direction. Of course, with this assessment comes the acknowledgment of the opposite group of people that are more righteous than ever and are headed in the right direction, but they are fewer than the other wicked group. There is no doubt that we are headed to a fulfillment of prophecy, and that includes war, chaos, and all sorts of unpleasant situations (esp. for the wicked) The problem is that there is not a person on this earth that can give an absolutely clear projection of the future, can certainly not give an accurate time table. Therefore, until we get that direction, we must seek for the best that we can do in today's world with our current understanding. As I understand the process Zion will be separated from the rest of the world because the rest of the world will be unable to tolerate the light, etc that will emanate from the various places of Zion. We are a long way from that situation right now. If you like I will, in my next post, give a precise list of elements that I consider part of the definition, but they will simply be a listing and clarification of the points I have made above. George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden, Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is conditional. It seems to me that Love from our Father and our Savior is unconditional and as part of that they want us to receive as much as we can, but no more blessing than we can handle. The blessing may be conditional, but surely not the love. If Elder Nelson said any different than that I would be disappointed, but I will read the article. George - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 9:32 AM Subject: [ZION] Conditional divine love Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*. [emphasis in original] With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; DC 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21] Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Moral War
action in the event of war. We are a people of Peace, both as Church members and as citizens of Nations. I believe this is especially true of the United States, but also of other nations most of the time. You can point out all sorts of actions that might seem to go against the argument, but I think that MOST actions by the US fit into the above criteria. Would anyone disagree with this definition of Moral War? Or would anyone add to this list of requirements? Now if you want the flames to fly - apply this to a real situation and we will see how difficult it is to fight a moral war and apply each of these rules to the conflict. George George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden, Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Moral War
John, I am willing to answer, and defend, but first answer the question that we have been discussing. Are we in general agreement as to what constitutes a Moral War? If so then we can apply the test and come up with a satisfactory conclusion. If not, then why bother? as discussion will not be possible! George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Moral War George Cobabe favored us with: The question was asked by one, is it not possible for both sides to fight a moral war? No, it is not!!! We must only fight after we have done all we can to prevent a war. If both sides are trying to do this, war will not occur. Moral action by both parties will always result in peace. For war to occur one or both must be acting immorally. What do you think, George? Is the coming war with Iraq a fight between one moral party ad one immoral party? Or is it a fight between two immoral parties? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] can't be a sealer
I worked as a baptizer in the Ogden Temple - figured it was the only way I could serve and still stay awake. Never boring - get bored and you drown. I finally had to quit - couldn't stay quiet that long. After a while you get tired of old men telling you to be quiet. But it was great for the time I was there. Maybe do it again sometime, but not soon. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] can't be a sealer And do you realize how boring it is to be a sealer? Saying all those words, over and over again, and trying to pronounce those ferin names and all. Now, working in Initiatories - THAT is a true privilege! Jon - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 12:50 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] can't be a sealer -Paul- No one got back on the subject of why a man can't be a sealer in the temple if he has been divorced even by no fault of his own. I don't know why. I don't think it matters. Being a sealer is not a right, and in the strict sense is not even a privilege. It is a calling, just like being a gospel doctrine teacher or a bishop or an apostle. We don't control our callings. We merely accept them as they come. If the Lord's Church has a policy not to call divorced men as sealers, what of it? A man needn't be a sealer to gain eternal life. He needn't even hold any certain Priesthood office, so long as he holds the Priesthood itself. Whether we work as a sealer in the temple, or as the prophet to head the Church, or as one who opens a dispensation, is as irrelevant to our salvation and exaltation as whether we were asked to be the second grade hall monitor during the first week of the year when we were seven. If we seek after God and do as we're asked, we will inherit the unimaginable -- all that the Father hath. I'm just glad we have temple sealers. I'm also glad we have brain surgeons, but I don't particularly want to be one. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
The term eternal progression does not occur in either scripture nor early church literature. What does that tell us? Is it a term like *free* agency when *moral* agency is the correct term? George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 10:25 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law No, it means you've been humbled, which is spiritual progression... Jon Spencer wrote: Well, then, if I am on an eternal progression, how come my current house is smaller than my previous home (although the lack of a current mortgage is a nice by-product!). And does this mean that I've been PO'ed? :-) Jon Paul Osborne wrote: Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression? Are we being lied to? Jon No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each passing eternity and that is great progress. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. - Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Geez, I have lost track of who is arguing what and why? The original point was that as God created/organized the world He also created/organized the law that governed it. To criticize me for using a word that you object to, when I capitulated and used your word (organize) instead of the scriptural term, does not make sense, nor does it promote careful discussion. Why push the point? Listen to the message given rather than the words used. I know that words are important, but the message is even more so. But if it is fun for you to worry about which word you insist is crucial - go for it. George - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 9:33 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law -George- When God created this universe -Jon- He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized. Big difference! -Stephen- The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did, indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is what create means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter creates a song. George is right in his usage. -Jon- Sorry, but your stating a specific definition does not make it so. Nor does your so stating. So let's use a neutral, reliable third party's definition. How do the scriptures use the term create? How do the prophets use it? What does the dictionary say? (American or Canadian, your choice.) The prophets and the scriptures tell me something different than they tell you. Impossible. One of us must not be hearing correctly. And since the scriptures clearly state the God created the heavens and the earth, in this case I don't think I'm the one with the earwax buildup... Q-Tips, anyone? Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Race discussion
It does not look like you need to do any more work now. What I would work on is your own name. Something is just not right about your signature. Couz George - Original Message - From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 9:59 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Race discussion I could probably work on spelling Lamanites correctly. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jon, there is no difference. In our theology creation means to organize. At least that is what I meant. :-) However, He was still the one that organized the Law for this universe. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law George the Babe wrote: When God created this universe, and this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the same as what His Father created or they may be different. The bottom line is that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live. He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized. Big difference! Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
geez Paul - and I was beginning to have such confidence in your doctrinal judgment. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 Amen! John, you and I see this thing eye to eye and agree. Isn't it great? ;-) Paul O On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 23:27:04 -0900 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] God cannot sin. If he did, he would cease to be God. He cannot create something out of nothing. He cannot annihilate something in the sense of causing it to altogether cease to exist in any form. He cannot force a man to heaven. He cannot cause mercy to rob justice. In short, he cannot violate any of the laws by which he is governed, which are the laws by which he became God, and the laws that we must keep if we would become Gods. Are all of these false-by-definition? Maybe so. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and therefore not the supreme entity. That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is a higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the Romans who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. George Cobabe wrote: Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become more like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the smallest point of law and behavior. Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with them, so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. George - Original Message - From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law Another interesting reference to this question-- God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and all law emanate from him (see DC 88:13). Indeed, all kingdoms have a law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions (DC 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever (DC 88:41). Joseph Smith asked, Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out that it was proper to have laws for His government? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). God, Joseph Smith taught, has made certain decrees which are fixed and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than prophets would hold the keys of salvation. True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Paul, I think you have misunderstood what the prophets have been doing for we are commanded to: (Doctrine and Covenants 20:17-20.) 17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; 18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; 19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship. You will notice that it says that God (the Father) is the only being that we should worship. A few years ago there was quite a program in books and other literature that promoted, in the Church, making Christ the center of our lives. It was quietly discouraged and the material were withdrawn by the authors. Because God the Father is in fact the only authorized object of our worship. We can love, respect,hold in high esteem and appreciation the Son, our redeemer, but we worship only the Father. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Worship Christ Marc We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
I do not see the connection between my quote and your comments. My earlier, not copied comments, suggested that we needed to worship the highest entity or concept we could come up with. It was a rhetorical question attempting to point out the fallacy of believing that there was anything more powerful than God, even law. George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law George Cobabe wrote: You are absolutely right. However we are to worship God as the supreme entity. How can we do that if He is subject to a higher force, and therefore not the supreme entity. A principle is not an entity. Let's revisit what Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: This is an age when faith and the power of God should be greatly increased, but to the contrary it is diminished and men boast in their own strength; yet we see every day of our lives, the greatest of miracles. The flying of the airplane, the voice on the radio, the picture on the screen and television. There are thousands of miracles performed today, wonders that would astound our grandfathers could they suddenly see them. These miracles are as great as turning water into wine, raising the dead or anything else. A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now, is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing of the sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because we do not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. Man today has learned of many laws that our grandfathers did not understand. It is small business for the critics to condemn the miracles in scriptures as though all the laws of God have been revealed, and there could be no powers which they do not understand. (M:HOD) That is my point. That there is no higher entity, not even law. I don't know what you mean concerning the Romans, but to say that there is a higher power, even law, than God is an inconsistency in the doctrine of those that believe such a thing. IMNSHO George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the Romans who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. George Cobabe wrote: Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become more like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the smallest point of law and behavior. Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with them, so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. George - Original Message - From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law Another interesting reference to this question-- God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and all law emanate from him (see DC 88:13). Indeed, all kingdoms have a law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions (DC 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever (DC 88:41). Joseph Smith asked, Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of nothing to govern
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
I appreciate the offer, however I would be interested in your take on the scripture and what it means. I confess your quotes regarding worshiping Christ are troubling with regard to his verse. How do you reconcile the two? George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Worship Christ George, You're welcome to take up your differences with President Hinkley if you like. As for me and my house, we will worship Christ. Paul O On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:49:27 -0700 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul, I think you have misunderstood what the prophets have been doing for we are commanded to: (Doctrine and Covenants 20:17-20.) 17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; 18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; 19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship. You will notice that it says that God (the Father) is the only being that we should worship. A few years ago there was quite a program in books and other literature that promoted, in the Church, making Christ the center of our lives. It was quietly discouraged and the material were withdrawn by the authors. Because God the Father is in fact the only authorized object of our worship. We can love, respect,hold in high esteem and appreciation the Son, our redeemer, but we worship only the Father. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Worship Christ Marc We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Redelfs' Commentary: God became God by obedience to pre-existing, coeternal law. And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path that he took. The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is a Protestant idea. It is not the gospel. I do not believe that anyone is suggesting that God make up the law by which He became God. That is, of course, nonsense, His Father created the laws by which our Father lived his mortal life. When God created this universe, and this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the same as what His Father created or they may be different. The bottom line is that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live. My earlier, rather lengthy, post suggested several reasons, in the quotes provided, why many people agree with the idea that our God is uniquely responsible for the laws by which we must operate. What did you think of their arguments? George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:18 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law Jim Cobabe favored us with: He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42) Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, OMNIPOTENT GOD; OMNIPRESENCE OF GOD; OMNISCIENCE OF GOD However, the Church does not understand this term in the traditional sense of absoluteness, and, on the authority of modern revelation, rejects the classical doctrine of creation out of nothing. It affirms, rather, that there are actualities that are coeternal with the persons of the Godhead, INCLUDING ELEMENTS, INTELLIGENCE, AND LAW (DC 93:29, 33, 35: 88:34-40). Omnipotence, therefore, cannot coherently be understood as absolutely unlimited power. That view is internally self-contradictory and, given the fact that evil and suffering are real, not reconcilable with God's omnibenevolence or loving kindness (see Theodicy). DC 93:29 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. Bibliography: Roberts, B. H. The Doctrine of Deity. Seventy's Course in Theology, third year. Salt Lake City, 1910. --- Redelfs' Commentary: God became God by obedience to pre-existing, coeternal law. And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path that he took. The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is a Protestant idea. It is not the gospel. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
Opps, I meant to say: Those who argue there is a Law *above* our God need ... George - Original Message - From: George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:38 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become more like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the smallest point of law and behavior. Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with them, so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. George - Original Message - From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law Another interesting reference to this question-- God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and all law emanate from him (see DC 88:13). Indeed, all kingdoms have a law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions (DC 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever (DC 88:41). Joseph Smith asked, Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out that it was proper to have laws for His government? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). God, Joseph Smith taught, has made certain decrees which are fixed and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than prophets would hold the keys of salvation. True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the Nephites, I am the law (3 Ne. 15:9). (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
