Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 9:35 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ >> I have a thought experiment of my own and this is the >> ​ ​ >> protocol: >> >>> 1) I have *TWO* coins, a regular coin and a two headed coin. >> >>> 2) I flip both coins. >> 3) Predict if *the one and only

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 29 Sep 2017, at 19:51, Terren Suydam wrote: ​Then why can't anybody *ever* tell me if that ​ one stream of consciousness​ is in Moscow or Washington?​ Congratulations, you just discovered the first-person indeterminacy. I'll get the champagne. If you drink champagne each time John

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 29 Sep 2017, at 20:23, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​There's one stream of consciousness.​ ​And you correctly realized that nobody can *ever* tell you if that one stream of consciousness is in Moscow or in

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 29 Sep 2017, at 20:02, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​​>> ​Then why can't anybody *ever* tell me if that ​ one stream of consciousness​ is in Moscow or Washington?​ ​> ​Congratulations, you just discovered the

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 02 Oct 2017, at 02:19, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>​ That is why you don't listen to the copies. They are elves in Santa Clause's shop ​As I said the copies have nothing to do will it. The elves in Santa Clause's shop

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 02 Oct 2017, at 00:45, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​just ask him to describe from a 1st pov what happens... like this:​ I'm in helsinki, I'm in front of a button, I close my eyes, I push on the button, and I open my

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 at 3:48 pm, John Clark wrote: I have a thought experiment of my own and this is the protocol: > > 1) I have *TWO* coins, a regular coin and a two headed coin. > 2) I flip both coins. > 3) Predict if *the one and only coin* will land heads or tails. > >

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>​ > That is why you don't listen to the copies. They are elves in Santa > Clause's shop ​As I said the copies have nothing to do will it. The elves in Santa Clause's shop have just as much to do with this as the copies

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > just ask him to describe from a 1st pov what happens... like this: > ​ I > 'm in helsinki, I'm in front of a button, I close my eyes, I push on the > button, and I open my eyes, and I am ... ​I have a better idea.

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 30 Sep 2017, at 22:48, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 5:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​I predict the one and only one thing I will see tomorrow after I become two is Santa Clause's workshop. ​> ​Of course, this is a joke. I hope. I was ​dead serious​.

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 30 Sep 2017, at 19:03, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 7:08 AM, David Nyman wrote: ​> ​Actually there have been some quite interesting discussions outside the JC echo chamber, I think, Quentin. I don't bother with the troll, ​So you believe

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 30 Sep 2017, at 11:49, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2017-09-30 11:40 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal : On 29 Sep 2017, at 19:39, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:48 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​This thought experiment must be analyzed from

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 5:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​I predict the one and only one thing I will see tomorrow after I become >> two is Santa Clause's workshop. > > > ​> ​ > Of course, this is a joke. I hope. > I was ​dead serious​ . After I have been duplicated and become

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 30 Sep 2017 6:03 p.m., "John Clark" wrote: On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 7:08 AM, David Nyman wrote: ​> ​ > Actually there have been some quite interesting discussions outside the JC > echo chamber, I think, Quentin. I don't bother with the troll, >

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: ​> ​ > As I see it, this list died 10 years ago ​And yet you didn't leave the list 10 years ago, you must enjoy hanging out with cadavers, must be getting a bit pungent by now. ​ ​ John K Clark ​ -- You received

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 7:08 AM, David Nyman wrote: ​> ​ > Actually there have been some quite interesting discussions outside the JC > echo chamber, I think, Quentin. I don't bother with the troll, > ​So you believe Quentin's ideas are so brilliant that nobody could

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 at 11:07 am, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> There could be an infinite number of copies but each one of them will >> have THE first person perspective. >> > > ​ > True.

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ > There could be an infinite number of copies but each one of them will have > THE first person perspective. > ​ True. And for that very reason asking "What one and only one city will *I* see tomorrow from

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 30 Sep 2017 10:49 a.m., "Quentin Anciaux" wrote: 2017-09-30 11:40 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal : > > On 29 Sep 2017, at 19:39, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:48 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> This thought

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 30 Sep 2017, at 11:40, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Sep 2017, at 19:39, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:48 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​This thought experiment must be analyzed from the first person perspective ​There is no THE ​first person

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

2017-09-30 11:40 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal : > > On 29 Sep 2017, at 19:39, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:48 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> This thought experiment must be analyzed from the first person perspective >> > > ​There

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 29 Sep 2017, at 19:39, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:48 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​This thought experiment must be analyzed from the first person perspective ​There is no THE ​first person perspective​ if ​first person perspective​

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 29 Sep 2017, at 20:39, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 7:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​​>> ​Congratulation on saying ​​"​a first person viewpoint​" not "the first person viewpoint​"! ​ I think the word "expect" is unnecessary but in general I have no

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 at 7:39 pm, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:48 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> This thought experiment must be analyzed from the first person perspective >> > > ​There is no *THE* ​ > first person

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 7:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​ >> ​>> ​ >> Congratulation on saying ​ >> ​"​ >> a first person viewpoint >> ​" not "the >> first person viewpoint >> ​"! >> ​ I think the word "expect" is unnecessary but in general I >> have no problem with that

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

Oh, don't be so humble. You did good today. On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:23 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> There's one stream of consciousness. >> ​ ​ >> And you correctly realized that

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > There's one stream of consciousness. > ​ ​ > And you correctly realized that nobody can *ever* tell you if that one > stream of consciousness is in Moscow or in Washington. > ​I would go even further than

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

No, dude, you finally got it. There's one stream of consciousness. And you correctly realized that nobody can *ever* tell you if that one stream of consciousness is in Moscow or in Washington. It took some prodding to get you to see that, but I'd like to think it was worth the effort. Don't thank

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​ >> ​>> ​ >> Then why can't anybody *ever* tell me if that ​ >> one stream of consciousness >> ​ is in Moscow or Washington?​ >> > > ​> ​ > Congratulations, you just discovered the first-person indeterminacy. I'll >

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

2017-09-29 19:51 GMT+02:00 Terren Suydam : > ​Then why can't anybody *ever* tell me if that ​ >> one stream of consciousness >> ​ is in Moscow or Washington?​ >> > > Congratulations, you just discovered the first-person indeterminacy. I'll > get the champagne. > Don't

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

> > ​Then why can't anybody *ever* tell me if that ​ > one stream of consciousness > ​ is in Moscow or Washington?​ > Congratulations, you just discovered the first-person indeterminacy. I'll get the champagne. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

2017-09-29 19:43 GMT+02:00 John Clark : > On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:30 AM, Quentin Anciaux > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> maybe half peepee half bad faith... > > > > ​Hey ​ > Quentin > ​ I just had a great idea, go fuck yourself. > Yeah I'm aware of the peepee

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:30 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: ​> ​ > maybe half peepee half bad faith... ​Hey ​ Quentin ​ I just had a great idea, go fuck yourself. Sincerely John K Clark ​ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:48 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > This thought experiment must be analyzed from the first person perspective > ​There is no *THE* ​ first person perspective ​ if ​ first person perspective ​ duplicating machines exist! It's the same

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 27 Sep 2017, at 21:07, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​The non-ambiguous question is how many cities can any "Helsinky-candidate" believing in computationalism, expect to see from a first person viewpoint just after

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

2017-09-29 1:33 GMT+02:00 John Clark : > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > The question is “what city will I see tomorrow”. >> > > ​I know, and​ > > ​it's gibberish because if tomorrow "I" doesn't mean a person who >

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 4:04 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​>> ​ >>> ​Then which *ONE* out of that infinite number is ​ >>> ​"*THE"* >>> stream of consciousness >>> >> > > ​> ​ >> ​?​ >>

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 at 8:02 pm, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > ​> ​ >>> ​I do expect to survive the >>> copying process >>> ​, even better I expect I'll have a backup, although why my expectations

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​>> ​ >> ​Then which *ONE* out of that infinite number is ​ >> ​"*THE"* >> stream of consciousness >> > ​> ​ > ​?​ > You're asking that question from the objective, third-person point of > view, which is not

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

> > > ​Then which *ONE* out of that infinite number is ​ > ​"*THE"* > stream of consciousness > ​?​ > You're asking that question from the objective, third-person point of view, which is not relevant to the thought experiment. If you want to engage with the thought experiment, then you must

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​> ​ > The non-ambiguous question is how many cities can any "Helsinky-candidate" > believing in computationalism, expect to see from a first person viewpoint > just after pushing the button. The answer is the non

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​>> ​ >> ​If there is more than one then it would be very foolish to ask "what one >> and only one thing will *you* see after *you* become two?". >> > ​> ​ > I'm not asking that. > ​Then what are you asking?? ​>>

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 8:46 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ >> ​I do expect to survive the >> copying process >> ​, even better I expect I'll have a backup, although why my expectations >> should be of interest to anyone but me I don't know. ​ >> > > Then the question

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:35 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:36 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​ >>> ​>> ​ >>> The expectations of what will happen will change from person to person, >>> but the reality of what actually did

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 26 Sep 2017, at 21:04, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​In this situation, does the copy that opens his eyes in Barcelona only see Barcelona? ​Obviously.​ ​> ​And the copy that opens his eyes in Paris only see

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 26 Sep 2017, at 16:58, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​It is the specific city that I will feel be in that I cannot predict. ​Because when talking about the future AFTER going through a "I" duplicating ​ ​machine

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 26 Sep 2017, at 22:17, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: you must not neglect the question asked ​What question? I saw words and question marks but I saw no question.​ The question is always the same. Just read the posts

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 26 Sep 2017, at 23:13, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>​>​ ​nobody can feel to be in two places at once with computationalism ​​> ​That is not a sacred axiom of computationalism! ​> ​It is simple consequence. ​Show me

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 27 Sep 2017, at 01:35, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:36 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​​>> ​The expectations of what will happen will change from person to person, but the reality of what actually did happen will not. ​> ​The reality of what

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 27 Sep 2017, at 01:47, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:33 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​It seems that you would want your assets distributed to the copies, ideally both of them, if not both then one, randomly chosen (“it doesn’t matter which

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 27 Sep 2017, at 02:46, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 at 1:48 am, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:33 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​It seems that you would want your assets distributed to the copies,

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 at 1:48 am, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:33 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> It seems that you would want your assets distributed to the copies, >> ideally both of them, if not both then one, randomly

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:33 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ > It seems that you would want your assets distributed to the copies, > ideally both of them, if not both then one, randomly chosen (“it doesn’t > matter which one”). ​Yes. I want somebody tomorrow who

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:36 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​ >> ​>> ​ >> The expectations of what will happen will change from person to person, >> but the reality of what actually did happen will not. >> > > ​> ​ > The reality of what actually does happen is not available to

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 at 4:44 pm, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:48 AM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > > ​> ​ >> Asking about your expectations is an attempt to show what your implicit >> beliefs about your future are. >> > > OK, If you

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 4:30 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> So the expectation of anyone who enters a duplicator would be > > > ​The expectations of what will happen will change from

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

I am less worried about conscious machines, but instead focus on intuitive machinery, that grabs science knowledge from wide apart fields and builds new inventions from these. Think more on the lines of, a rocket ship with a life-support interior that protects and feeds the travelers inside.

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​> >> ​>​ >> ​ >> nobody can feel to be in two places at once with computationalism >> > ​ > ​> ​ > That is not a sacred axiom of computationalism! > > ​> ​ > It is simple consequence. > ​Show me how! Explain to me why

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > So the expectation of anyone who enters a duplicator would be ​The expectations of what will happen will change from person to person, but the reality of what actually did happen will not. > ​> t​ > o open

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: you must not neglect the question asked ​What question? I saw words and question marks but I saw no question.​ ​> ​ > which concerns the first person experience expected. ​Which THE the first person experience is

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 3:04 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> In this situation, does the copy that opens his eyes in Barcelona only >> see Barcelona? >> > > ​Obviously.​ > > > >> ​> ​

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > In this situation, does the copy that opens his eyes in Barcelona only see > Barcelona? > ​Obviously.​ > ​> ​ > And the copy that opens his eyes in Paris only see Paris? > ​Obviously. And equally obvious

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:14 AM, John Clark wrote: > ​> ​ >> But before we continue, I need to be sure we agree that from your >> first-person perspective, when it comes to making decisions based on some >> future state, you only have the contents of your mind to work

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 25 September 2017 at 22:34, Terren Suydam wrote: > > > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 1:51 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Terren Suydam >> wrote: >> >> ​> ​ >>> Then we agree that expectations are

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at spudboy100 via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: ​> ​ > You folks want Profundity-If this is fact, it is, Profundity itself. A > Japanese team came up with a super-duper quantum computing architecture, > that looks to be able to eat the Protein

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​> ​ > It is the specific city that I will feel be in that I cannot predict. > ​Because when talking about the future AFTER going through a *"I" *duplicating ​ ​machine the personal pronoun* "I​" *becomes ambiguous.

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 26 Sep 2017, at 07:30, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: You folks want Profundity-If this is fact, it is, Profundity itself. A Japanese team came up with a super-duper quantum computing architecture, that looks to be able to eat the Protein Folding Problem, with pepper and salt.

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 7:48 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ​> ​ > Asking about your expectations is an attempt to show what your implicit > beliefs about your future are. > OK, If you say "What one and only one city do you expect to ​see​ ​ after you walk into the ​ ​ that

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 5:34 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​ >> ​>> ​ >> Forget important, expectations are not even meaningful in thought >> experiments involving people duplicating machines if >> ​ ​ >> it is not clearly stated what is being expected. >> > > ​> ​ > You're

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 25 Sep 2017, at 21:37, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​The only​ ​identity criteria​ ​I remember agreeing to is​ "​the Moscow man" means the man who saw Moscow​.​ ​> ​You have agreed that the Moscow Man (like the

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 25 Sep 2017, at 19:51, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​Then we agree that expectations are important, since the wrong ones can kill us. ​Forget important, expectations are not even meaningful in thought

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 at 7:51 pm, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> Then we agree that expectations are important, since the wrong ones can >> kill us. >> > > ​ > Forget important, expectations

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

You folks want Profundity-If this is fact, it is, Profundity itself. A Japanese team came up with a super-duper quantum computing architecture, that looks to be able to eat the Protein Folding Problem, with pepper and salt. I don't feel this news is too good to be true. Needs much work,

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 1:51 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> Then we agree that expectations are important, since the wrong ones can >> kill us. >> > > ​ > Forget important, expectations

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​ >> The only >> ​ ​ >> identity criteria >> ​ ​ >> I remember agreeing to is >> ​ "​ >> the Moscow man" means the man who saw Moscow >> ​.​ >> > > ​> ​ > You have agreed that the Moscow Man (like the Washington Man)

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > Then we agree that expectations are important, since the wrong ones can > kill us. > ​ Forget important, expectations are not even meaningful in thought experiments involving people duplicating machines if ​ ​

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 1:54 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 6:20 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​>> ​ >>> ​My expectation is after I enter the duplicator >>> ​is ​ >>> I will be in Santa Claus's workshop >>> >> >> ​> ​ >> On what

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 24 Sep 2017, at 20:02, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​We agreed that "the Moscow man" means the man who saw Moscow, but yesterday nobody saw ​Moscow. ​> ​That contradicts the identity criteria on which we have

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​>> ​ >> We agreed that "the Moscow man" means the man who saw Moscow, but >> yesterday nobody saw ​Moscow. > > > ​> ​ > That contradicts the identity criteria on which we have agreed. > ​ What ​ ​ agreed ​ ​ on ​ ​

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 22 Sep 2017, at 22:37, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>​>>​​Yesterday the Moscow man we can see today, was the Helsinki man. ​>> ​​No. We agreed that "the Moscow man" means the man who saw Moscow, but yesterday nobody saw

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​> >>> ​>>​ >>> ​Yesterday the Moscow man we can see today, was the Helsinki man. >> >> >> ​>> ​ >> ​No. We agreed that "the Moscow man" means the man who saw Moscow, but >> yesterday nobody saw ​Moscow. > > ​> ​ > We

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 21 Sep 2017, at 21:04, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>​Yesterday the Moscow man we can see today, was the Helsinki man. ​No. We agreed that "the Moscow man" means the man who saw Moscow, but yesterday nobody saw

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>​ > Yesterday the Moscow man we can see today, was the Helsinki man. > ​No. We agreed that "the Moscow man" means the man who saw Moscow, but yesterday nobody saw ​Moscow. So yesterday I would have said "I predict that

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 19 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 4:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​before their ​specific experiences there were not two copies, neither the Washington man nor the Moscow man existed, only the Helsinki man existed. You can't make a

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 4:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​>> ​ >> before their ​specific experiences there were not two copies, neither >> the Washington man nor the Moscow man existed, only the Helsinki man >> existed. You can't make a prediction, or do anything else, *IF YOU

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 19 Sep 2017, at 04:21, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 7:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​Both copies saw only one city, ​Yes.​ ​>​and both were unable to predict in advance which one they would feel to see. ​Unable to predict in advance​ who would see

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 7:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​> ​ > Both copies saw only one city, > ​Yes.​ > ​>​ > and both were unable to predict in advance which one they would feel to > see. > ​Unable to predict in advance ​ who would see what? ​Today I can predict what

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 18 Sep 2017, at 01:30, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I hope you are fine. ​Thank you Bruno, I'm OK.​ Good. ​> ​Mr. His was sure that his first person experience will be of being in one city, then he pushed on the

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I hope you are fine. > ​Thank you Bruno, I'm OK.​ > ​> ​ > Mr. His was sure that his first person experience will be of being in one > city, then he pushed on the button, and both the copies claim, "yes that > prediction

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 9:54 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at Terren Suydam wrote: > > ​> ​ >> Hope you and yours came through the storm ok. >> > > ​Thanks, we're OK, the storm weakened to 90 mph from 180 when it hit us, > that was

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > Hope you and yours came through the storm ok. > ​Thanks, we're OK, the storm weakened to 90 mph from 180 when it hit us, that was bad but 90 only produces 1/8th of the force 180 mph would have.​ ​> ​ > Since the

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 3:00 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > No, you said: >> >> True, it's not gibberish. The question is clear, it's about what I expect >>> not what will turn out to be true.

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 08 Sep 2017, at 21:15, John Clark wrote: I wrote the following a few days ago but didn't send it because I intended to say more, but other things came up that seemed more important so this will just have to do. I hope you are fine. On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 4:56 AM, Bruno Marchal

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

*I wrote the following a few days ago but didn't send it because I intended to say more, but other things came up that seemed more important so this will just have to do.* On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 4:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> ​ > when in still in Helsinki, can be sure that

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: No, you said: > > True, it's not gibberish. The question is clear, it's about what I expect >> not what will turn out to be true. I might expect to wake up in ​Santa >> Claus's workshop > > If I expected to be in Santa

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

No, you said: True, it's not gibberish. The question is clear, it's about what I expect > not what will turn out to be true. I might expect to wake up in ​Santa > Claus's workshop but I might be wrong, my expectations have been proven to > be wrong before. On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 8:32 AM, John

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

2017-09-07 14:32 GMT+02:00 John Clark : > > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 3:23 PM, Terren Suydam > wrote: > > ​> ​ >> You admitted earlier that the question is not gibberish when you don't >> know you're being duplicated elsewhere. >> > > ​I admitted

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 3:23 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: ​> ​ > You admitted earlier that the question is not gibberish when you don't > know you're being duplicated elsewhere. > ​I admitted nothing of the sort! The question is always 100% pure gibberish but I did not know

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

On 06 Sep 2017, at 18:38, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 4:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​It contradicts nothing. We're not talking about the H-person, you're complaining that neither the Moscow Man nor the Washington Man could​ ​have made a prediction,

Re: A profound lack of profundity (and soon "the starting point")

You admitted earlier that the question is not gibberish when you don't know you're being duplicated elsewhere. Therefore, you must agree that the question is not gibberish from the first-person perspective, even if you think it's gibberish from the third-person perspective. On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at

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