Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net wrote: Yes, perhaps it might be nice if the key to get the eraser was the same in inkscape and gimp and blender and gedit and krita and mypaint, but it [...] I overlooked Krita. Krita uses Backspace as a BG Color Fill and Alt+Backspace as a FG Color Fill according to: http://community.kde.org/Krita/Shortcuts MyPaint doesn't seem to have a 'fill' accelerator: http://wiki.mypaint.info/Documentation/Shortcuts So it looks to me like Krita and PhotoShop agree that Alt+Backspace is FG Color Fill; Krita and Paint.NET agree that Backspace is BG Color Fill (with PhotoShop the outlier using Ctrl); and GIMP thinks that Backspace is good for nothing. Chris ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
On Sun, 2011-01-30 at 13:59 -0500, Christopher Curtis wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net wrote: Yes, perhaps it might be nice if the key to get the eraser was the same in inkscape and gimp and blender and gedit and krita and mypaint, but it could no longer be E because that inserts text in gedit, so we'd end up using conrtol-shift-e or something. But that's already Export in gimp now, and what if it does something in Blender? I don't know if you're intentionally setting up a stawman here, but inkscape is a vector editor, blender is a 3D modeler, and gedit is a text editor. These applications aren't in the same domain as GIMP and MyPaint. Actually no, I'm being entirely serious - they are often used together, just as Photoshop and Illustrator are used together. (and gedit, like GIMP and Inkscape, is a GNOME program, hosted on www.gnome.org) So all I'm suggesting is that instead of simply producing PhotoShop keybindings (which is a fine idea, IMO) that an interested person actually look at the broader picture to see if there is any accelerator convergence among peer applications and propose bringing GIMP into alignment where it makes sense to do so. I'm actually Ok with this. But we have to agree what we mean by peer applications - I'd say gimp and inkscape are, for example, and not gimp and photoshop. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
On 1/30/11, Christopher Curtis wrote: So all I'm suggesting is that instead of simply producing PhotoShop keybindings (which is a fine idea, IMO) They already are produced that an interested person actually look at the broader picture to see if there is any accelerator convergence among peer applications and propose bringing GIMP into alignment where it makes sense to do so. You can start from here: http://create.freedesktop.org/wiki/User_interaction_implementations Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
Hi! Lately I've been discussing with a collegue of mine some differences between Gimp and Photoshop and how long-time Ps user feel when seated in front of Gimp. I know… I know… the neverending subject, but I'm not trying to start the flame again, so… please keep your matches and petrol away ;) — I'm geuinely interested what you think. The thing is, that we concluded that permamenet transition or even occasional use of Gimp would be much more appealing for Ps-bred guys (like me ;)) if one would have possibility to use the same (or at least much similar) keyboard shortcuts. I know—there are a couple of ready “configs” to be placed in Gimp's config dirs, but that's the part of the problem. There's significant number of people among graphic designers for whom navigating somewhere in directory structure to change this or that file would be too much to ask. I'm saying that NOT to laugh at them—they're skilled and tallented designers I'm sure, but let's face the fact. So, how about a small extension to GUI to let one choose one of predefined shortcut sets and including “Photoshop compatible” shortcuts to the source tree? I know many people would be much pleased with that, since a seasoned Ps user tend to rather “just poke the right key” to do his bidding that to wander through the menu. I'm not trying to prove one shortcut scheme better than the other. Now seriously… what do you think? Regards! thebodzio signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
On 1/30/11, Bogdan Szczurek wrote: Lately I've been discussing with a collegue of mine some differences between Gimp and Photoshop and how long-time Ps user feel when seated in front of Gimp. I know… I know… the neverending subject, but I'm not trying to start the flame again, Do you genuinely expect us to believe it? :))) So, how about a small extension to GUI to let one choose one of predefined shortcut sets and including “Photoshop compatible” shortcuts to the source tree? I know many people would be much pleased with that, since a seasoned Ps user tend to rather “just poke the right key” to do his bidding that to wander through the menu. I'm not trying to prove one shortcut scheme better than the other. Now seriously… what do you think? Being the utter bastard who updated the Photoshop mocking keyboard scheme file a while ago to match CS4 shortcuts I can only say that I'm terribly sorry about having done it. Here is my reasoning. Shortcuts are integral part of the whole thing that shapes habits of users, especially the motor function. If you keep a bug chunk of interaction from one application and replace one of its integral parts with a bit from a different application with different approach to user interfaces, you get a monster of a very nearly tentacular nature. By adding the scheme switch you advertize this monster (well, a halfhearted measure at best). As we use to say in Uberwald, if you don't want a monster, you don't pull a lever :) P.S. So, should I go ahead and update it again to match CS5? :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
On Sun, 2011-01-30 at 01:43 +0100, Bogdan Szczurek wrote: The thing is, that we concluded that permamenet transition or even occasional use of Gimp would be much more appealing for Ps-bred guys (like me ;)) if one would have possibility to use the same (or at least much similar) keyboard shortcuts. There's some danger here -- as people in Germany found when they compared moving to KDE or Gnome from Windows: when the new system is too similar to the old, people start going into automatic mode, and trip up much more over the differences. When I first started using the evolution gnome mail program, I couldn't at first figure out why I kept sending out unedited drafts... then I realised it was because it was enough like Sun's mailtool I'd used a decade earlier that without thinking, I was pressing the command to go to the start/top of my message, to re-read before sending, but in evolution that same keypress meant send immediately without asking for confirmation! I'd used a non-gui mailer for about 10 years in the meantime, and had totally forgotten. So, how about a small extension to GUI to let one choose one of predefined shortcut sets and including “Photoshop compatible” shortcuts to the source tree? I know many people would be much pleased with that, since a seasoned Ps user tend to rather “just poke the right key” to do his bidding that to wander through the menu. I'm not trying to prove one shortcut scheme better than the other. Getting people started using gimp can be a good thing, although this can also make it harder for them to progress beyond the intersection of PhotoShop and GIMP. One also has to be aware that Adobe has in the past filed (successfully) law suits against competitors who were copying PhotoShop user interface features -- the key bindings are part of Adobe's intellectual property, they would probably argue. Given those things, I'd prefer to provide a really good Libre Graphics for Photoshop Users that talks also about when to use GIMP and when to use Inkscape, ImageMagick, darktable (if you can figure the damn thing out). The default image in krita is one good example of how to give useful information, even though I'd still prefer a blank image. So, how about Help-Getting Started ? I'll help write it, if there's agreement that it could be included. I dare say that Adobe-style keybindings could be included too, since the GIMP project isn't very rich (and therefore Adobe would be unlikely to recoup their legal costs if they went after us) -- if there are objections, we could just remove the bindings. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh on irc.gnome.org; sometime blog http://www.barefootliam.org/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Photoshop “compatibility” mode
Hi! Lately I've been discussing with a collegue of mine some differences between Gimp and Photoshop and how long-time Ps user feel when seated in front of Gimp. I know… I know… the neverending subject, but I'm not trying to start the flame again, Do you genuinely expect us to believe it? :))) Since it being the truth… yup :) (but I'm glad it made you smile :)) So, how about a small extension to GUI to let one choose one of predefined shortcut sets and including “Photoshop compatible” shortcuts to the source tree? I know many people would be much pleased with that, since a seasoned Ps user tend to rather “just poke the right key” to do his bidding that to wander through the menu. I'm not trying to prove one shortcut scheme better than the other. Now seriously… what do you think? Being the utter bastard who updated the Photoshop mocking keyboard scheme file a while ago to match CS4 shortcuts I can only say that I'm terribly sorry about having done it. A wicked doing indeed… ;) Anyway, I'm not trying to discuss if such scheme should be made (it is and will be done regardles of one's views) but if it is a good thing to have such a scheme budled with standard GIMP release. Here is my reasoning. Shortcuts are integral part of the whole thing that shapes habits of users, especially the motor function. If you keep a bug chunk of interaction from one application and replace one of its integral parts with a bit from a different application with different approach to user interfaces, you get a monster of a very nearly tentacular nature. By adding the scheme switch you advertize this monster (well, a halfhearted measure at best). As we use to say in Uberwald, if you don't want a monster, you don't pull a lever :) I see possibiliy of choosing right away between different predefined shortcut sets as an extension of the idea of user defined accelerators. In the end if one allows users to create their own shortcuts then one's giving them the aformentioned lever anyhow. The only difference is how convenient it is in use ;). The thing that I can't agree upon is what it releases ;). P.S. So, should I go ahead and update it again to match CS5? :) I'd love to have it! :) Best regards! thebodzio signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
Von: Stephen Greenwalt stephengreenw...@gmail.com * It seems to work best to put the entire project (all source, and all build product) under a project folder in the Home directory. * If possible, that should include a *copy *of any external dependencies with environment variables (etc) adjusted accordingly * The project ought to be able to exist in a *bubble* . . . so as to avoid confusion . . . regarding copies of dependencies that might exist in the OS. * Multiple different project versions ought to be able to exist on the same machine without stepping over each other. Martin has covered that in http://www.chromecode.com/2009/12/best-way-to-keep-up-with-gimp-from-git_26.html That's rather easy to follow, shouldn't take more take more than an hour*, even when running into each problem that's commonly encountered on a default Ubuntu install (i.e. no compilers, no developer files, ...) deliberately. *assuming a broadband connection and something around a 2GHz system, otherwise add some buffer for download and compile times * If we do it right, compiling for Linux vs. Windows vs. OSx ought require no more than the flip of a switch. If you've got a build environment set up, it builds with the exact same commands. * Shouldn't we standardize on a common development IDE (like Eclipse)? Shouldn't be necessary - if you make sure that the IDE doesn't interfere with the autotools build setup and/or introduces its own project files, then you may choose any IDE you like. Regards, Michael -- GMX DSL Doppel-Flat ab 19,99 Euro/mtl.! Jetzt mit gratis Handy-Flat! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On 1/28/11, Kevin Cozens wrote: Eric Grivel wrote: Which is where my thought of a boot camp came in. What if there was a group of potential new developers all struggling with the same learning curve? Wouldn't it be great if an experienced Gimp developer could lead the whole group through a series of exercises, designed to gain experience and understanding of the Gimp and Gegl internals. The new people getting an education on GIMP from some sort of boot camp or QA with the developers should write down the information they learn in a public document. Exactly. Write down the question, write down the answers. When the mass of 'write-downs reaches a particular point, all the notes can be transformed into docs for beginners. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On 01/27/2011 03:56 PM, Stephen Greenwalt wrote: Boot Camp . . . good idea. Docs . . . good idea. Let the newbie's like me (coming out of boot camp) write some of the Docs. Presently I have everything compiled and running under Ubuntu, and I am just reviewing the code to get some sort of context. It is huge. Incredible, actually. Who wrote all of this? Wow. A few comments: * It seems to work best to put the entire project (all source, and all build product) under a project folder in the Home directory. For me, not at all. I put the gimp trunk, the babl trunk, and the gegl trunk under /usr/local and they install into /usr/local/lib, /usr/local/include, and /usr/local/bin. Since I have /usr/local/bin in my path first they're found first. I have my ld.so.conf.d contain a file that puts /usr/local/lib into the ld.so configuration. * If possible, that should include a copy of any external dependencies . . . with environment variables (etc) adjusted accordingly * The project ought to be able to exist in a "bubble" . . . so as to avoid confusion . . . regarding copies of dependencies that might exist in the OS. For me that bubble, is /usr/local * Multiple different project versions ought to be able to exist on the same machine without stepping over each other. I just use the trunk. Note: I wrote a minimal bash script that duplicates (automates) the steps I took to get to the present state. Maybe we could expand on that idea. I just pull the sources down from git, configure and make babl, configure and make gegl, configure and make gimp. All easy and automatic. No script needed. * If we do it right, compiling for Linux vs. Windows vs. OSx ought require no more than the flip of a switch. The Blender folks, and others, are moving in that direction. * Shouldn't we standardize on a common development IDE (like Eclipse)? If I am missing something in that area . . . let me know. I, and a lot of other geeks like me don't use IDEs. Patrick ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
I'd like to write a little bit on some of the topics. *QA* * * As a beginner developer, I'd like to know the place where answers to all my stupid questions are answered. In one place. E.g.: - How to commit to git tree? - What's the best way to submit a patch? When I asked this question on this list, I got several different answers - post to mailing list, add new bug and post a patch, do both, commit to git tree. Of course some of responders wrote that previous responders are wrong and it should be done in other way and they do it so... and so on. - How to download and compile the source without mixing it with normal Gimp installation? - Who is planning Gimp's development? - How do I know what should be done in Gimp? - What are planned deadlines for next edititons of Gimp? Are there any? - an many many many other. I think that for a start a Wiki with QA edited by everyone could be a good solution. If it gets too complicated, it can be split in sections, pages, categories and so on. *Scripts* I think that a good idea is also to include in such Wiki scripts for automated downloading sources and dependencies, updating git tree etc. Maybe not one official script, but several alternatives - each of you writing about his own script says that it does something different than others'. I imagine that such a page with scripts could look similar to a Wiki page with scripts to compile your own PHP source on Dreamhost: http://wiki.dreamhost.com/Installing_PHP5. There is one Main PHP 5 install script http://wiki.dreamhost.com/Installing_PHP5#Main_PHP_5_install_script - just for a newbie, but also several alternative scripts. *IDE* * * Beginner developers that aren't independent and need some support from more experienced developers probably aren't at all used to working on an open source projects, reading through thousands of lines of new code, hundreds of files and directories. Therefore all their experience is working on some projects in Eclipse or other IDEs. I'm one a such person :) And although I tried to use kate, gedit and vim to edit code, it would be much easier for me to setup and use an Eclipse project. If some of you use IDEs, couldn't you just write on the Wiki how to setup a project in a few easy steps? Some of you will write about Eclipse, some about Qt Creator, maybe NetBeans and other. * * *Tutor / supervisor* (an experienced developer) It's a good idea to choose one or two developers responsible for the whole Newbie Developers Boot Camp. Of course the work on QA, submitting scripts, guides for IDEs and maybe some other tips should be done by many developers, but someone should supervise it and make sure that these guides are really helpful for people. From time to time I can see emails Hey, I'd like to help you, but don't know where to start. Some people will get this knowledge on their own (or will try to get it from IRC channels), but some won't and aren't brave enough to spam all developers on a Gimp list with his/her newbie questions. Łukasz Czerwiński ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On Fri, 2011-01-28 at 08:39 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote: Hmm I don't understand your reasoning. So you rather waste time manually refactoring Java code than using Eclipse' excellent integrated reafactoring features? Yes, though your evaluation of excellent could be argued as subjective. From my perspective, it's a better waste of time than wondering though the plethora of useless features of most IDEs. The best Unix developer I ever met (Ken Witte, Dell Computer) bounced around code 10 times faster than I've ever seen anyone with an IDE. Any tool will do if you know how to use it. It's what you do with it that's important. That's what I mean by don't get bogged down by the tools. -- Michael J. HammelPrincipal Software Engineer mjham...@graphics-muse.org http://graphics-muse.org -- Pessimism: Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On 28 January 2011 17:58, Michael J. Hammel mjham...@graphics-muse.org wrote: On Fri, 2011-01-28 at 08:39 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote: Hmm I don't understand your reasoning. So you rather waste time manually refactoring Java code than using Eclipse' excellent integrated reafactoring features? Yes, though your evaluation of excellent could be argued as subjective. From my perspective, it's a better waste of time than wondering though the plethora of useless features of most IDEs. The best Unix developer I ever met (Ken Witte, Dell Computer) bounced around code 10 times faster than I've ever seen anyone with an IDE. Any tool will do if you know how to use it. It's what you do with it that's important. That's what I mean by don't get bogged down by the tools. You mean he could compile and edit different with the press of a single button instead of going to console typing make, shifting editors around etc? I use IDE's too and I find them extremely helpful. Using an IDE where everything is accesible from a single program does not seem counterproductive to me. Now if people like to do it the hard way, it's up to them, but trying to force your way to others, because you think it makes you...I don't know, a better programmer(which obviously isn't the case, this guy you mention would FLY if he used an IDE)?It makes me think of an elitist attitude that frankly, is not compatible with me. 'If you can't do it the hard way you're not good enough to be bothered with'. Don't forget that most people do development in their free time and having to learn all these tools just to do something they are already good at(coding) is very annoying. That -is- getting bogged down by the tools. Having people telling them that they are not good enough if they can't do it, is even more annoying. Personally I'm still struggling with git right now and it would be great if I didn't have to surf around for information/tutorials. I have spent a couple of hours trying out things that could have been spent coding. Not everyone has this kind of patience I'm afraid..Take Blender for example. In their development pages they have extremely clear, newbie-oriented instructions on how to download the repository, compile on a platform-by-platform basis etc. Noone there said to people that the best programmers around know how to use svn and and we are not going to bother with you. It's marketing I'm afraid(because I don't like marketing): make it easy for people to come and they'll come. Lucasz, +1 for everything you've written! ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
I'd just settle for good step by step instruction on getting a windows cross compile working. I've had no problem getting from git and compiling for Ububtu in a Ubuntu VM, but whenever I ask how to set up the tools for windows cross-compile I get hand-waving and oh just redefine your compiler environment variables but have never had luck. A few people have posted that they'll put up steps, but Ive not seen anything, yet :( (Still hoping though) -Rob A ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
2011/1/28 Łukasz Czerwiński lc277...@students.mimuw.edu.pl: I'd like to write a little bit on some of the topics. QA I think that for a start a Wiki with QA edited by everyone could be a good solution. If it gets too complicated, it can be split in sections, pages, categories and so on. Such a wiki has been started. Its hosted by me at http://gimp-wiki.who.ee and has been devised as unformal developer space. What it lacks is contributors. Joining easy. A request to me with desired wiki name and email and that's it. If you want to maintain the developer FAQ, please step up. IDE The wiki pointed out above already contains a howto for netbeans. Netbeans is the only ide Ive gotten to actually code-complete for me and allows me to navigate project in the manner I like. And before netbeans Ive used pretty much anything:P Tutor / supervisor (an experienced developer) It's a good idea to choose one or two developers responsible for the whole Newbie Developers Boot Camp. We currently have exactly 2 active developers, me and mitch. And we do try to help out noobs as much as we can at #gimp. This is where the noob bootcamp happened at least for me. And when I joined #gimp for the first time with a bug on my mind my experience with C was very much limited. It has taken over 4 years to get into the codebase and develop a clue and I still have a long way to go. From time to time I can see emails Hey, I'd like to help you, but don't know where to start. Some people will get this knowledge on their own (or will try to get it from IRC channels), but some won't and aren't brave enough to spam all developers on a Gimp list with his/her newbie questions. People who do this Hi, im bored, give me something to hack usually lack the commitment it takes to get into a large code base like GIMP. People who stick around and evolve into developers come to us with an issue or a plan. something they want to fix. And then they read the code and slowly get good enough. Thats the only way I know, that works. Have an idea what you want to change and then do it by asking questions. We like sensible questions. In fact, not asking questions is IMHO a good reason to flunk a student at GSoC mid-term :P If you want answers, join IRC. And stay connected long enough to answer. the last guy who did that(IRC name Acumen) had so bad connection that in the 10 minutes it took for me to see the question his link had already dropped and I had nobody to answer. -- --Alexia PS. Sorry for spam Łukasz, to was meant for the list. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On Friday, January 28, 2011, 19:08:43, Rob Antonishen wrote: I'd just settle for good step by step instruction on getting a windows cross compile working. I posted the instructions to the list some time ago: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.gimp.devel/19202/focus=19203 -- Jernej Simončič http://eternallybored.org/ Never play Poker with a player named Doc or Ace. -- Stein's Law of Cards ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On 01/28/11 11:22, Patrick Horgan wrote: * Shouldn't we standardize on a common development IDE (like Eclipse)? If I am missing something in that area . . . let me know. I think the only thing you're missing is that there is no need for we to standardise. If you want to use an IDE that does not really affect how others work. I did manage to import gimp as a project into kdevelop at one stage, though later I could repeat the excersize and since I was then less active in coding gimp I did not spend time trying to fix it. /gg/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
Hi, why don't put those instractions on the site? Can be a good start point. Massimo Il 28/01/2011 19.20, Jernej Simončič ha scritto: On Friday, January 28, 2011, 19:08:43, Rob Antonishen wrote: I'd just settle for good step by step instruction on getting a windows cross compile working. I posted the instructions to the list some time ago: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.gimp.devel/19202/focus=19203 ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dropping Scheme with gimp 2.8?
saulgo...@flashingtwelve.brickfilms.com wrote: I'd like to apologize to the list. I had responded to Kevin off-list because most of my questions were specific to the upstream TinyScheme project and had only peripheral impact to Script-fu development. That's partly my fault. The references to Script-Fu made me unsure whether the e-mail was only about TinyScheme or was also about Script-Fu. By the time I went to reply, I had already removed the part of your message saying you were mailing me off-list. With the way the list is configured, if I see [Gimp-developer] in the subject line I automatically send the reply to the list. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
?ukasz Czerwin'ski wrote: Maybe just a good documentation for GIMP source is needed? Once I tried to patch TinyScheme interpreter to make it work faster. In files I was working on was almost no comments. TinyScheme is another project with little to no documentation. I would be interested to hear about your work on TinyScheme and what documentation would have helped you. Feel free to e-mail me privately or send a message to the tinyscheme-issues mailing list (on SourceForge). Just remove [Gimp-developer] from the subject line. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
I am getting the impression that the Gimp project is trapped in a chicken-and-egg problem with regard to attracting new contributors, where the few core developers are too busy maintaining the product to spend a lot of time helping new developers come on board. Gimp is an extremely large and complex system. I am a fairly experienced coder myself, and have recently submitted patches for two open bugs. But those were easy ones, not really related to any Gimp structures but basic C bug fixing. I have looked at some of the other outstanding bugs and for most don't have a clue where to start, or how to make sure that my fix fits in the vision, or that it doesn't break something else. At this point, knowing how busy the core Gimp developers are, and recognizing that it will take more time for them to walk me through a problem and a solution than it would take them to just fix the issue themselves, I am hesitant to ask for a lot of help. On the other hand, the idea of just delving in and figuring it out myself is quite daunting. Which is where my thought of a boot camp came in. What if there was a group of potential new developers all struggling with the same learning curve? Wouldn't it be great if an experienced Gimp developer could lead the whole group through a series of exercises, designed to gain experience and understanding of the Gimp and Gegl internals. This would require some serious commitment of time by one or more of the Gimp developers, and would mean other work wouldn't get done. The potential payoff however in the form of bringing one or more additional Gimp developers up to speed could be significant. Eric ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Eric Grivel g...@lumenssolutions.com wrote: I am getting the impression that the Gimp project is trapped in a chicken-and-egg problem with regard to attracting new contributors, where the few core developers are too busy maintaining the product to spend a lot of time helping new developers come on board. Gimp is an extremely large and complex system. I am a fairly experienced coder myself, and have recently submitted patches for two open bugs. But ... At this point, knowing how busy the core Gimp developers are, and recognizing that it will take more time for them to walk me through a problem and a solution than it would take them to just fix the issue themselves, I am hesitant to ask for a lot of help. On the other hand, the idea of just delving in and figuring it out myself is quite daunting. Which is where my thought of a boot camp came in. What if there was a group of potential new developers all struggling with the same learning ... This would require some serious commitment of time by one or more of the Gimp developers, and would mean other work wouldn't get done. The potential payoff however in the form of bringing one or more additional Gimp developers up to speed could be significant. I find myself in the same situation. I popped up in late December with an interest in getting GEGL more fully integrated into GIMP (I'd like to see 8+ bpc support), and Øyvind gave me some pointers and partial code for what he wants to happen next (so I'm one of the time sinks he referred to a couple of days ago). I'm still working to figure out the seemingly recursive concepts. Thanks, Pete ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On 01/27/2011 04:43 PM, Eric Grivel wrote: I am getting the impression that the Gimp project is trapped in a chicken-and-egg problem with regard to attracting new contributors, where the few core developers are too busy maintaining the product to spend a lot of time helping new developers come on board. Gimp is an extremely large and complex system. I am a fairly experienced coder myself, and have recently submitted patches for two open bugs. But those were easy ones, not really related to any Gimp structures but basic C bug fixing. I have looked at some of the other outstanding bugs and for most don't have a clue where to start, or how to make sure that my fix fits in the vision, or that it doesn't break something else. At this point, knowing how busy the core Gimp developers are, and recognizing that it will take more time for them to walk me through a problem and a solution than it would take them to just fix the issue themselves, I am hesitant to ask for a lot of help. On the other hand, the idea of just delving in and figuring it out myself is quite daunting. Which is where my thought of a boot camp came in. What if there was a group of potential new developers all struggling with the same learning curve? Wouldn't it be great if an experienced Gimp developer could lead the whole group through a series of exercises, designed to gain experience and understanding of the Gimp and Gegl internals. This would require some serious commitment of time by one or more of the Gimp developers, and would mean other work wouldn't get done. The potential payoff however in the form of bringing one or more additional Gimp developers up to speed could be significant. Eric I think there are some good points in Eric's comments. I don't know quite how to describe it, but if the boot camp were virtual in some manner that others coming along in the future could learn from, but not be buried and obsolete issues a few years from now, that would seem to be the best of all worlds. Perhaps something along the line of a highly structured web-based (not particularly email) discussion forum approach (using out-of-the box forum software) wherein each issue/subject/lesson was a tightly managed thread that allowed on-subject question/answer, but then the net of each answer gets integrated back into the initial lesson, making the lessons stronger over time. And if a thread becomes obsolete due to advances in Gimp, etc., the thread can be archived. Unlike a normal discussion forum, the managers would edit, amplify, rearrange or remove both questions and answers as appropriate to strengthen the lesson. After all, the intent is not a real discussion with expression of opinion, etc., the intent is a directed learning experience in which the teachers and students interact to hone the usability of the lesson. Anything that will help to capture the knowledge and experience of the core developers can only help to keep Gimp vital in the coming years. We never know when any individual will no longer be available in Gimp's future, thus capturing that knowledge is really important. Jay ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Pete Bergstrom petebergst...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Eric Grivel g...@lumenssolutions.com wrote: I am getting the impression that the Gimp project is trapped in a chicken-and-egg problem with regard to attracting new contributors, where the few core developers are too busy maintaining the product to spend a lot of time helping new developers come on board. Gimp is an extremely large and complex system. I am a fairly experienced coder myself, and have recently submitted patches for two open bugs. But ... At this point, knowing how busy the core Gimp developers are, and recognizing that it will take more time for them to walk me through a problem and a solution than it would take them to just fix the issue themselves, I am hesitant to ask for a lot of help. On the other hand, the idea of just delving in and figuring it out myself is quite daunting. Which is where my thought of a boot camp came in. What if there was a group of potential new developers all struggling with the same learning ... This would require some serious commitment of time by one or more of the Gimp developers, and would mean other work wouldn't get done. The potential payoff however in the form of bringing one or more additional Gimp developers up to speed could be significant. I find myself in the same situation. I popped up in late December with an interest in getting GEGL more fully integrated into GIMP (I'd like to see 8+ bpc support), and Øyvind gave me some pointers and partial code for what he wants to happen next (so I'm one of the time sinks he referred to a couple of days ago). I'm still working to figure out the seemingly recursive concepts. Feel free to drop by the #gimp and #gegl IRC channels to ask directed smart questions for understanding the code. Also be aware that some of the existing core contributors both dislike email in the first place, and are cursed by knowledge thus not the best people to write introductions to how things work; new-comers are in a better situation to do this. For the last few years GIMP (and GEGL) have been involved in Google Summer of Code which can be considered some form of such a boot camp - some of the students have also stuck around after their last money from google arrived, the common practice in the last years has also been that the domain experts have not neccesarily been direct mentors for students but meta-mentors, giving guidance on irc in the public channels for any problems that might crop up. /Øyvind Kolås -- «The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed» -- William Gibson http://pippin.gimp.org/ http://ffii.org/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
Maybe just a good documentation for GIMP source is needed? Once I tried to patch TinyScheme interpreter to make it work faster. In files I was working on was almost no comments. Łukasz Czerwiński ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
Boot Camp . . . good idea. Docs . . . good idea. Let the newbie's like me (coming out of boot camp) write some of the Docs. Presently I have everything compiled and running under Ubuntu, and I am just reviewing the code to get some sort of context. It is huge. Incredible, actually. Who wrote all of this? Wow. A few comments: * It seems to work best to put the entire project (all source, and all build product) under a project folder in the Home directory. * If possible, that should include a *copy *of any external dependencies . . . with environment variables (etc) adjusted accordingly * The project ought to be able to exist in a *bubble* . . . so as to avoid confusion . . . regarding copies of dependencies that might exist in the OS. * Multiple different project versions ought to be able to exist on the same machine without stepping over each other. Note: I wrote a minimal bash script that duplicates (automates) the steps I took to get to the present state. Maybe we could expand on that idea. * If we do it right, compiling for Linux vs. Windows vs. OSx ought require no more than the flip of a switch. The Blender folks, and others, are moving in that direction. * Shouldn't we standardize on a common development IDE (like Eclipse)? If I am missing something in that area . . . let me know. Thanks, Steve Greenwalt (a.k.a. Acumen) 2011/1/27 Łukasz Czerwiński lc277...@students.mimuw.edu.pl Maybe just a good documentation for GIMP source is needed? Once I tried to patch TinyScheme interpreter to make it work faster. In files I was working on was almost no comments. Łukasz Czerwiński ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On 01/27/2011 05:29 PM, Øyvind Kolås wrote: Feel free to drop by the #gimp and #gegl IRC channels to ask directed smart questions for understanding the code. Also be aware that some of the existing core contributors both dislike email in the first place, and are cursed by knowledge thus not the best people to write introductions to how things work; new-comers are in a better situation to do this. For the last few years GIMP (and GEGL) have been involved in Google Summer of Code which can be considered some form of such a boot camp - some of the students have also stuck around after their last money from google arrived, the common practice in the last years has also been that the domain experts have not neccesarily been direct mentors for students but meta-mentors, giving guidance on irc in the public channels for any problems that might crop up. I've tried asking questions in the #gimp channel, but rarely get an answer. I guess the right people would have to be on-line for that to work. I'm thinking that maybe most contributors are in Europe or on the US West Coast. By the time I get off work (US East Coast), it's past midnight in Europe... I'm not saying that the boot camp idea is the best solution. But I do have the impression there is a bit of a problem. I've noticed a lot of complaining about there not being enough people to contribute, and about it taking too much effort to bring new contributors up to speed... Another thought: I do have some technical writing skills (although it is not my profession). If there are areas where I could write documentation, having support from the experts on my many questions, and have it end up on the developer.gimp.org, maybe that would help. Eric ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
Eric Grivel wrote: Which is where my thought of a boot camp came in. What if there was a group of potential new developers all struggling with the same learning curve? Wouldn't it be great if an experienced Gimp developer could lead the whole group through a series of exercises, designed to gain experience and understanding of the Gimp and Gegl internals. The new people getting an education on GIMP from some sort of boot camp or QA with the developers should write down the information they learn in a public document. It will help others that are starting out. The information will be spotty at first but will gradually be filled in to cover most (all?) areas of GIMP over time as more questions are asked and answered. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On Thu, 2011-01-27 at 16:56 -0700, Stephen Greenwalt wrote: * The project ought to be able to exist in a bubble . . . so as to avoid confusion . . . regarding copies of dependencies that might exist in the OS. Automated builds are typically used to verify dependency issues on multiple platforms and I believe there is work being done on automated builds. However, building from GIT does require building within a sandbox (a local directory tree) where you can build all the required pieces you don't already have or for which you need more recent versions. I talk a little about this on my book's blog: http://www.graphics-muse.org/artistsguide/?p=247 I added some scripts I use to keep my GIT tree build up to date on Fedora to the end of that entry today. * Multiple different project versions ought to be able to exist on the same machine without stepping over each other. There is little to prevent this now. When you build with autoconf you pass --prefix to the configure script for all the prerequisites up to and including GIMP. That gives you the sort of bubble you were talking about, to the extent it covers direct prerequisites for GIMP. If you do this, then running GIMP is just a matter of setting the LD_LIBRARY_PATH and PATH to point to the installation directory (re: what you passed with --prefix). In this way, you can run many different versions of GIMP though not at the same time. The only place they overlap is the .gimp-x.y user directories. This can also be handled with a shell script that points .gimp-x.y to another directory with a symlink before it starts a particular installed development version. * Shouldn't we standardize on a common development IDE (like Eclipse)? If I am missing something in that area . . . let me know. IDE's are crutches. Based on the source tree I don't think the developers use them but I could be wrong. I don't even use IDEs for Java programming. Unless you include cscope as an IDE. Don't bog down in the tools. Open the file and read it. That's how you learn code. -- Michael J. Hammel mjham...@graphics-muse.org / http://www.graphics-muse.org -- Burnout: Attitudes are contagious. Mine could kill you. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On 01/27/2011 10:43 PM, Eric Grivel wrote: I am getting the impression that the Gimp project is trapped in a chicken-and-egg problem with regard to attracting new contributors, where the few core developers are too busy maintaining the product to spend a lot of time helping new developers come on board. To be honest, I don't recall a single instance of when a question about the code has not been answered (when developers have been around). If you are unable to get in touch with core developers on IRC, feel free to use our mailing list instead. It's just that it has to be new contributors driving the core developers, not the other way around. Gimp is an extremely large and complex system. I am a fairly experienced coder myself, and have recently submitted patches for two open bugs. But those were easy ones, not really related to any Gimp structures but basic C bug fixing. I have looked at some of the other outstanding bugs and for most don't have a clue where to start, or how to make sure that my fix fits in the vision, or that it doesn't break something else. This is exactly why I have been setting up a nightly builder and trying to get everyone to write more regression tests: to make GIMP a less scary project to work on. If people can be confident that if they break something, our nightly builder will discover that, then people wouldn't be so afraid. I believe our biggest development-technical mistake right now is that people don't write regression tests for new functionality they add. It is kind of boring and sometimes hard, but the long term effects of consistently doing this is priceless. Our nightly builder is found at http://gimptest.flamingtext.com:8012/waterfall which curiously enough failed this night to my changes yesterday, but I fixed that already... At this point, knowing how busy the core Gimp developers are, and recognizing that it will take more time for them to walk me through a problem and a solution than it would take them to just fix the issue themselves, I am hesitant to ask for a lot of help. On the other hand, the idea of just delving in and figuring it out myself is quite daunting. Please please please don't hesitate asking for help, the worst thing that can happen is that you are ignored ;) But don't underestimate the value of being able to understand code all by yourself. It takes some practice, but that skill is generic and will make you a better programmer in general. Regards, Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On 01/28/2011 12:56 AM, Stephen Greenwalt wrote: It is huge. Incredible, actually. Who wrote all of this? Wow. To see who wrote all this, visit https://www.ohloh.net/p/gimp/contributors A few comments: * It seems to work best to put the entire project (all source, and all build product) under a project folder in the Home directory. * If possible, that should include a /copy /of any external dependencies . . . with environment variables (etc) adjusted accordingly * The project ought to be able to exist in a *bubble* . . . so as to avoid confusion . . . regarding copies of dependencies that might exist in the OS. I've tried quite a few different setups, and I find this to be the best: http://www.chromecode.com/2009/12/best-way-to-keep-up-with-gimp-from-git_26.html * Multiple different project versions ought to be able to exist on the same machine without stepping over each other. As have already been pointed out, you can already do that, just use different --prefix:es * If we do it right, compiling for Linux vs. Windows vs. OSx ought require no more than the flip of a switch. The Blender folks, and others, are moving in that direction. I agree, we should make nightly .rpm, .deb, .exe and .dmg builds. Quite a bit of work left to get there though. * Shouldn't we standardize on a common development IDE (like Eclipse)? If I am missing something in that area . . . let me know. If you want a good IDE I recommend Qt Creator. If I were to start fresh today, I would probably use Qt Creator instead of Emacs. Regards, Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On 01/28/2011 05:22 PM, Martin Nordholts wrote: Our nightly builder is found at http://gimptest.flamingtext.com:8012/waterfall which curiously enough failed this night to my changes yesterday, but I fixed that already... It's not curious, it's the beauty of the nightly build. It breaks while it's fresh in your mind, and so more easily fixed. Cameron ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?
On 01/28/2011 05:01 AM, Michael J. Hammel wrote: * Shouldn't we standardize on a common development IDE (like Eclipse)? If I am missing something in that area . . . let me know. IDE's are crutches. Based on the source tree I don't think the developers use them but I could be wrong. I don't even use IDEs for Java programming. Unless you include cscope as an IDE. Don't bog down in the tools. Open the file and read it. That's how you learn code. Hi Hmm I don't understand your reasoning. So you rather waste time manually refactoring Java code than using Eclipse' excellent integrated reafactoring features? Regards, Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] GIMP in breton language for Windows
Hello, I 'm the breton translator for Gimp. http://www.drouizig.org/index.php?lang=en I noticed that the breton translations are not integrated to the last .exe file for Windows despite the fact we put our translations on the branch http://l10n.gnome.org/module/gimp/ May we hope that breton file could be integrated in the official branch for Windows too ? I 'm waiting GIMP 2.8 impatiently. Congratulations to the team for their great work :) Best regards Alan Monfort ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gegl-developer] Where can I help?
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Stephen Greenwalt stephengreenw...@gmail.com wrote: Where can I help? Here's an ultra-short overview of my background: * Have some extra time I could devote . . . but will wait to quantify that until I hear where you need help. This happens from time to time, sometimes people actually have the time and capability to help, quite often they ask for help - consume time to get up to speed, and then nothing happens. To avoid wasting more time on a reply to this email as well as other requests via mail, IRC and other places I have started writing up a list of pointers about the current state of GIMPs refactoring to use GEGL and where help would be appreciated. See http://gegl.org/contribute.html for this list. /Øyvind Kolås. -- «The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed» -- William Gibson http://pippin.gimp.org/ http://ffii.org/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Where can I help?
Where can I help? Here's an ultra-short overview of my background: * 18 years overall development experience including software engineering, team leader, and senior IT management. * Expert-level C, C++, C#, etc. knowledge. * Extensive 3D design and development knowledge (texture mapping, 3D scene rendering, lighting, etc). * Decent knowledge of file format specs for most common image file formats, as well as some experience writing apps that make in-memory (on the fly) changes to image data. * Have tried my hand at various self-invented strategies for pattern recognition within image data. * Now working, oddly enough, in unrelated areas dealing with Lean Manufacturing, Quality Systems, etc. * Have been using GIMP for certain things for about 3 years or so. * Have some extra time I could devote . . . but will wait to quantify that until I hear where you need help. * Well, there's more . . . Let me know. Thanks, Steve Greenwalt Layton, Utah ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Where can I help?
Hi Steve, On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 09:35, Stephen Greenwalt stephengreenw...@gmail.com wrote: Where can I help? Here's an ultra-short overview of my background: I'm not a developer, but an long term Gimp user. I would suggest: 1. Go into the IRC channel to get direct feedback from the developers. 2. Try to checkout and compile the latest version from the git repository. 3. Have a look into the bugs with the gnome-love keyword: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=keywords%3Agnome-love+product%3A%22GIMP%22+ 4. Talk about the bug you are interested in. (IRC or mailinglist) 5. Add a patch to the bugreport. Alternativ you could help with gegl, have a look at this mail: https://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists/gimp-developer/2011-January/026046.html Regards, Tobias ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Possible Future of ScriptFu/TinyFu with R6RS/Racket
(oops, forgot to send this) On Fri, 2011-01-21 at 13:32 +0100, Michael Natterer wrote: [...] Yes, but still even the most basic, non grouped command might still be triggering a whole series of atomic micro undo operations that would go into an undo group associated with the command. I'm not sure why that's a problem. Probably I'm missing something. The _theory_ is that anything that changes the model goes through a command that is matched against a chain of handlers, with the default handler being the app core.. the _practice_ is that the granularity of that is up to the developers to expose or not expose, so if open-as-layers is an atomic command, then the handlers wouldn't ever see the add layer and file open commands happen and won't be able to change open as layers to position the layers automatically (for example). Long term, people writing scripts would probably push for more things to be exposed. Look at the current set of undo pushing functions in app/core/gimpimage-undo-push.h, which cover the entire set of available user actions and PDB calls. They are really few compared to what variety of manipulations are possible. It could change over time though. I'd really like to see things like the ability to call anything that has a keystroke or menu item or button to do it, for example. And at that point, if every menu command went through the command/handler chain, recording actions would be a lot more feasible. Or consider undo last brush stroke and repeat with eraser instead... We'll see - it's easier to have dreams than to dig ditches. Best, Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Where can I help?
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 12:35 AM, Stephen Greenwalt stephengreenw...@gmail.com wrote: Where can I help? Here's an ultra-short overview of my background: ... Here's one suggestion that you could probably work on immediately, and would prepare you to work on other things if you are interested. Gimp has a plug-in called Lighting Effects that simulates the results of shining lights on 3D-deformed images. It is pretty fancy and sometimes gives neat results, but the rendering procedure it uses doesn't work as well as it could, because the triangles that it decomposes the surface into are too small -- you get a lot of faceting effects that a better algorithm would avoid. Plug-ins are more or less freestanding code, so it ought to be possible to improve the rendering without a huge investment of time in learning the whole architecture of Gimp -- but you would learn a substantial amount about the architecture as a side-effect of working on it. -- Bill ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Where can I help?
On 01/25/2011 09:35 AM, Stephen Greenwalt wrote: Where can I help? It would be great to get help with bugs put on the 2.8 milestone: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?product=GIMPbug_status=UNCONFIRMEDbug_status=NEWbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=REOPENEDtarget_milestone=2.8 Regards, Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GSoC 2011 announced
On 01/25/2011 05:52 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: Google has just announced GSoC2011. Schumaml: Will you be our GSoC master this year too? If so, that would be great. Regards, Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Where can I help?
Thanks for the info. I have used that filter many times, and I will take a look at what you describe. When light is cast against a 3D mesh, how that light diffuses over the surface can also be affected by whether the ray caster is using vector normals, or face normals, and other things. So, triangle size might just be part of the problem. On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Bill Skaggs weska...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 12:35 AM, Stephen Greenwalt stephengreenw...@gmail.com wrote: Where can I help? Here's an ultra-short overview of my background: ... Here's one suggestion that you could probably work on immediately, and would prepare you to work on other things if you are interested. Gimp has a plug-in called Lighting Effects that simulates the results of shining lights on 3D-deformed images. It is pretty fancy and sometimes gives neat results, but the rendering procedure it uses doesn't work as well as it could, because the triangles that it decomposes the surface into are too small -- you get a lot of faceting effects that a better algorithm would avoid. Plug-ins are more or less freestanding code, so it ought to be possible to improve the rendering without a huge investment of time in learning the whole architecture of Gimp -- but you would learn a substantial amount about the architecture as a side-effect of working on it. -- Bill ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Where can I help?
On 01/26/2011 06:55 AM, Stephen Greenwalt wrote: Here's one suggestion that you could probably work on immediately, and would prepare you to work on other things if you are interested. Gimp has a plug-in called Lighting Effects Thanks for the info. I have used that filter many times, and I will take a look at what you describe. Thank you for the offering. I would like to point out though that it would be even more helpful in the long term if the plug-in was ported to a GEGL operation so that we can use it when GIMP does its processing in linear light 32-bit RGBA. Regards, Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Team Organization?
I have been reviewing Gimp / GEGL source code . . . to get familiar with everything . . . so that I have some context to understand where I might help the project. But I am operating in a void because I don't understand: - How the development effort is organized. - Is there a team leader? - What tools, etc. are being used to manage things such as: - Feature requests, bug reports, etc. - Component development. - Testing. - And all the other usual stuff. - What the development priorities are, and where programmer resources are needed. The main Gimp website says that the new priority is expansion of the GEGL engine. But, does that mean that major feature development for main Gimp app is being stopped until the GEGL engine is ready? I, for one, love Gimp but would really like to see one or new features such as: - Support for sub-layers (i.e. nesting of layers in tree-style control). - Ability to delete multiple layers at the same time, rather than one-by-one. - Layer-by-layer history . . . so that you can undo changes within the current layer only. Should I offer help in those areas? Again, I just need some context. Thanks, Steve Greenwalt ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Team Organization?
On 01/26/2011 08:15 AM, Stephen Greenwalt wrote: I have been reviewing Gimp / GEGL source code . . . to get familiar with everything . . . so that I have some context to understand where I might help the project. But I am operating in a void because I don't understand: * How the development effort is organized. o Is there a team leader? Strategic decisions are taken in concert, although due to human nature, the opinions of some individuals have more weight depending on their reputation. We have two official maintainers, cat MAINTAINERS. o What tools, etc. are being used to manage things such as: + Feature requests, bug reports, etc. We prefer feature requests on this mailing list, so that they can be discussed and evaluated, in particular in the context of our product vision [1] Bug reports are managed in GNOME Bugzilla [2] + Component development. In general, all development happens on the git master branch directly, although personally I think we should review our development methodology for GIMP 3.0 because we have problems in our 2.8 development cycles due to this. + Testing. I have a long term goal of improving the GIMP development environment, and have lately put efforts into writing regression tests for both old and new functionality, and I have been setting up a nightly builder that runs all our tests [3]. Curiously enough, you'll notice make distcheck failed tonight due to changes yesterday, but I already fixed that... * What the development priorities are, and where programmer resources are needed. Right now, the priority is getting GIMP 2.8 out. The two major work areas left is finishing the implementations of layer groups and single-window mode, see [4] for the main missing bits. After that, we will start working on GIMP 3.0, which will be GIMP 2.8 running on GTK+ 3.0 and using GEGL-buffers for all data. That is, we will throw out our 8-bit only image/tile data structures. For GIMP 3.2 we will start looking into serious support for non-destructive editing. The main Gimp website says that the new priority is expansion of the GEGL engine. But, does that mean that major feature development for main Gimp app is being stopped until the GEGL engine is ready? See above I, for one, love Gimp but would really like to see one or new features such as: * Support for sub-layers (i.e. nesting of layers in tree-style control). Fundamental support for that is already in place in git master * Ability to delete multiple layers at the same time, rather than one-by-one. Yes that would be nice, but support for higher bit depths and non-destructiveness has higher priority * Layer-by-layer history . . . so that you can undo changes within the current layer only. Sounds like a work-around for GIMP not having non-destructive editing yet Should I offer help in those areas? Any help is greatly appreciated. Best regards, Martin [1] http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision [2] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?product=GIMP [3] http://gimptest.flamingtext.com:8012/waterfall [4] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?product=GIMPbug_status=UNCONFIRMEDbug_status=NEWbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=REOPENEDtarget_milestone=2.8 -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] scanfs without field width limits making Gimp crash
Nelson A. de Oliveira (nao...@gmail.com) wrote: While testing gimp with cppcheck I saw a lot of warnings caused by the usage of scanf and fscanf without specifying a width limit. For Gimp itself there is a bug report on this issue at https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=639203 I guess I'll commit the patch attached to the bugreport soon unless someone has a better suggestion. Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] scanfs without field width limits making Gimp crash
On 24 January 2011 03:30, Christopher Curtis ccurt...@gmail.com wrote: If I add another '0' to the perl line I get a seg fault as well. Must be a not-quite 64-bit limit. Off-topic, but could someone explain why this isn't a stdio bug? Or is it a known bug and this is the accepted workaround? John ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] scanfs without field width limits making Gimp crash
Hi! On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:26 AM, Simon Budig si...@budig.de wrote: For Gimp itself there is a bug report on this issue at https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=639203 I guess I'll commit the patch attached to the bugreport soon unless someone has a better suggestion. But here, for example (from your patch): snprintf (fmt_str, sizeof (fmt_str), %%d %%d %%%lds, sizeof (endbuf) - 1); if (sscanf (line, fmt_str, t-majtype, t-type, end) != 3) Won't it still be affected by a very large integer (like the example that I sent on my initial message) at the first or second position in the file? I get this when trying to load an example with the the big number: = Plug-in crashed: sphere-designer (/usr/lib/gimp/2.0/plug-ins/sphere-designer) The dying plug-in may have messed up GIMP's internal state. You may want to save your images and restart GIMP to be on the safe side. = But I can't say how bad or ignorable it is. Best regards, Nelson ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] scanfs without field width limits making Gimp crash
Nelson A. de Oliveira (nao...@gmail.com) wrote: On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:26 AM, Simon Budig si...@budig.de wrote: For Gimp itself there is a bug report on this issue at https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=639203 I guess I'll commit the patch attached to the bugreport soon unless someone has a better suggestion. But here, for example (from your patch): snprintf (fmt_str, sizeof (fmt_str), %%d %%d %%%lds, sizeof (endbuf) - 1); if (sscanf (line, fmt_str, t-majtype, t-type, end) != 3) Won't it still be affected by a very large integer (like the example that I sent on my initial message) at the first or second position in the file? Ah sorry, should have mentioned that. The bug report is older than your mail to the list. We had a report on the %s conversion earlier which is what the patch attached to the bug attempts to fix. The %i problems are new to me and I tend to think that these are bugs in the libc and should be fixed there, although it probably would not hurt to add some more length specifiers... Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] scanfs without field width limits making Gimp crash
Hi!
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Simon Budig si...@budig.de wrote:
Ah sorry, should have mentioned that. The bug report is older than your
mail to the list. We had a report on the %s conversion earlier which is
what the patch attached to the bug attempts to fix.
Here (also from your patch):
snprintf (fmt_str, sizeof (fmt_str), %%%lds %%%lds %%%lds %%%lds,
sizeof (colorstr_r) - 1, sizeof (colorstr_g) - 1,
sizeof (colorstr_b) - 1, sizeof (colorstr_a) - 1);
sscanf (ptr, fmt_str, colorstr_r, colorstr_g, colorstr_b, colorstr_a);
It will protects against the overflow, but there is a chance to get
wrong data (if the first string is also very big). For example, with
this ugly example code that I think that is similar to the one from
your patch:
#include stdio.h
int main()
{
char str1[16];
char str2[16];
char str3[16];
char str4[16];
char fmt[128];
char buf[] =
bbb ccc ddd;
snprintf(fmt, sizeof(fmt), %%%lds %%%lds %%%lds %%%lds,
sizeof(str1) - 1, sizeof(str2) - 1, sizeof(str3) - 1, sizeof(str4) -
1);
sscanf(buf, fmt, str1, str2, str3, str4);
printf(*%s* *%s* *%s* *%s*, str1, str2, str3, str4);
return 0;
}
See that we have one big string first and all the four vars (wrongly)
were used by it:
*aaa* *aaa* *aaa* *aaa*
Right?
Best regards,
Nelson
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] scanfs without field width limits making Gimp crash
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:09 AM, Nelson A. de Oliveira nao...@gmail.com wrote:
Here (also from your patch):
snprintf (fmt_str, sizeof (fmt_str), %%%lds %%%lds %%%lds %%%lds,
sizeof (colorstr_r) - 1, sizeof (colorstr_g) - 1,
sizeof (colorstr_b) - 1, sizeof (colorstr_a) - 1);
sscanf (ptr, fmt_str, colorstr_r, colorstr_g, colorstr_b, colorstr_a);
FWIW, I often use an idiom like this:
--
#include stdio.h
#define stringy(x) cpp2str(x)
#define cpp2str(x) #x
#define CONSTLEN 24
int main()
{
char var[CONSTLEN+1];
scanf( % stringy(CONSTLEN) [^ ]s, var );
return 0;
}
--
It's not as flexible as being able to use a sizeof() operator but I've
found it to generally be reasonable.
Chris
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Scale bars in 2.7
Hi, I think this is already being adressed for 2.8. You are not the only one who is bothered by this. Basing the rate of change upon the current zoom is a very good idea! It would definitly make sense to have the slider automatically cover a range between 1px and half-the-smallest-width-of-visible-canvas On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:33:36AM +0100, Emil Assarsson wrote: Hi all, I know that 2.7 is still in development and much will change but I hope you don't mind some comments. This is about the scale bars in the brush attribute editor etc. I find it hard to use especially when I try to set the Size to something less than 40 in the normal width. Is it possible to add some kind of decelerator (hotkey?) on those so it would be easier to fine tune? I find the small up and down buttons useless. It might be an idea to adjust the scale to reflect the zoom from 1:1 pixel? It would also be nice if the number where selected so they easily could be replaced with a new value without having to try to select it by dragging the mouse pointer which may or may not work depending on where the scale bar is located. BR Emil Assarsson ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] [PATCH] gimpcairo-utils.h missing parens around some macro arguments
The subject and patch are pretty self-explanatory. Ran into this while
trying to do pointer arithmetic with these macros.
--xsdg
From 0ba4f676e3de80233b7ab184b11e527b61ab6158 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Omari Stephens x...@xsdg.org
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 18:49:08 +
Subject: [PATCH] Add missing parens around macro arguments
---
libgimpwidgets/gimpcairo-utils.h | 32
1 files changed, 16 insertions(+), 16 deletions(-)
diff --git a/libgimpwidgets/gimpcairo-utils.h b/libgimpwidgets/gimpcairo-utils.h
index 6d614a0..b538c2d 100644
--- a/libgimpwidgets/gimpcairo-utils.h
+++ b/libgimpwidgets/gimpcairo-utils.h
@@ -105,10 +105,10 @@ cairo_surface_t * gimp_cairo_surface_create_from_pixbuf (GdkPixbuf *pixbuf);
const guint tr = (a) * (r) + 0x80; \
const guint tg = (a) * (g) + 0x80; \
const guint tb = (a) * (b) + 0x80; \
-d[0] = (((tb) 8) + (tb)) 8; \
-d[1] = (((tg) 8) + (tg)) 8; \
-d[2] = (((tr) 8) + (tr)) 8; \
-d[3] = (a);\
+(d)[0] = (((tb) 8) + (tb)) 8;\
+(d)[1] = (((tg) 8) + (tg)) 8;\
+(d)[2] = (((tr) 8) + (tr)) 8;\
+(d)[3] = (a); \
} G_STMT_END
#else
#define GIMP_CAIRO_ARGB32_SET_PIXEL(d, r, g, b, a) \
@@ -116,10 +116,10 @@ cairo_surface_t * gimp_cairo_surface_create_from_pixbuf (GdkPixbuf *pixbuf);
const guint tr = (a) * (r) + 0x80; \
const guint tg = (a) * (g) + 0x80; \
const guint tb = (a) * (b) + 0x80; \
-d[0] = (a);\
-d[1] = (((tr) 8) + (tr)) 8; \
-d[2] = (((tg) 8) + (tg)) 8; \
-d[3] = (((tb) 8) + (tb)) 8; \
+(d)[0] = (a); \
+(d)[1] = (((tr) 8) + (tr)) 8;\
+(d)[2] = (((tg) 8) + (tg)) 8;\
+(d)[3] = (((tb) 8) + (tb)) 8;\
} G_STMT_END
#endif
@@ -138,10 +138,10 @@ cairo_surface_t * gimp_cairo_surface_create_from_pixbuf (GdkPixbuf *pixbuf);
#if G_BYTE_ORDER == G_LITTLE_ENDIAN
#define GIMP_CAIRO_ARGB32_GET_PIXEL(s, r, g, b, a) \
G_STMT_START { \
-const guint tb = s[0]; \
-const guint tg = s[1]; \
-const guint tr = s[2]; \
-const guint ta = s[3]; \
+const guint tb = (s)[0]; \
+const guint tg = (s)[1]; \
+const guint tr = (s)[2]; \
+const guint ta = (s)[3]; \
(r) = (tr 8) / (ta + 1);\
(g) = (tg 8) / (ta + 1);\
(b) = (tb 8) / (ta + 1);\
@@ -150,10 +150,10 @@ cairo_surface_t * gimp_cairo_surface_create_from_pixbuf (GdkPixbuf *pixbuf);
#else
#define GIMP_CAIRO_ARGB32_GET_PIXEL(s, r, g, b, a) \
G_STMT_START { \
-const guint ta = s[0]; \
-const guint tr = s[1]; \
-const guint tg = s[2]; \
-const guint tb = s[3]; \
+const guint ta = (s)[0]; \
+const guint tr = (s)[1]; \
+const guint tg = (s)[2]; \
+const guint tb = (s)[3]; \
(r) = (tr 8) / (ta + 1);\
(g) = (tg 8) / (ta + 1);\
(b) = (tb 8) / (ta + 1);\
--
1.7.2.3
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [PATCH] gimpcairo-utils.h missing parens around some macro arguments
On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 19:00 +, Omari Stephens wrote: The subject and patch are pretty self-explanatory. Ran into this while trying to do pointer arithmetic with these macros. Thanks, fix pushed. --mitch ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] GSoC 2011 announced
Hello, teams :) Google has just announced GSoC2011. http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2011/01/google-summer-of-code-announced-at-lca.html The timeline is here: http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2011/timeline /crossposting-is-evil Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] donations for GIMP 2.8
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org wrote: Who wants to volunteer to prepare a list of bugs that are worth having a bounty put on them? I believe it can only work if the bugs are nominated by developers who are prepared to mentor whoever is doing it for the bounty. I can dredge through my stuff, but Mitch and Martin and pippin for gegl should really do the same for their own stuff. -- --Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Submitted patches for bug 596410
Hi, I submitted a series of patches to bug 596410. This is my first time working on Gimp and I'm new to git at well. I am very open to suggestions on how to do things differently (better). Eric ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Submitted patches for bug 596410
On 01/23/2011 09:11 PM, Eric Grivel wrote: Hi, I submitted a series of patches to bug 596410. This is my first time working on Gimp and I'm new to git at well. I am very open to suggestions on how to do things differently (better). Hi and thanks, I'll review them soonish. Regards, Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Scale bars in 2.7
Hi all, I know that 2.7 is still in development and much will change but I hope you don't mind some comments. This is about the scale bars in the brush attribute editor etc. I find it hard to use especially when I try to set the Size to something less than 40 in the normal width. Is it possible to add some kind of decelerator (hotkey?) on those so it would be easier to fine tune? I find the small up and down buttons useless. It might be an idea to adjust the scale to reflect the zoom from 1:1 pixel? It would also be nice if the number where selected so they easily could be replaced with a new value without having to try to select it by dragging the mouse pointer which may or may not work depending on where the scale bar is located. BR Emil Assarsson ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] scanfs without field width limits making Gimp crash
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:04 AM, Nelson A. de Oliveira nao...@gmail.com wrote: To make it crash: perl -e 'print 5x210' | ./a.out I believe the unbounded '%s' is a legitimate bug, but is the '%i' assertion true? The example it gives doesn't crash when I run it. Instead scanf returns ERANGE and (oddly) sets 'a' to -1. This may be Linux specific behavior though. Chris ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] scanfs without field width limits making Gimp crash
Hi! On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:11 AM, Christopher Curtis ccurt...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:04 AM, Nelson A. de Oliveira nao...@gmail.com wrote: To make it crash: perl -e 'print 5x210' | ./a.out I believe the unbounded '%s' is a legitimate bug, but is the '%i' assertion true? The example it gives doesn't crash when I run it. Instead scanf returns ERANGE and (oddly) sets 'a' to -1. This may be Linux specific behavior though. Both on Linux and FreeBSD I get a segmentation fault with the example code. I can't test on other platforms however. Best regards, Nelson ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] scanfs without field width limits making Gimp crash
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Nelson A. de Oliveira nao...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:11 AM, Christopher Curtis ccurt...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:04 AM, Nelson A. de Oliveira nao...@gmail.com wrote: To make it crash: perl -e 'print 5x210' | ./a.out The example it gives doesn't crash when I run it. Instead scanf returns ERANGE and (oddly) sets 'a' to -1. This may be Linux specific behavior though. Both on Linux and FreeBSD I get a segmentation fault with the example code. I can't test on other platforms however. If I add another '0' to the perl line I get a seg fault as well. Must be a not-quite 64-bit limit. Chris ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Coding Convention Question
On Fri, 2011-01-21 at 19:05 -0500, Eric Grivel wrote: Hi, I'm looking at bug #596410 and in order to get to the import source in gimpimage.c, I seem to have to #include ../file/gimp-file.h (to get to the GIMP_FILE_IMPORT_SOURCE_KEY constant). Is it appropriate to include a header file from a sibling directory this way? No, you just #include file/gimp-file.h. The include paths for the compiler are configured so that this will work. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Possible Future of ScriptFu/TinyFu with R6RS/Racket
On Thu, 2011-01-20 at 23:01 -0500, Liam R E Quin wrote: On Thu, 2011-01-20 at 15:10 +0100, Michael Natterer wrote: I discussed this with Martin, and the outcome was to have a command layer around the core, and not make it a 1:1 match of undo operations, because undos are very atomic operation, whereas commands rather correspond to undo groups of arbitrary complexity. In Author/Editor we had command groups, so that one command might have a whole sequence of sub-commands but make a single entry in the undo/redo history. The handler chain got to see the outer command as well as the sequence of inner commands, of course. Yes, but still even the most basic, non grouped command might still be triggering a whole series of atomic micro undo operations that would go into an undo group associated with the command. Look at the current set of undo pushing functions in app/core/gimpimage-undo-push.h, which cover the entire set of available user actions and PDB calls. They are really few compared to what variety of manipulations are possible. --mitch ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Coding Convention Question
Hi, I'm looking at bug #596410 and in order to get to the import source in gimpimage.c, I seem to have to #include ../file/gimp-file.h (to get to the GIMP_FILE_IMPORT_SOURCE_KEY constant). Is it appropriate to include a header file from a sibling directory this way? Thanks, Eric ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] scanfs without field width limits making Gimp crash
Hi!
While testing gimp with cppcheck I saw a lot of warnings caused by the
usage of scanf and fscanf without specifying a width limit.
One example:
=
[./app/gegl/gimpcurvesconfig.c:392]: (warning) scanf without field
width limits can crash with huge input data. To fix this error message
add a field width specifier:
%s = %20s
%i = %3i
Sample program that can crash:
#include stdio.h
int main()
{
int a;
scanf(%i, a);
return 0;
}
To make it crash:
perl -e 'print 5x210' | ./a.out
=
Indeed it's possible to make gimp crash by using a curve file with
such big value; you can test by trying to import
http://people.debian.org/~naoliv/misc/gimp/curve.cur
A full list of fscanf/scanf warnings is available at
http://people.debian.org/~naoliv/misc/gimp/scanf.txt
Thank you!
Best regards,
Nelson
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP icon stolen by commercial Symbian software on sale at Nokia app store
On 01/19/11 23:15, Ilgaz Öcal wrote: Hello, After spending some time on IRC, I decided this is the best way to report it. I noticed Nokia Ovi Store (an app store) carries a software named SnapMe which is clearly not GPL using GIMP application icon. You should be able to see when you click on following link: http://store.ovi.com/search?q=SnapMe I did my best to report (c) violation to Nokia but from what I hear, their staff is way overloaded. Actual way to report it is at article 7 of following document which requires you to be the actual copyright owner of the image. http://store.ovi.com/legal/terms 7. Allegations of Copyright Infringement You may notify Nokia of copyright infringement on the Service by providing notice (a) by email with “Copyright Notification” in the subject line to copyright.noti...@nokia.com, (b) by a document titled “Copyright Notification” mailed to Nokia, Attn: Copyright Agent, 102 Corporate Park Drive, White Plains, NY 10604, USA or (c) via the online form, if available. Your notice must: (1) identify the original copyrighted work you claim is infringed; (2) identify the content on the Service that you claim is infringing the copyrighted work. Please provide enough detail for Nokia to locate the allegedly infringing content on the Service; (3) provide your contact information, including your full name, mailing address, telephone number, and email address, if available; (4) provide a statement that you have a good faith belief that the use of the content in the manner complained of is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law; (5) provide this statement: I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in this notification and complaint is accurate and that I am the copyright owner, or am authorized to act on behalf of the copyright owner of an exclusive right that is infringed.; and (6) provide your signature, as applicable. What a joke! It is not for Nokia to impose stringent conditions on those who wish to notify them of possible illegal content in their products. It is their responsibility to ensure they are not breaking the law. You do not need to be the copyright holder to inform them you believe they are breaking the law. If you want to act on this , just send them a written letter by a signed for mail service to one of there corporate offices. I would strongly advise against any sworn statement and suggest you couch everything in conditional disclaimers like it appears that , I believe that etc. so that they can't accuse you of anything. BTW the logo has not been stolen , gimp.org is still in possession of it and still using it. Theft implies dispossessing someone of a physical object. Making a copy does not deprive the rightful owner of possession. Copyright infringement is a civil offence not to be assimilated with theft which is a criminal act. The logo has not been stolen , neither were the climategate emails stolen. That just stupid tabloid newpaper language. /gg So as I know copyright issues should be taken serious, especially by GPL software, I thought I better report it this way. Sorry for off topic message, if it is... Ilgaz Ocal ___ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Possible Future of ScriptFu/TinyFu with R6RS/Racket
On Tue, 2011-01-18 at 19:59 -0500, Liam R E Quin wrote: On Fri, 2011-01-14 at 22:39 +0100, Michael Schumacher wrote: [...] Martin wants to change the Undo system using the Command Pattern (see comment 43 of the above report, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_Pattern for an explanation of this pattern). It's a good architecture - I've used a scheme-scriptable editor once before that had this pattern (before they were called patterns) along with MVC, and along with scheme access to the menus, keypress events etc., and it turned out to be very powerful. (when I brought it up in IRC some time ago there didn't seem to be much support, though, so I am not sure there's agreement on it yet) I discussed this with Martin, and the outcome was to have a command layer around the core, and not make it a 1:1 match of undo operations, because undos are very atomic operation, whereas commands rather correspond to undo groups of arbitrary complexity. So there will be a connection between the two, but they can't be merged the way Michael's last mail suggests. ciao, --Mitch ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] GEGL 0.1.4 and babl 0.1.4
GEGL (Generic Graphics Library) is a graph based image processing framework. GEGL provides a graph based API and framework to do demand driven, cached, non destructive image editing of larger than RAM images. Through babl it provides support for a wide range of color models and pixel storage formats for input and output. To build gegl-0.1.4 you will also need babl-0.1.4 Changes in this release: • Operations: save (chooses delegate save op automatically) rgbe load/save jpeg200 load/save ppm load/save map-absolute (GIMP cage tool gsoc helper op) whirl and pinch mirrors grid render fixed imagemagick fallback load op fixed pipe based dcraw wrapper GSoC 2010 ops: exp-combine, reinhard05, fattal02, mantiuk06, matting-levin • Various source and build improvements. • improvements towards threaded rendering • Buffer: refactored away some constant overhead made GeglBufferIterator API public This release of GEGL was made possible by contributions from: Michael Natterer, Øyvind Kolås, Vincent Untz, Kaja Liiv, Nils Philippsen, Étienne Bersac, Martin Nordholts, Debarshi Ray, Danny Robson, Stuart Axon, Kao, Mukund Sivaraman, Ruben Vermeersch, Barak Itkin, Michael Muré, Mikael Magnusson, Patrick Horgan and Andy Gill. Where to get GEGL: The latest versions of GEGL and it's hard dependencies babl and glib can be fetched from: ftp://ftp.gimp.org/pub/babl/0.1/babl-0.1.4.tar.bz2 ftp://ftp.gimp.org/pub/gegl/0.1/gegl-0.1.4.tar.bz2 ftp://ftp.gtk.org/pub/glib/2.20/glib-2.20.5.tar.bz2 The integrity of the tarballs can be verified with: sha1sum *.bz2 1abe98b11e67737b6f74d6993d45046eec93bcda babl-0.1.4.tar.bz2 dcb437205850e598a48e314add68b13cd26f542c gegl-0.1.4.tar.bz2 19e2b2684d7bc35a73ff94eb7fd15fc70cc6f292 glib-2.20.5.tar.bz2 Where to get more information about GEGL More information about GEGL can be found at the GEGL website, or by joining #gegl or #gimp on the irc network GIMPnet. /Øyvind Kolås -- «The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed» -- William Gibson http://pippin.gimp.org/ http://ffii.org/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Possible Future of ScriptFu/TinyFu with R6RS/Racket
On Thu, 2011-01-20 at 15:10 +0100, Michael Natterer wrote: I discussed this with Martin, and the outcome was to have a command layer around the core, and not make it a 1:1 match of undo operations, because undos are very atomic operation, whereas commands rather correspond to undo groups of arbitrary complexity. In Author/Editor we had command groups, so that one command might have a whole sequence of sub-commands but make a single entry in the undo/redo history. The handler chain got to see the outer command as well as the sequence of inner commands, of course. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP icon quot; stolenquot; by commercial Symbian software on sale at Nokia app store
gg at catking.net writes: On 01/19/11 23:15, Ilgaz Öcal wrote: Hello, After spending some time on IRC, I decided this is the best way to report it. I noticed Nokia Ovi Store (an app store) carries a software named SnapMe which is clearly not GPL using GIMP application icon. You should be able to see when you click on following link: http://store.ovi.com/search?q=SnapMe I did my best to report (c) violation to Nokia but from what I hear, their staff is way overloaded. Actual way to report it is at article 7 of following document which requires you to be the actual copyright owner of the image. snip What a joke! It is not for Nokia to impose stringent conditions on those who wish to notify them of possible illegal content in their products. It is their responsibility to ensure they are not breaking the law. You can ask 300 million Symbian users and ex-Symbian users about their jokes but it doesn't change they stupidly created that policy preventing me from reporting it in an official way that will be archived on their systems and legally bind them. You do not need to be the copyright holder to inform them you believe they are breaking the law. If you want to act on this , just send them a written letter by a signed for mail service to one of there corporate offices. I would strongly advise against any sworn statement and suggest you couch everything in conditional disclaimers like it appears that , I believe that etc. so that they can't accuse you of anything. BTW the logo has not been stolen , gimp.org is still in possession of it and still using it. Theft implies dispossessing someone of a physical object. Making a copy does not deprive the rightful owner of possession. Copyright infringement is a civil offence not to be assimilated with theft which is a criminal act. Yes, I couldn't find correct word for it and my purpose of posting that message to developer list of an application which I can't even build (because of arch issues) to send an heads up to GIMP project developers, who really owns it. So, that is why I used the sign. The logo has not been stolen , neither were the climategate emails stolen. That just stupid tabloid newpaper language. While posting the message, I had a feeling that it is slightly off topic. What gave me the reason is actually GIMP doesn't have (or I couldn't find) a dedicated page to report license issues like Mozilla folks have. On the other hand, as you see I am posting with my real name, not /IO, I am not a native english speaker. It is persons like you who really manages to make people afraid of sending any feedback, positive or negative. This is not a copyright matters forum or English lecture class. I have no reason to debate whether I am posting in the right terms or if I, as a foreigner who speaks english as a second language uses Tabloid language. Message purpose to reach GIMP developers about this very shameful act by a developer who sure knows what GIMP is (Symbian isn't a toy to code) and let them contact Nokia as our feedback would likely be lost in thousands of my app is bwoken kind of messages. I was expecting some kind of off topic flame but not this. It is really interesting that only absolute offtopic message with flaming the messenger for the choice of words happens on this particular open source projects mailing list. I got my lesson second time for attempting to help an open source project in a positive manner. /ggSo as I know copyright issues should be taken serious, especially by GPL software, I thought I better report it this way. Sorry for off topic message, if it is... ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP icon quot; stolenquot; by commercial Symbian software on sale at Nokia app store
On 01/21/2011 06:37 AM, Ilgaz Ocal wrote: I got my lesson second time for attempting to help an open source project in a positive manner. Hi Ilgaz Don't take one unfriendly reply from an arbitrary person as a representative reply from everyone. There are many of us that appreciate that you want to help us out. Thank you for that. Regards, Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp and Tablets (or other extended input devices) with newer GTK2 versions?
On Tuesday, January 18, 2011 09:46:29 Peter Daum wrote: I read the announcement on the Gimp home page regarding Gimp 2.8, which also mentions the broken graphic tablets support in GTK+ as a showstopper without providing any details. It's been talked about I think both in this list and in the wacom user list. I personally can't get my tablet working with anything newer than GTK+ 2.18. I filed bug reports some months ago (for details see: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=593087 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627022 ) so far without any reaction. Have you tried GTK-s all the way to the latest?. Your issue isn't common. The bug reprt is first Ive heard about it and I myself dont see this. I'm using very mutch up to date GTK and its mostly usable with very problematic cotchas. Known issues sofar are: 1) non-extended devices stop interacting with canvas on random starts if an extended device is present. 2) some dialogs and elements in the UI ignore extended device input. Even though the problem itself is clearly in GTK and not in Gimp, maybe there is some interest here because Gimp certainly is the most prominent application that can use GTK's tablet support ... Since I cant say its a common issue you could perhaps try upgrading your tablet drivers and then trying out latest GTK and gimp 2.7. Best, Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] translate menu mod
On Tue, 2011-01-18 at 00:29 -0500, Kevin Cozens wrote: Sven Neumann wrote: Um, sorry. Somehow I was under the impression that it should work. But you are right, it's supported for plug-ins but not (yet) for Script-Fu scripts. Are translations enabled on all plug-ins? What about for Python scripts? Python scripts are full-fledged plug-ins and can use the framework that exists for GIMP plug-ins. There's API to register a translation domain and this allows third-party plug-ins to install their own message catalogs. Having taken a look at a plugin just after I wrote those initial questions I remember we talked about adding a _ function (or something like that) so that Script-Fu would have a way to mark strings for translation allowing for getenv(?) to be called during runtime. Script-Fu has that already (and it's gettext that gets called, or actually dgetext). However so far the message is translated in the standard script-fu translation domain so this doesn't work for third-party scripts. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] translate menu mod
On Fri, 2011-01-14 at 01:42 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 1/13/11, Sven Neumann wrote: Why doesn't FX Foundry install its own po files in its own translation domain? Script-Fu has support for registering an additional translation domain. Because you said it was impossible :) http://www.mail-archive.com/gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/msg19130.html And Kevin agreed :) Um, sorry. Somehow I was under the impression that it should work. But you are right, it's supported for plug-ins but not (yet) for Script-Fu scripts. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] donations for GIMP 2.8
On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 00:27 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote: On 01/06/2011 11:01 PM, Sven Neumann wrote: I just wanted to let you know that we have seen a dramatic increase in donations since then. More than 120 people donated over the last 8 days and sent us about 2,500 dollars. Perhaps it would be a good idea to discuss how we can actually use this money to make the GIMP 2.8 release happen soon... Here are some examples of what I think blocks a GIMP 2.8 release: * Finish single-window mode * Make layer masks work with layer groups * Bug 596410 - gimp-image-get-filename returns NULL for imported files * Bug 597117 - impossible to drop a group as a sibling inside a group * Bug 612931 - Moving individual layer in layer group not possible with Move Tool * Bug 600554 - Implement layer group transforms * Bug 624303 - Introduce an item class in PyGIMP * Bug 630748 - display filters do not work * Bug 631766 - Bad performance when moving brush outline on canvas One natural use of money donated specifically to speed up a GIMP 2.8 release would be in the form of bounties for fixing bugs that blocks GIMP 2.8 from being released. I know we have a history of disliking bounties, but as far as I know we never really tried, and now we have money more or less ear-marked for this purpose. So far this has been the most constructive idea that has been brought up in this thread. So why not? Let's try to come up with a list of bugs that block the GIMP 2.8 release and put bounties on them. Who wants to volunteer to prepare a list of bugs that are worth having a bounty put on them? The stream of donations has dropped a little but there is still significantly more money coming in than usual. We have received more than $1,000 in the last 7 days. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] donations for GIMP 2.8
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org wrote:So far this has been the most constructive idea that has been brought up in this thread. So why not? Let's try to come up with a list of bugs that block the GIMP 2.8 release and put bounties on them. Who wants to volunteer to prepare a list of bugs that are worth having a bounty put on them? Sven Hi there. This has been effective for google and mozilla, sounds like it is worth a try. I've got one week before school starts, if the list appears soon, I'd be inclined to try to fix something. Peace, Mike ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] donations for GIMP 2.8
On 01/17/2011 11:32 PM, Mike Williams wrote: On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org mailto:s...@gimp.org wrote:So far this has been the most constructive idea that has been brought up in this thread. So why not? Let's try to come up with a list of bugs that block the GIMP 2.8 release and put bounties on them. Who wants to volunteer to prepare a list of bugs that are worth having a bounty put on them? Sven Hi there. This has been effective for google and mozilla, sounds like it is worth a try. I've got one week before school starts, if the list appears soon, I'd be inclined to try to fix something. Ideally CS professors would be lured into giving assignments around GIMP bug fixing... And this would introduce students to real-world programming. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] translate menu mod
Sven Neumann wrote: Um, sorry. Somehow I was under the impression that it should work. But you are right, it's supported for plug-ins but not (yet) for Script-Fu scripts. Are translations enabled on all plug-ins? What about for Python scripts? Having taken a look at a plugin just after I wrote those initial questions I remember we talked about adding a _ function (or something like that) so that Script-Fu would have a way to mark strings for translation allowing for getenv(?) to be called during runtime. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Gimp and Tablets (or other extended input devices) with newer GTK2 versions?
I read the announcement on the Gimp home page regarding Gimp 2.8, which also mentions the broken graphic tablets support in GTK+ as a showstopper without providing any details. I personally can't get my tablet working with anything newer than GTK+ 2.18. I filed bug reports some months ago (for details see: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=593087 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627022 ) so far without any reaction. Even though the problem I have makes a tablet (or probably any X11 extended input device) almost useless, I also could not find any other reports about this issue - all messages about problems with tablets are either old, or referring only to MS Windows, so I am not sure if this is a problem only I have or if nobody cares because there are just not enough people using such devices (which I always suspected because at least on a dual-head display using a tablet for many years has been very cumbersome) Therefore I'd be very curious to know what problem that gimp announcement is talking about and if there is actually somebody working on it. If it's something totally different (recent postings on this list sounded like it was GTK3-related - I didn't' even know there was such a thing ...), I'd still like to know if the problem that I have is for some mysterious reason only affecting me or if if this is a known issue - and maybe even some hope for a fix ... (Until I find a solution for this, I am stuck with gtk2.12 and gimp versions old enough to work with it) Even though the problem itself is clearly in GTK and not in Gimp, maybe there is some interest here because Gimp certainly is the most prominent application that can use GTK's tablet support ... Regards, Peter ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Dropping Scheme with gimp 2.8?
I'd like to apologize to the list. I had responded to Kevin off-list because most of my questions were specific to the upstream TinyScheme project and had only peripheral impact to Script-fu development. I probably should have posted to the list anyway (I have attached the contents of my original response if anyone is interested). Quoting Kevin Cozens ke...@ve3syb.ca: What would be the best way for me to participate in TinyScheme development? The official webpage for TinyScheme is http://tinyscheme.sourceforge.net/. It is a SourceForge project so there is a mailing list, bug tracking system, and a version controlled source code repository. Thanks for that info. I have joined the mailing list and look forward to greater participation now that I am aware of the proper channels (congratulations on your appointment as a project leader). It would probably be helpful if the TinyScheme website (http://tinyscheme.sourceforge.net/home.html) contained a direct link to the project's SourceForge resource page (http://sourceforge.net/projects/tinyscheme/). I realize I can be dense at times, I was completely unaware of the mailing list, bug tracker, and forums existence despite searching for such things on several occasions over the last few years (I mistakenly concluded that TinyScheme was a merely privately developed project). There are a number of things that need to be done. I will to set up a wiki so there is a place for information about the project. I would be happy to contribute to such a wiki, and volunteer to help administer it if you should like. The changes to TinyScheme used in Script-Fu don't have to be limited but they have to be made carefully. ... TinyScheme has to stay tiny so it can't just be changed to start using functions from glib. One option to adding features that aren't that important to have, or which would be for GIMP/Script-Fu use only, is to use run-time loadable extensions. There are so many good Scheme implementations out there -- Chicken, Racket, Bigloo, and GUILE seems to be making a resurgence -- that I do not foresee any desirability to greatly increasing TinyScheme's capabilities. I'm mainly interested in bug fixes and just a couple targeted enhancements which could readily be implemented with the run-time extensions. For Script-fu, I think it is critical that it not change too drastically over time and that scripts do not come to rely upon features which are not provided by the software delivered with GIMP (or hard dependencies thereof), whether as TinyScheme extensions or external libraries. To the topic of this thread, I think it would be foolhardy to remove Script-fu from GIMP anytime in near future and I am pleased to hear you also assert that. The issue is not whether better programming languages exist, but that Script-fu scripts can be relied upon to easily be installed and readily function with any distribution of GIMP on any platform. As long as Script-fu provides this cross-platform support and maintains its small memory footprint (~500Kb by my estimation), there is little to advocate its removal. By the same token, if Script-fu scripts were to start proliferating which relied upon third-party libraries or customized compilations of GIMP (wherein unofficial TinyScheme extensions were employed) then Script-fu would lose one of its most important advantages over plug-ins written in C, Python, Perl, other implementations of Scheme, etc. Should any other extension language aspire to replace Script-fu, it first should have to satisfy this works with every GIMP characteristic of Script-fu. Any GIMP feature which depends upon the operating system including the language support -- or the user installing such support characteristic -- is a tentative feature at best. Unless the language implementation ships with GIMP, this is unlikely to occur. Python probably comes closest, but even it is not deployed in a standardized manner across all platforms. This is more owing to version differences than platform differences, but net result is still the same -- it is not ensured that a Python plug-in that works on one OS will work on another (including different different distributions of GNU/Linux). That is not to say there is anything wrong with any of these other languages (or other implementations of Scheme), but Script-fu is currently providing extensibility to GIMP that no other language has been able to match (and likely never able to). Continue to advocate your language of choice and freely share your plug-ins written in that language, ignoring that Script-fu even exists. However, if anyone wishes to advocate the *removal* of Script-fu then they should start by providing a self-contained implementation of the substitute language which can ship with GIMP, and be willing to support that implementation as Script-fu has been maintained over the
[Gimp-developer] Ang: Why GIMP is Inadequate
Dear developers. Firstly I would like to thank you warmly for a very good tool. I'm personally very happy with the user interface and don't see it inferior to Photoshop. I though would like to urge you to fix the 16 bit depth asap. Its true that many end figure don't have 16 bit/channel but before you get there its a VERY good thing to have. particularly for us who edit photos with a large dynamic range. Again many thanks for the good work, I truely belive so. Cheers Ronald Message: 1 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 01:39:31 +0100 From: Malix mal...@gmail.com Subject: [Gimp-developer] Why GIMP is Inadequate To: gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU Message-ID: AANLkTinrAma_7SrHaEZ=e-jpjozruse77tevf6lzh...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, on this blog there is a post about Gimp that generate a lot of user comments. http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-gimp-is-inadequate.html I think that someone of you that can replay to false things must post a replay. Bye Massimo ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Ang: Why GIMP is Inadequate
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:01 AM, ronald.arvids...@privat.utfors.se ronald.arvids...@privat.utfors.se wrote: snip I though would like to urge you to fix the 16 bit depth asap. Its true that many end figure don't have 16 bit/channel but before you get there its a VERY good thing to have. particularly for us who edit photos with a large dynamic range. GIMP developers have been painfully aware that this is a serious short-coming of the current architecture for the last decade. There is no need to reiterate this :). Besides what needs fixing is the 8bit per component limitation, 16 bits/component isn't how it will be fixed though. The internal processing will jump straight to 32bit floating point allowing HDR processing and other advantages. /Øyvind Kolås -- «The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed» -- William Gibson http://pippin.gimp.org/ http://ffii.org/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Possible Future of ScriptFu/TinyFu with R6RS/Racket
On 1/14/11, Kevin Cozens wrote: It is well known in that a lot of people know it exists. As for it being understood, not so much. I hate to tell you, but JS indeed is broadly known and used. At least half of Creative Suite is scripted in JS, and there is a whole industry around various JS based extensions and scripts for CS. I won't say how many times I heard users saying Oh my, I could write scripts in JS, but learning a new language just for GIMP? Thanks, no. only because I stopped counting few years ago. Just a little perspective from outside :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Possible Future of ScriptFu/TinyFu with R6RS/Racket
On 01/14/2011 12:29 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 1/14/11, Kevin Cozens wrote: It is well known in that a lot of people know it exists. As for it being understood, not so much. I hate to tell you, but JS indeed is broadly known and used. At least half of Creative Suite is scripted in JS, and there is a whole industry around various JS based extensions and scripts for CS. I won't say how many times I heard users saying Oh my, I could write scripts in JS, but learning a new language just for GIMP? Thanks, no. only because I stopped counting few years ago. Just a little perspective from outside :) This might be true for Scheme but Python is a lot more mainstream. And IMHO it's not as much a question of language than a question of API ( I write my Python scripts by looking at Scheme code docs). When your remove all things document-related from someone's alleged JS expertise, there isn't much left and that's all they would be able to reuse to write Gimps scripts in JS... Python is a rather nice and sound language, GIMP already has an interface for it, it only needs some improvements and a better/more up-to-date documentation... ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Possible Future of ScriptFu/TinyFu with R6RS/Racket
On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 05:17:45PM +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote: Von: Alexia Death alexiade...@gmail.com 2010/4/8 Aurimas Juška aurimas.ju...@gmail.com: I believe most users write script-fu scripts to automate commonly repeated steps. Therefore, it would be even better to complete action framework so that user could record commonly used action sequences and play them from GUI. I think script-fu would be ideal for such use. If you could record an action, and then optionally convert it to a full script a lot of convenience and ease of automation would be added. Writing out recorded actions in any language shouldn't be the problem... I think that this is one of the most wanted TODO for GIMP. If it is not a problem, why noone has planned to do it? It is not a rethoric question...I am really interested to hear the reasons behind this, apparently easy, uninplemended feature. I'm not a developer, so forgive me if I may post stupid questions.. -- Marco Ciampa ++ | Linux User #78271 | | FSFE fellow #364 | ++ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Possible Future of ScriptFu/TinyFu with R6RS/Racket
On Friday 14 January 2011 21:59:36 Marco Ciampa wrote: On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 05:17:45PM +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote: Writing out recorded actions in any language shouldn't be the problem... I think that this is one of the most wanted TODO for GIMP. If it is not a problem, why noone has planned to do it? As far as I (not a GIMP developer) know, it's not writing out actions that is a problem, but recording them. Preferably in a proper, clean, not too hackish way. And also as far as I know, it's not about missing plans, but about implementing it and the prerequisites. Cheers, Daniel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Possible Future of ScriptFu/TinyFu with R6RS/Racket
On 14.01.2011 21:59, Marco Ciampa wrote: On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 05:17:45PM +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote: Von: Alexia Death alexiade...@gmail.com I think script-fu would be ideal for such use. If you could record an action, and then optionally convert it to a full script a lot of convenience and ease of automation would be added. Writing out recorded actions in any language shouldn't be the problem... I think that this is one of the most wanted TODO for GIMP. If it is not a problem, why noone has planned to do it? Note the If you could record an action in Alexia's message. Recording is the hard part, actually. The Undo list only has images, not the commands and parameter values used for them. See the corresponding report: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51937 Martin wants to change the Undo system using the Command Pattern (see comment 43 of the above report, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_Pattern for an explanation of this pattern). Once we have that (or something equivalent), then writing out the commands in any programming language shouldn't be a problem anymore. HTH, Michael -- GIMP http://www.gimp.org | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Plug-ins http://registry.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Ang: Why GIMP is Inadequate
It's just Troy... again. :-) Once a year he writes about a free application that still isn't there (according to him). Some of the points point he expressed in the post may be valid (at least technically), but they're not exactly breaking news for anyone. Repeating year after year the same story won't help to make programs better. I remember myself being a jerk like that some years ago. :-p But finally I got how things work here and, although I'd love to see things happening faster, I truly appreciate the great work you guys are doing, and I don't care if I have to wait. Thanks a lot for working in this great program! ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why GIMP is Inadequate
I think that someone of you that can replay to false things must post a replay. Why bother? There are lots of false things in the Internet. --tml ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why GIMP is Inadequate
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 2:39 AM, Malix mal...@gmail.com wrote: http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-gimp-is-inadequate.html I think that someone of you that can replay to false things must post a replay. I personally have commented that blog post with what I feel, think and know. Everybody seemed to be too busy flaming to pay attention. No further reply has a point. Best, Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why GIMP is Inadequate
On 1/13/11, Malix wrote: on this blog there is a post about Gimp that generate a lot of user comments. http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-gimp-is-inadequate.html I think that someone of you that can replay to false things must post a replay. The fact that people don't understand what's happening in the project can only mean two things: 1. What's happening in the project is not communicated to users. 2. Some users don't care about what's communicated to them and stick to misconceptions they've grown to take for truth. The first is now being taken care of. As for the second, some people just can't be helped. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why GIMP is Inadequate
Hello .. a word, if I may.. even if I'm not a gimp dev.. The fact that people don't understand what's happening in the project can only mean two things: 1. What's happening in the project is not communicated to users. That may be very well the case But Every day, I run into people who say why photoshop? There's GIMP, a perfect substitute.. On some forums at least. Often, these people never got their hands on a program which supports adjustment layers, 16-bit handling, LAB-handling and so on. And this hasn't to be photoshop in the first place, by the way. So GIMP is sufficient to them, which is perfectly fine! BUT I DO understand the other side if they complain that these people don't have a clue, but they misinterpret the statements of these GIMP-users that the devs themselves (you) think about GIMP as a perfect photoshop replacement.. which it isn't (and the devs don't think it is..). So to speak, this special breed of GIMP-evangelists ( or OpenSource-evangelists, which you can find on any Linux forum... they are often like XX is a PERFECT substitute for closed-source YY, and if it isn't, then you don't need it in the first place..) do more harm than good. As far as I've come to understand it, GIMP has the VISION to become a full fledged, free pixel-based graphics editor. No more, no less. It's an unhappy fact that we (.. I'm hobby photographer myself) are waiting for some features for many years.. But that's how it is.. and there's no alternative for *NIX systems I can think of, with Krita heading more in the drawing-direction or whatever you might call it... But with a whole lot of people just whining and not contributing nothing will get better.. 2. Some users don't care about what's communicated to them and stick to misconceptions they've grown to take for truth. This is true, too. As always But I won't put all of the arguments aside. Keep up your good work everybody don't get frustrated! Regards, Oliver ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] combo boxes in osx
Thanks Sven and Ek I wasn't sure; I've been trying to use macports libraries as much as possible. So I've uninstalled all of the older gtks and x11s installed XQuartz 2.6.0 (xorg-server 1.9.3) then gtk2 /opt/local/bin/pkg-config --modversion gtk+-2.0 says 2.22.1 The problem persists, but I've noticed its not all combo boxes only those within dockable dialogues.The file type dropdown, pixel size and all of the combo boxes in the preferences panes work fine. I then set dyld to print libraries and found that then combo boxes within gtk-demo and pygtk-demo work fine (all started from the X11 xterm) and use dyld: loaded: /opt/local/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.0.dylib dyld: loaded: /opt/local/lib/libgdk-x11-2.0.0.dylib as does my compiled gimp I'll try to delve into the differences between the combos that work and those that don't All sugestions welcome! Thanks Sean On 10/01/2011 8:52PM, Sven Neumann wrote: On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 17:14 +, s...@startide.org wrote: Hi I've just got gimp to compile from git on OSX, I've just noticed that the combo boxes popup is displaying behind the dialogue panel so they are hidden. Thats every combo box. Are you running GTK+ on X11 or did you compile GTK+ with the Quartz backend? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] combo boxes in osx
The tooltips are also displaying in the background,behind the dialogues. Sean ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why GIMP is Inadequate
On 01/13/2011 01:39 AM, Malix wrote: Hi all, on this blog there is a post about Gimp that generate a lot of user comments. http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-gimp-is-inadequate.html I think that someone of you that can replay to false things must post a replay. Bye Massimo To me, most of his criticism is legitimate. I don't agree with all of it, but it's not all false. I don't see the point in treating him as hostile; it just help him prove his point that we can't take criticism. If we keep improving GIMP and stick to our plan, I am confident we will eventually address all of the shortcomings he points out. / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Nightly GIMP, GEGL, babl tarball builds ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why GIMP is Inadequate
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Martin Nordholts ense...@gmail.com wrote: On 01/13/2011 01:39 AM, Malix wrote: Hi all, on this blog there is a post about Gimp that generate a lot of user comments. http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-gimp-is-inadequate.html I think that someone of you that can replay to false things must post a replay. To me, most of his criticism is legitimate. I don't agree with all of it, but it's not all false. I don't see the point in treating him as hostile; it just help him prove his point that we can't take criticism. If we keep improving GIMP and stick to our plan, I am confident we will eventually address all of the shortcomings he points out. Most of the short-coming he is pointing out are things we are well aware of, and that the existing developers have invested copious amounts of our time towards fulfilling. We are well on the way towards having addressed quite a few of them, the post and many of the commenters are perpetuating opinions and attitudes that might cause even fewer people contributing; and existing volunteers of open source software to stop bother volunteering their time and knowledge towards creating tools for users without sense of neither tact nor gratiude. I am not at all amused. The only sane response to the shit storm he has caused is to be responsive and friendly towards people who seriously do contribute to GEGL and GIMPs future, on bugzilla, mailinglists and irc. /Øyvind K. -- «The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed» -- William Gibson http://pippin.gimp.org/http://ffii.org/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] translate menu mod
On Tue, 2011-01-11 at 15:36 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 1/11/11, Alexia Death wrote: anything up. If you use strings that have translations in their original location, you may even get translation working, tho Im not sure how script-fu and localization interact specially in regard to lables. Checboxes and suchlike in FX Foundry scripts dialogs are partly translated, because some messages ara translated in po-script-fu/*.po. Why doesn't FX Foundry install its own po files in its own translation domain? Script-Fu has support for registering an additional translation domain. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] combo boxes in osx
On Tue, 2011-01-11 at 14:41 +0700, Ek kian wrote: i also experience this on OSX 10.6.2, i use GIMP 2.6.8 compiled with GTK-OSX (http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/). but for GIMP from http://gimp.lisanet.de, it working ok and i think it using X11. i prefer using GIMP with GTK-OSX because it using Global Menu and using OSX Native UI.Regards, You can compile a more recent version of GIMP and GTK+ on Quartz using Macports. Just make sure you compile the +no_x11+quartz variant of GIMP and all the libraries. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Why GIMP is Inadequate
Fortunatly last commets are all pro gimp made by some professionals. This is what I like to hear. Øyvind you can be more happy now :) I just use Gimp for a little photoretouch and I can not really answar to people that point out a missing feature, I also never use photoshop and can compare it with Gimp. The only things I know is that for my little needs gimp is enough contrary is also too much. Massimo 2011/1/13 Øyvind Kolås pip...@gimp.org: On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Martin Nordholts ense...@gmail.com wrote: On 01/13/2011 01:39 AM, Malix wrote: Hi all, on this blog there is a post about Gimp that generate a lot of user comments. http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-gimp-is-inadequate.html I think that someone of you that can replay to false things must post a replay. To me, most of his criticism is legitimate. I don't agree with all of it, but it's not all false. I don't see the point in treating him as hostile; it just help him prove his point that we can't take criticism. If we keep improving GIMP and stick to our plan, I am confident we will eventually address all of the shortcomings he points out. Most of the short-coming he is pointing out are things we are well aware of, and that the existing developers have invested copious amounts of our time towards fulfilling. We are well on the way towards having addressed quite a few of them, the post and many of the commenters are perpetuating opinions and attitudes that might cause even fewer people contributing; and existing volunteers of open source software to stop bother volunteering their time and knowledge towards creating tools for users without sense of neither tact nor gratiude. I am not at all amused. The only sane response to the shit storm he has caused is to be responsive and friendly towards people who seriously do contribute to GEGL and GIMPs future, on bugzilla, mailinglists and irc. /Øyvind K. -- «The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed» -- William Gibson http://pippin.gimp.org/ http://ffii.org/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
