Re: Needed: A calculus of pleasure and pain.

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 8:07 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg Fortunately or unfortunately, capitalism is Darwinism, pure and simple. So it can prepare for a better future, although it can be painful at present. My own take on this is that there needs to be a calculus of pleasure and pain. Jeremy B

Re: science only works with half a brain

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 8:14 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Objective things are things that can be measured (are extended) and so are quantitative. Numbers can apply. Science applies. Computers can deal with them. Subjective things are inextended and so cannot be measured directly, at least, n

Re: Qualitative calculations with binary numbers

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 8:40 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal IMHO in Platonia (the Eternal) all logical statements must always be either true or false forever. However, in this everyday world, where time is a factor, such necessary logical statements become contingent, and may only sometimes be tr

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 9:04 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Alberto G. Corona That's why I stick to orthodoxy and the creeds. Hard to go wrong that way. Hi Roger, But you do so at the real risk of ossification. You stop asking questions, thinking that "I know all that can be known". This becomes "fear

Re: Why the supreme monad is necessary in Leibniz's universe

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 11:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 Sep 2012, at 13:44, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal BRUNO: Matter is what is not determined, and thus contingent indeed, at its very roots, like W and M in a self-duplication experiment, or like, plausibly when looking at a photon t

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 11:53 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Stephen P. King mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote: > Godel numberings are not unique. True, there are a infinite number of ways you could do Godel numbering. Hi John, Yes, but my point her

Re: science only works with half a brain

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 12:36 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Stephen P. King mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote: I contend that universality is the independence of computations to any particular machine but there must be at least one physical system th

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 12:42 PM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Stephen P. King mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote: > A have to side a bit with John here as the "truthfulness" of a concept is different from the "meaningfulness". Yes

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 1:10 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/14/2012 6:10 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: The "evidence" has strong indications of being manipulated for the purpose of a political agenda. It is certainly cherry-picked by minions of the fossil fuel industry. I would agree with

Re: Needed: A calculus of pleasure and pain.

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 1:50 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2012 12:33:45 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 9/14/2012 8:07 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg Fortunately or unfortunately, capitalism is Darwinism, pure and simple. So it can prepare for a

Re: questions on machines, belief, awareness, and knowledge

2012-09-14 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/14/2012 2:56 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Sep 2012, at 15:41, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/14/2012 4:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Brian, On 13 Sep 2012, at 22:04, Brian Tenneson wrote: Bruno, You use B as a predicate symbol for "belief" I think. I use for the modal u

Re: questions on machines, belief, awareness, and knowledge

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/15/2012 4:11 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 02:55:17AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: Dear Bruno, Could you elaborate on what your definition of "a digital machine" is? Anything Turing emulable. Dear Bruno, OK. But you do understand that this

Re: imaginary numbers in comp

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/15/2012 8:44 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I believe that all or much of the brain calculations are done aurally, phonetically. That has to be since we have to be able to understand and create vocal language. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <mailto:rclo...@verizon.net>

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/15/2012 8:52 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I seem to have-- whoops-- totally misread him. Logical dyslexia ? Hi Roger, Good catch! Yeah, my dyslexia distorts things in a weird "telephone game" way... His first sentence is correct: "Conscious e

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/15/2012 8:57 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Faith is merely trust. I could have faith in a doorknob. But I wouldn't try faith in Satan. Even the doorknob would work to some extent, for trust opens you up to authority, to submission, and submission is the meat and potato

Re: science only works with half a brain

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
f it. On 9/15/2012 9:00 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King My stance there is absolutely anti-materialist. Where do you see a materialistic statement ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <mailto:rclo...@verizon.net> 9/15/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/15/2012 9:12 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King And then there is Leibniz's identity of indiscernibles, identity there meaning that you only need one of them, throw the rest away. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <mailto:rclo...@verizon.net> 9/15/2012 Leibniz would say,

Re: Miraculous new invention.

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
2012-09-14, 13:10:59 *Subject:* Re: victims of faith On 9/14/2012 6:10 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: > The "evidence" has strong indications of being manipulated for the purpose of a > political agenda. It is certainly cherry-picked by minions of the fos

Re: Needed: A calculus of pleasure and pain.

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/15/2012 9:35 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Alberto G. Corona At the heart of a market economy (which has existed since the cave man), there is a fundamental freedom, you can buy or sell if the price is right, where price = value = what you are willing to pay or sell for. So the market is basi

Re: Needed: A calculus of pleasure and pain.

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/15/2012 8:32 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It's doubtful that there has ever been such a pristine market. The basic exchange between free agents is in all real cases weighted by those interests which control and manipulate the market. Look at how Microsoft created their monopoly. It made crapp

Re: Thorium!

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 12:20 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Sep 15 meekerdb > wrote: > in the present case there is no mystery about where the CO2 comes from and whether it's a natural cycle - it's us. Probably, but I'm not terribly concerned about it, the increase in

Re: Before the automobile: Reconstructed global temperature over the past 420,000 years

2012-09-15 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/15/2012 11:16 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: That should have happened from the get go (thorium reactors), except that a bomb cannot be made from thorium. Hi Richard, I noticed that as well. It seems that the more uses something has the more likely it is to happen. On Sat, Sep 15, 201

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 8:26 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Now I see your problem with Chalmers. It seems to be too sweeping a remark, but Leibniz would agree. because God, who is the supreme monad, causes all to happen. Mind is the ruling power. As I say below, "If there's no God,

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 8:31 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Not sure I understand your objection, but faith, being subjective (hence personal) is at least to first order principally in one individual. At the same time, however, since Mind is nonlocal, there has to be some spillover from other

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 8:31 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Not sure I understand your objection, but faith, being subjective (hence personal) is at least to first order principally in one individual. Dear Roger, There is more to say! At the same time, however, since Mind is nonlocal

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 8:34 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Leibniz was not a solipsist, since he took it for granted that the world out there was actually there. If a tree fell in a forest and nobody heard it, it still would have fallen. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/16/2012 Leibniz

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 8:39 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King The other minds problem ("How do I know that there are other minds ?") is indeed an impossible to crack nut if you are a solipsist. So solipsim is perhaps the only philiosophy impossible to disprove. Or prove, I think. Leibn

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 8:42 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, September 15, 2012 6:21:14 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 2:55 AM, Craig Weinberg > wrote: > What you think third party observable behavior means is the set of all > properties which are externally

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 8:45 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King My take on the meaning of "knowledge of things unseen" is knowledge of what is invisible at the moment. Hi Roger, I agree with this definition. It is equivalent to mine. What we must understand is that "at

Re: science only works with half a brain

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 8:52 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Mereology seems to be something like Spinoza's metaphysics, that there is just one stuff in the universe and that stuff is God. So there is just one material. Hi Roger, Yes. Each of these philosophers focused on diff

Re: Before the automobile: Reconstructed global temperature over thepast 420,000 years

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 8:55 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I ALSO THINK WE SHOULD LOOK INTO THORIUM REACTORS BUT THERE ARE MANY DOUBTERS (CERTAINLY GREENIES AMONG THEM) THAT THEY WOULD WORK. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <mailto:rclo...@verizon.net> 9/16/2012 Leibniz would sa

Re: Bruno's Restaurant

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 9:29 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Background: After refusing to serve Bruno's brother in law with the simulated brain at my restaurant, I decide to make peace by inviting myself to go along with Brother in law B1ll to his favorite restaurant. "It's the best in the city!", says B1ll.

Re: Alice and Wittgenstein: Materialism, Functionalism, and Comp

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 12:34 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Craig, You may want to look at Galen Strawson, Selves: An Essay in Revisionary Metaphysics He proves that selves exist. Interestingly enough he does it based on the materialist framework. p. 11 “For the moment, though, the brief is to show that s

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 12:35 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Hi Stephan, I would like to quibble about your statement: "For God, all things are given but once and there is no need to "compute the relations" . in terms of the OMEGA Point (OP). Hi Richard, A good friend of mine (who I was just talking to

Re: Before the automobile: Reconstructed global temperature over the past 420,000 years

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 12:43 PM, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 1:44 AM, meekerdb > wrote: > In fact it [CO2] has been less than half the current level during the last 600 thousand years There have been at least 4 times in the last 600 thousand years when

Re: Before the automobile: Reconstructed global temperature over thepast 420,000 years

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 12:43 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 16.09.2012 18:29 Stephen P. King said the following: On 9/16/2012 8:55 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I ALSO THINK WE SHOULD LOOK INTO THORIUM REACTORS BUT THERE ARE MANY DOUBTERS (CERTAINLY GREENIES AMONG THEM) THAT THEY WOULD WORK

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 12:49 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, September 16, 2012 12:13:57 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 9/16/2012 8:42 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, September 15, 2012 6:21:14 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: Moreover, this set has subsets, and w

Re: Alice and Wittgenstein: Materialism, Functionalism, and Comp

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 2:42 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 16.09.2012 19:03 Craig Weinberg said the following: On Sunday, September 16, 2012 12:34:47 PM UTC-4, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Craig, You may want to look at Galen Strawson, Selves: An Essay in Revisionary Metaphysics He proves that selves exist.

Re: science only works with half a brain

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 3:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Why does a physical system have to be non-invertible? My understanding is that current physical laws imply that systems are invertible. Hi Jason, Say hello to the "problem of time". -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw

Re: science only works with half a brain

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 3:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Where is our universe located? What could its location be relative to? That question presupposes that there is a large universe that this one is embedded into and that it is possible to define both coordinate maps from

Re: science only works with half a brain

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 3:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Yes, but note that even in the case of a purely abstract mathematical universe, like a Hilbert space, we use a coordinate system and sets of maps to relate the relations of where "things" are in the space of the universe. Sure, but my p

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 3:12 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Sep 2012, at 13:36, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal All love, all truth, all beauty necessarily comes from God (Platonia's All). So if you can feel any of those, there's your experience. Yes. But with comp there is a sense to say that

Re: Prime Numbers

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 3:43 PM, Rex Allen wrote: It seems to me that numbers are based on our ability to judge relative magnitudes: "Which is bigger, which is closer, which is heavier, etc." Many animals have this ability - called numeracy. Humans differ only in the degree to which it is developed, and

Re: science only works with half a brain

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 6:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 16, 2012, at 5:00 PM, "Stephen P. King" wrote: On 9/16/2012 3:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Why does a physical system have to be non-invertible? My understanding is that current physical laws imply that systems are invertible.

Re: science only works with half a brain

2012-09-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/16/2012 6:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 16, 2012, at 5:00 PM, "Stephen P. King" wrote: On 9/16/2012 3:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Why does a physical system have to be non-invertible? My understanding is that current physical laws imply that systems are invertible.

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-17 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/17/2012 9:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Forgive me if I bring up Leibniz again, but to my mind he gives the most thorough descriptions as to how the world works. And so logical that you can figure out many things on your own. Dear Roger, I too have found Leibniz

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-17 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/17/2012 8:08 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Monads are not rigidly separated. So change in one mind is reflected in all, the extent being how capable the others are of reading the content and their similarity to the subject. Dear Roger, Your defiction is what we get if we

Re: science only works with half a brain

2012-09-17 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/17/2012 8:47 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/substance/ " Descartes believed in only TWO kinds of substance: material body, which is defined by extension, and mental substance, which is defined by thought, which, in this context, is mor

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-17 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/17/2012 8:58 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King The two words are commonly confused. Faith is wordless trust, personal and interior. It is in the heart. Beliefs are public expressions of that faith and its object, and a whole lot more, and are thus in words. So it is in the head

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-17 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/17/2012 8:59 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King The physical is, and only is, what you can measure. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <mailto:rclo...@verizon.net> 9/17/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything cou

Re: Bruno's Restaurant

2012-09-17 Thread Stephen P. King
ages that we might have of it in our minds are mere simulations. Craig is diving deep into this idea and looking at it "from the inside" and reporting to us his observations. On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:32 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/16/2012 9:29 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Bac

Re: Bruno's Restaurant

2012-09-17 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/17/2012 5:41 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/17/2012 1:20 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: Stephen - the Matrix video is a faithful interpretation of comp, but Craig's story is not, unless he includes the crucial narrative - that o

Re: Bruno's Restaurant

2012-09-18 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/18/2012 12:25 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Terren, "Comp is false" is too strong. He is explaining how comp is "incomplete". The movie graph argument is flawed. I'm not sure what that means, that comp

Re: IMHO conscousness is an activity not a thing

2012-09-18 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/18/2012 6:07 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg IMHO conscousness is not really anything in itself, it is what the brain makes of its contents that the self perceives. The self is intelligence, which is able to focus all pertinent brain activity to a unified point. Roger Clough, rcl

Re: Monad mereology. Can there be monads within monads ?

2012-09-18 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/18/2012 9:03 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Thinking about mereologyand Leibniz... Since a monad is a whole, it can't have parts, so you can't break it into parts. That's in fact the definition of a monad, a whole without parts. So while some, including Le

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-18 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/18/2012 9:16 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King The supreme monad (God) does everything (God causes all to happen) while the monads, being entirely passive, can do nothing except display the changes that God made for them as what is called their individual "perceptions"

Re: Thorium!

2012-09-18 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/18/2012 12:44 PM, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 1:59 AM, meekerdb > wrote: > I think most reactors using Hastelloy plumbing (one of several nickel alloys). The containment vessels are steel and concrete. They differ a lot depending on

Re: IMHO conscousness is an activity not a thing

2012-09-18 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/18/2012 5:17 PM, John Mikes wrote: Ha ha: so not consciousness is the 'thing', but 'intelligence'? or is this one also a function (of the brain towards the self?) who is the self? how does the brain *_DO _**_something_ * (as a homunculus?) on its own? Any suggestions? John M Hi John,

Re: Prime Numbers

2012-09-19 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/19/2012 8:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Sep 2012, at 18:02, meekerdb wrote: On 9/18/2012 8:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Sep 2012, at 22:25, meekerdb wrote: But did anybody think z' = z^2 + c was interesting before that? Yes. This was known by people like Fatou and Julia, i

Re: Prime Numbers

2012-09-19 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/19/2012 2:39 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Dear Bruno, Your remarks raise an interesting question: Could it be that both the object and the means to generate (or perceive) it are of equal importance ontologically? Yes. It comes from the embedding of the subject in the objects, that any m

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-19 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/19/2012 4:27 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:14:17 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Craig Weinberg > wrote: >> No, the paper does *not* assume that there is a set of functions that >> if reproduced will will cause c

Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
Any one up to explaining this: http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send e

Re: Life requires autonomy

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 7:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Sep 2012, at 12:54, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb I would say that one necessary ability for life is for an organism to be able to separate itself off from its environment and thus to be able to make its own decisions without outside interfer

Re: Life requires autonomy

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 6:54 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb I would say that one necessary ability for life is for an organism to be able to separate itself off from its environment and thus to be able to make its own decisions without outside interference. In other words, to be autonomous. Materiali

Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 7:15 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Collective consciousness Interesting. What links the bees together such that a "collective" is possible? On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Any one up to explaining this: http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/new

Re: the lost seven cities of gold.

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 9:08 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg , Because consciousness at the most is not physical and at the least it is a verb rather than a noun, that fellow below, in his search for consciousness, is like the early spanish explorers searching for the lost seven cities of gold.

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 11:02 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp. If the version of comp we are discussing here is independent of physics, then shouldn't it be possible for us to program universal machines using only empty space? Length can be quantified, s

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 11:48 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Craig Weinberg mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com>> wrote: Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp. If the version of comp we are discussing here is independent of physics, then shouldn't it b

Re: Bruno's Restaurant

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 12:05 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 11:55:27 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Sep 2012, at 16:47, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 10:14:25 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Sep 2012, at 14:27, Crai

Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 12:09 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/20/2012 12:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Any one up to explaining this: http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html What's to explain? The bees found the shortest route. Do you suffer from the misconception that NP-hard = inso

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 12:14 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 11:48:15 AM UTC-4, Jason wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Craig Weinberg > wrote: Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp. If the version of comp we are discussing

Re: the "nothing but" fallacy.

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 12:17 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/20/2012 2:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Sep 2012, at 03:09, meekerdb wrote: On 9/19/2012 5:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Also, the concept of a super intelligent entity torturing someone may be almost contradictory, for they may realize the identit

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 12:26 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Sep 2012, at 17:02, Craig Weinberg wrote: Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp. If the version of comp we are discussing here is independent of physics, then shouldn't it be possible for us to program universal machines u

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 12:55 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:19:30 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg Consciousness requires an autonomous self. Human consciousness requires an autonomous human self, but it is not necessarily true that consciousness require

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 1:16 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 12:26:07 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Sep 2012, at 17:02, Craig Weinberg wrote: > Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp. > > If the version of comp we are discussing here is

Re: Faith, hope and love

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 5:25 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:55:10 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg You can see from all of the flack I get here that being a believer, since you believe in something seemingly to be nonsense (especially to the scienti

Re: Bruno's Restaurant

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 9:45 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 9:23:08 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 9/20/2012 12:05 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: snip Hi Craig, You need to show how we can get some kind of closure in the map for this to work... O

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 9:49 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Physical computers are assembled substances which exhibit exceptionally normative, controllable, and observable behaviors. Craig To understand a thing is to control a thing. -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outla

Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 9:50 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/20/2012 6:25 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/20/2012 12:09 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/20/2012 12:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Any one up to explaining this: http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/38864.html What's to explain? The bees

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 10:04 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 9:49:58 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 9/20/2012 12:55 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 7:19:30 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg Consciousness re

Re: Bees solve NP-Hard problems! How?

2012-09-20 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/20/2012 11:27 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/20/2012 8:17 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/20/2012 9:50 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/20/2012 6:25 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/20/2012 12:09 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/20/2012 12:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Any one up to explaining this: http

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/21/2012 1:19 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Stephen P. King mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote: On 9/20/2012 11:48 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Craig Weinberg mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/21/2012 4:10 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 21 Sep 2012, at 03:28, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/20/2012 12:14 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 11:48:15 AM UTC-4, Jason wrote: It's not doing the computations that is hard, the computations are al

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/21/2012 4:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Sep 2012, at 19:16, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 20, 2012 12:26:07 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Sep 2012, at 17:02, Craig Weinberg wrote: > Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp. >

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/21/2012 4:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But the numbers build an "arithmetic body" The numbers arithmetically dream of a non arithmetic body. and then populate a space with multiple copies of it... so that they can "implement" the UD. No, they are implemented by the UD, which exists l

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/21/2012 4:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And computationalists are cool as they don't think twice before giving the restaurant menu to the puppet who asks politely. They don't judge people from their religion, skin color, clothes, or if made of wood, or metal or flesh, as long as they behav

Re: Life requires autonomy

2012-09-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/21/2012 4:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 Sep 2012, at 21:46, Stephen P. King wrote: snip Dear Bruno, Did you mean "both the 3p-self and the non-nameable 1p-self"? How does the 1p-self name itself? It cannot. In logic "name" is for definite description.

Re: Numbers in Space

2012-09-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/21/2012 11:05 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sep 21, 2012, at 6:55 AM, "Stephen P. King" <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote: On 9/21/2012 1:19 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Stephen P. King mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote:

Re: What is 'Existence'?

2012-09-22 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/22/2012 5:25 AM, Roger Clough wrote: ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal I think we should only use the word "exists" only when we are referring to physical existence. Dear Roger, I think the exact opposite. We should NEVER use the word exists in reference to what is merely the subject of human

Re: Does Platonia exist ?

2012-09-22 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/22/2012 5:34 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Alberto G. Corona If we can define what we are talking about, most of our problems will be solved. That is why I believe we ought to use the Descartes-Leibniz definition of physical existence as that which is in spacetime (is extended). Thus the bra

Re: On Causation with Mind and brain as apples and oranges

2012-09-22 Thread Stephen P. King
the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-21, 13:03:13 Subject: Re: Mind and brain as apples and oranges On Friday, September 21, 2012 11:48:34 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King and all The

Re: Prime Numbers

2012-09-22 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/22/2012 7:32 AM, Roger Clough wrote: How could mathematics be fiction ? If so, then we could simply say that 2+2=5 because it's saturday. How could we have a world we many minds can, on rare occasions, come to complete agreement if that where the case? Perhaps it is true that 2+2=4 because

Re: What is 'Existence'?

2012-09-22 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/22/2012 3:52 PM, John Mikes wrote: Dear Stephen and Bruno: /*(BRUNO: Hmm... Then numbers lives, but with comp, only universal or Lobian numbers can be said reasonably enough to be living. You might go to far. Even in Plato, the No? content (all the ideas) is richer that its living part. I

Re: Prime Numbers

2012-09-23 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/23/2012 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Sep 2012, at 22:10, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/22/2012 7:32 AM, Roger Clough wrote: How could mathematics be fiction ? If so, then we could simply say that 2+2=5 because it's saturday. How could we have a world we many minds can, on

Re: What is 'Existence'?

2012-09-23 Thread Stephen P. King
on whatsoever... 2012/9/23 Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> On 22 Sep 2012, at 20:05, Stephen P. King wrote: With comp, all the exists comes from the "ExP(x)" use in arithmetic, and their arithmetical epistemological version, like []Ex[]P(x), or []<

Re: What is 'Existence'?

2012-09-24 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/24/2012 6:46 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Hi Stephen, Any idea about whatever is outside of the mind (noumena, thing it itself as Kant named it)before it is experienced as phenomena is and will remain speculative forever. By definition. But this does not prohibit our speculations...

Re: What is 'Existence'?

2012-09-24 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/24/2012 8:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King What's in a name ? If you have a better word for what I have been calling physical existence, please say it. "Actuality". -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- Yo

Re: On Causation with Mind and brain as apples and oranges

2012-09-24 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/24/2012 8:12 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I have trouble conceiving an isomorphism (or anything comparative) between something that is there and something that is not. The something that is not there is not the absence of the thing that was, since it has no shape, no location

Re: Stephen: Existence is what is actual

2012-09-24 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/24/2012 9:06 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Yes, "actual" is much better than "exist". Good. I suppose I could say I have actual thoughts, but that's I believe a misnaming. There is a similar or even identical idea that goes back Aristotle.

Re: questions on machines, belief, awareness, and knowledge

2012-09-24 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/24/2012 9:34 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb The computer can mechanically prove something, but it cannot know that it did so. It cannot sit back with a beer and muse over how smart it is. Hi Roger, What you are considering that a computer does not have is the ability to model

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