Re: The hard problem of matter

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 6:15:18 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 30 Oct 2018, at 11:34, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:30:00 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:44:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 30 Oct 2018, at 11:34, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:30:00 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:44:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 29 Oct 2018, at 12:04, Philip Thrift > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, Octobe

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 30 Oct 2018, at 10:30, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:44:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 29 Oct 2018, at 12:04, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 5:05:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 28 Oct 2018

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:30:00 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:44:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 29 Oct 2018, at 12:04, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 5:05:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>>

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:44:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 29 Oct 2018, at 12:04, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 5:05:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 28 Oct 2018, at 15:12, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 28

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 29 Oct 2018, at 12:04, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 5:05:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 28 Oct 2018, at 15:12, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 8:29:32 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 26 Oct 2018,

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 5:05:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 28 Oct 2018, at 15:12, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 8:29:32 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 26 Oct 2018, at 18:25, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, October 26,

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 28 Oct 2018, at 15:12, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 8:29:32 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 26 Oct 2018, at 18:25, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 9:50:13 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 25 Oct 2018,

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 8:29:32 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Oct 2018, at 18:25, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 9:50:13 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 25 Oct 2018, at 18:36, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, October 2

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 26 Oct 2018, at 18:25, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 9:50:13 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 25 Oct 2018, at 18:36, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 11:03:22 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> There was

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 12:36 PM Philip Thrift wrote: *>"2+2=4" is only true in the sense that there is a language that has been > created in which that sentence is labeled "true".* If there were not at least 2 physical things in existence it would be labeled neither true or false but gibberish

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 9:50:13 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 25 Oct 2018, at 18:36, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 11:03:22 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> >> There was no physics before writing, also; but there was a physical >> real

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 25 Oct 2018, at 20:05, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/25/2018 9:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 24 Oct 2018, at 03:22, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/23/2018 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 23 Oct 2018, at 04:30, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > >

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 25 Oct 2018, at 19:46, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/25/2018 9:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Now, when you say that there was no mathematics before writing, I am not >> sure. I think the incas have developed ways to compute (notably the position >> of the star in the sky) before w

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 25 Oct 2018, at 18:36, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 11:03:22 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > There was no physics before writing, also; but there was a physical reality > and a mathematical reality before human writing, and before humans, although

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 12:46:48 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/25/2018 9:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Now, when you say that there was no mathematics before writing, I am > > not sure. I think the incas have developed ways to compute (notably > > the position of the star in

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/25/2018 9:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Oct 2018, at 03:22, Brent Meeker wrote: On 10/23/2018 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Oct 2018, at 04:30, Brent Meeker wrote: On 10/22/2018 6:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The mathematical reality has noting to do with languages, ex

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/25/2018 9:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Now, when you say that there was no mathematics before writing, I am not sure. I think the incas have developed ways to compute (notably the position of the star in the sky) before writing. I think that arithmetic precede thought which precedes lan

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 11:03:22 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > There was no physics before writing, also; but there was a physical > reality and a mathematical reality before human writing, and before humans, > although this is metaphorical, as the arithmetical reality is out

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 24 Oct 2018, at 03:22, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/23/2018 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 23 Oct 2018, at 04:30, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/22/2018 6:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The mathematical reality has noting to do with languages, except that >>>

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 23 Oct 2018, at 19:40, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 11:23:22 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 23 Oct 2018, at 04:30, Brent Meeker > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 10/22/2018 6:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> The mathematical reality has noting

Re: The hard problem of matter

I already published this elsewhere. On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:22 PM Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 10/23/2018 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 23 Oct 2018, at 04:30, Brent Meeker wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/22/2018 6:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>> The mathematical reality has noting

Re: The hard problem of matter

Consciousness is IDENTITY like a fingerprint or voice print. Every consciousness is unique but each needs something to be conscious OF like a human body or perhaps a larger (virtual?) program (hologram?) It can be stored on a database. That's as far as I've got. On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:22 PM Bre

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/23/2018 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Oct 2018, at 04:30, Brent Meeker wrote: On 10/22/2018 6:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The mathematical reality has noting to do with languages, except that languages are needed if machine/people want to share the results of their exploratio

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 11:23:22 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > On 23 Oct 2018, at 04:30, Brent Meeker > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 10/22/2018 6:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> The mathematical reality has noting to do with languages, except that > languages are needed if m

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 11:13:52 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 22 Oct 2018, at 19:33, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 8:54:47 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 22 Oct 2018, at 14:38, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, October 2

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 23 Oct 2018, at 04:30, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/22/2018 6:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> The mathematical reality has noting to do with languages, except that >> languages are needed if machine/people want to share the results of their >> exploration. > > So how do you prove

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 22 Oct 2018, at 19:33, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 8:54:47 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 22 Oct 2018, at 14:38, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 6:05:41 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 21 Oct 2018,

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/22/2018 6:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The mathematical reality has noting to do with languages, except that languages are needed if machine/people want to share the results of their exploration. So how do you prove theorems without a language? Brent -- You received this message beca

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 8:54:47 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 22 Oct 2018, at 14:38, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 6:05:41 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 21 Oct 2018, at 13:55, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> It is generally not co

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 22 Oct 2018, at 14:38, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 6:05:41 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 21 Oct 2018, at 13:55, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: > >> >> It is generally not considered applying Rorty and or Derrida to mathematical >> language, but mat

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 6:05:41 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 21 Oct 2018, at 13:55, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > It is generally not considered applying Rorty and or Derrida to > mathematical language, but mathematics is a language* too, like English. > (or programming la

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 21 Oct 2018, at 15:40, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 21, 2018 at 7:57:02 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 21 Oct 2018, at 00:55, Brent Meeker > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/20/2018 3:29 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, October 20, 2018

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 21 Oct 2018, at 13:55, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 21, 2018 at 3:04:35 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 21 Oct 2018, at 06:47, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 5:55:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 10/20/2018 3:29

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Sunday, October 21, 2018 at 7:57:02 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 21 Oct 2018, at 00:55, Brent Meeker > > wrote: > > > > On 10/20/2018 3:29 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 2:51:30 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/20/2018 11:24 AM, Philip Thri

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Sunday, October 21, 2018 at 3:04:35 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 21 Oct 2018, at 06:47, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 5:55:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/20/2018 3:29 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, October 20, 2018

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 21 Oct 2018, at 06:47, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 5:55:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 10/20/2018 3:29 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 2:51:30 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 10/20/2018 11:24 AM, Philip Thri

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 21 Oct 2018, at 00:55, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/20/2018 3:29 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 2:51:30 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 10/20/2018 11:24 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 10:33:04 AM UTC-

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 20 Oct 2018, at 21:51, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/20/2018 11:24 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 10:33:04 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 10/19/2018 11:32 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker > >> > wrote:

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 20 Oct 2018, at 17:33, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/19/2018 11:32 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I work with people who studied religion all the times. You seem unaware

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 20 Oct 2018, at 09:23, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 1:32:25 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> I work with people who studied rel

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 5:55:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/20/2018 3:29 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 2:51:30 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/20/2018 11:24 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 10:33:

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 2:23 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>If not by behavior then how do you determine intelligence in others? > > > >I can’t, > Baloney. You can and you have judged the intelligence in others every single day you've been alive. > >*Trump might fake its stupidity,* > Then he's

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/20/2018 3:29 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 2:51:30 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/20/2018 11:24 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 10:33:04 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/19/2018 11:32 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 2:51:30 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/20/2018 11:24 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 10:33:04 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/19/2018 11:32 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker wr

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/20/2018 11:24 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 10:33:04 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/19/2018 11:32 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker > wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 10:33:04 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/19/2018 11:32 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>> I work with people who studied religion all the

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/19/2018 11:32 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker wrote: On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I work with people who studied religion all the times. You seem unaware that we can doubt Aristotle theology. You seem unaware that there is not such t

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/19/2018 11:31 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: No physicists tells his student to go read Einstein to learn relativity or to read Heisenberg to learn quantum mechanics. That is false. Most scientist, in both logic and physics encourage the reading of the original papers. There are good selecte

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 1:32:25 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> I work with people who studied religion all the times. You seem unaware > that we can doubt Aris

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:50, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/19/2018 12:09 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> The same way they judge anyone's intelligence, by their behavior. Don't >>> you give tests to your students? Do you never take tests? >> >> I never judge the intelligence from the resu

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:43, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> I work with people who studied religion all the times. You seem unaware that >> we can doubt Aristotle theology. > > You seem unaware that there is not such thing. Your "Aristotle theolo

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 19 Oct 2018, at 23:40, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For example, in the year 400 Hypatia was teaching both the Mathematics of Diophantus, and the theology of Plotinus. That was very common. >>> >>> Are we supposed to take these earl

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 19 Oct 2018, at 21:39, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 3:09 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > I never judge the intelligence from the result of test. > > If not by behavior then how do you determine intelligence in others? I can’t, unless locally

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/19/2018 12:09 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The same way they judge anyone's intelligence, by their behavior.  Don't you give tests to your students?  Do you never take tests? I never judge the intelligence from the result of test. I can judge competence, but that is not intelligence, whic

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I work with people who studied religion all the times. You seem unaware that we can doubt Aristotle theology. You seem unaware that there is not such thing.  Your "Aristotle theology" is a straw man you invented to beat with stick labelled "prim

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/19/2018 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For example, in the year 400 Hypatia was teaching both the Mathematics of Diophantus, and the theology of Plotinus. That was very common. Are we supposed to take these early thinkers as definitive? I'm with JKC on this.  We've come a long way si

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 3:09 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *I never judge the intelligence from the result of test. * If not by behavior then how do you determine intelligence in others? You must have some way because I am certain at some point in your life you have met people you consider intellig

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 19 Oct 2018, at 00:56, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > From: Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> >>> On 16 Oct 2018, at 03:50, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> The "separation" of science from religion was the invention of science > > Quite. What follows fr

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 18 Oct 2018, at 21:29, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/18/2018 6:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 16 Oct 2018, at 19:28, John Clark >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:05 PM Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 19 Oct 2018, at 00:20, John Clark wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 9:21 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > the idea that there are moment where we are not conscious is very natural, > > but it is not a fact, it is a theory, > > Then can you name something, an

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 18 Oct 2018, at 21:24, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/18/2018 6:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 16 Oct 2018, at 03:50, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/15/2018 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 11 Oct 2018, at 19:26, John

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:08:10 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 18 Oct 2018, at 17:26, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 9:00:21 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 17 Oct 2018, at 00:38, Brent Meeker wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/16/2018 11:58

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 18 Oct 2018, at 17:26, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 9:00:21 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 17 Oct 2018, at 00:38, Brent Meeker > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/16/2018 11:58 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 1

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 8:16:06 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 16 Oct 2018, at 03:50, Brent Meeker > > wrote: > > > The "separation" of science from religion was the invention of > science > > > Not at all. Science is born with Plato, who understood that for having a

Re: The hard problem of matter

From: *Bruno Marchal* mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> On 16 Oct 2018, at 03:50, Brent Meeker > wrote: The "separation" of science from religion was the invention of science Quite. What follows from Bruno is just Humpty Dumpty history and philosophy. Bruce Not at all

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 9:21 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: *> the idea that there are moment where we are not conscious is very > natural, but it is not a fact, it is a theory,* Then can you name something, anything, that *IS* a fact and not a theory? > *probably selected by evolution,* Evolution

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/18/2018 6:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Oct 2018, at 19:28, John Clark > wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:05 PM Brent Meeker > wrote: >> you know for a fact you're not conscious all the time, you know

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/18/2018 6:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Oct 2018, at 10:00, Philip Thrift > wrote: On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 8:50:57 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: The "separation" of science from religion was the invention of science as a way of knowing wha

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/18/2018 6:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Oct 2018, at 03:50, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 10/15/2018 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Oct 2018, at 19:26, John Clark > wrote: On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 12:15 PM Bruno Marcha

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 9:00:21 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 17 Oct 2018, at 00:38, Brent Meeker > > wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2018 11:58 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 1:01:40 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/16/2018 1:14 AM, Philip T

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 17 Oct 2018, at 00:38, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2018 11:58 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 1:01:40 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 10/16/2018 1:14 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> But here is the thesis I think of the experience-oriented (v

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 16 Oct 2018, at 20:56, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2018 6:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> As long as there is no evidence for a notion of primary matter (à-la >> Aristotle), the idea of a primitively material universe, or ontological >> universe is premature. > > How can there

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 16 Oct 2018, at 20:01, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2018 1:14 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> But here is the thesis I think of the experience-oriented (vs. >> information-oriented) paradigm*: Experience cannot be represented: It does >> not exist outside of its material instantiati

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 16 Oct 2018, at 19:56, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2018 1:00 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 8:50:57 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> The "separation" of science from religion was the invention of science as a >> way of knowing what was fact a

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 16 Oct 2018, at 19:28, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:05 PM Brent Meeker > wrote: > > > > > >> you know for a fact you're not conscious all the time, you know you're not > >> conscious when you're sleeping or under anesthesia or bef

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 16 Oct 2018, at 10:00, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 8:50:57 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > The "separation" of science from religion was the invention of science as a > way of knowing what was fact and what was superstition. Science was testing > beliefs

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 16 Oct 2018, at 09:54, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 8:36:01 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 1:17 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >As I have proposed, information processing alone will not lead to > >consciousness. Experience processing

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 15 Oct 2018, at 16:34, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 10:53 PM Brent Meeker > wrote: > > > The reason for not doubting that other human beings are conscious is that > > (1) I am conscious and > > But you know for a fact you're not conscious al

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 16 Oct 2018, at 03:50, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/15/2018 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 11 Oct 2018, at 19:26, John Clark >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 12:15 PM Bruno Marchal >> > wrote: >>> >>>

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 12:56:56 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2018 1:00 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 8:50:57 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> The "separation" of science from religion was the invention of science as >> a way of knowing wha

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 12:19:35 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2018 9:55 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 5:43:51 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/16/2018 12:02 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 12:52:

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/16/2018 9:55 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 5:43:51 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2018 12:02 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 12:52:25 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2018 12:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote:

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 5:43:51 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2018 12:02 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 12:52:25 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/16/2018 12:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> Whatever one defines intelligence to be, for

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 6:13 PM Brent Meeker wrote: >>Nothing happened to them because neurons and hormones also have structure >> as do all complex objects, about the only things that don't (as far as we >> know) are electrons, positrons, photons, neutrinos and possibly quarks >> and Black Holes

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/16/2018 12:02 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 12:52:25 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2018 12:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: Whatever one defines intelligence to be, for something (or some /being/, as some might prefer) to be conscious (for those w

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/16/2018 11:58 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 1:01:40 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2018 1:14 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: But here is the thesis I think of the experience-oriented (vs. information-oriented) paradigm*: /Experience cannot be rep

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/16/2018 10:28 AM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:05 PM Brent Meeker > wrote: >> you know for a fact you're not conscious all the time, you know you're not conscious when you're sleeping or under anesthesia or before

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 12:52:25 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2018 12:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > Whatever one defines intelligence to be, for something (or some *being*, > as some might prefer) to be conscious (for those who think it is real) is > a more certain thing.

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 1:01:40 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2018 1:14 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > But here is the thesis I think of the experience-oriented (vs. > information-oriented) paradigm*: *Experience cannot be represented: It > does not exist outside of its material

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/16/2018 6:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: As long as there is no evidence for a notion of primary matter (à-la Aristotle), the idea of a primitively material universe, or ontological universe is premature. How can there be evidence for something being ontologically primitive except that

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/16/2018 1:14 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: But here is the thesis I think of the experience-oriented (vs. information-oriented) paradigm*: /Experience cannot be represented: It does not exist outside of its material instantiation./ But that's just an assertion that, not only am I giving up,

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/16/2018 1:00 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 8:50:57 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: The "separation" of science from religion was the invention of science as a way of knowing what was fact and what was superstition.  Science was testing beliefs and holding

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/16/2018 12:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: Whatever one defines intelligence to be, for something (or some /being/, as some might prefer) to be conscious (for those who think it is real)  is a more certain thing. Intelligence is something observable, as here: https://www.youtube.com/watc

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:05 PM Brent Meeker wrote: >> you know for a fact you're not conscious all the time, you know you're >> not conscious when you're sleeping or under anesthesia or before you were >> born and, although you don't know for certain, you probably suspect you >> won't be con

Re: The hard problem of matter

is relative to >>> some reality/computation(s). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> And consciousness is in fact more like hardware, because of its distinctly >>>> qualitative, non-structural properties. For this reason, consciou

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 10:49:44 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/15/2018 5:06 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 6:45:11 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/14/2018 11:13 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 9:53:07 PM

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 8:50:57 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > The "separation" of science from religion was the invention of science as > a way of knowing what was fact and what was superstition. Science was > testing beliefs and holding them only provisionally. > > Brent > > > They ha

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 8:36:01 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 1:17 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *>As I have proposed, information processing alone will not lead to >> consciousness. Experience processing >>

Re: The hard problem of matter

On 10/15/2018 5:06 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 6:45:11 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/14/2018 11:13 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 9:53:07 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/14/2018 2:48 PM, John Clark wrote:

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