Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

Dear MarkCC. Thank you for paying attention on my crackpottery article. I like your comment. Very like. ==. You say: Create a universe with no matter, a universe with different kinds of matter, a universe with 300 forces instead of the four that we see - and e and π won't change. =.. Now Euler's

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

Euler's Equation Crackpottery Feb 18 2013 Published by MarkCC under Bad Math, Bad Physics One of my twitter followers sent me an interesting piece of crackpottery. I debated whether to do anything with it. The thing about crackpottery is that it really needs to have some content. Total incoheren

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 15 Feb 2013, at 05:52, socra...@bezeqint.net wrote: The learned men confuse the mathematical tools with the physical reality and therefore we have math-physical fairy-tales. =. That happens too, and is of course even worst than confusing mathematical tools and the mathematical reality.

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

The learned men confuse the mathematical tools with the physical reality and therefore we have math-physical fairy-tales. =. On Feb 14, 5:39 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 14 Feb 2013, at 08:48, socra...@bezeqint.net wrote: > > > > > > >     Euler's Equation and the Reality of Nature. > > =. >

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 Telmo Menezes wrote: > there aren't as many "brain surgeon"-level fields that require maniacal > focus for competence as > people seem to think. I would maintain that for the last 200 years every major advance in science or mathematics has come from specialists. > The Moor

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 6:39 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 Telmo Menezes wrote: > >> > So far, nobody has been able to figure out a learning algorithm as >> > generic as the one our brains contains. > > > The developers of Watson have come very close to doing exactly that. What I

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 14 Feb 2013, at 08:48, socra...@bezeqint.net wrote: Euler's Equation and the Reality of Nature. =. Mr. Dexter Sinister wrote: ‘ I understand Euler's Identity, and I know what it means, and I know how to prove it, there's nothing particularly mystical about it, it just demonstrates that

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

Intuitive Understanding Of Euler’s Formula http://betterexplained.com/articles/intuitive-understanding-of-eulers-formula/#comment-190704 =…. On Feb 14, 8:48 am, "socra...@bezeqint.net" wrote: >      Euler's Equation and the Reality of Nature. > =. > Mr. Dexter Sinister  wrote: > ‘ I unders

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

Euler's Equation and the Reality of Nature. =. Mr. Dexter Sinister wrote: ‘ I understand Euler's Identity, and I know what it means, and I know how to prove it, there's nothing particularly mystical about it, it just demonstrates that exponential, trigonometric, and complex functions are rela

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 Telmo Menezes wrote: > So far, nobody has been able to figure out a learning algorithm as > generic as the one our brains contains. > The developers of Watson have come very close to doing exactly that. > > there is definitely room for generalists. > Then why don't family

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/13/2013 3:10 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: The main reason Watson and similar programs fail to have human like > intelligence is that they lack human like values and motivations True, but they could have generic intelligence -- the ability to learn something new in a new domain, just by being t

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 11:49 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 2/12/2013 2:40 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> I don't know what sort of computer your typed you post on but by 1997 >> standards it is almost certainly a supercomputer, probably the most powerful >> supercomputer in the world. I'll wager it wo

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/12/2013 4:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 5:49:04 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/12/2013 2:40 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I don't know what sort of computer your typed you post on but by 1997 standards it is almost certainly a supercomputer, pro

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 5:49:04 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > On 2/12/2013 2:40 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > I don't know what sort of computer your typed you post on but by 1997 >> standards it is almost certainly a supercomputer, probably the most >> powerful supercomputer in the world.

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/12/2013 2:40 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I don't know what sort of computer your typed you post on but by 1997 standards it is almost certainly a supercomputer, probably the most powerful supercomputer in the world. I'll wager it would take you less than five minutes to find and

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

Hi John, On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 7:53 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> So if Watson isn't intelligent he's something better than intelligent. >> >> > It is competent in jeopardy. >> > > And the enormously impressive thing about Watson is that unlike Ch

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> So if Watson isn't intelligent he's something better than intelligent. > > > It is competent in jeopardy. > And the enormously impressive thing about Watson is that unlike Chess Jeopardy is not a specialized game, you could get asked about anything

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 11 Feb 2013, at 18:30, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote > The Watson program is competent, but I doubt it makes sense to say it is intelligent. Just like with "God" and "atheist" it looks like we're back at the tired old game of redefining wor

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

The situation in ' philosophy of physics'. =. ‘ Suddenly I realized that a nagual did have one point to defend - in my opinion, a passionate defense for the 'description of the Eagle', and 'what the Eagle does'. "But what kind of a force would the Eagle be?" "I would not know how to answer th

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Monday, February 11, 2013 11:24:34 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 10 Feb 2013, at 23:16, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > What makes computers useful is that they have no capacity to object to > drudgery. That is the capacity which is inseparable from unconsciousness. > > > That is what sla

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/11/2013 9:30 AM, John Clark wrote: Watson can do even better than make sense out of intelligence, Watson can make concrete actions out of intelligence, among many other things Watson can move chess pieces around in such a way as to beat you or any other human in a game. Actually I'm not s

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote > The Watson program is competent, but I doubt it makes sense to say it is > intelligent. > Just like with "God" and "atheist" it looks like we're back at the tired old game of redefining words. Using the normal meaning of "intelligent" if so

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 10 Feb 2013, at 23:16, Craig Weinberg wrote: What makes computers useful is that they have no capacity to object to drudgery. That is the capacity which is inseparable from unconsciousness. That is what slaves are useful at. And that does not make slaves unconscious. It makes them onl

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 10 Feb 2013, at 19:38, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Consciousness might be the unconscious Okey dokey, and if you allow that X is not X you can prove or disprove anything you like. Please, quote the entire sentence. It was:

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Sunday, February 10, 2013 4:23:52 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> Why would being generated in a single moment through cell > >> fertilization have any bearing on consciousness? > > > > > > Because consciousness is a sing

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> Why would being generated in a single moment through cell >> fertilization have any bearing on consciousness? > > > Because consciousness is a singularity of perspective through time, or > rather through which time is created. That's not

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Sunday, February 10, 2013 12:15:00 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> You are convinced that computers and other machines > >> don't have consciousness, but you can't say what test you will apply > >> to them and see them fail.

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Consciousness might be the unconscious > Okey dokey, and if you allow that X is not X you can prove or disprove anything you like. > Consciousness accelerates the growing of intelligence > Then it would be easier to make a intelligent con

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 09 Feb 2013, at 23:44, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Feb 2013, at 13:45, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Well, yes... with computer you could imagine doing just that... so why not ? Also, the fact that you can't imagine a solution your

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 09 Feb 2013, at 23:38, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: If you're still want to go on the technical detail, then give real technical insight of how the mind works and what can really prevent that One insight is that the human brains

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 09 Feb 2013, at 11:05, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 1:36 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes I totally agree with that, what I don't agree is when you say the moment you're becoming Telmo again, you should lose *all* cat memories/feeling... I totall

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 09 Feb 2013, at 00:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: Outside of consciousness, there is no possibility of discerning any difference between accidental byproducts and selected products. Only consciousness selects. Only consciousness has accidents. Good point. But this does not make consciousnes

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 08 Feb 2013, at 17:23, John Clark wrote: ... consciousness is a byproduct of intelligence. Consciousness might be the unconscious, i.e. instinctive and automated, belief or bet in a reality, or self-consistency (for machine expressing their beliefs in first order languages), so that

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> You are convinced that computers and other machines >> don't have consciousness, but you can't say what test you will apply >> to them and see them fail. > > > I'm convinced of that because I understand why there is no reason why they > wou

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 08 Feb 2013, at 13:45, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/9/2013 7:52 AM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 ameekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: > Evolution can only move species to local maxima of fitness. That is true and is a severe limitation of Evolution, a limitation a mind designed by a intelligence, like a computer, wo

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/9/2013 1:43 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:41 AM, meekerdb > wrote: On 2/8/2013 2:14 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My point is that the only possible write algorithm that doesn't read information that is already stored is one th

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 ameekerdb wrote: > > > Evolution can only move species to local maxima of fitness. > That is true and is a severe limitation of Evolution, a limitation a mind designed by a intelligence, like a computer, would not have. You seem to be saying that a mind made in a crappy hap

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 08 Feb 2013, at 13:45, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes Well, while going from Telmo to the cat,

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:41 AM, meekerdb wrote: > On 2/8/2013 2:14 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > My point is that the only possible write algorithm that doesn't read > information that is already stored is one that starts writing at random in > any position. You could erase or corrupt previou

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 10:38 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > >> >> >> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 P

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 10:38 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > >> >> >> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 P

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

Outside of consciousness, there is no possibility of discerning any difference between accidental byproducts and selected products. Only consciousness selects. Only consciousness has accidents. Craig On Friday, February 8, 2013 5:53:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > On 2/8/2013 10:49 AM, John Cla

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/8/2013 2:14 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My point is that the only possible write algorithm that doesn't read information that is already stored is one that starts writing at random in any position. You could erase or corrupt previous information and you have no index. I don't see why that

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/8/2013 1:18 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:57 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 2/8/2013 3:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo memories should be erased, the inverse is

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/8/2013 10:49 AM, John Clark wrote: I don't know what you mean by that, what I mean is that consciousness is a spandrel, it is the unavoidable result of intelligence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_%28biology%29 Or it could be

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 10:38 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > 2

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > >> >> >> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 P

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Friday, February 8, 2013 4:18:02 PM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:57 PM, meekerdb > > wrote: > >> On 2/8/2013 3:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo >>> memories should be erased, the inverse is

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:57 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 2/8/2013 3:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo >> memories should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you be >> back as Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ? >> >

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > 2

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/8/2013 3:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Well, while going from Telmo to the cat, you're rigth that Telmo memories should be erased, the inverse is not true. Why couldn't you be back as Telmo + the memories of having been a cat ? Hi Quentin, Because that would require that I ha

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/8/2013 1:02 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 P

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Friday, February 8, 2013 1:49:54 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > >> You believe that other people have minds when they are sleeping or >>> under anesthesia or dead!?? >>> >> >> > Do you believe that you have a house when you aren't standing in i

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 Craig Weinberg wrote: >> You believe that other people have minds when they are sleeping or under >> anesthesia or dead!?? >> > > > Do you believe that you have a house when you aren't standing in it? > Yes. Do you believe that other people have minds when they are sleeping

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Friday, February 8, 2013 11:23:48 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 Telmo Menezes >wrote: > > >> I don't believe other people have minds when they are sleeping or >>> under anesthesia or dead because when they are in those states they don't >>> behave very intelligently.

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 11:35:08 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 2/7/2013 9:42 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Thursday, February 7, 2013 8:50:09 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: >> >> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg >> wrote: >> >> >> You're avoiding the ques

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > >> >> >> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > >

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > >> >> >> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 2/7/2013 3:52

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > >> >> >> 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb wrote: >>> On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark w

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb wrote: >> >>> On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark wrote: >>> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes > > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes >>> wrote: >>> >>>>>> I'm not claiming t

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:52 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 6:00:17 PM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 7:49 PM, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> > I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:12 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >>>>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. > > Do y

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/7/2013 8:35 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: I don't think that will happen unless they aren't robots. The whole point is that the degree to which an organism is conscious is inversely proportionate to the degree that the organism is 100% controllable. That's the purpose of intelligence - to adva

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/7/2013 9:42 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, February 7, 2013 8:50:09 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg > wrote: >> You're avoiding the question. What is your definitive test for >> consciousness? If you don't have one, then y

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/7/2013 7:04 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Stathis, The simulation of our 'self' that our brain generates *is* good enough to fool oneself! I speculate that schizophrenia and autism are caused by failures of the self-simulati

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 8:50:09 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> You're avoiding the question. What is your definitive test for > >> consciousness? If you don't have one, then you have to admit that your > >> friend (who

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> You're avoiding the question. What is your definitive test for >> consciousness? If you don't have one, then you have to admit that your >> friend (who talks to you and behaves like people do, not in a coma, >> not on a video recording, no

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 6:28:39 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > > > > > On Thursday, February 7, 2013 7:12:08 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:01 AM, Craig Weinberg > wrote: > >> > >> >> Tha

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > On Thursday, February 7, 2013 7:12:08 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: >> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:01 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> >> That's just because the simulation of a person isn't good enough. The >> >> question is what if the simu

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 7:12:08 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:01 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> That's just because the simulation of a person isn't good enough. The > >> question is what if the simulation *is* good enough to completely fool > >> you.

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/7/2013 3:52 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark > wrote: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes mailto:te...@telmomenezes.com>> wrote: >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. > D

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 06 Feb 2013, at 19:04, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so why? > Yes (weakly). You believe that only weakly?! Do you really think the

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:01 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> That's just because the simulation of a person isn't good enough. The >> question is what if the simulation *is* good enough to completely fool >> you. > > > Fooling me is meaningless. "I think that you think therefore you are" fails > to a

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: > Hi Stathis, > > The simulation of our 'self' that our brain generates *is* good enough > to fool oneself! I speculate that schizophrenia and autism are caused by > failures of the self-simulation system... The former is a failure where

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >>> >>> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so why? >>> >> >> > Yes (weakly). >> > > You believe that on

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 3:15:44 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > On 2/6/2013 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 1:53:30 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> > People can pretend to be asleep or

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/6/2013 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 1:53:30 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Craig Weinberg > wrote: > People can pretend to be asleep or anesthetized or dead also. True. > In that case, the criteri

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/6/2013 10:04 AM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so why? > Yes (weakly). You

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 1:53:30 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > > People can pretend to be asleep or anesthetized or dead also. >> > > True. > > >> > In that case, the criteria of behaving intelligently would not help

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > People can pretend to be asleep or anesthetized or dead also. > True. > > In that case, the criteria of behaving intelligently would not help you > determine whether they have a mind or not. > Also true. The Turing Test is not perfect, i

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 1:35:45 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 Craig Weinberg >wrote > > > we also realize intuitively that computers are unconscious >> > > We? Speak for yourself. Maybe your spider senses start to tingle when you > encounter something with con

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 Craig Weinberg wrote > we also realize intuitively that computers are unconscious > We? Speak for yourself. Maybe your spider senses start to tingle when you encounter something with consciousness but I am not Spiderman. > without any logical analysis. > So let's see, com

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 1:04:02 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes > > > wrote: > > >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >>> >>> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so why? >>> >> >> > Yes (weakly)

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >>> >> >> > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so why? >> > > > Yes (weakly). > You believe that only weakly?! Do you really think there is a 49% chance that you are the o

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 7:18:51 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> You're saying that a robot behaving like a human may fool you, but how > do > >> you know that your apparently fellow humans are not robots? > > > > > >

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 05 Feb 2013, at 18:59, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 12:41:53 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: If we fix the TOE as arithmetic. If arithmetic has no theory of itself, Arithmetic has a theory of itself. That's what Gödel discovered. Bruno can it really be said

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On 2/6/2013 7:18 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You're saying that a robot behaving like a human may fool you, but how do you know that your apparently fellow humans are not robots? Because I live in 2013 AD, where I now need to reboot my

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> You're saying that a robot behaving like a human may fool you, but how do >> you know that your apparently fellow humans are not robots? > > > Because I live in 2013 AD, where I now need to reboot my office telephone if > I want the headset

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

It is impossible using particle accelerators to understand god-particles and the ultimate truth of nature as physicists hope. =. To create particle accelerators is needed reference frame of vacuum. (!) It means that physicists take vacuum as a reflector of the real (!) structure of nature: the sp

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 11:05:30 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, February 6, 2013, Craig Weinberg wrote: > >> >> >> On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 9:13:40 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Craig Weinberg >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Maybe if there was

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 9:13:40 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > > Maybe if there was a computer which was not specifically designed to > deceive > > our senses... which would mean that it was one which occurred naturally > a

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > Maybe if there was a computer which was not specifically designed to deceive > our senses... which would mean that it was one which occurred naturally and > did not include anything which was ever designed or programmed by a human > being.

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 8:02:41 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > > I question whether it is possible to ask whether your fellow human > beings > > have minds without resorting to sophistry. I say that not because I am > > in

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > I question whether it is possible to ask whether your fellow human beings > have minds without resorting to sophistry. I say that not because I am > incapable of questioning naive reasoning, but because it does not accurately > represent th

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 6:00:17 PM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 7:49 PM, John Clark > > wrote: > >> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 Telmo Menezes > >wrote: >> >> > I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >>> >> >> Do you believe that your fellow human beings have m

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 7:49 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > I'm not claiming that intelligence == mind. >> > > Do you believe that your fellow human beings have minds? If so why? > Yes (weakly). Occam's razor. If I'm the only human being with a mind, then

  1   2   >