[Zen] new member

[reconceiving1942]

Hi, 

I am new here in this group.
I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana became the 
strongest one for me.

What exactly is zen?
is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life?
If so, can any one describe this quality?

Aham





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[Zen] New Member

[Edgar Owen]

I'd like to welcome Merle to the group who is known to me from another list 
Merle lives in Australia

Welcome Merle and don't hesitate to post. You will find at least several well 
informed members here who will be happy to discuss Zen with you.

Edgar
co-moderator




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] New Member

[Kristy McClain]

Thank you, Anthony.
 
omg-- I've had a break-through!!
 
I am about the least tech-savvy person on the planet,  but I actually 
un-installed the pain-in-the-butt program that was interrupting my home page 
and e-mails. 
 
wow-- I think I have finally completed my true mission in life.  i can die in 
peace now.
 
The politics to which you refer are not familar to me, but I take your word for 
it.   i trust you completely.
 
Be well.
 
Kristy 

--- On Wed, 12/1/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:34 PM


  








Kristy,
 
Welcome back with a good username.
 
 "After the E.. the Laundry"
 
The 'E' can also be replaced with 'D' for dirty money. A good example is the 
former Taiwan president. His loyal son travelled thousands of miles to do the 
job. Nevertheless, the young man was elected to a local perliament recently. 
That wasn't an illusion.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 2/12/10, Healthyplay1  wrote:


From: Healthyplay1 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 2 December, 2010, 3:54 AM


  

Bill/ Anthony,

As JK wrote, "After the E.. the Laundry". I have a different take on this. For 
me, everything is zen. It is the attitude I bring to each and every activity 
that is zen. All of those activities you mention can be deemed samu. I'm not 
saying that I am able to be this way every time, but with that mind, it does 
happen more consistently as time passes.

That said, I'm posting from the web site, as some strange event has changed my 
home page, and I seem to be locked out of replying to messages from my 
yahoo-mail. Yet, I remain serene.

(damn-- I need a house call from Chris;)

*bows to all*

Kristy

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Anthony,
> 
> After experiencing Buddha Nature there is indeed still everyday life, if 
> that’s what you mean by business as usual. You still have to wake up, do 
> chores, eat, wash dishes, take out the garbage and sleep. I didn’t go to an 
> orgy house before I began practicing zen so that’s not a issue for me.
> 
> …Bill!
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
> Of Anthony Wu
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:20 AM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Zen] New Member
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> You are saying that after realizing Buddha nature there is business as usual? 
> In other words, after ridding myself of illusions, I can enjoy orgy house? 
> You are welcome there too.
> 
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Tue, 30/11/10, billsm...@...  wrote:
> 
> From: billsm...@... 
> Subject: RE: [Zen] New Member
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 6:08 PM
> 
> ED,
> 
> (Original and Corrected)
> 
> I started to respond to each of your points below one-by-one, but soon
> discovered all the responses were essentially the same: Zazen, the
> realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are not done for the purpose
> of doing any of the things you list below, all of which are qualities of the
> illusory concept of self. Zazen, the realization of Buddha Nature and zen
> practice are done to rid yourself of illusions and most particularly the
> illusion of self.
> 
> So I guess I agree with you in a round-about, back-door way. If your goal
> is to work on or obtain any of the qualities you list below, then zazen, the
> realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are probably not the way to go
> about that.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> From: zen_fo...@...! m [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of ED
> Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:13 PM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
> 
> 
> 
> Bill,
> Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings (of
> the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the
> creation of new turmoil in the mind.
> It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's
> psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless supplemented
> with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
> Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
> Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group
> behaviors.
> Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that almost
> always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
> Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural
> human and human group behavior.
> Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal
> attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
> Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Anthony Wu]

Kristy,
 
Welcome back with a good username.
 
 "After the E.. the Laundry"
 
The 'E' can also be replaced with 'D' for dirty money. A good example is the 
former Taiwan president. His loyal son travelled thousands of miles to do the 
job. Nevertheless, the young man was elected to a local perliament recently. 
That wasn't an illusion.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 2/12/10, Healthyplay1  wrote:


From: Healthyplay1 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 2 December, 2010, 3:54 AM


  



Bill/ Anthony,

As JK wrote, "After the E.. the Laundry". I have a different take on this. For 
me, everything is zen. It is the attitude I bring to each and every activity 
that is zen. All of those activities you mention can be deemed samu. I'm not 
saying that I am able to be this way every time, but with that mind, it does 
happen more consistently as time passes.

That said, I'm posting from the web site, as some strange event has changed my 
home page, and I seem to be locked out of replying to messages from my 
yahoo-mail. Yet, I remain serene.

(damn-- I need a house call from Chris;)

*bows to all*

Kristy

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Anthony,
> 
> After experiencing Buddha Nature there is indeed still everyday life, if 
> that’s what you mean by business as usual. You still have to wake up, do 
> chores, eat, wash dishes, take out the garbage and sleep. I didn’t go to an 
> orgy house before I began practicing zen so that’s not a issue for me.
> 
> …Bill!
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
> Of Anthony Wu
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:20 AM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Zen] New Member
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> You are saying that after realizing Buddha nature there is business as usual? 
> In other words, after ridding myself of illusions, I can enjoy orgy house? 
> You are welcome there too.
> 
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Tue, 30/11/10, billsm...@...  wrote:
> 
> From: billsm...@... 
> Subject: RE: [Zen] New Member
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 6:08 PM
> 
> ED,
> 
> (Original and Corrected)
> 
> I started to respond to each of your points below one-by-one, but soon
> discovered all the responses were essentially the same: Zazen, the
> realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are not done for the purpose
> of doing any of the things you list below, all of which are qualities of the
> illusory concept of self. Zazen, the realization of Buddha Nature and zen
> practice are done to rid yourself of illusions and most particularly the
> illusion of self.
> 
> So I guess I agree with you in a round-about, back-door way. If your goal
> is to work on or obtain any of the qualities you list below, then zazen, the
> realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are probably not the way to go
> about that.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> From: zen_fo...@...! m [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of ED
> Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:13 PM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
> 
> 
> 
> Bill,
> Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings (of
> the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the
> creation of new turmoil in the mind.
> It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's
> psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless supplemented
> with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
> Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
> Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group
> behaviors.
> Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that almost
> always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
> Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural
> human and human group behavior.
> Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal
> attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
> Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.
> Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.
> --ED
> PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' utterances, but
> as statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives and
> undertandings on these matters. 
> PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> > 
> > Keep sitting for all our sakes. 
> > ...Bill!
> 
> 
> __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> da

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Healthyplay1]

Bill/ Anthony,


As JK  wrote, "After the E.. the Laundry".  I have a different take on this.  
For me, everything is zen.  It is the attitude I bring to each and every 
activity that is zen.  All of those activities you mention can be deemed samu. 
I'm not saying that I am able to be this way every time, but with that mind, it 
does happen more consistently  as time passes.

That said, I'm posting from the web site, as some strange event has changed  my 
home page, and  I seem to be locked out of replying to messages from my 
yahoo-mail.   Yet, I remain serene.

(damn-- I need a house call from Chris;)

*bows to all*

Kristy

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Anthony,
> 
> After experiencing Buddha Nature there is indeed still everyday life, if 
> that’s what you mean by business as usual.  You still have to wake up, do 
> chores, eat, wash dishes, take out the garbage and sleep.  I didn’t go to 
> an orgy house before I began practicing zen so that’s not a issue for me.
> 
> …Bill!
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
> Of Anthony Wu
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:20 AM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Zen] New Member
> 
>   
> Bill,
>  
> You are saying that after realizing Buddha nature there is business as usual? 
> In other words, after ridding myself of illusions, I can enjoy orgy house? 
> You are welcome there too.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Tue, 30/11/10, billsm...@...  wrote:
> 
> From: billsm...@... 
> Subject: RE: [Zen] New Member
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 6:08 PM
>   
> ED,
> 
> (Original and Corrected)
> 
> I started to respond to each of your points below one-by-one, but soon
> discovered all the responses were essentially the same: Zazen, the
> realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are not done for the purpose
> of doing any of the things you list below, all of which are qualities of the
> illusory concept of self. Zazen, the realization of Buddha Nature and zen
> practice are done to rid yourself of illusions and most particularly the
> illusion of self.
> 
> So I guess I agree with you in a round-about, back-door way. If your goal
> is to work on or obtain any of the qualities you list below, then zazen, the
> realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are probably not the way to go
> about that.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> From: zen_fo...@...! m [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of ED
> Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:13 PM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
> 
>   
> 
> Bill,
> Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings (of
> the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the
> creation of new turmoil in the mind.
> It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's
> psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless supplemented
> with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
> Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
> Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group
> behaviors.
> Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that almost
> always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
> Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural
> human and human group behavior.
> Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal
> attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
> Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.
> Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.
> --ED
> PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' utterances, but
> as statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives and
> undertandings on these matters. 
> PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.
>  
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> > 
> > Keep sitting for all our sakes. 
> > ...Bill!
>  
> 
> __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 5659 (20101129) __
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 5659 (20101129) __
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 5659 (20101129) __
> 
> The message was checked by ESET

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

And also for the actions of Jews, Christians, Chinese or Americans etc.
...?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
>
> Anthony's statements make more sense if you think he is referring to
the
> actions of the Taleban, not their beliefs or ethnicities.
>
> The other groups you list don't have coherent set of actions that they
are
> known for as much as the Taleban are "known" for terrorism, violent
> supression of women's rights, and that sort of thing. As far as I can
tell,
> it is generally but not always true that the more emmeshed people are
in
> habitually honoring the deluded ideas of their own mind over the
concrete
> goodness offered in each moment, the harder it is to detach from that
> emmeshment. The possibility of redemption is always present, it just
takes
> an instant as they say.
>
> --Chris


> > And also for Jews, Christians, Chinese or Americans ... etc.?
> >
> > --ED


> > > Llius,
> > >
> > > It will take eons and a lot of punishments, either by law or by
karma,
> > > for a Taleban to get enlightened.
> > >
> > > ED's original question is: what happens after realizing Buddha
nature?
> > > Will there be profound, fundamental changes, or just business as
usual?
> > >
> > > Anthony

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Chris Austin-Lane]

Anthony's statements make more sense if you think he is referring to the
actions of the Taleban, not their beliefs or ethnicities.

The other groups you list don't have coherent set of actions that they are
known for as much as the Taleban are "known" for terrorism, violent
supression of women's rights, and that sort of thing.  As far as I can tell,
it is generally but not always true that the more emmeshed people are in
habitually honoring the deluded ideas of their own mind over the concrete
goodness offered in each moment, the harder it is to detach from that
emmeshment.  The possibility of redemption is always present, it just takes
an instant as they say.

--Chris

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:00 AM, ED  wrote:

>
>
>
> And also for Jews, Christians, Chinese or Americans ... etc.?
>
> --ED
>
>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Llius,
> >
> > It will take eons and a lot of punishments, either by law or by karma,
> for a Taleban to get enlightened.
> >
> > ED's original question is: what happens after realizing Buddha nature?
> Will there be profound, fundamental changes, or just business as usual?
> >
> > Anthony
>
>
> 
>

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

And also for Jews, Christians, Chinese or Americans ... etc.?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Llius,
>
> It will take eons and a lot of punishments, either by law or by karma,
for a Taleban to get enlightened.
>
> ED's original question is: what happens after realizing Buddha nature?
Will there be profound, fundamental changes, or just business as usual?
>
> Anthony

RE: [Zen] New Member

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

After experiencing Buddha Nature there is indeed still everyday life, if that’s 
what you mean by business as usual.  You still have to wake up, do chores, eat, 
wash dishes, take out the garbage and sleep.  I didn’t go to an orgy house 
before I began practicing zen so that’s not a issue for me.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:20 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] New Member

  
Bill,
 
You are saying that after realizing Buddha nature there is business as usual? 
In other words, after ridding myself of illusions, I can enjoy orgy house? You 
are welcome there too.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 30/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 6:08 PM
  
ED,

(Original and Corrected)

I started to respond to each of your points below one-by-one, but soon
discovered all the responses were essentially the same: Zazen, the
realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are not done for the purpose
of doing any of the things you list below, all of which are qualities of the
illusory concept of self. Zazen, the realization of Buddha Nature and zen
practice are done to rid yourself of illusions and most particularly the
illusion of self.

So I guess I agree with you in a round-about, back-door way. If your goal
is to work on or obtain any of the qualities you list below, then zazen, the
realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are probably not the way to go
about that.

...Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogroups.co! m [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:13 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member

  

Bill,
Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings (of
the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the
creation of new turmoil in the mind.
It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's
psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless supplemented
with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group
behaviors.
Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that almost
always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural
human and human group behavior.
Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal
attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.
Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.
--ED
PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' utterances, but
as statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives and
undertandings on these matters. 
PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> Keep sitting for all our sakes. 
> ...Bill!
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5659 (20101129) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5659 (20101129) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5659 (20101129) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com





__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5660 (20101130) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 5662 (20101130) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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RE: [Zen] New Member

[BillSmart]

ED,

One small point:  The concept of self makes the ILLUSORY world go round, and
in going round brings rise to all of the items you listed below.

The real world goes around just fine, in fact I think a lot better, without
the concept of self.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 6:20 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member

  
 
Bill,
We are in agreement. 
One small point: The 'concept' of self makes the world go round - for better
and for worse - and calling  it 'illusory' does not detract from its
overwhelmingly stupendous power in the world.
My position on Zen is: It has been very precious to me. My belief is that
Zazen would benefit almost anyone, and so I recommend it highly to anyone
who has chosen to pursue this path.
Study of some of the Buddha's basic teachings (to be found in the Theravadin
texts) is highly recommended, as doing so can enhance the quality of ones'
Zazen and hasten its effectivenes. 
The above is basic. 
To fulfill the list below requires a lot more - and a lot more discussion.
 --ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> ED,
> 
> I started to respond to each of your points below one-by-one, but soon
> discovered all the responses were essentially the same: Zazen, the
> realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are not done for the purpose
> of doing any of the things you list below, all of which are qualities of
the
> illusory concept of self. Zazen, the realization of Buddha Nature and zen
> practice are done to rid yourself of illusions and most particularly the
> illusion of self.
> 
> So I guess I agree with you in a round-about, back-door way. If your goal
> is to work on or obtain any of the qualities you list below, then zazen,
the
> realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are probably not the way to
go
> about that.
> 
> ...Bill! 
 
> Bill,
> Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings (of
> the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the
> creation of new turmoil in the mind.
> It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's
> psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless
supplemented
> with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
> Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
> Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group
> behaviors.
> Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that
almost
> always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
> Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural
> human and human group behavior.
> Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal
> attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
> Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.
> Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.
> --ED
> PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' utterances,
but
> as statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives and
> undertandings on these matters. 
> PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.
 
> > Chris,
> > Keep sitting for all our sakes. 
> > ...Bill!



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Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Anthony

We are not here for judging, at least myself.
Eons are not that long when you have ethernity, besides.

If my memory serves me well, the next expected Tirtankara for jainists, to be 
expected after a lnnnggg time, is now in the worst hell.

For your last question, as I said, I could parrot what I read. But I do not 
know. Just wait till we get this state.
We can not talk about a thing that by definition is not expresable in words 
because it trascendts duality.
I beg your pardon to not be of help

With best wishes

Lluís

  - Original Message - 
  From: Anthony Wu 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member



Llius,

It will take eons and a lot of punishments, either by law or by karma, 
for a Taleban to get enlightened.

ED's original question is: what happens after realizing Buddha nature? 
Will there be profound, fundamental changes, or just business as usual?

Anthony

--- On Tue, 30/11/10, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:


  From: Lluís Mendieta 
  Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 6:29 AM



   
  Hi, Anthony

  It will be very well Mahayana, but I have always read that we will be 
not complete till the last sentient being would not be enlightened.

  Any change is a change,
  If for good, each time, a little better.
  Maybe too naïf.

  Just listening to Metta Chant (along with some Shiv mantra)
  And remembering what I read in a Jain book: even non believers, not 
specially easy to get enlightnement, even the less likely to get enlightement, 
they get. 

  With best whises

  Lluís
- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Wu 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member


  
  Nor does it change human nature on greed, aversion and 
delusion that lead to killing, lying, robbing and raping?

  Anthony

  --- On Mon, 29/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 10:12 PM


  

Bill,
Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the 
Teachings (of the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically 
curtail the creation of new turmoil in the mind.
It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can 
augment one's psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless 
supplemented with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into 
human or group behaviors.
Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural 
fakery that almost always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and 
natural human and human group behavior.
Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the 
triple cardinal attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and 
behaviors.
Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines 
it.
--ED
PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex 
cathedra' utterances, but as statements to initiate the discussion of 
alternative perspectives and undertandings on these matters. 
PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the 
above goals.

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> Keep sitting for all our sakes. 
> ...Bill!
 

   



  

RE: [Zen] New Member

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
You are saying that after realizing Buddha nature there is business as usual? 
In other words, after ridding myself of illusions, I can enjoy orgyhouse? You 
are welcome there too.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 30/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 6:08 PM


  



ED,

(Original and Corrected)

I started to respond to each of your points below one-by-one, but soon
discovered all the responses were essentially the same: Zazen, the
realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are not done for the purpose
of doing any of the things you list below, all of which are qualities of the
illusory concept of self. Zazen, the realization of Buddha Nature and zen
practice are done to rid yourself of illusions and most particularly the
illusion of self.

So I guess I agree with you in a round-about, back-door way. If your goal
is to work on or obtain any of the qualities you list below, then zazen, the
realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are probably not the way to go
about that.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:13 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member

  

Bill,
Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings (of
the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the
creation of new turmoil in the mind.
It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's
psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless supplemented
with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group
behaviors.
Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that almost
always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural
human and human group behavior.
Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal
attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.
Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.
--ED
PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' utterances, but
as statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives and
undertandings on these matters. 
PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> Keep sitting for all our sakes. 
> ...Bill!
 

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database 5659 (20101129) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


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Re: [Zen] New Member

[Anthony Wu]

ED,
 
I am just expanding your question: will there be profound changes after 
realizing Buddha nature? Or just business as usual?
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 30/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 7:57 AM


  





What is your point?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Nor does it change human nature on greed, aversion and delusion that
lead to killing, lying, robbing and raping?
>
> Anthony

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Anthony Wu]

Llius,
 
It will take eons and a lot of punishments, either by law or by karma, for a 
Taleban to get enlightened.
 
ED's original question is: what happens after realizing Buddha nature? Will 
there be profound, fundamental changes, or just business as usual?
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 30/11/10, Lluís Mendieta  wrote:


From: Lluís Mendieta 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 30 November, 2010, 6:29 AM


  



 
Hi, Anthony
 
It will be very well Mahayana, but I have always read that we will be not 
complete till the last sentient being would not be enlightened.
 
Any change is a change,
If for good, each time, a little better.
Maybe too naïf.
 
Just listening to Metta Chant (along with some Shiv mantra)
And remembering what I read in a Jain book: even non believers, not specially 
easy to get enlightnement, even the less likely to get enlightement, they get. 
 
With best whises
 
Lluís

- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Wu 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member

  






Nor does it change human nature on greed, aversion and delusion that lead to 
killing, lying, robbing and raping?
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 29/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 10:12 PM


  



Bill,
Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings (of the 
Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the creation of 
new turmoil in the mind.
It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's 
psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless supplemented 
with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group 
behaviors.
Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that almost 
always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural 
human and human group behavior.
Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal 
attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.
Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.
--ED
PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' utterances, but as 
statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives and 
undertandings on these matters. 
PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> Keep sitting for all our sakes. 
> ...Bill!
 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

'wei wu wei: "action without action" or "effortless doing"'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
>
> I was not disputing how much life is pervasively unsatisfying, but
> that calming the mind is a matter of doing.  It is a matter of not
> doing.
>
> Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane



> On Nov 29, 2010, at 16:01, "ED" seacrofter...@... wrote:

> >Our society, being what it is, stress, excitement and agitation are
the usual state of the mind.

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Chris Austin-Lane]

On Nov 29, 2010, at 16:01, "ED"  wrote:





>Our society, being what it is, stress, excitement and agitation are the usual 
>state of the mind.


I was not disputing how much life is pervasively unsatisfying, but
that calming the mind is a matter of doing.  It is a matter of not
doing.


Thanks,

Chris Austin-Lane




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Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Bill,

We are in agreement.

One small point: The 'concept' of self makes the world go round - for
better and for worse - and calling  it 'illusory' does not detract from
its overwhelmingly stupendous power in the world.

My position on Zen is: It has been very precious to me. My belief is
that Zazen would benefit almost anyone, and so I recommend it highly to
anyone who has chosen to pursue this path.

Study of some of the Buddha's basic teachings (to be found in the
Theravadin texts) is highly recommended, as doing so can enhance the
quality of ones' Zazen and hasten its effectivenes.

The above is basic.

To fulfill the list below requires a lot more - and a lot more
discussion.

  --ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> ED,
>
> I started to respond to each of your points below one-by-one, but soon
> discovered all the responses were essentially the same: Zazen, the
> realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are not done for the
purpose
> of doing any of the things you list below, all of which are qualities
of the
> illusory concept of self. Zazen, the realization of Buddha Nature and
zen
> practice are done to rid yourself of illusions and most particularly
the
> illusion of self.
>
> So I guess I agree with you in a round-about, back-door way. If your
goal
> is to work on or obtain any of the qualities you list below, then
zazen, the
> realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are probably not the way
to go
> about that.
>
> ...Bill!



> Bill,

> Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings
(of
> the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail
the
> creation of new turmoil in the mind.

> It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment
one's
> psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless
supplemented
> with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.

> Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.

> Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group
> behaviors.

> Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that
almost
> always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.

> Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural
> human and human group behavior.

> Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal
> attractors: Wealth, sex and power.

> Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.

> Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.

> --ED

> PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra'
utterances, but
> as statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives
and
> undertandings on these matters.

> PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.




> > Chris,
> > Keep sitting for all our sakes.
> > ...Bill!

RE: [Zen] New Member

[BillSmart]

ED,

(Original and Corrected)

I started to respond to each of your points below one-by-one, but soon
discovered all the responses were essentially the same:  Zazen, the
realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are not done for the purpose
of doing any of the things you list below, all of which are qualities of the
illusory concept of self.  Zazen, the realization of Buddha Nature and zen
practice are done to rid yourself of illusions and most particularly the
illusion of self.

So I guess I agree with you in a round-about, back-door way.  If your goal
is to work on or obtain any of the qualities you list below, then zazen, the
realization of Buddha Nature and zen practice are probably not the way to go
about that.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:13 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member

  

Bill,
Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings (of
the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the
creation of new turmoil in the mind.
It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's
psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless supplemented
with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group
behaviors.
Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that almost
always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural
human and human group behavior.
Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal
attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.
Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.
--ED
PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' utterances, but
as statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives and
undertandings on these matters. 
PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> Keep sitting for all our sakes. 
> ...Bill!
 



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database 5659 (20101129) __

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http://www.eset.com
 

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database 5659 (20101129) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

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database 5659 (20101129) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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<*> Your email settings:
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<*> To change settings online go to:
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Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

Sitting is the vehicle, not the driver.  A tool can not shape its user and
it can only help that person get where they need to go if said person uses
it correctly.

-Lana

"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."
- William Osler



 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Nor does it change human nature on greed, aversion and delusion that
> lead to killing, lying, robbing and raping?
> >
> > Anthony
>

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Our society, being what it is, stress, excitement and agitation are the
usual state of the mind.


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
>
> I think calmness is the natural state of the mind, and sitting allows
that
> to be seen.
>
> The mind becomes calm when people stop ruffling it up, not when people
calm
> it.

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

What is your point?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Nor does it change human nature on greed, aversion and delusion that
lead to killing, lying, robbing and raping?
>
> Anthony






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] New Member

[Chris Austin-Lane]

One slight quibble I have with this.

I think calmness is the natural state of the mind, and sitting allows that
to be seen.

The mind becomes calm when people stop ruffling it up, not when people calm
it.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:16 AM, ED  wrote:

> Sitting can calm the mind

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lluís Mendieta]

Hi, Anthony

It will be very well Mahayana, but I have always read that we will be not 
complete till the last sentient being would not be enlightened.

Any change is a change,
If for good, each time, a little better.
Maybe too naïf.

Just listening to Metta Chant (along with some Shiv mantra)
And remembering what I read in a Jain book: even non believers, not specially 
easy to get enlightnement, even the less likely to get enlightement, they get. 

With best whises

Lluís
  - Original Message - 
  From: Anthony Wu 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 11:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member



Nor does it change human nature on greed, aversion and delusion that 
lead to killing, lying, robbing and raping?

Anthony

--- On Mon, 29/11/10, ED  wrote:


  From: ED 
  Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 10:12 PM




  Bill,
  Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings 
(of the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the 
creation of new turmoil in the mind.
  It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment 
one's psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless 
supplemented with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
  Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
  Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or 
group behaviors.
  Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that 
almost always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
  Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural 
human and human group behavior.
  Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple 
cardinal attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
  Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.
  Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.
  --ED
  PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' 
utterances, but as statements to initiate the discussion of alternative 
perspectives and undertandings on these matters. 
  PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.

  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
  >
  > Chris,
  > 
  > Keep sitting for all our sakes. 
  > ...Bill!
   



  

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Anthony Wu]

Nor does it change human nature on greed, aversion and delusion that lead to 
killing, lying, robbing and raping?
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 29/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 10:12 PM


  





Bill,
Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings (of the 
Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the creation of 
new turmoil in the mind.
It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's 
psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless supplemented 
with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.
Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.
Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group 
behaviors.
Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that almost 
always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.
Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural 
human and human group behavior.
Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal 
attractors: Wealth, sex and power.
Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.
Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.
--ED
PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' utterances, but as 
statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives and 
undertandings on these matters. 
PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> Keep sitting for all our sakes. 
> ...Bill!
 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Rose P]

Thank you, thank you, thank you Chris. Really interesting :)

Rose

--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:

From: Chris Austin-Lane 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 29, 2010, 12:14 AM







 



  



  
  
  
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Rose P  wrote:


The 'why' seems to me to be a very important question, esp for beginners like 
me who are looking for some sort of inspiration (totally not the right word, 
but don't have a better one) from those who have been practicing a while (along 
the lines of.life before zen was sometimes like this, life after zen is 
mainly like this). Curiously the subject of 'why' seems to be rarely touched 
on, with real life examples.


Anything I might say about why would just be making up a story after the fact 
which failed to communicate the reality.  And, there's no reason to expect I 
particularly understand why I do something.  Someone wrote Three Pillars of 
Zen at a time when my father purchased it.  I happened to grow up in a home 
with a large metal Thai teaching buddha over the fire place.  Essentially 
every thing that has happened in the universe till now comes into play when my 
brain is balancing between two proposed courses of actions.  



However, I can certainly tell the story of how I started sitting.  
About 6 years ago, my son was about to start walking and my daughter was about 
to enter kindergarten.  At my family's traditional August beach trip, I read a 
Karen Armstrong book about Buddha, and became convinced that my attempt to be 
the primary parent and have paid employment was no longer right occupation, and 
so I volunteered to be laid off in our next round of layoffs.  I had sometime 
around then read the Three Pillars of Zen and Zen and the Art of Archery, so I 
decided if I was quitting jobs based on Buddha's path, I should try the seated 
meditation as well.  I read an intro on how to meditate by Thich Nhat Hanh and 
found a zafu at our neighborhood Buddhist knick-nack shop.  I found a local 
sangha I could sit with, Silver Spring Zendo, and started sitting.  My goal 
then was to be able to sit for 25 minutes, which was the time of sitting at the 
Silver Spring Zendo.  I signed up for an intro to meditation evening at the 
zendo about
 2 months in the future and started sitting.  By the time of the intro  came 
around, I was able to sit for 25 minutes.  


Over the next several years, I sat more and more, and started attending 
day-long or 2-3 day retreats.  A big change happened about 1 or 2 years in, 
when the group sitting I was attending changed from sitting from 6 am to 7:30 
to sitting in the evening, 7 pm - 8 pm or something.  It is a very interesting 
difference between sitting first thing in the morning, when your mind is a bit 
calmer naturally and sitting at the end of the day when your thoughts are often 
full of the days activities.  


About 2 years ago, I had to resume full time paid work and we had to move to 
California, so I've been more on my own since then.  I make it to a group sit 
maybe 2 times a year, and don't really have a personal connection anywhere 
here; however, I have just signed up for a week long sesshin this February with 
a group that seems nice, that I've been sitting with most often.  


As far as what changes the sitting makes to me, it is difficult to say.  The 
first thing I noticed is that, although I would have told anyone that I am a 
very slow to anger person, in fact the hot flash of anger pulses through my 
arms/blood several times a day.  I feel that I see my life reflected in the 
sitting.  When I am tense and overwhelmed, my sitting is tense.  When I am 
calmer, my sitting is calmer.  I can see the same ego-centric thoughts, 
obviously silly when exposed to the light of attention, repeating over and over 
again.  At some point, my self-critical habit wears out and seeing the thought 
brings a tiny smile at my human reality, rather than the petty indulgence the 
thought wants nor the self-attack that is my habitual response.  


I like to say, that one learns not to get so upset, even at getting upset.  
My wife says I'm much more stubborn and willing to push back since I've been 
sitting.  Whether that change is useful or not is I think something we 
disagree over.  


I find I'm a kinder parent on days when I've sat for 30 minutes in the morning, 
but of course I'm a kinder parent when I bike 20 miles or take a nice long bath 
as well.  I am less likely to drive by an open parking spot because of being 
caught up in thoughts of what I should have typed in that email.  I notice a 
bit of space between something happening and my response.  I am starting to 
trust that I don't have to rush in and do something - when the time is right to 
do something, I will be ready and will do it.  Or s

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

(Corrected)

Bill,

Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to Teachings (of
the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail the
creation of new turmoil in the mind.

It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's
psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless
supplemented with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.

Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.

Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group
behaviors.

Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that
almost always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.

Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural
human and human group behavior.

Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal
attractors: Wealth, sex and power.

Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.

Nor does it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.

--ED

PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' utterances,
but as statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives
and undertandings of these matters.

PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> Keep sitting for all our sakes.

> ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Bill,

Sitting can calm the mind and make it more receptive to the Teachings
(of the Buddha); and living by these Teachings will drastically curtail
the creation of new turmoil in the mind.

It is not at all clear whether realizing Buddha Nature can augment one's
psychological/emotional/relational smarts significantly, unless
supplemented with mental health counseling - and then only perhaps.

Nor will it necessarily rectify personality disorders.

Nor does it guarantee deeper psychological insight into human or group
behaviors.

Nor does it necessarily strip one of the religio-cultural fakery that
almost always becomes part and parcel of one's stance in life.

Nor does it necessarily enhance understanding of normal and natural
human and human group behavior.

Nor does it ever completely neutralize the pull of the triple cardinal
attractors: Wealth, sex and power.

Nor does it necessarily enhance one's ethical insights and behaviors.

Nor those it ever squash the ego, but possibly only refines it.

--ED

PS1: Please do not view the above statement as 'ex cathedra' utterances,
but as statements to initiate the discussion of alternative perspectives
and undertandings on these matters.

PS2: The ordinary human life is a non-attainment of the above goals.



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> Keep sitting for all our sakes.

> ...Bill!

RE: [Zen] New Member

[BillSmart]

Chris,

Thanks for sharing this.  I was inspired by it!

Keep sitting for all our sakes…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 7:15 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member

  

On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Rose P  wrote:
The 'why' seems to me to be a very important question, esp for beginners like 
me who are looking for some sort of inspiration (totally not the right word, 
but don't have a better one) from those who have been practicing a while (along 
the lines of.life before zen was sometimes like this, life after zen is 
mainly like this). Curiously the subject of 'why' seems to be rarely touched 
on, with real life examples.

Anything I might say about why would just be making up a story after the fact 
which failed to communicate the reality.  And, there's no reason to expect I 
particularly understand why I do something.  Someone wrote Three Pillars of Zen 
at a time when my father purchased it.  I happened to grow up in a home with a 
large metal Thai teaching buddha over the fire place.  Essentially every thing 
that has happened in the universe till now comes into play when my brain is 
balancing between two proposed courses of actions.  

However, I can certainly tell the story of how I started sitting.  

About 6 years ago, my son was about to start walking and my daughter was about 
to enter kindergarten.  At my family's traditional August beach trip, I read a 
Karen Armstrong book about Buddha, and became convinced that my attempt to be 
the primary parent and have paid employment was no longer right occupation, and 
so I volunteered to be laid off in our next round of layoffs.  I had sometime 
around then read the Three Pillars of Zen and Zen and the Art of Archery, so I 
decided if I was quitting jobs based on Buddha's path, I should try the seated 
meditation as well.  I read an intro on how to meditate by Thich Nhat Hanh and 
found a zafu at our neighborhood Buddhist knick-nack shop.  I found a local 
sangha I could sit with, Silver Spring Zendo, and started sitting.  My goal 
then was to be able to sit for 25 minutes, which was the time of sitting at the 
Silver Spring Zendo.  I signed up for an intro to meditation evening at the 
zendo about 2 months in the future and started sitting.  By the time of the 
intro  came around, I was able to sit for 25 minutes.  

Over the next several years, I sat more and more, and started attending 
day-long or 2-3 day retreats.  A big change happened about 1 or 2 years in, 
when the group sitting I was attending changed from sitting from 6 am to 7:30 
to sitting in the evening, 7 pm - 8 pm or something.  It is a very interesting 
difference between sitting first thing in the morning, when your mind is a bit 
calmer naturally and sitting at the end of the day when your thoughts are often 
full of the days activities.  

About 2 years ago, I had to resume full time paid work and we had to move to 
California, so I've been more on my own since then.  I make it to a group sit 
maybe 2 times a year, and don't really have a personal connection anywhere 
here; however, I have just signed up for a week long sesshin this February with 
a group that seems nice, that I've been sitting with most often.  

As far as what changes the sitting makes to me, it is difficult to say.  The 
first thing I noticed is that, although I would have told anyone that I am a 
very slow to anger person, in fact the hot flash of anger pulses through my 
arms/blood several times a day.  I feel that I see my life reflected in the 
sitting.  When I am tense and overwhelmed, my sitting is tense.  When I am 
calmer, my sitting is calmer.  I can see the same ego-centric thoughts, 
obviously silly when exposed to the light of attention, repeating over and over 
again.  At some point, my self-critical habit wears out and seeing the thought 
brings a tiny smile at my human reality, rather than the petty indulgence the 
thought wants nor the self-attack that is my habitual response.  

I like to say, that one learns not to get so upset, even at getting upset.  

My wife says I'm much more stubborn and willing to push back since I've been 
sitting.  Whether that change is useful or not is I think something we disagree 
over.  

I find I'm a kinder parent on days when I've sat for 30 minutes in the morning, 
but of course I'm a kinder parent when I bike 20 miles or take a nice long bath 
as well.  I am less likely to drive by an open parking spot because of being 
caught up in thoughts of what I should have typed in that email.  I notice a 
bit of space between something happening and my response.  I am starting to 
trust that I don't have to rush in and do something - when the time is right to 
do something, I will be ready and will do it.  Or someone will - it doesn'

RE: [Zen] New Member

[BillSmart]

ED,

To my knowledge zen or even Zen Buddhism has ever proactively sought new
members.  In fact many of the historical stories relate that Zen Masters
have set barriers up to make sure that new students are really earnest about
pursuing zen.

Most Zen Buddhist centers today don't set up any barriers and might even
subtly solicit new members, but I think the majority of zen students become
students the same way you describe by reading or from hearing about zen via
word-of-mouth.  They then come, give it a try and if they like it they stay.
If they don't they try something else.

Zen Buddhists certainly do not actively proselytize like Christians are well
known to do.

Do you know or have opinions on how Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc..., go about
attracting new members?  Muslims must to something because I keep hearing
that Islam is the fastest growing religion.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 8:46 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member

  

Bill,
Exactly!  
In my case, a long time ago I was in great mental suffering and confusion. I
accidentally discovered Zen literature and took to it. I did group zazen and
private Zazen and enjoyed both - as well as the chanting, rituals,
discipline and non-rational stories.
Therefore, if anyone were looking for a path to 'salvation', had become
aware of Zen, and asked me for my 'advice', I would say: Certainly, try it,
you might like it.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
ED,

Others don't automatically have to embrace zen or Buddhism, or Christianity
or Judaism or Humanism or Materialism, etc... It's only if these 'others'
are dissatisfied or disappointed with their life that they might seek a
remedy.

...Bill!

 

 
Bill,
That may well be the case.
Does it automatically follow that others ought to spend enormous amounts of
time and energy attempting to attain the same mind-state, and if so, why?
--ED
 
> Ed,
>
> I am convinced that I have met, interacted with and witnessed several
> modern-day zen masters that were able to hold Buddha Mind in their
> everyday
> life: Koyru Roshi, Maezumi Roshi, Dae Soen Sa Nim and Tetsugen (Bernard
> Glassman) Roshi before he was a Roshi and was the Senior Monk at ZCLA
> under
> Maezumi Roshi immediately come to mind. This is not to say I believe they
> held Buddha Mind 24x7, but certainly could move to that stage pretty much
> whenever they chose to do so.
>
> I have also interacted with many (100's) others that could hold Buddha
> Mind
> in varying degrees of a controlled environment - like performing their
> housekeeping jobs in the zen center, or while they are at a supermarket
> shopping for groceries.
>
> ...Bill!

 
> Bill,
> How would one recognize a Buddha Mind in the real world? Has there been or
> is there any roshi  in America who has been an exemplar on how to manifest
> Buddha Nature in the real world?
> --ED 
 

> > Lana,
> >
> > There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen practice,
> > especially in the beginning. But eventually you have to bring your
> > practice
> > into the 'real world'. Zen is everyday life. You should be able to
> > maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City during
> > rush
> > hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.
> >
> > ...Bill!
 



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Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Chris,

Thank you so much for this gift of yourself from you to us.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:


On Sun, Nov 28, 2010, Rose P wrote:

" The 'why' seems to me to be a very important question, esp for
beginners like me who are looking for some sort of inspiration (totally
not the right word, but don't have a better one) from those who have
been practicing a while (along the lines of.life before zen was
sometimes like this, life after zen is mainly like this). Curiously the
subject of 'why' seems to be rarely touched on, with real life
examples."
 Anything I might say about why would just be making up a story after
the fact which failed to communicate the reality.And, there's no
reason to expect I particularly understand why I do something.   
Someone wrote Three Pillars of Zen at a time when my father purchased
it. I happened to grow up in a home with a large metal Thai teaching
buddha over the fire place.  Essentially every thing that has happened
in the universe till now comes into play when my brain is balancing
between two proposed courses of actions.

However, I can certainly tell the story of how I started sitting.
About 6 years ago, my son was about to start walking and my daughter was
about to enter kindergarten.  At my family's traditional August beach
trip, I read a Karen Armstrong book about Buddha, and became convinced
that my attempt to be the primary parent and have paid employment was no
longer right occupation, and so I volunteered to be laid off in our next
round of layoffs.I had sometime around then read the Three Pillars
of Zen and Zen and the Art of Archery, so I decided if I was quitting
jobs based on Buddha's path, I should try the seated meditation as well.
I read an intro on how to meditate by Thich Nhat Hanh and found a zafu
at our neighborhood Buddhist knick-nack shop.  I found a local sangha I
could sit with, Silver Spring Zendo, and started sitting.  My goal then
was to be able to sit for 25 minutes, which was the time of sitting at
the Silver Spring Zendo. Â I signed up for an intro to meditation
evening at the zendo about 2 months in the future and started sitting. 
By the time of the intro  came around, I was able to sit for 25 minutes.
Over the next several years, I sat more and more, and started attending
day-long or 2-3 day retreats.  A big change happened about 1 or 2 years
in, when the group sitting I was attending changed from sitting from 6
am to 7:30 to sitting in the evening, 7 pm - 8 pm or something.  It is a
very interesting difference between sitting first thing in the morning,
when your mind is a bit calmer naturally and sitting at the end of the
day when your thoughts are often full of the days activities.
About 2 years ago, I had to resume full time paid work and we had to
move to California, so I've been more on my own since then.  I make it
to a group sit maybe 2 times a year, and don't really have a personal
connection anywhere here; however, I have just signed up for a week long
sesshin this February with a group that seems nice, that I've been
sitting with most often.
As far as what changes the sitting makes to me, it is difficult to say. 
The first thing I noticed is that, although I would have told anyone
that I am a very slow to anger person, in fact the hot flash of anger
pulses through my arms/blood several times a day.I feel that I see
my life reflected in the sitting.  When I am tense and overwhelmed, my
sitting is tense. Â When I am calmer, my sitting is calmer.  I can
see the same ego-centric thoughts, obviously silly when exposed to the
light of attention, repeating over and over again.  At some point, my
self-critical habit wears out and seeing the thought brings a tiny smile
at my human reality, rather than the petty indulgence the thought wants
nor the self-attack that is my habitual response.
I like to say, that one learns not to get so upset, even at getting
upset.
My wife says I'm much more stubborn and willing to push back since I've
been sitting.  Whether that change is useful or not is I think something
we disagree over.
I find I'm a kinder parent on days when I've sat for 30 minutes in the
morning, but of course I'm a kinder parent when I bike 20 miles or take
a nice long bath as well. I am less likely to drive by an open parking
spot because of being caught up in thoughts of what I should have typed
in that email. I notice a bit of space between something happening and
my response. I am starting to trust that I don't have to rush in and do
something - when the time is right to do something, I will be ready and
will do it.  Or someone will - it doesn't matter that I rescue people
myself or they figure it out on their own.
I do see very repeatedly how my "trying to do stuff" is what crinkles up
my self so I miss the basic ease that life has.  Sitting with some goal
causes the nervous system to stress out. That is just adding oil to the
fire. Â Sitting isn't about peace o

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Bill,

Exactly!

In my case, a long time ago I was in great mental suffering and
confusion. I accidentally discovered Zen literature and took to it. I
did group zazen and private Zazen and enjoyed both - as well as the
chanting, rituals, discipline and non-rational stories.

Therefore, if anyone were looking for a path to 'salvation', had become
aware of Zen, and asked me for my 'advice', I would say: Certainly, try
it, you might like it.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
ED,

Others don't automatically have to embrace zen or Buddhism, or
Christianity
or Judaism or Humanism or Materialism, etc... It's only if these
'others'
are dissatisfied or disappointed with their life that they might seek a
remedy.

...Bill!




Bill,
That may well be the case.
Does it automatically follow that others ought to spend enormous amounts
of
time and energy attempting to attain the same mind-state, and if so,
why?
--ED



> Ed,
>
> I am convinced that I have met, interacted with and witnessed several
> modern-day zen masters that were able to hold Buddha Mind in their
> everyday
> life: Koyru Roshi, Maezumi Roshi, Dae Soen Sa Nim and Tetsugen
(Bernard
> Glassman) Roshi before he was a Roshi and was the Senior Monk at ZCLA
> under
> Maezumi Roshi immediately come to mind. This is not to say I believe
they
> held Buddha Mind 24x7, but certainly could move to that stage pretty
much
> whenever they chose to do so.
>
> I have also interacted with many (100's) others that could hold Buddha
> Mind
> in varying degrees of a controlled environment - like performing their
> housekeeping jobs in the zen center, or while they are at a
supermarket
> shopping for groceries.
>
> ...Bill!



> Bill,
> How would one recognize a Buddha Mind in the real world? Has there
been or
> is there any roshi  in America who has been an exemplar on how to
manifest
> Buddha Nature in the real world?
> --ED




> > Lana,
> >
> > There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen
practice,
> > especially in the beginning. But eventually you have to bring your
> > practice
> > into the 'real world'. Zen is everyday life. You should be able to
> > maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City
during
> > rush
> > hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.
> >
> > ...Bill!

RE: [Zen] New Member

[BillSmart]

ED,

Others don't automatically have to embrace zen or Buddhism, or Christianity
or Judaism or Humanism or Materialism, etc...  It's only if these 'others'
are dissatisfied or disappointed with their life that they might seek a
remedy.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 11:34 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member

  

 
Bill,
That may well be the case. 
Does it automatically follow that others ought to spend enormous amounts of
time and energy attempting to attain the same mind-state, and if so, why?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Ed,
> 
> I am convinced that I have met, interacted with and witnessed several
> modern-day zen masters that were able to hold Buddha Mind in their
everyday
> life: Koyru Roshi, Maezumi Roshi, Dae Soen Sa Nim and Tetsugen (Bernard
> Glassman) Roshi before he was a Roshi and was the Senior Monk at ZCLA
under
> Maezumi Roshi immediately come to mind. This is not to say I believe they
> held Buddha Mind 24x7, but certainly could move to that stage pretty much
> whenever they chose to do so.
> 
> I have also interacted with many (100's) others that could hold Buddha
Mind
> in varying degrees of a controlled environment - like performing their
> housekeeping jobs in the zen center, or while they are at a supermarket
> shopping for groceries.
> 
> ...Bill! 
 
> Bill,
> How would one recognize a Buddha Mind in the real world? Has there been or
> is there any roshi  in America who has been an exemplar on how to manifest
> Buddha Nature in the real world?
> --ED 
> > Lana,
> > 
> > There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen practice,
> > especially in the beginning. But eventually you have to bring your
> practice
> > into the 'real world'. Zen is everyday life. You should be able to
> > maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City during
> rush
> > hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
 



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database 5655 (20101128) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 

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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/

<*> Your email settings:
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<*> To change settings online go to:
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<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Chris Austin-Lane]

On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Rose P  wrote:

> The 'why' seems to me to be a very important question, esp for beginners
> like me who are looking for some sort of inspiration (totally not the right
> word, but don't have a better one) from those who have been practicing a
> while (along the lines of.life before zen was sometimes like this,
> life after zen is mainly like this). Curiously the subject of 'why' seems to
> be rarely touched on, with real life examples.


Anything I might say about why would just be making up a story after the
fact which failed to communicate the reality.  And, there's no reason to
expect I particularly understand why I do something.  Someone wrote Three
Pillars of Zen at a time when my father purchased it.  I happened to grow up
in a home with a large metal Thai teaching buddha over the fire place.
 Essentially every thing that has happened in the universe till now comes
into play when my brain is balancing between two proposed courses of
actions.

However, I can certainly tell the story of how I started sitting.

About 6 years ago, my son was about to start walking and my daughter was
about to enter kindergarten.  At my family's traditional August beach trip,
I read a Karen Armstrong book about Buddha, and became convinced that my
attempt to be the primary parent and have paid employment was no longer
right occupation, and so I volunteered to be laid off in our next round of
layoffs.  I had sometime around then read the Three Pillars of Zen and Zen
and the Art of Archery, so I decided if I was quitting jobs based on
Buddha's path, I should try the seated meditation as well.  I read an intro
on how to meditate by Thich Nhat Hanh and found a zafu at our neighborhood
Buddhist knick-nack shop.  I found a local sangha I could sit with, Silver
Spring Zendo, and started sitting.  My goal then was to be able to sit for
25 minutes, which was the time of sitting at the Silver Spring Zendo.  I
signed up for an intro to meditation evening at the zendo about 2 months in
the future and started sitting.  By the time of the intro  came around, I
was able to sit for 25 minutes.

Over the next several years, I sat more and more, and started attending
day-long or 2-3 day retreats.  A big change happened about 1 or 2 years in,
when the group sitting I was attending changed from sitting from 6 am to
7:30 to sitting in the evening, 7 pm - 8 pm or something.  It is a very
interesting difference between sitting first thing in the morning, when your
mind is a bit calmer naturally and sitting at the end of the day when your
thoughts are often full of the days activities.

About 2 years ago, I had to resume full time paid work and we had to move to
California, so I've been more on my own since then.  I make it to a group
sit maybe 2 times a year, and don't really have a personal connection
anywhere here; however, I have just signed up for a week long sesshin this
February with a group that seems nice, that I've been sitting with most
often.

As far as what changes the sitting makes to me, it is difficult to say.  The
first thing I noticed is that, although I would have told anyone that I am a
very slow to anger person, in fact the hot flash of anger pulses through my
arms/blood several times a day.  I feel that I see my life reflected in the
sitting.  When I am tense and overwhelmed, my sitting is tense.  When I am
calmer, my sitting is calmer.  I can see the same ego-centric thoughts,
obviously silly when exposed to the light of attention, repeating over and
over again.  At some point, my self-critical habit wears out and seeing the
thought brings a tiny smile at my human reality, rather than the petty
indulgence the thought wants nor the self-attack that is my habitual
response.

I like to say, that one learns not to get so upset, even at getting upset.

My wife says I'm much more stubborn and willing to push back since I've been
sitting.  Whether that change is useful or not is I think something we
disagree over.

I find I'm a kinder parent on days when I've sat for 30 minutes in the
morning, but of course I'm a kinder parent when I bike 20 miles or take a
nice long bath as well.  I am less likely to drive by an open parking spot
because of being caught up in thoughts of what I should have typed in that
email.  I notice a bit of space between something happening and my response.
 I am starting to trust that I don't have to rush in and do something - when
the time is right to do something, I will be ready and will do it.  Or
someone will - it doesn't matter that I rescue people myself or they figure
it out on their own.

I do see very repeatedly how my "trying to do stuff" is what crinkles up my
self so I miss the basic ease that life has.  Sitting with some goal causes
the nervous system to stress out.  That is just adding oil to the fire.
 Sitting isn't about peace or oneness with all; it's about seeing our own
actual reality as it is.  Sometimes peaceful, often not.  Either way is
fin

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ChrisAustinLane]

On Nov 28, 2010, at 7:33 AM, "Lana M. Gibbons"  wrote:

> Isn't doing anything for gain (even good gain) contrary to Zen in the first 
> place?

I would say that the effort to achieve results is more likely to crinkle up 
your mind than to allow you to stop doing the things that cover up how simple 
life really is.

>From the perspective of sitting, we are all one, and the idea of doing 
>something to benefit oneself makes no sense, there is no separate bag of stuff 
>called Chris. Likewise there are no others out there that need help from me 
>over here. 

Not to say that there isn't beneficial action, but no helper helping a helpee.  

For me at least, practice has been learning how to stop doing stuff to my 
mind/body that cranks me up with various fears and plots. 

Thanks,

Chris Austin-Lane

> 
> -Lana
> 
> "We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life." - 
> William Osler

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 28, 2010, at 7:33, "Lana M. Gibbons"  wrote:

> 
> 
> Isn't doing anything for gain (even good gain) contrary to Zen in the first 
> place?
> 
> -Lana
>  
> "We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life." - 
> William Osler
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 7:41 AM, ED  wrote:
> 
> Chris,
> 
> Do you not believe that there *is* merit in discussing various possible 
> motivations for Zen practice, and what we hope to gain from it for ourelves 
> and/or for humankind (if  anything at all?)
> 
> Thanks, ED
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ChrisAustinLane]

I certainly do not. 

Thanks,

Chris Austin-Lane

On Nov 28, 2010, at 6:41 AM, "ED"  wrote:

> Do you not believe that there *is* merit in discussing various possible 
> motivations for Zen practice, and what we hope to gain from it for ourelves 
> and/or for humankind (if  anything at all?)

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

> 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Rose P]

The 'why' seems to me to be a very important question, esp for beginners like 
me who are looking for some sort of inspiration (totally not the right word, 
but don't have a better one) from those who have been practicing a while (along 
the lines of.life before zen was sometimes like this, life after zen is 
mainly like this). Curiously the subject of 'why' seems to be rarely touched 
on, with real life examples.

Rose

--- On Sun, 11/28/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 28, 2010, 2:41 PM







 



  



  
  
  
Chris, 
Do you not believe that there *is* merit in discussing various possible 
motivations for Zen practice, and what we hope to gain from it for ourelves 
and/or for humankind (if  anything at all?)
Thanks, ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane  wrote:
>
> Pardon my intrusion into this interchange, but I strongly feel that why is a 
> question each person must wrestle with for themselves. 
> 
> You seem to have an intellect very activated with a lot of questions with a 
> lot of energy behind them. If you are content with that way of living, and it 
> seems you are, then you need not undertake a practice of sitting. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris Austin-Lane

 
Bill,
That may well be the case. 
Does it automatically follow that others ought to spend enormous amounts of 
time and energy attempting to attain the same mind-state, and if so, why?
--ED
 
> Ed,
> 
> I am convinced that I have met, interacted with and witnessed several
> modern-day zen masters that were able to hold Buddha Mind in their everyday
> life: Koyru Roshi, Maezumi Roshi, Dae Soen Sa Nim and Tetsugen (Bernard
> Glassman) Roshi before he was a Roshi and was the Senior Monk at ZCLA under
> Maezumi Roshi immediately come to mind. This is not to say I believe they
> held Buddha Mind 24x7, but certainly could move to that stage pretty much
> whenever they chose to do so.
> 
> I have also interacted with many (100's) others that could hold Buddha Mind
> in varying degrees of a controlled environment - like performing their
> housekeeping jobs in the zen center, or while they are at a supermarket
> shopping for groceries.
> 
> ...Bill! 

 
> Bill,
> How would one recognize a Buddha Mind in the real world? Has there been or
> is there any roshi  in America who has been an exemplar on how to manifest
> Buddha Nature in the real world?
> --ED 
 
> > Lana,
> > 
> > There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen practice,
> > especially in the beginning. But eventually you have to bring your
> > practice
> > into the 'real world'. Zen is everyday life. You should be able to
> > maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City during
> > rush
> > hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
 



 





 



  






  

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

Isn't doing anything for gain (even good gain) contrary to Zen in the first
place?

-Lana

"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."
- William Osler



On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 7:41 AM, ED  wrote:

>
> Chris,
>
> Do you not believe that there *is* merit in discussing various possible
> motivations for Zen practice, and what we hope to gain from it for ourelves
> and/or for humankind (if  anything at all?)
>
> Thanks, ED
>

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Chris,

Do you not believe that there *is* merit in discussing various possible
motivations for Zen practice, and what we hope to gain from it for
ourelves and/or for humankind (if  anything at all?)

Thanks, ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane  wrote:
>
> Pardon my intrusion into this interchange, but I strongly feel that
why is a question each person must wrestle with for themselves.
>
> You seem to have an intellect very activated with a lot of questions
with a lot of energy behind them. If you are content with that way of
living, and it seems you are, then you need not undertake a practice of
sitting.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris Austin-Lane




Bill,

That may well be the case.

Does it automatically follow that others ought to spend enormous amounts
of time and energy attempting to attain the same mind-state, and if so,
why?

--ED



> Ed,
>
> I am convinced that I have met, interacted with and witnessed several
> modern-day zen masters that were able to hold Buddha Mind in their
everyday
> life: Koyru Roshi, Maezumi Roshi, Dae Soen Sa Nim and Tetsugen
(Bernard
> Glassman) Roshi before he was a Roshi and was the Senior Monk at ZCLA
under
> Maezumi Roshi immediately come to mind. This is not to say I believe
they
> held Buddha Mind 24x7, but certainly could move to that stage pretty
much
> whenever they chose to do so.
>
> I have also interacted with many (100's) others that could hold Buddha
Mind
> in varying degrees of a controlled environment - like performing their
> housekeeping jobs in the zen center, or while they are at a
supermarket
> shopping for groceries.
>
> ...Bill!




> Bill,
> How would one recognize a Buddha Mind in the real world? Has there
been or
> is there any roshi  in America who has been an exemplar on how to
manifest
> Buddha Nature in the real world?
> --ED



> > Lana,
> >
> > There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen
practice,
> > especially in the beginning. But eventually you have to bring your
> > practice
> > into the 'real world'. Zen is everyday life. You should be able to
> > maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City
during
> > rush
> > hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.
> >
> > ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ChrisAustinLane]

Pardon my intrusion into this interchange, but I strongly feel that why is a 
question each person must wrestle with for themselves. 

You seem to have an intellect very activated with a lot of questions with a lot 
of energy behind them. If you are content with that way of living, and it seems 
you are, then you need not undertake a practice of sitting. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 27, 2010, at 8:33, "ED"  wrote:

> why




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Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Bill,

That may well be the case.

Does it automatically follow that others ought to spend enormous amounts
of time and energy attempting to attain the same mind-state, and if so,
why?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Ed,
>
> I am convinced that I have met, interacted with and witnessed several
> modern-day zen masters that were able to hold Buddha Mind in their
everyday
> life: Koyru Roshi, Maezumi Roshi, Dae Soen Sa Nim and Tetsugen
(Bernard
> Glassman) Roshi before he was a Roshi and was the Senior Monk at ZCLA
under
> Maezumi Roshi immediately come to mind. This is not to say I believe
they
> held Buddha Mind 24x7, but certainly could move to that stage pretty
much
> whenever they chose to do so.
>
> I have also interacted with many (100's) others that could hold Buddha
Mind
> in varying degrees of a controlled environment - like performing their
> housekeeping jobs in the zen center, or while they are at a
supermarket
> shopping for groceries.
>
> ...Bill!




> Bill,
> How would one recognize a Buddha Mind in the real world? Has there
been or
> is there any roshi  in America who has been an exemplar on how to
manifest
> Buddha Nature in the real world?
> --ED


> > Lana,
> >
> > There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen
practice,
> > especially in the beginning. But eventually you have to bring your
> practice
> > into the 'real world'. Zen is everyday life. You should be able to
> > maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City
during
> rush
> > hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.
> >
> > ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] New Member

[siska_cen]

Hello Lana,

I'm pretty new to this forum too and I think we can all learn a lot here. 

A things I learned from my practice that may be relevant here:
- it is always difficult if I label people and everything around me as worldly 
and at the same time not liking anything worldly. First, labelling is a result 
of discriminating mind. Then, not accepting things as they are is a guaranteed 
dissatisfaction.
- if I'm upset because of something that you do, I have a problem, not you. If 
you're upset because something that I do, that's none of my concerns.

Have a nice weekend, and if you celebrate thanksgiving, happy thanksgiving!

siska
--Original Message--
From: Lana M. Gibbons
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
Sent: Nov 25, 2010 07:29

?0?2 It seems to me that traditional buddhists were able to step away from the 
world and dedicate themselves to their studies,?0?2some did not even have to 
do?0?2chores!?0?2 Only the teachers really needed to interact with outsiders 
and even then, they only really interacted with those who were interested in 
learning (or thought they were interested in learning). ?0?2 In the reality of 
today's world, unless?0?2one was born into a rich family, one has?0?2to work 
for their living.?0?2 One has to be a part of a society made up of the 
self-indulgent and dualistic,?0?2somehow maintaining no-mind?0?2despite 
constant contact?0?2with those who truly are suffering: all while knowing 
self-realization is something they have to attain on their own. ?0?2 -Lana ?0?2 
?0?2 On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Rose P  wrote: 
?0?2 ?0?2 Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this 
forum about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world. Rose ?0?2 
?0?2 ?0?2So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world? ?0?2  



Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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RE: [Zen] New Member

[BillSmart]

Ed,

I am convinced that I have met, interacted with and witnessed several
modern-day zen masters that were able to hold Buddha Mind in their everyday
life: Koyru Roshi, Maezumi Roshi, Dae Soen Sa Nim and Tetsugen (Bernard
Glassman) Roshi before he was a Roshi and was the Senior Monk at ZCLA under
Maezumi Roshi immediately come to mind.  This is not to say I believe they
held Buddha Mind 24x7, but certainly could move to that stage pretty much
whenever they chose to do so.

I have also interacted with many (100's) others that could hold Buddha Mind
in varying degrees of a controlled environment - like performing their
housekeeping jobs in the zen center, or while they are at a supermarket
shopping for groceries.

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 10:07 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member

  

Bill,
How would one recognize a Buddha Mind in the real world? Has there been or
is there any roshi  in America who has been an exemplar on how to manifest
Buddha Nature in the real world?
--ED 
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Lana,
> 
> There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen practice,
> especially in the beginning. But eventually you have to bring your
practice
> into the 'real world'. Zen is everyday life. You should be able to
> maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City during
rush
> hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.
> 
> ...Bill!
 



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Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Re: [Zen] New Member

[Maria Lopez]

Yes Lana, you're right,  there is a difference between being cold and being 
thought of being cold.  We should look into oneselves with no fear of the 
findings which one of them we are.  Perhaps we are a bit of one of them, 
perhaps we're a bit of both of them, perhaps any of them...who knows.  Only by 
looking into oneselves we can see what really is in us. 
Mayka  

--- On Thu, 25/11/10, Lana M. Gibbons  wrote:


From: Lana M. Gibbons 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 18:43


  



There is a difference between being cold and being thought of as "cold". 


-Lana

 
"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life." - 
William Osler



On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Maria Lopez  wrote:
























Lana:
 
Yes, you have a point here and agree.  I often have experienced the same.  At 
the same time and this is not addressed personal to you as criticism of any 
kind but purely as a meanings of sharing with the Buddha in you,  in me,  and 
every body else.
 
A person who genuinely believes of being a zen, Buddhist practitioner but whose 
becomes cold as a stone for fear of being sometimes "contaminated" by dualism, 
negative energies of all kinds or by the ones who don't share one views, ideas, 
way of sensing life...then the practise has a twist and becomes harmful to that 
person and also to all life around that person since 

we're not separated from anything not even from samsara.  To me one of the 
greatest beauties of zen as real practicality and well being, is that generates 
and continuously shares compassion with all beings and doesn't even know of 
doing.  
 
There is the words of a Spanish song that says something like this,  amongst 
other things:
" I'm like the reed that bends but never breaks and always kept up"
 
Mayka
 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Anthony Wu]

Chris,
 
You are saying babies are good zen practitioners. As Jodi said, dogs are as 
well.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 25/11/10, ChrisAustinLane  wrote:


From: ChrisAustinLane 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" 
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 11:11 PM


  




Babies do not split life into self and other.


Also they do not get distracted by abstract worries. They are fully present in 
the moment. They are not much concerned with stuff outside of their own 
internal needs, but that is appropriate. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 24, 2010, at 17:33, "ED"  wrote:





 
Lana,
The way in which babies normally and naturally behave is to be obsessed with 
'I/me/mine' (it's ego), with no regard whatsoever for the needs of its mother 
or anyone else - and without which attitude it would not survive.
In short, if babies had no egos, the only babies who survived for more than a 
few days would be 'buddhas' - and the population of human buddhas on this earth 
would be nil.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Lana M. Gibbons"  wrote:
>
> No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack of
> duality, the awareness, the "no-mind" - to discard all of what I have
> "learned" so far would be to discard my true self.
> 
> The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are possessive,
> materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect others to
> serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being.
> 
> If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need for
> Buddhism to exist.
> 
> -Lana

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

I have no one that knows me well.

-Lana

"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."
- William Osler



On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 8:48 AM, ChrisAustinLane wrote:

>
>
> It is very easy to feel there is no difference between self and other while
> alone, whether under a tree outside or in a server room. Maintaining that
> understanding while a person that knows you well and is really mad at you
> and is in some conflict with you is a different challenge.
>
> I sometimes joke that my koan that I am working on is 'my wife and I are
> not  two.'
>
> I do find that my getting upset at other people is showing I have some idea
> that reality should be different than it is. The nice thing about an
> intimate relationship in the zen context is that it is much harder to fool
> yourself about your level of maturity than when you are more alone. I
> personally also find that while he various forms of moving meditation are a
> good way to maintain calm awareness, zazen is unsurpassed for establishing
> it in the first place.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris Austin-Lane
> Sent from a cell phone
>

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

There is a difference between being cold and being thought of as "cold".

-Lana

"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."
- William Osler



On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Maria Lopez wrote:

>
>
> *Lana:*
>
> *Yes, you have a point here and agree.  I often have experienced the same.
>  At the same time and this is not addressed personal to you as criticism of
> any kind but purely as a meanings of sharing with the Buddha in you,  in
> me,  and every body else.*
> **
> *A person who genuinely believes of being a zen, Buddhist practitioner but
> whose becomes cold as a stone for fear of being sometimes "contaminated" by
> dualism, negative energies of all kinds or by the ones who don't share one
> views, ideas, way of sensing life...then the practise has a twist and
> becomes harmful to that person and also to all life around that person since
> *
>  we're not separated from anything not even from samsara.  To me one of
> the greatest beauties of zen as real practicality and well being, is that
> generates and continuously shares compassion with all beings and doesn't
> even know of doing.
>
> There is the words of a Spanish song that says something like this,
>  amongst other things:
> " I'm like the reed that bends but never breaks and always kept up"
>
> Mayka
>
>

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Maria Lopez]

Lana:
 
Yes, you have a point here and agree.  I often have experienced the same.  At 
the same time and this is not addressed personal to you as criticism of any 
kind but purely as a meanings of sharing with the Buddha in you,  in me,  and 
every body else.
 
A person who genuinely believes of being a zen, Buddhist practitioner but whose 
becomes cold as a stone for fear of being sometimes "contaminated" by dualism, 
negative energies of all kinds or by the ones who don't share one views, ideas, 
way of sensing life...then the practise has a twist and becomes harmful to that 
person and also to all life around that person since 

we're not separated from anything not even from samsara.  To me one of the 
greatest beauties of zen as real practicality and well being, is that generates 
and continuously shares compassion with all beings and doesn't even know of 
doing.  
 
There is the words of a Spanish song that says something like this,  amongst 
other things:
" I'm like the reed that bends but never breaks and always kept up"
 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Thu, 25/11/10, Lana M. Gibbons  wrote:


From: Lana M. Gibbons 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 11:06


  



This is the very issue - to be Zen is to be "frozen", "cold", "selfish" to 
those who are still stuck in dualism.  They can not fathom, in their context of 
the world, that it is possible for someone to believe/support/accept/embody 
polar opposites.  They do not realize the best compassion is given 
spontaneously, without thought/premeditation, without it being asked/demanded 
for. 


-Lana

 
"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life." - 
William Osler



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Maria Lopez  wrote: 






Actually I like him better as a non practitioner because in this way he's warm, 
very affectionate, passionate... and all mine! (I know this last remark is 
samsara but don't care.  I don't think I coud handle to have a frozen 
practitioner as a boyfriend) 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

 Perhaps Chris is trying to say that "our sufferings are often caused 
by having expectations of others, while babies do not."Our job in 
this life is to practice Six Act of Perfection without expectation.


:-)

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 11/25/2010 7:11 AM, ChrisAustinLane wrote:

Babies do not split life into self and other.

Also they do not get distracted by abstract worries. They are fully 
present in the moment. They are not much concerned with stuff outside 
of their own internal needs, but that is appropriate.


Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 24, 2010, at 17:33, "ED" > wrote:



Lana,

The way in which babies normally and naturally behave is to be 
obsessed with 'I/me/mine' (it's ego), with no regard whatsoever for 
the needs of its mother or anyone else - and without which attitude 
it would not survive.


In short, if babies had no egos, the only babies who survived for 
more than a few days would be 'buddhas' - and the population of human 
buddhas on this earth would be nil.


--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com , 
"Lana M. Gibbons"  wrote:

>
> No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the 
lack of

> duality, the awareness, the "no-mind" - to discard all of what I have
> "learned" so far would be to discard my true self.
>
> The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are 
possessive,
> materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect 
others to

> serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being.
>
> If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no 
need for

> Buddhism to exist.
>
> -Lana

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ChrisAustinLane]

It is very easy to feel there is no difference between self and other while 
alone, whether under a tree outside or in a server room. Maintaining that 
understanding while a person that knows you well and is really mad at you and 
is in some conflict with you is a different challenge. 

I sometimes joke that my koan that I am working on is 'my wife and I are not  
two.' 

I do find that my getting upset at other people is showing I have some idea 
that reality should be different than it is. The nice thing about an intimate 
relationship in the zen context is that it is much harder to fool yourself 
about your level of maturity than when you are more alone. I personally also 
find that while he various forms of moving meditation are a good way to 
maintain calm awareness, zazen is unsurpassed for establishing it in the first 
place. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 25, 2010, at 3:47, "Lana M. Gibbons"  wrote:

> 
> 
> For me the issue is not location, it has nothing to do with noise or 
> hustle-bustle.  It has to do with non-superficial interaction with people, 
> which I guess in and of itself is the issue because that is not the Way.
> 
> Thank you for the realization.
> 
> -Lana
>  
> "We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life." - 
> William Osler
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:50 PM,  wrote:
> Lana,
> 
> There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen practice,
> especially in the beginning.  But eventually you have to bring your practice
> into the 'real world'.  Zen is everyday life.  You should be able to
> maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City during rush
> hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ChrisAustinLane]

Babies do not split life into self and other.

Also they do not get distracted by abstract worries. They are fully present in 
the moment. They are not much concerned with stuff outside of their own 
internal needs, but that is appropriate. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 24, 2010, at 17:33, "ED"  wrote:

> 
> 
>  
> 
> Lana,
> 
> The way in which babies normally and naturally behave is to be obsessed with 
> 'I/me/mine' (it's ego), with no regard whatsoever for the needs of its mother 
> or anyone else - and without which attitude it would not survive.
> 
> In short, if babies had no egos, the only babies who survived for more than a 
> few days would be 'buddhas' - and the population of human buddhas on this 
> earth would be nil.
> 
> --ED
> 
>  
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Lana M. Gibbons"  
> wrote:
> >
> > No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack of
> > duality, the awareness, the "no-mind" - to discard all of what I have
> > "learned" so far would be to discard my true self.
> > 
> > The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are possessive,
> > materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect others to
> > serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being.
> > 
> > If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need for
> > Buddhism to exist.
> > 
> > -Lana
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Anthony,

A human succeeds in fulfilling the three essential goals of  'eat,
survive , reproduce' is due to the power of his 'ego' to focus on them.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> ED,
>
> You say:  if babies had no egos, the only babies who survived for more
than a few days would be 'buddhas' - and the population of human buddhas
on this earth would be nil.
> --ED




> Is there any logic in saying that? For someone of low intelligence, if
the said babies survive, the population of worldly buddhas will expand
dramatically.
>
> Anthony

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

In my experience, there is an innate knowing when encountering another
person currently occupying the same mind as you do.

-Lana

"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."
- William Osler



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:06 PM, ED  wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> How would one recognize a Buddha Mind in the real world? Has there been or
> is there any roshi  in America who has been an exemplar on how to manifest
> Buddha Nature in the real world?
>
> --ED
>

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

For me the issue is not location, it has nothing to do with noise or
hustle-bustle.  It has to do with non-superficial interaction with people,
which I guess in and of itself is the issue because that is not the Way.

Thank you for the realization.

-Lana

"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."
- William Osler



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:50 PM,  wrote:

> Lana,
>
> There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen practice,
> especially in the beginning.  But eventually you have to bring your
> practice
> into the 'real world'.  Zen is everyday life.  You should be able to
> maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City during
> rush
> hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.
>
> ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

>
>
> [Bill!]  Why does this attitude of other people make you sad?  If what you
> say is true then your very life is providing them with an example of a
> content human being.  You can do no more unless they specifically ask you
> for guidance.
>

Because they can not understand I am (usually) content.  How is one an
effective example to others when others can not see?  I suppose I am an
example should they want to see.

I tried to have a relationship.  But monks didn't really do that, did they?
 After all these relationships I've had over the course of my life, I think
I've finally learned that for me to have a relationship with someone, they
really need to occupy the same mind as I do.


> [Bill!]  You correctly see that 'gifts' that are given with an expectation
> of reward - like a thanks, are not truly gifts.  They are pre-payments or
> bribes.  You cannot save them from being miserable.  You can only save
> yourself, and by doing can set an example for them.  If they are interested
> in your example they'll ask.  Otherwise there's not much you can do.
>

That is an excellent way to put the issue of "gifts".

[Bill!]  You can teach by coddling and nurturing or teach with 'tough love'.
> Zen is mostly known for the 'tough love' approach (leaving a prospective
> student to sit at the entrance to the zen master's cave for a year before
> he/she has shown sufficient mettle to be accepted as a student), but some
> historical zen master's have used the more touchy-feely approach.  In this
> era most zen masters/teachers have a more soft approach - at least in the
> beginning.
>

I don't believe I have much coddling and nurturing in me to teach with.  It
simply does not come naturally except for the random instance of no-thought
compassion.  Someone who expects coddling learns best from not having it.


> So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
> [Bill!]  That would depend on what role you want to play for them, or if
> you
> want to play a role at all.  If you want to play the role of teacher to
> them
> I'd advise you to develop teaching skills that cover the entire spectrum of
> 'tough love' to 'grandmotherly nurturing'.  Then you adapt YOURSELF and
> your
> teaching style to the particular student.  If you're not interested in
> being
> a teacher then it really doesn't matter how you interact with others as
> long
> as it is genuine - no role - you are not better off for your happiness and
> they are not worse off for their materialism.  You are just you and they
> are
> just them.  I've often said zen is the ultimate WYSIWYG (a computer term
> for
> 'what you see is what you get'.  Just be Lana.  That's more than enough.
>

If I were to choose to be a teacher, I would not choose the people in
question as students.


> If 'just being Lana' causes YOU discomfort (as you've described above) I'd
> suggest you continue to re-examine your situation to try to determine WHY
> this discomfort exists.  I can't tell you WHY it exists for you, but I can
> tell you the discomfort is created within you, not forced upon you by
> others.
>

It exists because I am connected to everyone on the mental plane yet there
is no one on the physical plane for me to truly relate to.  The people I
interact with on the physical plane are lost, they do not wish to learn.  I
guess this is one of the few worldly desires I have left - to be physically
close to another person.


> Of course I do this with zen practice - mostly zazen - but as you've
> pointed
> out at the beginning of your post this is not absolutely necessary.
>

I realized tonight that I have indeed been practicing forms of meditation
all my life, yet I never considered them such until I gained the experience
of zazen.

When I was really young, I could not fall asleep fast.  It would sometimes
take me hours to settle, which didn't work well with my extremely high sleep
requirement at the time (10-12 hours).  I realized the culprit was thought
and started a bedtime "journal".  The thoughts would fall away from my mind
as my hand conveyed them on paper - I no longer analyzed, I simply recorded.
 I did this for many years until I no longer needed the pen and paper to
quiet my mind.

For a long time after that I achieved a quiet mind by reading fiction (still
do, from time to time).  I don't know if there is something particular in
how I read, but I simply "observe" what goes on in the book, I don't think
about it.  Errant thoughts that pop up while reading I sit back for a moment
to let them pass then continue on.

I have always had a high requirement for nature.  To see trees, grass,
mountains - my mind naturally harmonizes with them and I find I am too
caught up in observation to think even when I want to.  When I was really
young, I used to lean against a tree trunk and visualize it anchoring me, my
spirit flowing down it's roots and feeling the cool dirt - I no longer need
that focus to empty my mind in the presence of nature.

Over the last year

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

This is the very issue - to be Zen is to be "frozen", "cold", "selfish" to
those who are still stuck in dualism.  They can not fathom, in their context
of the world, that it is possible for someone to
believe/support/accept/embody polar opposites.  They do not realize the best
compassion is given spontaneously, without thought/premeditation, without it
being asked/demanded for.

-Lana

"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."
- William Osler



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Maria Lopez wrote:
>
> Actually I like him better as a non practitioner because in this way he's
> warm, very affectionate, passionate... and all mine! (I know this last
> remark is samsara but don't care.  I don't think I coud handle to have a
> frozen practitioner as a boyfriend)
>

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

Yes.

I have been privileged to have access to something that when I've tried to
explain what it is, comes out very techno-babble (I work in computers).
 I've referred to it as a "server cluster" of minds - a cluster is a setup
in which computers share spare resources to communally "think" on the same
thing.  It is something in the way I learn that has been there for several
years, and I suspect it was always there, although in the beginning I
believe I was less aware of it and not trusting of it.  When I encounter new
things I observe, I don't think (most of the time).  Those observations get
sent immediately to my subconscious mind and I trust in it to "spit out" the
answer - sometimes the process takes days, sometimes months, and
occasionally it is years before a concept echoes back to me with its answer.

This same something is what let me perceive (among many other things) that
every being is a part of the world, no one truly leaving it, simply being
reborn - with no need for a religion to tell me such.

And now I read about the one mind, the buddha mind and I wonder if what I
think of as a cluster of minds is indeed this "Buddha-Net".  If that is
indeed the case, we are all Buddhas, most people just don't know it yet.

-Lana

"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."
- William Osler



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 6:22 PM, ED  wrote:

>
>
>
> Lana,
>
> From your own experience (which is the only non-illusory mode of sensing
> true reality that is accepted on this zen forum,) have you any evidence
> that 'buddhas' exist?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --ED
>
>
>

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Anthony Wu]

ED,
 
You say:  if babies had no egos, the only babies who survived for more than a 
few days would be 'buddhas' - and the population of human buddhas on this earth 
would be nil.
--ED
 
Is there any logic in saying that? For someone of low intelligence, if the said 
babies survive, the population of worldly buddhas will expand dramatically.
 
Anthony


--- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 9:33 AM


  




 
Lana,
The way in which babies normally and naturally behave is to be obsessed with 
'I/me/mine' (it's ego), with no regard whatsoever for the needs of its mother 
or anyone else - and without which attitude it would not survive.
In short, if babies had no egos, the only babies who survived for more than a 
few days would be 'buddhas' - and the population of human buddhas on this earth 
would be nil.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Lana M. Gibbons"  wrote:
>
> No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack of
> duality, the awareness, the "no-mind" - to discard all of what I have
> "learned" so far would be to discard my true self.
> 
> The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are possessive,
> materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect others to
> serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being.
> 
> If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need for
> Buddhism to exist.
> 
> -Lana

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明]

 Dear Lana,

I was taught that all encounters of ours are "form".  And all forms are 
caused by some cause and each cause is caused by generations of causes, 
visible or invisible.  We call these causes karma for simplicity sake.


Please try to fulfill every encounter, because there is a reason for it 
to be there.  Fulfillment is the reasons for us to be here.


If we live separate from these encounters, instead of fulfilling them, 
then these encounters will recycle.  That's what reincarnation is.


Through these fulfillment, maybe resistive to your ego at the beginning, 
our wisdom grow.   Then gradually our heart will shine through.


JM

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 11/24/2010 12:56 PM, Lana M. Gibbons wrote:

Greetings,
I apparently have been practicing a number of principles of Zen for 
quite some time, albeit completely unintentionally.  A lot of what I 
am reading now are things I have realized through experience without 
external guidance: It is very refreshing to see there are teachings 
for this that I have stumbled on.
One thing I am having a lot of trouble with recently is interaction 
with others who simply don't understand - people so stuck in their 
dualities that they can't begin to comprehend I just don't have them, 
people who are so immersed in the material world that they can't 
conceive that I am happy without many possessions, people so focused 
on having external influences complete them that they seem to be cut 
off from simply being.  This issue has been so pervasive recently that 
I have went from existing with a peaceful thought-free mind (no-mind?) 
to one that has been sad on occasion.  I have never needed meditation 
to achieve that state, but I am starting it to see if it helps.
It seems the issues most frequently presented are that people who feel 
I am important to them seem to keep insisting on doing things for me, 
then being frustrated that I am not ecstatic for their gestures (nor 
am I upset, those gestures simply are what they are - transient, 
typically materialistic things that are nice, but not necessary to my 
wellbeing).  They expect to be thanked as if I had needed their action 
like food or water.  They seem to expect me to sustain them in a 
similar fashion.  And thus they make their own misery over it when I 
simply am who I am.  I've tried explaining, but they are not ready to 
learn.
I have been called "cold" or "unsympathetic".  It seems people expect 
me to make assumptions on the intention (or nonintention) behind their 
actions.  Yet they do them and by doing them they are those actions, 
yet they take no responsibility for them.  Even more they seem to 
expect everyone, including nature itself to excuse their actions, 
nullify any effect or consequences those actions may have had.  To me 
it is what it is - yet this makes them miserable, as if I am expected 
to wipe away their remorse by reassuring them they were at the mercy 
of some power other than their own.

So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
-Lana

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Bill,

How would one recognize a Buddha Mind in the real world? Has there been
or is there any roshi  in America who has been an exemplar on how to
manifest Buddha Nature in the real world?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> Lana,
>
> There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen
practice,
> especially in the beginning. But eventually you have to bring your
practice
> into the 'real world'. Zen is everyday life. You should be able to
> maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City
during rush
> hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.
>
> ...Bill!

RE: [Zen] New Member

[BillSmart]

Lana,

There are times that quietude and solitude are helpful in zen practice,
especially in the beginning.  But eventually you have to bring your practice
into the 'real world'.  Zen is everyday life.  You should be able to
maintain Buddha Mind in the middle of Times Square New York City during rush
hour just as well as in a cave in Tibet.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lana M. Gibbons
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 7:30 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member

  
It seems to me that traditional buddhists were able to step away from the
world and dedicate themselves to their studies, some did not even have to
do chores!  Only the teachers really needed to interact with outsiders and
even then, they only really interacted with those who were interested in
learning (or thought they were interested in learning).
 
In the reality of today's world, unless one was born into a rich family, one
has to work for their living.  One has to be a part of a society made up of
the self-indulgent and dualistic, somehow maintaining no-mind despite
constant contact with those who truly are suffering: all while knowing
self-realization is something they have to attain on their own.
 
-Lana
 
 
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Rose P  wrote:
 
 
Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this forum
about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world. 
Rose 
 
 
 So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
 



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RE: [Zen] New Member

[BillSmart]

Lana,

My comments are embedded below:

Greetings,
 
I apparently have been practicing a number of principles of Zen for quite
some time, albeit completely unintentionally.  A lot of what I am reading
now are things I have realized through experience without external
guidance: It is very refreshing to see there are teachings for this that I
have stumbled on.
 
One thing I am having a lot of trouble with recently is interaction with
others who simply don't understand - people so stuck in their dualities that
they can't begin to comprehend I just don't have them, people who are so
immersed in the material world that they can't conceive that I am happy
without many possessions, people so focused on having external influences
complete them that they seem to be cut off from simply being.  This issue
has been so pervasive recently that I have went from existing with a
peaceful thought-free mind (no-mind?) to one that has been sad on occasion. 
I have never needed meditation to achieve that state, but I am starting it
to see if it helps.
[Bill!]  Why does this attitude of other people make you sad?  If what you
say is true then your very life is providing them with an example of a
content human being.  You can do no more unless they specifically ask you
for guidance.
 
It seems the issues most frequently presented are that people who feel I
am important to them seem to keep insisting on doing things for me, then
being frustrated that I am not ecstatic for their gestures (nor am I upset,
those gestures simply are what they are - transient, typically materialistic
things that are nice, but not necessary to my wellbeing).  They expect to be
thanked as if I had needed their action like food or water.  They seem
to expect me to sustain them in a similar fashion.  And thus they make their
own misery over it when I simply am who I am.  I've tried explaining, but
they are not ready to learn.
[Bill!]  You correctly see that 'gifts' that are given with an expectation
of reward - like a thanks, are not truly gifts.  They are pre-payments or
bribes.  You cannot save them from being miserable.  You can only save
yourself, and by doing can set an example for them.  If they are interested
in your example they'll ask.  Otherwise there's not much you can do.
 
I have been called "cold" or "unsympathetic".  It seems people expect me to
make assumptions on the intention (or nonintention) behind their actions. 
Yet they do them and by doing them they are those actions, yet they take no
responsibility for them.  Even more they seem to expect everyone, including
nature itself to excuse their actions, nullify any effect or consequences
those actions may have had.  To me it is what it is - yet this makes
them miserable, as if I am expected to wipe away their remorse by reassuring
them they were at the mercy of some power other than their own.
[Bill!]  You can teach by coddling and nurturing or teach with 'tough love'.
Zen is mostly known for the 'tough love' approach (leaving a prospective
student to sit at the entrance to the zen master's cave for a year before
he/she has shown sufficient mettle to be accepted as a student), but some
historical zen master's have used the more touchy-feely approach.  In this
era most zen masters/teachers have a more soft approach - at least in the
beginning.  
 
So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
[Bill!]  That would depend on what role you want to play for them, or if you
want to play a role at all.  If you want to play the role of teacher to them
I'd advise you to develop teaching skills that cover the entire spectrum of
'tough love' to 'grandmotherly nurturing'.  Then you adapt YOURSELF and your
teaching style to the particular student.  If you're not interested in being
a teacher then it really doesn't matter how you interact with others as long
as it is genuine - no role - you are not better off for your happiness and
they are not worse off for their materialism.  You are just you and they are
just them.  I've often said zen is the ultimate WYSIWYG (a computer term for
'what you see is what you get'.  Just be Lana.  That's more than enough.

If 'just being Lana' causes YOU discomfort (as you've described above) I'd
suggest you continue to re-examine your situation to try to determine WHY
this discomfort exists.  I can't tell you WHY it exists for you, but I can
tell you the discomfort is created within you, not forced upon you by
others.

Of course I do this with zen practice - mostly zazen - but as you've pointed
out at the beginning of your post this is not absolutely necessary.

Welcome to the Zen Forum!

...Bill!
 
-Lana



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Re: [Zen] New Member

[Maria Lopez]

Lana:
 
When I'm into the discriminative mind I see and experience everything as you 
are giving a description here. But when I regain inner calm and serenity,   at 
those moments the world seems perfect in its imperfection. Actually at those 
moments I see no perfection or imperfection.  Have you ever observe in yourself 
that depending on what state of mind you were that is what you were seeing?. 
 
 If a teaching is creating problems with you interacting with your closest 
people, making you suffer...then you are paying a high price because of an idea 
you have about how others should see the world according to your way of 
seeing.  Throw away the idea and you may find both the way out here plus the 
heart of the teaching that you throw away. 
 
My boyfriend is not a practitioner and I won't change him for any 
practitioner.  And here you go, what is not of any use I throw it away and 
whatever helps me with the relationship with my boyfriend and family I keep 
it.  Still experimenting here.  Being foolish often.  Dwelling in samsara with 
frequency.  But it's ok.  I'm learning how to integrate the practise without 
imposing to my boyfriend this practise.  
 
Actually I like him better as a non practitioner because in this way he's warm, 
very affectionate, passionate... and all mine! (I know this last remark is 
samsara but don't care.  I don't think I coud handle to have a frozen 
practitioner as a boyfriend)
 
I do empathise with your difficulties here.  It's not always easy for me 
either. We all go up and down.  Zen is very far of being an easy practise.  But 
it can be done as a part-time bases! .  A bit in samsara and a bit in the 
Buddha.  Why not?.  No rush!
 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Thu, 25/11/10, Lana M. Gibbons  wrote:


From: Lana M. Gibbons 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 0:29


  




It seems to me that traditional buddhists were able to step away from the world 
and dedicate themselves to their studies, some did not even have to do chores!  
Only the teachers really needed to interact with outsiders and even then, they 
only really interacted with those who were interested in learning (or thought 
they were interested in learning).
 
In the reality of today's world, unless one was born into a rich family, one 
has to work for their living.  One has to be a part of a society made up of the 
self-indulgent and dualistic, somehow maintaining no-mind despite constant 
contact with those who truly are suffering: all while knowing self-realization 
is something they have to attain on their own.
 
-Lana
 
 
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Rose P  wrote:
 


 




Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this forum 
about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world. 

Rose 

 
 

 So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Lana,

The way in which babies normally and naturally behave is to be obsessed
with 'I/me/mine' (it's ego), with no regard whatsoever for the needs of
its mother or anyone else - and without which attitude it would not
survive.

In short, if babies had no egos, the only babies who survived for more
than a few days would be 'buddhas' - and the population of human buddhas
on this earth would be nil.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Lana M. Gibbons" 
wrote:
>
> No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack
of
> duality, the awareness, the "no-mind" - to discard all of what I have
> "learned" so far would be to discard my true self.
>
> The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are
possessive,
> materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect
others to
> serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being.
>
> If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need
for
> Buddhism to exist.
>
> -Lana

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Rose and Lana,

For an unenlightened response, the question can only be answered on a
case by case basis.

For an enlightened response, the answer is 'just THIS' in every moment.
(But that may infuriate the other if he/she is unaware of the rules of
the game that you are playing from!)

---ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Rose P  wrote:
>
> Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this
forum about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world.
>
> Rose

Re: [Zen] New Member

[ED]

Lana,

>From your own experience (which is the only non-illusory mode of sensing
true reality that is accepted on this zen forum,) have you any evidence
that 'buddhas' exist?

Thanks,

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Lana M. Gibbons" 
wrote:
>
> No, Thank You. I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack
of
> duality, the awareness, the "no-mind" - to discard all of what I have
> "learned" so far would be to discard my true self.
>
> The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are
possessive,
> materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect
others to
> serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being.
>
> If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need
for
> Buddhism to exist.
>
> -Lana

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Maria Lopez]

Lana:
 
The idea of the child is not as the silly child but the childlike.  Very 
different things.  The child is inmature.  The childlike is mature and wise 
without knowing of being.
 
Mayka

--- On Wed, 24/11/10, Lana M. Gibbons  wrote:


From: Lana M. Gibbons 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 23:53


  




No, Thank You.  I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack of 
duality, the awareness, the "no-mind" - to discard all of what I have "learned" 
so far would be to discard my true self.
 
The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are possessive, 
materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect others to 
serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being.
 
If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need for 
Buddhism to exist.
 
-Lana



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Maria Lopez  wrote:
















Lana wrote: 
So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
 
Dear Lana:
Have a warm welcome to us..  My advice here to you will be that of forget all 
you have learnt so far and start all over completely a new.  As if you were a 
baby recently borne who has everything to learn, to explore, to experience.  
Visualise the baby you were and observe the personality and way of doing of 
that baby.  Or when you were five years old with no concepts or ideas but 
with that huge awe and curiosity for everything?.  Can you remember how very 
attentive then,  you were able to listen to anyone talking to you about 
something?.  Can you remember how attentive you were to everything that was 
going on?Remember the little child and be simply yourself in that 
simplicity,  Natural with your laugh and your tears.  Free yourself of the 
weight of the thought and ideas accumulated through the years.    Don't be 
afraid of being yourself.  Give up about enlightenment and just be happy.  
 
I interact well with people but then I'm very lazy in cultivating  them and 
most of them give up on me!. But that is not their fault but mine all alone.
 
Hope you have lots and lots of feedback for your question.
Mayka 

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Maria Lopez]

Thanks Rose;  Agree with you and Lana.  Let's heat this thread!, though imput 
is not a guarantee  amongst the readers of zen, philosophers, religious 
discussions,  koans headacheWhat a slap in the face to make us all come 
back to the real world of the living!..
 
Would you be so kind to do some sharing about it?.  Do you interact well with 
people?.  Do you have difficulties?.  What are your difficulties about? How do 
you resolve them?.  
My apologies by all the shooting questioning which only intention is made to 
re-heat the thread. 
 
Mayka

--- On Wed, 24/11/10, Rose P  wrote:


From: Rose P 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 23:35


  







Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this forum 
about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world.

Rose

--- On Wed, 11/24/10, Lana M. Gibbons  wrote:


From: Lana M. Gibbons 
Subject: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 2010, 8:56 PM


  


Greetings,
 
I apparently have been practicing a number of principles of Zen for quite some 
time, albeit completely unintentionally.  A lot of what I am reading now are 
things I have realized through experience without external guidance: It is very 
refreshing to see there are teachings for this that I have stumbled on.
 
One thing I am having a lot of trouble with recently is interaction with others 
who simply don't understand - people so stuck in their dualities that they 
can't begin to comprehend I just don't have them, people who are so immersed in 
the material world that they can't conceive that I am happy without many 
possessions, people so focused on having external influences complete them that 
they seem to be cut off from simply being.  This issue has been so pervasive 
recently that I have went from existing with a peaceful thought-free mind 
(no-mind?) to one that has been sad on occasion.  I have never needed 
meditation to achieve that state, but I am starting it to see if it helps.
 
It seems the issues most frequently presented are that people who feel I 
am important to them seem to keep insisting on doing things for me, then being 
frustrated that I am not ecstatic for their gestures (nor am I upset, those 
gestures simply are what they are - transient, typically materialistic things 
that are nice, but not necessary to my wellbeing).  They expect to be thanked 
as if I had needed their action like food or water.  They seem to expect me to 
sustain them in a similar fashion.  And thus they make their own misery over it 
when I simply am who I am.  I've tried explaining, but they are not ready to 
learn.
 
I have been called "cold" or "unsympathetic".  It seems people expect me to 
make assumptions on the intention (or nonintention) behind their actions.  Yet 
they do them and by doing them they are those actions, yet they take no 
responsibility for them.  Even more they seem to expect everyone, including 
nature itself to excuse their actions, nullify any effect or consequences those 
actions may have had.  To me it is what it is - yet this makes them miserable, 
as if I am expected to wipe away their remorse by reassuring them they were at 
the mercy of some power other than their own.
 
So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
 
-Lana

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

No, Thank You.  I already have much of the infant's mentality, the lack of
duality, the awareness, the "no-mind" - to discard all of what I have
"learned" so far would be to discard my true self.

The typical five year old has many concepts and ideas, they are possessive,
materialistic, extreme in their sense of duality, some even expect others to
serve them - that is nothing I strive towards being.

If all children naturally developed as Buddhas, there would be no need for
Buddhism to exist.

-Lana



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Maria Lopez wrote:

>
>
>
> *Lana wrote: *
> *So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?*
> * *
> *Dear Lana:*
> *Have a warm welcome to us..  My advice here to you will be that of forget
> all you have learnt so far and start all over completely a new.  As if you
> were a baby recently borne who has everything to learn, to explore, to
> experience.  Visualise the baby you were and observe the personality and way
> of doing of that baby.  Or when you were five years old with no concepts or
> ideas but with that huge awe and curiosity for everything?.  Can you
> remember how very attentive then,  you were able to listen to anyone talking
> to you about something?.  Can you remember how attentive you were to
> everything that was going on?Remember the little child and be simply
> yourself in that simplicity,  Natural with your laugh and your tears.  Free
> yourself of the weight of the thought and ideas accumulated through the
> years.Don't be afraid of being yourself.  Give up about enlightenment
> and just be happy.  *
> * *
> *I interact well with people but then I'm very lazy in cultivating  them
> and most of them give up on me!. But that is not their fault but mine all
> alone.*
> * *
> *Hope you have lots and lots of feedback for your question.*
> *Mayka*
>
>
> 
>

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

It seems to me that traditional buddhists were able to step away from the
world and dedicate themselves to their studies, some did not even have to
do chores!  Only the teachers really needed to interact with outsiders and
even then, they only really interacted with those who were interested in
learning (or thought they were interested in learning).

In the reality of today's world, unless one was born into a rich family, one
has to work for their living.  One has to be a part of a society made up of
the self-indulgent and dualistic, somehow maintaining no-mind despite
constant contact with those who truly are suffering: all while knowing
self-realization is something they have to attain on their own.

-Lana


On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Rose P  wrote:


>
>   Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this
> forum about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world.
> Rose
>
>


>  So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
>
>

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Rose P]

Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this forum 
about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world.

Rose

--- On Wed, 11/24/10, Lana M. Gibbons  wrote:

From: Lana M. Gibbons 
Subject: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 2010, 8:56 PM







 



  



  
  
  Greetings,
 
I apparently have been practicing a number of principles of Zen for quite some 
time, albeit completely unintentionally.  A lot of what I am reading now are 
things I have realized through experience without external guidance: It is very 
refreshing to see there are teachings for this that I have stumbled on.

 
One thing I am having a lot of trouble with recently is interaction with others 
who simply don't understand - people so stuck in their dualities that they 
can't begin to comprehend I just don't have them, people who are so immersed in 
the material world that they can't conceive that I am happy without many 
possessions, people so focused on having external influences complete them that 
they seem to be cut off from simply being.  This issue has been so pervasive 
recently that I have went from existing with a peaceful thought-free mind 
(no-mind?) to one that has been sad on occasion.  I have never needed 
meditation to achieve that state, but I am starting it to see if it helps.

 
It seems the issues most frequently presented are that people who feel I 
am important to them seem to keep insisting on doing things for me, then being 
frustrated that I am not ecstatic for their gestures (nor am I upset, those 
gestures simply are what they are - transient, typically materialistic things 
that are nice, but not necessary to my wellbeing).  They expect to be thanked 
as if I had needed their action like food or water.  They seem to expect me to 
sustain them in a similar fashion.  And thus they make their own misery over it 
when I simply am who I am.  I've tried explaining, but they are not ready to 
learn.

 
I have been called "cold" or "unsympathetic".  It seems people expect me to 
make assumptions on the intention (or nonintention) behind their actions.  Yet 
they do them and by doing them they are those actions, yet they take no 
responsibility for them.  Even more they seem to expect everyone, including 
nature itself to excuse their actions, nullify any effect or consequences those 
actions may have had.  To me it is what it is - yet this makes them miserable, 
as if I am expected to wipe away their remorse by reassuring them they were at 
the mercy of some power other than their own.

 
So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
 
-Lana



 





 



  






  

Re: [Zen] New Member

[Maria Lopez]

Lana wrote: 
So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
 
Dear Lana:
Have a warm welcome to us..  My advice here to you will be that of forget all 
you have learnt so far and start all over completely a new.  As if you were a 
baby recently borne who has everything to learn, to explore, to experience.  
Visualise the baby you were and observe the personality and way of doing of 
that baby.  Or when you were five years old with no concepts or ideas but 
with that huge awe and curiosity for everything?.  Can you remember how very 
attentive then,  you were able to listen to anyone talking to you about 
something?.  Can you remember how attentive you were to everything that was 
going on?Remember the little child and be simply yourself in that 
simplicity,  Natural with your laugh and your tears.  Free yourself of the 
weight of the thought and ideas accumulated through the years.    Don't be 
afraid of being yourself.  Give up about enlightenment and just be happy.  
 
I interact well with people but then I'm very lazy in cultivating  them and 
most of them give up on me!. But that is not their fault but mine all alone.
 
Hope you have lots and lots of feedback for your question.
Mayka
 
--- On Wed, 24/11/10, Lana M. Gibbons  wrote:


From: Lana M. Gibbons 
Subject: [Zen] New Member
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 20:56


  




Greetings,
 
I apparently have been practicing a number of principles of Zen for quite some 
time, albeit completely unintentionally.  A lot of what I am reading now are 
things I have realized through experience without external guidance: It is very 
refreshing to see there are teachings for this that I have stumbled on.
 
One thing I am having a lot of trouble with recently is interaction with others 
who simply don't understand - people so stuck in their dualities that they 
can't begin to comprehend I just don't have them, people who are so immersed in 
the material world that they can't conceive that I am happy without many 
possessions, people so focused on having external influences complete them that 
they seem to be cut off from simply being.  This issue has been so pervasive 
recently that I have went from existing with a peaceful thought-free mind 
(no-mind?) to one that has been sad on occasion.  I have never needed 
meditation to achieve that state, but I am starting it to see if it helps.
 
It seems the issues most frequently presented are that people who feel I 
am important to them seem to keep insisting on doing things for me, then being 
frustrated that I am not ecstatic for their gestures (nor am I upset, those 
gestures simply are what they are - transient, typically materialistic things 
that are nice, but not necessary to my wellbeing).  They expect to be thanked 
as if I had needed their action like food or water.  They seem to expect me to 
sustain them in a similar fashion.  And thus they make their own misery over it 
when I simply am who I am.  I've tried explaining, but they are not ready to 
learn.
 
I have been called "cold" or "unsympathetic".  It seems people expect me to 
make assumptions on the intention (or nonintention) behind their actions.  Yet 
they do them and by doing them they are those actions, yet they take no 
responsibility for them.  Even more they seem to expect everyone, including 
nature itself to excuse their actions, nullify any effect or consequences those 
actions may have had.  To me it is what it is - yet this makes them miserable, 
as if I am expected to wipe away their remorse by reassuring them they were at 
the mercy of some power other than their own.
 
So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?
 
-Lana

[Zen] New Member

[Lana M. Gibbons]

Greetings,

I apparently have been practicing a number of principles of Zen for quite
some time, albeit completely unintentionally.  A lot of what I am reading
now are things I have realized through experience without external
guidance: It is very refreshing to see there are teachings for this that I
have stumbled on.

One thing I am having a lot of trouble with recently is interaction with
others who simply don't understand - people so stuck in their dualities that
they can't begin to comprehend I just don't have them, people who are so
immersed in the material world that they can't conceive that I am happy
without many possessions, people so focused on having external influences
complete them that they seem to be cut off from simply being.  This issue
has been so pervasive recently that I have went from existing with a
peaceful thought-free mind (no-mind?) to one that has been sad on occasion.
I have never needed meditation to achieve that state, but I am starting it
to see if it helps.

It seems the issues most frequently presented are that people who feel I
am important to them seem to keep insisting on doing things for me, then
being frustrated that I am not ecstatic for their gestures (nor am I upset,
those gestures simply are what they are - transient, typically materialistic
things that are nice, but not necessary to my wellbeing).  They expect to be
thanked as if I had needed their action like food or water.  They seem
to expect me to sustain them in a similar fashion.  And thus they make their
own misery over it when I simply am who I am.  I've tried explaining, but
they are not ready to learn.

I have been called "cold" or "unsympathetic".  It seems people expect me to
make assumptions on the intention (or nonintention) behind their actions.
Yet they do them and by doing them they are those actions, yet they take no
responsibility for them.  Even more they seem to expect everyone, including
nature itself to excuse their actions, nullify any effect or consequences
those actions may have had.  To me it is what it is - yet this makes
them miserable, as if I am expected to wipe away their remorse by reassuring
them they were at the mercy of some power other than their own.

So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world?

-Lana

Re: [Zen] New member.

[ED]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:


> ED,

> Your posts always involve or provoke insight.

Anthony,

It makes me a little happy that at least one person sees and appreciates
at least one trait that I may possess. ;-)



> I won't comment on the relationships between pain and bliss, as I know
nothing.

I too know very little from my own experience about extreme pain and
extreme happiness.



> However, the 'naturalness of Buddha Nature' has a profound meaning.

That Buddha Nature, in principle, may be realized by all humans, is a
magnificent conception..



> It is also controversial. Zen masters say everybody has Buddha nature,
though it is normally veiled one way or the other. So it is 'natural'
that you realize it. But I assume that remark was invented by 'later day
saints' of mahayana.

Yes, but this does not detract from the wisdom of these sages nor from
the great gifts to humanity of the Buddha.



> I have yet to run into Theravada literature that says something
similar. The original Buddhist sutras say Buddha was enlightened after
meditation and gained universal knowledge, able to read mind and
remember past lives. I don't see him proclaiming everybody's Buddha
nature.

And, to me, it doesn't matter. I am open to learning from any Teacher I
resonate with.



> I may be wrong. If you have read otherwise, let me know.

To my knowledge, you are not wrong.



> Nevertheless, the mahayanist invention is one of the greatest. I like
it.

A fabulous worldview!



> On the other hand, there are some mahayanist remarks I don't like and
think them harmful. They are as follows:

> - You don't have to work hard in the forest meditating, but you can
get enlightened in the day to day life (I sometimes joke that you will
be enlightened in an orgyhouse while enjoying sex).


> - It is selfish to go a long way on the Noble Eightfold Path to reach
arahantship, because it only saves yourself, not caring about others.
You should strive to be a Bodhisatva, saving others first before you
realize anything yourself. This is a controversy that you should first
put your own house in order before helping others, or the other way
around. I have seen some mahayanist monks speaking tall, but they never
walk the talk.

> Don't say that is nothing to do with zen. Buddha left behind an
'estate' that was developed into zen. You can say thank you and goodbye
to your father for leaving such a nice estate, but never say he was a
jerk.

> Anthony

>From my Internet experience, I have learned that other humans, not me,
:-), have weird and wonderful viewpoints.

I accept this as a normal and natural consequence of the almost infinite
number of combinations of  DNA and childhood environments that different
humans have been subject to.

(This is an instance of how I use the (infamous in zen) discursive mind
toward developing understanding, tolerance and equanimity.)

--ED

Re: [Zen] New member.

[ED]

Mike,

Thank you so much for your informative comments which I will mull over
(together with Bill's.) I appreciate the brevity, precision and clarity
of the understandings and insights that you (and Bill) have afforded us.
Thanks again.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>


ED,



(1) In meditation practice, is pain a necessary ingredient for the
breakthrough to bliss and ecstasy?



I don't think it's 100% necessary as I've experienced intense
bliss/ecstasy without experiencing pain beforehand (a spontaneous
mystical experience). However, as far as vipassana goes, the pain does
seem to precede the pleasure and is a necessary part of the
technique/teaching. And it *works*!



(2) Is this phenomenon similar to or identical with the bliss and
ecstasy reported by some or many masochists in BDSM practices?



Maybe, but the goal (I imagine...) of such a practice is only the desire
for such (transient) pleasure and any lessons from such an experience
are not recognised or even sought after.



(3) Is this experience explainable as a natural process, or does it call
for postulating the intervention of supra-natural forces?



Personally, I believe this is a completely natural process and was
recognised by the historical Buddha as such.





(4) Are these cycles of pain and bliss a necessary concomitant of the
process of realizing one's Buddha Nature?



Yes, I think so. Pain and bliss are the extremes of human experience
that we will all experience one way or another. To not understand the
transitory nature of these states will never give us a deep and valid
understanding of how to live with equanimity.





(5) Have Zen masters made any statements concerrning the naturalness or
supra-naturalness of 'Buddha Nature'.



My reading of the Zen masters who have gone before us points to the
complete naturalness and everydayness of 'Buddha Nature'. If anything,
it takes a supernatural effort to *not* see what is right in front of
our noses.



Mike

Re: [Zen] New member.

[ED]

Bill, thank you so much.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>


Ed,  My responses:



A few questions (which may stimulate comments/dialogue) come to mind:

(1)   In meditation practice, is pain a necessary ingredient for the
breakthrough to bliss and ecstasy?

No.



(2)   Is this phenomenon similar to or identical with the bliss and
ecstasy reported by some or many masochists in BDSM practices?

Probably the same bodily mechanisms are involved.



(3)   Is this experience explainable as a natural process, or does it
call for postulating the intervention of supra-natural forces?

There is no such thing as `super-natural', so it's not that.



(4)   Are these cycles of pain and bliss a necessary concomitant of the
process of realizing one's Buddha Nature?

No.



(5)   Have Zen masters made any statements concerrning the naturalness
or supra-naturalness of 'Buddha Nature'.

No, not in the sense of categorizing.  Buddha Nature is the
quintessential of human nature.

--ED

RE: [Zen] New member.

[BillSmart]

Ed,  My responses:

Hello Mike, Bill, Edgar, Mayka, Anthony, JM and All,

A few questions (which may stimulate comments/dialogue) come to mind:

(1)   In meditation practice, is pain a necessary ingredient for the
breakthrough to bliss and ecstasy?

No.

(2)   Is this phenomenon similar to or identical with the bliss and ecstasy
reported by some or many masochists in BDSM practices?

Probably the same bodily mechanisms are involved.

(3)   Is this experience explainable as a natural process, or does it call
for postulating the intervention of supra-natural forces?

There is no such thing as 'super-natural', so it's not that.

(4)   Are these cycles of pain and bliss a necessary concomitant of the
process of realizing one's Buddha Nature?

No.

(5)   Have Zen masters made any statements concerrning the naturalness or
supra-naturalness of 'Buddha Nature'.

No, not in the sense of categorizing.  Buddha Nature is the quintessential
of human nature.

I do look forward to your understandings and insights.

--ED

 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote:
>
> Mayka,
> 
> Well, a 10 day vipassana course is pretty much like an 8 day sesshin
except in the following ways. The vipassana course goes for 10 days and
there is absolutely no talking, reading, writing or any form of
communication whatsoever. Wake up at 4am; last meal 11.30am; lights out at
9.30pm. Mediatate all other times. 

> There is no emphasis on how you sit to meditate and you can use whatever
you like (any number of cushions etc). The first 4 days just gets you to
concentrate on the air moving in and out of you nostrils with the 4th day
concentrating only on the space below the nostrils where the breath
enters/exits. 

> On the 5th the Vipassana 'technique' proper begins which involves a kind
of 'scanning' of the body (from head to toe) or subtle sensations. This has
the effect of pushing the consciousness into very subtle levels. 

> On the 5th or 6th day you're expected to not move for one hour - not one
movement! This is really difficult and pushes you into levels of
pain you cannot begin to imagine! However, an amazing thing happens. 

> You can be in intense pain around the 40 minute mark (if you haven't
moved), but suddenly the body/mind experiences a letting go of the pain and
changes to intense bliss and euphoria - and I mean ecstasy (personally, I
don't think this is anything 'spiritual', but just the effect of
endorphins). 

> The lesson learnt is that nothing lasts (pleasure - pain) and so not to
cling to/avert anything. Equanimity is the state that walks that middle
line. Now, this may all seem pretty obvious to those of us aquainted with
Zen and Buddhism *but* reading or imaging pain/pleasure is one thing, but
the intense experience of it (try not moving *at all* for one hour) is
another.

Furthermore, the course is absolutely free of any religious
icons/paraphenalia and is also completely free of cost (incl. accom. and
food). An amazing experience. The SAS of the meditation retreats!
>  
> Mike





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Re: [Zen] New member.

[Anthony Wu]

ED,

Your posts always involve or provoke insight. I won't comment on the 
relationships between pain and bliss, as I know nothing. However, the 
'naturalness of Buddha Nature' has a profound meaning. It is also 
controversial. Zen masters say everybody has Buddha nature, though it is 
normally veiled one way or the other. So it is 'natural' that you realize it. 
But I assume that remark was invented by 'later day saints' of mahayana. I have 
yet to run into Theravada literature that says something similar. The original 
Buddhist sutras say Buddha was enlightened after meditation and gained 
universal knowledge, able to read mind and remember past lives. I don't see him 
proclaiming everybody's Buddha nature. I may be wrong. If you have read 
otherwise, let me know. Nevertheless, the mahayanist invention is one of the 
greatest. I like it. On the other hand, there are some mahayanist remarks I 
don't like and think them harmful. They are as follows:

- You don't have to work hard in the forest meditating, but you can get 
enlightened in the day to day life (I sometimes joke that you will be 
enlightened in an orgyhouse while enjoying sex).
- It is selfish to go a long way on the Noble Eightfold Path to reach 
arahantship, because it only saves yourself, not caring about others. You 
should strive to be a Bodhisatva, saving others first before you realize 
anything yourself. This is a controversy that you should first put your own 
house in order before helping others, or the other way around. I have seen some 
mahayanist monks speaking tall, but they never walk the talk. 

Don't say that is nothing to do with zen. Buddha left behind an 'estate' that 
was developed into zen. You can say thank you and goodbye to your father for 
leaving such a nice estate, but never say he was a jerk.

Anthony

--- On Fri, 15/10/10, ED  wrote:

From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 15 October, 2010, 11:00 PM







 



  



  
  
  
Mike wrote:
 "You can be in intense pain around the 40 minute mark (if you haven't moved), 
but suddenly the body/mind experiences a letting go of the pain and changes to 
intense bliss and euphoria - and I mean ecstasy (personally, I don't think this 
is anything 'spiritual', but just the effect of endorphins)."
 
Hello Mike, Bill, Edgar, Mayka, Anthony, JM and All,
Mike, thank you for this most interesting post. I love the 'SAS'.  :-)
A few questions (which may stimulate comments/dialogue) come to mind:
(1) In meditation practice, is pain a necessary ingredient for the breakthrough 
to bliss and ecstasy?
(2) Is this phenomenon similar to or identical with the bliss and ecstasy 
reported by some or many masochists in BDSM practices?
(3) Is this experience explainable as a natural process, or does it call for 
postulating the intervention of supra-natural forces?
(4) Are these cycles of pain and bliss a necessary concomitant of the process 
of realizing one's Buddha Nature?
(5) Have Zen masters made any statements concerrning the naturalness or 
supra-naturalness of 'Buddha Nature'.
I do look forward to your understandings and insights.
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote:
>
> Mayka,
> 
> Well, a 10 day vipassana course is pretty much like an 8 day sesshin except 
> in the following ways. The vipassana course goes for 10 days and there is 
> absolutely no talking, reading, writing or any form of communication 
> whatsoever. Wake up at 4am; last meal 11.30am; lights out at 9.30pm. 
> Mediatate all other times. 
> There is no emphasis on how you sit to meditate and you can use whatever you 
> like (any number of cushions etc). The first 4 days just gets you to 
> concentrate on the air moving in and out of you nostrils with the 4th day 
> concentrating only on the space below the nostrils where the breath 
> enters/exits. 
> On the 5th the Vipassana 'technique' proper begins which involves a kind of 
> 'scanning' of the body (from head to toe) or subtle sensations. This has the 
> effect of pushing the consciousness into very subtle levels. 
> On the 5th or 6th day you're expected to not move for one hour - not one 
> movement! This is really difficult and pushes you into levels of 
> pain you cannot begin to imagine! However, an amazing thing happens. 
> You can be in intense pain around the 40 minute mark (if you haven't moved), 
> but suddenly the body/mind experiences a letting go of the pain and changes 
> to intense bliss and euphoria - and I mean ecstasy (personally, I don't think 
> this is anything 'spiritual', but just the effect of endorphins). 
> The lesson learnt is that nothing lasts (pleasure - pain) and so not to 
> cling to/avert anything. Equanim

Re: [Zen] New member.

[ED]

Greetings, Kahty!

What can one say other than the same old, same old: "Variability in
genetics and environment"?

Regards, ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, kahtychen  wrote:
>
> Greetings, All.
>
> Why do some people engage in studying the mind/nature of being/the
> metaphysical and others don't? >
> Regards,
> Kahty

Re: [Zen] New member.

[maria818448]

Hi Kahty:
Just want to greet you. How very nice to have you back here!.  
Mayka




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, kahtychen  wrote:
>
> Greetings, All.
> 
> It's been some time since I've been active on this list. Now is a good time
> to jump back in. Hello familiar faces (Bill! Anthony, Chris, Mayka, JMJM
> ...).
> 
> Interesting questions, Ed.
> 
> Why do some people engage in studying the mind/nature of being/the
> metaphysical and others don't? And by what means to we undertake such
> studies?
> 
> I think that many people are happy-go-lucky, are content and satisfied (or
> simply distracted), and don't tend to connect with questions about the
> nature of being. Then there are those of us who spend lifetimes seeking
> something ... driven by some pain or bliss, or "fracture of being" (not
> "damaged", just containing a kind of chasm).
> 
> I think the more fractured the being, the more intense the experience may be
> desired to stimulate "breakthrough." Some are served by a cramped knee in
> sitting or a psychological surrender to something supernatural, others need
> the extremes of whips and bindings, the isolation of monastic life, or the
> traumas of the ICU. In this context, they are just tools, the cultural
> judgment about the nature of these tools is something else.
> 
> Yogis, zennists, monks, glossolalists, psychotherapy clients, and
> sadomasochists are equally apt to "miss the lesson". From where I sit, pain
> and joy are catalysts, and not so different.
> 
> I find more ease in my life as a result of daily sitting rather than
> retreat. I'm a drama queen, and sesshin provides me all kinds of intense
> experiences for Big Stories, which take a while to come down from. I have
> experienced the heightened sensory awareness that's been mentioned, but I
> dramatize that specialness, too. LOL! I haven't attended many retreats,
> however ... perhaps that too shall pass?
> 
> Whether breakthroughs are the result of the neurochemistry or metaphysical
> forces is not the question of zen or vipassana. Such conjecture is story.
> And stories are what we practice releasing, they are the veil through which
> we glimpse ...
> 
> Regards,
> Kahty
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 8:00 AM, ED  wrote:
> 
> >
> > A few questions (which may stimulate comments/dialogue) come to mind:
> >
> > (1) In meditation practice, is pain a necessary ingredient for the
> > breakthrough to bliss and ecstasy?
> >
> > (2) Is this phenomenon similar to or identical with the bliss and ecstasy
> > reported by some or many masochists in BDSM practices?
> >
> > (3) Is this experience explainable as a natural process, or does it call
> > for postulating the intervention of supra-natural forces?
> >
> > (4) Are these cycles of pain and bliss a necessary concomitant of the
> > process of realizing one's Buddha Nature?
> >
> > (5) Have Zen masters made any statements concerrning the naturalness or
> > supra-naturalness of 'Buddha Nature'.
> >
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] New member.

[kahtychen]

Greetings, All.

It's been some time since I've been active on this list. Now is a good time
to jump back in. Hello familiar faces (Bill! Anthony, Chris, Mayka, JMJM
...).

Interesting questions, Ed.

Why do some people engage in studying the mind/nature of being/the
metaphysical and others don't? And by what means to we undertake such
studies?

I think that many people are happy-go-lucky, are content and satisfied (or
simply distracted), and don't tend to connect with questions about the
nature of being. Then there are those of us who spend lifetimes seeking
something ... driven by some pain or bliss, or "fracture of being" (not
"damaged", just containing a kind of chasm).

I think the more fractured the being, the more intense the experience may be
desired to stimulate "breakthrough." Some are served by a cramped knee in
sitting or a psychological surrender to something supernatural, others need
the extremes of whips and bindings, the isolation of monastic life, or the
traumas of the ICU. In this context, they are just tools, the cultural
judgment about the nature of these tools is something else.

Yogis, zennists, monks, glossolalists, psychotherapy clients, and
sadomasochists are equally apt to "miss the lesson". From where I sit, pain
and joy are catalysts, and not so different.

I find more ease in my life as a result of daily sitting rather than
retreat. I'm a drama queen, and sesshin provides me all kinds of intense
experiences for Big Stories, which take a while to come down from. I have
experienced the heightened sensory awareness that's been mentioned, but I
dramatize that specialness, too. LOL! I haven't attended many retreats,
however ... perhaps that too shall pass?

Whether breakthroughs are the result of the neurochemistry or metaphysical
forces is not the question of zen or vipassana. Such conjecture is story.
And stories are what we practice releasing, they are the veil through which
we glimpse ...

Regards,
Kahty


On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 8:00 AM, ED  wrote:

>
> A few questions (which may stimulate comments/dialogue) come to mind:
>
> (1) In meditation practice, is pain a necessary ingredient for the
> breakthrough to bliss and ecstasy?
>
> (2) Is this phenomenon similar to or identical with the bliss and ecstasy
> reported by some or many masochists in BDSM practices?
>
> (3) Is this experience explainable as a natural process, or does it call
> for postulating the intervention of supra-natural forces?
>
> (4) Are these cycles of pain and bliss a necessary concomitant of the
> process of realizing one's Buddha Nature?
>
> (5) Have Zen masters made any statements concerrning the naturalness or
> supra-naturalness of 'Buddha Nature'.
>
>

Re: [Zen] New member.

[mike brown]

ED, 

I'm not sure. I find such retreats are a good way of recharging the batteries, 
but there are many ways of doing this if you're particulary mindfull. I guess 
there could even be a negative effect of repeating such retreats if the person 
is only trying to recapture the blissfull experiences without processing 
what these experinces really mean. 35 years is a long time! Do you still 
participate in long retreats/sesshins or do you feel you've learnt all they 
have 
to offer?

Mike





From: ED 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 16 October, 2010 1:27:04
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.

  

Mike,
Some 35 years ago I had been to one *similar* such ten-day retreat with Joseph 
Goldstein, Jack Kornfeld and Susan Salzberg.
What's known about the long-term beneficial effects on a practitioner from 
a large number of such retreats?
--ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
Mayka,
 
A big smile to you, too. Actually, I was the only westerner there but given 
that 
we couldn't communicate with each other I guess it didn't matter much. The 
thing 
with the sitting arrangements - it doesn't matter how you sit. After an hour of 
sitting in *any* position (without moving) the pain becomes unbearable. In the 
end you give up trying to get comfortable and just accept the fact that the 
pain 
is going to come eventually no matter what you do. 

 
Ah yes, I know exactly what you mean about listening to the sounds of the night 
on a long retreat. I remember seeing some fire-flies (the retreat in Kyoto is 
deep into a forest) and watching them dance around for what seemed like hours. 
Even a breeze on the skin feels like a drink of ice-cold beer on a hot summers 
night. The senses are tuned-in in a way that can't be experienced ordinarily. 
If 
everyone would go on a retreat, I'm sure that many of the world's problems 
would 
be sorted out overnight.
 
Mike




  

Re: [Zen] New member.

[ED]

Mike,

Some 35 years ago I had been to one *similar* such ten-day retreat with
Joseph Goldstein, Jack Kornfeld and Susan Salzberg.

What's known about the long-term beneficial effects on a practitioner
from a large number of such retreats?

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
Mayka,   A big smile to you, too. Actually, I was the only westerner
there but given that we couldn't communicate with each other I guess it
didn't matter much. The thing with the sitting arrangements - it doesn't
matter how you sit. After an hour of sitting in *any* position (without
moving) the pain becomes unbearable. In the end you give up trying to
get comfortable and just accept the fact that the pain is going to come
eventually no matter what you do.Ah yes, I know exactly what you
mean about listening to the sounds of the night on a long retreat. I
remember seeing some fire-flies (the retreat in Kyoto is deep into a
forest) and watching them dance around for what seemed like hours. Even
a breeze on the skin feels like a drink of ice-cold beer on a hot
summers night. The senses are tuned-in in a way that can't be
experienced ordinarily. If everyone would go on a retreat, I'm sure that
many of the world's problems would be sorted out overnight.   Mike

Re: [Zen] New member.

[mike brown]

ED,
 
(1) In meditation practice, is pain a necessary ingredient for the breakthrough 
to bliss and ecstasy?
 
I don't think it's 100% necessary as I've experienced intense bliss/ecstasy 
without experiencing pain beforehand (a spontaneous mystical experience). 
However, as far as vipassana goes, the pain does seem to precede the pleasure 
and is a necessary part of the technique/teaching. And it *works*!
 
(2) Is this phenomenon similar to or identical with the bliss and ecstasy 
reported by some or many masochists in BDSM practices?
 
Maybe, but the goal (I imagine...) of such a practice is only the desire for 
such (transient) pleasure and any lessons from such an experience are not 
recognised or even sought after.
 
(3) Is this experience explainable as a natural process, or does it call for 
postulating the intervention of supra-natural forces?
 
Personally, I believe this is a completely natural process and was recognised 
by 
the historical Buddha as such.
 
 
(4) Are these cycles of pain and bliss a necessary concomitant of the process 
of realizing one's Buddha Nature?
 
Yes, I think so. Pain and bliss are the extremes of human experience that we 
will all experience one way or another. To not understand the transitory nature 
of these states will never give us a deep and valid understanding of how to 
live 
with equanimity. 

 
 
(5) Have Zen masters made any statements concerrning the naturalness or 
supra-naturalness of 'Buddha Nature'.
 
My reading of the Zen masters who have gone before us points to the complete 
naturalness and everydayness of 'Buddha Nature'. If anything, it takes a 
supernatural effort to *not* see what is right in front of our noses.
 
Mike


  

Re: [Zen] New member.

[mike brown]

Mayka,

A big smile to you, too. Actually, I was the only westerner there but given 
that 
we couldn't communicate with each other I guess it didn't matter much. The 
thing 
with the sitting arrangements - it doesn't matter how you sit. After an hour of 
sitting in *any* position (without moving) the pain becomes unbearable. In the 
end you give up trying to get comfortable and just accept the fact that the 
pain 
is going to come eventually no matter what you do. 


Ah yes, I know exactly what you mean about listening to the sounds of the night 
on a long retreat. I remember seeing some fire-flies (the retreat in Kyoto is 
deep into a forest) and watching them dance around for what seemed like hours. 
Even a breeze on the skin feels like a drink of ice-cold beer on a hot summers 
night. The senses are tuned-in in a way that can't be experienced ordinarily. 
If 
everyone would go on a retreat, I'm sure that many of the world's problems 
would 
be sorted out overnight.

Mike




From: Maria Lopez 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 15 October, 2010 17:53:17
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.

  
Mike:
 
This of yours is a valuable sharing to me.  Thank you for it. I wish I could 
attend a retreat as the one you give description about. 
 
It also sounds as this retreat was a big boost to yourself practise zen.  I 
come 
across years ago the sutra of the breathing translated by TNH. I had an 
straight 
away affinity to it.  Then, some years later I had the chance of attending that 
21 retreat about the sutra of the breathing . In spite of being an overcrowded 
retreat and not particular silence,  it was a big boost into the practise.  I 
slept very little on that retreat, perhaps between two, three and some lucky 
days four hours.  The reason of this was because when all the monastery was at 
sleep,  the silence of the night was overwhelming magic and so I spent it 
listening to the sounds of the night, sensing all those fresh spring smells, 
looking at the clear sky with so many stars...It was marvellous. So the sutra 
of 
the breathing between the day and the night kicked by the passing days like a 
gentle rain. 

 
Were there many people in your retreat?.  Were you the only westerner attending 
there?.  

 
It was wise of the ones who guide the retreat not to put a particular emphasis 
in the way attendants would sit down.  As you know I suffer from a disability 
that deteriorated and can't do a sitting down on the floor.  I can sit down in 
some chairs.  Not as easy as sitting down, though some people think that in a 
chair is much easier.  But it's not. It's actually very challenging as it takes 
much longer to have the oxygen going into smoothly and circulating in harmony 
through all body.  It takes patiente and much longer time to achieve that while 
sitting on a chair  that it takes when sitting down.  To make matters worse, 
the 
chairs from the monastery were not good chairs and took me several days in a 
row before I could make my little throne and sit down for as long as I wanted 
there. And then yes, free from pain...wow, what a pleasure to feel my breath 
going out and out!.  Do you think were the endorphin es too?.
 
How did you manage not to fall into sleep after such long hours?.
 
A big smile to you
Mayka
 

 






--- On Thu, 14/10/10, mike brown  wrote:


>From: mike brown 
>Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Thursday, 14 October, 2010, 12:28
>
>
>  
>Mayka,
>
>Well, a 10 day vipassana course is pretty much like an 8 day sesshin except in 
>the following ways. The vipassana course goes for 10 days and there is 
>absolutely no talking, reading, writing or any form of communication 
>whatsoever. 
>Wake up at 4am; last meal 11.30am; lights out at 9.30pm. Mediatate all other 
>times. There is no emphasis on how you sit to meditate and you can use 
>whatever 
>you like (any number of cushions etc). The first 4 days just gets you to 
>concentrate on the air moving in and out of you nostrils with the 4th day 
>concentrating only on the space below the nostrils where the breath 
>enters/exits. On the 5th the Vipassana 'technique' proper begins which 
>involves 
>a kind of 'scanning' of the body (from head to toe) or subtle sensations. This 
>has the effect of pushing the consciousness into very subtle levels. On the 
>5th 
>or 6th day you're expected to not move for one hour - not one movement! This 
>is 
>really difficult and pushes you into levels of pain you cannot 
>begin 
>to imagine! However, an amazing thing happens. You can be in intense pain 
>around 
>the 40 minute mark (if you haven't moved), but suddenly the body/mind 
>experiences a letting go of the pain and changes to intense bliss and euphoria 
>- 
>and I mean ecstasy (persona

Re: [Zen] New member.

[ED]

Mike wrote:

  "You can be in intense pain around the 40 minute mark (if you haven't
moved), but suddenly the body/mind experiences a letting go of the pain
and changes to intense bliss and euphoria - and I mean ecstasy
(personally, I don't think this is anything 'spiritual', but just the
effect of endorphins)."



Hello Mike, Bill, Edgar, Mayka, Anthony, JM and All,

Mike, thank you for this most interesting post. I love the 'SAS'.  :-)

A few questions (which may stimulate comments/dialogue) come to mind:

(1) In meditation practice, is pain a necessary ingredient for the
breakthrough to bliss and ecstasy?

(2) Is this phenomenon similar to or identical with the bliss and
ecstasy reported by some or many masochists in BDSM practices?

(3) Is this experience explainable as a natural process, or does it call
for postulating the intervention of supra-natural forces?

(4) Are these cycles of pain and bliss a necessary concomitant of the
process of realizing one's Buddha Nature?

(5) Have Zen masters made any statements concerrning the naturalness or
supra-naturalness of 'Buddha Nature'.

I do look forward to your understandings and insights.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mike wrote:
>
> Mayka,
>
> Well, a 10 day vipassana course is pretty much like an 8 day sesshin
except in the following ways. The vipassana course goes for 10 days and
there is absolutely no talking, reading, writing or any form of
communication whatsoever. Wake up at 4am; last meal 11.30am; lights out
at 9.30pm. Mediatate all other times.

> There is no emphasis on how you sit to meditate and you can use
whatever you like (any number of cushions etc). The first 4 days just
gets you to concentrate on the air moving in and out of you nostrils
with the 4th day concentrating only on the space below the nostrils
where the breath enters/exits.

> On the 5th the Vipassana 'technique' proper begins which involves a
kind of 'scanning' of the body (from head to toe) or subtle sensations.
This has the effect of pushing the consciousness into very subtle
levels.

> On the 5th or 6th day you're expected to not move for one hour - not
one movement! This is really difficult and pushes you into
levels of pain you cannot begin to imagine! However, an amazing thing
happens.

> You can be in intense pain around the 40 minute mark (if you haven't
moved), but suddenly the body/mind experiences a letting go of the pain
and changes to intense bliss and euphoria - and I mean ecstasy
(personally, I don't think this is anything 'spiritual', but just the
effect of endorphins).

> The lesson learnt is that nothing lasts (pleasure - pain) and so not
to cling to/avert anything. Equanimity is the state that walks that
middle line. Now, this may all seem pretty obvious to those of us
aquainted with Zen and Buddhism *but* reading or imaging pain/pleasure
is one thing, but the intense experience of it (try not moving *at all*
for one hour) is another.

Furthermore, the course is absolutely free of any religious
icons/paraphenalia and is also completely free of cost (incl. accom. and
food). An amazing experience. The SAS of the meditation retreats!
>
> Mike

Re: [Zen] New member.

[Maria Lopez]

Mike:
 
This of yours is a valuable sharing to me.  Thank you for it. I wish I could 
attend a retreat as the one you give description about. 
 
It also sounds as this retreat was a big boost to yourself practise zen.  I 
come across years ago the sutra of the breathing translated by TNH. I had an 
straight away affinity to it.  Then, some years later I had the chance of 
attending that 21 retreat about the sutra of the breathing . In spite of being 
an overcrowded retreat and not particular silence,  it was a big boost into the 
practise.  I slept very little on that retreat, perhaps between two, three and 
some lucky days four hours.  The reason of this was because when all the 
monastery was at sleep,  the silence of the night was overwhelming magic and so 
I spent it listening to the sounds of the night, sensing all those fresh spring 
smells, looking at the clear sky with so many stars...It was marvellous. So the 
sutra of the breathing between the day and the night kicked by the passing days 
like a gentle rain. 
 
Were there many people in your retreat?.  Were you the only westerner attending 
there?.  
 
It was wise of the ones who guide the retreat not to put a particular emphasis 
in the way attendants would sit down.  As you know I suffer from a disability 
that deteriorated and can't do a sitting down on the floor.  I can sit down in 
some chairs.  Not as easy as sitting down, though some people think that in a 
chair is much easier.  But it's not. It's actually very challenging as it takes 
much longer to have the oxygen going into smoothly and circulating in harmony 
through all body.  It takes patiente and much longer time to achieve that while 
sitting on a chair  that it takes when sitting down.  To make matters worse, 
the chairs from the monastery were not good chairs and took me several days in 
a row before I could make my little throne and sit down for as long as I wanted 
there. And then yes, free from pain...wow, what a pleasure to feel my breath 
going out and out!.  Do you think were the endorphin es too?.
 
How did you manage not to fall into sleep after such long hours?.
 
A big smile to you
Mayka
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
--- On Thu, 14/10/10, mike brown  wrote:


From: mike brown 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 14 October, 2010, 12:28


  





Mayka,
 
Well, a 10 day vipassana course is pretty much like an 8 day sesshin except in 
the following ways. The vipassana course goes for 10 days and there is 
absolutely no talking, reading, writing or any form of communication 
whatsoever. Wake up at 4am; last meal 11.30am; lights out at 9.30pm. Mediatate 
all other times. There is no emphasis on how you sit to meditate and you can 
use whatever you like (any number of cushions etc). The first 4 days just gets 
you to concentrate on the air moving in and out of you nostrils with the 4th 
day concentrating only on the space below the nostrils where the breath 
enters/exits. On the 5th the Vipassana 'technique' proper begins which involves 
a kind of 'scanning' of the body (from head to toe) or subtle sensations. This 
has the effect of pushing the consciousness into very subtle levels. On the 5th 
or 6th day you're expected to not move for one hour - not one movement! This is 
really difficult and pushes you
 into levels of pain you cannot begin to imagine! However, an amazing thing 
happens. You can be in intense pain around the 40 minute mark (if you haven't 
moved), but suddenly the body/mind experiences a letting go of the pain and 
changes to intense bliss and euphoria - and I mean ecstasy (personally, I don't 
think this is anything 'spiritual', but just the effect of endorphins). The 
lesson learnt is that nothing lasts (pleasure - pain) and so not to 
cling to/avert anything. Equanimity is the state that walks that middle line. 
Now, this may all seem pretty obvious to those of us aquainted with Zen and 
Buddhism *but* reading or imaging pain/pleasure is one thing, but the intense 
experience of it (try not moving *at all* for one hour) is 
another. Furthermore, the course is absolutely free of any religious 
icons/paraphenalia and is also completely free of cost (incl. accom. and food). 
An amazing experience. The SAS of the meditation retreats!
 
Mike

Re: [Zen] New member.

[mike brown]

Mayka,
 
Well, a 10 day vipassana course is pretty much like an 8 day sesshin except in 
the following ways. The vipassana course goes for 10 days and there is 
absolutely no talking, reading, writing or any form of communication 
whatsoever. 
Wake up at 4am; last meal 11.30am; lights out at 9.30pm. Mediatate all other 
times. There is no emphasis on how you sit to meditate and you can use whatever 
you like (any number of cushions etc). The first 4 days just gets you to 
concentrate on the air moving in and out of you nostrils with the 4th day 
concentrating only on the space below the nostrils where the breath 
enters/exits. On the 5th the Vipassana 'technique' proper begins which involves 
a kind of 'scanning' of the body (from head to toe) or subtle sensations. This 
has the effect of pushing the consciousness into very subtle levels. On the 5th 
or 6th day you're expected to not move for one hour - not one movement! This is 
really difficult and pushes you into levels of pain you cannot 
begin 
to imagine! However, an amazing thing happens. You can be in intense pain 
around 
the 40 minute mark (if you haven't moved), but suddenly the body/mind 
experiences a letting go of the pain and changes to intense bliss and euphoria 
- 
and I mean ecstasy (personally, I don't think this is anything 'spiritual', but 
just the effect of endorphins). The lesson learnt is that nothing lasts 
(pleasure - pain) and so not to cling to/avert anything. Equanimity is 
the state 
that walks that middle line. Now, this may all seem pretty obvious to those of 
us aquainted with Zen and Buddhism *but* reading or imaging pain/pleasure is 
one 
thing, but the intense experience of it (try not moving *at all* for one hour) 
is another. Furthermore, the course is absolutely free of any religious 
icons/paraphenalia and is also completely free of cost (incl. accom. and food). 
An amazing experience. The SAS of the meditation retreats!
 
Mike


  

Re: [Zen] New member.

[Maria Lopez]

Mike:
 
Whatever experience you had with it would do it.  Thanks.
 
Mayka

--- On Wed, 13/10/10, mike brown  wrote:


From: mike brown 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 13 October, 2010, 12:15


  





Mayka,
 
Sure. Which particular aspect of vipassana would you like me to elaborate on?
 
Mike





From: Maria Lopez 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 12 October, 2010 17:46:22
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.

  






Mike:
 
I didn't see your posting as it keeps coming into the spam folder for some 
reason.   Yahoo do this by itself sometimes. 
 
I was wondering if you could share something from your experience in that 10 
days retreat you attended.  
 
Thanks for posting
Mayka 

--- On Tue, 12/10/10, mike brown  wrote:


From: mike brown 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 October, 2010, 3:03


  



Mayka,
 
When I started Zen in Australia the centre I attended was from the Robert 
Aitken lineage. There wasn't really that much emphasis put on them beyond the 
break-thru koans that Bill has already mentioned. Here in Japan I just sit 
(instruction in English is very rare) although I find I'm attending the temples 
less and less and just trying to be mindful in everyday life (I've also found 
the 10 day Vipassana retreats in Kyoto very helpful for my meditation and would 
recommend it to anyone). No matter how complex looking, the 'secret' with koans 
is to remember that they always lead us to, or back to, this moment now as the 
only reality. How you express this understanding has to be concrete and 
immediate and there are as many 'correct' answers as there are people. 
 
Mike 





From: Maria Lopez 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 10 October, 2010 19:12:15
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.

  






Good morning Bill:
 
I don't have the Microsoft package with word application software but 
the substitute free download called: Open Office Org. Writer.  I write and post 
directly.  My BT Yahoo settings has a spell checker which is not as good as the 
word. I started to make use of it for first time  yesterday posting to you!.  
Better than nothing.  I was wondering if Is there any home software with  word 
application that could be download for free?.  The Open Office is not a great 
deal and it often conflicts and crashes  with the Microsoft windows system. 
 
Thank you for your clear explanations about the koan system.  Although, it's 
also my impression that straight away sitting down with the awareness of the in 
and out breathing is the much easier and simple of all methods.  This one of 
the koans also seems to have its own value.  Agree with you that because it's a 
tricky method one would need a very experienced Teacher from the tradition 
preferably.   Mike lives in Japan so perhaps he may have a Teacher of koans 
over there.  And if we would live near by I could ask you to show me this way.  
It's an interesting method for as long as the one who guides is very 
experienced on the field.  Meantime, Better keep persevering in the awareness 
of the in and out breathing applied as part time daily life practitioner.
 
Thank you!
Mayka
 
Note to all Members:
Any misspellings mistakes in the future complain to yahoo and not to Mayka.
 

--- On Sun, 10/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 9:24


  



Maria Carmen (a.k.a. Mayka),
My responses are embedded below:
 











May I ask you what spell checker do you use?.



[Bill!] I use Microsoft Word to compose my responses, so use the Microsoft 
spellchecker.  I don’t usually read or respond to posts on this forum directly 
in Yahoo!.  I don’t know anything about the Yahoo! spellchecker. 



Questions



  If a person knows in advance that the mind will be entangled with whatever 
given koan, why to get over to all that trouble over and over again with 
different koans?.   Why to keep given more koans if the result will always 
be the same?.

[Bill!] There are a set of koans called ‘breakthrough’ koans.  These are used 
in the beginning to assist the student in stopping their discriminating mind 
and get at least a glimpse of Buddha Nature.  Koans such as this are ‘Mu’, 
‘Show me your face before your mother was born”, ‘What is the sound of one hand 
clapping?’, etc…  Also, some zen masters create a breakthrough koan especially 
for the particular student.  The subsequent koans (koan study) are used to 
deepen and broaden the student’s awareness of Buddha Nature.  The zen master 
picks the appropriate koans to zero-in on some aspect with which he feels the 
student is having trouble, or some illusions to which the student is still 
clinging.  The koan study can consist of as many or as few koans as the zen 
master feels in necessary to bring the student into full aw

Re: [Zen] New member.

[mike brown]

Mayka,

Sure. Which particular aspect of vipassana would you like me to elaborate on?

Mike





From: Maria Lopez 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 12 October, 2010 17:46:22
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.

  
Mike:
 
I didn't see your posting as it keeps coming into the spam folder for some 
reason.   Yahoo do this by itself sometimes. 

 
I was wondering if you could share something from your experience in that 10 
days retreat you attended.  
 
Thanks for posting
Mayka 

--- On Tue, 12/10/10, mike brown  wrote:


>From: mike brown 
>Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Tuesday, 12 October, 2010, 3:03
>
>
>  
>Mayka,
>
>When I started Zen in Australia the centre I attended was from the Robert 
>Aitken 
>lineage. There wasn't really that much emphasis put on them beyond the 
>break-thru koans that Bill has already mentioned. Here in Japan I just sit 
>(instruction in English is very rare) although I find I'm attending the 
>temples 
>less and less and just trying to be mindful in everyday life (I've also found 
>the 10 day Vipassana retreats in Kyoto very helpful for my meditation and 
>would 
>recommend it to anyone). No matter how complex looking, the 'secret' with 
>koans 
>is to remember that they always lead us to, or back to, this moment now as the 
>only reality. How you express this understanding has to be concrete and 
>immediate and there are as many 'correct' answers as there are people. 
>
>
>Mike 
>
>
>
>
________________
From: Maria Lopez 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sun, 10 October, 2010 19:12:15
>Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
>
>  
>Good morning Bill:
> 
>I don't have the Microsoft package with word application software but 
>the substitute free download called: Open Office Org. Writer.  I write and 
>post 
>directly.  My BT Yahoo settings has a spell checker which is not as good as 
>the 
>word. I started to make use of it for first time  yesterday posting to you!. 
> Better than nothing.  I was wondering if Is there any home software with  
>word 
>application that could be download for free?.  The Open Office is not a great 
>deal and it often conflicts and crashes  with the Microsoft windows system. 
> 
>Thank you for your clear explanations about the koan system.  Although, it's 
>also my impression that straight away sitting down with the awareness of the 
>in 
>and out breathing is the much easier and simple of all methods.  This one of 
>the 
>koans also seems to have its own value.  Agree with you that because it's a 
>tricky method one would need a very experienced Teacher from the tradition 
>preferably.   Mike lives in Japan so perhaps he may have a Teacher of koans 
>over 
>there.  And if we would live near by I could ask you to show me this way.  
>It's 
>an interesting method for as long as the one who guides is very experienced on 
>the field.  Meantime, Better keep persevering in the awareness of the in and 
>out 
>breathing applied as part time daily life practitioner.
> 
>Thank you!
>Mayka
> 
>Note to all Members:
>Any misspellings mistakes in the future complain to yahoo and not to Mayka.
>
>
>--- On Sun, 10/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:
>
>
>>From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
>>Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 9:24
>>
>>
>>  
>>Maria Carmen (a.k.a. Mayka),
>>My responses are embedded below:
>> 
May I ask you what spell checker do you use?.
[Bill!] I use Microsoft Word to compose my responses, so use the Microsoft 
spellchecker.  I don’t usually read or respond to posts on this forum directly 
in Yahoo!.  I don’t know anything about the Yahoo! spellchecker. 
Questions
  If a person knows in advance that the mind will be entangled with whatever 
given koan, why to get over to all that trouble over and over again with 
different koans?.   Why to keep given more koans if the result will always 
be the same?.
[Bill!] There are a set of koans called ‘breakthrough’ koans.  These are used 
in 
the beginning to assist the student in stopping their discriminating mind and 
get at least a glimpse of Buddha Nature.  Koans such as this are ‘Mu’, ‘Show me 
your face before your mother was born”, ‘What is the sound of one hand 
clapping?’, etc…  Also, some zen masters create a breakthrough koan especially 
for the particular student.  The subsequent koans (koan study) are used to 
deepen and broaden the student’s awareness of Buddha Nature.  The zen master 
picks the appropriate koans to zero-in on some aspect with which he feels the 
student is having trouble, or some illusions to whi

Re: [Zen] New member.

[Maria Lopez]

Mike:
 
I didn't see your posting as it keeps coming into the spam folder for some 
reason.   Yahoo do this by itself sometimes. 
 
I was wondering if you could share something from your experience in that 10 
days retreat you attended.  
 
Thanks for posting
Mayka 

--- On Tue, 12/10/10, mike brown  wrote:


From: mike brown 
Subject: Re: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 October, 2010, 3:03


  





Mayka,
 
When I started Zen in Australia the centre I attended was from the Robert 
Aitken lineage. There wasn't really that much emphasis put on them beyond the 
break-thru koans that Bill has already mentioned. Here in Japan I just sit 
(instruction in English is very rare) although I find I'm attending the temples 
less and less and just trying to be mindful in everyday life (I've also found 
the 10 day Vipassana retreats in Kyoto very helpful for my meditation and would 
recommend it to anyone). No matter how complex looking, the 'secret' with koans 
is to remember that they always lead us to, or back to, this moment now as the 
only reality. How you express this understanding has to be concrete and 
immediate and there are as many 'correct' answers as there are people. 
 
Mike 





From: Maria Lopez 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 10 October, 2010 19:12:15
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.

  






Good morning Bill:
 
I don't have the Microsoft package with word application software but 
the substitute free download called: Open Office Org. Writer.  I write and post 
directly.  My BT Yahoo settings has a spell checker which is not as good as the 
word. I started to make use of it for first time  yesterday posting to you!.  
Better than nothing.  I was wondering if Is there any home software with  word 
application that could be download for free?.  The Open Office is not a great 
deal and it often conflicts and crashes  with the Microsoft windows system. 
 
Thank you for your clear explanations about the koan system.  Although, it's 
also my impression that straight away sitting down with the awareness of the in 
and out breathing is the much easier and simple of all methods.  This one of 
the koans also seems to have its own value.  Agree with you that because it's a 
tricky method one would need a very experienced Teacher from the tradition 
preferably.   Mike lives in Japan so perhaps he may have a Teacher of koans 
over there.  And if we would live near by I could ask you to show me this way.  
It's an interesting method for as long as the one who guides is very 
experienced on the field.  Meantime, Better keep persevering in the awareness 
of the in and out breathing applied as part time daily life practitioner.
 
Thank you!
Mayka
 
Note to all Members:
Any misspellings mistakes in the future complain to yahoo and not to Mayka.
 

--- On Sun, 10/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 9:24


  



Maria Carmen (a.k.a. Mayka),
My responses are embedded below:
 









May I ask you what spell checker do you use?.


[Bill!] I use Microsoft Word to compose my responses, so use the Microsoft 
spellchecker.  I don’t usually read or respond to posts on this forum directly 
in Yahoo!.  I don’t know anything about the Yahoo! spellchecker. 


Questions


  If a person knows in advance that the mind will be entangled with whatever 
given koan, why to get over to all that trouble over and over again with 
different koans?.   Why to keep given more koans if the result will always 
be the same?.
[Bill!] There are a set of koans called ‘breakthrough’ koans.  These are used 
in the beginning to assist the student in stopping their discriminating mind 
and get at least a glimpse of Buddha Nature.  Koans such as this are ‘Mu’, 
‘Show me your face before your mother was born”, ‘What is the sound of one hand 
clapping?’, etc…  Also, some zen masters create a breakthrough koan especially 
for the particular student.  The subsequent koans (koan study) are used to 
deepen and broaden the student’s awareness of Buddha Nature.  The zen master 
picks the appropriate koans to zero-in on some aspect with which he feels the 
student is having trouble, or some illusions to which the student is still 
clinging.  The koan study can consist of as many or as few koans as the zen 
master feels in necessary to bring the student into full awareness. 

Though, I can understand that in all that process the practitioner is having 
the mind concentrated into something that is giving a headache and finally 
finds a release in letting the koan go.   At the same time  if the student let 
the koan go, what is the response that should give to the Teacher asking to 
resolve the koan?.  And how it comes that the Teacher gives a next koan?.  How 
does the Teacher knows that? 


[Bill!] The response that the teacher will ac

Re: [Zen] New member.

[mike brown]

Mayka,

When I started Zen in Australia the centre I attended was from the Robert 
Aitken 
lineage. There wasn't really that much emphasis put on them beyond the 
break-thru koans that Bill has already mentioned. Here in Japan I just sit 
(instruction in English is very rare) although I find I'm attending the temples 
less and less and just trying to be mindful in everyday life (I've also found 
the 10 day Vipassana retreats in Kyoto very helpful for my meditation and would 
recommend it to anyone). No matter how complex looking, the 'secret' with koans 
is to remember that they always lead us to, or back to, this moment now as the 
only reality. How you express this understanding has to be concrete and 
immediate and there are as many 'correct' answers as there are people. 


Mike 





From: Maria Lopez 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 10 October, 2010 19:12:15
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.

  
Good morning Bill:
 
I don't have the Microsoft package with word application software but 
the substitute free download called: Open Office Org. Writer.  I write and post 
directly.  My BT Yahoo settings has a spell checker which is not as good as the 
word. I started to make use of it for first time  yesterday posting to you!. 
 Better than nothing.  I was wondering if Is there any home software with  word 
application that could be download for free?.  The Open Office is not a great 
deal and it often conflicts and crashes  with the Microsoft windows system. 
 
Thank you for your clear explanations about the koan system.  Although, it's 
also my impression that straight away sitting down with the awareness of the in 
and out breathing is the much easier and simple of all methods.  This one of 
the 
koans also seems to have its own value.  Agree with you that because it's a 
tricky method one would need a very experienced Teacher from the tradition 
preferably.   Mike lives in Japan so perhaps he may have a Teacher of koans 
over 
there.  And if we would live near by I could ask you to show me this way.  It's 
an interesting method for as long as the one who guides is very experienced on 
the field.  Meantime, Better keep persevering in the awareness of the in and 
out 
breathing applied as part time daily life practitioner.
 
Thank you!
Mayka
 
Note to all Members:
Any misspellings mistakes in the future complain to yahoo and not to Mayka.


--- On Sun, 10/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


>From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
>Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 9:24
>
>
>  
>Maria Carmen (a.k.a. Mayka),
>My responses are embedded below:
> 
>May I ask you what spell checker do you use?.
>[Bill!] I use Microsoft Word to compose my responses, so use the Microsoft 
>spellchecker.  I don’t usually read or respond to posts on this forum directly 
>in Yahoo!.  I don’t know anything about the Yahoo! spellchecker. 
>Questions
>  If a person knows in advance that the mind will be entangled with whatever 
>given koan, why to get over to all that trouble over and over again with 
>different koans?.   Why to keep given more koans if the result will always 
>be the same?.
>[Bill!] There are a set of koans called ‘breakthrough’ koans.  These are used 
>in 
>the beginning to assist the student in stopping their discriminating mind and 
>get at least a glimpse of Buddha Nature.  Koans such as this are ‘Mu’, ‘Show 
>me 
>your face before your mother was born”, ‘What is the sound of one hand 
>clapping?’, etc…  Also, some zen masters create a breakthrough koan especially 
>for the particular student.  The subsequent koans (koan study) are used to 
>deepen and broaden the student’s awareness of Buddha Nature.  The zen master 
>picks the appropriate koans to zero-in on some aspect with which he feels the 
>student is having trouble, or some illusions to which the student is still 
>clinging.  The koan study can consist of as many or as few koans as the zen 
>master feels in necessary to bring the student into full awareness. 
>
>Though, I can understand that in all that process the practitioner is having 
>the 
>mind concentrated into something that is giving a headache and finally finds a 
>release in letting the koan go.   At the same time  if the student let the 
>koan 
>go, what is the response that should give to the Teacher asking to resolve the 
>koan?.  And how it comes that the Teacher gives a next koan?.  How does the 
>Teacher knows that? 
>
>[Bill!] The response that the teacher will accept is completely up to the 
>teacher, and I can tell you it is not the same for every student.  I or 
>someone 
>else could tell you what they did or said to our zen master to finally pass 
>Mu, 
>and you could go into your zen maste

RE: [Zen] New member.

[Anthony Wu]

Mayka,

Native speakers, such as Bill, Edgar and Mike will see my errors easily. What I 
try to do is to avoid misunderstanding, so I pay particular attention to 
grammar. I never used a translator. Instead, I was not afraid to be laughed at. 
I used the occasions to improve my English. I am still continuing to learn. 
English is so important. There are no other languages that give you an ocean of 
knowledge. On the other hand, there is also harmful information you should be 
careful about.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 12/10/10, Maria Lopez  wrote:

From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 October, 2010, 2:56 AM







 



  



  
  
  Anthony:
 
I know you're not an English native speaker. And yet your English is great.  Do 
you use any translator, helper of any kind or you can speak and write 
English?.  I'm asking this because there was somebody from Germany who couldn't 
speak much English but he bought to himself a very good software translator and 
he could explain and say whatever he wanted.  I asked him for the package he 
was using,  which I can't remember right now what it was, but it wasn't 
available in Spanish.  He bought it and the maker was German.  
 
Mayka

--- On Mon, 11/10/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 11 October, 2010, 12:40


  






Mayka,
 
Remember I am not a native English speaker. I don't even speak English. But I 
am fluent in Singlish, Honglish, Chinglish and Indoglish.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 10/10/10, Maria Lopez  wrote:


From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 6:22 PM


  






Anthony:
 
I have a spell checker in the BT Yahoo, though is not as good as the word spell 
checker.  It's rather limited but better than nothing.  BT is my broadband 
Internet server. However, Your written English is excellent.  Why do you need a 
spell checker?
 
Mayka


--- On Sun, 10/10/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 0:06


  






Bill,
 
Put 'Rinzai' into your spelling checker. Otherwise, I will start calling you 
Bildoz
 
I have the same question as Mayka. I don't have a checker on Yahoo Mail. How do 
I get and use it?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 5:43 PM


  



Mayka,  (by the way, speaking of misspellings, I have a hard time not spelling 
your name as ‘Makya’ – I don’t know why that is.  I actually had to add the 
proper spelling of your name to my Spellchecker to make sure I get it right…)
 


You ask very good questions and I’ll try to answer:




  

  
  













I have a question:




 




If the goal of the koans is to lead the student to the non discriminative mind 
and to drop the thinking, what is the point of giving such a nonsense koans 
that leads to more entanglement in the mind?.


[Bill!] The short answer to your question is the discriminating mind needs to 
be entangled so that it can no longer function. 

The purpose of a koan is indeed to assist in stopping the activities of the 
discriminating mind.  This is the mind that creates all illusions, but most 
fundamentally the illusion of duality – self/not-self (or other). 

The way a koan does this is to give your discriminating, rational mind 
something to work on that is non-logical.  Something that cannot be reasoned 
out.  You (your discriminating mind) tries and tries, and finally gives up and 
shuts down.  This could be because it gets frustrated or tired or maybe just 
bored – I don’t know why really, but I know from experience this can finally 
happen.  When it does happen and all thinking stops, Buddha Mind appears - or 
perhaps ‘is revealed’ is better since Buddha Mind was there all the time but in 
the background, being obscured by the much more active, attention-grabbing 
discriminating mind. 
  Is it no much more simple and easier to just sit down and breath in awareness 
of the in and out breathing?.  In a way that everytime a thought, sensation, 
mental formation, any kind of distraction...arises one goes back to the 
awareness of the breathing. 
[Bill!] Yes, this is much more simpler and direct.  This is the usual teaching 
advice of Soto Zen.  What you are describing is exactly how a zen master would 
instruct you to sit shikantaza (clear mind).  The more you practice what you’ve 
described, the less often thoughts arise and the more clear mind (Buddha Mind) 
persists. 
If you use ‘getting wet’ as a simile for ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awareness of 
Buddha Mind’, I’ve heard the differences between the use of teaching of just 
shikantaza and the use of koans to be this: 
-  

RE: [Zen] New member.

[Maria Lopez]

Anthony:
 
I know you're not an English native speaker. And yet your English is great.  Do 
you use any translator, helper of any kind or you can speak and write 
English?.  I'm asking this because there was somebody from Germany who couldn't 
speak much English but he bought to himself a very good software translator and 
he could explain and say whatever he wanted.  I asked him for the package he 
was using,  which I can't remember right now what it was, but it wasn't 
available in Spanish.  He bought it and the maker was German.  
 
Mayka

--- On Mon, 11/10/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 11 October, 2010, 12:40


  








Mayka,
 
Remember I am not a native English speaker. I don't even speak English. But I 
am fluent in Singlish, Honglish, Chinglish and Indoglish.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 10/10/10, Maria Lopez  wrote:


From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 6:22 PM


  






Anthony:
 
I have a spell checker in the BT Yahoo, though is not as good as the word spell 
checker.  It's rather limited but better than nothing.  BT is my broadband 
Internet server. However, Your written English is excellent.  Why do you need a 
spell checker?
 
Mayka


--- On Sun, 10/10/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 0:06


  






Bill,
 
Put 'Rinzai' into your spelling checker. Otherwise, I will start calling you 
Bildoz
 
I have the same question as Mayka. I don't have a checker on Yahoo Mail. How do 
I get and use it?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 5:43 PM


  



Mayka,  (by the way, speaking of misspellings, I have a hard time not spelling 
your name as ‘Makya’ – I don’t know why that is.  I actually had to add the 
proper spelling of your name to my Spellchecker to make sure I get it right…)
 


You ask very good questions and I’ll try to answer:




  

  
  













I have a question:




 




If the goal of the koans is to lead the student to the non discriminative mind 
and to drop the thinking, what is the point of giving such a nonsense koans 
that leads to more entanglement in the mind?.


[Bill!] The short answer to your question is the discriminating mind needs to 
be entangled so that it can no longer function. 

The purpose of a koan is indeed to assist in stopping the activities of the 
discriminating mind.  This is the mind that creates all illusions, but most 
fundamentally the illusion of duality – self/not-self (or other). 

The way a koan does this is to give your discriminating, rational mind 
something to work on that is non-logical.  Something that cannot be reasoned 
out.  You (your discriminating mind) tries and tries, and finally gives up and 
shuts down.  This could be because it gets frustrated or tired or maybe just 
bored – I don’t know why really, but I know from experience this can finally 
happen.  When it does happen and all thinking stops, Buddha Mind appears - or 
perhaps ‘is revealed’ is better since Buddha Mind was there all the time but in 
the background, being obscured by the much more active, attention-grabbing 
discriminating mind. 
  Is it no much more simple and easier to just sit down and breath in awareness 
of the in and out breathing?.  In a way that everytime a thought, sensation, 
mental formation, any kind of distraction...arises one goes back to the 
awareness of the breathing. 
[Bill!] Yes, this is much more simpler and direct.  This is the usual teaching 
advice of Soto Zen.  What you are describing is exactly how a zen master would 
instruct you to sit shikantaza (clear mind).  The more you practice what you’ve 
described, the less often thoughts arise and the more clear mind (Buddha Mind) 
persists. 
If you use ‘getting wet’ as a simile for ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awareness of 
Buddha Mind’, I’ve heard the differences between the use of teaching of just 
shikantaza and the use of koans to be this: 
-  Soto Zen and shikantaza is like being lead out into a peaceful 
garden and left to walk around in a soft mist or very gentle rain.  You get wet 
so gradually you don’t even notice it until you come inside and someone points 
it out to you. 
-  Renzai Zen and koan study is like someone giving you a little puzzle 
to solve, and then while you’re working on it they sneak up behind you and push 
you into a lake.  You’re immediately soaked and come up out of the water 
gasping for air and wondering ‘what just happened to me?’.  The experience is 
then smoothed out and more fully integrated with further koan study. 
  Hope this helps answer your questions…Bill! 

 




--- On Sat, 9/10

RE: [Zen] New member.

[Anthony Wu]

Mayka,
 
Remember I am not a native English speaker. I don't even speak English. But I 
am fluent in Singlish, Honglish, Chinglish and Indoglish.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 10/10/10, Maria Lopez  wrote:


From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 6:22 PM


  








Anthony:
 
I have a spell checker in the BT Yahoo, though is not as good as the word spell 
checker.  It's rather limited but better than nothing.  BT is my broadband 
Internet server. However, Your written English is excellent.  Why do you need a 
spell checker?
 
Mayka


--- On Sun, 10/10/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 0:06


  






Bill,
 
Put 'Rinzai' into your spelling checker. Otherwise, I will start calling you 
Bildoz
 
I have the same question as Mayka. I don't have a checker on Yahoo Mail. How do 
I get and use it?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 5:43 PM


  



Mayka,  (by the way, speaking of misspellings, I have a hard time not spelling 
your name as ‘Makya’ – I don’t know why that is.  I actually had to add the 
proper spelling of your name to my Spellchecker to make sure I get it right…)
 
You ask very good questions and I’ll try to answer:


 

  
  













I have a question:



 



If the goal of the koans is to lead the student to the non discriminative mind 
and to drop the thinking, what is the point of giving such a nonsense koans 
that leads to more entanglement in the mind?.

[Bill!] The short answer to your question is the discriminating mind needs to 
be entangled so that it can no longer function. 

The purpose of a koan is indeed to assist in stopping the activities of the 
discriminating mind.  This is the mind that creates all illusions, but most 
fundamentally the illusion of duality – self/not-self (or other). 

The way a koan does this is to give your discriminating, rational mind 
something to work on that is non-logical.  Something that cannot be reasoned 
out.  You (your discriminating mind) tries and tries, and finally gives up and 
shuts down.  This could be because it gets frustrated or tired or maybe just 
bored – I don’t know why really, but I know from experience this can finally 
happen.  When it does happen and all thinking stops, Buddha Mind appears - or 
perhaps ‘is revealed’ is better since Buddha Mind was there all the time but in 
the background, being obscured by the much more active, attention-grabbing 
discriminating mind. 
  Is it no much more simple and easier to just sit down and breath in awareness 
of the in and out breathing?.  In a way that everytime a thought, sensation, 
mental formation, any kind of distraction...arises one goes back to the 
awareness of the breathing. 
[Bill!] Yes, this is much more simpler and direct.  This is the usual teaching 
advice of Soto Zen.  What you are describing is exactly how a zen master would 
instruct you to sit shikantaza (clear mind).  The more you practice what you’ve 
described, the less often thoughts arise and the more clear mind (Buddha Mind) 
persists. 
If you use ‘getting wet’ as a simile for ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awareness of 
Buddha Mind’, I’ve heard the differences between the use of teaching of just 
shikantaza and the use of koans to be this: 
-  Soto Zen and shikantaza is like being lead out into a peaceful 
garden and left to walk around in a soft mist or very gentle rain.  You get wet 
so gradually you don’t even notice it until you come inside and someone points 
it out to you. 
-  Renzai Zen and koan study is like someone giving you a little puzzle 
to solve, and then while you’re working on it they sneak up behind you and push 
you into a lake.  You’re immediately soaked and come up out of the water 
gasping for air and wondering ‘what just happened to me?’.  The experience is 
then smoothed out and more fully integrated with further koan study. 
  Hope this helps answer your questions…Bill! 

 



--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 2:17 

  



Mayka,
  
I’ve studied under both Renzai and Soto masters.  Generally speaking, Renzai 
uses koans and Soto only shikantaza (clear-mind meditation).  The culmination 
of both teachings is shikantaza.  Koans are just teaching techniques or tools 
used to help you stop your discriminating mind so you can be clearly aware of 
Buddha Nature.
  
Some Soto schools do, however, employ koans.  The teacher I ended my formal 
training with had teaching credentials (Inca) from masters in both Soto and 
Renzai schools.   He tailored his teaching techniques according to the 
student.  Since 

RE: [Zen] New member.

[Maria Lopez]

Anthony:
 
I have a spell checker in the BT Yahoo, though is not as good as the word spell 
checker.  It's rather limited but better than nothing.  BT is my broadband 
Internet server. However, Your written English is excellent.  Why do you need a 
spell checker?
 
Mayka


--- On Sun, 10/10/10, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 0:06


  








Bill,
 
Put 'Rinzai' into your spelling checker. Otherwise, I will start calling you 
Bildoz
 
I have the same question as Mayka. I don't have a checker on Yahoo Mail. How do 
I get and use it?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 5:43 PM


  



Mayka,  (by the way, speaking of misspellings, I have a hard time not spelling 
your name as ‘Makya’ – I don’t know why that is.  I actually had to add the 
proper spelling of your name to my Spellchecker to make sure I get it right…)
 
You ask very good questions and I’ll try to answer:
 
  
  













I have a question:


 


If the goal of the koans is to lead the student to the non discriminative mind 
and to drop the thinking, what is the point of giving such a nonsense koans 
that leads to more entanglement in the mind?.
[Bill!] The short answer to your question is the discriminating mind needs to 
be entangled so that it can no longer function. 

The purpose of a koan is indeed to assist in stopping the activities of the 
discriminating mind.  This is the mind that creates all illusions, but most 
fundamentally the illusion of duality – self/not-self (or other). 

The way a koan does this is to give your discriminating, rational mind 
something to work on that is non-logical.  Something that cannot be reasoned 
out.  You (your discriminating mind) tries and tries, and finally gives up and 
shuts down.  This could be because it gets frustrated or tired or maybe just 
bored – I don’t know why really, but I know from experience this can finally 
happen.  When it does happen and all thinking stops, Buddha Mind appears - or 
perhaps ‘is revealed’ is better since Buddha Mind was there all the time but in 
the background, being obscured by the much more active, attention-grabbing 
discriminating mind. 
  Is it no much more simple and easier to just sit down and breath in awareness 
of the in and out breathing?.  In a way that everytime a thought, sensation, 
mental formation, any kind of distraction...arises one goes back to the 
awareness of the breathing. 
[Bill!] Yes, this is much more simpler and direct.  This is the usual teaching 
advice of Soto Zen.  What you are describing is exactly how a zen master would 
instruct you to sit shikantaza (clear mind).  The more you practice what you’ve 
described, the less often thoughts arise and the more clear mind (Buddha Mind) 
persists. 
If you use ‘getting wet’ as a simile for ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awareness of 
Buddha Mind’, I’ve heard the differences between the use of teaching of just 
shikantaza and the use of koans to be this: 
-  Soto Zen and shikantaza is like being lead out into a peaceful 
garden and left to walk around in a soft mist or very gentle rain.  You get wet 
so gradually you don’t even notice it until you come inside and someone points 
it out to you. 
-  Renzai Zen and koan study is like someone giving you a little puzzle 
to solve, and then while you’re working on it they sneak up behind you and push 
you into a lake.  You’re immediately soaked and come up out of the water 
gasping for air and wondering ‘what just happened to me?’.  The experience is 
then smoothed out and more fully integrated with further koan study. 
  Hope this helps answer your questions…Bill! 

 


--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 2:17 

  



Mayka,
  
I’ve studied under both Renzai and Soto masters.  Generally speaking, Renzai 
uses koans and Soto only shikantaza (clear-mind meditation).  The culmination 
of both teachings is shikantaza.  Koans are just teaching techniques or tools 
used to help you stop your discriminating mind so you can be clearly aware of 
Buddha Nature.
  
Some Soto schools do, however, employ koans.  The teacher I ended my formal 
training with had teaching credentials (Inca) from masters in both Soto and 
Renzai schools.   He tailored his teaching techniques according to the 
student.  Since I started with his Renzai master and began koan study with him, 
he continued to use koan study with me all throughout my training. 
  
To what ‘slaps’ are you referring?   I didn’t read about any ‘slaps’ to a lady 
in the koan that was posted a couple days ago. 
  
…Bill! 
  



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com]

RE: [Zen] New member.

[Maria Lopez]

Good morning Bill:
 
I don't have the Microsoft package with word application software but 
the substitute free download called: Open Office Org. Writer.  I write and post 
directly.  My BT Yahoo settings has a spell checker which is not as good as the 
word. I started to make use of it for first time  yesterday posting to you!.  
Better than nothing.  I was wondering if Is there any home software with  word 
application that could be download for free?.  The Open Office is not a great 
deal and it often conflicts and crashes  with the Microsoft windows system. 
 
Thank you for your clear explanations about the koan system.  Although, it's 
also my impression that straight away sitting down with the awareness of the in 
and out breathing is the much easier and simple of all methods.  This one of 
the koans also seems to have its own value.  Agree with you that because it's a 
tricky method one would need a very experienced Teacher from the tradition 
preferably.   Mike lives in Japan so perhaps he may have a Teacher of koans 
over there.  And if we would live near by I could ask you to show me this way.  
It's an interesting method for as long as the one who guides is very 
experienced on the field.  Meantime, Better keep persevering in the awareness 
of the in and out breathing applied as part time daily life practitioner.
 
Thank you!
Mayka
 
Note to all Members:
Any misspellings mistakes in the future complain to yahoo and not to Mayka.
 

--- On Sun, 10/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 October, 2010, 9:24


  





Maria Carmen (a.k.a. Mayka),
My responses are embedded below:
 









May I ask you what spell checker do you use?.

[Bill!] I use Microsoft Word to compose my responses, so use the Microsoft 
spellchecker.  I don’t usually read or respond to posts on this forum directly 
in Yahoo!.  I don’t know anything about the Yahoo! spellchecker. 

Questions

  If a person knows in advance that the mind will be entangled with whatever 
given koan, why to get over to all that trouble over and over again with 
different koans?.   Why to keep given more koans if the result will always 
be the same?.
[Bill!] There are a set of koans called ‘breakthrough’ koans.  These are used 
in the beginning to assist the student in stopping their discriminating mind 
and get at least a glimpse of Buddha Nature.  Koans such as this are ‘Mu’, 
‘Show me your face before your mother was born”, ‘What is the sound of one hand 
clapping?’, etc…  Also, some zen masters create a breakthrough koan especially 
for the particular student.  The subsequent koans (koan study) are used to 
deepen and broaden the student’s awareness of Buddha Nature.  The zen master 
picks the appropriate koans to zero-in on some aspect with which he feels the 
student is having trouble, or some illusions to which the student is still 
clinging.  The koan study can consist of as many or as few koans as the zen 
master feels in necessary to bring the student into full awareness.
Though, I can understand that in all that process the practitioner is having 
the mind concentrated into something that is giving a headache and finally 
finds a release in letting the koan go.   At the same time  if the student let 
the koan go, what is the response that should give to the Teacher asking to 
resolve the koan?.  And how it comes that the Teacher gives a next koan?.  How 
does the Teacher knows that?

[Bill!] The response that the teacher will accept is completely up to the 
teacher, and I can tell you it is not the same for every student.  I or someone 
else could tell you what they did or said to our zen master to finally pass Mu, 
and you could go into your zen master and do and say the same things and get 
‘rung out’ (abruptly dismissed by the ringing of a bell).  It is up to the 
skill and experience of the zen master to be able to discern if a response is 
genuine and acceptable, or not.  Sometimes this takes more than just a few 
visits to the zen master to satisfy him that you have indeed become aware of 
Buddha Nature.  I answered the questions on how the zen master knows which koan 
to give you next in my response above. 

I suppose as in all zen experience is difficult for me to understand the koan 
part because I've ever worked or have a Teacher who gave me those complicated 
koans.  Though there is a recent koan (if one wants to call that as such) given 
by TNH and that is: "This is a happy moment".
[Bill!] Like I said, koans and koan study are not necessary.  If employed by a 
skilled zen master they can be helpful, but ‘just sitting’ (shikantaza – ‘clear 
mind meditation’) is the end result of all zen training – and this includes 
doing zazen when not sitting on a cushion, but holding the awareness of Buddha 
Mind in everything you do every day.
…Bill!
  

 

 


--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...

RE: [Zen] New member.

[BillSmart]

Maria Carmen (a.k.a. Mayka),

My responses are embedded below:

 


May I ask you what spell checker do you use?.

[Bill!] I use Microsoft Word to compose my responses, so use the Microsoft 
spellchecker.  I don’t usually read or respond to posts on this forum directly 
in Yahoo!.  I don’t know anything about the Yahoo! spellchecker. 

Questions

  If a person knows in advance that the mind will be entangled with whatever 
given koan, why to get over to all that trouble over and over again with 
different koans?.   Why to keep given more koans if the result will always be 
the same?.

[Bill!] There are a set of koans called ‘breakthrough’ koans.  These are used 
in the beginning to assist the student in stopping their discriminating mind 
and get at least a glimpse of Buddha Nature.  Koans such as this are ‘Mu’, 
‘Show me your face before your mother was born”, ‘What is the sound of one hand 
clapping?’, etc…  Also, some zen masters create a breakthrough koan especially 
for the particular student.  The subsequent koans (koan study) are used to 
deepen and broaden the student’s awareness of Buddha Nature.  The zen master 
picks the appropriate koans to zero-in on some aspect with which he feels the 
student is having trouble, or some illusions to which the student is still 
clinging.  The koan study can consist of as many or as few koans as the zen 
master feels in necessary to bring the student into full awareness.

Though, I can understand that in all that process the practitioner is having 
the mind concentrated into something that is giving a headache and finally 
finds a release in letting the koan go.   At the same time  if the student let 
the koan go, what is the response that should give to the Teacher asking to 
resolve the koan?.  And how it comes that the Teacher gives a next koan?.  How 
does the Teacher knows that?

[Bill!] The response that the teacher will accept is completely up to the 
teacher, and I can tell you it is not the same for every student.  I or someone 
else could tell you what they did or said to our zen master to finally pass Mu, 
and you could go into your zen master and do and say the same things and get 
‘rung out’ (abruptly dismissed by the ringing of a bell).  It is up to the 
skill and experience of the zen master to be able to discern if a response is 
genuine and acceptable, or not.  Sometimes this takes more than just a few 
visits to the zen master to satisfy him that you have indeed become aware of 
Buddha Nature.  I answered the questions on how the zen master knows which koan 
to give you next in my response above. 

I suppose as in all zen experience is difficult for me to understand the koan 
part because I've ever worked or have a Teacher who gave me those complicated 
koans.  Though there is a recent koan (if one wants to call that as such) given 
by TNH and that is: "This is a happy moment".

[Bill!] Like I said, koans and koan study are not necessary.  If employed by a 
skilled zen master they can be helpful, but ‘just sitting’ (shikantaza – ‘clear 
mind meditation’) is the end result of all zen training – and this includes 
doing zazen when not sitting on a cushion, but holding the awareness of Buddha 
Mind in everything you do every day.

…Bill!

  

 

 


--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 10:43

  

Mayka,  (by the way, speaking of misspellings, I have a hard time not spelling 
your name as ‘Makya’ – I don’t know why that is.  I actually had to add the 
proper spelling of your name to my Spellchecker to make sure I get it right…)

 

You ask very good questions and I’ll try to answer:

 

  

  



I have a question:

 

If the goal of the koans is to lead the student to the non discriminative mind 
and to drop the thinking, what is the point of giving such a nonsense koans 
that leads to more entanglement in the mind?.

[Bill!] The short answer to your question is the discriminating mind needs to 
be entangled so that it can no longer function.

The purpose of a koan is indeed to assist in stopping the activities of the 
discriminating mind.  This is the mind that creates all illusions, but most 
fundamentally the illusion of duality – self/not-self (or other).

The way a koan does this is to give your discriminating, rational mind 
something to work on that is non-logical.  Something that cannot be reasoned 
out.  You (your discriminating mind) tries and tries, and finally gives up and 
shuts down.  This could be because it gets frustrated or tired or maybe just 
bored – I don’t know why really, but I know from experience this can finally 
happen.  When it does happen and all thinking stops, Buddha Mind appears - or 
perhaps ‘is revealed’ is better since Buddha Mind was there all the time but in 
the background, being obscured by the much more active, attention-grabbing 
discriminating mind. 

RE: [Zen] New member.

[BillSmart]

Anthony,

I use Microsoft Word Spellchecker.

I’ve already put ‘Renzai’ into it, but I’ll see if I can change that – just for 
you...

…Bildoz!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 6:06 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.

 

  


Bill,

 

Put 'Rinzai' into your spelling checker. Otherwise, I will start calling you 
Bildoz

 

I have the same question as Mayka. I don't have a checker on Yahoo Mail. How do 
I get and use it?

 

Anthony

--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 5:43 PM

  

Mayka,  (by the way, speaking of misspellings, I have a hard time not spelling 
your name as ‘Makya’ – I don’t know why that is.  I actually had to add the 
proper spelling of your name to my Spellchecker to make sure I get it right…)

 

You ask very good questions and I’ll try to answer:

 

  

  



I have a question:

 

If the goal of the koans is to lead the student to the non discriminative mind 
and to drop the thinking, what is the point of giving such a nonsense koans 
that leads to more entanglement in the mind?.

[Bill!] The short answer to your question is the discriminating mind needs to 
be entangled so that it can no longer function.

The purpose of a koan is indeed to assist in stopping the activities of the 
discriminating mind.  This is the mind that creates all illusions, but most 
fundamentally the illusion of duality – self/not-self (or other).

The way a koan does this is to give your discriminating, rational mind 
something to work on that is non-logical.  Something that cannot be reasoned 
out.  You (your discriminating mind) tries and tries, and finally gives up and 
shuts down.  This could be because it gets frustrated or tired or maybe just 
bored – I don’t know why really, but I know from experience this can finally 
happen.  When it does happen and all thinking stops, Buddha Mind appears - or 
perhaps ‘is revealed’ is better since Buddha Mind was there all the time but in 
the background, being obscured by the much more active, attention-grabbing 
discriminating mind. 

  Is it no much more simple and easier to just sit down and breath in awareness 
of the in and out breathing?.  In a way that everytime a thought, sensation, 
mental formation, any kind of distraction...arises one goes back to the 
awareness of the breathing. 

[Bill!] Yes, this is much more simpler and direct.  This is the usual teaching 
advice of Soto Zen.  What you are describing is exactly how a zen master would 
instruct you to sit shikantaza (clear mind).  The more you practice what you’ve 
described, the less often thoughts arise and the more clear mind (Buddha Mind) 
persists. 

If you use ‘getting wet’ as a simile for ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awareness of 
Buddha Mind’, I’ve heard the differences between the use of teaching of just 
shikantaza and the use of koans to be this: 

-  Soto Zen and shikantaza is like being lead out into a peaceful 
garden and left to walk around in a soft mist or very gentle rain.  You get wet 
so gradually you don’t even notice it until you come inside and someone points 
it out to you. 

-  Renzai Zen and koan study is like someone giving you a little puzzle 
to solve, and then while you’re working on it they sneak up behind you and push 
you into a lake.  You’re immediately soaked and come up out of the water 
gasping for air and wondering ‘what just happened to me?’.  The experience is 
then smoothed out and more fully integrated with further koan study. 

  Hope this helps answer your questions…Bill! 

 


--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 2:17 

  

Mayka,

  

I’ve studied under both Renzai and Soto masters.  Generally speaking, Renzai 
uses koans and Soto only shikantaza (clear-mind meditation).  The culmination 
of both teachings is shikantaza.  Koans are just teaching techniques or tools 
used to help you stop your discriminating mind so you can be clearly aware of 
Buddha Nature.

  

Some Soto schools do, however, employ koans.  The teacher I ended my formal 
training with had teaching credentials (Inca) from masters in both Soto and 
Renzai schools.   He tailored his teaching techniques according to the student. 
 Since I started with his Renzai master and began koan study with him, he 
continued to use koan study with me all throughout my training. 

  

To what ‘slaps’ are you referring?   I didn’t read about any ‘slaps’ to a lady 
in the koan that was posted a couple days ago. 

  

…Bill! 

  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:19 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.

RE: [Zen] New member.

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
Put 'Rinzai' into your spelling checker. Otherwise, I will start calling you 
Bildoz
 
I have the same question as Mayka. I don't have a checker on Yahoo Mail. How do 
I get and use it?
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 5:43 PM


  





Mayka,  (by the way, speaking of misspellings, I have a hard time not spelling 
your name as ‘Makya’ – I don’t know why that is.  I actually had to add the 
proper spelling of your name to my Spellchecker to make sure I get it right…)
 
You ask very good questions and I’ll try to answer:
 
 
 













I have a question:

 

If the goal of the koans is to lead the student to the non discriminative mind 
and to drop the thinking, what is the point of giving such a nonsense koans 
that leads to more entanglement in the mind?.
[Bill!] The short answer to your question is the discriminating mind needs to 
be entangled so that it can no longer function.
The purpose of a koan is indeed to assist in stopping the activities of the 
discriminating mind.  This is the mind that creates all illusions, but most 
fundamentally the illusion of duality – self/not-self (or other).
The way a koan does this is to give your discriminating, rational mind 
something to work on that is non-logical.  Something that cannot be reasoned 
out.  You (your discriminating mind) tries and tries, and finally gives up and 
shuts down.  This could be because it gets frustrated or tired or maybe just 
bored – I don’t know why really, but I know from experience this can finally 
happen.  When it does happen and all thinking stops, Buddha Mind appears - or 
perhaps ‘is revealed’ is better since Buddha Mind was there all the time but in 
the background, being obscured by the much more active, attention-grabbing 
discriminating mind.
  Is it no much more simple and easier to just sit down and breath in awareness 
of the in and out breathing?.  In a way that everytime a thought, sensation, 
mental formation, any kind of distraction...arises one goes back to the 
awareness of the breathing.
[Bill!] Yes, this is much more simpler and direct.  This is the usual teaching 
advice of Soto Zen.  What you are describing is exactly how a zen master would 
instruct you to sit shikantaza (clear mind).  The more you practice what you’ve 
described, the less often thoughts arise and the more clear mind (Buddha Mind) 
persists.
If you use ‘getting wet’ as a simile for ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awareness of 
Buddha Mind’, I’ve heard the differences between the use of teaching of just 
shikantaza and the use of koans to be this:
-  Soto Zen and shikantaza is like being lead out into a peaceful 
garden and left to walk around in a soft mist or very gentle rain.  You get wet 
so gradually you don’t even notice it until you come inside and someone points 
it out to you.
-  Renzai Zen and koan study is like someone giving you a little puzzle 
to solve, and then while you’re working on it they sneak up behind you and push 
you into a lake.  You’re immediately soaked and come up out of the water 
gasping for air and wondering ‘what just happened to me?’.  The experience is 
then smoothed out and more fully integrated with further koan study. 
  Hope this helps answer your questions…Bill!

 


--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 2:17

  



Mayka,
 
I’ve studied under both Renzai and Soto masters.  Generally speaking, Renzai 
uses koans and Soto only shikantaza (clear-mind meditation).  The culmination 
of both teachings is shikantaza.  Koans are just teaching techniques or tools 
used to help you stop your discriminating mind so you can be clearly aware of 
Buddha Nature.
  
Some Soto schools do, however, employ koans.  The teacher I ended my formal 
training with had teaching credentials (Inca) from masters in both Soto and 
Renzai schools.   He tailored his teaching techniques according to the 
student.  Since I started with his Renzai master and began koan study with him, 
he continued to use koan study with me all throughout my training. 
  
To what ‘slaps’ are you referring?   I didn’t read about any ‘slaps’ to a lady 
in the koan that was posted a couple days ago. 
  
…Bill! 
  



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:19 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
  
  





Thanks Jody.  Doesn't the Soto tradition uses koans?.

 

Should be understood them that slaps the lady received in the koan given,  were 
defectuos because nobody can awake anybody else except for oneselves?

 

Mayka

 

 

--- On Fri, 8/10/10, Jody W. Ianuzzi  wrote:


From: Jody W. Ianuzzi 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New m

RE: [Zen] New member.

[Maria Lopez]

Hi Bill;
 
Thank you for your post and also for the reminder of the spell checker which I 
hardly ever used!. Perhaps this is because the additional spell checker of the 
yahoo  mail is not very good and can't add or subtract anything on it.  May I 
ask you what spell checker do you use?.  
 
   Don't worry about spelling correctly or incorrectly my name.  In real life 
here in Scotland,  there are many people who can't even pronounce it 
correctly.  So some people call me Maya, Mika, Mayko, Maikio, Maka.It's 
understandable as Mayka is amongst the variety of short name of Maria Carmen in 
Vasque Language and also the way my family calls me.  
 
Questions
 
 If a person knows in advance that the mind will be entangled with whatever 
given koan, why to get over to all that trouble over and over again with 
different koans?.   Why to keep given more koans if the result will always 
be the same?.  Though, I can understand that in all that process the 
practitioner is having the mind concentrated into something that is giving a 
headache and finally finds a release in letting the koan go.   At the same time 
 if the student let the koan go, what is the response that should give to the 
Teacher asking to resolve the koan?.  And how it comes that the Teacher gives a 
next koan?.  How does the Teacher knows that?
 
I suppose as in all zen experience is difficult for me to understand the koan 
part because I've ever worked or have a Teacher who gave me those complicated 
koans.  Though there is a recent koan (if one wants to call that as such) given 
by TNH and that is: "This is a happy moment".  
 
 

--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 October, 2010, 10:43


  





Mayka,  (by the way, speaking of misspellings, I have a hard time not spelling 
your name as ‘Makya’ – I don’t know why that is.  I actually had to add the 
proper spelling of your name to my Spellchecker to make sure I get it right…)
 
You ask very good questions and I’ll try to answer:
 
 
 













I have a question:

 

If the goal of the koans is to lead the student to the non discriminative mind 
and to drop the thinking, what is the point of giving such a nonsense koans 
that leads to more entanglement in the mind?.
[Bill!] The short answer to your question is the discriminating mind needs to 
be entangled so that it can no longer function.
The purpose of a koan is indeed to assist in stopping the activities of the 
discriminating mind.  This is the mind that creates all illusions, but most 
fundamentally the illusion of duality – self/not-self (or other).
The way a koan does this is to give your discriminating, rational mind 
something to work on that is non-logical.  Something that cannot be reasoned 
out.  You (your discriminating mind) tries and tries, and finally gives up and 
shuts down.  This could be because it gets frustrated or tired or maybe just 
bored – I don’t know why really, but I know from experience this can finally 
happen.  When it does happen and all thinking stops, Buddha Mind appears - or 
perhaps ‘is revealed’ is better since Buddha Mind was there all the time but in 
the background, being obscured by the much more active, attention-grabbing 
discriminating mind.
  Is it no much more simple and easier to just sit down and breath in awareness 
of the in and out breathing?.  In a way that every time a thought, sensation, 
mental formation, any kind of distraction...arises one goes back to the 
awareness of the breathing.
[Bill!] Yes, this is much more simpler and direct.  This is the usual teaching 
advice of Soto Zen.  What you are describing is exactly how a zen master would 
instruct you to sit shikantaza (clear mind).  The more you practise what you’ve 
described, the less often thoughts arise and the more clear mind (Buddha Mind) 
persists.
If you use ‘getting wet’ as a simile for ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awareness of 
Buddha Mind’, I’ve heard the differences between the use of teaching of just 
shikantaza and the use of koans to be this:
-  Soto Zen and shikantaza is like being lead out into a peaceful 
garden and left to walk around in a soft mist or very gentle rain.  You get wet 
so gradually you don’t even notice it until you come inside and someone points 
it out to you.
-  Renzai Zen and koan study is like someone giving you a little puzzle 
to solve, and then while you’re working on it they sneak up behind you and push 
you into a lake.  You’re immediately soaked and come up out of the water 
gasping for air and wondering ‘what just happened to me?’.  The experience is 
then smoothed out and more fully integrated with further koan study. 
  Hope this helps answer your questions…Bill!

 


--- On Sat, 9/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] New member.
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Da