Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Jul 2012, at 19:31, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote This is a rephrasing which does not suppress in any way the fact that in Helsinki I am uncertain about the experience I will feel next. But that is ALWAYS true regardless of whether

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Jul 2012, at 21:53, meekerdb wrote: On 7/5/2012 11:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Jul 2012, at 19:13, meekerdb wrote: On 7/5/2012 12:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Jul 2012, at 18:29, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Jul 2012, at 22:14, meekerdb wrote: On 7/5/2012 11:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: OK. But this happens because my computational state in Helsinki has been duplicated, and the changes you talk about is the experience of self-localization. This is a rephrasing which does not suppress in

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Jul 2012, at 20:40, David Nyman wrote: On 5 July 2012 18:05, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: But we can already justify the relative indeterminacy of the relative first person perspective, from what is an entirely deterministic background. Hoyle wan't necessarily assuming

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-06 Thread David Nyman
On 6 July 2012 10:27, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: *In which structure is that relative-frequency defined, and to whom does it apply? How can we verify it?* * * The structure, if you like, is the total state of knowledge of the knower (as you have characterised it in a post to Brent)

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Jul 2012, at 15:07, David Nyman wrote: On 6 July 2012 10:27, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: In which structure is that relative-frequency defined, and to whom does it apply? How can we verify it? The structure, if you like, is the total state of knowledge of the knower (as

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-06 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote This is a rephrasing which does not suppress in any way the fact that in Helsinki I am uncertain about the experience I will feel next. But that is ALWAYS true regardless of whether identity splitting or duplicating chambers enter the

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-06 Thread David Nyman
On 6 July 2012 18:01, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: *I am sure your analysis might help to better apprehend consciousness, and can perhaps better handle the amnesia situation. But you have not (yet) convinced me that it has to be termed into a new form of *assumed at the outset*

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-06 Thread Stephen P. King
On 7/6/2012 5:18 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 6 July 2012 18:01, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: /I am sure your analysis might help to better apprehend consciousness, and can perhaps better handle the amnesia situation. But you have not

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-06 Thread David Nyman
On 6 July 2012 22:55, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: We have to be very careful about this assumed from the onset stuff! Yes, it is necessary to assume things even for the sake of discussion of ideas, but to assume that they are de facto primitive and/or a priori is often a fatal

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-06 Thread Stephen P. King
On 7/6/2012 7:26 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 6 July 2012 22:55, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: We have to be very careful about this assumed from the onset stuff! Yes, it is necessary to assume things even for the sake of discussion of

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Jul 2012, at 18:29, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you duplicated the entire city of Washington and sent one Bruno Marchal to Washington1 and the other Bruno Marchal to Washington2 then there would only be one Bruno Marchal having a

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-05 Thread David Nyman
On 5 July 2012 08:25, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The proof if by absurdo. Suppose there is an algorithm, or even just a God capable of predicting the specific outcome among 1) and 2). Suppose it is 1), then the guy in Moscow refutes it, and comp invites us to listen to him. If it

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-05 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is no sense to ask who is really me I'm glad to hear you say that. what is asked is the probability of the specific events seeing Washington , or seeing Moscow. That depends entirely on something outside of you, namely

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Jul 2012, at 15:47, David Nyman wrote: On 5 July 2012 08:25, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The proof if by absurdo. Suppose there is an algorithm, or even just a God capable of predicting the specific outcome among 1) and 2). Suppose it is 1), then the guy in Moscow

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-05 Thread meekerdb
On 7/5/2012 12:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Jul 2012, at 18:29, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you duplicated the entire city of Washington and sent one Bruno Marchal to Washington1 and the

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Jul 2012, at 19:13, meekerdb wrote: On 7/5/2012 12:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Jul 2012, at 18:29, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you duplicated the entire city of Washington and sent one Bruno Marchal to Washington1 and

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 05 Jul 2012, at 18:15, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There is no sense to ask who is really me I'm glad to hear you say that. what is asked is the probability of the specific events seeing Washington , or seeing Moscow. That depends

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-05 Thread David Nyman
On 5 July 2012 18:05, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: *But we can already justify the relative indeterminacy of the relative first person perspective, from what is an entirely deterministic background. * Hoyle wan't necessarily assuming comp (and nor do I when talking in this way).

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-05 Thread meekerdb
On 7/5/2012 11:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Jul 2012, at 19:13, meekerdb wrote: On 7/5/2012 12:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Jul 2012, at 18:29, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you duplicated the

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-05 Thread meekerdb
On 7/5/2012 11:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: OK. But this happens because my computational state in Helsinki has been duplicated, and the changes you talk about is the experience of self-localization. This is a rephrasing which does not suppress in any way the fact that in Helsinki I am uncertain

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-04 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: if you duplicated the entire city of Washington and sent one Bruno Marchal to Washington1 and the other Bruno Marchal to Washington2 then there would only be one Bruno Marchal having a Washington experience. No problem with

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-03 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:21 AM, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 2 July 2012 17:50, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: And one nanosecond after the copying when one receives sensory impulses that originated in Moscow and the other receives sensory impulses that originated in

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-03 Thread David Nyman
On 3 July 2012 08:09, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: I'm pretty sure John understands the argument but he prefers to give primacy to the objective/third-person viewpoint. The first-person viewpoint involves an assumption that I am a single person travelling through time in the

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Jul 2012, at 22:17, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The profound thing is that in Helsinki he does not know which one he will feel to be, so he is confronted with an indeterminacy Suppose I send the same identical Email to both you

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Jul 2012, at 12:05, David Nyman wrote: On 3 July 2012 08:09, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: I'm pretty sure John understands the argument but he prefers to give primacy to the objective/third-person viewpoint. The first-person viewpoint involves an assumption that I am a

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-03 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Suppose I send the same identical Email to both you and to Craig at the same identical time, you look at your copy and think when John hit the send button on his computer he could not have predicted that I would get this copy of

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-03 Thread John Clark
On 3 July 2012 Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: I'm pretty sure John understands the argument but he prefers to give primacy to the objective/third-person viewpoint. On the contrary, the first person subjective viewpoint is the most important thing in the universe, or at least

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Jul 2012, at 18:02, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Suppose I send the same identical Email to both you and to Craig at the same identical time, you look at your copy and think when John hit the send button on his computer he could not

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-03 Thread meekerdb
On 7/3/2012 10:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: No matter what diary entry I come up with you keep saying it would not disprove your theory because of blah blah point of view blah blah, so I want you to tell me exactly what diary entry WOULD disprove your theory? I will feel to be in W. Confirmed

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Jul 2012, at 19:26, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There are incompatible from the 1-pov ONLY if you assume there can be only one Bruno Marchal 1-pov means 1-pov from the 1-pov view. That's real nice, but the predictions written

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-02 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You are, by definition asked to predict which one. If the person asking the question demands one and only one prediction then he has made the very silly logical assumption that there can only be one Bruno Marchal. Your

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-02 Thread David Nyman
On 2 July 2012 15:06, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: Not on a third person description of bodies nor on a third person description of first person experiences, only on the first person experience. The only first person experience I know directly is my own For heaven's sake re-read

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Jul 2012, at 16:06, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You are, by definition asked to predict which one. If the person asking the question demands one and only one prediction then he has made the very silly logical assumption

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-02 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote silly assumptions like there can be only one Bruno Marchal That is not a silly assumptions. It is a consequence of computationalism. So you've proved that if computationalism is true then there can be only one Bruno Marchal, but

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-02 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: After Bruno has been copied each copy must be in precisely the first-person position you describe. And one nanosecond after the copying when one receives sensory impulses that originated in Moscow and the other receives sensory

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-02 Thread David Nyman
On 2 July 2012 17:50, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: *And one nanosecond after the copying when one receives sensory impulses that originated in Moscow and the other receives sensory impulses that originated in Washington neither would be in precisely the first-person position they were

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-02 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Jul 2012, at 18:41, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote silly assumptions like there can be only one Bruno Marchal That is not a silly assumptions. It is a consequence of computationalism. So you've proved that if computationalism is

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
Stephen, Right, this is all about wholeness. I suggest that 1. Wholeness can never be 100% independent of context. 2. Since consciousness is materially related in any definition of wholeness, I reason that... 3. There is not necessarily any possible method of extracting, teleporting,

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-02 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The profound thing is that in Helsinki he does not know which one he will feel to be, so he is confronted with an indeterminacy Suppose I send the same identical Email to both you and to Craig at the same identical time, you look

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Jun 2012, at 19:28, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: As I said before if you really had complete information then you could make 2 predictions: 1) I Bruno Marchal will write in my diary I Bruno Marchal am now in Washington and only

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Jun 2012, at 21:57, meekerdb wrote: On 6/30/2012 12:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Jun 2012, at 21:20, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You said yourself that the first person cannot be defined. How could we verify that

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Jun 2012, at 23:52, Craig Weinberg wrote: It seems to me that with functionalism a human identity cannot necessarily be different from a any sufficiently complex functional interaction. Something like a war, for instance involves lots of dynamic i/o, 'processing', etc. My question

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-01 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 3:57 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Suppose you predict I will be in Washinton. But if he was smart and knowledgeable of the situation (and the thought experiment would be useless if he was not) that would NOT be his prediction, instead he would make 2

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Jul 2012, at 18:15, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 3:57 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Suppose you predict I will be in Washinton. But if he was smart and knowledgeable of the situation (and the thought experiment would be useless if he was not) that would NOT

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-01 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There are incompatible from the 1-pov ONLY if you assume there can be only one Bruno Marchal 1-pov means 1-pov from the 1-pov view. That's real nice, but the predictions written down in advance were: 1) I Bruno Marchal will

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-01 Thread meekerdb
On 7/1/2012 9:15 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 3:57 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Suppose you predict I will be in Washinton. But if he was smart and knowledgeable of the situation (and the thought experiment would be useless if he

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-01 Thread meekerdb
On 7/1/2012 10:26 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: There are incompatible from the 1-pov ONLY if you assume there can be only one Bruno Marchal 1-pov means 1-pov from the 1-pov view. That's

Re: Autonomy?

2012-07-01 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 02/07/2012, at 2:15 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: No, after the copying Bruno Washington and Bruno Moscow will both look at their identical diary entries and both will conclude I was right. And you, the third party outside observer, will look at the behavior of both Bruno

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Jun 2012, at 21:20, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You said yourself that the first person cannot be defined. How could we verify that prediction? Except by feeling to be one of the W and M reconstituted person. And from their points

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-30 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: As I said before if you really had complete information then you could make 2 predictions: 1) I Bruno Marchal will write in my diary I Bruno Marchal am now in Washington and only Washington. 2) I Bruno Marchal will write in my

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-30 Thread meekerdb
On 6/30/2012 12:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Jun 2012, at 21:20, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You said yourself that the first person cannot be defined. How could we verify that prediction? Except by

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
It seems to me that with functionalism a human identity cannot necessarily be different from a any sufficiently complex functional interaction. Something like a war, for instance involves lots of dynamic i/o, 'processing', etc. My question then is: Can you teleport the American Civil War to the

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-30 Thread meekerdb
On 6/30/2012 2:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It seems to me that with functionalism a human identity cannot necessarily be different from a any sufficiently complex functional interaction. Something like a war, for instance involves lots of dynamic i/o, 'processing', etc. My question then is:

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 6/30/2012 7:35 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 6/30/2012 2:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It seems to me that with functionalism a human identity cannot necessarily be different from a any sufficiently complex functional interaction. Something like a war, for instance involves lots of dynamic i/o,

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-30 Thread meekerdb
On 6/30/2012 5:38 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 6/30/2012 7:35 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 6/30/2012 2:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It seems to me that with functionalism a human identity cannot necessarily be different from a any sufficiently complex functional interaction. Something like a war,

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 6/30/2012 9:56 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 6/30/2012 5:38 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 6/30/2012 7:35 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 6/30/2012 2:52 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It seems to me that with functionalism a human identity cannot necessarily be different from a any sufficiently complex

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Jun 2012, at 18:16, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: comp allows self-duplication. That is the key point. OK. If you really had complete information then you could make 2 predictions: 1) I Bruno Marchal will write in my diary I Bruno

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-29 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 2:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I explains why people think, I could have done otherwise. Regardless of what they think the irrefutable fact remains that they did NOT do otherwise, and they did not do otherwise for a reason or they did not. They could,

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-29 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You said yourself that the first person cannot be defined. How could we verify that prediction? Except by feeling to be one of the W and M reconstituted person. And from their points of viex, the prediction of being in both place is

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-28 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: comp allows self-duplication. That is the key point. OK. If you really had complete information then you could make 2 predictions: 1) I Bruno Marchal will write in my diary I Bruno Marchal am now in Washington and only Washington

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-28 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I think the claim that, It's either determined or random. is misleading. Thoughts and actions may be determined in the sense of constrained to a fairly narrow probability distribution, and yet random. it is a deterministic certainty

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-28 Thread meekerdb
On 6/28/2012 9:31 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I think the claim that, It's either determined or random. is misleading. Thoughts and actions may be determined in the sense of constrained to a fairly

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-27 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Step 2 is that the diary of the one teleported does not mention the delays of reconstitution in absence of third person clue. Obviously true. Step 3, is that no machine can predict the content of its personal future diaries

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jun 2012, at 17:51, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Step 2 is that the diary of the one teleported does not mention the delays of reconstitution in absence of third person clue. Obviously true. Step 3, is that no machine can predict

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-27 Thread meekerdb
On 6/27/2012 8:51 AM, John Clark wrote: Mot plausibly two minds because complex self-reference is chaotic and mind state diverge from very little difference. Maybe, but I doubt if it's like the butterfly effect, I doubt if its quite as sensitive as that, otherwise we would not be

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-27 Thread meekerdb
On 6/27/2012 9:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Not counting quantum randomness the only reason the many diaries will be different is that the many authors of those many diaries, you, end up in different environments. Specifically due to the fact that comp allows self-duplication. That is the key

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Jun 2012, at 19:57, meekerdb wrote: On 6/27/2012 9:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Not counting quantum randomness the only reason the many diaries will be different is that the many authors of those many diaries, you, end up in different environments. Specifically due to the fact

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 1:51 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: If you really had complete information then you could make 2 predictions: 1) I Bruno Marchal will write in my diary I Bruno Marchal am now in Washington and only Washington. 2) I Bruno Marchal will write in my diary I

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-26 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: It's not that we don't know what we are going to do, but we don't know what we are going to experience A distinction without a difference, experiencing something is doing something. it is impossible to have complete information

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Jun 2012, at 21:01, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The question is do you agree with it, or not. So that we can move to step 4. I've lost track, is step 3 the trivial observation that sometimes we don't know what we're going to do,

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Jun 2012, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: On 6/25/2012 12:01 PM, John Clark wrote: or to two identical (similar at the subst. level) machine put in different environment, If they were in different environments then the machines would not be identical or even functionally identical and

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-26 Thread meekerdb
On 6/26/2012 10:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Jun 2012, at 21:01, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The question is do you agree with it, or not. So that we can move to step 4. I've lost track, is step 3 the

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Jun 2012, at 22:29, meekerdb wrote: On 6/24/2012 10:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And then if I luckily succeed in computing the electron mass 9.10938291×10-31kg, Brent will tell me that we already knew that, and ask for something else. Well if you do it by luck... But of course

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Jun 2012, at 01:08, Russell Standish wrote: On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 01:29:31PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 6/24/2012 10:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And then if I luckily succeed in computing the electron mass 9.10938291×10^-31 kg, Brent will tell me that we already knew that, and ask

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-25 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The first person indeterminacy is a fact, with respect to comp. First person indeterminacy is a fact with respect to ANYTHING, sometimes you don't know what you're going to do till you do it. I find your theoretical prediction of

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Jun 2012, at 18:24, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The first person indeterminacy is a fact, with respect to comp. First person indeterminacy is a fact with respect to ANYTHING, sometimes you don't know what you're going to do till you

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-25 Thread meekerdb
On 6/25/2012 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For the reasoning, we don't have to attribute two first person povs to one 3-viewed machine, but to attribute one first person povs to two different 3-viewed machine, and eventually number relations. It looks like you want me to believe that the

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-25 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The question is do you agree with it, or not. So that we can move to step 4. I've lost track, is step 3 the trivial observation that sometimes we don't know what we're going to do, or was that step 2? You ignore that we can test

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-25 Thread meekerdb
On 6/25/2012 12:01 PM, John Clark wrote: or to two identical (similar at the subst. level) machine put in different environment, If they were in different environments then the machines would not be identical or even functionally identical and their associated minds would be

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-25 Thread Jason Resch
On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 2:01 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The question is do you agree with it, or not. So that we can move to step 4. I've lost track, is step 3 the trivial observation that sometimes we don't

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-25 Thread meekerdb
On 6/25/2012 3:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 2:01 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The question is do you agree with it, or not.

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-24 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Jun 2012, at 18:02, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Something is not primitive if you can derive it from something simpler. You don't think the electron is primitive, so show me how to derive its mass, spin, and electrical charge from

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-24 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You don't think the electron is primitive, so show me how to derive its mass, spin, and electrical charge from something simpler. We must first derive its existence/appearance. But that was exactly what I asked you to

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-24 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Jun 2012, at 17:16, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You don't think the electron is primitive, so show me how to derive its mass, spin, and electrical charge from something simpler. We must first derive its

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-24 Thread meekerdb
On 6/24/2012 10:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And then if I luckily succeed in computing the electron mass 9.10938291×10^-31 kg, Brent will tell me that we already knew that, and ask for something else. Well if you do it by luck... But of course I'd be very impressed if you could calculate it

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-24 Thread Russell Standish
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 01:29:31PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 6/24/2012 10:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And then if I luckily succeed in computing the electron mass 9.10938291×10^-31 kg, Brent will tell me that we already knew that, and ask for something else. Well if you do it by luck...

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 Jun 2012, at 20:24, meekerdb wrote: On 6/22/2012 12:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: 2) The fact that there is no algorithm to decide if a program compute some function does not ential that we cannot recognize what do some program. You mean there is no algorithm that, given any

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-23 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: This quantization of time is easily seen as problematic when we consider that SR tells us that any granulation of time is equivalent to a grnulation of space which has observable effect. All physicists agree that neither

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-23 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Something is not primitive if you can derive it from something simpler. You don't think the electron is primitive, so show me how to derive its mass, spin, and electrical charge from something simpler. John K Clark -- You

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 20 Jun 2012, at 19:37, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 3:39 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: It's true that if you knew the numerical value of Chaitin's Constant then you would know that if a 100 bit program had not stopped after a Turing Machine had run n number

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 20 Jun 2012, at 20:23, Stephen P. King wrote: On 6/20/2012 3:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Jun 2012, at 19:41, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 6:01 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Unlike the proton and neutron nobody has found any experimental evidence that

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-22 Thread meekerdb
On 6/22/2012 12:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: 2) The fact that there is no algorithm to decide if a program compute some function does not ential that we cannot recognize what do some program. You mean there is no algorithm that, given any program, the algorithm can always answer yes or no to

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-22 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: I think that we agree that [time] transitions are occurring! Maybe time changes as a smooth transition, maybe it's a series of discrete jumps, it would look the same to us either way, and even if our best instruments were a

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-22 Thread Stephen P. King
On 6/22/2012 4:11 PM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: I think that we agree that [time] transitions are occurring! Maybe time changes as a smooth transition, maybe it's a series of discrete jumps, it would

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-21 Thread Stephen P. King
On 6/21/2012 11:41 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: Do you [Bruno] stand by that implication, that matter is primitive = not explainable from non material relation? This implies that: matter is

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-20 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 Jun 2012, at 19:41, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 6:01 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Unlike the proton and neutron nobody has found any experimental evidence that the electron has a inner structure, that it is made of parts. The primitive matter I talk

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-20 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 3:39 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: It's true that if you knew the numerical value of Chaitin's Constant then you would know that if a 100 bit program had not stopped after a Turing Machine had run n number of finite operations then it never will; but the

Re: Autonomy? A proposal

2012-06-19 Thread Stephen P. King
On 6/18/2012 5:13 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Brent, Stephen, On 18 Jun 2012, at 18:55, Stephen P. King wrote: On 6/18/2012 11:51 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 6/18/2012 1:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Because consciousness, to be relatively manifestable, introduced a separation between me and not

Re: Autonomy?

2012-06-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 Jun 2012, at 00:08, meekerdb wrote: On 6/18/2012 2:13 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Brent, Stephen, On 18 Jun 2012, at 18:55, Stephen P. King wrote: On 6/18/2012 11:51 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 6/18/2012 1:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Because consciousness, to be relatively

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