Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 7:52:46 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 3:05 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > *What in matter is not simulatable in arithmetic is experience.* >> > > That's just a specific example of a more general concept, change. If you > have an

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 9:39 AM Martin Abramson wrote: >"Anything with the capacity to change will do and that's why one carbon > atom is a good as another." Please explain. m.a. > Science can not tell the difference between one carbon atom and another (if they are of the same isotope), good

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

"Anything with the capacity to change will do and that's why one carbon atom is a good as another." Please explain. m.a. On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 8:52 AM John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 3:05 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > *What in matter is not simulatable in arithmetic is

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 3:05 AM Philip Thrift wrote: > *What in matter is not simulatable in arithmetic is experience.* > That's just a specific example of a more general concept, change. If you have an experience you have changed, you're different than if you did not have the experience.

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 5:45:33 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 5:32 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > >> *>What in “matter” plays the role of not being able to be emulated in >> arithmetic.* >> > > Intelligence needs change. Matter can change in both time and space.

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 5:32 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: >>My commitment is with the scientific method, so when you make outlandish >> claims (*matter is not needed to make calculations Robison arithmetic >> alone can do so, Kleene’s predicate T(x, y, z) can encode information*) >> I ask you to

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On 11/27/2018 2:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Nov 2018, at 15:41, John Clark > wrote: On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 4:40 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: Dennett's said: “/The elusive subjective conscious experience—the redness of red,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 4:32:53 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 24 Nov 2018, at 17:27, John Clark > > wrote: > > > > > Turing explained how matter can behave intelligently, > > > No. He showed how a person can be attached to a computation, and also that > physics is Turing

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 25 Nov 2018, at 15:41, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 4:40 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > Dennett's said: > > “The elusive subjective conscious experience—the redness of red, the > painfulness of pain—that philosophers call qualia? Sheer

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 24 Nov 2018, at 17:27, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 8:31 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > in a precise context, when doing science/mathematics, it is useful to have > > precise mathematical definition. > > Sure definitions can be useful but

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 4:40 AM Philip Thrift wrote: Dennett's said: “*The elusive subjective conscious experience—the redness of red, the painfulness of pain—that philosophers call qualia? Sheer illusion*.” The trouble with the above statement isn't so much that it's false, the trouble is

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 5:10:49 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 11/24/2018 5:39 AM, John Clark wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 1:10 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> Some in AI will say if something is just informationally intelligent >> (or pseudo-intelligent) but not

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 6:10 PM Brent Meeker wrote: *>The question is whether the AI will ever infer it is not conscious. * Perhaps reverse solipsism is true, maybe what I think of as consciousness is just a very pale reflection of the true glorious feeling of consciousness that you and

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 3:14 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > I think one problem for us is as artificial/synthetic intelligence > technology advances: When (if ever) do these entities get "rights"? > There is no point in pondering that because the question is moot. The big unknown is not what rights

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On 11/24/2018 5:39 AM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 1:10 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: /> Some in AI will say if something is just informationally intelligent (or pseudo-intelligent) but not experientially intelligent then it will not ever

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 7:40:26 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 1:10 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> Some in AI will say if something is just informationally intelligent >> (or pseudo-intelligent) but not experientially intelligent then it will not >> ever

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 11:40 AM Quentin Anciaux wrote: *> Strangely you're not as hard with yourself when you advertise > manyworld... Just show us a parallel universe then... Until you apply to > your own beliefs your own methods, It will just be dismissive BS.* > I can't show you a parallel

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 17:28, John Clark a écrit : > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 8:31 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > > >> > *in a precise context, when doing science/mathematics, it is useful to >> have precise mathematical definition.* >> > > Sure definitions can be useful but they never cause things to

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 8:31 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > > *in a precise context, when doing science/mathematics, it is useful to > have precise mathematical definition.* > Sure definitions can be useful but they never cause things to pop into existence or can tell you anything about the nature

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 1:10 PM Philip Thrift wrote: *> Some in AI will say if something is just informationally intelligent (or > pseudo-intelligent) but not experientially intelligent then it will not > ever be remarkably creative - in literature, music, painting, or even > science.* >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 11:40:23 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 12:22 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >> > True intelligence is *experiential intelligence*. >> > > What sort of intelligence do your fellow human beings have? How does true > intelligence

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 12:22 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > > True intelligence is *experiential intelligence*. > What sort of intelligence do your fellow human beings have? How does true intelligence behave differently than untrue intelligence? If untrue intelligence can outsmart true

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 6:22:39 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 2:38 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> An alternative is that consciousness (or experientiality - in the >> philosophers' jargon) is intrinsic (more jargon) to matter. A change in >> matter would

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 22 Nov 2018, at 21:02, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:44 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >In logic, a model is a reality. > > If so then "reality" is a very silly thing and logicians are very silly > people. It is so, as again you would see if

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 2:38 AM Philip Thrift wrote: *> An alternative is that consciousness (or experientiality - in the > philosophers' jargon) is intrinsic (more jargon) to matter. A change in > matter would indeed change consciousness.* > Because a change in matter changes a computation and

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 2:02:55 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > > We've observed experimentally that a change in matter changes > consciousness and a change in consciousness changes matter, I don't see how > you could get better evidence than that indicating matter and consciousness

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 4:44 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: *>In logic, a model is a reality. * > If so then "reality" is a very silly thing and logicians are very silly people. *> A reality is anything which satisfies a theory* > And that is a very silly thing to say. Harry Potter flying on a broom

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 5:54:05 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 21 Nov 2018, at 15:11, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 3:48:31 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> Matter plays a fundamental role in sensibility, but that is a theorem in

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 21 Nov 2018, at 15:11, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 3:48:31 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Matter plays a fundamental role in sensibility, but that is a theorem in > Mechanism, and that “matter” is phenomenological. It does not exist in the >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 3:48:31 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > Matter plays a fundamental role in sensibility, but that is a theorem in > Mechanism, and that “matter” is phenomenological. It does not exist in the > base ontology. Or f it does, then how could it play a non

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 19 Nov 2018, at 21:50, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 4:54:47 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 16 Nov 2018, at 19:55, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, November 16, 2018 at 11:05:51 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 15 Nov

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 20 Nov 2018, at 00:44, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:24 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > The notion of model “modelises” the notion of reality. > > I see. No I take that back I don't see. What does that mean, how would things > look different

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

Today I am busy. I will answer this at ease later. Have a good day, Bruno > On 20 Nov 2018, at 00:44, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:24 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > The notion of model “modelises” the notion of reality. > > I see. No I take

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 5:24:48 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 17 Nov 2018, at 03:58, John Clark > > wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:42 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >> *> A practical difficulty here is that logicians used the term model like >> painters: the model is

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:24 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *> The notion of model “modelises” the notion of reality.* > I see. No I take that back I don't see. What does that mean, how would thing s look different if it were the other way around, what if the notion of reality realizes the notion

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 4:54:47 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 16 Nov 2018, at 19:55, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, November 16, 2018 at 11:05:51 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:13, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 17 Nov 2018, at 03:58, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:42 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > A practical difficulty here is that logicians used the term model like > > painters: the model is the reality > > Mathematician can use one part of

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 16 Nov 2018, at 19:55, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, November 16, 2018 at 11:05:51 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:13, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 5:15:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 13 Nov

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:42 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *> A practical difficulty here is that logicians used the term model like > painters: the model is the reality* > Mathematician can use one part of mathematics to model another part, for example Descartes found a way for geometry to model

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Friday, November 16, 2018 at 11:05:51 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:13, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 5:15:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 13 Nov 2018, at 11:06, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 15 Nov 2018, at 19:14, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 6:27 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >> I see precisely ZERO evidence that "phi_u(x, y)" can emulate a machine or > emulate anything a or in fact do anything at all because "phi_u(x, y)" never

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:13, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 5:15:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 13 Nov 2018, at 11:06, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 8:35:23 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> A model is

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 6:27 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: >> I see precisely ZERO evidence that "phi_u(x, y)" can emulate a machine >> or emulate anything a or in fact do anything at all because "phi_u(x, y)" >> never changes, not in time and not in space. You wrote "phi_u(x, y)" in >> the above

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 5:15:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 13 Nov 2018, at 11:06, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 8:35:23 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> A model is a model of a theory. The notion of model of a model can make >>

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 13 Nov 2018, at 15:38, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 9:35 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >> You've got it backwards, physics can simulate a Turing Machine but a > >> Turing Machine can't simulate anything or do anything at all without the > >>

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 13 Nov 2018, at 11:06, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 8:35:23 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > A model is a model of a theory. The notion of model of a model can make > sense, by considering non axiomatisable theory, but that can lead to > confusion, so

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 9:35 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: >> You've got it backwards, physics can simulate a Turing Machine but a >> Turing Machine can't simulate anything or do anything at all without the >> help of matter that obeys the laws of physics. > > > *> That is plainly false. If u is a

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 8:35:23 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > A model is a model of a theory. The notion of model of a model can make > sense, by considering non axiomatisable theory, but that can lead to > confusion, so it is better to avoid this. When a model is seen as a

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 10 Nov 2018, at 17:09, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 1:09 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > Any Turing machine can emulate any Turing complete subset of physics. > > You've got it backwards, physics can simulate a Turing Machine but a Turing >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 1:09 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > Any Turing machine can emulate any Turing complete subset of physics. You've got it backwards, physics can simulate a Turing Machine but a Turing Machine can't simulate anything or do anything at all without the help of matter that obeys

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 11:38:51 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 8 Nov 2018, at 14:30, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 5:23:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 7 Nov 2018, at 21:40, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 8 Nov 2018, at 15:35, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 9:57 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > for consciousness, which needs a relation between a brain, and truth. > > Hallucinations exist. Hallucinations have still a relation with truth

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 8 Nov 2018, at 14:30, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 5:23:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 7 Nov 2018, at 21:40, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 9:31:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 6 Nov

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 8:36:17 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 9:57 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > >> *> Alan Turing used his material brain, yes, but that has nothing to do >> with the fact that he gave a definition of computation* [...] >> > >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 9:57 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > > *for consciousness, which needs a relation between a brain, and truth.* > Hallucinations exist. > > *That needed truth needs also to be independent of the brain.* > Hallucinations are not independent of the brain. > *Information

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 5:23:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 7 Nov 2018, at 21:40, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 9:31:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 6 Nov 2018, at 10:58, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 7 Nov 2018, at 21:40, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 9:31:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 6 Nov 2018, at 10:58, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:52:23 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 9:31:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 10:58, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:52:23 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 6 Nov 2018, at 17:27, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 4:05 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > Even “Deep Blue”, the program who win Chess tournaments, would not be > > interestingly described as a bunch of atoms, > > Seems pretty damn interesting to

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 6 Nov 2018, at 10:58, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:52:23 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark > wrote: >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 6 Nov 2018, at 09:52, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark > wrote: >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift > > wrote: >> >> > If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 6 Nov 2018, at 00:18, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > From: Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> >> >> We cannot identify first person notion with third person notion. A subtlety >> is that physics is, eventually, shown to be first person plural, and not >> third person as usually believed

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 5 Nov 2018, at 14:35, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 6:33 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > Experience is manifested by information processing. But experience per se > > is not information processing. > > A car is not "fast" but going fast is what

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

Why not make this point at the conference? You have until November 12 to submit your paper. On 03-11-2018 18:01, John Clark wrote: As long as both are intelligent how could you tell the difference between a conscious AI System and a non-conscious AI System? If you can't then shouldn't you be

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 4:10 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: *> In the theology of the machine, this is the confusion between* > [... Sorry, I didn't see what you said after that, I fell asleep. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 4:05 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *Even “Deep Blue”, the program who win Chess tournaments, would not be > interestingly described as a bunch of atoms,* > Seems pretty damn interesting to me. > *> as it do not lost his identity when run on a different machine.* > Huh?

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:52:23 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> *> If experience (Galen

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 5 Nov 2018, at 02:56, Martin Abramson wrote: > > Consciousness is a program. Consciousness might be related to a program, but is not a program, that would identify a first person notion with a third person notion, like a glass of bear and its price. > It explores whatever entity it

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 4 Nov 2018, at 23:18, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:45 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > It's that experience (not just information) that needs processing to > > produce consciousness. > > A experience is a memory and memory is information

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 4 Nov 2018, at 20:25, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 12:18:48 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:19 AM Mark Buda > wrote: > > > Information is only processed in minds, not in physical systems, > > A brain is a physical system. Mind is

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 4 Nov 2018, at 19:18, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:19 AM Mark Buda > wrote: > > > Information is only processed in minds, not in physical systems, > > A brain is a physical system. Mind is what the brain does. I think our > fundamental

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark > > wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of Experience) is the result >> of information (only)

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:45 PM Brent Meeker wrote: > *I think I would feel better being outsmarted by an unconscious robot > than a conscious robot.* > I wouldn't feel bad if Einstein outsmarted me but if something that was only "pseudo" intelligent did I'd feel pretty stupid. John K Clark

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

From: *Bruno Marchal* mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> We cannot identify first person notion with third person notion. A subtlety is that physics is, eventually, shown to be first person plural, and not third person as usually believed today. That is merely a consequence of your idiosyncratic

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 3:55:14 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 11/5/2018 1:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 11/5/2018 8:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 6:56:42 AM

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On 11/5/2018 1:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: On 11/5/2018 8:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 6:56:42 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:40 AM Philip Thrift

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 11/5/2018 8:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 6:56:42 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:40 AM Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> > I agree with those scientists who that

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On 11/5/2018 8:54 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 6:56:42 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:40 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > I agree with those scientists who that say something isn't truly intelligent unless it is also

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On 11/5/2018 12:40 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 6:49:12 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 7:22 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: /> By "experience", philosophers (like Galen Strawson, Philip Goff) mean that which you have within

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 6:56:42 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:40 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > I agree with those scientists who that say something isn't truly >> intelligent unless it is also conscious. >> > > Then you have no way of knowing if any of your

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 6:33 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *Experience is manifested by information processing. But experience per > se is not information processing.* > A car is not "fast" but going fast is what a car does. A brain is not a mind but mind is what a brain does. Information processing

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:40 AM Philip Thrift wrote: > I agree with those scientists who that say something isn't truly > intelligent unless it is also conscious. > Then you have no way of knowing if any of your fellow human beings are "truly intelligent" because you have no way of knowing if

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 4 Nov 2018, at 14:53, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of Experience) is the result of > > information (only) processing, > > If? If information is not the thing

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

> On 4 Nov 2018, at 12:23, Philip Thrift wrote: > > On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 6:02:50 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:49 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >Information processing can ultimately lead to just a type of intelligence: > >pseudo-intelligence: >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 6:49:12 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 7:22 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> By "experience", philosophers (like Galen Strawson, Philip Goff) mean >> that which you have within yourself right now: the awareness that* [...] >> > >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

Consciousness is a program. It explores whatever entity it finds itself within and becomes that creature's awareness of the world. For humans it becomes the identity or soul which responds to anything that affects the organism. It can be uploaded into a data bank but otherwise it dissipates with

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 7:22 PM Philip Thrift wrote: *> By "experience", philosophers (like Galen Strawson, Philip Goff) mean > that which you have within yourself right now: the awareness that* [...] > Awareness? But awareness is just another word for consciousness, so when you say "*It's that

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 4:18:48 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:45 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > It's that experience (not just information) that needs processing to >> produc*e consciousness*. >> > > A experience is a memory and memory is information so

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:19 AM Mark Buda wrote: *> I put it to you that artificial general intelligence and artificial > consciousness are exactly the same thing.To construct one is to construct > the other. Any AGI is going to be able to do anything a human can do, which > includes argue

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:45 AM Philip Thrift wrote: > It's that experience (not just information) that needs processing to > produc*e consciousness*. > A experience is a memory and memory is information so experience processing is information processing. > But I say there can be unconscious

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

In the AI news: *Human brain' supercomputer with 1 million processors switched on for first time* - https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/human-brain-supercomputer-with-1million-processors-switched-on-for-first-time/ *SpiNNaker* *breaks the rules followed by traditional supercomputers

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

John Clark writes: > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:19 AM Mark Buda wrote: > > > Information is only processed in minds, not in physical systems, > > A brain is a physical system. Mind is what the brain does. I think our > fundamental disagreement is you think "Mark Buda" is a noun but I > think

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 12:18:48 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:19 AM Mark Buda > > wrote: > > *> Information is only processed in minds, not in physical systems,* >> > > A brain is a physical system. Mind is what the brain does. I think our > fundamental

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:19 AM Mark Buda wrote: *> Information is only processed in minds, not in physical systems,* > A brain is a physical system. Mind is what the brain does. I think our fundamental disagreement is you think "Mark Buda" is a noun but I think you're a adjective, you're the

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

I agree of course with Richard Rorty who said that the idea there is a mind that something that is outside the brain/body is one of the worst ideas ever concocted in history. Information is processed in computers with electrons moving in electronic circuits. - pt On Sunday, November 4,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 7:54:19 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of Experience) is the result >> of information (only) processing, * >> > > If? If information is not the thing that

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

I put it to you that artificial general intelligence and artificial consciousness are exactly the same thing. To construct one is to construct the other. Any AGI is going to be able to do anything a human can do, which includes argue convincingly with you that it has consciousness. It might be

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

Information is only processed in minds, not in physical systems, unless you can show that minds are physical systems. I believe minds are mathematical objects, as are physical systems, and that minds are a particular kind of mathematical object. I strongly suspect that the particular kind of

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 6:23 AM Philip Thrift wrote: *> If experience (Galen Strawson, The Subject of Experience) is the result > of information (only) processing, * > If? If information is not the thing that needs processing to produce intelligence then what is? > then the argument for

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 6:02:50 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:49 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >> *>Information processing can ultimately lead to just a type of >> intelligence: pseudo-intelligence:* >> *Artificial intelligence isn't synthetic intelligence:

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