Well,
I can only offer what I have noticed here on only a few designs where I have
used the autorouter.
First if there are very very few traces on the board that are critical i.e.
need to be hand routed and locked prior
to the autoroute function the router actually does a pretty decent job. But
Guess its still years behind.
Just like the matched length capability, kinda like
a car that does have a steering wheel but it is for future use only not
connected to anything. There to say we can steer a car but at some later
date.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: John Ross [EMAIL
Mike,
100% Correct.
Bob Wolfe
Mike wrote
I disagree,This is expensive software. I purchase $49.00 software and
complain to store managers if my $49.00 package doesnt work, why shouldnt
ALTIUM receive heat from us about not correcting bugs and not meeting our
expectations. We are the
Guys,
No, Cadence has always had a Studio ver. out
it is their LOW end seat. They usually had deals
for about 11-12K for it though I guess they went up a
bit. They limt number of auto-routable layer at once,
and limt signal inegrity rules a bit. Check their web site
if you really want to find out
Darryl,
I guess you have not seen the VeriBest (I mean Mentor Expedition) Router and
interactive capability, In my opinion only, Specctra can't even come close.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Darryl Newberry [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:
one that you are talking about the entry level one for
about $10K.
JaMi
* * * * * *
- Original Message -
From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen
: [PEDA] Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!
!!!
- Original Message -
From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer
will give you an incomplete net. This is usaually not
fatal as you get all your connection holes plated anyway. I tried several
ways to locate the non-plated items with varying degrees of success.
-Original Message-
From: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, August
Linden,
Well the IPC land patterns are in fact a very good
place to start. However you are right there is a later
version coming out which does in fact address the needs
of most situations. The version you have gave a broad
range in tolerenaces and yes if you go towards the
can be assembled any
Well ADEEL,
I am afraid that to actually have the system (99SE, don't
know about DXP) match these leghts it will not do it,
I was told any auto-router function, and this is one
will not ahere to these rules. I tried it a few times where
there was plenty of room to match the lengths
of a delay
.
You can then do a DRC to check the lengths. DRC takes the shortest
track/net in
the netclass
and compares the other nets to it
Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 08/13/2002 10:55:53 PM
Please respond to Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc
in Spectra without
adding
length to the longest trace. Time will tell if it works on DXP.
I think I need to join the DXP forum to see if this was fixed.
Mike Reagan
EDSI
Frederick
- Original Message -
From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL
To All,
In my haste to get an answer by covering a few bases
I posted here. I did find the answer in Knowledge Base
Item # 1472 there is in fact a limitation in gerber
drill chart legend, based on what you pick for
drill representation. I of course always picked symbol
which was the most limited
Mike Ian,
Yup another 100% agree, if a design requires
test points I put them all as parts in the schematic
otherwise the way Protel handles doing them from
all aspects is pretty much absolutely useless from a design standpoint. I
played around a bit early on to see if I could
get something
To All on this one,
I have also been in this situation
with a board I had to use the update free primitive
to connected copper. IMHO this is a VERY VERY dangerous command unless you
are ABSOLUTELY sure there is nothing touching any pads that it should
not be. I have used fottprints of pads
Well Joey,
Protel must have been on crack
when they DID NOT make the pan
funtion on right mouse button work EXACTLY
the same in both editors PCB Schematic.
That one really fries me!!! Can't tell
how many times I still go for that RT Button
to pan in the Schematic. So I use window and full
zoom
and over again. If the pcb still has drc
errors
then there is a problem in the pcb file.
I have used this process for hundreds of designs, and hundreds of
thousands
connections. It has never failed me
Mike Reagan
EDSI
Frederick MD
- Original Message -
From: Robert M
IT'S ALIVE!
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Michael Reagan (EDSI) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] AW: DXP Variants / version control
Georg wrote
I bought the upgrade and estimate to run it
I would be for an SP7,
however I think it more important that
Altium very clearly define their support
strategy for 99SE, which I do not believe they have.
Have they actually released an end of support
date for 99SE?? If not they need to do so.
I realize in a perfect world they would love
to
Mike,
I truly believe if you did take a real hard look at other
programs and truly look at all of the expense involved,
you may actually wonder how these lower end systems
can claim they are a fraction of the cost.
I really mean each feature and how long it takes
between CAD systems etc.
If you
Yup,
On Win2KPro.
Same here and random, it does hang,
and lately sometimes it even blows you out of
Protel while compacting and does not complete
the compact so I have to do it manually.
But so far no show stopper just very annoying.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Brad Velander
Mike,
I would absolutely agree Mentor Expedition (VeriBest)
has the cream product with Allegro just behind and like I said earlier if
you really
look at how a function is done etc you will
absolutely save time and money in long run.
I do feel the VeriBest router still beats Specctra though.
If
Colin,
Thats what I thought too when I mentioned
Keyin netlist in previous post. I thought for sure
Orcad if not others can export a compatible
netlist to Expedition, also I new it would take
in a netlist. That realy is the issue whether or
not the format is there not that it can't do a
netlist
Abd ul-Rahman wrote.
This command has no effect on your existing routing, except when you
manually add a track that creates a loop. In that case it will rip up the
old path.
Not so sure this is 100% true I have had it take out extra power vias even
though they were not attached to the
traces I
Tim,
One of my major complaints about Protel is its lack
of assembly layer capability, there should be 2 other
layers call them mechanical or whatever that automatically
mirror AND change to a designated other layer when
that part is pushed to bottom or top. The Top Bottom Overlay layers do
this
Brad,
The only problem I still see with this is the fact that this ONE
mechanical layer is in fact still one layer and not easily
if at all able to be separated out for the bottom assembly view.
If there is a way I would love to hear it, I have in fact used
a mechanical layer in my library for an
I'm with ya Ivan,
It's not just for 2 layer boards though.
If you have 100 rpaks on a board it sure
can come in handy.
I STILL cannot believe that pingate swapping
is not part of 99SE. It is a Royal PITA not to
have that capability What a total waste of time
and effort to have to go back
PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com
Norsat's Microwave Products Division has now achieved ISO 9001:2000
certification
-Original Message-
From: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:01 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] You
Bill,
Very well said.
Yes the software has to work well or at least
work well in th emost important areas, and
at least be easy to use. Build it and they WILL come.
Too often they forget or not want to sow those seeds.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Brooks,Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mike,
SOunds like th edesign has not ever been compacted.
The big down arrow in upper left corner has the
utilities to do this. I have seen if you are installing
Protel on WIN98 this does not happen by
default however on anNT or 2000 install it
set up the compact on design close.
Bob Wolfe
Brad,
This is somewhat related, I did see the exact same thing happen to
another designer here an dwas not involved enough to determine
what had happened, but just some nets had connectivity
problems and also it put parts off the design area on first
update PCB. He also had a few crashes too. I
: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 6:03 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE SP6 Problem with Update PCB generating
duplicate nets or ot her errors.
Brad,
SNIP
Sorry I don't have an answer to correct the problem
but just saying I
Ian Brad,
Ya got my vote on this one 100%. Both well said.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT - Complex boards and time to Layout?
On 08:26 PM
Bevin,
You may want to get involved with a Chapter
of the IPC Designers Council. There is
much info about it and some industry links
also at www.ipc.org
This would be at least a good place to start
and it should point you to many other options.
There are also many training sessions offered.
Bob
With static
Protection
Bob,
I have one in the download section of
http://www.geocities.com/uytenhaak/pcb/
regards,
Ben Uijtenhaak
-Original Message-
From: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: donderdag 10 oktober 2002 2:11
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: [PEDA] Static
Well Rob,
Just a question before my comment.
I assume you are definitely talking about 4-way connections? (wasn't
absolutely sure with description
after the +)
If so then I would say that they are a very bad practice.
I kind of look at it the same way as someone who
does all kinds of rule bending
of the
appropriate option in DXP Optimize Wires and Buses that rebuilds wires
when bringing in suspect designs from P99SE until these 4 way junctions
can
be found and changed.
Rob
- Original Message -
From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent
Mike,
Listen funny you should mention this I had a very similar situation,
only with place polygon. Didn't think much of it at the time, just
chaulked it up to another wierd Protel thing.
But I was placing a polygon and when finished drawing the
shape the polygon was invisable, if you double
To All,
Just a thought.
If there is no means of DRC'ing silkscreen
with repsect to pads (or anything else for that matter)
then WHY is it that Protel runs a DRC (which does
take a few seconds) eveytime a Ref Des on Silkscreen
layer is moved It's not an electrical item yet
I see it annalizing
Don't know the answer but if anyone does I'd love
to hear it too. Could solve yet another too many step process from this
system. And one would think
that when the update footprints is checked while
doing a synchronize it would do all of them,
but no.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
process, it updated one footprint at a time it
didn't work like I thought I was seeing
Mike
- Original Message -
From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Update several PCB
I almost was't going to read to the bottom of this one,
but nearly fell off my chair in uncontrolable laughter (glad I did). Then
realized that is pretty much what Protel told me when I asked basically
the same question awhile ago. I listened to how great all the new features
were and how TOTALLY
2nd that motion.
That is really true with most cad systems, Cadnetix (an old system)
actually used your own library parts to represent the gerber read back into
the CAD system, so no check there at all. Even when VeriBest came about
originally they gave you the ability to check your gerbers
using
Ian,
Very happy to see they are REALLY looking
hard at the Library Update capabilities.
That was a very very big sore spot for me,
with 99SE. I was really hoping they would
do much more with it. How they ultimately
handle that will be a major part of decision
to go DXP or something else. I wish
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com
Check out our fall promotion at www.norsat.com. Limited quantities. Sale
ends December 24, 2002.
Contact your Account Manager or call 1-800-NII-4LNB or email
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto:[EMAIL
(604) 292-9010
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com
Check out our fall promotion at www.norsat.com. Limited quantities. Sale
ends December 24, 2002.
Contact your Account Manager or call 1-800-NII-4LNB or email
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Robert M. Wolfe
Brad,
Just saw this post after I responded to your previous.
Well, here might be a simple explanation. Say you have a customer using
Orcad (pretty widely used Schematic tool) and the footprint field was not
what your library
had for names. Problem is that Protel takes
in an Orcad Schematic fine
On 11:42 AM 4/12/2002 +1100, Hugh Stevenson said:
It seems that an option to update or not update each field of the
components on the schematic is the only way to keep everyone happy.
Ian gives meaningful look...
That would get my vote, at least you could have the control
if needed.
But if
PROTECTED]
http://www.norsat.com
Check out our fall promotion at www.norsat.com. Limited quantities. Sale
ends December 24, 2002.
Contact your Account Manager or call 1-800-NII-4LNB or email
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent
Igor Ian,
Thanks, but it wasn't me banging on the keyboard,
it was the engineer. And he did just burn it out the other
day and had to get a new one.
Sorry to be a bit long winded.
I see where both you and Ian are coming from, also
Ian is right, may not be able to satisfy both camps.
I may try to
Don,
I did not read all responses, but like the ones
I did read is it gerber or drill data that is
giving info.
If gerber the other item that I don't think was mentioned
is the fact that using symbols for drill dwg, there are only 12 or 16
of those symbols default, and
when you run the GERBER
Don,
Sorry, finally got to your own post
seeing you discovered the problem,
was what I answered.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Don Mayfield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: [PEDA] Gerber problem
Dear
Gisbert,
One possibility might be?
Protel is not an intelligent enough program to
automatically know after synchronization that these traces
now in a PCB and attached to pads that now have nets
associated with should also be part of that net.
That being said you need go to Design/Netlist Manager
Hello all,
Have a couple questions,
1. I have a database the other designer is working on and he swears
it jumped in size for no apparent reason. It was hovering around 4-5meg
after a compact an dall of a sudden it will only compact down to 6.5 meg.
which then puts it just over the 1.44 mark when
- Original Message -
From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:30 PM
Subject: [PEDA] Couple Questions Database Size Group moves/rotates
Hello all,
Have a couple questions,
1. I have a database the other
.
Just another thing to try.
Rob Young
- Original Message -
From: Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Couple Questions Database Size Group moves/rotates
JaMi,
Thanks for both
I did not follow this thread from beginning fully but,
In CAM Outputs go to 'ToolsPreferences'
In the CAM prefernces you can set it to overwrite
or create a time stamped new folder each time you output,
also you can put each type of output in separate folders, drill, gerber,
etc.
I found it
Hello,
I believe there was a thread on this subject which
also had split neg. planes within its thread. I never
really ended up with an answer.
So dealing with polygons and not split planes,
what is the proper way to handle plane within plane.
I do remember something about not overlapping, but
Well I guess that is also why when you move a Ref Des on a
part that is tied to VCC or GND it take a bit of time
to keep analyzing VCC under DRC. Never seen a
system do that. I can see a need to specifically drc silkscreen
to pads etc on the board but not every time you touch a Ref'Des.
And yes
Abd ul-Rahman
Isn't this just really saying the silkscreen IS the defining factor
IMHO the silkscreen layer should never have been used as an indicator
or ultimately the real extents of a part. There really needs to be a user
defined layer that will be used at the extents of a part to check
Thanks Guys,
I would tend to agree about the extra work with multiple big pieces.
It really seems to work well if you keep that mechanical
layer outline of the big plane for ref. Because by the statement
of
(1) place the inner pours and fill them.
(2) place the outer pour and fill it.
This
JaMi wrote
And speaking of Protel reliability, I am not quite sure what exactly Bob
ment in his earlier post respecting an exception error about a .dll with
respect to pcb which he thought was related to the Polygon Plane, and which
apparently no one has really addressed, and just where that
Well,
For now,
The version of OS is Win2000 ProServer Win 2000 Pro
Pro Server is a slower 500MHz machine w/128M mem, the Pro is a 1.6G P4
unit with 128M mem.
I have not seen it happen yet on XP which at home here.
As far as plane settings go I will look and get back to you
but in all honesty I
Jami,
OK Polygon Planes is set to 0 grid, .4mm (.016) track width and
.2mm (.012) minimum size. 45 deg fill.
With these settings I have never seen problems before though.
Also one other note we just found out.
Ther is what I believe a via out of editable area
of board. I am not 100% sure it is
JaMi,
Well doing the cntrl delete did not work (unless there is again
something diff. about how to do a cntrl delete with Protel)
In other words can I use the keyboard delete key or do I need the
scizzors icon.
Either way though that did not seem to work, however
(and I hated to do this) but if I
Brad,
Thanks
I was finally able to get at the via by moving all, and yes that was the
only way to get at it.
However I have been able ot get at a footprints that
were out of bounds by selecting outside and it worked.
However no matter what I did with this via it would not
move it or delete it.
Ian,
Now that I have the via in outer space solved.
I was going to just try redoing the plane first, and if that did
not work yes I will try an ASCII out and poke around.
Thanks
Bob
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*
* To
Ian,
Let me get this straight.
So what you are saying here is that there really is no proper
update footprint?? (reason Protel does not understand the word
update) By that I mean if I have a library of footprints then
change say 10 of them. These 10 were used in a design.
I now would like to be
don't update
On 01:25 PM 28/05/2003, Robert M. Wolfe said:
Ian,
Let me get this straight.
So what you are saying here is that there really is no proper
update footprint?? (reason Protel does not understand the word
update) By that I mean if I have a library of footprints then
change say 10
Steve, Ian etc,
Just an add for XP Home.
The notebok had it on it and never bothered to upgrade to Pro.
I have been using XP Home with no problems at all.
Still have problems on Win2K Pro with shutdown though
process still hangs constantly, and sometimes the compress function
will hang up too and
Brad,
I noticed that parts go off center in 99SE also
when changing a parts location by typing
in the X,Y in properties menu.
Especially single pin parts for some reason.
The only way I saw to fix it was update footprint
from library, any better suggestions?
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message
Tony,
Really, in all honesty there was so much that
was the same just in a different place.
I will admit the querry deal needs a bit of work to make
it more usable, bur most of it is really very similar.
The biggest thing I have trouble with when you select
something on the design the browser or
Ivan,
Modern method (The New Capitalism):
VERY ACCURATE!
Sad part is, been there with a few companies that did pretty much
followed that economic plan!
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday,
As far as I know it was never fixed and it still hangs
many many times on close so end process
needs to be done to shut down a machine.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003
Michael,
Well not sure about 23, but on #1 I think I remember that
you really need to go to Rules and first turn off any room rules
then move or resize your room then turn those rules back on.
Whether or not it works right by turning off the rule at least
it won't slow way down by doing a drc
John,
Not sure if they did this yet but if the Autorouter for
PADS is now the Expedition (VeriBest) autorouter
I would state they not in the same ballpark,
and quite frankly not in the same universe.
Never looked at their Blaze Router though, but Expedition router
is best I've ever seen.
Bob Wolfe
, September 19, 2003 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
19/09/2003 13:50:25, Robert M. Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
but Expedition router is best I've ever seen.
Does that include things like Specctra? Will it bolt up to Protel in
any useful way?
(Since Situs seems doomed
really can't use it
for much.
Bob
- Original Message -
From: John A. Ross [Design] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE has Altzheimers' ?
-Original Message-
From: Robert M. Wolfe [mailto
You may also want to check out the IPC and Designers Council
They have a training course available too. But the Rigid PCB Design
Standards does have this info. There is also an IPC standards group
revising this type of data.
www.ipc.orgthen follow to Designers Council
Bob Wolfe
-
so the bottom line is that it would be nice if there were some
'standard' way to have this in the electronic file that did
not rely so much on operator skills and reading ability
both of which are on downward trends
doesn't the excellon format support slots?
Dennis,
Well that basically this
Well Tim,
Most is pretty straight forward and in all honesty
not that much different from 99SE, the only major
learning curve was how to look at or change data
with the new querry ability.
Also SP2 does not cut it for me really needed SP3 (still in BETA)
to make it worth the jump from 99SE. You be
Steve,
www.selectivesourcinginc.com
they are in New Hampshire and do provide scanning
of film to obtain gerber data.
Talk to Denise Witham 603-880-9304
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 7:39 PM
Subject: [PEDA]
Laurie,
Well, first answer would be get another CAD system, I know Expedition
can handle this no problem, just like you want it, however you may not like
the price.
But back to Protel. There are two possibilities that I know of in this tool.
They are;
linking to a database with all the particular
Dennis,
Absolutely and I wish they would too, I was just taking
the answer a little further with those outputs but
many CAD systems do support slots why shouldn't
Protel DXP.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dennis,
Placement Jaws on a SMT placement machine??
Don't remember seeing one with jaws, just a suction tip.
At least not on chip shooters, maybe to place much larger parts?
I thought jaws where only on PTH parts insertion systems.
I have not used supplied libraries from Protel either the
I believe it is not just on WIN XP it has
also happened on WIN2KPro
For me XP was fine but Win2k lost all use of HTML help.
Other help like on 99SE still worked.
Altium has stated to me it was a Windows problem. I have since
been to MS sites and email forums and there are alot of people
out there
Ian stated,
I have been asking Altium to make this sort of edit easier. If you have
just components selected you will see in the Inspector that the Name and
Component Comment fields are hyperlinks. I think that when you click on
one of these hyperlinks you should be able to edit those attributes
the inspector menu it will also take.
Bob Wolfe
- Original Message -
From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] 2004 Global edits
On 02:36 AM 28/03/2004, Robert M. Wolfe said:
Ian stated,
I
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