Re: [PEDA] six or eight-layer (or more?) stackups
I thought that the following stackup was prefered because then every signal is one layer from a ground plane. 1signal 2gnd 3signal 4pwr 5pwr 6signal 7gnd 8signal But then you don't have as good decoupling between your pwr and gnd planes, since they are farther apart. My stackup (as mentioned in an earlier post, and repeated below) gives you copper balance, better decoupling, and your signals are still only 1 layer away from a pwr or gnd plane. And since the pwr and gnd planes are effectively the same thing to high frequencies, a signal being next to a pwr plane is the same as that signal being next to a gnd plane. sig gnd1 pwr1 sig sig gnd2 pwr2 sig While we are on this subject, I like to use 0.01 uF caps for decoupling, not the 0.1 uF caps you frequently see on digital circuits. The reason is that 0.01 uF caps have a higher self-resonance frequency than 0.1 uF caps, which makes them better able to decouple the high-speed transients that are so common in today's circuits. Also, 0.01 uF caps are less expensive and take up less space (0805 vs. 1206). One last comment: DO NOT put vias within your pads. Some folks advocate this in order to reduce the track inductance from the part pin to the via. The problem is that this causes hell for manufacturing. During the reflow process, solder flows down into the via barrel, away from the part pin/pad junction, resulting in insufficient solder at the junction. Sorry if the previous 2 paragraphs are obvious, but there might be some folks lurking on this list who are new to PCB design and need a rehash of da rules. Or should I say (e)da rules. Whaddaya know, I was on topic this time... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] six or eight-layer (or more?) stackups The text book standard that is 1signal 2gnd 3signal 4gnd 5pwr 6signal 7pwr 8signal I thought that the following stackup was prefered because then every signal is one layer from a ground plane. 1signal 2gnd 3signal 4pwr 5pwr 6signal 7gnd 8signal Any comments? Also anyone else losing messages, or is it just my IT department and Lotus Notes? Robert D. LaMoreaux MTS Systems Corp. Powertrain Technology Division 4622 Runway Blvd. Ann Arbor, MI 48108 734-822-9696 Fax 734-973-1103 Main Desk 734-973- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] eight-layer stackup
I'd probably do it this way (top to bottom): sig gnd1 pwr1 sig sig gnd2 pwr2 sig Assumptions: your highest-speed parts are on the top side. gnd1 and pwr1 are your main power rails for the highest-speed parts. Whatever you do, keep each gnd plane and it's matching pwr plane adjacent to each other - the distributed capacitance of this arrangement helps in decoupling the supply rails. This is in addition to your decoupling caps, not to replace them. I don't have anything to say about the dogbones. I'm still using cat treats... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Michael Biggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 4:20 PM Subject: [PEDA] eight-layer stackup Anyone have a preferred method of stackup guidelines of web references to layer stackups for 8 layers using four power planes and four signal layers? I am torn between two methods being that I have two internal power planes. Thanks for any help! Also I have a couple of BGA's on this layout and when I run (using Protel99SE) my DRC everything is great other than the dogbones I had to route to the via on all the unused pins of the BGA. Any way to create rules for this so I do not get violations during DRC? Thanks again! MichaelB * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT: Unbalanced line into Balanced Input
- Running the unbalanced line directly into the balanced input and taking the 6db Gain hit... but what about the impedance mismatch? As long as your pre-amp has low impedance (600 ohm or so) outputs and your A/D has higher impedance inputs (10K or so), you will be OK. With these types of signals, you don't need to match impedances. Matching impedances is only necessary to maximize power transfer (speaker LC crossovers), or minimize signal reflections (RF frequencies or long digital signal runs). In the case of audio line level signals, you don't care about maximizing power transfer, and the low frequencies and short distances involved don't require you to minimize signal reflections. So try it and see (er, I mean, hear) what happens! Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Matt Daggett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:54 AM Subject: [PEDA] OT: Unbalanced line into Balanced Input * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] DE 99SE IN WIN 98 AND 2000
I have win2k + sp3 on my workstation. The server is WIN98 lately I keep getting these annoying dbase share error (there is no one else on Your SERVER is Win98 (faints in disbelief) That's the least capable server you could be using. No wonder you are having problems. Win98 is a severe security risk (open TCP/UDP ports, etc), so I hope you have it behind a firewall, or not connected in any way to the Internet. I admit I (still) use a Win98 server at home as a music server and printer server. It accumulates crud in memory (memory leaks) and has to be rebooted every week or so. It doesn't lock up or stop working, but it gets slow. It's OK because it's use for non-critical functions, but there's no way I'd put anything mission-critical on it. That machine is 5 years old now and still works great (white box PC are the best!). But someday when I have to perform surgery on it, it's getting Linux. Oh yeah, it's behind a firewall - no way I'd use without one. And I don't mean a software firewall, I mean a firewall box. Either upgrade that server to NT or W2k, or switch it over to Linux. Personally, I recommend the latter. I have a Linux server at work and it is rock stable. Sorry, I know this doesn't immediately help you. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Roger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:27 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] DE 99SE IN WIN 98 AND 2000 Speaking of win2k with servers. I have win2k + sp3 on my workstation. The server is WIN98 lately I keep getting these annoying dbase share error (there is no one else on the network) The odbc errors come in bunches. tech support just gives the stock do a clean install or update ODBC or whatever its called. That has been their solution for 12 years now - it never fixes the bugs, I just go away for a while. Anyhow I have a dual boot machine and it works ok under the win 98 boot. Everything else works reliably on WIN 2k, accept this SE99 - any ideas? roger * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Network issues
All our PC's are running w2k (including the server) and the network generally is very lightly loaded. Can I do anything to improve these delays? Switch your server to Linux ??? Just kidding (sort of)... How big is the file you are loading from the server? A file will always load faster from your own drive than a server's drive. For comparison purposes, I use a 1.2 GHz Celeron Red Hat 7.3 Linux server running Samba (that's the server software that *looks* like an NT server to other machines), and to load a 24MB Protel parts libary from the Linux box onto a Protel 99SE session on my W2K box (dual PIII 1 GHz) takes about 8-10 seconds. It sounds like your project file may be very big. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Peter Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 6:05 AM Subject: [PEDA] Network issues Hi, After reading a similar post on the DXP forum I wonder if any one can help me. I am currently using Protel 99SE (SP6) with all my data files stored on a server. When I try and open the current project it takes 2 minutes 27 seconds to open. If I copy the project to my local drive it takes less than 4 seconds to open. All our PC's are running w2k (including the server) and the network generally is very lightly loaded. Can I do anything to improve these delays? Regards, Peter Smith * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Seperate Systems - was Roxio, Nero, Virii and crashes
JaMi: The primary point of my original post was to raise awareness of peoples investment in their Protel Machine / Toolbox, so as to prevent problems by needlessly trying to multitask on that machine where certain tasks, such as burning a CD, can be done so easily elsewhere. There really is no reason to invite problems on your Protel Machine /Toolbox when you do not have to. In other news, BigMoCo announced today the existence of a flaw in the safety belt ignition interlock system on some of their 1998-2002 models. The flaw affects cars with a seating capacity of 5 persons. The rear seat middle safety belt interlock deactivates the ignition circuit when someone is buckled in. This prevents the car from starting. BigMoCo is not issuing a recall, but instead offers the following solutions: 1) Carry 4 or fewer persons in the car 2) Buy an old used car with 5-person seating, and use it only when transporting 5 people. For 4 or fewer persons, continue using your quality BigMoCo automobile. These solutions have been tested and are known to work. A BigMoCo company spokesperson said the flaw is not serious enough to warrant a recall. He apologized for the inconvenience, spoke about the high quality of their customer service, and reiterated their company policy Quality is Job Zero ;-) And my primary point is I shouldn't have to use a separate machine to work around these s/w problems. The s/w problems should just be fixed. Oh, and of my 5 boxes, only 2 have CD burners. The files I want to burn are on the W2K Protel box. What's up with the uppercase 'M' in your name? Should I start calling myself IvAn ? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] wierd blacklist message
Did anyone else get the message below? It looks as if that message was sent by me, but it wasn't. Someone is spoofing something. I sent no such message. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Seperate Systems - was Roxio, Nero, Virii and crashes The message sender's address or IP address was found in one or more of the following Anti-Spam real time black lists. Crystal Groups Own BanList Please contact your system administrator or ISP for further information on how to be removed from these lists. If you feel this message is in error, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] If Hotmail blocks your email too, or you don't hear from someone withing 24-48 hours, call your contact at Crystal Group. You can find the phone number for Crystal Group at www.crystalpc.com. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] wierd blacklist message
Brad: You didn't say if you had received the same message from the Protel list. It seems to me that it would have been sent to all members of the Protel EDA list. Unless the origination address was spoofed, in which case it would look to me like it came from the PEDA list, but in fact came to me from somewhere else, and you guys would not have gotten it. I don't see how my e-mail could have been compromised. My ISP blocks e-mail sending from nets other than their own subnet. With all this blacklisting and spamming, let's take bets when e-mail will finally become unusable. I bet it's when an e-mail has a less than 50% chance of getting there. At this rate, that's by year's end... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] wierd blacklist message Ivan, any chance that your email account has been compromised? If a spammer has compromised your account somehow and is using your account for spam, then you can find that you are getting blamed. Possibly it is as simple as someone just spoofing your email as the reply address for their spam, now you get the finger pointed at you. It is also possibly just a scam to confirm your email address if you respond. I would not respond to the hotmail email address, it is probably a source for obtaining email addresses for spammers. I would figure any legitimate blacklist would not be using hotmail for their email address. Checking out the website, they sell PC equipment. Maybe it is just a rouse to up their visitor count on their site. Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 6:42 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] wierd blacklist message Did anyone else get the message below? It looks as if that message was sent by me, but it wasn't. Someone is spoofing something. I sent no such message. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Seperate Systems - was Roxio, Nero, Virii and crashes The message sender's address or IP address was found in one or more of the following Anti-Spam real time black lists. Crystal Groups Own BanList Please contact your system administrator or ISP for further information on how to be removed from these lists. If you feel this message is in error, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] If Hotmail blocks your email too, or you don't hear from someone withing 24-48 hours, call your contact at Crystal Group. You can find the phone number for Crystal Group at www.crystalpc.com. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] wierd blacklist message
Have you insulted anyone today? No, I'm falling behind on my quota... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: John M. Cardone [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] wierd blacklist message * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] wierd blacklist message
Mark: I only got that wierd message once this morning. And I've posted several times to the PEDA list today. So it's probably a virus thing. But not on my end - I've scanned my machines for viruses. Didn't find any. So maybe someone else on this list has an infected machine? Some viruses will take e-mail addresses from your address book and forge fake From: headers, then spam everyone in the address book. It could be someone who has sent or received e-mail from the Crystal Group and the PEDA list. I know I have never sent/received e-mail from the Crystal Group. If you don't have antivirus s/w, you can use Symantec's free checker at http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/ Click on check for security risks. For Linux boxes, try RAV Antivirus at http://www.ravantivirus.com/index.php They have a 30-day free trial. Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in these companies, I'm just trying to solve a problem. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Mark Iams-McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] wierd blacklist message Hi Ivan, Typically many ISP's filter mail by means of a blacklist to prevent spamming. My understanding is that Crystal has a very strict list and will blacklist more people than most ISP's. Are you still getting the error message? Call the ISP's involved if you are. They are just trying to protect the network from going down. I think they would have the best answer to your situation. Good luck. Mark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Seperate Systems - was Roxio, Nero, Virii and crashes
JaMi: While using a separate PC for each application will certainly reduce conflicts, it should not be necessary. You see, there is this concept called multitasking - check it out! ;-) I burn CDs on my Protel workstation too. And I'm not talking about MP3 CDs. I burn CDs of our hardware drivers for our customers. So it's entirely work-related CD burning activity. That's just as important as running Protel. I already have 5 PCs (Linux server, linux client, W2K workstation, W95 miscellaneous, and a DOS/W95 hackbox) on/under/beside my desk anyway. No way I'm going to add yet another PC just to run one program which should get along with other programs anyway. I could afford to buy another PC. I just can't stand any more clutter. Behind my desk looks like an explosion in a cable factory. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 7:39 PM Subject: [PEDA] Seperate Systems - was Roxio, Nero, Virii and crashes Steve, I hope that the long thread of responses in the DXP forum helped you get your problem resolved with your system. Reading the posts gave me pause to think about a few things regarding my own computer systems, and I thought that I would share some of those thoughts here in the forums, which are not necessarily related to your problem or post, but related to the many problems and crashes that I myself have had in the past, and the many other similar problems and responses posted here in the forums by both I myself and others who have had problems with our systems and different combinations of software installed on them. The following are my conclusions that apply to me and what I need to keep in mind in keeping my own house in order. I thought that I would share them here in the various Protel forums simply to supply some food for thought for others who may be in situations similar to myself. Protel 99 SE had a List Price of $8,000.00. Protel DXP currently has a List Price of $8,000.00. Irrespective of whatever special package deals or upgrade offers anyone may have gotten, or which version of the software anyone may be using, the fact remains that Protel is an $8,000.00 software package. That very expensive software package was purchased for the purpose of making money, by way of making Printed Circuit Boards (or programming ASICs). Whether by direct consulting, or performing a job for an employer, the Protel software package is basically used as a source of income. Some of this income is secondary income, but most of it is primary income. The bottom line, plain and simple, is that Protel is an $8,000.00 software package that I rely on for my livelihood. The reliability of the Protel software package, and the related libraries (both those supplied with Protel and especially those that I have developed myself), and related databases, especially of schematics or PCB designs (whether past (completed projects or Boards), current (in process), or future (those that I have yet to do)), and related files, when all considered as a whole, especially when considered in terms of capabilities and requirements in terms of performing the task of earning that income, whether primary or secondary, represent far far more that a mere $8,000.00 investment in piece of software on a CD ROM and the License that comes with it. This is especially true when one considers the amount of actual time one either has invested in their own Protel Machine / Toolbox, or the amount of time that they stand to loose should anything happen to that Machine / Toolbox which would require its replacement or its repair. By Machine / Toolbox, I mean not only the software itself, but also all of the other things that have gone into having the ability to use Protel to produce the end product of income. One of the smaller components of that Protel Machine / Toolbox, is of course a computer system, which is needed in order to be able to use the Protel software package itself. Even the very best of computer systems available today, including the hardware, the operating system, and the monitor, will still come out to less than half of the original cost of the Protel software itself, in terms of price, at about $4,000.00. In reality, most people can put together an excellent system on which to run Protel for much less at around one eighth the of cost, or $1,000.00. Computers systems to do other tasks, whatever they may be, such as email, browsing the internet, playing games, burning a CD or listening to one, or even programming, can all be done on last years machine, with yesterdays operating system and yesterdays technology, on a separate machine which ranges in cost or value from $500.00 on down to nothing. The whole point is this. Why take a computer system which may
Re: [PEDA] Roxio, Nero, Virii and crashes OT
are transitioning to Linux in every way we can. Altium, where is that Linux version of Protel? I can't keep this dual-PIII going forever! When it craps out, it's not getting replaced by another Windows box... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 6:23 AM Subject: [PEDA] Roxio, Nero, Virii and crashes HELP!!! In attempting to uninstall DirectCD, I've gotten my system into a state where it won't boot! Sorry if I'm off-topic, but I'm desperate and these lists are the best resource I've found for help. Others may save themselves much grief by learning from my experience. I'm cross-posting to the DXP list as well. My recent queries on the web encouraged me to buy Ahead Nero to replace Roxio's DirectCD. Thus far, that advice still seems to have been good - Nero is far superior to DirectCD, and far more stable. I had them both installed and peacefully coexisting. On advice that I should not have two CD burner packages installed, and the realization that I'd never use DirectCD again, I uninstalled DirectCD. I've since learned that Roxio's DirectCD is in and of itself the worst virus infection I've ever seen. It won't uninstall cleanly, their tech support is no help, and now my system won't boot. When I boot into Windows 2000 Pro, it appears to boot normally. In searching the web I've found that many others have come to similar grief, but no solutions to my specific problem. First sign of trouble is that while my auto-start apps are still getting settled in, a box appears saying Preparing to install with no appname. Its cancel button does nothing. About ten seconds later, the box goes away - and then comes back. Total of about 6 times or so, and then the system does a normal shutdown and reboots Again, and again, and again. I've killed almost a full day on this so far, with no end in sight. Spelunking in the registry finds many hundreds of entries sprinkled all over the place, referring to Roxio, DirectCD, etc. I spent a couple hours deleting absolutely every registry entry which looked remotely related. This was only a crippleware version of DirectCD that could just barely write a data CD; any other operation took me automatically to Roxio's website to buy the full version. Thus I'm not only pretty ticked at Roxio, but also at Dell. Dell preinstalled this on the machine, and the sales pitch implied I was getting the full version. Thus I consider this to be bait-and-switch, plain and simple. So Dell is now on my blacklist too (it wouldn't have taken much after their fiasco with proprietary power supplies, but that's another whole story). I've tried unplugging the CD drive and rebooting, unplugging all the USB peripherals on the theory that something there is trying to install, etc., all to no avail. I've already run the Win2K Repair from the CD; no joy there either. So I'm getting ready to reinstall Win2K, and cringing at the thought of all the drivers etc. that I'll need to set up again. There is a slim chance that this might have been precipitated by a virus other than Roxio, because one of my clients had a particularly nasty virus infection last week. But I haven't downloaded any executables from them, and I'm well-guarded against other forms such as macros. And the problem showed up right after I ran Ahead's driver clean utility. My best guess at present is that Roxio left something around which now detects that the rest isn't installed, and it's trying to repair the installation. But that's only a guess. I can get to the Windows recovery console, and also to Safe mode. but haven't had any luck repairing things that way. Any and all tips gratefully accepted!! Steve Hendrix * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Through hole IPC recommendations
I am wondering why the need for the high temp solder? A specified requirement? Since gold solders quite easily I can't picture the need for the special solder. It could be the new lead-free solders. All of these I have heard of have higher melting points than lead-tin. Lead is THE best substance to use in solder. All others I have heard of have problems with embrittlement. I shudder to think of the equipment failures that will arise after boards built with lead-free solder have been in use for 2-3 years. What's worse is that since much of it is consumer electronics, most folks will just take it in stride and throw it away and buy a new one. The EU has a requirement for lead-free solder starting in 2005, I think. Some consumer electronics companies are already doing it. I guess we will have to get an exemption for industrial equipment, or stop selling to EU countries - we will not compromise the reliability of our products for any feel-good initiatives. Now if it can be shown that there are no long-term reliability problems with lead-free, we will consider it. Problem is, this is a tough thing to fight against, because these groups stand to benefit: 1) Electronics companies: they get to sell more stuff, because it doesn't last as long. They also get the PR benefit from appearing to look good to environmentalist concerns. 2) Solder manufacturers: they get to patent new types of solder and charge more $$$ for them 3) Gov't bureaucrats: they get to accept bribes, er, I mean, campaign contributions, from #2 to pass lead-free legislation, and they get votes from the environmentalists. 4) EU: they get to lock out competing products by erecting a non-tariff trade barrier to foreign goods, at least until foreign suppliers make the switch Ironically, the groups that take it in the shorts are: 1) Consumers: paying more for less reliable electronics 2) The environmentalists: landfills taking in more electronics refuse betrays their cause. Filling up the landfill with lead-free electronics - that doesn't sound too environmentally friendly to me. I'd rather use lead in my electronics and have them last longer, than throw out lead-free electronics every couple of years. I've got a TV from 1989 and stereo equipment from the early 80's that still work. They've got lead in them, but they aren't in the landfill... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Mixed PCB (imperial metric)
I'm newbie in Protel, and i need to make a new PCB with mixed components (SMD and convetional) with imperial metric units. Can anyone help me?? What is the best way to draw this? I hope you are not designing Mars planetary exploration equipment ;-) Better pick one or the other and stick with it throughout the design. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: RAD [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 8:45 AM Subject: [PEDA] Mixed PCB (imperial metric) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Mixed PCB (imperial metric)
I'm newbie in Protel, and i need to make a new PCB with mixed components (SMD and convetional) with imperial metric units. Can anyone help me?? What is the best way to draw this? I hope you are not designing Mars planetary exploration equipment ;-) Why not?? :-) Thanks a lot Ivan In case someone is not aware of what I referred to, here is a link to a news story about the Mars Climate Orbiter that was lost due to metric/english mishaps. http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/ Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] A Question About Netlist Compare and Partially Matched Nets. Protel 99SE SP6.
The synchronizer is fine on small boards. We have one backplane, a designer recently took 4 hours to load a netlist. Using the synchronizer would have taken a week. Yeow! I wonder if the netlist load and sync algorithms are one of those n^2 problems. You know, the ones where you double the complexity, the time to solve goes up by 4. I had some fairly large designs before that loaded the netlist in a few seconds (on a dual PIII 1GHz). If your design was more complex by a linear factor, then it would have been 3600x as complex as mine. Somehow I doubt you had 108,000 chips on one PCB ;-) So maybe you had 60x as many chips as my board (still 1800 chips!). I'd hate to do a clearance check on your board ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Mike Reagan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] A Question About Netlist Compare and Partially Matched Nets. Protel 99SE SP6. Ian, Time works against me.Some boards of which I have Protel schematics, I have found the synchronizer to take hours. As much as 4 hours to use the synchronizer or to reload a netlist on top of one.If you use my crazy method, (clear netlist) not only is it fool proof, but it the entire process can be over and done with in 5- 15 minutes on large designs. The synchronizer is fine on small boards. We have one backplane, a designer recently took 4 hours to load a netlist. Using the synchronizer would have taken a week. Mike Reagan EDSI Frederick MD - Original Message - From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] A Question About Netlist Compare and Partially Matched Nets. Protel 99SE SP6. On 07:38 PM 13/02/2003 -0500, Mike Reagan said: John You are welcomed...but I should practice what I preach. I have been using this method with 99SE SP6 and have had flawless designs. Ok until last week , we got a board back with power and gnd were not connected to the input connector.The original ECO was a minor change, I imported a netlist, and since I knew what the ECO was, made the quick changes. Ran DRCs and sent gerbers. The problem was.the footprint for the power connector had duplicate pin numbers. A second import of a netlist in Protel causes all of the pins to disconnect, at third import will cause only one of the pins to connect. Every subsequent import will cause differnet results . I already was aware of it but didnt see the connector. This will not show up as an error when you import the netlist either. Had I stuck with my fool proof method and not taken a shortcut because I made an assumption) I wouldnt have had mud in my face. Clear the netlist, import the netlist , connect copper, run drcs .100 percent of the time and you will never have a problem. So said the fool of the week only because I made an assumption. A solution to this issue, for some at least, is to use Update PCB (the synchronizer) rather than netlist load. I know, Mike, that you get netlists often rather than P99SE sch so this is not always a solution, but the synch deals with the duplicate pins correctly, I think. I don't use duplicate pins (as it I don't like the risks), but I think others have stated that the sycnh is OK but netlist load has the oscillatory connect/disconnect behavior. Ian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] The going price for P99SE on Ebay
Abdul: That was not nice of you to bid up the price if you didn't want it for yourself. You just made somebody pay more than he should have. Stunts like this are why I have never bought anything by e-bay. Last year I had my assistant (who is an e-bay junkie) bid on some test equipment items for me. At the last minute some bozo outbid us. So it was a big waste of time. Then I said, screw this, and I picked up the phone and ordered some new equipment which ended up being of equivalent quality and about the same price as Mr. bozo paid for the used stuff. BTW, $2500 is what I think a brand new full Protel suite should cost (from Protel), not $8000, or $9000, or whatever the heck it is now. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] The going price for P99SE on Ebay At 04:28 PM 1/8/2003, JaMi Smith wrote: For those that may have missed it, the going price for the P99SE at auction on ebay this morning was US $2,328.00. That's more like it! Ebay is not a great place to sell Protel licenses, not great for the seller, that it. Buyers aren't usually looking there I placed a bid on that license even though I'm short of cash (I bid $2025) simply because I couldn't stand to see it go for under $2,000. I'm trying to sell an extra 99SE license for $4500! (OBO). ($4500 is about 25% off of the new value, figuring $8000 less the $2000 DXP upgrade price; 25% discount is the number I've tried to maintain as a used license price. I've had discussions with Altium sales, they too would like to see that level, actually, of course, they would prefer higher :-) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] The going price for P99SE on Ebay
Abdul: More than he should have. What is that? I was not aware that there was any fixed standard for the resale price of Protel software There isn't. More than he should have in this context means the price was bid up by you because you thought it wasn't at fair value - not in any consideration of what the price should have been if the only folks bidding were ones that really wanted to buy it. It's your right to do this, and it's legal (if it's not part of a fraud scheme), but it's not nice. The buyer might have been able to buy it for a few hundred dollars less if you hadn't meddled. If I ever see you in person at a car lot, don't get angry at me if I walk up and offer to buy the car you are negotiating about for $1000 more! If you really want that car, my antics will just make it cost you more! If you are acting as a middleman or finder, I can understand tacking a markup or finder's fee onto any re-sale. But in the case of this auction, all you did was make it cost more to the buyer, without adding any value - he had already found the Protel item and was bidding on it, without your help. price. I bid low, not high. I just thought that below $2000 was not only a steal, it might have the effect of depressing the market, as other buyers discovered that such a low price was paid. They would then wait for someone else to auction their license on ebay, and they might wait forever. Maybe the market should be depressed to the point where it fits reality. Protel s/w is too expensive anyway, IMO. If someone has a real immediate need for the s/w, they can't wait forever, and will buy it from Protel at or near full price - like I did for the test equipment I needed. If not enough people buy to keep Altium afloat at that price, Altium will just have to adjust their pricing. It's called supply and demand. It's not called market manipulation. probably know nothing else about him. He might have paid too much, but the social harm of this is counterbalanced by the benefit to the seller, who Social harm? So now we are social engineers too? Hey, I dig this engineer stuff - one degree to rule them all! Oh wait, that's a law degree. Never mind... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] The going price for P99SE on Ebay At 12:16 PM 1/9/2003, Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: That was not nice of you to bid up the price if you didn't want it for yourself. You just made somebody pay more than he should have. More than he should have. What is that? I was not aware that there was any fixed standard for the resale price of Protel software I don't think it is true that my bid caused anyone to pay more than a fair price. I bid low, not high. I just thought that below $2000 was not only a steal, it might have the effect of depressing the market, as other buyers discovered that such a low price was paid. They would then wait for someone else to auction their license on ebay, and they might wait forever. There were several bidders after me, but it is true that, if I had not bid, they might have gone back and forth at a lower price. But I'd have been very happy to buy the license at the $2025 I bid. True, I'd be buying it for resale. Got a problem with that? I would only do this if I felt that the going price was way below market value, i.e., I could make, I'd expect, a profit reselling it. If you found yourself with a surplus license, I think you'd be happy to see higher resale prices! Stunts like this are why I have never bought anything by e-bay. I'd suggest rethinking the matter. Last year I had my assistant (who is an e-bay junkie) bid on some test equipment items for me. At the last minute some bozo outbid us. So it was a big waste of time. You were irritated that you were outbid, thus the bidder is a bozo. You probably know nothing else about him. He might have paid too much, but the social harm of this is counterbalanced by the benefit to the seller, who probably still did not recoup his or her cost (unless, perhaps, he or she was a reseller). And in this case he did not pay way too much, because: Then I said, screw this, and I picked up the phone and ordered some new equipment which ended up being of equivalent quality and about the same price as Mr. bozo paid for the used stuff. Yes, ebay prices are often too high, because of ignorant buyers. But they are also often too low because of a paucity of buyers for the item in question, which is a real risk when selling expensive software on ebay. Waste of time? Once one is set up to bid on ebay, it takes a minute to place a bid. You don't have to watch the bidding, which can really be a waste of time. If you know the value of a thing, bid what you are willing to pay and let ebay
Re: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers
Anand: There is no such thing as perfectly aligned. PCBs are usually made with a +/-0.005 in. tolerance on drill operations (hole drilling, etc.). You can ask board shops for tighter tolerances, but it will cost you more. For what you are trying to do, the standard +/-0.005 in. tolerance should be sufficient. The only difficulty I foresee with what you want to do is the actual board assembly (component stuffing) process. Large SMT parts on both sides is tricky - the one on the bottom will probably have to be hand placed and manually reflowed. Then, after reflowing, screws and nuts are installed. One other consideration: is there enough space between the connectors to actually put mating cables on them? Separating them by only a PCB thickness (0.062 in.) doesn't seem like enough room for the hood/shell of both cables. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Anand Kulkarni [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:17 AM Subject: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers Hi everybody, I have a question about the capability of PCB manufacturers. I have a surface mount SCSI connector with 68 pads . 050 inch x .100 inch Center - SCSI 3 Compatible - Shrouded Straight - Surface Mount Socket example : 2 identical connectors : _ | _| | o/ \o | | --- | - Connector 1 _ | _| | o/ \o | | --- | - Connector 2 Now this connector has got 2 holes , 1 on each end , apparently for screwing to the board. Now, I want to place these connectors on opposite sides of the board. i.e, one connector on the top surface and the other connector on the bottom surface ; and I want them be perfectly aligned to each other , as seen in the top view. further ,I want to screw them TOGETHER through the board. i.e, nuts on both the top and bottom surface and the thread passing through the vertically aligned holes. Again the holes have to be perfectly aligned. Also , the pads have to be prefectly aligned. Is this alignment something that I can expect the PCB manufacturer to easily achieve ? Please do reply with your suggestions, thanks very much, regards Anand Kulkarni * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers
OK, I missed the part in the original post that said straight, not right-angle. Nevermind... That's going to be a strange looking gizmo when the cables are connected... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Dwight [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers Ivan, are you figuring the connectors are right-angle? The original post indicates they are straight, so a cable on one side won't interfere with the cable on the other side. -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 8:33 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers snip One other consideration: is there enough space between the connectors to actually put mating cables on them? Separating them by only a PCB thickness (0.062 in.) doesn't seem like enough room for the hood/shell of both cables. - Original Message - From: Anand Kulkarni [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:17 AM Subject: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers Hi everybody, I have a question about the capability of PCB manufacturers. I have a surface mount SCSI connector with 68 pads . 050 inch x .100 inch Center - SCSI 3 Compatible - Shrouded Straight - Surface Mount Socket example : 2 identical connectors : _ | _| | o/ \o | | --- | - Connector 1 _ | _| | o/ \o | | --- | - Connector 2 Now this connector has got 2 holes , 1 on each end , apparently for screwing to the board. Now, I want to place these connectors on opposite sides of the board. i.e, one connector on the top surface and the other connector on the bottom surface ; and I want them be perfectly aligned to each other , as seen in the top view. further ,I want to screw them TOGETHER through the board. i.e, nuts on both the top and bottom surface and the thread passing through the vertically aligned holes. Again the holes have to be perfectly aligned. Also , the pads have to be prefectly aligned. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers
Anand: Try this experiment: Try to look through an open doorway without anyone being able to see part of your head. Can't do it, eh? Because your head extends beyond your eyes. That's like when your cat peeks at you with one eye beyond the sofa edge - she thinks you can't see her, but you can! And so it is with a cable and hood/shell. On most cables, the hood is larger than the connector pin area and shell. So the limiting factor is how big the hood is, not how close you can fit the connector. Also, you should make some provision for screwing in the cables so they don't fall out. Some users will want to screw in the cables, some won't. You wouldn't want someone to curse at or not buy your product because they couldn't screw in the cables, would you? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Anand Kulkarni [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers thanks for your reply .. But,I am not clear about the consideration that you mentioned regarding the hood/shell of the two cables and there not being enough space for both of them. I plan to screw the two connectors together on opposite sides of the board and then each connector will act as a socket for a SCSI cable ... the SCSI cable will NOT be screwed to the connector OR to the board. It will simply be inserted into the corresponding socket and left hanging ). I assumed this is alright ,because there is a very snug fit between this cable and the connector. I hope I've been able to explain well ... One more concern : I plan to have 16 such connector-cable pairs on my board ... do you anticipate any problems with this arrangement ? please do reply , thanks very much best regards Anand Kulkarni -- On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:32:43 Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: Anand: There is no such thing as perfectly aligned. PCBs are usually made with a +/-0.005 in. tolerance on drill operations (hole drilling, etc.). You can ask board shops for tighter tolerances, but it will cost you more. For what you are trying to do, the standard +/-0.005 in. tolerance should be sufficient. The only difficulty I foresee with what you want to do is the actual board assembly (component stuffing) process. Large SMT parts on both sides is tricky - the one on the bottom will probably have to be hand placed and manually reflowed. Then, after reflowing, screws and nuts are installed. One other consideration: is there enough space between the connectors to actually put mating cables on them? Separating them by only a PCB thickness (0.062 in.) doesn't seem like enough room for the hood/shell of both cables. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Anand Kulkarni [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:17 AM Subject: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers Hi everybody, I have a question about the capability of PCB manufacturers. I have a surface mount SCSI connector with 68 pads . 050 inch x .100 inch Center - SCSI 3 Compatible - Shrouded Straight - Surface Mount Socket example : 2 identical connectors : _ | _| | o/ \o | | --- | - Connector 1 _ | _| | o/ \o | | --- | - Connector 2 Now this connector has got 2 holes , 1 on each end , apparently for screwing to the board. Now, I want to place these connectors on opposite sides of the board. i.e, one connector on the top surface and the other connector on the bottom surface ; and I want them be perfectly aligned to each other , as seen in the top view. further ,I want to screw them TOGETHER through the board. i.e, nuts on both the top and bottom surface and the thread passing through the vertically aligned holes. Again the holes have to be perfectly aligned. Also , the pads have to be prefectly aligned. Is this alignment something that I can expect the PCB manufacturer to easily achieve ? Please do reply with your suggestions, thanks very much, regards Anand Kulkarni * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com
Re: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers
Warning - Anecdote ahead, delete if you don't want to read it. Of course, I've been known to invent strange looking gizmos too. Probably the wierdest one was PIBIT - Pump Interface Board Integrated Tester. This was not a commercial product, but an in-house tester at a place I used to work at in the late 80's before I started Bagotronix. I was a junior engineer at Anonymous Corp. (not junior in talent, just in rank ;-) I would solve the problems that were beneath the seniors' status to address. Frequently the service dept. folks would complain that they had no good way to test something we engineers designed. Every now and then I would get tired of their complaining and design and build a gizmo that solved their problems. No budget of course. Couldn't req any parts for these gizmos, because the military procurement rules made it too expensive to procure anything that couldn't be billed to a specific contract. So I built PIBIT out of parts found in the company junk pile. An aluminum project box, approximately an 8 inch cube shape. Glued on top, 2 night lights (for testing each half of the triac). Two plastic fiber optics sticking out of the side, looking like whiskers (for testing the plastic fiber optic xcvr). Two chrome pushbutton switches salvaged from old 70's era TVs. Inside, miscellanous components, a DC wall wart for a power supply. Everyone laughed at it when I showed it to them and told them the cutesy name I made up for it. When I explained what it did, the service dept. folks were delighted they finally had an easy way to test the boards. The seniors' reaction was mixed: some thought it was way cool, others were disinterested and thought I was just wasting company time building goofy looking boxes (we design system X, and he gets paid to do that?) Happy holidays to you all! Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] question about connectors and PCB manufacturers -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OK, I missed the part in the original post that said straight, not right-angle. Nevermind... That's going to be a strange looking gizmo when the cables are connected... Not when the technician using it thinks to him/herself, All the LEDs lit... That cable tested OK. On to the next... Or when some other technician or engineer says Damn...I !_THOUGHT_! there was something funny going on. Glad I have this diagnostic pass-thru gizmo thingy from Whoozamacallitz industries to assist me in debugging yet another of those all-too-common SCSI problems that have all but killed the standard in favor of more reliable connection schemes like USB and Firewire...Thank god for my Whoozamacallitz 709A (markII) SCSI Passthru Tester Just a guess, mind you... aj * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[PEDA] Altium offers
Hello, all: I just got a brochure from Altium with all their *limited time only* new and upgrade offers. I see that they are offering (until Dec. 31, 2002): 1) new Protel DXP for $7995 2) new Protel 99SE with free upgrade to DXP as soon as you change your OS from Win98/NT to 2000/XP, for $7995 3) new Protel DXP '2 for 1' for $7995 to users of full Protel suite or eligible competing design systems 4) PCAD 2002 for $9995 But they fail to say what the *regular* price is. So I have no idea of how much I would be saving by buying before Jan. 1. Anyone know what the regular price for these is supposed to be? Why is PCAD higher? Better yet, why is it still around? I thought the whole purpose of consolidation was to reduce costs by streamlining product lines. What can PCAD do that Protel cannot? And vice versa? They are also offering what seems like a better deal, Protel 99 XTRA, which is just 99SE SCH, PCB, and the autorouter, for $4995. Now that I think about, that's what full Protel used to cost! nVisage DXP schematic capture, Spice sim, VHDL sim and synth. Guess which ONE of these features folks will buy it for? $2995 is way too much IMO for that ONE feature. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] P99SE strikes again on a US vacation long weekend holiday.
I can't believe the consistency that these issues show up when support is shut-down for a US holiday. So far 3 times this year I find myself unable to call tech support because of a US holiday. I think that is 3 for 3 as far as the unique (not taken in Canada as well) US holidays go. 3 for 3? Hmmm, there don't seem to be any bugs in Protel's calendar-based bug generation feature ;-) Obvious workaround: don't work on Protel during holidays. But, I am being a hypocrit, since I am working on Protel today (Friday). I'll see if it throws me a bug today. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum List Server (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 5:09 PM Subject: [PEDA] P99SE strikes again on a US vacation long weekend holiday. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] P99SE strikes again on a US vacation long weekend holi day.
Ivan, don't eat too much of that Turkey, you'll drool in your keyboard when you fall asleep with your head on the keyboard. I'm not worried, the PC keyboard is 5V only, no hazardous voltages there. But I could wake up with an awful bitter taste on my tongue (recalling the times of testing a 9V battery with my tongue) ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] P99SE strikes again on a US vacation long weekend holi day. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] virus WAS: What else is under the hood
were generally flawless.The reason I did this reinstall is because I had virus and after spending some time hunting it down, it was quicker for me to reformat my drive, then re load software . Mike: 1) What virus did your PC get? 2) What were the symptoms? 3) How did you get it? Just curious. I want to know if it's something to watch out for. If it's the latest gaping security hole in IE (trojan signed ActiveX controls), then I recommend you switch to some other browser, such as Mozilla. I started using Mozilla about 4 months ago and it rocks, I haven't used IE since. Mozilla doesn't do ActiveX, so it is not at risk. I still haven't switched e-mail from OE to Mozilla yet. I tried, but there is a bug in the e-mail import that can't seem to handle 1000's of messages without crashing. I have heard others advocate Eudora for e-mail, but I also heard that Eudora still uses IE to render HTML e-mail (evil!), so the IE security risk would still remain. Other Mozilla advantages: tabbed browsing, pop-up ad blocker. Great features! How did computers get so unsecure? It seems like the software advances of the last decade were all about making computers less secure! What's next, unsecure hardware? I can see it now: Announcing LawnPC, the first PC that doesn't clutter your house! You can just leave it in the yard. Solar powered see-through case, wireless networking, no messy cables! And forget passwords - you don't need them with LawnPC! No installation required - weighs only 30 lbs., just place it in a wide open sunny spot in your front yard and you're done! Available in these bright showy colors: orange, yellow, red, green, purple, blue. Sorry for OT, but this is crucial. I don't want to have to re-format and re-install Protel either! Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] support after the sale
There is also 'new user' support costs with hardware. Look at any VCR and try to tell me people understand how to program them. If I sell a used VCR to someone on ebay (without a manual) the first they they could do is potentially call the company and start asking questions how to use it. And THAT is a product that has zero margin for support. Most consumers know better than to call the company for support ;-) They know they will be wasting their time and racking up big long distance charges while navigating Byzantine voice menus and waiting in long phone queues to talk to a clueless supportdroid who reads from a script. Said company could save support costs by posting VCR operating manuals and FAQs on their website, even for old models. OK, Altium, for you that means old versions. Keep support for old versions on your website, and your support costs will be minimal. Sidebar: I never call these companies unless I have a product that failed in warranty and need to make a claim. This happened with a Linksys Cable/DSL Router last week. I called them, got connected to a supportdroid who was probably working the late shift in India. I told him the unit's red Diag light was on and would never go off. He then asked me what operating system I was using! DHH! I played his little script game until finally he told me to go to the website and fill out a form to get a RMA to send the whole thing back. I decided to do a little more investigation (I noticed the red light was awfully dim). Using a scope, I tested the wall wart under no load, and it had a 5V output. Then I got a 5 ohm, 10 W resistor and loaded it down, it went down to a very noisy 2V. Aha! Bad power supply! I grabbed another wall wart with similar ratings, plugged it in and the unit came up and started working. So I will be claiming a new wall wart, instead of complete new unit. With few exceptions, in today's world, YOU are your own tech support. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fw: 2 of 2 [protel-users-resale] Protel 99se for sale? I'm saying this lightheartedly, but there is truth to it: There is also 'new user' support costs with hardware. Look at any VCR and try to tell me people understand how to program them. If I sell a used VCR to someone on ebay (without a manual) the first they they could do is potentially call the company and start asking questions how to use it. And THAT is a product that has zero margin for support. The EDA industry is a joke at times with the policies in place. The Protel policies that have been in place are a welcome relief to the (realistically) infrequent occurance of 'used' license sales. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fw: 2 of 2 [protel-users-resale] Protel 99se for sale?
Just remember that not everything that is written in a EULA is actually true or legally enforceable. Much of EULA text is really just throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks. For it is written: Not all that is written is wisdom. ;-) A EULA is not a contract. A contract is something that is negotiated, and signed by both parties. You didn't negotiate anything in a shrink-wrapped software EULA, and you didn't sign it. Clicking on OK is not signing. I would think the doctrine of first sale should apply to software licenses, even if Altium says it doesn't. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fw: 2 of 2 [protel-users-resale] Protel 99se for sale? Abd ul-Rahman, your comments are quite valid. However Altium is already refusing the transfer of licenses on Accel products. I know this because I tried to obtain permission to sell 3 Accel licenses recently. How long do you think that separate policies will be maintained? Therefore, caveat emptor! Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Antivirus Software Memory Issues
Norton has had more than its fair share of problems in the windows environment (especially W98/ME) with Access Violations crashes attributed to it (all in MS KB), not a good record. It is also not reviewed well by a lot of independent sources. But I know many people who are happy with it. YAA (Yet Another Anecdote): my stepmom has lots of problems with crashes on W2K and Autocad 2002 and Norton Anti-Virus. She was asking me why her brand new dual Xeon system keeps crashing. I asked her what software she runs on it and when she said NAV, I said that could be her problem. An AV program has to intercept OS file reads and writes, so it is very intrusive software. If the system is already taxed by heavyweight apps, the slightest bug in an AV program could cause an unrecoverable crash. If the apps have bad memory leaks (like I think Autocad 2002 has), this could make AV crashes even more likely. I don't use AV software for these reasons: 1) I am careful about what I download (no games or non-essential programs) 2) I don't accept certain types of attachments from people I don't know personally, or casual (non-knowledgeable) computer users. Forbidden file types are: EXE, COM, BAT, VBS, VCF, DOC, XLW, XLS, PPT, DDB, MDB, and anything else I suspect. If I get an attachment of this type, I immediately delete it without opening it, and request the sender to re-send it in a more secure format (TXT, RTF, PDF, etc.) 3) AV software is a nuisance when you are writing a program and developing EXEs. Every time your compiler tries to create an EXE, the AV pops up and asks you if it's a virus. 4) AV software must be maintained with $$. It's a crazy train you can never get off of. 5) Ever wonder who writes all those viruses? Could it be the AV companies? Why isn't there some kind of DOJ investigation into this? This wouldn't be the first occurrence of the business model of creating a problem just to sell the solution. 6) AV software can cause system crashes which are usually unrecoverable. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Antivirus Software Memory Issues
downloads even with DSL, and install the CD ROM drive, with long defrags in between each major group of software (to keep everything clean and packed up nice), and then finally Protel software (99SE w sp6, camtastic, and DXP). While we're on the subject, I don't bother with defrag. It is mostly a waste of time and puts your data at risk while the defragging operation is in process. I know some people who have their PCs set up to automatically defrag each time they boot up. I guess they don't care for quick booting! You should use a UPS, and make sure it's battery is good, and it's not overloaded. Make sure your PC's power cannot fail during defragging... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:ForumAdministrator;TechServInc.com * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Antivirus Software Memory Issues
I said earlier in the same email But remember, it is a safety cushion, not a cure/solution. If you had read this, in the context it was intended you could have saved a lot of typing. John, I didn't miss your statement. It's just that I think AV software is not even a good safety cushion (air bag?), it's more like a faulty air bag - when you are driving down the road, and a pebble hits the bumper, the air bag deploys, and you crash. Except it's even worse than that - it's like an air bag that deploys when you eject the CD from your CD player. Or maybe when you insert the CD, if it's from some boy band... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] The othe half of DXP?
Still, $2995 is *WAY TOO MUCH* for a schematic package. Try $495, that's what DOS Orcad used to cost in the 80's. Don't give me that tired old inflation argument - if inflation was a factor, why does hardware (real physical stuff) cost less than ever and software (real physical stuff == $0.20 for the CD) prices are heading toward the stratosphere? If you guys know any laid-off software engineers, tell them to get busy and write a low-cost compatible-to-Protel schematic package and if they charged just a little for it, they could make a business from it, or at least feed their families until they get another job. Oh, and tell them to make both Windows and Linux versions. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] The othe half of DXP? I could be wrong, but after viewing the listed website link, I thought the announcement was referring to a new product that includes only the schematic portion of the current DXP. Although nVisage is a bit more than just the schematic, it does not include any PCB tools at $2,995.00. I will have to go and read it again to be sure, but there is also a demo version available that would confirm or deny this. If this is the case, I don't think a substantial amount of resources would be needed at all since they only have to delete the PCB tools from the current DXP product to create nVisage. I think this a great alternative to some companies that have several circuit designers and only a couple of layout people, therefore not requiring a full license in areas where it will never be utilized. Rob Young - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:15 PM Subject: [PEDA] The othe half of DXP? OK guys and gals, by now many of you have received the announcement of Altiums new product: nVisage, which can be seen at: http://www.nvisage.com/ They call it nVisage DXP, and at first glance it appears to be a schematic capture package and simulator to front-end Altiums other products. Now you know where the other half of DXP is. Now you know where your ATS money went. You have complained for years about the garbage that was bundled into Protel Client 99 SE with PCB, and now you can see the results of your complaints. If you have the bucks, you can pay for it too. The press release: http://www.nvisage.com/news.htm And some details: http://www.nvisage.com/product/index.html So now all of you guys and gals who have been beta testing the released version of DXP know where all of your input and requests and complaints have gone. Its gone into a new product, which they will gladly sell you a copy of, for a price. I wonder if it comes with ATS. Urrrgh! Actually, the real question is: Has Altium really been listening all this time, and just packaged together all of the fixes and features that have been requested into a separate product to sell us, as opposed to fixing the original product, P99SE (which of course we already paid for), or its replacement DXP, or have they just gone out and bought something else from someone else, which really doesn't fit anywhere, which they will now try and integrate with other products, somewhat like the way they attempted to integrate a nonfunctional Schematic package with PCB in Client. Is this somehow related to PCAD? Is this just some other product that just has been purchased and repackaged in Altium Wrappings. Assuming that Altium actually did have a hand in its' development, how do you DXP Forum supporters feel now? Ripped Off? Betrayed? Used? Intellectually Raped? Will you now be abandoned, and told to buy the new product? Isn't it just a little odd that it shares the name DXP, as if it really is the other half of the new DXP product. Oh well, should we really expect anything less. Guess we really just have to wait and see what it really is and how Altium decides to handle it. Start saving your money, because Altium wants it, and they are gonna try and get it one way or another. Next thing you know they are going to come out with an Autorouter that will handle Differential Controlled Impedance Transmission Lines. Never mind the fact that the feature is missing from their current new state of the art Situs Autorouter product that they just released. Will they call that one dRoute DXP? Once again, Urrrgh! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: *
Re: [PEDA] 99SE, a DRC trap or just a dumb user?
my grandmother always said i should be a garbage man, it might have been easier! A garbage man has more job security than an engineer, it seems... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:ForumAdministrator;TechServInc.com * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Is forum traffic down?
Yeah, message traffic has been slow for me too. Could be attributable to a lot of things, but mass migration to DXP is probably not one of them. Possiblities: 1) List server problems (probably not) 2) List censorship (maybe rants and off-topics from folks like me are being filtered out?) 3) Everyone's doing something else besides PCB design right now. 4) Economy is in the toilet, some have lost their jobs or don't have contract work right now. 5) Holiday mindset setting in, folks have other things on their minds 6) Everyone's over on the off-topic list flaming each other about guns, sports, Windows vs. Linux, Delphi vs. [insert favorite bloatware rapid app development suite], mouse and KLUNK bugs ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Linden Doyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: PEDA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 4:51 PM Subject: [PEDA] Is forum traffic down? Hi all, I've been getting very little traffic from the forum in the past week. Is it just my system or has everybody gone to the DXP forum? Messages are at the 3 or 4 a day level where previously 20 per day would not be uncommon. Thanks Linden Doyle Product Development Engineer Zener Electric Pty Ltd. Ph: +61 2 9795 3600 Fax: +61 2 9795 3611 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:ldoyle;zener.net * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:ForumAdministrator;TechServInc.com * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] SDK and Delphi Questions
Has the world come to an end? Did I miss the meltdown? Well, you know computers - they are always causing problems ;-) The same week that everything is put under computer control and there are no humans in the control loop and no off switch, is the week the world will come to an end. Sounds like SkyNet in the Terminator movies... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] SDK and Delphi Questions Earth to PEDA! Earth to PEDA! Either I am lost in space, which is quite possible, or the PEDA List Server is. I sent the following post to the PEDA Forum, and was supprised to not get any replies. Then I noticed that the list seems to have slown down to a crawl, with only a very few posts showing up, and I thought my ISP must have lost all of my mail again (which they do on a regular basis), so I logged onto Yahoo! Groups and checked the PEDA Archive, and lo and behold, it only shows postings up to October 17th. Has the world come to an end? Did I miss the meltdown? Anyway, I am reposting this in hope that I can get some responses. Thanks, JaMi - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:02 AM Subject: [PEDA] SDK and Delphi Questions So now that I am actually seriously thinking about tinkering aroud with the Protel 99 SE SDK, I guess it is time go out and buy some version of Borland Delphi, which I understand is necessary to use the SDK. What is Borland Delphi? I asked one person and they told me it was kind of like Visual Basic. I am totally clueless on this one (and a few other things), so any help in attempting to get started here would be greatly appreciated. OK, so I do a search on Borland Delphi on the net, and I come up with at many different versions and with prices all over the map: Delphi 7 Studio Professional Upgrade - $289 Delphi 7 Studio Professional Academic - $96 Delphi 7 Studio Enterprise Upgrade - $1569 Delphi 7 Studio Enterprise New User - $2700 Delphi Studio Professional 7 Full Product - $893 Delphi 7 Personal Full Product - $87 Delphi Studio 7 Academic - $389 Needless to say, I don't want to buy more than I need, and at the same time I certainly don't want to go out and buy something that is not going to do the job. I even have a question in my mind as to whether or not the SDK modules might be designed for and work better with an older version of the product, as I have run into this sort of thing before. Should I be looking for version 5 on Ebay or something? On the other hand, does anyone have any idea what I will need for the DXP SDK if and when it ever shows up? According to Murphy's Law it will probably be different. Thanks, JaMi Smith * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:ForumAdministrator;TechServInc.com * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[PEDA] Open Topic Forum woes
Hello, all: I have been trying to join the Open Topic Forum for two days now, with no success. I fill in the web form and submit it, but nothing happens. Then I get an e-mail from the DOLIST server with help info in it. Of course, the help info assumes I am doing something wrong or don't know what I am doing, which is not the case. Anyone else having problems with it? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:ForumAdministrator;TechServInc.com * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] 99SE Migration
I will sleep with the devil that I largely know and I know how to deal with most of it's temperamental fits. So Protel 99SE is a succubus...who'da thunk it? ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] 99SE Migration Fred, I hear you 100%. From my view the issue is simple, DXP is blatantly unfinished, bug ridden and not what we as users wanted. After more than 3 years of development if DXP is the height of Altiums performance then they are in deep kaka. If DXP had come out as as a usable tool (sans missing modules/parts) I might have had some minimal confidence in switching to it within a year, that idea is history now. I almost replied to Phil's email with a simple Not on your life! reply. I will continue to use P99SE for at least the next several years or until I am forced by hardware/OS to search out the best tool at that time. Who wants to migrate to complicated unfinished crap? Doesn't Altium realize that we use this software day in and day out to earn a living, that living isn't paid for by being their beta testers or product development resource, it is paid for by getting product out the door smoothly and reliably. I will sleep with the devil that I largely know and I know how to deal with most of it's temperamental fits. As for Altium listening to it's customer base, they should. It seems to me that they have isolated themselves for the past several years and ignored the customer base. If they don't do some more listening and quickly they will go the way of the other arrogant, self-righteous, can't do wrong, companies of the last 2 years. Nobody is absolutely tied to their product and there are other choices out there (some of which 'seem' no better but they are out there). Sincerely, Brad Velander. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:ForumAdministrator;TechServInc.com * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Top Notch Talent for Troubleshooting.
BTW - what is baseball? The only bat we know down here on top of the world is a cricket bat. I used the term baseball bat so you wouldn't think I meant the flying rodent type of bat. Baseball is a sport that used to be popular here in the U.S. Basically, you (the batter), hit a hard ball (about 9 cm in diameter) with a wooden or aluminum bat (like a thick club). Baseball bats are also sometimes used as weapons, if you don't have a gun handy (yes, in the U.S. you can still own guns, thank God!). Baseball has been in decline for a long time because of the big business of the sport. Players want ever more money and go on strike if they don't get it, owners want stadiums built for free by the taxpayers, etc. They don't love the game, they love only the money. Phooey on all of them. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Top Notch Talent for Troubleshooting. On 06:36 PM 16/10/2002 -0400, Bagotronix Tech Support said: Its a tough place so we look for REAL skills, ya know, kangaroo culling, crocodile bating, Do you mean baiting, as in setting out bait for them? Or batting, as in clubbing them with a baseball bat? The former sounds dangerous, the latter insane... Ivan, No bating is correct - it is a little game we play in our lunch hour in many workplaces - you all get into the creek and flap about a bit. Last one out when the croc approaches is the winner. How do you think Thorpie learnt to swim so fast. Do shark bating as well at the beach as well - when the shark alarm goes off at the beach, you try to be the last one out. Boss bating is another ripper. BTW - what is baseball? The only bat we know down here on top of the world is a cricket bat. Hooroo, cobbers, Ian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:ForumAdministrator;TechServInc.com * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Top Notch Talent for Troubleshooting.
Baseball bats are also sometimes used as weapons, if you don't have a gun handy (yes, in the U.S. you can still own guns, thank God!). Ivan, I am sure the people especially in the Washington area are very pleased about this fact at the moment. I don't know if it's still the case, but not long ago it was illegal to own a gun in the Washington DC area. This is in spite of the fact that the Bill of Rights enumerates the right to keep and bear arms. And during that time, the Washington DC murder and crime rate was among the worst in the U.S. If gun ownership is still illegal in the Washington area, that didn't stop the sniper, did it? Criminals will always have guns. Criminals don't worry about whether or not they are breaking a particular gun control law, or any law for that matter. That's why they are called criminals. ;-) Private ownership of guns has a certain deterrence factor. If a criminal thinks you might have a gun, he will be less likely to commit an act of violence against you. If you have a gun, and the criminal is crazy enough to attack you anyway, you can shoot him. Then he will be dead, commit no more acts of violence, and justice will have been better served than by any court system and prison sentence. That said, before you start a Protel session, put away your guns... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 3:37 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Top Notch Talent for Troubleshooting. Baseball bats are also sometimes used as weapons, if you don't have a gun handy (yes, in the U.S. you can still own guns, thank God!). Ivan, I am sure the people especially in the Washington area are very pleased about this fact at the moment. Regards, Gisbert * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:ForumAdministrator;TechServInc.com * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT: Troubleshooting.
An intelligent civilized human would try and understand why criminals are criminals and fix that problem. Alfonso: You can see my cranium on display at the Smithsonian Museum of Anthropology in the Neanderthal section. In spite of my primitive lineage, I walk upright, know how to make fire (by pushing the light button on my gas grill), make tools, speak a primitive language known as geek (80% of the words are acronyms), and am even capable of designing electronic circuits that actually work! ;-) Your analogy about the fuse is faulty. People are not electronic components. If people were electronic components, here is how crime would transpire: 1) A component shorts out (i.e. a transistor). The transistor is now a criminal. If he is a small-time criminal, he is in a SOT-23 case. If he is a big-time criminal, he is in a TO-220 or TO-3 case. 2) The criminal transistor moves around to other components on the board, killing them and stealing their color bands, enamel, or epoxy encapsulation. That's like stealing the shirt off a person's back. 3) The criminal transistor is chased around the PCB by red and blue flashing LEDs and piezo buzzers. If the transistor comes to the end of a PCB trace, he jumps over to an adjacent one and the pursuit continues. Occasionaly, the transistor jumps to another PCB, which is analogous to escaping the country. 4) Once the criminal transistor is caught, he is put into protective custody (anti-static foam) until a trial begins. 5) The trial is presided over by a microprocessor as judge. The jury consists of various components of all types, but most are low-quality rejects, because the defense bins the jurors and tosses out the high-quality ones. 6) The prosection is a dual comparator configured as window comparator, to show how the accused actions are outside the range of what is legally acceptable. 7) The defense is random noise generator followed by a high gain stage, which attempts to drive the jurors into saturation with random noise. 8) The jury suffers latch-up, and cannot arrive at a guilty verdict. Sometimes, the microprocessor judge may obtain some operating current through the input protection diodes on his I/O pin that interfaces with the defense. This is known as a bribe. Unfortunately, the watchdog does not reset the judge, because the watchdog was not enabled. 9) Unable to be convicted, the criminal transistor is freed. Some time later, he strikes again and the cycle repeats. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Alfonso Baz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Top Notch Talent for Troubleshooting. I didn't join this forum to hear some dumb ass yank rave on about guns!! The wild west is well and truly over cowboy... Jeez any wonder bush is turning the world upside down, with citizens and attitudes like this we'll never have a peaceful worldwide community. An intelligent civilized human would try and understand why criminals are criminals and fix that problem. If a 2A fuse blows you don't stick a 10A fuse in to fix the problem, you find what's causing the excess load and fix that!! - Original Message - From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 12:09 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Top Notch Talent for Troubleshooting. Baseball bats are also sometimes used as weapons, if you don't have a gun handy (yes, in the U.S. you can still own guns, thank God!). Ivan, I am sure the people especially in the Washington area are very pleased about this fact at the moment. I don't know if it's still the case, but not long ago it was illegal to own a gun in the Washington DC area. This is in spite of the fact that the Bill of Rights enumerates the right to keep and bear arms. And during that time, the Washington DC murder and crime rate was among the worst in the U.S. If gun ownership is still illegal in the Washington area, that didn't stop the sniper, did it? Criminals will always have guns. Criminals don't worry about whether or not they are breaking a particular gun control law, or any law for that matter. That's why they are called criminals. ;-) Private ownership of guns has a certain deterrence factor. If a criminal thinks you might have a gun, he will be less likely to commit an act of violence against you. If you have a gun, and the criminal is crazy enough to attack you anyway, you can shoot him. Then he will be dead, commit no more acts of violence, and justice will have been better served than by any court system and prison sentence. That said, before you start a Protel session, put away your guns... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
We have an external contractor that uses a much less spec machine and 256meg ram, they have a policy of formatting the HD and re-installing each time Protel crashes. (Personally, I think that's a bit extreme, read on...) Wow! Extreme indeed. Do they actually manage to get any real *work* done between the lengthy format/install process? Sounds like an inability or unwillingness to find the real cause of the problem. The only time I have re-installed W2K is when I had a networking problem a few months ago. It turned out to be an ethernet switch/router that had gone bad (on 2 of the 8 ports only!). People, if you have such bad problems, it could be a h/w fault. I cannot stress enough the importance of having solid, reliable h/w. Cheap PCs or PC components, if they cause problems, should be thrown in the garbage. That includes any new PCs (even name brands, Cq comes to mind) that are made from cheap components. No OS or app can run well on flaky h/w. People frequently ask me what to buy. I tell them to buy from the place I buy my computers - a local PC shop/ISP (white box builder) that also builds and maintains Linux business servers. Since Linux has such long uptime (few crashes), the h/w must be top-notch. They won't be as cheap as Dell, Gateway, HP, etc., but will be standard, non-proprietary, and very reliable. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT: DIY: autorouter
Bevan: Not to discourage you, but I think some of the best minds in the industry have been working on autorouters for 20 years and we have 'what we have.' If you can single-handedly come out with an autorouter that Phooey on that. Bevan, I encourage you in your autorouter development quest. PCB design has changed a lot in the last 20 years. Maybe some of the traditional algorithms don't work so well as they once did. Maybe you can discover something new. Maybe a simple algorithm will work better. Given the huge speed increases in modern PCs, maybe it's like a chess problem - you can consider more moves (routes) ahead if you have more computing power. Lots of tech advances have occurred because someone said I think I can do it better than these folks who have been doing it for 20 years... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT: DIY: autorouter Not to discourage you, but I think some of the best minds in the industry have been working on autorouters for 20 years and we have 'what we have.' If you can single-handedly come out with an autorouter that performs better than what's out there, you will certainly become famous / rich / etc. Someone will scoop your code up and integrate it, but for some funny reason, I just don't see that occuring. -Original Message- From: Bevan Weiss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:35 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] OT: DIY: autorouter Hi guys, I've been doing some research on the kinds of things to improve the autorouter (as per the desire to create my own). I've come up with some stuff that I'd like to bounce off ya's. Using a path-finding algorithm which assigns weights to various directions to travel (ie assuming that only 45deg angles are allowed, does anyone have a reason this isn't valid??) The default weighting would be to head towards the target pin (closest of the set), however if a large obstacle (ie dense gathering of wires) exists in the default path, then the algorithm would start to look at ways around the blockage, ie either using a via in which case you just perform the same operations on a different layer, or by going around the blockage. Weightings would be assigned to either of these (based on a static disadvantage for a via), if the side-track distance exceeds the disadvantage for the via however, then the via would be generated. The algorithm would take a single step forward (ie a single node point) for each connection pair, and then loop around and do the connection pairs again. I imagine that this would allow for better compromises to be made however other opinions on this are welcome. Just an update, Thanks for your time, Bevan Weiss * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Fan out Vias
The Protel AR is good for more than small TH PCBs. I have used it on SMT multilayer boards with no problems (but some annoyances!). It doesn't crash on me, but it will do stupid things (multiple routes from a pad to a ground plane, for example). If you have 1024 channels of identical ciruitry, you are probably better off hand-routing 1 channel and copying it 1023 times. Then manually route to the connectors. Don't give it to the AR, it will come up with 1024 different ways to route the same circuit! Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Jun Gong [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Fan out Vias You are right. I never use autorouter. even for small board. You can not rely on it to do whole job or complex job. I have a large board, contains 1024 SO-8 chips, 256 capacitors, and connectors for 1024 input signal, 1024 output signals. When I firstly used protel 99se to auto-route it, Protel 99se quitted the job after 1 hour without doing any modification on it. When I used ProtelDXP trial version, DXP worked very hard, it even exhausted my 600M virtual memory , forced Win2K to enlarge its virtual memory. But after 67 hours 53 minuts, DXP also looked dead, and its last message was finished 2172 connections of 3490 total connections. I think Protel router can hand small through-hole PCB. Don't try it on big board, or board with many SMD parts. With proper rules and careful placement, you can let it do simple jobs, such as fan-out, memory routing. Jun * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] problems loading in DDB's after machine upgrade? then read this !!!!!!!
This machine was a victim of M$ OS BS Change a Motherboard so I can use a new CPU and M$ thinks it is a new install even though the Network card and HDD are the same (AGGG) so it was time to start from scratch (and as I was I put a new 40Gb 7200 RPM drive in as I now HAD to reinstall all the software and the old one is 2 years old, running 24/7) That sounds like the Windows Product Activation (WPA) in Windows XP. Is it? XP is banned from my corporate and home networks, and WPA is the major reason why... Can you put Windows 2000 on that machine? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Katinka Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:50 AM Subject: [PEDA] problems loading in DDB's after machine upgrade? then read this !!! Hi All, I nearly had a major problem, I have just spent the last 3 hours trying to get P99SE to run on my new AMD 2000+ machine running PC2700 DDR ram (the new 333Mhz stuff) Problem #1 Protel was crashing on most operations (start auto router then stop it and it would crash) Problem #2 All my (well the 5 I tried) DDB's would fail to open, If I tried to repair I would get a JET DATABASE error of -1023 (or -1032). Background: This machine was a victim of M$ OS BS Change a Motherboard so I can use a new CPU and M$ thinks it is a new install even though the Network card and HDD are the same (AGGG) so it was time to start from scratch (and as I was I put a new 40Gb 7200 RPM drive in as I now HAD to reinstall all the software and the old one is 2 years old, running 24/7) Solution: In my haste to reinstall everything I forgot ONE minor Step to run the SP6 for Protel. SO now a question, is it just me or does SP6 save a DDB so no previous release can open them ??? I will remember this one, as it frustrated me. BTW all my projects are on a network drive so I can access them from both the Office PC and the Workshop PC. Regards, Kat. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Exporting Protel 99SE Library files
Isn't there some Australian law that requires any software publisher to publish their file formats? I thought I heard something like that years ago - maybe it was just a rumor. If it is true, why doesn't some Australian Protel customer call up Altium and demand the file format spec? Then somehow it could be acquired by us non-Aussie Protel users? Why bother to try to reverse-engineer a file format if you can get the spec? If it isn't a law, it should be. In the US, too. Please correct me if I'm wrong... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Template/s for computer motherboards??
I want to build a board that will fit in place of a standard computer motherboard. Unfortunately, there seem to be many standards. :-) The particular computer I have to look at is made by Digital, and I have reason to believe that it may not conform to the norm. All the Digital PCs I have seen in the past use proprietary cases. You should avoid basing your design on any famous brand of PCs. That includes Compaq, Dell, Gateway, HP, Digital, etc. They all like to play silly games with case and board styles to get that imaginary styling edge on the competition. I recommend you go to your local computer shop and buy a standard, generic white box ATX (or mini/micro-ATX) case. This will have the form factor you want. Computers are tools, not art objects/fashion statements. If you want an art object/fashion statement, buy an Apple ;-) BTW, if your board can be really small, you might consider the mini-ITX form factor. I just bought 2 of the Via EPIA mini-ITX boards and they are way cool. They are about 6.5 x 6.5 in. and have 1 PCI slot. They are supposed to fit in standard mini/micro/ATX cases. Also, you will probably want to design your board with an ATX power supply connnector. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Leonard Gabrielson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 11:50 PM Subject: [PEDA] Template/s for computer motherboards?? Hi all, I want to build a board that will fit in place of a standard computer motherboard. Unfortunately, there seem to be many standards. :-) The particular computer I have to look at is made by Digital, and I have reason to believe that it may not conform to the norm. Can anyone tell me where to find a typical footprint/template/ (or even picture) of some standard motherboards? I just want to be sure of mounting hole positions. Thanks for any help, Len Gabrielson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT - DXP Forums Membership
While it is true that you do have to sign up as a member of Yahoo! Groups, once you have done that you are free to join any of the Yahoo! Groups that have Open Membership. How much spam do I have to sign up for? Seriously, one reason why I like the TechServ list is that AFAIK they don't sell it to spammers. And no one who isn't in the PCB biz is likely to be lurking and harvesting e-mail addresses. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: [PEDA] OT - DXP Forums Membership PEDA Forum Members, I am not quite sure whether or not all members of this forum are aware that the two DXP forums operating on Yahoo! Groups, are in fact both Open Membership Groups with totally unrestricted membership, which means that Membership to the Group is actually open and unrestricted and without any conditions. The reason that I bring this up is that I know many people in this forum are considering upgrading to DXP, if they have not already, and therefore may want to keep abreast of developments, even though they do not have the time to post to the forums or participate, they may still wish to receive emails or log on to Yahoo! Groups and review the posts.. While it is true that you do have to sign up as a member of Yahoo! Groups, once you have done that you are free to join any of the Yahoo! Groups that have Open Membership. If on the other hand, the Membership to the Group was Restricted, you may have to agree to certain conditions to join the specific Group, and have your Membership in that Group approved, but since these Groups are Open Membership Groups, the only usage terms that actually apply are the Yahoo? Groups usage terms themselves. The easiest way to join either or both Groups, is to post to the Group, and if you are not already a member, Yahoo! Groups will send you an automatic email that tells you you have to be a member of the Group to post, and provides you with a direct link to join the Group The email addresses for posting to the two forums are as follows The DXP Technical Forum is at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] and the DXP Pre-Release Forum is at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you are not a member of either forum, simply sending an email to either will get you an automatic reply which will provide you with a direct link to join. Hopefuly this is heplful to some. JaMi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Changing Ratsnest Colors in PCB 99SE
JaMi: You are colorblind? What color do you see when you get the Blue Screen of Death (BSOD)? I'll bet you see the same color we all do - RED !!! ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Changing Ratsnest Colors in PCB 99SE Terry, You are not crazy . . . That was the very first thing I tried to change the within 5 minutes of starting to use P99SE, the very first time I used it, and it has been down hill ever since . . . Protel makes it very very hard when you happen to be color blind, and that is why I stick with the classic colors . . . I think that that was just before realizing there was a problem with the Keyboard Shortcuts and the Mouse. Protel didn't have an answer then, and I doubt that they do now . . . JaMi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel 98
of a copy of Protel, one could purchase thirty-two Windows 2000 Pro licenses and still have change left over for a serious dinnwa. What's a dinnwa ? But W2K Pro won't convert his Protel 98 files either. As long as we are doing price comparisons, for the price of P99SE ($9K ?)you could buy 225 boxed Linux distros ($40 each). Or you could (legally) make 36,000 copies of a Linux distro CD ($0.25 per blank CD). Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel 98 From: Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Hello We have large numbers of legacy boards created in P98 but no longer have.P98, now have P99SE...Any suggestions where I might get a copy? P98 files are (or should be) directly compatible with P99SE, (at least after being imported into a P99SE database) and so I am a bit confused as to why you are experiencing such a problem. As for acquiring a copy of P98, it used to be that Protel would, at customer request, issue a copy of previous release(s) to licensed customers, in order to alleviate legacy deisgn issues which might arise for said high-paying customer (never forget, for the price of a copy of Protel, one could purchase thirty-two Windows 2000 Pro licenses and still have change left over for a serious dinnwa. I don't know whether Protel's original, customer-focused policy still applies, but you can always ask. aj * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT: termination for a multidrop bidirectional bus
The rise time is not as important as you might think. You said 30 MHz is I disagree. The problem is when you have devices that are clocked by strobes. Enough ringing on that strobe can cause metastability and/or multiple clocking. If the ringing is bad enough to cause a non-monotonic transition (voltage goes one way, then reverses and goes the other way a little bit, before finally going the first way again) you can get multiple clocking. Even if the voltage transition is monotonic, it can still be slowed by ringing enough to cause metastability. It wouldn't matter if you had a circuit running at 100 KHz - if the rise time is too fast, you still need signal termination to prevent ringing. Ringing is most troublesome when you are accessing FIFO-type devices that have autoincrementing address counters inside them. Metastability and multiple-clocking can cause some bytes to be skipped as the FIFO is emptied (or filled). If the -CS, -RD, and -WR strobes have ringing, your FIFOs may not work correctly. Ringing on the data bus is less critical, as long as it settles out before the active edge of the strobe signal. In extreme cases, however, ringing can cause improper device operation due to overshoot/undershoot causing CMOS latch-up, or inducing too much noise onto the power and ground through input protection diodes. It's enough to make me wish there was a special family of chips with controlled rise/fall times. Some PLDs and FPGAs have programmable rise/fall times, but I'd love to see this capability in other types of chips (standard logic, etc). Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Richard Sumner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT: termination for a multidrop bidirectional bus Brian, The rise time is not as important as you might think. You said 30 MHz is the frequency. If that means that there is 30 nanoseconds between edges, you can probably ignore terminations on the data lines. There will be some ringing for a few reflection times (perhaps 5-10 ns) but then the level will be stable. The multidrops on the line will add more little reflections anyway, and they will actually help damp the line. If you can wait 15 ns (for example) after the edge before sampling the data, you're home free. The timing signals (clocks or strobes) should be clean, so invest in proper terminations on these lines. Now if 30 MHz was a typo and you really meant 300 MHz, then start adding resistors! Richard * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT - bd testing
We need to come up with some kind of online blacklist (or whitelist) of PCB fabs. I certainly would not want to be a victim of inadequate (or fraudulent) board testing. How could we do this? Some sort of blog with anecdotal entries? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 12:31 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT - bd testing thanks for all of your comments on bare board testing i learned a lot and also see better the dark underbelly of this beast Dennis Saputelli * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT: termination for a multidrop bidirectional bus
Richard: Sorry, I guess I didn't read your posting well enough (once is not always enough!). We didn't need to worry about this stuff back in the days of TTL and metal-gate CMOS. I used to see big, long backplanes with big, bold tracks on 2-sided PCBs, and big, long stubs (plug-in cards), and it was no problem. Termination networks - what's that? Until the engineers (not me, I was a tech then) doubled the clock rate (to a whopping 5 MHz) on the new model - then when I plugged an extender card into the backplane to diagnose a board, stuff quit working... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Richard Sumner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT: termination for a multidrop bidirectional bus Ivan, I agree completely. However I did note that clocks and strobes should be clean, perhaps not emphatically enough though! One way to reduce the overshoot on an unterminated trace is to really load the drivers. For example, by making the trace Z as low as you can (a wide trace and a small spacing to the ground plane). Until the reflection returns, the driver sees the Z of the trace as the load. Richard * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT - Complex boards and time to Layout?
Wow! I'm amazed that boards like that can be produced with any yield greater than zero. And that's just for the PCB. How about the part population process? There's gotta be at least one or two pin shorts or opens coming off the assembly line on a board that complex! With a board that complex, your board vendor had better actually be doing electrical test, instead of just charging for it and not doing it... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT engineering and politics WAS: converting protel schematic to orcad
Don't unsubscribe, just delete this message NOW if you don't want it. Ivan I like the way you think For some reason I don't even see the standalone schematic as being available with DXP, I think it's been done away with, as in only the full boat is available. With the integration of data and footprints as such I can see why. It's an interconnectivity thing. Any chance you going into politics. No way! I like engineering. I can't stand politics. They are the exact opposite of each other. Consider: 1) Engineering is where you work within the constraints of natural law, which does not change. Occasionally your understanding of natural law improves, but natural law itself does not change. Therefore you have a solid foundation to upon which to build science, applications, etc and grow a body of knowledge. 2) Politics is where you work to construct, destruct, and change legislative law, which is a totally artificial man-made construct. Legislative law is always changing, therefore you have no solid foundation upon which to build a government, society, etc. You could grow a body of legal knowledge, and then have it legislated away into irrelevance. A prime example of this is funding of child care in Florida. Each governer's administration that comes in undoes what the predecessor did. Child care agencies (private non-profits) have to redo all of their child care programs and state contracts to work with the new laws. And then they have to find a way to reconcile the state changes with federal changes. All this just to keep doing what they have been doing for years. What a colossal waste of time! Some people may claim that the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights are a solid foundation upon which to build. That is true only if the elected reps hold it in high regard. When the reps look upon it as merely legal mechanics to be exploited and worked around for the benefit of the highest bidders, it becomes worthless. The people may still rally around the Constitution and Bill of Rights, but their reps have already moved on... It is a shame that politics is the playground of lawyers. Much better laws and decisions could be made if those in charge actually worked in the fields they governed. I sure would like to be the one in charge of IP and anti-trust law! If I was, there would be maybe a hundredth as many patents as there are now, and we'd be saying micro-who?. I apologize for the OT reply, but I did need to answer this. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Joe Sapienza [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] converting protel schematic to orcad Ivan I like the way you think For some reason I don't even see the standalone schematic as being available with DXP, I think it's been done away with, as in only the full boat is available. With the integration of data and footprints as such I can see why. It's an interconnectivity thing. Any chance you going into politics. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Twisted-pair tracks
Cam: How did you test it? What were you testing for? Twisted pairs are good for reducing interference from other sources. They are less effective at reducing interference emitted by your device. The principle is that EM fields fluxing through the loop area formed by your signal conductors generates currents (interference) in your signal conductors. By reducing the loop area you can reduce the interference. But the loop area cannot be reduced to zero, so there will always be some interference. To reduce interference even further, twist the conductors around each other. What this does is make the EM flux currents cancel, since the flux current going through one twist of the loop cancels the flux current going through the adjacent loop. This is why twisted pair is used by 10/100baseT ethernet. You can run 300 ft. ethernet drops of CAT5 and still get good signal integrity, even with all the trash in the EM spectrum (and getting trashier every day). On a PCB, you would have to use vias for your loop crossovers. You would also need to make sure the lengths of each track segment are identical, since symmetry is vital to make the concept work. And put the traces as close together as possible and still be manufacturable. If you are also trying to achieve a tightly controlled impedance, that would be tricky... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Cam Andruik [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 12:47 PM Subject: [PEDA] Twisted-pair tracks Has anyone ever tried to fake creating a twisted-pair on a PCB? I tried doing so on a recent board and our testing indicates that it did nothing. I think it is a waste of time to even attempt it but some people here think it is helpful. Thanks for any input, Cam Andruik Harding Instruments * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] So sue me ...(was:Crunch time?)
As steamed as most of us are, The Borgs were right resistance is futile You never saw the series finale of Star Trek: Voyager, eh? It proved that resistance is far from futile. Now, if I could just buy a tachyon generator from some Klingon dude on eBay. I could go back in time and tell the Altium execs to do SP7 instead of DXP. But I bet they wouldn't listen to me. Maybe if I took some e-mails from the future with me... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Michael Reagan (EDSI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] So sue me ...(was:Crunch time?) Jami, Don't get me wrong I like a rebel with an attitude! March on troops but I think we are going to be left in the dust holding our breath waiting for SP7 even if we pay wish a premium on it.Protel would then be supporting 3 products, 99SE, DXP and Accel Pee Pee cad.I don think were going to see that. As steamed as most of us are, The Borgs were right resistance is futile Mike Reagan * Tracking #: 72D99D3B86F3EA4690BEEE962409C682BB2BF050 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] So sue me ...(was:Crunch time?)
Unfortunately, Roger had Cancer, and died within a short time after all of this happened, and so I really do not know who really ended up with what in the end. JaMi, how do you know he's not still alive, sitting on a South American or Caribbean beach, sipping drinks and hanging out with Elvis ? ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:11 PM Subject: [PEDA] So sue me ...(was:Crunch time?) * Tracking #: CBD8479AC66FA141A6E4170BC22EA8949A776074 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] So sue me ...(was:Crunch time?)
Yes Altium, I really do want my SP7 I second that motion. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:32 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] So sue me ...(was:Crunch time?) * Tracking #: 77192193B7945C4B8F9167D362BD7FC6CBD86145 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel clone on the way?!?!?!
Wasn't AutoTrax the predecessor to Protel? I wonder if the original DOS code has been recycled into a Windows app? Did anyone on this list use the original DOS AutoTrax software? How does this compare? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Stephen Casey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 7:32 AM Subject: [PEDA] Protel clone on the way?!?!?! Hello all, I haven't looked in great depth at this, so draw your own conclusions: http://www.autotraxeda.com/ Interesting, no? Steve. * Tracking #: FDE37C3C1A14CE49AE5E6D600B3ABF48B8E75D4C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] SP7 and beyond
Yes, there is pin swapping within DXP. This is a horrible pox. Why would anyone wish to declare pin 1 is really pin 5 ? That's not what pin swapping is supposed to be. Pin swapping is where the pins retain their proper numberings, but the nets that they are connected to can be swapped. Protel PCB v2.8 had this feature, and they took it away in later versions. Pin swapping is very useful when a PCB must be laid out for 2 layers, and signals must be flowed from one component to another without vias. I used this feature extensively on a PCB back in 1996. I created the schematic, brought the netlist into PCB, routed and swapped pins, then corrected the schematic to match the routed PCB. It was impressive the amount of circuitry I put on that 2 layer PCB. A photo of the board (see I/O Board) is here: http://www.bagotronix.com/custom.html Yes, that's a 2-layer PCB! Gate swapping is also useful for optimizing routing when you are using multi-part components, such as a 74HC14 hex inverter. I would like to see these features put back into Protel 99SE. If they have made it back into DXP, that's good, I suppose. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Fabian Hartery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:14 PM Subject: [PEDA] SP7 and beyond To all... It is obvious the major failings of DXP are no doubt due to a failure of Altium to survey its client base to see what would be truly desired within a new product. The 'we think you want' policy does work well when viewed against the 'we can go away' reaction. There *has* to be an intent to merger PCAD and Protel some point in the future. The talk of PCAD as a high end solution is just a Linus factor. I have done far more work in a less painful fashion with 99SE, at a tremdous cost savings. I took the time to accept the learning curve that was not taken as acceptable by a PCAD user. My point is, I do not like endless hot keys. For a mechanical designer, the same evolutions exists for AutoCad users who have migrated from Desktop to Inventor. If my early perceptions were correct, with the Accel buy out, there was a import engine offered as a Protel feature six months into this game. There was also a buy-in incentive as well. I preceive there was no mass migration to Protel because of 'the scare factor' that was all so evident when 98 users met 99. This is not the same for DXP. 99SE was/is good. Not flawless, just good in a manner that is lean and very efficient to me. 98, while also good never consolidated a work effort within a common, controllable, database. This is a feature I have come to admire. Yes, there is pin swapping within DXP. This is a horrible pox. Why would anyone wish to declare pin 1 is really pin 5 ? The only plus within DXP is that there is an intent to merger the SCH/PCB libraries. That is fine *if* the user is in ultimate control, not the s/w. The fact that the DDB regime 'may' disappear means, I have to go back and police libraires and revisions all over again. Links ? Links can be broken, confused or just simply lost. When multiple designers manipulate a common library without a consolidation manager, life is just aweful. All I want to say is, I need no more work. Like many others, I will support ATS if it means SP7 will arrive to give DXP the time to sort out its bugs. To me, it was SP3 that accomplished much of that for 99SE. After SP5, I saw no major improvements that affected my designs directly. With DXP, I do not have the time to fix things I did not want to see broke in the first place. Fabian Hartery Research Engineer, B. Eng (Electrical) Guigne International Limited 63 Thorburn Road St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada A1B3M2 tel: 709-738-4070 fax: 709-738-4093 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.guigne.com -- -- This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies from your system; you should not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone. Any dissemination, distribution or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. We cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. -- -- * Tracking #: D23846867F934845AD452A50B4E487F4813D57A0 *
Re: [PEDA] So sue me ...(was:Crunch time?)
I have hit monitors hard enough to break them when Protel 99 SE has screwed me up. JaMi, be careful with your rage. CRTs have a vacuum inside them, and can implode. The shower of glass shards could seriously injure you. When I was 11 years old (mid 1970's), I would salvage old TV sets from the dumpster and take them apart. One day I had just taken the guts out of a 25 in. color set, and gently put the CRT on a padded chair. I knew even then that they had vacuum in them and could be hazardous. Even so, the CRT imploded a couple of hours later. Fortunately, no one was in that room when it happened. It was so loud I thought some criminal had shot the sliding glass door with a shotgun (I was home alone at the time - no jokes about the movie please). After 30 minutes of hiding and being absolutely quiet, I sneaked out of my room and found glass everywhere, even around corners! I have ZERO TOLERANCE for incompetence. I have ZERO TOLERANCE for crap. Yeah, I hate it too. But you are going to be a miserable person if you let it get to you, because there is lots of incompetence and lots of crap in this world. And lots of people who don't mind propagating it. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] So sue me ...(was:Crunch time?) Ian See below, JaMi - Original Message - From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:51 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] So sue me ...(was:Crunch time?) On 02:48 AM 10/09/2002 -0700, Tony Karavidas said: Hi Jami, ..snip.. Please remember that long before I joined this forum, you, and many of the other major players here have had a very long time to relate to Altium and motivate them with that personal connection, and we are still at SP6, and all you have gotten from Altium is the opportunity to pay for ATS and buy a lottery ticket called DXP that may or may not ever produce. Not quite true. Several people were picked as beta testers for unknown reasons, I happen to be one of them. One thing that I (and many others) got out of it was to be able to voice our opinions directly to the development team and have them make changes to DXP in direct relationship to what we were saying! That is pretty powerful. There were some big changes that happened in that period and it was because some user's ideas were better than the developer's ideas. I think that's pretty darn cool. Jami, I gotta step in here. Jami you should compare the changes in P99 to P99SE. These changes were achieved largely by careful considered discussion on this forum and some efforts by some users to present polls and collate the results. Others may like to document this history if required. They were not achieved by the rants and raves that many of us (me very much included) had engaged in prior. The efforts by users to engage Protel (as it was) rather than fight proved to be much more successful and may have been part of the support sea-change in Protel that was observed in the period between late P98 and P99SE SP6. We are in danger of loosing this engagement - at least on this list. The forum members here can make a call as to the current SNR of this list. You may think this is going soft on Altium - so be it. I see it as a cooperative method of helping the company I currently rely on to operate my business. Personally - I think I am having a better chance of achieving change with the sort of discussion underway on the DXP forum than the degenerating flailing of this list. Would I like SP7 for P99SE - sure would. Ian Wilson Thanks Ian, I really and truly can understand and do in fact appreciate all that you and all of the other guys (and gals) here in the forum have gone thru with Protel / Altium in the past, and respect the working relationship that you guys have built with them, and everything that has been accomplished. I also really and truly respect what you are saying regarding manners of communication, and what can be accomplished by taking the time and energy to try and approach people and things in the right t way. However, without in any manner attempting to belittle or berate or ignore all of that, the fact is that I have a job to do, whether for myself, on my own copy of Protel 99 SE, or for my employer, on his Protel 99 SE. Protel 99 SE is a tool that I choose (at home) or have (at work) to use to do my job. It is not whatever history you guys have with Protel 99 SE and its predecessors. It is not whether Protel 99 SE SP6 works better than SP5, or SP1, or 99, or 98. It is not that Protel 99 SE works reasonably well 98 percent of the time. It is not that Protel 99 SE does 98
Re: [PEDA] KLUNK! - Whats wrong with this picture.
Lots of message traffic in this KLUNK! thread... KLUNK! reminds me of the animated cartoon series (Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines) that featured WWI-style pilots Dick Dastardly, his dog Muttley, and 2 screw-up sidekick pilots, one of whom was named Klunk. Dick Dastardly and his sidekicks (bad guys cast as a German stereotype) were always trying to stop the carrier pigeon (Yankee Doodle) from delivering the vital message of the day (whatever that was). Dastardly and his sidekicks would devise the most hare-brained of schemes to stop that pigeon!, and they would always fail, in a hilarious spectacular crash. Here is a website about this old cartoon show: http://www.tibonia.com/Dmeg1.htm If we are Yankee Doodle pigeon (carrying money), and Altium is the Vulture Squadron, it seems that Altium's recent ATS and DXP efforts (hare-brained schemes to get that money) are crashing and burning similarly. :-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * Tracking #: 00A5912C470F794D8335C4AB6369D929792C073E * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] DXP - Crunch time?
5. SP7 for 99SE has once again emerged as a topic of interest. The current SP6 is not perfect, but it is certainly functional. Some serious cleanup and a few finishing touches could turn 99SE into a splendid, first-class program. I wholeheartedly support the idea, and hope that a strong thrust in this direction can be generated. Hey, Abdul, I know Fred wasn't directing his statements at you, but he did remind me of some things you said in an e-mail about a year or so ago. If I recall correctly, you said you had seen a demo of something that at the time you thought was SP7 for 99SE. You said it was going to be awesome, with improvements in the AR and such. Fast forward to the present, and the fact that SP7 never materialized, and DXP was foisted upon us. Abdul, did you receive disinformation, or did Altium change their mind after they showed you the awesome pre-SP7 ? I ask because I would like to know what happened to the SP7 effort, if there ever was one. If there was, maybe Altium could dust off the code archives and restart it to keep the angry mob (us 99SE users) at bay. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Fred A Rupinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] DXP - Crunch time? Tony, Before leaving this thread, I would like to recap a few final points: 1. This thread addresses the current practical value of DXP. Your comment, The overall spin of DXP has been so bad, I think it's scary from their point of view and if it were me running the show I'd be listening very closely to this group., along with comments from other contributors who echo a similar sentiment, provides us all some insight as to the current status of DXP. Consequently, I will wait until user reports indicate that DXP has become a quality product capable of addressing my needs before I personally evaluate it. 99SE will suffice until DXP demonstrably performs to my advantage. 2. We all have been deceived by certain vendors who ship RELEASED software with known bugs and subsequently have been bitten by these very same bugs. We cope with the situation because, as you say, it may be in our better interest to use the buggy software. Software vendors know this, and some of them unscrupulously exploit the situation. I resent this practice with the utmost conviction. It is unethical and I will always speak against it. A lawsuit is folly, but I won't side with those who are apathetic. 3. I did not invent the sliding scale concept you so disparage, but I would be happy to take credit if I did; it's a creative marketing idea successfully used by other companies faced with a DXP-like situation. By the way, 10,000 times $1,600 = $16,000,000. But let's try some alternative arithmetic. If Altium were lucky enough to find 500 buyers who would pay $8000 for bug-ridden software, that would yield $4,000,000, definitely not the better return. The THRIFTY buyers would no doubt migrate towards the $400/$1600 PRE-DISTRIBUTION discount, as you claim. They, of course, would be aware that they would pay in other ways, not the least of which is exposure to the risk of unproven software. But the SMART money would wait for the proven final release. Reduced risk justifies greater financial exposure, plus minimum liaison required with Altium, far fewer bug episodes, reduced expense due to wasted time, enhanced probability of meeting project schedules, higher quality board layouts..think about it. Notwithstanding our lack of Altium CEO status, we can certainly relate our thoughts, but alas, it's not for us to tell Altium how to run their business. 4. Altera, Xilinx, and Visual DSP are irrelevant. I don't need them, so why should I care? I have a core group of software tools I use in my work. I rank each one on its own merit. Likewise, DXP must stand on its own merit. The fact that other software may be faulty does not make DXP a better program. 5. SP7 for 99SE has once again emerged as a topic of interest. The current SP6 is not perfect, but it is certainly functional. Some serious cleanup and a few finishing touches could turn 99SE into a splendid, first-class program. I wholeheartedly support the idea, and hope that a strong thrust in this direction can be generated. Thanks for a challenging and constructive dialog. Regards, Fred A Rupinski * Tracking #: 6CD82D3D406AE841BB83D257C39AFA303A1F5B99 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: *
Re: [PEDA] DXP - Sp7?? Crunch time?
hey ivan, you ought spend a half an hour and play with the DXP demo i know you're not going to buy it, but we'd love to hear your take on what you see You just want to hear the humorous things I would say about it... Seriously, I cannot justify taking the time to play with the DXP demo. Reasons: 1) 99SE works OK for me. 2) If I liked what I saw, it would cost me to (up?)grade and get on the ATS gravy train, er, I mean bandwagon. 3) The DXP demo would probably screw up my existing 99SE installation. I don't have a second W2K machine to try it on. 4) The AR is not improved, from what I hear from others Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] DXP - Sp7?? Crunch time? * Tracking #: CE99BA04222DB24A890303F77205D8196F406A47 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] DXP - Sp7?? Crunch time?
but as to #3 the answer is no it won't effect 99SE at all it is a separate universe But W2K is the wormhole that connects them... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] DXP - Sp7?? Crunch time? well yes but as to #3 the answer is no it won't effect 99SE at all it is a separate universe the only small thing i noticed was that it changed the file association for .CAM maybe others i haven't seen yet, but that is no biggie * Tracking #: DEB5FAA8BA985D4CA29F7696A6865083427E9F42 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] DXP - Crunch time?
[About Tsien] Also, the support is almost void and the support page was last updated over three years ago. Not a good sign. What is going to be Altium's support webpage policy with ATS? Will there be searchable support FAQs, downloadable patches, and such? Will they be available by ATS subscription only, or to all website visitors? I have seen several examples of web-based support that was only available if you had an active annual support contract. Frankly, those sucked. A credit card merchant software package comes to mind. Another example I have seen didn't require a support contract, but you still had to have a login name and password to submit a request to the support department. When they felt like it (2 months later), they would respond with an answer to a question you did not ask. And no bug fixes, workarounds, or errata were viewable on the website - it was just a browser form. You just crossed your fingers and hoped they looked up the right issue for you. I am referring to Zilog, of course. I think support issues should be posted free of charge on the website for all to see. That's what we do. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] DXP - Crunch time? I personally have a hunch that they will address all these complaints very quickly. They overall spin of DXP has been so bad, I think it's scary from their point of view and if it were me running the show I'd be listening very closely to this group. I see lots of great ideas in DXP mixed with several areas of poor implementation. I think a lot of the complaints here are generated because DXP was released too early. If they had waited until SP1 or SP2 (whatever changes and fixes those will bring) I think the initial comments would have been much more positive. Altium has the ability to make pretty big changes quickly. (as seen in recent times by many of us) Maybe their new development environment will allow them to address these complaints far faster than previously seen with P99SE. As far as Tsien's s/w: It looked to me like you could only lease it on an annual basis. Yes, it's cheap at roughly $400/year, but if you stop paying, does the dongle (which I HATE) timeout? Probably. No thanks. Also, the support is almost void and the support page was last updated over three years ago. Not a good sign. * Tracking #: 6BE03449B68DB149A85EDF29344A0BCE6C8B0ADB * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Service Pack 7 vs DXP issues
results were worse than my results in some cases. Perhaps I am too picky but I see no reason for 5 or six power vias near each other all connected by short traces on various layers to tie one pin to the power buss when just one via would have done the job. Several acid traps and traces exiting pads at oddball angles with stairstepping. After reviewing the sample boards, I This is behavior exhibited by the 99SE AR and Advanced Route 3.1 also. It seems Situs is no improvement. If you use the AR, you must resign yourself to manually cleaning up these crazy routes. It is part of my manual post-processing to consolidate power vias and delete stairstep tracks. I say again: Route all your critical nets manually, lock 'em down, and then let AR do the rest. Then clean up after it. My guess is they are still using the Neurorouter code and just don't know how it works, so they cannot improve upon it. But they can give it a new name. I am Situs of Borg. Routing is futile. Your nets will be meandered. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Service Pack 7 vs DXP issues I am not experienced in using the new Situs router but I have tried it with disastrous results. Since I thought I might have been doing something wrong, I loaded the sample boards routed at Altium by what I would have thought to be an experienced Situs user. I posted a list of sample areas to look at on these boards a while ago on the DXP forum. From what I saw, the results were worse than my results in some cases. Perhaps I am too picky but I see no reason for 5 or six power vias near each other all connected by short traces on various layers to tie one pin to the power buss when just one via would have done the job. Several acid traps and traces exiting pads at oddball angles with stairstepping. After reviewing the sample boards, I decided not to mess with Situs again until a few service packs have come out. Overall, I did not see anything in the sample boards to indicate that Situs is an improvement. Rob - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Service Pack 7 vs DXP issues At 04:23 PM 8/30/2002 -0400, Michael Reagan (EDSI) wrote: I probably would pay for SP7 with as long as they met the long list of our requirements also. I too have been put off by the complexities introduced with DXP. If it had been, say, a bug fix for 99SE, at a corresponding price, there is no doubt that I'd be using it. If the additional features had come without greatly confusing the user interface (for one used to 99SE), I'd be wanting them too. We were long awaiting an improved autorouter, and I had heard rumors about how good it was going to be, rivalling Specctra, etc. I haven't seen any comments on the DXP list on Situs except for some information about the design rules it follows, which have not been much improved, i.e., there are apparently still plenty of rules which are ignored. Something is wrong. The unfortunate thing about the DXP release is that the work was invested, it would seem, in advance of a true marketing study, at least of one involving a sufficient number of existing users. Programming for a service pack is one thing, programming for feature improvements may be something else. It is difficult, I'd think, to go back, but it might not be impossible. The theory behind the Client/Server architecture was that the individual modules were separately maintainable. How much the Advanced PCB server was modified to make it into the DXP PCB server, I don't know. I would think that solid software management for a product like Protel would involve continuously fixing bugs, as soon as possible, releasing service packs regularly, and sometimes including feature improvements -- gradually -- as part of the process. A maintenance model allows this, which is probably one reason why Altium has gone that way. The transition, however, has not been handled well. There should never have been such a dead time with no service pack. SP7 should have been released long ago. I can understand the argument that was probably put forth: since we are going to make all these major changes, we need to put all our effort into them instead of fooling around with code that is going to become obsolete anyway. Yet this argument is one that keeps software buggy on into eternity. There is a reason why organisms only change a little DNA at a time! Make too many changes at once, nothing works well any more. So then you have to do all kinds of new software testing, etc., to try to find the bugs that have been introduced with the changes.
Re: [PEDA] Service Pack 7 - or free DXP
Not only is that, there are still customers and small companies out there that want only schematic capture tools at a low cost.If I am not mistaken you can only purchase Schematic tools from Orcad and Eagle software. Cadence reluctantly sold me the sch tools because I am such a IMO, Altium should give away the SCH editor. This would greatly increase their PCB suite sales. The reason: Protel SCH would then become the new standard for schematic entry. By giving away the SCH, chip companies would use it to base their reference designs on. Then, users of those chips would take the reference SCH, and use a free copy of the SCH editor to create their design. Once they are used to Protel SCH, they would probably buy the PCB suite. I get annoyed every time I go to a chip mfrs website to download reference schematics, and they are all in Orcad. I don't want to mess with conversion to Protel, because I have tried this before several times, and it has never worked. I end up having to create all my own parts and schematics from scratch. What a pain for huge parts with hundreds of pins! Altium should think about all those engineering students and hobbyists who someday will be working for companies or starting their own businesses. Get those people hooked on good products, and you will have a good revenue stream into the future. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Michael Reagan (EDSI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Service Pack 7 - or free DXP * Tracking #: 927B5D386A1375418AAB921DE9FF00C42F69C63B * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bizzare and Repeatable
I don't know if this is the same problem I've seen, but I suspect it is, just manifesting differently on my machine (CADzilla, dual PIII-1GHz, W2K SP2, 512MB RAM, Matrox G450, 99SE SP6) During the loading of 99SE, if I switch the focus away from Protel, I get an error message something like 'exception: the memory at : could not be read '. The Protel session starts up, but everything I try to do with it causes another error message. 99SE rules of thumb: 1) When 99SE is loading, DO NOT switch the focus away from it 2) If you are thinking of switching the focus during loading, see rule #1 Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: JaMi Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 4:20 AM Subject: [PEDA] Bizzare and Repeatable I'm running P99SE SP6 on an IBM NetVista 6648 with a Pentium III 866 with 128M of memory (yes I know I need more), and W2K PRO SP2, and Office 2K PRO SP2, Internet Explorer 5.5, all recently installed from Scratch. I have a Logitech Mouse and Mouseware, and an external Parallel Port CD Rom R/W. The only other software on the machine is: Adobe Acrobat Reader 5, Real One Player, PowerDesk 4 Pro from Ontrack, and Norton Antivirus which came with the machine from IBM, and CAMtastic. In have had the machine for about 10 months, and never had any failure or problems of any kind with it. I recently aquired the External CD R/W, and after installing it, I completely reloaded everything from the IBM / Win2K Restoration Partition on the 20 Gig Hard Drive.. I had been working on a Protel Project which has 2 small libraries (40 parts in one and 6 in the other), 2 small PCB's which are both barely started, and a couple of OrcAD 7.20 Netlists, all in the same DDB, and all open. I open and close the Protel Database several times from the Desktop Shortcut, and after saving all files, close it with the big X, without closing individual files first. I have been working on the thing for over a week, open, close, up, down, etc., with no problems. Somehow I have gotten a little problem with my OrCAD 7.20 Netlist and one page of the schematic is getting corrupted, and generating a bogus Netlist, or maybe Protel is messing them up on the import. By the way, the OrCad is on another machine, and I import the netlist across the network. I had rebooted both machines, several times, and I had just generated a new netlist on the other machine, and the problem with the netlist is not the problem that I am concerned with here (although if anyone is an expert on OrCAD netlist problems I'll accept any suggestions about that). The netlist problem simply led up to the Protel Problem I will now describe. I go to the IBM, and launch Protel from the shortcut. It normally takes about 15 seconds to load all of the files. This time, however, rather than wait for Protel to load, I hit the minimize button while it still has its little Protel Logo Box in the center of the screen, and is starting to load files, and it dissappears into the taskbar, so I can launch PowerDesk (or Explorer, or something else) so that I can go directly to the other system and copy the netlist to the local drive before importing (to eliminate anything that may be be happening because of the import across the network). After double clicking the Powerdesk shortcut, while it is launching, I go back to the Taskbar and hit Protel to enlarge it again. The Protel Ghost Screen, as I call it, appears on the screen, which consists of the Protel title bar (banner) across the top of the screen, with an empty gray menu bar (no text (File, Edit, etc)), and an empty gray bar at the bottom of the screen, but with no Protel in the middle of the screen - just a hole - sometimes you can see what was there before, and sometimes it is just gray background. I have become very familiar over the last year with this Protel Ghost Screen, as it appears to be the Protel equivilent of what the Blue Screen of Death is to Microsoft. Anyway, on numerous occasions during the past year when Protel has gone south for the winter, it has left this Ghost Screen behind, and simply crashed out of Protel, but not crashed the system (other than trashing the graphics of the Desktop). The other common form of Protel crash that I am also very familiar with is the one where the system simply locks up, where occasionally, if you can do a CntlAltDel, you might be lucky enough to get to the Task Manager and recover, but most of the time you simply have to do a hard reset or power down. Anyway, all that is a preface to this. This time, in the middle of the Ghost Screen, something I have never seen before, the little Protel Logo Box in the center of thescreen. Protel has crashed, and is no longer running, and I have the Ghost Screen and Logo Box on top of everything. Windows is still
Re: [PEDA] Bizzare and Repeatable
A couple of things : If you are going to run a CAD application reserve one machine for nothing but CAD. Do not EVER run ANYTHING else on it , and especialy do not use the same machine to surf the web . Boot it , launch protel , close protel , shutdown computer. That is all that is OK, so how many more apps are we going to devote an entire machine to? If I did this, there would be no room in my office for me! I already have 4 PCs (Linux server, 486 hackbox, W2K CADzilla, W95 print server) on/under my desk, 2 printers, and the usual test equipment (LA, scope, PS, etc.)! And they are all used each day. The areas under and behind my desk look like the aftermath of an explosion at a wire factory! I refuse to devote an entire machine to CAD only. If that's the way CAD software is designed, then to hell with it - that's poor design. For what it's worth, Protel 99SE running on W2K works pretty well, no resource limitations like in W9X. Just don't switch the focus while 99SE is loading! And don't select a non-existent network printer! Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: vincent mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Bizzare and Repeatable Intel RC440 BX motherboard with TNT2 + 16 meg on board Pentium II - 400 64 meg ram 30 Gbyte harddisk running windows 98 Se and protel 99 SE NEVER had protel crap out on me WHEN it was running ALONE !! (launching other things would make it lock up occasionally) . Have made a lot of designs ( 6 layer boards smd ) on that thing and now retired it. It wasn't exactly a supersonic hyperjet computer but protel didn't crash Upgraded to a PIV 2 Ghz with a gig of ram and Win2k SP3. Intel 854BG motherboard. A couple of things : If you are going to run a CAD application reserve one machine for nothing but CAD. Do not EVER run ANYTHING else on it , and especialy do not use the same machine to surf the web . Boot it , launch protel , close protel , shutdown computer. That is all that is allowed. I use norton antivirus to protect the gateway between the machine and the file server. Protel is a RESOURCE hog , not a memory hog !. You can beef up your machine with all the ram you can cram in it. There is only 64K of memory allocated for resource management. When it is up it is up. And protel eats that chunk of memory like crazy. Protel only loads servers during it session run. Open a text document inside protel : the text server fires up , hogs resources . close all text documents : memory gets freed but the server itself keeps running. Go to the server control panel and manually STOP the text server. Just have windows resourcemeter open and see what happens to the resources. You will be amazed. During a typicla run so many servers inside protel get started but never stopped. Other known resource hogs are netscape , internet explorer , acrobat writer and reader , and any office program. In other words , when you run protel :don't run anything else. Other thing : There are apparently a couple of memory leaks inside protel 99Se . If you leave protel open unattened overnight : Bad idea. If you don't need it shut it down. Another tinhg. Before closing down protel. Close your designs. Then close protel. The next time you continue a session pick it from the recently used files. We have a bunch of licences here and i have people whining that it sometimes behaves funny. Well you should see what they have open at the same time . You wouldnt believe your eyes. When i run a session i close all applications , pop up the task manger , kill off anything i find there except for Navprotect ( Antivirus ) , Systray ( which you cant kill anyway ) and Explorer ( that is you desktop itself ) , and then fire up protel. Runs liek a dream everytime. Another thing NEVER EVER use the database format . Microsoft ODBC is just a pile of junk.The first goofball program that comes along and modifies or updates on of the ODBC components can ruin protel. Use the windows filesystem when creating a new project ( on 99 or 99 Se ) Have been using protel since it still was a DOS program ( Autotrax and Schematic for dos ) and i'm very happy with it. Made maybe over 800 boards in my lifetime with it. Even used 99Se it a couple of times to route an analog IC ( and i mean routing the silicon ! not a board ! , we would export the cad data from Analog Artist or Cadence , import in protel , route the cells , export to DXf and re-import the metal layers in Cadence . I work for a company that makes integrated circuits : see below ) I don't know if this is the same problem I've seen, but I suspect it is, just manifesting differently on my machine (CADzilla, dual PIII-1GHz, W2K SP2, 512MB RAM, Matrox G450, 99SE SP6) 99SE rules of thumb: 1) When 99SE is loading, DO NOT switch the focus away from it
Re: [PEDA] Service Pack 7 vs DXP issues
I am amazed at the number of items that are apparently missing from DXP according to the forum messages. Nick keeps coming in and stating that it is coming. Why wasn't it there at release, it was an existing feature/function in P99SE? This is what I mean by incompetent, they release a new package that is in a number of ways less functional than the old version. That is real incompetence, releasing a down-grade. It's called marketing. It's also called ATS. They don't want to release everything in DXP up front, because then they will have nothing to add in later, and you will feel robbed of your ATS fees. This stuff happens elsewhere too. Windows XP Home doesn't log into domains. W9X does. M$ removed that feature and makes you pay for it by upgrading XP Home to XP Pro. Luckily, I don't have XP on any machines around here or at my home...won't be getting it either, unless I buy a new laptop (not anytime soon). Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Service Pack 7 vs DXP issues Dennis, hahahahaha, you just had to stick that export in again didn't you? I agree with the concept of giving away schematic, a near giveaway program worked for OrCAD for so many years. I have even spoke with a couple Protel NA employees who think similarly, seems it is never going to happen though from the comments they fed back to me. As for DXP, all I have done is monitor the DXP forum and I feel robbed of my time! We didn't list the new VHDL functions/features that they have added to DXP, another non-feature to me. I am amazed at the number of items that are apparently missing from DXP according to the forum messages. Nick keeps coming in and stating that it is coming. Why wasn't it there at release, it was an existing feature/function in P99SE? This is what I mean by incompetent, they release a new package that is in a number of ways less functional than the old version. That is real incompetence, releasing a down-grade. I think that some of the smart investors are monitoring this listserver or the DXP group periodically, I think it is reflected in Altium's stock price. Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com Norsat's Microwave Products Division has now achieved ISO 9001:2000 certification -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:24 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Service Pack 7 vs DXP issues i also never use PLD, Simulation or 3D non-viewer i spent about 4 hours on DXP and felt stupid and robbed of my time SNIP i think Ivan's idea about giving schematic away is good one not that they will ever do it, but something along those lines may popularize it enough that we will not be penalized for using protel schematic as we are now did i ever mention that i thought protel should export schematics to orcad DSN files? (only kidding - i keep hammering this but they will not respond to me about it) 99SE SP7 item add export to Orcad sch DSN files Dennis Saputelli * Tracking #: F3F7EF1DADC3D045B99DA6621B8660296D1A1BC8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bizzare and Repeatable
See replies below. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: vincent mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Bizzare and Repeatable Dump the w95 print server and use a networkable printer or a printserver box like made by netgear or use the linux box to serve the printers. Cadzilla can run protel. the hackpc remains the hackpc. ( everyone needs a pc with wires soldered on the motherboard , believe me , i do this all the time in the lab. NO joke ! ) W95 print server runs fine, no reason to dump it. The PC is an old 200 MHz Pentium that used to be my main machine. The problem with running printers on the linux box or printerserver gizmos is that the special features of the printer drivers aren't available. Such as checking ink levels, cleaning print heads, checking toner levels, etc. You only get that when running Windows on the printserver. Use the linuxbox to surf the web. Linux box is the LAN server, internet gateway, and shared drive. We don't mess with it. It just keeps going, and going, and going (boom boom boom energizer bunny image). Use a KVM switch ( there are KVM's thatr can be controlled from the keyboard these days by hitting scroll lock twice followed by the number of the port you want to connect ) and get yourself a nice 18 inch LCD an a pendulum arm so you can move it out of the way when not needed. Get a wireless mouse and keyboard ( no more cables ) Got a KVM switch already. Wireless mouse and keyboard - that's a thought. Get slim tower cases and bolt them on a bearing mounted tray underneath the desk. They are out of the way and you can wheel them out when you need access to them. I like expandability, so slim tower cases don't suit me. I've run out of slots and drive bays too many times to want slim cases. For the testequipment:. HP makes a real neat USB connected logic analyser. Or get one of their Infiniium MegaZoom machines. Tenma makes a very compact 3 channel power supply , function generator , multimeter and frequency counter in one box. You can stash all test equipment on a 19 inch wide space on top of each other with the lcd 'floating' in front of it. Need access to machines : push the lcd up, play with the connections and then move the lcd back down. If I didn't already have nice expensive equipment I would consider these new things. No way am I going to replace my HP LA and LeCroy scope until they die or I need something better. Did I say HP? I meant Agilent (rhymes with flatulent). * Tracking #: F608311CE60A4643AEB61E65A09235671D880674 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Bizzare and Repeatable
Vincent: You want me to buy a lot of new stuff. I don't think it's my responsibility to single-handedly dig us out of the recession! ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: vincent mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Bizzare and Repeatable OK, so how many more apps are we going to devote an entire machine to? If I did this, there would be no room in my office for me! I already have 4 PCs (Linux server, 486 hackbox, W2K CADzilla, W95 print server) on/under my desk, 2 printers, and the usual test equipment (LA, scope, PS, etc.)! And they are all used each day. The areas under and behind my desk look like the aftermath of an explosion at a wire factory! point taken and for small companies this is a problem . if i look around here we have dedicated computers for almost anything : Dedicated Sun Ultrasparcs to run Synopsys on , dedicated Ultrasparcs to run digital layout dedicated ultrasparcs to run analog layout , dedicated pc server to run mathlab , dedicated fileservers , dedicated printservers , dedicated machine to run simulations , dedicated CAD stations , and then everyone's desktop PC runs all the other junk ( office , internet, email, proect, etc ). And guess which machines i have most trouble with ? The desktop machine that barf up all the time all over the place because of 500 things running at the same time. The others very rarely get into trouble , and if they do its a hardware problem ( disk , mouse keyboard monitor ) or a true bug in the software and not something cause by another program interfering.with another Since you are really cramped from what i can make out r : Here is my optimisation : ( this is what i actually do in our cramped 2500 square feet lab ) Dump the w95 print server and use a networkable printer or a printserver box like made by netgear or use the linux box to serve the printers. Cadzilla can run protel. the hackpc remains the hackpc. ( everyone needs a pc with wires soldered on the motherboard , believe me , i do this all the time in the lab. NO joke ! ) Use the linuxbox to surf the web. Use a KVM switch ( there are KVM's thatr can be controlled from the keyboard these days by hitting scroll lock twice followed by the number of the port you want to connect ) and get yourself a nice 18 inch LCD an a pendulum arm so you can move it out of the way when not needed. Get a wireless mouse and keyboard ( no more cables ) Get slim tower cases and bolt them on a bearing mounted tray underneath the desk. They are out of the way and you can wheel them out when you need access to them. For the testequipment:. HP makes a real neat USB connected logic analyser. Or get one of their Infiniium MegaZoom machines. Tenma makes a very compact 3 channel power supply , function generator , multimeter and frequency counter in one box. You can stash all test equipment on a 19 inch wide space on top of each other with the lcd 'floating' in front of it. Need access to machines : push the lcd up, play with the connections and then move the lcd back down. The PC's are hanging underneath the table in the same spot. that leaves the rest of the desk area wide open for whatever board you are working on. The only machnine still on the desktop is the 'hack-pc' This is of course an enormous investment and for small labs it might be chaper to jst add another wing to it. I refuse to devote an entire machine to CAD only. If that's the way CAD software is designed, then to hell with it - that's poor design. unfortunately that is the way 99 % of the software is designed ( not only cad software) . very few software vendors test the behaviour of their tool to when running togetehr with other programs. , and this is an impossible task to begin with you would have to try all versions all combination of any existing program. The problem is the Os's are leaky and intermingle applications. And that DOES include Unix and Linux If we would be able to have virtual machines running that can not intermingle then a lot of problems would disappear. Again : It is sad to have to dedicate machines to one application , but until everybody starts writing clean applications that is what we have to do. For what it's worth, Protel 99SE running on W2K works pretty well, no resource limitations like in W9X. Just don't switch the focus while 99SE is loading! And don't select a non-existent network printer! yep . the non existent printer. And who's fault is that ? protel ? No ! Windows ! . Windows should not report non existing printer to protel. ive seen other programs report non existing printers.) , or have a hndler that dumps the printout to the bit-bucket and tells you to try again to an existing printer this time.
Re: [PEDA] SCSI v IDE IBM Deathstars (was Protel vs. DirectCD)
i have never had an IDE die (knock on wood) My experience also. at one point i got a scsi scanner (HP) it wouldn't run on my scsi system (built by MICRON for $5K) it insisted on ONLY running on the crappy scsi controller they packaged with it after plugging that in i got it running, but there were still issues ... My experience also. I had to replace the el-crappo (8-bit ISA) SCSI card with another el-crappo one when the first one died. That was for a circa 1993 UMAX Vista T-630 scanner (bulky by today's standard, but it still works and produces beautiful results). Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] SCSI v IDE IBM Deathstars (was Protel vs. DirectCD) without disputing any of your assertions which may be entirely correct, my personal experience has been different every scsi drive i ever had died on me (4 or 5 of them, different eras and makers) i have never had an IDE die (knock on wood) also there is another layer to scsi which has given me trouble, the controller/driver layer which are more complex than IDE on various systems at various times with various controllers sometimes it was a hope and a prayer that it would boot on first try at one point i got a scsi scanner (HP) it wouldn't run on my scsi system (built by MICRON for $5K) it insisted on ONLY running on the crappy scsi controller they packaged with it after plugging that in i got it running, but there were still issues ... scsi did allow me to pile a bunch of drives in one box achieving more storage than i otherwise could have gotten, but that is all moot now for many (most?) of us Dennis Saputelli * Tracking #: 23988BA856F0CF469FE8CD96DBFA1C7EBAFFAE6A * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Dxp forum
Probahly my last posting on here because there are no new issues here Don't trip on the pile of dead hard drives buggy video cards, or the wheel mouse cords, or slip on the coaster CDs, on your way out! ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Michael Reagan (EDSI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 10:51 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Dxp forum This forum has really gone downhill I think its time to bail this forum and see what is happening in the DXP forum. Can anyone post the link for the DXP forum Frankly Im tired of hearing , My protel doesnt work with SCSI, or cd rom , or doesnt run nwhen I listen to nSync in the backround on my Linux system Probahly my last posting on here because there are no new issues here Mike Reagan EDSI * Tracking #: B613DACD1BAE614C8AAB58EC8200A129BD127FBC * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP
Yea. I've pondered that one myself... I know an amazing math wiz in Hawaii that's pro-open source. Our Mid-west FAE wrote one in college for chip routing... Suggest it to him. Also, tell him he should release under the GPL license. The GPL would allow others to build upon his work, but they would be required to release their enhancements back into the open source project. The BSD license, on the other hand, allows for-profit companies to take but not give. I have heard that M$ uses modified BSD TCP/IP in Windows (I don't know if it's true). M$ certainly hasn't given anything back to open-source! As a starting point, you might suggest he make OSCAR (Open SourCe AutoRouter) work with Protel 99SE (not DXP). I have heard that there is a OSS EDA suite in the works (gnuEDA, or something like that) but last I looked, I couldn't find anything real tangible. Having known stable EDA software (or as close as 99SE comes) would be better to test with than some incomplete, buggy experimental EDA stuff. If anyone still has a Protel 99SE demo CD, maybe he could use that to test OSCAR with. What's in it for him? Fame, lots of good will, possibly celebrity status (among nerds, not the general populace). Sorry we can't offer lots of money and hot chicks! Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP Yea. I've pondered that one myself... I know an amazing math wiz in Hawaii that's pro-open source. Our Mid-west FAE wrote one in college for chip routing... In a message dated 8/20/2002 12:54:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, techsupport@bagotronix. Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Wamnet Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Bagotronix Tech Support -- Chronological -- -- Thread -- 004601c2492f$e9594ef0$0501a8c0@ivanw2k"> Reply via email to Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Wamnet Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Bagotronix Tech Support -- Chronological -- -- Thread -- 004601c2492f$e9594ef0$0501a8c0@ivanw2k"> Reply via email to Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Bagotronix Tech Support -- Chronological -- -- Thread -- 004601c2492f$e9594ef0$0501a8c0@ivanw2k"> Reply via email to Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Bagotronix Tech Support -- Chronological -- -- Thread -- 004601c2492f$e9594ef0$0501a8c0@ivanw2k"> Reply via email to Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Bagotronix Tech Support -- Chronological -- -- Thread -- 004601c2492f$e9594ef0$0501a8c0@ivanw2k"> Reply via email to Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Bagotronix Tech Support -- Chronological -- -- Thread -- 004601c2492f$e9594ef0$0501a8c0@ivanw2k"> Reply via email to Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Bagotronix Tech Support -- Chronological -- -- Thread -- 004601c2492f$e9594ef0$0501a8c0@ivanw2k"> Reply via email to Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Bagotronix Tech Support -- Chronological -- -- Thread -- 004601c2492f$e9594ef0$0501a8c0@ivanw2k"> Reply via email to Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP, Bagotronix Tech Support Chronological -- Thread -- 004601c2492f$e9594ef0$0501a8c0@ivanw2k"> Reply via email to <!-- google_ad_client = "pub-7266757337600734"; google_alternate_ad_url = "http://www.mail-archive.com/blank.png"; google_ad_width = 160; google_ad_height = 600; google_ad_format = "160x600_as"; google_ad_channel = "3243237953"; google_color_border = "CE9689"; google_color_bg = ["FF","ECE5DF"]; google_color_link = "006792"; google_color_url = "006792"; google_color_text = "00"; //--> [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP Matt Daggett Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP Jason Morgan Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP Rob Young Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP Bagotronix Tech Support Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP Dennis Saputelli Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP Sam Cox Jr. Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP Wamnet Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP Bagotronix Tech Support Reply via email to
Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP
If this is the best that a trained Situs user can produce, I am not impressed at all. I wonder what the yields of these designs would be in a real production environment. Situs - sounds like Klytus, the evil henchman of Ming the Merciless in the Flash Gordon fiction. Well, I consider myself a trained 99SE AR user, and from your description it sounds like the improvements are marginal at best. In the meanwhile, I have some tips to help us use the 99SE AR: 1) It's best to manually route power and ground pads to the planes. If you let the AR do it, it will make the tracks too long and meander them, giving too much ground bounce and other nasty effects. 2) Don't select Fan out SMD pads in the AR, because if you have manually routed the power and ground pads, the AR will still put in redundant routes to it's own vias for a plane connection. Dumb! 3) Route any critical traces yourself, i.e. clock lines, strobes, analog and power signals, etc. 4) You WILL have to clean and tweak the results, get used to it. Too bad some geometry math geek doesn't sit down and write a good open-source autorouter. Is there just one company in the world that writes stand-alone autorouters (Specctra)? I sure don't hear about any others. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] to DXP or not to DXP Unified libraries... I expect the list will go on... I must try out the new autorouter some time. I admit I have only tried the autorouter with minimal training with disastrous results but I thought that was probably my ignorance in setting it up properly. I then went to load the demo boards that came with DXP and viewed the surface mount designs autorouted by Altium to see what someone who knows how to use Situs could produce. Rather than describe what I found, I will just point to a few areas out of several: Project: C:\Program Files\Altium\Examples\PCB Auto-Routing\PCB Auto-Routing.PrjPCB 1. GND routing on bottom layer between R288 R31 2. VDD routing on bottom layer at C140 3. 8 layers and no power planes? 4. GND routing near U2 pin 34 5. U94 pin 27 takes an unnecessarily long path to it's destination. 6. VDD routing near C60 7. Numerous acid traps throughout the design. Project: C:\Program Files\Altium\Examples\PCB Benchmark\PCB Benchmark.pcbdoc 8. routing of R435 pin 2 9. routing of U16 pins 38 40 to R336 pin 2. 10. U59 pin 13 pin 12. In general PCB Benchmark.pcbdoc is better than the PCB Auto-Routing.PrjPCB but there are still several areas that need improvement. If this is the best that a trained Situs user can produce, I am not impressed at all. I wonder what the yields of these designs would be in a real production environment. Rob - Rob Young Design Engineering Consultant Tel: 352-799-7977 Fax: 352-799-8977 [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Tracking #: 1938B49BA6D51A4B99F98FD0284F1964BAA433AE * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] PCs WAS: Protel 99SE on Windows XP
Yea it is my only Compaq, and maybe my last. Compaq may be smarter than the rest of the industryThey have built hardware speciifially to run a specific OS. Sounds like an Apple Computer doesnt it? Making crappy proprietary hardware, becoming reviled in the industry for poor quality, reliability, and support, having several consecutive quarters of losses, and then getting merged into a competitor doesn't fit my definition of smart. I'm no fan of Apple, but the only thing they ever had in common with Compaq was having several consecutive quarters of losses. Interestingly, I have heard that Compaq is highly regarded for their professional lines of computers (servers, prof desktops, etc.). It's the Presario and other consumer lines that have given them the bad reputation. I guess they figured that the consumer doesn't need a reliable machine, only the pros do. What a big PR policy mistake! For every IT manager saying how good Compaq is, there are hundreds or thousands of consumers that can badmouth Compaq. I have been buying only locally-built white box PCs for my business and home use for over 4 years now. All of them have performed up to expectations, none have needed repair, and some have been upgraded with standard parts. I couldn't be happier with them. Besides, I can customize them with stuff you can't get from the big brands: removable IDE drive bays, PCMCIA slots, dual-monitor video cards, etc. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Michael Reagan (EDSI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel 99SE on Windows XP Ivan wrote I hope that one Compaq is the only one you ever bought. I had one some years ago (PII-266) and it was absolute junk. Yes, Compaq does make proprietary version of Windows for their PCs. How smart is that - a proprietary version of a proprietary OS? Yea it is my only Compaq, and maybe my last. Compaq may be smarter than the rest of the industryThey have built hardware speciifially to run a specific OS. Sounds like an Apple Computer doesnt it? Mike * Tracking #: 070AEE056874FF43B7D6247368AFB4F6A881F2F8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Linux and Protel
What this ultimately means is that most companies will likely stop developing drivers for Win2K, WinNT (and Win9X) for new hardware, and only develop for WinXP. Even though Win2K may still be in heavy use. So, if/when you want to upgrade to some improved hardware you may find that you have no choice but to move to WinXP just for the driver support. Not developing drivers for Win9X/NT/2K will be a big loss of opportunity for at least 4-5 years. There are hundreds of million of PCs out there with these OSs on them. Most will still be in service for the next 4-5 years. And, by assisting with the so called Digital Rights Management developments he may also be driving a nail in the Open Source coffin for Linux, since it is impossible for an Open Source OS to truly be written so that DRM could not be removed by an end user. That coupled with his patents for the secured PC may make it virtually impossible for any competing OS to exist if the secured PC catches on. I don't disagree with your statement. But if this were to happen, it would be suicide for the U.S. tech industry. We would instantly become uncompetitive with other countries around the world. Other governments are moving to Open Source, not away from it, and would forbid the sale and use of software that is so closed. I suspect there is too much Linux usage in IT for this to happen. IBM is into Linux big-time. You think they are going to allow Linux to be marginalized or outlawed by some stupid legislation? - think again. The only way the secured PC will catch on is if M$ does a good job of keeping the DRM secret until a big installed base is out there, and lying about the benefits of DRM to consumers. I'm sure they will do this, so it's up to us nerds to inform those non-nerds we know of the dangers when they come. Notes to Altium: 1) You do not need to make Protel run only on secured PC 2) Your license key number and floating license schemes offer adequate protection already 3) In case you are thinking of building secured PC support into future versions of Protel, see lines 1 and 2 I've been moving most everything else that I do over to Linux, and I only have a couple of actual M$oft based apps that I still don't have a good alternative to, but that will change over the next year or so. But it is more difficult in some environments to move to Linux. I salute you, sir. I wish I was that far along in my change-over from M$ to Linux. We use Linux for the LAN server, but still run Win9X/2K for workstations :-( If you love XP and M$oft that's great, if not then be sure that you have an effective equipment spares inventory, including software, going forward. As far as security updates for M$oft OS's, you can skirt a number of the issues by making sure that your EDA machine doesn't have direct access to the Internet, as was described earlier by another user. We've got plenty of spares - it's called old computer junk. Around here, old computers (almost) never die - they just get upgraded, cannibalized, or re-tasked. The only computer I ever got rid of before it's time was a piece of crap Compaq Presario (PII-266). Never again did I buy a Compaq. We have several Frankenstein PC's around the office that are made from parts of other PCs. I should glue some bolts to the side of the case and paint it green, that would make the image complete. Yes, I am entirely to blame for the tech recession ;-) The PC industry was expecting me to replace all my PCs in early 2000. I didn't, so the tech stocks took a big dive. When I didn't sign up for broadband in 2000, the telecom stocks took a dive. The techs and telecoms then set their sights on 2001, ever hopeful that would be the year for me. When they saw that all I bought was one new PC that year, and still didn't sign up for broadband, their stocks went down even more. Now they say they think my spending will pick up in the second half of 2002. Well, I did sign up for broadband this year, but evidently it was too little too late for Worldcom and Global Crossing. And I still have not bought any new PCs in 2002, and probably won't. So it looks like it's going to be a long recession. I'm so sorry, it's all my fault... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Linux and Protel WAS: Spoofed email address * Tracking #: 94ABFE6682EE7D4EA19F1345C471EE0DC1308F8D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules
Re: [PEDA] Protel 99SE on Windows XP
Mike: I hope that one Compaq is the only one you ever bought. I had one some years ago (PII-266) and it was absolute junk. Yes, Compaq does make proprietary version of Windows for their PCs. How smart is that - a proprietary version of a proprietary OS? Compaq does everything they can to be proprietary, while masquerading as standard. For example, the disk drive bays frequently need special brackets, power supply connectors are non-standard, cases are non-standard, etc. Now that they are owned by HP, I hope HP will bring them up, instead of Compaq bringing HP down. You should resign yourself to the fact that Compaq will only ever run the OS from the disks it came with. Better save those disks! I have heard that Linux can be run on SOME of the Compaq models, if you want to try that. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Michael Reagan (EDSI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel 99SE on Windows XP Charlie, I ran 99se on XP for a while. It really didn't run any better than running on W98. I eventually had to uninstall XP and reload W 98 after experiencing 3 fatal crashes.These weren't Protel related. XP did everything wrong, it crashed, banged my harddrive until I found out how to stop it, it would loose internet, and network connections, and lost my USP port three times, I'm convinced that my Compaq was molded to run a Compaq version of W98 and attempting to run any other operation system is fruitless, so I ll hold on to W98/ 99SE combo for another year since I'm not ready to buy a new computer every year.Next year I will re-evaluate all of the new design software out there Protel and competition included.I just got my stock statement today, my Protel stock has dropped to 70 cents US.That doesn't say much Mike Reagan EDSI * Tracking #: E41C7F4542DFD242A8554C1F21E1D464A26EB69C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT: Spoofed email address (was: (Un)subscribe!!!)
Glad to know AOL isn't part of the problem! Yes, it can be a pain when you are away from home, but the spammers are drowning us in garbage. Yeah, we get tons of spam too. No, we don't use AOL, MSN, hotmail, or any of the notorious spam magnets. Typically 50 - 90% of the e-mail to our sales e-mail box is spam. We get lots of spam faxes too. The spammers must be profiling me as a middle-aged transexual who: wants to enlarge my breasts AND male parts, wants to look younger, is overweight, likes to participate in pyramid schemes, needs a cheap vacation, needs to re-finance my mortgage, has a vitamin deficiency, and is always out of inkjet and toner. I really wonder how much longer it will be until e-mail becomes useless because the signal to noise ratio gets too low. If it takes me 2 seconds to recognize and delete each spam, then 300 spams take 10 minutes to delete. That's assuming the spams are not intrusive, forcing pop-up browser windows to open. One spam I received earlier this week was for a porn site. It was the most penetrating e-mail I have ever seen (no pun intended). Not only did it immediately put a naughty picture in my OE reader window, it opened an IE window and put a naughty website on that. When I closed that IE window, another popped up. When I closed THAT window, ANOTHER popped up. Once more, then the 4th window took up the entire screen (no taskbar). I had to CTRL-ALT-DEL and kill all the IE processes to get back control of my PC. A Win9X user would have had to reboot their PC. All of this happened EVEN THOUGH I use Mozilla as my default browser. I didn't bother to examine the HTML source of the offending spam, but it probably used some kind of Javascript to start IE. Because M$ OS come with IE and you cannot remove it, this gives evil spammers a guaranteed way to force you to look at their website. People (M$ and the spammers) should be going to jail for this, but they're not. I have been trying to use Mozilla for e-mail also, but it seems to have a bug that crashes when trying to import large message folders from OE. So I am stuck with OE for now. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Jon Elson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Spoofed email address (was: (Un)subscribe!!!) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain) Encoding: 7bit I've wondered how one goes about spoofing the from address, since that's such a common tactic for spam and other undesirable mail. My sister just got an email with a virus the other day, and the return address claimed it was from me. I haven't seen any way within AOL to monkey with the return address - is this just an AOL restriction? Most unix and unix-like systems allow the user to put anything in the from field, by default. It is AMAZING that most of these systems have not been restricted to allowing only known users, or known source addresses to have access to the SMTP server. Many HUGE ISPs at least until recently, allowed anyone to send mail messages into them for relaying to unsuspecting 3rd parties. Since the Klez worm EXTENSIVELY exploits this feature, I suspect that many of these big holes will be plugged. I complained about this at our departmental server for a year before they found it necessary to restrict it. Glad to know AOL isn't part of the problem! Yes, it can be a pain when you are away from home, but the spammers are drowning us in garbage. Jon * Tracking #: C2DBEAAF53D8CD44869AFCC7E1FB05D29E1FC859 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT: Spoofed email address (was: (Un)subscribe!!!)
And your twin sister too! ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT: Spoofed email address (was: (Un)subscribe!!!) Ivan, according to your profile, you must be my long lost, hereto unknown, twin brother! 8^ Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 8:59 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT: Spoofed email address (was: (Un)subscribe!!!) The spammers must be profiling me as a middle-aged transexual who: wants to enlarge my breasts AND male parts, wants to look younger, is overweight, likes to participate in pyramid schemes, needs a cheap vacation, needs to re-finance my mortgage, has a vitamin deficiency, and is always out of inkjet and toner. * Tracking #: 554499CA8CFD6445B58A94D6C371A144790DAEB4 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT: Spoofed email address (was: (Un)subscribe!!!)
I used Eudora for a while when I first got online back in the mid-90's. That was back in Win3.1 days. I'm a cheapskate, and don't want to pay for e-mail software such as Eudora. Also, any e-mail software that I might switch to must be supported under Windows and Linux, because I am trying to phase M$ out. Mozilla is a great browser. It has 2 features I really love: the ability to prevent pop-ups, and tabbed browser windows. I will probably just wait until they fix the import OE folder crash bug, then switch e-mail from OE to Mozilla. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Frank Gilley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT: Spoofed email address (was: (Un)subscribe!!!) At 11:58 AM 8/15/2002 -0400, Ivan Baggett wrote: I have been trying to use Mozilla for e-mail also, but it seems to have a bug that crashes when trying to import large message folders from OE. So I am stuck with OE for now. Ever thought about using Eudora for your email? Frank Gilley Dell-Star Technologies (918) 838-1973 Phone (918) 838-8814 Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dellstar.com * Tracking #: C2DD06C46EE6644192356E571BB7D5F8C1570FE6 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Linux and Protel WAS: Spoofed email address
Also, any e-mail software that I might switch to must be supported under Windows and Linux, because I am trying to phase M$ out. Very ambitious plan. About when do you expect to have M$ phased out of your company? ;) When W2K is no longer sold or supported. At that time, we would either have to use XP (or Longhorn, or whatever M$ calls it by then) or switch to Linux for any new PC installations. The licensing terms, WPA, and EULAs for XP and later M$ products are simply absurd. I am not opposed in principle to time-limited software licensing. But the terms and price of it are ludicrous. The OS should be a commodity item, and priced accordingly. Same with office suites. Everyone uses them. Not so much with EDA. I think a price of $30-40 for the OS, and $30-40 for office suite is fair. That's for unlimited-time use. If they wanted to time-lease OS and office suite for $10 per year, I would consider that fair too. At those prices, free software (aka Liinux) would be not nearly as popular. So M$'s greed is their own worst enemy. If you don't like what M$ is doing, you better start foraging for alternatives to the M$ universe now, because it will take a long while to lessen your dependence on them. If you (the public, not Frank) love M$, then keep using XP. You remind me of the Animal House movie, where the Omega house pledges are undergoing initiation hazing. The scene where Neidermyer spanks a pledge who then says Thank you, sir! May I have another? Imagine you are the pledge, you've just paid your dues (Software Assurance subscription), and Bill Gates is giving you the spanking. I too would like to see Altium put effort into a Linux version of Protel. 3-4 years from now, I will probably be replacing this PC. Since I don't want XP, and won't likely be able to get W2K, I will probably have to run Linux on it. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Frank Gilley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT: Spoofed email address (was: (Un)subscribe!!!) Ivan, I understand about the payingparticularly since Eudora has moved to a new license scheme where your money only pays for the software for one year, I believe. However, even in free Sponsored mode with ads the ad box is pretty small, and can be docked in one corner under the mailbox list where there is always blank space anyway. The least obtrusive ad box I have experienced. (And I hate ads with a passion) Also, any e-mail software that I might switch to must be supported under Windows and Linux, because I am trying to phase M$ out. Very ambitious plan. About when do you expect to have M$ phased out of your company? ;) I am a very big Linux fan, although I don't mess with it much anymore. I can't wait until someday comes and I can use Linux for everything and M$ for just a couple of legacy apps. Frank Gilley Dell-Star Technologies (918) 838-1973 Phone (918) 838-8814 Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dellstar.com * Tracking #: 3CC8B60BE6885D42B3C48858D58FC58A16B22715 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Linux and Protel WAS: Spoofed email address
Don't you need a Mac to run OS-X on? I'm not interested in Macs. Art services drive me crazy with their incompatible Apple file formats. Every time I get some ad art done, I can't even open it on my own PC. Besides, I can't stand those goofy cases some of the Mac models use. I take it that OS-X could not run Protel through some kind of emulator (i.e. Wine)? I might like OS-X, just as long as the Darwin kernel doesn't require me to believe I evolved from a monkey before it will boot ;-) Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Matt Daggett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Linux and Protel WAS: Spoofed email address There is always OS-X for you Unix fans. I have found the Darwin Kernel (BSD based) to be very stable... now if they could only get the driver and application support there it'd be great. Also if anyone is thinking about installing Win2K SP3 better real the EULA very closely. I basically gives Bill the ability to remotely install/remove applications/drivers. M$ apparently is on the same path as our govt in playing Big Brother and eliminating our civil rights. /rant * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Tracking #: 5638279A9B750E4A9BE7FE874266863A530D12C4 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Unsubscribe!!!
Gareth: If you really have 99SE running on Linux, don't unsubscribe! Stay subscribed so you can keep us updated on how it goes. Lists aren't just for gimme, gimme, gimme, you should give some too. If you can't stand the flame wars, just delete the messages without reading them. Works for me. Besides, you might miss some of my humorous writings... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Gareth Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 1:38 PM Subject: [PEDA] Unsubscribe!!! Hi, This is a great mailing list - /If/ you need help with Protel. I however, do not. It works fine for me. I can run it through Linux (Via XWine P.S. Linux cannot write to NTFS but will Read) and Win 2000. I have tried to unsubscribe and cannot! I have even mailed the Administrator - no answer. Please unsubscribe me! Thankyou Gareth * Tracking #: D604E6CC03841741B42280190E5A555E5250AE03 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] (Un)subscribe!!!
Oops, I hope the (un)subcriber automaton doesn't think I want to (un)subscribe just because I replied to a subject line that had (un)subscribe in it. Keep me in here! Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Gareth Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 1:38 PM Subject: [PEDA] Unsubscribe!!! Hi, This is a great mailing list - /If/ you need help with Protel. I however, do not. It works fine for me. I can run it through Linux (Via XWine P.S. Linux cannot write to NTFS but will Read) and Win 2000. I have tried to unsubscribe and cannot! I have even mailed the Administrator - no answer. Please unsubscribe me! Thankyou Gareth * Tracking #: D604E6CC03841741B42280190E5A555E5250AE03 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Spoofed email address (was: (Un)subscribe!!!)
You need to make sure YOU don't have a virus. Some of these viruses can rifle through your address book and send e-mails without you knowing about it. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Spoofed email address (was: (Un)subscribe!!!) In a message dated 8/14/2002 3:10:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (But it is usually not difficult to spoof the original address unless your internet access locks such mail out -- Verizon, for example, requires all mail to be shown as coming from a Verizon domain, a real nuisance if one has an independent domain hosted elsewhere. I have Verizon wideband internet, cheap, but my domain server at addr.com does allow SMTP mail to be sent through it after log-in verification by checking the incoming mail, which is how I'm managing to send lomaxdesign.com mail with Verizon access. I'm not using the Verizon mail server.) I've wondered how one goes about spoofing the from address, since that's such a common tactic for spam and other undesirable mail. My sister just got an email with a virus the other day, and the return address claimed it was from me. I haven't seen any way within AOL to monkey with the return address - is this just an AOL restriction? Steve Hendrix * Tracking #: BB7CAE972AC7CF4BA3B4D3B3974621BBACC3906F * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Philips Wave and Reflow Footprints(Ex:IPC Footprint St andards)
$900 !!! Wow!!! (new subscriber price) That's 2 car payments, or 400+ McDonalds' 1/4-pounders, or 1800 movie tickets to the local bargain afternoon matinee theater. Just for some SMT footprints! Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Westfeldt, Pat [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Philips Wave and Reflow Footprints(Ex:IPC Footprint St andards) Perhaps a dumb question, but is there a way to access SMT Plus footprints without paying the big bucks they quote on the website? Patrick Westfeldt, Jr. voices: 303 939 5087 FAX 303 939 5550 720 406 0887 cell 720 272 5822 emails: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Tracking #: 4402018415507245855B66947E546E3155C8636F * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Philips Wave and Reflow Footprints(Ex:IPC Footprint St andards)
This, Annual Subscription Pricing, from their website: 3) Own 10th or older (book or LPMS software) or new customer $895.00 Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Brad Velander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Philips Wave and Reflow Footprints(Ex:IPC Footprint St andards) $900 I just checked the website and the 3 license version is only $695. What are you guys reading? LPMS Software 2002 Edition LPMS, Single User Version (Permits 3 users max, 1 at a time) $695.00 It has definitely gone up in the last few years, we paid approx. $450 - $475 a number of years ago. Sincerely, Brad Velander. Lead PCB Designer Norsat International Inc. Microwave Products Tel (604) 292-9089 (direct line) Fax (604) 292-9010 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.norsat.com -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 9:42 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Philips Wave and Reflow Footprints(Ex:IPC Footprint St andards) $900 !!! Wow!!! (new subscriber price) That's 2 car payments, or 400+ McDonalds' 1/4-pounders, or 1800 movie tickets to the local bargain afternoon matinee theater. Just for some SMT footprints! Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * Tracking #: 5A1078CDFFAB604DA9B67700B859BF6E4B1F4879 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] DXP Newsgroup
Why don't they watch where the DXP message traffic is (here)? Instead of where they wish it was (there)? Seriously, I don't have time to register for all the variant lists that some may propose, i.e. the list of all Protel 99SE users who never owned v2.8, are thinking about upgrading to DXP, but don't like ATS, have green skin and pink eyes, ingrown left foot big toenails, and 6 fingers on each hand, etc. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] DXP Newsgroup As far as I know this has not been designated a 'non-dxp' area :) :) But seriously, I know the support people at Protel and my local VAR watch this forum as well, and of course, they are more than capable of responding here, if they wished too. I did not say it was. I was just stating my opinion that it would better serve you to ask over there since I have seen a lot more responses from Altium over there. It appears to me that the developers (as opposed to support people) of DXP are watching the DXPTech Forum, when I see no evidence that the developers are watching this forum. I find results come quicker the fewer levels between you and the guy making the change. Robert D. LaMoreaux MTS Systems Corp. Powertrain technology Division 4622 Runway Blvd. Ann Arbor, MI 48108 734-822-9696 Fax 734-973-1103 Main Desk 734-973- * Tracking #: 089C61FEC071D7439F8E526BA8E243FB382F2A13 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT Office WAS: Protel 99 se SP4 on Windows XP Home
Office XP, no way! OpenOffice is pretty good, and is free. StarOffice is the same thing, but costs (way less than Office) and has a database program. We use Office 2000 and it is the last Office version we will be using. Likewise W2K is our last M$ OS. I don't really have too many gripes about it, but I am trying to break the M$ stranglehold. It's not healthy to be so dependent on one company's products. You might argue that one is dependent on many companies for one particular product (such as a sole-source chip). But what if that chip company could do this: 1) discontinue the chip 2) raise the price for a replacement chip 3) make the new chip slightly incompatible with the former chip, forcing you to redesign some of your system hardware and software 4) make the new chip unable to talk to competitor's chips 5) make the new chip require the purchase of other support chips from the same company 6) stop supporting the old chip 7) deactivate all the old chips in existing systems in use in the field 8) deactivate itself once a year until a yearly maintenance fee is paid 9) report its system information and usage profiles to the company or any third party so designated by the company 10) automatically upgrade itself at request of the company, causing unpredictable failures and service outages 11) was the target of virus-writers and hackers worldwide 12) came with a EULA that absolved the company of all responsibility of any kind, and that EULA changes with each new patch or upgrade to bestow ever-increasing rights upon the company and ever-diminishing rights upon the user If a chip company did this, you wouldn't use their chips, would you? Note: some of the above may not apply to XPpro. Yet. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel 99 se SP4 on Windows XP Home Not identical! For some very odd reason, but Win2K system puked and when I tried to repair, replace, (your favorite) MS activity here) it would NOT come back to life. Yeah, even trying to re-install via the CD ended up with BSODs (blue screen of death). I whipped out my WinXPPro CD and installed that. Wow...looks great, runs great, installed on a machine that Win2K refused to install on. (even though I had been running Win2K for that past couple years) Computers!!! Ag I like WinXPPro a lot. Office XP has also fixed up a bunch of little things that used to bug me. Tony -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:06 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel 99 se SP4 on Windows XP Home Get WinXP Pro. No activation thingy. Wait a sec, other than the graphics, it's identical to Win2K Pro, but double the price. You are right, Microsoft is a P___k. Brian Guralnick - Original Message - From: Bagotronix Tech Support [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel 99 se SP4 on Windows XP Home | Why is anybody bothering with a lousy piece of software like XP in | the | first | place? | | Well, it's not like you have a choice! When you go to buy any | packaged PC system, all you can get is Windows XP. You want W2K, too | bad! You want Linux, too bad! The only way to get a different OS on | your PC is to build your own PC from parts, or have one built by a | local PC shop. Or maybe you can wipe XP from a new PC and install W2K | or Linux. But you still have paid the Microsoft tax if your machine | came with XP. | | The Microsoft tax is alive and well despite all of the anti-trust | findings. Note that Micrsoft has been found to be a monopoly and that | some of its business practices have been found to be unfair. This is | a fact. It's just that nothing has been done about it - no remedy has | been enacted and enforced. I have absolutely zero confidence in the | gov't prosecution of Microsoft. | | DOJ: Bill, we find you guilty of maintaining your OS monopoly through | unfair business practices Bill G.: So? | DOJ: Oh, no problem, we just wanted to let you know. | | IMO, Microsoft is digging it's own grave faster than ever. The | activation in their new software is the shovel. I used to want the | gov't to stop Microsoft monopoly tactics, but now that Microsoft is | digging fast, I don't want someone telling them to slow down or use a | less effective shovel. | | FYI: I recently installed Suse 7.3 Linux on my home PC (dual boot | W98SE and Suse). It was an easy install except for the PnP ISA modem | which I had to configure manually. The Konquerer browser was well | integrated with multimedia apps (MP3 player, etc) in KDE desktop. | Printing is still not good under
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
As for market forces on software prices, I'm going to do my part. I'm done buying any new Microsoft OS's after Win2K (due to their licensing and privacy policies) and Altium (because of pricing/support/utility -per-dollar issues). So I guess I may only be one person, but I'm voting with my checkbook. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for better alternatives while using what works OK for me. Sure am glad this isn't rented software! ;-) You are not alone. As I have said before on this list, W2K and Office 2000 are the last Microsoft products I will be buying unless they scrap their new licensing policies and cut the prices. Likewise with future Protel versions; 99SE will be it. It's a shame, because in many ways W2K and Protel 99SE are excellent products. Further improvements on them would be a wonderful thing, but the new licensing and pricing is a killer. You can not only work with your checkbook, you can also evangelize others about the issues at stake. I have been warning friends and family about what is happening with software licensing, with mixed results. I get a lot of apathy. It will be that way until one day they turn on their PC and it says (names changed to protect the guilty): Your Winblows license has expired. For your convenience, we have your credit card information on file. So that we may continue to serve you, please click on 'OK' to renew your Winblows license. Your credit card will then be charged $199 for a one-year license renewal. If you click on 'cancel', you will be charged a one-time fee of $99 to cover processing costs of removing your computer information from the central license registration database. Should you decide to renew later, you will be charged an addtional $99 processing fee to add your computer information back to the central license registration database, in additon to the rate for a new license, which is currently $299. Should you desire to contest these charges, please recall in the End User's License Agreement that by using the software, you agreed to not use credit card chargeback procedures. Should you attempt to reclaim files from this computer's hard disk without first renewing your Winblows license, any .NYET-enabled files will report their being opened to the central license registration database, possibly leading to your prosecution under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act for felony charges of attempting to defeat software security measures. Thank you for using Macrohard products. OK, that was not a statement of fact, but a prediction of how it might go. In any case, it was fun to write. And it (or something like it) COULD happen. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Matt Pobursky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer * Tracking #: 4499897D6A9FF5499E903EFFE072FF71D3F4650C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
i think the time use model is a future certainty, UCITA already allows remote disabling of users software more or less at the vendor's will UCITA may allow it, but my buying policy does not allow it. If I buy a copy of software I should be able to use it as long as I want to. If a software company wants to lease (rent) software, they should explicitly call it by such standard commerce terms as lease or rent, and those terms should be used in the advertising literature Protel DXP, the EDA platform of the future, is here now! Lease your copy today!. Then, maybe I can make an informed decision as to whether or not to lease (rent) it. Otherwise, I am going to regard it as a time-unlimited use purchase, no matter what phony-baloney pseudo-legalese is in the EULA. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Dennis Saputelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer well, all that notwithstanding there are official numbers on such matters inflation index, consumer price index, and others they are all VERY low for many many years now (knock on wood), on the order a few percent remember the jimmy carter years? software has yet to find it's real price model, it will take quite a while as the value portion is ephemeral another relevant issue here is that pcb designers are not exactly an exploding market, there only needs to be so many of us and most everybody already has some software i think the time use model is a future certainty, UCITA already allows remote disabling of users software more or less at the vendor's will http://www.matrixlist.com/pipermail/leaplist/2000-March/003758.html solidworks has a pretty strong maintenance program, they guarantee something like 5 service packs a year which include enhancements as well as bug fixes they also allow stepping back so that a new SP which introduces new 'issues' (love that word) can be easily rolled back to the prior one if you let the maintenance ($1500/yr) expire then for a 100 bucks penalty (plus of course the $1500) you can reinstate the remaining portion of the year or for a $500 penalty you can reset the yearly clock they've got their revenue stream wired and (or is BUT ?? ) they have a great product this is all done through networks of local dealers who have people who actually know stuff and sell training i don't know if the dealers or anyone makes any real money at any of this but it seems that they might i think what protel really ought to do (seriously now) is open up a little service bureau and put one their people in it so that they can deal with and learn all of the real world requirements first hand Dennis Saputelli * Tracking #: A64420D5930AE34D9F358636A3B0516132E151F2 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] OT Metric vs Imperial
Whatever you do, IMO don't hide those power pins. To do so will only bite you later. I usually take the Protel SCH library part (CMOS, TTL, etc.) and copy it to my own library. Then I unhide the power pins. I show them on one of the multi-part parts. It does add to the clutter, but it helps prevent mistakes. When you give schematics to a tech, they need to see explicit power pin connections, otherwise they don't know where to probe. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] OT Metric vs Imperial I need some opinions/help. What is the best was to design the power pins (VCC, VEE, GND, etc) on a multi-part schematic symbol for, say, a hex inverter. Seems if they are hidden they can get missed, but if they stick out they clutter the schematic. -Shawn * Tracking #: 7EE15401909040488DE1A886F078BCB5E57A7F9C * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
The personal electronics industry is a freak among industries. You must agree with that? Well, it's a BIG freak, then. So big that it is regarded as the norm by anyone not in the industry. Even in your example lies cable modem service that has gone up and up. Tell me why? They say it's because it reflects the value of our service.' BS, it's because DSL went up and cable can go up to because there is no reason to hold it down. Area-specific example. It's not that way in Tallahassee, Florida (not yet anyway). I have been thinking of disconnecting my cable modem ($40/mo.) at home anyway. I probably will keep it until Comcast's first price hike. Then it's gone. One of my employees just got rid of their digital cable TV, they decided it was too expensive for what they were getting. I would discontinue my home phone if I didn't need it for security system monitoring - my cell phone plan makes land lines obsolete. How about gasoline? In California, they told us a few years ago the gas price was going to climb because of the expense of processing in the MTBE additive. Now they find out MTBE sucks, and it's going to cost more again to take it out! Why can't they just make the old gas, and give us the old pre-MTBE price? Because the market will bear it and the gov't won't step in to pull back the reigns. Another area-specific example. I cannot formulate my worldview based on what happens in California. One of my California-based customers says California is the land of fruits and nuts ;-) Of course, you guys probably thought us Floridians were crazy in the election 2000 fiasco... You see no excuse, but capitalism allows it to happen. Maybe if Castro was running the EDA s/w industry we'll all be using expresspcb and liking it. That was NOT nice. I don't appreciate having my opinions being associated with a Communist. I am a good Capitalist, I just don't bow before the idols of Wall Street, that's all. Remember, money is NOT the rool of all evil, but the LOVE of money IS the root of all evil. And there is much *love* on Wall Street and Pennsylvania Avenue these days... Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Tony Karavidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer * Tracking #: 00DD89E4140ADE48A8D44243B9A6BB38A291DAF2 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer! !!!
Exactly my point. Nothing can beat a PCB designer with 10 years experience. Computers are simply not smart and not adaptive enough. Most board tools are programmed by people that have never made a board in their life. And layout people wouldn't be caught dead writing programs. A number of us must be dead then. Dead men buy no EDA software... Or out of work. If you know any PCB designer who can program and who is out of work, encourage them to start/contribute to an open-source software SCH/PCB project. I would love to see some alternative to high-priced EDA software, which only gets more expensive with time, i.e. Microsoft and Altium products going up, up, and away. Isn't it crazy how hardware prices get ever lower and software prices keep going up? Openly-documented file formats would be so great. And target it to run on Linux. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Ian Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer! !!! On 09:20 AM 2/08/2002 -0400, vincent mail said: Exactly my point. Nothing can beat a PCB designer with 10 years experience. Computers are simply not smart and not adaptive enough. Most board tools are programmed by people that have never made a board in their life. And layout people wouldn't be caught dead writing programs. A number of us must be dead then. Ian * Tracking #: 52952B7FD340134486161618567E15917D5D1735 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
I wonder if the software can tell, during installation, which version you actually had and refuse to install if it's not the upgrade jump you paid for? IMO, I think it's a shady business practice to charge someone more for an upgrade just because they skipped a version. That's the same as forcing them to buy something they didn't want. They didn't get the use of those intermediate versions, so why should they pay for them? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer My distributor told me yesterday, that ATS was additional to the usual upgradeability. Meaning you can get DXP whenever you want. The price increases with the number of versions you're behind. Same as when you now upgrade a 2.8 to 99SE, which is more expensive than a 98 to a 99SE. Together with DXP you get ATS, whatever this for a year and you don't have to extend it when it expires. Rene * Tracking #: 2857B458C0132D458B08E51FD3E4EE5C0FAF5009 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Upgrade Pricing Ethics WAS: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
Yes, Rene, by definition, everything decided is a decision... However, some decisions are worse than others. This morning I decided whether to eat a bagel and grapefruit juice at home, or get a McDonald's biscuit and orange juice on the way to the office. I chose the McD biscuit. That was an OK decision. But if this morning I had decided to rob a bank instead of go to work at the office, that would have been a bad decision. I can imagine the excuses that Andersen, Enron, and Worldcom executives may be giving for their actions it was an executive decision. Well, duh, they were executives and they made decisions. VERY BAD ONES! I won't be basing my beliefs on what is fair by what Microsoft (or Altium) do. If I started operating my business that way, I would be out of business quickly (Thank you for your order. Oh, did I mention that your price just went up 100%? That's because we came out with Rev C of the board and you never bought any Rev B boards, just Rev A's. If you had bought some Rev B's, you new price for Rev C's would be only 50% higher.). Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Isn't it the other way round ? Having bought the last version you're regarded as 'good' customer and get a higher discount than another one that bought something 10 years back ? Anyway, it is a decision. Microsoft decided in the case of office software that there are those who have a service agreement ($$$) and all the others are new customers that always pay the full price. There is no obligation to offer a discount, really. Rene Bagotronix Tech Support wrote: I wonder if the software can tell, during installation, which version you actually had and refuse to install if it's not the upgrade jump you paid for? IMO, I think it's a shady business practice to charge someone more for an upgrade just because they skipped a version. That's the same as forcing them to buy something they didn't want. They didn't get the use of those intermediate versions, so why should they pay for them? Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer My distributor told me yesterday, that ATS was additional to the usual upgradeability. Meaning you can get DXP whenever you want. The price increases with the number of versions you're behind. Same as when you now upgrade a 2.8 to 99SE, which is more expensive than a 98 to a 99SE. Together with DXP you get ATS, whatever this for a year and you don't have to extend it when it expires. * Tracking #: CB2E41F6A57DBD46BF59EE97520A200D9FD607FC * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer!!!!
Rene: 1) Charging people the same amount for one big upgrade as all the missed upgrades 2) Forcing people buy each upgrade even if they don't want it 1 is functionally equivalent to 2. And vice versa. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] Re[2]: Not DXP or P99SE, but have you seen the Cadence offer Isn't it the other way round ? Having bought the last version you're regarded as 'good' customer and get a higher discount than another one that bought something 10 years back ? Anyway, it is a decision. Microsoft decided in the case of office software that there are those who have a service agreement ($$$) and all the others are new customers that always pay the full price. There is no obligation to offer a discount, really. Rene * Tracking #: 6CBA7FE244DF7A49B36B831DD87EBF122F7DBC11 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
