RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, Look at your second group of actions: give alms, refrain from drinking etc. They are boring. The first group: drinking, womanizing etc are a lot of fun. What makes you only do the second, not the first? If you say good zazen and good upbringing have to do it, that makes sense, especially for such a nice man like you. But that can be said that zazen and upbringing 'tell' you to do the second and prevent you from the first. As regards me, belief in karma, my upbringing and my surroundings 'tell' me to do the second. However, like I say, a little of the first is fun. I like drinking good wine and nice beer, but never killing, raping or the like. BTW, whether you do something all by yourself, or you are told by somebody or something to do, or not to do it, is the same, since there is 'no self''.. Anthony --- On Sat, 17/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 17 January, 2009, 9:40 AM Anthony, Actually a lot of people expect me to answer to them. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, but I don't feel obligated to do so. And I didn't say I always do the second group of actions (would that I did); I said I don't do any of the first group. I don't know why I don't do any of them, nor do I even want to do any of them. I like to think it has to do with zazen, but it probably also has a lot to do with my upbringing and my current situation which does not impose many pressures on me to take advantage of others or conform with such behavior in others. Now, I've answered a lot of your questions in recent posts. Please answer one of mine from my previous post: " Why do you (and Al) have to have someone or something else tell you what to do and be answerable to?" Thanks...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:02 PM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Nobody asks you to answer to them. If you always do the second group of actions, that is great. Can you tell me the secret why you are not tempted to switch to the first group once in a while? Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963. org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963. org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 5:52 PM Anthony, I believe the everything is haphazard (chaos - the original meaning) and we all are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn without - fear of retribution. We are also free to give alms, comfort and love, refrain from intoxicants and create wonders - without hope of reward. I don't do any of the first group and do a lot of the second group, all without having to answer to anyone. Why can't you? Why do you (and Al) have to have someone or something else tell you what to do and be answerable to? Don't you trust yourself? Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Zen_ fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:24 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Chris, There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn. Anthony Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, Actually a lot of people expect me to answer to them. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, but I don't feel obligated to do so. And I didn't say I always do the second group of actions (would that I did); I said I don't do any of the first group. I don't know why I don't do any of them, nor do I even want to do any of them. I like to think it has to do with zazen, but it probably also has a lot to do with my upbringing and my current situation which does not impose many pressures on me to take advantage of others or conform with such behavior in others. Now, I've answered a lot of your questions in recent posts. Please answer one of mine from my previous post: " Why do you (and Al) have to have someone or something else tell you what to do and be answerable to?" Thanks...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:02 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Nobody asks you to answer to them. If you always do the second group of actions, that is great. Can you tell me the secret why you are not tempted to switch to the first group once in a while? Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 5:52 PM Anthony, I believe the everything is haphazard (chaos - the original meaning) and we all are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn without - fear of retribution. We are also free to give alms, comfort and love, refrain from intoxicants and create wonders - without hope of reward. I don't do any of the first group and do a lot of the second group, all without having to answer to anyone. Why can't you? Why do you (and Al) have to have someone or something else tell you what to do and be answerable to? Don't you trust yourself? ...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:24 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Chris, There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn. Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, Nobody asks you to answer to them. If you always do the second group of actions, that is great. Can you tell me the secret why you are not tempted to switch to the first group once in a while? Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 5:52 PM Anthony, I believe the everything is haphazard (chaos - the original meaning) and we all are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn without - fear of retribution. We are also free to give alms, comfort and love, refrain from intoxicants and create wonders - without hope of reward. I don't do any of the first group and do a lot of the second group, all without having to answer to anyone. Why can't you? Why do you (and Al) have to have someone or something else tell you what to do and be answerable to? Don't you trust yourself? Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:24 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Chris, There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn. Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 wrote: From: cid830 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:52 AM I would like to help, Anthony. But I've got nothing. Science has theories. Some proven, some not. I would like to believe in karma. But I'm more inclined to believe in the randomness of the universe. I think JM can sync to it. We can experience it. But no one can truly explain the 'reasoning' behind it. Or the 'rules' that govern it. Does this make any sense? Thank You, Chris --- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > Rules No.4, 5, 6... waiting for somebody to fill in. _ _ _ _ Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com. __ NOD32 3770 (20090116) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Chris, Thank you too. I completely echoe your idea. However, I regret to say I don't see many mean people get what they deserve.. So I have to believe they will get it in their next lives. Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 wrote: From: cid830 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 2:15 PM Anthony, I respect your thoughts on this. As I said, I want to believe in karma. I do believe in the reincarnation of our life force. I think that many lives before me have brought me to this point, on the path to buddhahood. Perhaps to be experienced in this lifetime. I have done good to others and have been extremely blessed in return. I have witnessed mean people get what they 'deserve'. I relish in the thought that good (and bad) will be rewarded in the end. But this is my Ego. My "wants" are clouding my judgement. Only with my practice will I get true clarity on this subject, and I have a long way to go. How's that for anticipation? I plan to visit the temple for the first time in 5 years this weekend. Here's to getting back on the Path! Thank You. Chris --- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > > Chris, > Â > There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn. > Â > Anthony New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, I believe the everything is haphazard (chaos - the original meaning) and we all are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn without - fear of retribution. We are also free to give alms, comfort and love, refrain from intoxicants and create wonders - without hope of reward. I don't do any of the first group and do a lot of the second group, all without having to answer to anyone. Why can't you? Why do you (and Al) have to have someone or something else tell you what to do and be answerable to? Don't you trust yourself? ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:24 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Chris, There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn. Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 wrote: From: cid830 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:52 AM I would like to help, Anthony. But I've got nothing. Science has theories. Some proven, some not. I would like to believe in karma. But I'm more inclined to believe in the randomness of the universe. I think JM can sync to it. We can experience it. But no one can truly explain the 'reasoning' behind it. Or the 'rules' that govern it. Does this make any sense? Thank You, Chris --- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > Rules No.4, 5, 6... waiting for somebody to fill in. Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail..com. __ NOD32 3770 (20090116) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
"fitness4u2163" <> > Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- > baked knuckle-dragging pot-heads who think that smoking a blunt is > the way to nirvana. BTW. Who are you to judge another man's nirvana? There are many paths. Which one is right? Geeez, you're such a buzz-kill. Chris Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
"fitness4u2163" <> > Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- > baked knuckle-dragging pot-heads who think that smoking a blunt is > the way to nirvana. BTW. Who are you to judge another man's nirvana? There are many paths. Which one is right? Geeez, you're such a buzz-kill. Chris Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
"fitness4u2163" <> wrote: > Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- > baked knuckle-dragging pot-heads who think that smoking a blunt is > the way to nirvana.>>> Let's here it for generalizations! Denigrating other's beliefs and showing just how mis-guided they are makes me feel good about myself. If everyone was as smart as me, this world would be a much better place. I love exposing peoples ignorance, it makes me feel all good inside! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Hi Al, why do you say "unfortunately"? what do you have in mind? JM fitness4u2163 wrote: > > Jue Miao Jing Ming -In our school, karma is just a label for > any "energy that causes" Good or bad are just human interpretations > of the result after the fact. It is not a believe system or a reward > system. Just simple cause and effect in Chi terms. > > > > I can relate to that, because accountability is important to me and I > think it is the key to having a philosophy that is not totally > subjective bullshit. > > Unfortunately, you are in California, and I am here. I mean here (I > moved). > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, I respect your thoughts on this. As I said, I want to believe in karma. I do believe in the reincarnation of our life force. I think that many lives before me have brought me to this point, on the path to buddhahood. Perhaps to be experienced in this lifetime. I have done good to others and have been extremely blessed in return. I have witnessed mean people get what they 'deserve'. I relish in the thought that good (and bad) will be rewarded in the end. But this is my Ego. My "wants" are clouding my judgement. Only with my practice will I get true clarity on this subject, and I have a long way to go. How's that for anticipation? I plan to visit the temple for the first time in 5 years this weekend. Here's to getting back on the Path! Thank You. Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > > Chris, > Â > There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn. > Â > Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony Wu > Hell Yeah! And what we have in most zen groups is a bunch of half- baked knuckle-dragging pot-heads who think that smoking a blunt is the way to nirvana. HO HO HO Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Chris, There are strict rules governing material world, down to subatomic particles. I tend to believe the same applies to the spiritual world. It is not convincing that a personal god can set the rules. So the best theory is still with karma objectively. The problem is we only remember this one life. For karma to work out we need to go through more than one life. In other words, karma and rebirth go together. Otherwise, everything is haphazard, so we are free to kill, rob, rape, drink and burn. Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 wrote: From: cid830 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:52 AM I would like to help, Anthony. But I've got nothing. Science has theories. Some proven, some not. I would like to believe in karma. But I'm more inclined to believe in the randomness of the universe. I think JM can sync to it. We can experience it. But no one can truly explain the 'reasoning' behind it. Or the 'rules' that govern it. Does this make any sense? Thank You, Chris --- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > Rules No.4, 5, 6... waiting for somebody to fill in. Importing contacts has never been easier..Bring your friends over to Yahoo! Mail today! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-sg
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Physical pain was obvious. Whether mental was also present I don't know. Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, Edgar Owen wrote: From: Edgar Owen Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 8:22 AM Anthony, Was it mental suffering or physical pain? An important distinction is to be made. Edgar On Jan 15, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: Chris, I agree and believe practicing zen helps give up worries. However, not all anticipation is useless. I would like to bring up a big question here: how to respond to and/or avoid pain on the deathbed? Take for example the famous zen master Daisetzu Suzuki. Most agree he was a very advanced zen practitioner. At around 100 years of age, he went through a lot of suffering on his deathbed, which was recorded by his secretary and nurse ( I can't remember her name and the title of the article). I was very disappointed when I read that. Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 wrote: From: cid830 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 3:54 AM Edgar, I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL. My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his Buddha Nature. Anticipating or worrying about situations that may or may not actually occur is a sign that you are not engaged in your zen practice.. If you are not engaged in your practice, how can you expect to react to a situation with your Buddha Nature? This is one thing that led me to Zen. I used to worry and plan for situations that never happened. I used to run "what if" scenarios thru my head, to the point that it was driving me crazy. Zen practice helped me tremendously! Thanks again, Chris --- in zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Chris, > > I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in. > > Edgar New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Edgar, I believe direct experiences are real. These include sensory sensations and emotions. I believe intellectualizing creates illusions. This includes concepts and all discrimination (dualism). As far as a brick dropping on my foot I believe: - I don't know whether the brick is real or an illusion. The concept I have of bricks is an illusion. - The image I see of the brick (if I see it) is real. - The concept of cause-and-effect related to this 'event' is illusory. - The pain is real. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 8:11 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, There are illusions and there are illusions. The veils of illusion are multiple and myriad. Some are easy to penetrate, others impossible as they are artifacts of our existence in human form. I'm surprised that you accept anything as 'not illusion' based on past discussions, but if you accept pain then why not physical causality? If a brick drops on your foot, you accept that the pain it causes is real, but not that the brick dropping on your foot caused it? Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Edgar, First of all, I personally wouldn't use a samurai as an example of someone acting in accordance with Buddha Nature, but I know that is the idealized and romanticized mythos that is popular today. To answer your question: yes, a samurai (or anyone else) who prepares for a particular situation CAN act from Buddha Nature, however I'd think that would be more difficult to do than if he had NOT prepared in advance. But, it is not impossible if he acts with a clear mind (Buddha Nature). I think, however, you are not properly extending the zen component to your idealized samurai when you state that with preparation he could act more 'efficiently'. Efficiency implies a goal against which results of your actions can be measured. The idealized, enlightened zen-monk/samurai would not have a goal. He would practice his swordsmanship for the same reason I practice zazen: not to achieve a goal (like enlightenment or victory or maintaining honor), but because that is an expression of Buddha Nature. The outcome of that practice is not the point, it is just the practice. Just THIS! ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 10:45 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, The samurai prepares for such a situation in advance. Do you claim he can't then act from Buddha Nature when the time comes? Just the opposite, by preparing his body is tuned to act as it needs in the moment far more efficiently than if he had not trained. Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
I would like to help, Anthony. But I've got nothing. Science has theories. Some proven, some not. I would like to believe in karma. But I'm more inclined to believe in the randomness of the universe. I think JM can sync to it. We can experience it. But no one can truly explain the 'reasoning' behind it. Or the 'rules' that govern it. Does this make any sense? Thank You, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > Rules No.4, 5, 6... waiting for somebody to fill in. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Ahhh...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fitness4u2163 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 3:21 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > OUCH! > > What if you stick a porcupine in your narrow hole? __ NOD32 3768 (20090115) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, Was it mental suffering or physical pain? An important distinction is to be made. Edgar On Jan 15, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: Chris, I agree and believe practicing zen helps give up worries. However, not all anticipation is useless. I would like to bring up a big question here: how to respond to and/or avoid pain on the deathbed? Take for example the famous zen master Daisetzu Suzuki. Most agree he was a very advanced zen practitioner. At around 100 years of age, he went through a lot of suffering on his deathbed, which was recorded by his secretary and nurse ( I can't remember her name and the title of the article). I was very disappointed when I read that. Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 wrote: From: cid830 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 3:54 AM Edgar, I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL. My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his Buddha Nature. Anticipating or worrying about situations that may or may not actually occur is a sign that you are not engaged in your zen practice.. If you are not engaged in your practice, how can you expect to react to a situation with your Buddha Nature? This is one thing that led me to Zen. I used to worry and plan for situations that never happened. I used to run "what if" scenarios thru my head, to the point that it was driving me crazy. Zen practice helped me tremendously! Thanks again, Chris --- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Chris, > > I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in. > > Edgar New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does!
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Al, If you talk like that to a mahayana fan, he will be very upset. But it will be another thing, if you ask him to walk the talk. Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, fitness4u2163 wrote: From: fitness4u2163 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 4:11 AM Anthony Wu <> -Â A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog > That's not funny, that's sick. New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Chris, I agree and believe practicing zen helps give up worries. However, not all anticipation is useless. I would like to bring up a big question here: how to respond to and/or avoid pain on the deathbed? Take for example the famous zen master Daisetzu Suzuki. Most agree he was a very advanced zen practitioner. At around 100 years of age, he went through a lot of suffering on his deathbed, which was recorded by his secretary and nurse ( I can't remember her name and the title of the article). I was very disappointed when I read that. Anthony --- On Fri, 16/1/09, cid830 wrote: From: cid830 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 3:54 AM Edgar, I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL. My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his Buddha Nature. Anticipating or worrying about situations that may or may not actually occur is a sign that you are not engaged in your zen practice. If you are not engaged in your practice, how can you expect to react to a situation with your Buddha Nature? This is one thing that led me to Zen. I used to worry and plan for situations that never happened. I used to run "what if" scenarios thru my head, to the point that it was driving me crazy. Zen practice helped me tremendously! Thanks again, Chris --- In zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Chris, > > I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in. > > Edgar New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, I am satisfied with your answer regarding your possible reaction to violence. But not as concerns your statement that there is no rule in the world. I can give you some: Rule No.1: there are Newton's laws and all other nonsense in physics for the material world. Rule No.2: Bill reacts to violence aggressively, never passively. Rule No.3: when we are stabbed with a needle, we feel pain and cry 'ough'. Rules No.4, 5, 6... waiting for somebody to fill in. Anthony --- On Thu, 15/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 11:22 PM Anthony, I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What would you do if confronted with someone who was threatening your life?" I can absolutely truthfully say that I don't know what I'd do. If I knew what I would do then that means I would have thought it all out ahead of time, and then it would me Bill! acting and not Buddha Nature. I can tell you I would probably do what all animals due when confronted with danger: flight or fight. I would either try to get away - that could be by using persuasive talk or actually running away; or fight - that also could be with threatening talk or behavior, but could include physical assault. If what you are looking for is a definite statement that I would be passive and not commit violence, I can assure you that would not always be the case. Like responding to a koan, the answer depends on the entire moment: who's asking, what's the situation and what's my experience at that moment. I hope that response satisfies you. It satisfies me. Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. In my case: - If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death. - If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma. Understanding your action cannot be my template, I am still curious what your reaction is in that position 'at this moment when you are writing'. Don't worry about the next moment when you may react differently. I will be disappointed if you say you cannot answer because you only have 'just this' at the present. Anthony New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
You're funny! "fitness4u2163" <> wrote: >>>That is kind of limited. What happens when you get old and did not > save any money your entire life? What is Buddha Nature going to tell > you? Rob a bank? Pull a pension out of your ass?? Buddha Nature is > over-rated and I think that Zen needs to grow up and deal with the > reality that you cannot just react on the spot to every situation in > life...GET REAL Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Agreed, Edgar! That is why I doubt there were many samurai zen 'masters'. That is why few of us will ever truly realize our Buddha Nature. It is not easy to balance our life's obligations with our spiritual fulfillment. But it helps with a good practice! Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Chris, > > But samurai training consists of a great number of 'what if' scenarios. > > Edgar > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Agreed, Edgar! That is why I doubt there were many samurai zen 'masters'. That is why few of us will ever truly realize our Buddha Nature. It is not easy to balance our life's obligations with our spiritual fulfillment. But it helps with a good practice! Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Chris, > > But samurai training consists of a great number of 'what if' scenarios. > > Edgar > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
"fitness4u2163" <> accountability is important to me and I think it is the key to having a philosophy that is not totally subjective bullshit. > To whom should we be accountable? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
>>>"fitness4u2163" <> I practiced zazen at the zen temples of New York City, Miami (now gone), Madrid, Paris, and Rome. In Paris, I had the great privilege to go there on several occasions at the temple of Taisen Deshimaru. ...it really looked like a very living (and positive) community. ...I cannot say that I learned anything in particular. That's sad! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Edgar Owen Anthony is anticipating what will happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his Buddha Nature. > That is kind of limited. What happens when you get old and did not save any money your entire life? What is Buddha Nature going to tell you? Rob a bank? Pull a pension out of your ass?? Buddha Nature is over-rated and I think that Zen needs to grow up and deal with the reality that you cannot just react on the spot to every situation in life. It is easy for some robed monk sitting on his ass all day to react to his life. He has to choose between rice and noodles, sweeping the floor or mopping the hall. GET REAL. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Chris, But samurai training consists of a great number of 'what if' scenarios. Edgar On Jan 15, 2009, at 2:54 PM, cid830 wrote: Edgar, I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL. My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his Buddha Nature. Anticipating or worrying about situations that may or may not actually occur is a sign that you are not engaged in your zen practice. If you are not engaged in your practice, how can you expect to react to a situation with your Buddha Nature? This is one thing that led me to Zen. I used to worry and plan for situations that never happened. I used to run "what if" scenarios thru my head, to the point that it was driving me crazy. Zen practice helped me tremendously! Thanks again, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Chris, > > I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in. > > Edgar
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Jue Miao Jing Ming -In our school, karma is just a label for any "energy that causes" Good or bad are just human interpretations of the result after the fact. It is not a believe system or a reward system. Just simple cause and effect in Chi terms. > I can relate to that, because accountability is important to me and I think it is the key to having a philosophy that is not totally subjective bullshit. Unfortunately, you are in California, and I am here. I mean here (I moved). Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
"cid830" <> So, what were your Zen qualifications again? You read some books? You visited some temples?> Reading zen books was always a great pleasure for me. There are lots of great zen books, the older ones seem to be the best, IMHO, though I have not been reading a lot of them in the past ten years. I practiced zazen at the zen temples of New York City, Miami (now gone), Madrid, Paris, and Rome. In Paris, I had the great privilege to go there on several occasions at the temple of Taisen Deshimaru. It was a very impressive temple, the largest one that I have ever seen. There were at least 250 people practicing zazen each time I visited, and it really looked like a very living (and positive) community. These are not qualifications, because I cannot say that I learned anything in particular. These are just happy memories of good things that I have been able to enjoy in my life. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
> OUCH! > > What if you stick a porcupine in your narrow hole? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony Wu <> -Â A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog > That's not funny, that's sick. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Edgar, I'm sure you needed that lesson on the samarai! LOL. My point, in Bill's defense, was that this is not comparable to his response to Anthony's questions. Anthony is anticipating what will happen if he runs into a killer or how he will react while starving, I see Bill's point as telling him the anticipation is the problem. The zen training will allow him to react to the situation at hand from his Buddha Nature. Anticipating or worrying about situations that may or may not actually occur is a sign that you are not engaged in your zen practice. If you are not engaged in your practice, how can you expect to react to a situation with your Buddha Nature? This is one thing that led me to Zen. I used to worry and plan for situations that never happened. I used to run "what if" scenarios thru my head, to the point that it was driving me crazy. Zen practice helped me tremendously! Thanks again, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Chris, > > I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in. > > Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Chris, I am in agreement with your thoughts. Thanks for jumping in. Edgar On Jan 15, 2009, at 2:14 PM, cid830 wrote: Edgar, This is a very good point! Please forgive me for butting in, but... It was a samurai's duty to be prepared for the fight. I'm not sure of how many samurai's were actually zen 'masters', but it is my understanding that they practiced zen as part of their training. Being trained in their skill did not mean they were "planning" ahead of time how they would react to a certain situation. They were not to anticipate or worry about what might happen. It meant that they would be able to precisely act from Buddha Nature to the situation at hand. The combat training gave them the fighting skills, and the zen training gave them the ability to implement those skills without the "fear" of death or other "thoughts" that may hinder their fighting ability. In the Zone, so to speak. This is the theory as I see it anyway. Again, sorry for jumping into your discussion. I'm sure Bill will have a much better response. Thank You, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Bill, > > The samurai prepares for such a situation in advance. Do you claim he > can't then act from Buddha Nature when the time comes? Just the > opposite, by preparing his body is tuned to act as it needs in the > moment far more efficiently than if he had not trained. > > Edgar > > > > On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:22 AM, wrote: > > > Anthony, > > > > I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What would > > you do if confronted with someone who was threatening your life?" > > > > I can absolutely truthfully say that I don't know what I'd do. If I > > knew what I would do then that means I would have thought it all > > out ahead of time, and then it would me Bill! acting and not Buddha > > Nature. > > > > I can tell you I would probably do what all animals due when > > confronted with danger: flight or fight. I would either try to get > > away - that could be by using persuasive talk or actually running > > away; or fight - that also could be with threatening talk or > > behavior, but could include physical assault. If what you are > > looking for is a definite statement that I would be passive and not > > commit violence, I can assure you that would not always be the case. > > > > Like responding to a koan, the answer depends on the entire moment: > > who's asking, what's the situation and what's my experience at that > > moment. > > > > I hope that response satisfies you. It satisfies me. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf Of Anthony Wu > > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > > > > Bill, > > > > I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. > > In my case: > > - If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death. > > - If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma. > > > > Understanding your action cannot be my template, I am still curious > > what your reaction is in that position 'at this moment when you are > > writing'. Don't worry about the next moment when you may react > > differently. I will be disappointed if you say you cannot answer > > because you only have 'just this' at the present. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > >
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Edgar, This is a very good point! Please forgive me for butting in, but... It was a samurai's duty to be prepared for the fight. I'm not sure of how many samurai's were actually zen 'masters', but it is my understanding that they practiced zen as part of their training. Being trained in their skill did not mean they were "planning" ahead of time how they would react to a certain situation. They were not to anticipate or worry about what might happen. It meant that they would be able to precisely act from Buddha Nature to the situation at hand. The combat training gave them the fighting skills, and the zen training gave them the ability to implement those skills without the "fear" of death or other "thoughts" that may hinder their fighting ability. In the Zone, so to speak. This is the theory as I see it anyway. Again, sorry for jumping into your discussion. I'm sure Bill will have a much better response. Thank You, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Bill, > > The samurai prepares for such a situation in advance. Do you claim he > can't then act from Buddha Nature when the time comes? Just the > opposite, by preparing his body is tuned to act as it needs in the > moment far more efficiently than if he had not trained. > > Edgar > > > > On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:22 AM, wrote: > > > Anthony, > > > > I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What would > > you do if confronted with someone who was threatening your life?" > > > > I can absolutely truthfully say that I don't know what I'd do. If I > > knew what I would do then that means I would have thought it all > > out ahead of time, and then it would me Bill! acting and not Buddha > > Nature. > > > > I can tell you I would probably do what all animals due when > > confronted with danger: flight or fight. I would either try to get > > away - that could be by using persuasive talk or actually running > > away; or fight - that also could be with threatening talk or > > behavior, but could include physical assault. If what you are > > looking for is a definite statement that I would be passive and not > > commit violence, I can assure you that would not always be the case. > > > > Like responding to a koan, the answer depends on the entire moment: > > who's asking, what's the situation and what's my experience at that > > moment. > > > > I hope that response satisfies you. It satisfies me. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf Of Anthony Wu > > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > > > > Bill, > > > > I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. > > In my case: > > - If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death. > > - If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma. > > > > Understanding your action cannot be my template, I am still curious > > what your reaction is in that position 'at this moment when you are > > writing'. Don't worry about the next moment when you may react > > differently. I will be disappointed if you say you cannot answer > > because you only have 'just this' at the present. > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, The samurai prepares for such a situation in advance. Do you claim he can't then act from Buddha Nature when the time comes? Just the opposite, by preparing his body is tuned to act as it needs in the moment far more efficiently than if he had not trained. Edgar On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:22 AM, wrote: Anthony, I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What would you do if confronted with someone who was threatening your life?" I can absolutely truthfully say that I don't know what I'd do. If I knew what I would do then that means I would have thought it all out ahead of time, and then it would me Bill! acting and not Buddha Nature. I can tell you I would probably do what all animals due when confronted with danger: flight or fight. I would either try to get away - that could be by using persuasive talk or actually running away; or fight - that also could be with threatening talk or behavior, but could include physical assault. If what you are looking for is a definite statement that I would be passive and not commit violence, I can assure you that would not always be the case. Like responding to a koan, the answer depends on the entire moment: who's asking, what's the situation and what's my experience at that moment. I hope that response satisfies you. It satisfies me. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. In my case: - If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death. - If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma. Understanding your action cannot be my template, I am still curious what your reaction is in that position 'at this moment when you are writing'. Don't worry about the next moment when you may react differently. I will be disappointed if you say you cannot answer because you only have 'just this' at the present. Anthony
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, I will try to answer your question which I assume is: 'What would you do if confronted with someone who was threatening your life?" I can absolutely truthfully say that I don't know what I'd do. If I knew what I would do then that means I would have thought it all out ahead of time, and then it would me Bill! acting and not Buddha Nature. I can tell you I would probably do what all animals due when confronted with danger: flight or fight. I would either try to get away - that could be by using persuasive talk or actually running away; or fight - that also could be with threatening talk or behavior, but could include physical assault. If what you are looking for is a definite statement that I would be passive and not commit violence, I can assure you that would not always be the case. Like responding to a koan, the answer depends on the entire moment: who's asking, what's the situation and what's my experience at that moment. I hope that response satisfies you. It satisfies me. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:04 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. In my case: - If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death. - If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma. Understanding your action cannot be my template, I am still curious what your reaction is in that position 'at this moment when you are writing'. Don't worry about the next moment when you may react differently. I will be disappointed if you say you cannot answer because you only have 'just this' at the present. Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, There are illusions and there are illusions. The veils of illusion are multiple and myriad. Some are easy to penetrate, others impossible as they are artifacts of our existence in human form. I'm surprised that you accept anything as 'not illusion' based on past discussions, but if you accept pain then why not physical causality? If a brick drops on your foot, you accept that the pain it causes is real, but not that the brick dropping on your foot caused it? Edgar On Jan 14, 2009, at 9:15 PM, wrote: Anthony, You'll have to re-read some of my previous posts. In them I clearly stated that 'pain' (actually the sense of touch) is NOT AN ILLUSION. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:28 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, How can you cry, 'ouch' to an illusion. So it is not. Before you reach nirvana(to which I hope you are just around the corner), or whatever you call it, you are still in samsara. A lot of things are real there, including suffering. Once you reach the goal, they are all illusions. Anthony
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, I understand your 'zen logic' in view of a lack of a proper word. In my case: - If I run into a killer, I will run away, scared to death. - If I am starving, I will suffer a lot, complaining about bad karma. Understanding your action cannot be my template, I am still curious what your reaction is in that position 'at this moment when you are writing'. Don't worry about the next moment when you may react differently. I will be disappointed if you say you cannot answer because you only have 'just this' at the present. Anthony --- On Thu, 15/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 10:15 AM Anthony, It seems to me you're really obsessed with this killing thing. My advice to you is to quit thinking about 'what you should do' if you encounter a killer. That's like worrying about 'what kind of soap you should use' when washing your bowls. Just sit, clear you mind, allow you Buddha Nature to function freely and you won't be so obsessed with wondering about what you would do in any specific situation. When the situation comes up you will act in accordance with your Buddha Nature, just as you do when you are washing your bowls. Asking me what I would do in any specific situation is useless. What I would do or not do should not be a template for you. You must discover you Buddha Nature and then you won't have to think about how you would act. In fact 'you' don't act. There is no 'you'. There is Just THIS! Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:02 PM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed? Anthony New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, You'll have to re-read some of my previous posts. In them I clearly stated that 'pain' (actually the sense of touch) is NOT AN ILLUSION. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:28 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, How can you cry, 'ouch' to an illusion. So it is not. Before you reach nirvana(to which I hope you are just around the corner), or whatever you call it, you are still in samsara. A lot of things are real there, including suffering. Once you reach the goal, they are all illusions. Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, It seems to me you're really obsessed with this killing thing. My advice to you is to quit thinking about 'what you should do' if you encounter a killer. That's like worrying about 'what kind of soap you should use' when washing your bowls. Just sit, clear you mind, allow you Buddha Nature to function freely and you won't be so obsessed with wondering about what you would do in any specific situation. When the situation comes up you will act in accordance with your Buddha Nature, just as you do when you are washing your bowls. Asking me what I would do in any specific situation is useless. What I would do or not do should not be a template for you. You must discover you Buddha Nature and then you won't have to think about how you would act. In fact 'you' don't act. There is no 'you'. There is Just THIS! ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:02 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed? Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, The story/quote that Edgar cited is does not reflect 'what zen is supposed to be'. Zen is not 'supposed to be' anything. Quit looking for a template for zen or rules to follow. If you read some of the koans you'll see that many of them are just one person asking another the question 'What is Buddha Mind?' No one gives the same answer. All are valid responses. In this story the monk gave his valid response which came from his fully realized Buddha Nature. That doesn't mean that has to be your response, or even that it would be the same monk's response in the same situation 5 minutes later. The content of the response is not important. It's the fact that the response was a reflection of Buddha Nature that's important. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:16 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Edgar, Thank you. If that is what zen is supposed to be, I have to remodel my idea about it. Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, Edgar Owen wrote: From: Edgar Owen Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:47 PM Anthony, Reminds me of the following (supposedly actual dialogue): During wartime and the slaughter of civilians a general came upon a lone monk seated peacefully in the midst of the carnage. Surprised and puzzled the general asked the monk, "Aren't you worried about dying? I could kill you right now without batting an eye." The monk responded, "And I could be killed by you right now without batting an eye." Edgar On Jan 14, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: Bill, I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed? Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963. org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963. org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM Anthony and Mike, I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and wanted to say I agree with it for the most part. As for Anthony's questions below: - Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake when refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. The important part about these are not that they are remarkable, the important part about these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY THEM. You don't think about what you're going to do later when you are eating. When eating, Just EAT! When washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS! Always, Just THIS! - The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ! Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. It's Case 14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the monks quarreling and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the story. Read the Commentaries and Teisho on the case. Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean Zen Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a narrow hole may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. Maybe he had a problem with addiction to sex. His comparison may only apply to him and not to you. Again, don't overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of a quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any event YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all your books. The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of Compassion, a trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in Buddha Nature. Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com. If you post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy me on the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My email address I use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963. org. Thanks...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps..com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Mike, Please give me specific examples of what
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Edgar, Thank you. If that is what zen is supposed to be, I have to remodel my idea about it. Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, Edgar Owen wrote: From: Edgar Owen Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:47 PM Anthony, Reminds me of the following (supposedly actual dialogue): During wartime and the slaughter of civilians a general came upon a lone monk seated peacefully in the midst of the carnage. Surprised and puzzled the general asked the monk, "Aren't you worried about dying? I could kill you right now without batting an eye." The monk responded, "And I could be killed by you right now without batting an eye." Edgar On Jan 14, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: Bill, I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed? Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963. org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963. org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM Anthony and Mike, I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and wanted to say I agree with it for the most part. As for Anthony's questions below: - Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake when refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. The important part about these are not that they are remarkable, the important part about these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY THEM. You don't think about what you're going to do later when you are eating. When eating, Just EAT! When washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS! Always, Just THIS! - The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ! Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. It's Case 14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the monks quarreling and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the story. Read the Commentaries and Teisho on the case. Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean Zen Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a narrow hole may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. Maybe he had a problem with addiction to sex. His comparison may only apply to him and not to you. Again, don't overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of a quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any event YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all your books. The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of Compassion, a trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in Buddha Nature. Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com. If you post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy me on the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My email address I use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963. org. Thanks...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Mike, Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'. I have read: - Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel between two groups of monks. - Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out). - Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource.. - A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings) What do you think of them? Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown wrote: From: mike brown Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM Hi Al, This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the beliefs, moral, ethics that have been pa
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
LOL! Mike, I actually paused and contemplated adding your name while typing that. I left you out on purpose, out of respect. I thought bringing Bill and JM into this nonsense was bad enough! Thank You, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown wrote: > > > > > > > > >p.s. I think Bill and JM are fine examples of Zen practitioners! > > > Oops! Sorry, I forgot to include Mike. > > Chris > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, Reminds me of the following (supposedly actual dialogue): During wartime and the slaughter of civilians a general came upon a lone monk seated peacefully in the midst of the carnage. Surprised and puzzled the general asked the monk, "Aren't you worried about dying? I could kill you right now without batting an eye." The monk responded, "And I could be killed by you right now without batting an eye." Edgar On Jan 14, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: Bill, I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed? Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM Anthony and Mike, I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and wanted to say I agree with it for the most part. As for Anthony's questions below: - Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake when refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. The important part about these are not that they are remarkable, the important part about these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY THEM. You don't think about what you're going to do later when you are eating. When eating, Just EAT! When washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS! Always, Just THIS! - The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ! Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. It's Case 14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the monks quarreling and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the story. Read the Commentaries and Teisho on the case. Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean Zen Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a narrow hole may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. Maybe he had a problem with addiction to sex. His comparison may only apply to him and not to you. Again, don't overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of a quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any event YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all your books. The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of Compassion, a trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in Buddha Nature. Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com. If you post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy me on the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My email address I use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963. org. Thanks...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Mike, Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'. I have read: - Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel between two groups of monks. - Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out). - Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource.. - A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings) What do you think of them? Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown wrote: From: mike brown Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM Hi Al, This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/ her. There is nothing inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will face a situation which demands he act in accordance with his society's moals/religious beliefs but which creates a conflict with his
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Uerusuboyo wa nan desuka? --- On Wed, 14/1/09, mike brown wrote: From: mike brown Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 4:57 PM Oops! Sorry, I forgot to include Mike. Chris Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, I fully agree with all you say, but on condition that we live in paradise on earth, like in the USA, or your part of Thailand, where you are not faced with killing, war and other kinds of suffering. When you meet a murderer, and are being killed, can you just 'be killed'? Then you qualify for a samurai. When you starve with no money to buy food, can you just starve? What if the murderer is killing your friend? Do you help him, or just stand by and see him killed? Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM Anthony and Mike, I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and wanted to say I agree with it for the most part. As for Anthony's questions below: - Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake when refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. The important part about these are not that they are remarkable, the important part about these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY THEM. You don't think about what you're going to do later when you are eating. When eating, Just EAT! When washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS! Always, Just THIS! - The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ! Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. It's Case 14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the monks quarreling and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the story. Read the Commentaries and Teisho on the case. Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean Zen Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a narrow hole may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. Maybe he had a problem with addiction to sex. His comparison may only apply to him and not to you. Again, don't overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of a quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any event YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all your books. The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of Compassion, a trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in Buddha Nature. Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com.. If you post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy me on the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My email address I use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963. org. Thanks...Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Mike, Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'. I have read: - Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel between two groups of monks. - Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out). - Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource.. - A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings) What do you think of them? Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown wrote: From: mike brown Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM Hi Al, This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. There is nothing inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will face a situation which demands he act in accordance with his society's moals/religious beliefs but which creates a conflict with his individual conscience. This in turn creates a constant 'mulling' over of the situation eg, is it 'just', good or bad etc. This is the very thing Zen stands against because this constant thinking and rationalising comes from an ego at war with itself and the moral beliefs of society (such beliefs are more often than not an obstruction to executing an immediate action). A Zen-aware person has broken thru the belief system of his culture and has become a 'master' of himself and so acts instantly with no thought of what is 'just
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, How can you cry, 'ouch' to an illusion. So it is not. Before you reach nirvana(to which I hope you are just around the corner), or whatever you call it, you are still in samsara. A lot of things are real there, including suffering. Once you reach the goal, they are all illusions. Anthony --- On Wed, 14/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:59 AM OUCH! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:23 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I am not reading any books at this moment. I am reading your posts. How do you respond to the pain, after you prick your thigh with a needle? I have trouble believing you consider it illusion. Anthony Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
>p.s. I think Bill and JM are fine examples of Zen practitioners! Oops! Sorry, I forgot to include Mike. Chris
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Hi Al, What I have experienced about hurting others is that I will either get sick or get a head ache or some kind of discomfort in different levels. Many practitioners in our school can sense, transfer and eliminate karma. In our school, karma is just a label for any "energy that causes" Good or bad are just human interpretations of the result after the fact. It is not a believe system or a reward system. Just simple cause and effect in Chi terms. Additionally, the ten chakras observed in our practice correspond to the ten Buddha realms. Meaning both heaven and hell are all within us. Those who hurt others are not at peace within themselves. Violent people are never at peace with oneself. A lot of times, they don't even know who they are. Their actions are no different then animals. In such case, they are then either in Asura or in Animal realm, two of the Buddhist realms. Did I answer your question? JM fitness4u2163 wrote: > > Jue Miao Jing Ming -> The definition of a practitioner is to "practice > and apply". The apply part is the sweetest. It is essence of Chan > practice. > > > > Do actions that hurt others create bad Chi? > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Maybe I can still get in to those temples that make you pay to sit. So, what were your Zen qualifications again? You read some books? You visited some temples? Now you can judge other's perceptions of Zen. What made you give up on it? What are you following now? You may have alot of knowledge (you think), but you definitely lack understanding. Still waiting.. Chris p.s. I think Bill and JM are fine examples of Zen practitioners! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "fitness4u2163" wrote: > > "cid830" > I have read the Zen forum.> > > Gee. That would probably result in an automatic disqualification if > you were applying to be a monk at any reputable zen temple. > > I hope that I have not contributed anything to your mis-education. > Please forgive me. > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Jue Miao Jing Ming -> The definition of a practitioner is to "practice and apply". The apply part is the sweetest. It is essence of Chan practice. > Do actions that hurt others create bad Chi? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
"cid830" > I have read the Zen forum.> Gee. That would probably result in an automatic disqualification if you were applying to be a monk at any reputable zen temple. I hope that I have not contributed anything to your mis-education. Please forgive me. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Al, I have read the Zen forum. With Masters such as Bill! and JMJM. If these great minds have not convinced you of the benefits of Zen, then I certainly will be of no help. Zen Buddhism teaches of the Eight-Fold Path. This may be interpreted as a 'moral' teaching if you like, but as soon as you attach your judgement as such, you are losing the essence of Zen. Your answer is within. Good luck in your search. Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "fitness4u2163" wrote: > > "cid830" at least tell me where I can find that zen is a "moral" > system. > > > > Please post a list of the zen books you have read, the zen masters > that you have studied with, and the zen temples that you have > practiced at. > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Good day All, If I may jump in, As an advanced practitioner, if there is such a term.,, He/She shall know at every moment that every encounter in our lives is dharma. It is the purpose of this "advanced practitioner" to fulfill, consummate, harmonize, resolve, without expectation, without judgment, without asking why or how. As Nike said, "Just do it." I would append with, "within our available resources." The definition of a practitioner is to "practice and apply". The apply part is the sweetest. It is th essence of Chan practice. _/\_ billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: > > Anthony and Mike, > > I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting > posts from Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and > wanted to say I agree with it for the most part. > > As for Anthony's questions below: > - Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake > when refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. > The important part about these are not that they are remarkable, the > important part about these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY > THEM. You don't think about what you're going to do later when you are > eating. When eating, Just EAT! When washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR > BOWLS! Always, Just THIS! > > - The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to > intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ! > > Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. > It's Case 14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the > monks quarreling and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the > story. Read the Commentaries and Teisho on the case. > > Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean > Zen Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a > narrow hole may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. > Maybe he had a problem with addiction to sex. His comparison may only > apply to him and not to you. Again, don't overly intellectualize his > words, and no matter WHO the author of a quote is, even Gautama > Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be misquoted or > awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any event > YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all > your books. > > The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of > Compassion, a trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in > Buddha Nature. > > Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from > Zen_Forum@Yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40Yahoogroups.com>. If you > post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy > me on the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My > email address I use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963.org > <mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>. > > Thanks...Bill! > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > > Mike, > > Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner > can do, after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'. > > I have read: > - Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious > quarrel between two groups of monks. > - Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having > sex to a porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out). > - Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, > then dry them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource.. > - A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the > maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of > certain thinkings) > > What do you think of them? > > Anthony > > --- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown <mailto:uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk>> wrote: > From: mike brown <mailto:uerusuboyo%40yahoo.co.uk>> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM > Hi Al, > > This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts > the beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. > There is nothing inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will > face a situation which demands
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Edgar! How could you say that! I do believe you are Evil and Amoral! I'll pray for you. Wishing you only the best karma, I am... ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:30 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Hi Bill, It hasn't been hard to 'transcend the plane' of some of the recent discussions! :-) Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony and Mike, I'm jumping into this discussion to say that I still am not getting posts from Mike. I read his post attached to this post (Anthony's) and wanted to say I agree with it for the most part. As for Anthony's questions below: - Some examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do are: wake when refreshed, eat when hungry, wash your bowls and sleep when tired. The important part about these are not that they are remarkable, the important part about these is when you do them, you DO THEM and ONLY THEM. You don't think about what you're going to do later when you are eating. When eating, Just EAT! When washing your bowls, Just WASH YOUR BOWLS! Always, Just THIS! - The stories you read are just stories - zen stories. Don't try to intellectualize them. When you read them Just READ! Read the koan concerning Nanchaun (Nanzen - Jp.) and the cat again. It's Case 14 in the GATELESS GATE koan collection. The part about the monks quarreling and the 'killing' of the cat is incidental to the story. Read the Commentaries and Teisho on the case. Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) was a contemporary Zen Master in the Korean Zen Buddhist tradition. His comparison about sex and a porcupine in a narrow hole may have been meant to refer to any type of addiction. Maybe he had a problem with addiction to sex. His comparison may only apply to him and not to you. Again, don't overly intellectualize his words, and no matter WHO the author of a quote is, even Gautama Siddhartha Buddha, the quotes are just words, may be misquoted or awkwardly interpreted, and may or may not apply to you. In any event YOU are the one who must discovery Buddha Nature and then you burn all your books. The other two examples you cite are just extreme examples of Compassion, a trait that is stressed in Buddhism and is inherent in Buddha Nature. Mike, I am not getting your posts via email from zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com. If you post something you REALLY REALLY want me to read, please either copy me on the email or send me an alert that you've posted something. My email address I use for the forum is billsm...@hhs1963.org. Thanks...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:44 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Mike, Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'. I have read: - Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel between two groups of monks. - Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out). - Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource.. - A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings) What do you think of them? Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown wrote: From: mike brown Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM Hi Al, This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. There is nothing inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will face a situation which demands he act in accordance with his society's moals/religious beliefs but which creates a conflict with his individual conscience. This in turn creates a constant 'mulling' over of the situation eg, is it 'just', good or bad etc. This is the very thing Zen stands against because this constant thinking and rationalising comes from an ego at war with itself and the moral beliefs of society (such beliefs are more often than not an obstruction to executing an immediate action). A Zen-aware person has broken thru the belief system of his culture and has become a 'master' of himself and so acts instantly with no thought of what is 'just', good/bad according to a hegemonic system that comes from outside of himself. So, a person acting from the Zen standpoint is far from amoral. They are always open, present, balanced and acting beyond ego. It is the taking away of a belief in morals that creates this state (enlightenment) but which produces behaviour that could be called 'moral' as viewed by most of the worlds major religions. Mike --- On Tue, 13/1/09, fitness4u2163 wrote: Anthony Wu > Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. As soon as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. > It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen th
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
OUCH! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:23 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, I am not reading any books at this moment. I am reading your posts. How do you respond to the pain, after you prick your thigh with a needle? I have trouble believing you consider it illusion. Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Edgar, If we carry even further, the term/concept of "Just This" as well as "Chi" are also forms and illusionary. These terms exist purely for convenience sake. Any action which accepts or reject any of it, is just a mental exercise. Therefore meaningless. :-) JM Edgar Owen wrote: > > JM, > > > I agree with your view that all form is illusion rather than Bill's > view that such things as sensory input are real and not illusion. Form > doesn't apply just to visual or tactile forms, it includes everything > other than pure formless ontological energy. > > Then go one step further and realize that the forms are what appear in > the reality of the conscious present moment, so we must accept that > the forms, seen as illusion are what is real, as well as the formless > energy of which they are forms. > > Edgar > > > > On Jan 13, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: > >> Well, may I interrupt. This is fun. >> >> The word/concept of "illusion" is an illusion. Likewise, "levels of >> illusion" is an illusion. >> The word/concept of "karma, believe and not believe in karma" a is an >> illusion. >> >> Illusion in this case means our mental exercise. All forms, I mean ALL, >> which does include language, logic, concept, terms, anything for our >> conscious mind is empty, relative and impermanent. >> >> After stripping away all the forms, nakedly there is the spirit of the >> universe. Some called this vast emptiness. Yet in this vast emptiness, >> there is this exquisite existence -- life force. >> >> I throw in the word "nakedly" for Al. :-) >> JM >> >> billsm...@hhs1963.org <mailto:BillSmart%40HHS1963.org> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Edgar! I haven't seen posts from you in a while. I thought maybe >> you'd >> > transcended this plane into a higher one. Thanks for your post and your >> > comments. >> > >> > I think your reading of my post as stating that perceptions (such as >> sense >> > of touch) are not illusory, and deducing from that statement that I said >> > "...aspects of the objective world are not illusory" is invalid, >> > although I >> > could see where you could make that interpretation. It all depends >> on how >> > and to what you apply the term 'aspect'. >> > >> > Your dualistic mind creates the objective world. It is an illusion. >> > Perceptions are not aspects of an objective world. The objective >> world is >> > an aspect of your dualistic mind. Your immediate perceptions (like >> > sense of >> > touch), prior to any intellectualizations, are real. They are aspects of >> > your Buddha Nature. As soon as you exercise your dualistic mind and >> > intellectualize your perceptions, like classifying them as good or >> > bad, you >> > are creating illusions. >> > >> > I used the word 'pain' in my original because Anthony used it. I >> > always try >> > to directly address a post if I'm responding to it. I've the term >> > 'sense of >> > touch' in this post to be more precise. 'Pain' could be interpreted >> as an >> > unpleasant or undesirable sense of touch. As soon as you classify the >> > sense >> > of touch as unpleasant or undesirable then you're intellectualizing. >> > >> > Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this. >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> >> > [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> >> > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf >> > Of Edgar Owen >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM >> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> >> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God >> > >> > Bill, >> > >> > You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not >> > illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that >> > everything, >> > that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha >> > nature in the foot! >> > >> > Care to clarify? >> > >> > That being said I certainly agree that there are different 'levels' of >> > illusion since the veils of illusion are multiple and overlapping. >> > >> > Edgar >> > >> > >> > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Mike, Please give me specific examples of what an advanced zen practitioner can do, after 'breaking through belief systems and acting beyond ego'. I have read: - Zen Master Nanchuan killed a cat, because it caused a serious quarrel between two groups of monks. - Zen Master Sohng Sahn (died a couple of years ago) compared having sex to a porcupine getting into a narrow hole (too addictive to get out). - Monks practisin zen wash their bowls, after having rice, with tea, then dry them, so that no water is used to save that precious resource. - A monk licks maggots on a wound of a dog, for fear of hurting the maggots and the dog (this may be a myth, but is representative of certain thinkings) What do you think of them? Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, mike brown wrote: From: mike brown Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:15 PM Hi Al, This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. There is nothing inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will face a situation which demands he act in accordance with his society's moals/religious beliefs but which creates a conflict with his individual conscience. This in turn creates a constant 'mulling' over of the situation eg, is it 'just', good or bad etc. This is the very thing Zen stands against because this constant thinking and rationalising comes from an ego at war with itself and the moral beliefs of society (such beliefs are more often than not an obstruction to executing an immediate action). A Zen-aware person has broken thru the belief system of his culture and has become a 'master' of himself and so acts instantly with no thought of what is 'just', good/bad according to a hegemonic system that comes from outside of himself. So, a person acting from the Zen standpoint is far from amoral. They are always open, present, balanced and acting beyond ego. It is the taking away of a belief in morals that creates this state (enlightenment) but which produces behaviour that could be called 'moral' as viewed by most of the worlds major religions. Mike --- On Tue, 13/1/09, fitness4u2163 wrote: Anthony Wu > Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. As soon as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. > It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen think it is some amoral system to ease their conscience every day so they can do evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness. Adding more friends is quick and easy. Import them over to Yahoo! Mail today! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-sg
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, I am not reading any books at this moment. I am reading your posts. How do you respond to the pain, after you prick your thigh with a needle? I have trouble believing you consider it illusion. Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 9:09 PM Anthony, If you have a problem with the idea that 'everything is illusory', then you have a problem with most of Buddhism and certainly with zen. Actually, EVERYTHING is not illusory - but everything that comes about through intellectualization is. Certainly Newton's Laws are illusory. They're the product of his intellect. Your understanding of them is the product of your intellect. Intellectualization s are illusory. Pain is not illusory. Starving and dying are not illusory. SUFFERING from pain or starving or dying is illusory. The idea that all suffering is illusion is the basic tenant of Buddhism. What books have you been reading lately? Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:08 PM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Yes, I think accountability is a more appropriate word. However, I still have problems with your idea that everything is illusory. Do you also think Newton's law is illusory. I suggest you try pricking your thigh with a needle. Is the pain also illusory? So many people starve, die, and suffer from all kinds of pain. Are they illusory? Anthony Importing contacts has never been easier..Bring your friends over to Yahoo! Mail today! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-sg
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
"cid830" at least tell me where I can find that zen is a "moral" system. > Please post a list of the zen books you have read, the zen masters that you have studied with, and the zen temples that you have practiced at. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Hey! I resemble that remark! Someone's got to watch the house while the grown-ups are out. By the way, I don't appreciate your ambushing the Master like that. Good thing he is always at the ready and aware of his surroundings. LOL :) Thank you for posting! Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > It hasn't been hard to 'transcend the plane' of some of the recent > discussions! :-) > > Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
JM, I agree with your view that all form is illusion rather than Bill's view that such things as sensory input are real and not illusion. Form doesn't apply just to visual or tactile forms, it includes everything other than pure formless ontological energy. Then go one step further and realize that the forms are what appear in the reality of the conscious present moment, so we must accept that the forms, seen as illusion are what is real, as well as the formless energy of which they are forms. Edgar On Jan 13, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: Well, may I interrupt. This is fun. The word/concept of "illusion" is an illusion. Likewise, "levels of illusion" is an illusion. The word/concept of "karma, believe and not believe in karma" a is an illusion. Illusion in this case means our mental exercise. All forms, I mean ALL, which does include language, logic, concept, terms, anything for our conscious mind is empty, relative and impermanent. After stripping away all the forms, nakedly there is the spirit of the universe. Some called this vast emptiness. Yet in this vast emptiness, there is this exquisite existence -- life force. I throw in the word "nakedly" for Al. :-) JM billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: > > Hi Edgar! I haven't seen posts from you in a while. I thought maybe you'd > transcended this plane into a higher one. Thanks for your post and your > comments. > > I think your reading of my post as stating that perceptions (such as sense > of touch) are not illusory, and deducing from that statement that I said > "...aspects of the objective world are not illusory" is invalid, > although I > could see where you could make that interpretation. It all depends on how > and to what you apply the term 'aspect'. > > Your dualistic mind creates the objective world. It is an illusion. > Perceptions are not aspects of an objective world. The objective world is > an aspect of your dualistic mind. Your immediate perceptions (like > sense of > touch), prior to any intellectualizations, are real. They are aspects of > your Buddha Nature. As soon as you exercise your dualistic mind and > intellectualize your perceptions, like classifying them as good or > bad, you > are creating illusions. > > I used the word 'pain' in my original because Anthony used it. I > always try > to directly address a post if I'm responding to it. I've the term > 'sense of > touch' in this post to be more precise. 'Pain' could be interpreted as an > unpleasant or undesirable sense of touch. As soon as you classify the > sense > of touch as unpleasant or undesirable then you're intellectualizing. > > Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this. > > ...Bill! > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf > Of Edgar Owen > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > > Bill, > > You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not > illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that > everything, > that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha > nature in the foot! > > Care to clarify? > > That being said I certainly agree that there are different 'levels' of > illusion since the veils of illusion are multiple and overlapping. > > Edgar > >
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Hi Bill, It hasn't been hard to 'transcend the plane' of some of the recent discussions! :-) Edgar On Jan 13, 2009, at 9:36 AM, wrote: Hi Edgar! I haven't seen posts from you in a while. I thought maybe you'd transcended this plane into a higher one. Thanks for your post and your comments. I think your reading of my post as stating that perceptions (such as sense of touch) are not illusory, and deducing from that statement that I said "...aspects of the objective world are not illusory" is invalid, although I could see where you could make that interpretation. It all depends on how and to what you apply the term 'aspect'. Your dualistic mind creates the objective world. It is an illusion. Perceptions are not aspects of an objective world. The objective world is an aspect of your dualistic mind. Your immediate perceptions (like sense of touch), prior to any intellectualizations, are real. They are aspects of your Buddha Nature. As soon as you exercise your dualistic mind and intellectualize your perceptions, like classifying them as good or bad, you are creating illusions. I used the word 'pain' in my original because Anthony used it. I always try to directly address a post if I'm responding to it. I've the term 'sense of touch' in this post to be more precise. 'Pain' could be interpreted as an unpleasant or undesirable sense of touch. As soon as you classify the sense of touch as unpleasant or undesirable then you're intellectualizing. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that everything, that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha nature in the foot! Care to clarify? That being said I certainly agree that there are different 'levels' of illusion since the veils of illusion are multiple and overlapping. Edgar
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Al, Who is the standard bearer? You? Who defines morality? It's easy to pick on Zen. It's harder to stand up for what you believe in. What is the correct belief system? Who shall be our moral guide? I'm still waiting for your answer. Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "fitness4u2163" wrote: > > Anthony Wu Is this a Buddhism? Of course, there is a place for > playboys in this world, but not in a monastry, I think. > > > > If you have no standards (no line in the sand), then you can justify > anything. That is what is going on in America today. It is call > immorality. > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Well, may I interrupt. This is fun. The word/concept of "illusion" is an illusion. Likewise, "levels of illusion" is an illusion. The word/concept of "karma, believe and not believe in karma" a is an illusion. Illusion in this case means our mental exercise. All forms, I mean ALL, which does include language, logic, concept, terms, anything for our conscious mind is empty, relative and impermanent. After stripping away all the forms, nakedly there is the spirit of the universe. Some called this vast emptiness. Yet in this vast emptiness, there is this exquisite existence -- life force. I throw in the word "nakedly" for Al. :-) JM billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: > > Hi Edgar! I haven't seen posts from you in a while. I thought maybe you'd > transcended this plane into a higher one. Thanks for your post and your > comments. > > I think your reading of my post as stating that perceptions (such as sense > of touch) are not illusory, and deducing from that statement that I said > "...aspects of the objective world are not illusory" is invalid, > although I > could see where you could make that interpretation. It all depends on how > and to what you apply the term 'aspect'. > > Your dualistic mind creates the objective world. It is an illusion. > Perceptions are not aspects of an objective world. The objective world is > an aspect of your dualistic mind. Your immediate perceptions (like > sense of > touch), prior to any intellectualizations, are real. They are aspects of > your Buddha Nature. As soon as you exercise your dualistic mind and > intellectualize your perceptions, like classifying them as good or > bad, you > are creating illusions. > > I used the word 'pain' in my original because Anthony used it. I > always try > to directly address a post if I'm responding to it. I've the term > 'sense of > touch' in this post to be more precise. 'Pain' could be interpreted as an > unpleasant or undesirable sense of touch. As soon as you classify the > sense > of touch as unpleasant or undesirable then you're intellectualizing. > > Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this. > > ...Bill! > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf > Of Edgar Owen > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > > Bill, > > You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not > illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that > everything, > that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha > nature in the foot! > > Care to clarify? > > That being said I certainly agree that there are different 'levels' of > illusion since the veils of illusion are multiple and overlapping. > > Edgar > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony Wu Is this a Buddhism? Of course, there is a place for playboys in this world, but not in a monastry, I think. > If you have no standards (no line in the sand), then you can justify anything. That is what is going on in America today. It is call immorality. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Al, How many zen practitioners do you know of who need to ease their conscience every day so they can do evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness? What evil do you know of that any zen practioner has done? Please tell us. Or at least tell me where I can find that zen is a "moral" system. Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "fitness4u2163" wrote: > > It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen think it is some amoral system to ease their conscience every day so they can do evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness. > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Hi Edgar! I haven't seen posts from you in a while. I thought maybe you'd transcended this plane into a higher one. Thanks for your post and your comments. I think your reading of my post as stating that perceptions (such as sense of touch) are not illusory, and deducing from that statement that I said "...aspects of the objective world are not illusory" is invalid, although I could see where you could make that interpretation. It all depends on how and to what you apply the term 'aspect'. Your dualistic mind creates the objective world. It is an illusion. Perceptions are not aspects of an objective world. The objective world is an aspect of your dualistic mind. Your immediate perceptions (like sense of touch), prior to any intellectualizations, are real. They are aspects of your Buddha Nature. As soon as you exercise your dualistic mind and intellectualize your perceptions, like classifying them as good or bad, you are creating illusions. I used the word 'pain' in my original because Anthony used it. I always try to directly address a post if I'm responding to it. I've the term 'sense of touch' in this post to be more precise. 'Pain' could be interpreted as an unpleasant or undesirable sense of touch. As soon as you classify the sense of touch as unpleasant or undesirable then you're intellectualizing. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:21 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that everything, that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha nature in the foot! Care to clarify? That being said I certainly agree that there are different 'levels' of illusion since the veils of illusion are multiple and overlapping. Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, You are actually saying that aspects of the objective world are not illusory! I'm amazed. That is not Buddhism, Buddhism states that everything, that is all forms, are illusory. I think you just shot your own Buddha nature in the foot! Care to clarify? That being said I certainly agree that there are different 'levels' of illusion since the veils of illusion are multiple and overlapping. Edgar On Jan 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, wrote: Anthony, If you have a problem with the idea that 'everything is illusory', then you have a problem with most of Buddhism and certainly with zen. Actually, EVERYTHING is not illusory - but everything that comes about through intellectualization is. Certainly Newton's Laws are illusory. They're the product of his intellect. Your understanding of them is the product of your intellect. Intellectualizations are illusory. Pain is not illusory. Starving and dying are not illusory. SUFFERING from pain or starving or dying is illusory. The idea that all suffering is illusion is the basic tenant of Buddhism. What books have you been reading lately? ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:08 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Yes, I think accountability is a more appropriate word. However, I still have problems with your idea that everything is illusory. Do you also think Newton's law is illusory. I suggest you try pricking your thigh with a needle. Is the pain also illusory? So many people starve, die, and suffer from all kinds of pain. Are they illusory? Anthony
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, If you have a problem with the idea that 'everything is illusory', then you have a problem with most of Buddhism and certainly with zen. Actually, EVERYTHING is not illusory - but everything that comes about through intellectualization is. Certainly Newton's Laws are illusory. They're the product of his intellect. Your understanding of them is the product of your intellect. Intellectualizations are illusory. Pain is not illusory. Starving and dying are not illusory. SUFFERING from pain or starving or dying is illusory. The idea that all suffering is illusion is the basic tenant of Buddhism. What books have you been reading lately? ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:08 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Yes, I think accountability is a more appropriate word. However, I still have problems with your idea that everything is illusory. Do you also think Newton's law is illusory. I suggest you try pricking your thigh with a needle. Is the pain also illusory? So many people starve, die, and suffer from all kinds of pain. Are they illusory? Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, Yes, I think accountability is a more appropriate word. However, I still have problems with your idea that everything is illusory. Do you also think Newton's law is illusory. I suggest you try pricking your thigh with a needle. Is the pain also illusory? So many people starve, die, and suffer from all kinds of pain. Are they illusory? Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 6:14 PM Anthony, >From reading your posting attached below I think you are talking about >'accountability' , not 'justification. thefreedictionary. com defines >'justify' as "To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid". It defines >'accountability as: "Liable to being called to account; answerable". The concept of 'karma' is the Buddhist vehicle for accountability. The concept of 'cause-and-effect' is the Newtonian equivalent. I don't 'deny' karma. I see it to be 'maya', and like most other intellectual concepts, including 'cause-and-effect' , to be illusory. If you believe in karma, then it certainly can have an effect on you. You could harbor guilt for doing something you think is 'wrong', and that certainly could affect your future actions. But then any illusion can have an effect on you if you believe it. If you believe in God and sin and Heaven and Hell then you might believe if you do something 'wrong' you might go to Hell when you die. You might also believe if you really, really regret doing whatever you did, and you ask God for forgiveness, you will be forgiven, and then still be eligible for Heaven. Does this mean God and sin and Heaven and Hell are not illusory? I believe they are, and so is karma. To finish off replying to your post, I don't believe there is a 'rule of this universe'. There's Just THIS! Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 5:06 PM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Good question! My answer is that justification is not by God, Allah, Brahman, Bill or Anthony. It is by karma. If I kill somebody, I create karma that will come back to me someday to result in a very bad situation where I will suffer a lot. In other words, actions do not need to be justified to anybody, but they will affect the doer. Justification may not be a right word, but you know what I mean. I know you don't believe in karma. Tell me what is the rule of this universe? What will happen to me if I steal something? Nothing? If you deny karma, but accept Newton's laws, you are saying that the material world has a very precise rule, but spiritually everything is haphazard. Anthony Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Hi Al, This is not true of Zen at all. A person in a society usually adopts the beliefs, moral, ethics that have been passed down to him/her. There is nothing inherently true in those beliefs. Often a person will face a situation which demands he act in accordance with his society's moals/religious beliefs but which creates a conflict with his individual conscience. This in turn creates a constant 'mulling' over of the situation eg, is it 'just', good or bad etc. This is the very thing Zen stands against because this constant thinking and rationalising comes from an ego at war with itself and the moral beliefs of society (such beliefs are more often than not an obstruction to executing an immediate action). A Zen-aware person has broken thru the belief system of his culture and has become a 'master' of himself and so acts instantly with no thought of what is 'just', good/bad according to a hegemonic system that comes from outside of himself. So, a person acting from the Zen standpoint is far from amoral. They are always open, present, balanced and acting beyond ego. It is the taking away of a belief in morals that creates this state (enlightenment) but which produces behaviour that could be called 'moral' as viewed by most of the worlds major religions. Mike --- On Tue, 13/1/09, fitness4u2163 wrote: Anthony Wu > Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. As soon as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. > It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen think it is some amoral system to ease their conscience every day so they can do evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness.
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, >From reading your posting attached below I think you are talking about >'accountability', not 'justification. thefreedictionary.com defines 'justify' >as "To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid". It defines >'accountability as: "Liable to being called to account; answerable". The concept of 'karma' is the Buddhist vehicle for accountability. The concept of 'cause-and-effect' is the Newtonian equivalent. I don't 'deny' karma. I see it to be 'maya', and like most other intellectual concepts, including 'cause-and-effect', to be illusory. If you believe in karma, then it certainly can have an effect on you. You could harbor guilt for doing something you think is 'wrong', and that certainly could affect your future actions. But then any illusion can have an effect on you if you believe it. If you believe in God and sin and Heaven and Hell then you might believe if you do something 'wrong' you might go to Hell when you die. You might also believe if you really, really regret doing whatever you did, and you ask God for forgiveness, you will be forgiven, and then still be eligible for Heaven. Does this mean God and sin and Heaven and Hell are not illusory? I believe they are, and so is karma. To finish off replying to your post, I don't believe there is a 'rule of this universe'. There's Just THIS! ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 5:06 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Good question! My answer is that justification is not by God, Allah, Brahman, Bill or Anthony. It is by karma. If I kill somebody, I create karma that will come back to me someday to result in a very bad situation where I will suffer a lot. In other words, actions do not need to be justified to anybody, but they will affect the doer. Justification may not be a right word, but you know what I mean. I know you don't believe in karma. Tell me what is the rule of this universe? What will happen to me if I steal something? Nothing? If you deny karma, but accept Newton's laws, you are saying that the material world has a very precise rule, but spiritually everything is haphazard. Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Al, Can you clarify What amoral system can ease some zen practitioners' conscience? Some time ago, I admired Tantric Buddhism on their detailed treatment of the bardo system. But when I read further, I was scared of their sex rituals, which they claim can only be practised by the 'most advanced' practitioners. Is this a Buddhism? Of course, there is a place for playboys in this world, but not in a monastry, I think. Anthony --- On Tue, 13/1/09, fitness4u2163 wrote: From: fitness4u2163 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:01 PM Anthony Wu > Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. As soon as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. > It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen think it is some amoral system to ease their conscience every day so they can do evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness. Adding more friends is quick and easy. Import them over to Yahoo! Mail today! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-sg
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony Wu > Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. As soon as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. > It is disturbing to me that many who want to practice zen think it is some amoral system to ease their conscience every day so they can do evil to others while feeling a sense of peace and happiness. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Karma is the best thing to ensure moral values. Better than God, Allah or Buddha. As soon as they hear about moral values, many will say we are just dogmatic. They are right in many cases. We need something to get around religion. Anthony --- On Mon, 12/1/09, fitness4u2163 wrote: From: fitness4u2163 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 10:45 PM Anthony Wu I can agree with all you say except for your statement that nothing needs to be justified. Then, kiling, lying, womanizing, drinking... do not need to be justified. They are 'just this'. > I think that is "New Age Zen" where everything is OK. I recall reading an old zen book that stated that there were some things that were not taught, such as moral values because the culture of Japan was such that these things were presumed and expected. New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony Wu I can agree with all you say except for your statement that nothing needs to be justified. Then, kiling, lying, womanizing, drinking... do not need to be justified. They are 'just this'. > I think that is "New Age Zen" where everything is OK. I recall reading an old zen book that stated that there were some things that were not taught, such as moral values because the culture of Japan was such that these things were presumed and expected. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, Good question! My answer is that justification is not by God, Allah, Brahman, Bill or Anthony. It is by karma. If I kill somebody, I create karma that will come back to me someday to result in a very bad situation where I will suffer a lot. In other words, actions do not need to be justified to anybody, but they will affect the doer. Justification may not be a right word, but you know what I mean. I know you don't believe in karma. Tell me what is the rule of this universe? What will happen to me if I steal something? Nothing? If you deny karma, but accept Newton's laws, you are saying that the material world has a very precise rule, but spiritually everything is haphazard. Anthony --- On Mon, 12/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 4:37 PM Anthony, Okay, if you think justification is necessary I have some questions for you: 1. What kind of actions need to be justified? All actions, or only 'bad' actions? If so, who determines they are 'bad' and need justification? 2. Who needs to justify these actions? The doer? You? 3. To whom do these actions need to be justified? The receiver? The doer's conscience? God? You? Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 5:02 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Thank you for your elucidation again. I can agree with all you say except for your statement that nothing needs to be justified. Then, kiling, lying, womanizing, drinking... do not need to be justified. They are 'just this'. Anthony Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Al, As I've told you before, you're thinking too hard and too much. You need to empty your 'self' out. Don't try to judge others or their actions as 'good' or 'evil'. Those are just judgments you are making on them. That's not to say if you see someone getting assaulted that you shouldn't try to stop the assault, or help the victim or punish the perpetrator - either physically or through your legal profession. When and if you do that, that's just something that happens. It's not good or bad, and 'you' are not doing anything. It's just Buddha Nature being manifested by Al. Karma is easy to understand. It's maya. It's not real. If you believe in it, then you'll look for evidence of it - and probably find some, or at least enough to justify your belief to yourself. Even if karma did exist it should not be used to make up or justify your reasons for doing things or not doing them. You should not do things because you fear punishment or are looking for a reward. You don't even do things. First of all, there is no 'you', and second of all there are no 'actions'. There is just this moment - Now. Just THIS! ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fitness4u2163 Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 1:31 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Anthony Wu That's what I don't agree with, as I see that there are opposing forces (good & evil?) which are at work every day. Open the newspaper and there are people being killed and otherwise assaulted and those killers are not in the same "Buddha Mind." I guess I am forgetting some of it, but there is an area that has never fully jelled in my understanding of karma, etc. __ NOD32 3755 (20090109) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, Okay, if you think justification is necessary I have some questions for you: 1. What kind of actions need to be justified? All actions, or only 'bad' actions? If so, who determines they are 'bad' and need justification? 2. Who needs to justify these actions? The doer? You? 3. To whom do these actions need to be justified? The receiver? The doer's conscience? God? You? ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 5:02 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Bill, Thank you for your elucidation again. I can agree with all you say except for your statement that nothing needs to be justified. Then, kiling, lying, womanizing, drinking... do not need to be justified. They are 'just this'. Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Good to hear from you, Mike, I was taught that we all have the potential to become a buddha. All we have to do is "realize" that potential with meditation and practice. It has always been there, we must dissolve the Ego and let go of attatchments, among other things, to see our True Self, beyond the illusions of form. I guess that's why I "assumed" Buddha-Nature is inherent in us all. Please help me to understand where I am wrong. I must admit, though, I still have not practiced in quite awhile and my memory of some of these lessons may definitely be confused. Thank you for posting! Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > I haven't been posting here for a while so it's good to be back to catch up with all the usual suspects! I couldn't help noticing your comment that you think Buddha-Nature is "inherent" in all of us. This is view that seems to contradict a fundamental tenet of Buddhism - that there is nothing inherent in any of us ie, nothing permanent. Isn't this why Buddha rejected Hinduism because of its belief that every person has an inherent atman (soul) which merges with Brahma when we die? What do you think? > > Mike > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Hi Chris, I haven't been posting here for a while so it's good to be back to catch up with all the usual suspects! I couldn't help noticing your comment that you think Buddha-Nature is "inherent" in all of us. This is view that seems to contradict a fundamental tenet of Buddhism - that there is nothing inherent in any of us ie, nothing permanent. Isn't this why Buddha rejected Hinduism because of its belief that every person has an inherent atman (soul) which merges with Brahma when we die? What do you think? Mike
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, I think Buddha Mind is inherent in all of us. But very few will realize it in their lifetime. And killing, lying, womanizing, and drinking cannot be justified. They are a fact of living. We all choose our own path. Many of us are not even sure why. Later, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > > Bill, > Â > Thank you for your elucidation again. I can agree with all you say except for your statement that nothing needs to be justified. Then, kiling, lying, womanizing, drinking... do not need to be justified. They are 'just this'. > Â > Anthony > > --- On Sat, 10/1/09, billsm...@... wrote: > > From: billsm...@... > Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 10:58 AM > > > > > > > Anthony, > > The word 'Buddha Mind' is used to communicate something - an experience. It is hollow if it is not successful in communicating. I started to write a more detailed response to your post, but remembered a good quote that I think makes the point pretty well: > > "The original mind or true self of the human being is the proper ground of enlightenment. Original Mind is the intrinsic essence of mind, the true self. It is inherently pure and good, and in Christian terms it can be said to participate in the Kingdom of God. In Eastern traditions it is prior to thought, prior to desire, prior to any conceptualization at all. It is discovered by stripping away all sensation, desire, concepts, intellection, volition, and awareness of "I." It partakes of the Oneness of all. Buddhism calls this mind the Buddha Nature, and much of Buddhist practice is aimed at its realization. They also call it "no-mind" because it is without any grasping at a (selfish) self. Taoists seek to strip away all intellection and formalism in order to arrive at the spontaneous activity of the natural man, who lives at one with the Tao of the universe." (Unfortunately I do not know the source of this quote, but it is self-explanatory and really > does not need to be authenticated by knowing the name of its author) > > I often call this 'Just THIS!'. > > Original mind, Buddha Mind, no-mind, Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven proceeded Buddha, Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Christianity and zen. All of these, except zen, are religions built up around someone's experience of Just THIS! and their subsequent attempts to share this experience with their followers.. I exclude zen (as distinct to Zen Buddhism) because zen does not have all the trappings of a religion, but does share the attempt to share the experience with others - but I've gone into my views on all of that ad nauseum in many previous postings. > > To you last point in your posting: > > The problem is that it tends to make things look easy. Since we all > >have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is justified. > > If you operate from your Buddha Mind, everything is easy. No effort. No indecisions. No mind. Just THIS! > > Nothing is 'justified', nor needs to be justified. To whom would you justify it? What is 'justice'? All just is. Just THIS! Nothing more. > > ....Bill! > > From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:10 AM > To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com > Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > > Both yours and Al's answer are very acceptable. On the other hand, I have yet to prove the idea of 'Buddha mind' came from historical Buddha. It may have been later Mahayanist invention. The problem is that it tends to make things look easy. Since we all have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is justified. > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Importing contacts has never been easier..Bring your friends over to Yahoo! Mail today! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-sg > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, Thank you for your elucidation again. I can agree with all you say except for your statement that nothing needs to be justified. Then, kiling, lying, womanizing, drinking... do not need to be justified. They are 'just this'. Anthony --- On Sat, 10/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 10:58 AM Anthony, The word 'Buddha Mind' is used to communicate something - an experience. It is hollow if it is not successful in communicating. I started to write a more detailed response to your post, but remembered a good quote that I think makes the point pretty well: "The original mind or true self of the human being is the proper ground of enlightenment. Original Mind is the intrinsic essence of mind, the true self. It is inherently pure and good, and in Christian terms it can be said to participate in the Kingdom of God. In Eastern traditions it is prior to thought, prior to desire, prior to any conceptualization at all. It is discovered by stripping away all sensation, desire, concepts, intellection, volition, and awareness of "I." It partakes of the Oneness of all. Buddhism calls this mind the Buddha Nature, and much of Buddhist practice is aimed at its realization. They also call it "no-mind" because it is without any grasping at a (selfish) self. Taoists seek to strip away all intellection and formalism in order to arrive at the spontaneous activity of the natural man, who lives at one with the Tao of the universe." (Unfortunately I do not know the source of this quote, but it is self-explanatory and really does not need to be authenticated by knowing the name of its author) I often call this 'Just THIS!'. Original mind, Buddha Mind, no-mind, Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven proceeded Buddha, Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Christianity and zen. All of these, except zen, are religions built up around someone's experience of Just THIS! and their subsequent attempts to share this experience with their followers.. I exclude zen (as distinct to Zen Buddhism) because zen does not have all the trappings of a religion, but does share the attempt to share the experience with others - but I've gone into my views on all of that ad nauseum in many previous postings. To you last point in your posting: > The problem is that it tends to make things look easy. Since we all >have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is justified. If you operate from your Buddha Mind, everything is easy. No effort. No indecisions. No mind. Just THIS! Nothing is 'justified', nor needs to be justified. To whom would you justify it? What is 'justice'? All just is. Just THIS! Nothing more. Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:10 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Both yours and Al's answer are very acceptable. On the other hand, I have yet to prove the idea of 'Buddha mind' came from historical Buddha. It may have been later Mahayanist invention. The problem is that it tends to make things look easy. Since we all have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is justified. Anthony Importing contacts has never been easier..Bring your friends over to Yahoo! Mail today! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-sg
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
"cid830" Zen Master Al strikes again! > I usually make my best points when I don't intend to, and people often disregard those things that I feel are the most important. I am not sure if that even qualifies as idiot savant. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony Wu That's what I don't agree with, as I see that there are opposing forces (good & evil?) which are at work every day. Open the newspaper and there are people being killed and otherwise assaulted and those killers are not in the same "Buddha Mind." I guess I am forgetting some of it, but there is an area that has never fully jelled in my understanding of karma, etc. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
You are too good, Bill! 'I' am always getting in my own way. Zen Master Al strikes again! My Ego reigns supreme. Thank You, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Zen practice enables emptiness. If truly empty there is no 'you'; and if > there is no 'you' then there is room for everything. ..Bill! > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of cid830 > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:45 AM > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > > I'm sure many things ring hollow, when your empty inside. > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Zen practice enables emptiness. If truly empty there is no 'you'; and if there is no 'you' then there is room for everything. ..Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cid830 Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:45 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God I'm sure many things ring hollow, when your empty inside. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony, The word 'Buddha Mind' is used to communicate something - an experience. It is hollow if it is not successful in communicating. I started to write a more detailed response to your post, but remembered a good quote that I think makes the point pretty well: "The original mind or true self of the human being is the proper ground of enlightenment. Original Mind is the intrinsic essence of mind, the true self. It is inherently pure and good, and in Christian terms it can be said to participate in the Kingdom of God. In Eastern traditions it is prior to thought, prior to desire, prior to any conceptualization at all. It is discovered by stripping away all sensation, desire, concepts, intellection, volition, and awareness of "I." It partakes of the Oneness of all. Buddhism calls this mind the Buddha Nature, and much of Buddhist practice is aimed at its realization. They also call it "no-mind" because it is without any grasping at a (selfish) self. Taoists seek to strip away all intellection and formalism in order to arrive at the spontaneous activity of the natural man, who lives at one with the Tao of the universe." (Unfortunately I do not know the source of this quote, but it is self-explanatory and really does not need to be authenticated by knowing the name of its author) I often call this 'Just THIS!'. Original mind, Buddha Mind, no-mind, Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven proceeded Buddha, Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Christianity and zen. All of these, except zen, are religions built up around someone's experience of Just THIS! and their subsequent attempts to share this experience with their followers. I exclude zen (as distinct to Zen Buddhism) because zen does not have all the trappings of a religion, but does share the attempt to share the experience with others - but I've gone into my views on all of that ad nauseum in many previous postings. To you last point in your posting: > The problem is that it tends to make things look easy. Since we all >have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is justified. If you operate from your Buddha Mind, everything is easy. No effort. No indecisions. No mind. Just THIS! Nothing is 'justified', nor needs to be justified. To whom would you justify it? What is 'justice'? All just is. Just THIS! Nothing more. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:10 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Both yours and Al's answer are very acceptable. On the other hand, I have yet to prove the idea of 'Buddha mind' came from historical Buddha. It may have been later Mahayanist invention. The problem is that it tends to make things look easy. Since we all have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is justified. Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
So true, Anthony! Especially mine! Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > > Most words are hollow. > > --- On Sat, 10/1/09, fitness4u2163 wrote: > > From: fitness4u2163 > Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 9:50 AM > > > > > > > "cid830"> I know it may sound like I don't have a clue what I'm > talking about, but I know what I believe and I have found what I am > looking for. > > > Words that ring hollow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New Email names for you! > Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. > Hurry before someone else does! > http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/ > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, This was actually Anthony's statement. But I like the emphasis on perspective. Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Chris, > > You asked: > > >Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot. > >Al is carrying a stick. Are you two in the same performance in > >two different characters? > > My response is: yes - but isn't that true for all of us? If we all do indeed share the same Buddha Mind then aren't we all just different expressions of that same Buddha Mind, or Buddha Mind seen from different perspectives? > > ...Bill! > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
I'm sure many things ring hollow, when your empty inside. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "fitness4u2163" wrote: > > "cid830"> I know it may sound like I don't have a clue what I'm > talking about, but I know what I believe and I have found what I am > looking for. > > > Words that ring hollow. > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Both yours and Al's answer are very acceptable. On the other hand, I have yet to prove the idea of 'Buddha mind' came from historical Buddha. It may have been later Mahayanist invention. The problem is that it tends to make things look easy. Since we all have the same Buddha mind, everything we do is justified. Anthony --- On Sat, 10/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 10:00 AM Chris, You asked: >Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot. >Al is carrying a stick. Are you two in the same performance in >two different characters? My response is: yes - but isn't that true for all of us? If we all do indeed share the same Buddha Mind then aren't we all just different expressions of that same Buddha Mind, or Buddha Mind seen from different perspectives? Bill! Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
Re: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Most words are hollow. --- On Sat, 10/1/09, fitness4u2163 wrote: From: fitness4u2163 Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 9:50 AM "cid830"> I know it may sound like I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, but I know what I believe and I have found what I am looking for. > Words that ring hollow. New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Chris, You asked: >Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot. >Al is carrying a stick. Are you two in the same performance in >two different characters? My response is: yes - but isn't that true for all of us? If we all do indeed share the same Buddha Mind then aren't we all just different expressions of that same Buddha Mind, or Buddha Mind seen from different perspectives? ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Anthony Wu < Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot. Al is carrying a stick. Are you two in the same performance in two different characters? > "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts," Jaques (Act II, Scene VII, lines 139-142) As You Like It by Shakespeare Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: The Reason For God
"cid830"> I know it may sound like I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, but I know what I believe and I have found what I am looking for. > Words that ring hollow. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com mailto:zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God
Bill, Your statement is always great and sweet. It feels like a carrot. Al is carrying a stick. Are you two in the same performance in two different characters? Anthony --- On Fri, 9/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 8:09 AM Anthony, I'm not advocating you sit on a pillow forever. Formal sitting with a teacher is a good way to learn to do zazen, but like anything else after you've learned the basics you should extend the activity into your entire life. It's the same for zazen. Just drop the 'za' part (which means 'sit' in Japanese - I think) and what you have left is 'zen'. You can sit zen (zazen), you can walk zen, you can talk zen and you can change the oil in your car's engine zen. Or as you suggest you can constantly oscillate between suffering and fun. Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:54 PM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God Are you advocating that we should all just sit on a pillow until it stinks, and that is all? That is why I say no suffering, no fun. Anthony --- On Wed, 7/1/09, billsm...@hhs1963. org wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963. org Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Date: Wednesday, 7 January, 2009, 3:53 PM Al is correct. Just THIS! Some of us think it's heaven and some of us think it's hell. Whatever we think of it, it's Just THIS! Bill! From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Zen_ fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of fitness4u2163 Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:13 AM To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com Subject: [Zen] Re: The Reason For God "cid830" I don't have to rely on my "faith" to carry me into the promised land, after I die! The Kingdom of Heaven is among us! > > That is as much a fantasy as anything else. To some degree it is a lot worse and more pathetic to walk this earth thinking it is heaven. I certainly hope that this is not as good as it gets. Read the news and every day there is no end to the murders, rapes, killing of children, and numerous other incidents that are much more horrible than anything a normal person can imagine. By the way, in case you all haven't figured it out, satori is a pure fantasy and all those altered states that are written about are the purest form of bullshit ever created. When they say that there is no there, they aren't kidding. It is all here, and that is it. Nothing more. No nothing. You can sit your ass on a pillow for the rest of eternity, and the only thing that will happen is the pillow will stink. __ NOD32 3741 (20090105) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com _ _ _ _ Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com. __ NOD32 3750 (20090108) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
