Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
Brent, I hope you don't mind I re-answer this. On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares,

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Nov 2013, at 23:59, meekerdb wrote: On 11/29/2013 9:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: On 11/28/2013 5:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:36, meekerdb wrote: On 11/27/2013 7:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, J

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Nov 2013, at 23:38, meekerdb wrote: On 11/29/2013 8:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Nov 2013, at 00:58, LizR wrote: On 29 November 2013 03:29, Samiya Illias wrote: Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the God used by both the a

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Nov 2013, at 22:06, meekerdb wrote: On 11/29/2013 2:09 AM, Samiya Illias wrote: Yes, I know we cannot answer that, but that is due to our lack of knowledge and comprehension of God, and not because God is useless or does not exist. God's presence is perceivable through His creation

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Nov 2013, at 21:14, Samiya Illias wrote: On 29-Nov-2013, at 10:34 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Nov 2013, at 15:29, Samiya Illias wrote: Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Nov 2013, at 07:56, Samiya Illias wrote: I understand that so many deities and faith-systems and all the myths and fantasies in them easily put off any thinking mind. Yet, the more we discover, the closer we get to theorizing about everything, the more difficult it is to believe that

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:51 AM, Samiya Illias wrote: > It takes intelligence and knowledge to write computer program, build a > machine, and so on. How can we conclude that the software of life, the > creation of the Universe / multiverse, all just happened on its own, > If the multiverse exists

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread meekerdb
On 11/29/2013 9:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: On 11/28/2013 5:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:36, meekerdb wrote: On 11/27/2013 7:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread meekerdb
On 11/29/2013 8:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Nov 2013, at 00:58, LizR wrote: On 29 November 2013 03:29, Samiya Illias > wrote: Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the God used by both the abramanic

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread meekerdb
On 11/29/2013 6:02 AM, Samiya Illias wrote: Just for the record, I do not personify God. It would be simply speculative and unfair of us to imagine any form of God. All I know is how He briefly introduces Himself as the 'noor' or 'spiritual light' of the heavens and earth. (Quran 24:35) Then w

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread meekerdb
On 11/29/2013 2:09 AM, Samiya Illias wrote: Yes, I know we cannot answer that, but that is due to our lack of knowledge and comprehension of God, and not because God is useless or does not exist. God's presence is perceivable through His creation! Denying God won't change anything, but we may m

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread meekerdb
On 11/29/2013 1:54 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/11/29 Samiya Illias mailto:samiyaill...@gmail.com>> Simple? It takes intelligence and knowledge to write computer program, build a machine, and so on. How can we conclude that the software of life, the creation of the Universe /

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread meekerdb
On 11/29/2013 1:51 AM, Samiya Illias wrote: Simple? It takes intelligence and knowledge to write computer program, build a machine, and so on. How can we conclude that the software of life, the creation of the Universe / multiverse, all just happened on its own, and for no purpose? I don't con

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Samiya Illias
Bruno wrote: 'But thanks to the discovery of the universal machine I have few doubt that I can prove to you (if patient enough) the existence of all the computations in the arithmetical reality. (I might know that already).' Yes, please, I am very keen. Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 29-Nov-

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread meekerdb
On 11/28/2013 10:56 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: I understand that so many deities and faith-systems and all the myths and fantasies in them easily put off any thinking mind. Yet, the more we discover, the closer we get to theorizing about everything, the more difficult it is to believe that everyth

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Samiya Illias
On 29-Nov-2013, at 10:34 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 28 Nov 2013, at 15:29, Samiya Illias wrote: > >> Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They >> did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly >> deformed, notably by the aband

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread spudboy100
V, or Physical Review Letters, for instance. I do give attribution though, attribution which none of these scientists want! Go ahead and kick the crap out of it, and have fun. Mitch -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 12:55 pm Subject:

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: On 11/28/2013 5:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:36, meekerdb wrote: On 11/27/2013 7:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Atheism i

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Nov 2013, at 15:29, Samiya Illias wrote: Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of authoritative arguments,

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Nov 2013, at 17:01, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> the Christian God who is the most unpleasant character in all of fiction. > It really depends on which Christians, which can be very different from one culture to another. I know

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Nov 2013, at 00:58, LizR wrote: On 29 November 2013 03:29, Samiya Illias wrote: Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it,

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
1) Atheists say: Prove to me your existence and I will trust you. God says: Trust me and I will prove to you my existence. Agnostic says: Trust me, neither of you can prove or show the other anything at this point :-) 2) What did the Buddhist say to the atheist pizza chef? "Make me one with ev

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Samiya Illias
Just for the record, I do not personify God. It would be simply speculative and unfair of us to imagine any form of God. All I know is how He briefly introduces Himself as the 'noor' or 'spiritual light' of the heavens and earth. (Quran 24:35) Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 29-Nov-2013, at 3

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > > > 2013/11/27 Telmo Menezes >> >> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Alberto G. Corona >> wrote: >> > All of this demonstrate how little we know about what we are. >> >> Yes, I think most societies underestimate how much they don't kn

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/11/29 Samiya Illias > Yes, I know we cannot answer that, but that is due to our lack of > knowledge and comprehension of God, and not because God is useless > It is. > or does not exist. > The god you talk about (the christian's one) with the long beard, certainly does not exist. > G

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Samiya Illias
Yes, I know we cannot answer that, but that is due to our lack of knowledge and comprehension of God, and not because God is useless or does not exist. God's presence is perceivable through His creation! Denying God won't change anything, but we may miss out on something critically important, to o

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/11/29 Samiya Illias > Simple? It takes intelligence and knowledge to write computer program, > build a machine, and so on. How can we conclude that the software of life, > the creation of the Universe / multiverse, all just happened on its own, > and for no purpose? > > Ask the same thing ab

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Samiya Illias
Simple? It takes intelligence and knowledge to write computer program, build a machine, and so on. How can we conclude that the software of life, the creation of the Universe / multiverse, all just happened on its own, and for no purpose? Consider the following: “Behold! In the creation of the he

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/11/29 Samiya Illias > How is it 'easiest to dismiss'? > Because it is an assumption you add... so keep it simple is easier, so as it adds nothing, and explain nothing about "how can something exists on its own"... well it's easy to dismiss. Quentin > > Samiya > > Sent from my iPhone > >

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-29 Thread Samiya Illias
How is it 'easiest to dismiss'? Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 29-Nov-2013, at 12:32 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > 2013/11/29 Samiya Illias >> I understand that so many deities and faith-systems and all the myths and >> fantasies in them easily put off any thinking mind. Yet, the mo

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/11/29 Samiya Illias > I understand that so many deities and faith-systems and all the myths and > fantasies in them easily put off any thinking mind. Yet, the more we > discover, the closer we get to theorizing about everything, the more > difficult it is to believe that everything just happ

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Samiya Illias
I understand that so many deities and faith-systems and all the myths and fantasies in them easily put off any thinking mind. Yet, the more we discover, the closer we get to theorizing about everything, the more difficult it is to believe that everything just happens on its own. We may not be able

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread LizR
But if *everything's *holy... well, you know the rest. On 29 November 2013 14:02, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: > I don't think size/length of the list matters much, lol! > > Crazy Ginsberg's list was shorter and he and his publishers apparently see > reason for them to exist: > > *Footnote to

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
I don't think size/length of the list matters much, lol! Crazy Ginsberg's list was shorter and he and his publishers apparently see reason for them to exist: *Footnote to Howl* *By Allen Ginsberg * Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! H

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread LizR
On 29 November 2013 09:19, meekerdb wrote: > > I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or > Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, > Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, > Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, A

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread LizR
On 29 November 2013 03:29, Samiya Illias wrote: > Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They > did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly > deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of > authoritative arguments

RE: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Colin Geoffrey Hales
Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Friday, 29 November 2013 7:35 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment On 11/28/2013 6:29 AM, Samiya Illias wrote: > Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did > invented the God used

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread meekerdb
On 11/28/2013 6:29 AM, Samiya Illias wrote: Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of authoritative arguments, by Chri

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread meekerdb
On 11/28/2013 5:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:36, meekerdb wrote: On 11/27/2013 7:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > Atheism is also the belie

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:43, LizR wrote: Noun atheism (plural atheisms) (narrowly) Belief that no deities exist (sometimes including rejection of other religious beliefs). (broadly) Rejection of belief that any deities exist (with or without a belief that no deities exist). (very broadly) Abse

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Samiya Illias
Sure, but before being judgemental and throwing it out of the window, do read the Books of the Abrahamic faiths. Perhaps one of them will pleasantly surprise you :) Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 28-Nov-2013, at 8:54 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > 2013/11/28 Samiya Illias >> Quentin

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Samiya Illias
Quentin wrote: 'Because we are not all loving, omnipotent, omniscient beings and we can *do* evil. If such being(s) existed, it would not allow that, but there is evil...' So if the Loving, Omnipotent and Omniscient Being tells us that this world's life is but a trial, that free-will has b

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> the Christian God who is the most unpleasant character in all of >> fiction. >> > > > It really depends on which Christians, which can be very different from > one culture to another. > I know some people who call themselves Christian b

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/11/28 Samiya Illias > Quentin wrote: 'Because we are not all loving, omnipotent, omniscient > beings and we can *do* evil. If such being(s) existed, it would not > allow that, but there is evil...' > > So if the Loving, Omnipotent and Omniscient Being tells us that this > world's life is

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/11/28 Samiya Illias > Quentin wrote: ' if there was an all loving god, it wouldn't allow for > hell and evil..' > > Why do we need courts and jails and police on Earth if its such an > unloving thing to do justice? > > Because we are not all loving, omnipotent, omniscient beings and we c

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Samiya Illias
Quentin wrote: ' if there was an all loving god, it wouldn't allow for hell and evil..' Why do we need courts and jails and police on Earth if its such an unloving thing to do justice? Samiya Sent from my iPhone On 28-Nov-2013, at 8:18 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > if there was an all lov

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/11/28 Samiya Illias > Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They > did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly > deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of > authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslim

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Samiya Illias
Bruno wrote: 'I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish (w

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:36, meekerdb wrote: On 11/27/2013 7:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife, Those are 2 separate ideas and there is no reason they

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Nov 2013, at 20:04, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > If you are able to conceive a god without afterlife I can conceive of a afterlife without God too. > it means you can conceive a non Christian God, Yes. > which is nice Certainly nicer

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread LizR
Noun *atheism* (*plural* *atheisms *) 1. (narrowly) Belief that no deities exist (sometimes including rejection of other religious beliefs). 2. (broadly) Rejection of belief that any deities exist (with or without a belief that no deitie

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread meekerdb
On 11/27/2013 7:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife, Those are 2 separate ideas and there is no reason they must be linked

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > If you are able to conceive a god without afterlife > I can conceive of a afterlife without God too. > it means you can conceive a non Christian God, > Yes. > which is nice > Certainly nicer than the Christian God who is the most unple

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Nov 2013, at 01:00, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2013 2:49 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 November 2013 11:34, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2013 1:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 November 2013 07:22, meekerdb wrote: Suppose you work for yourself instead of society. Or as George Carlin put it, "If I'm her

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Nov 2013, at 22:14, LizR wrote: On 27 November 2013 06:39, Bruno Marchal wrote: But we don't know that. There is no logical reason there shouldn't be a purpose to life, universes and consciousness. No logical reason, but there's no obvious sign that there is one. I am not sure. Bu

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Nov 2013, at 20:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2013/11/26 meekerdb On 11/26/2013 10:03 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: but personal purpose must be metaphisical. I mean transcendental, beyond our own. Beyond my what?...beyond my purpose. That would be incoherent. Yes. beyond your pur

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Nov 2013, at 19:03, Alberto G. Corona wrote: but personal purpose must be metaphisical. I mean transcendental, beyond our own. Except in the case of people in the edge, that are concerned with its own survival. you can not find meaning working every morning for a society if your so

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Nov 2013, at 19:00, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2013 9:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2013, at 00:32, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 25 November 2013 23:17, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2013/11/25 Stathis Papaioannou On 25 November 2013 12:35:50 am AEDT, Samiya Illias wrote

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife, Those are 2 separate ideas and there is no reason they must be linked. There could be a God and no afterlife or a afterlife and no God; or

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/11/27 Telmo Menezes > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Alberto G. Corona > wrote: > > All of this demonstrate how little we know about what we are. > > Yes, I think most societies underestimate how much they don't know. > It's easy to spot this looking back in History, but it's more rare t

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-27 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > All of this demonstrate how little we know about what we are. Yes, I think most societies underestimate how much they don't know. It's easy to spot this looking back in History, but it's more rare to be able to see the pattern and reali

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread LizR
On 27 November 2013 13:00, meekerdb wrote: > On 11/26/2013 2:49 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 27 November 2013 11:34, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 11/26/2013 1:20 PM, LizR wrote: >> >> On 27 November 2013 07:22, meekerdb wrote: >> >>> >>> Suppose you work for yourself instead of society. Or as George

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread meekerdb
On 11/26/2013 2:49 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 November 2013 11:34, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 11/26/2013 1:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 November 2013 07:22, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: Suppose you work for yourself instead of society. Or as Geo

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread LizR
On 27 November 2013 11:34, meekerdb wrote: > On 11/26/2013 1:20 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 27 November 2013 07:22, meekerdb wrote: > >> >> Suppose you work for yourself instead of society. Or as George Carlin >> put it, "If I'm here for other people, what are those other people here >> for?" > >

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread meekerdb
On 11/26/2013 1:20 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 November 2013 07:22, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: Suppose you work for yourself instead of society. Or as George Carlin put it, "If I'm here for other people, what are those other people here for?" "What has posterity ever d

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread LizR
On 27 November 2013 07:22, meekerdb wrote: > > Suppose you work for yourself instead of society. Or as George Carlin put > it, "If I'm here for other people, what are those other people here for?" > "What has posterity ever done for me?" This is an evolutionary choice between being a loner or

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread LizR
On 27 November 2013 06:39, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > But we don't know that. There is no logical reason there shouldn't be a > purpose to life, universes and consciousness. > No logical reason, but there's no obvious sign that there is one. > And there might be deep reason, yet arithmetical rea

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread meekerdb
On 11/26/2013 11:13 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2013/11/26 meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> On 11/26/2013 10:03 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: but personal purpose must be metaphisical. I mean transcendental, beyond our own. Beyond my what?...beyond my purpose. That

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/11/26 meekerdb > On 11/26/2013 10:03 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > >> but personal purpose must be metaphisical. I mean transcendental, beyond >> our own. >> > > Beyond my what?...beyond my purpose. That would be incoherent. > > Yes. beyond your purpose. > > Except in the case of people

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread meekerdb
On 11/26/2013 10:03 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: but personal purpose must be metaphisical. I mean transcendental, beyond our own. Beyond my what?...beyond my purpose. That would be incoherent. Except in the case of people in the edge, that are concerned with its own survival. Why is sur

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Nov 2013, at 20:08, meekerdb wrote: On 11/24/2013 2:43 PM, LizR wrote: On 25 November 2013 10:53, meekerdb wrote: That isn't a problem at all. It's just like the arguments about the existence of god; first you have to define what you mean by "god" before you can answer whether "g

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona
but personal purpose must be metaphisical. I mean transcendental, beyond our own. Except in the case of people in the edge, that are concerned with its own survival. you can not find meaning working every morning for a society if your society has not a purpose,a plan itself for going along. The n

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread meekerdb
On 11/26/2013 9:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2013, at 00:32, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 25 November 2013 23:17, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2013/11/25 Stathis Papaioannou On 25 November 2013 12:35:50 am AEDT, Samiya Illias wrote: Bruno asks: "Should we search, or not, for

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife, > Those are 2 separate ideas and there is no reason they must be linked. There could be a God and no afterlife or a afterlife and no God; or neither could exist or both could. > which is close to

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread meekerdb
On 11/26/2013 9:28 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Yes , but in a certain way, it is to reduce two mysteries to one by saying that there is a relation between both. It's a common move in philosophy and even in speculative science. Penrose saw that consciousness and quantum gravity are both myster

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 8:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Atheism is wish fulfillment. > To some extent that is true. Imagine for a moment what it would be like if a Christian God did exist, it would be far worse than living in North Korea! Here we have an all powerful demon addicted to flattery

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Concerning the pre nausea and post nausea, I think that a post nauseam society is burning their last fuel, like a star burn heavier and heavier elements until it implodes. In this case, following the game-theoretical logic that I mentioned, the "naked reality" comes from the disbelief in their

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Nov 2013, at 00:32, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 25 November 2013 23:17, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2013/11/25 Stathis Papaioannou On 25 November 2013 12:35:50 am AEDT, Samiya Illias wrote: Bruno asks: "Should we search, or not, for a reason behind the physical reality?" W

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Yes , but in a certain way, it is to reduce two mysteries to one by saying that there is a relation between both. That does makes sense, since an essential part of the mind work is to create improbable things. 2013/11/26 meekerdb > On 11/26/2013 1:04 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > 2013/11/2

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread meekerdb
On 11/26/2013 1:04 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2013/11/26 Alberto G. Corona mailto:agocor...@gmail.com>> I would say that there are only two kinds of explanations: 1 - What we see is so improbable, so everything must exist. only we live in one exceptional corner. UDA, Multiverses

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona
All of this demonstrate how little we know about what we are. I have some interesting hints about all of this I think. And I have to formally demonstrate that, and sorry for the pedantry but, as I said frequently, according with evolutionary game theory, the collective sacrifices are needed for th

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread LizR
Yes, and with comp #2 becomes a serious possibility since minds automatically exist due to arithmetical realism. On 26 November 2013 22:04, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > > > 2013/11/26 Alberto G. Corona > >> I would say that there are only two kinds of explanations: >> >> 1 - What we see is so

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/11/26 Alberto G. Corona > I would say that there are only two kinds of explanations: > > 1 - What we see is so improbable, so everything must exist. only we live > in one exceptional corner. UDA, Multiverses etc. That include Boltzmann > whales > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0371724/quotes?

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I would say that there are only two kinds of explanations: 1 - What we see is so improbable, so everything must exist. only we live in one exceptional corner. UDA, Multiverses etc. That include botlzman whales 2- What we see is so improbable 2013/11/26 Samiya Illias > So the physics of our U

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread LizR
On 26 November 2013 20:19, Samiya Illias wrote: > So the physics of our Universe is fine-tuned to our evolution ? > > No, according to the Weak Anthropic Principle, the physics of our universe should only be *adequate* - that is, it should allow us to evolve but not in any way favour the existenc

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread LizR
On 26 November 2013 17:51, meekerdb wrote: > On 11/25/2013 7:35 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 26 November 2013 15:31, meekerdb wrote: > >> All things I do. >> >> So why does purpose presuppose something like God? In fact I don't see >> that something like God could add or subtract from my purposes

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-26 Thread meekerdb
No, as Steven Weinberg pointed out there will be many more universes which marginally support intelligent life as compared to those which are highly adapted to it. Brent On 11/25/2013 11:19 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: So the physics of our Universe is fine-tuned to our evolution ? Sent from my i

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread Samiya Illias
So the physics of our Universe is fine-tuned to our evolution ? Sent from my iPhone On 26-Nov-2013, at 12:04 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 11/25/2013 10:58 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: >> What do you mean by 'selected by our existence'? > > If, as seems likely, there are infinitely many universes, the

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread meekerdb
On 11/25/2013 10:58 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: What do you mean by 'selected by our existence'? If, as seems likely, there are infinitely many universes, then the weak anthropic principle dictates that we will find ourselves in one in which the physics is such that we could evolve. Brent --

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread Samiya Illias
What do you mean by 'selected by our existence'? Sent from my iPhone On 26-Nov-2013, at 11:46 AM, meekerdb wrote: > On 11/25/2013 10:36 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: >>> OK. But in that case I don't see any reason to think 'life' or 'the >>> universe' has any purpose. >>> >>> Brent >>> The more

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread meekerdb
On 11/25/2013 10:36 PM, Samiya Illias wrote: OK. But in that case I don't see any reason to think 'life' or 'the universe' has any purpose. Brent The more we learn about the universe the more it seems pointless. --- Steven Weinberg Perhaps that is why we need to explore and evaluate the 'di

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread Samiya Illias
> OK. But in that case I don't see any reason to think 'life' or 'the > universe' has any purpose. > > Brent > The more we learn about the universe the more it seems pointless. >--- Steven Weinberg Perhaps that is why we need to explore and evaluate the 'divinely revealed / inspired' books,

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread meekerdb
On 11/25/2013 7:35 PM, LizR wrote: On 26 November 2013 15:31, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: All things I do. So why does purpose presuppose something like God? In fact I don't see that something like God could add or subtract from my purposes - although He might a

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread LizR
On 26 November 2013 15:31, meekerdb wrote: > All things I do. > > So why does purpose presuppose something like God? In fact I don't see > that something like God could add or subtract from my purposes - although > He might affect my methods and whether or not I realized my purposes. > > Becaus

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread meekerdb
On 11/25/2013 3:59 PM, LizR wrote: On 26 November 2013 12:32, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: On 25 November 2013 23:17, Alberto G. Corona mailto:agocor...@gmail.com>> wrote: > 2013/11/25 Stathis Papaioannou mailto:stath...@gmail.com>> >> On 25 November 2013 1

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread LizR
On 26 November 2013 12:32, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On 25 November 2013 23:17, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > 2013/11/25 Stathis Papaioannou > >> On 25 November 2013 12:35:50 am AEDT, Samiya Illias wrote: > >> > >> Bruno asks: "Should we search, or not, for a reason behind the physical > >> r

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 25 November 2013 23:17, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > > > 2013/11/25 Stathis Papaioannou >> >> >> >> >> On 25 November 2013 12:35:50 am AEDT, Samiya Illias wrote: >> >> Bruno asks: "Should we search, or not, for a reason behind the physical >> reality?" >> >> We must, otherwise this life itself

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread meekerdb
On 11/25/2013 4:17 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2013/11/25 Stathis Papaioannou mailto:stath...@gmail.com>> On 25 November 2013 12:35:50 am AEDT, Samiya Illias wrote: Bruno asks: "Should we search, or not, for a reason behind the physical reality?" We must, otherwise this lif

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Nov 2013, at 21:08, John Mikes wrote: Liz: your precise version (with Bruno's rounding it up) makes me evoid to call myself an atheist: An 'atheist' requires god(s) to DENY. In my (rather agnostic) worldview there is no place (requirement) for supernatural (whatever that may be) 'forc

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

2013-11-25 Thread meekerdb
On 11/24/2013 2:43 PM, LizR wrote: On 25 November 2013 10:53, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: That isn't a problem at all. It's just like the arguments about the existence of god; first you have to define what you mean by "god" before you can answer whether "god

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