Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 04 Apr 2012, at 23:46, Joseph Knight wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Apr 4, 2012, at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/4/4 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 04 Apr 2012, at 18:26, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:58 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: snip If any one else can help John K Clark to make his point, please help him. If some people believe, like I begin to believe, that John Clark only fake to not understand, and that I should abandon to try, please give your opinion, because I begin to feel like we are going in circle, I think you should abandon. John Clark does not want to discuss, he suffers the I am the best mind in the world, you moron when in fact he has just shut down his own brain, it's pathetic. I have not been actively participating in this discussion, but I have been reading, and I have to agree here. OK. Thanks for saying. I will try to be charitable, so John Clark, if he answers my last post, might still have some chance to get to the point (the seven step at least). I will probably explain the reasoning from the start on the FOAR list, as some people seems interested. I promise myself to always stick to ideas and arguments, and avoid, here and elsewhere, any posts or paragraphs with dismissive tone, insulting remarks or ad hominem statements. Bruno always coming back with what I see as a confusion between the 3- views on the many 1-views of all doppelgangers, and the 1-views as lived individually by each doppelgangers, and which is on what the probability, asked before the experience begins, is asked. How can John not seen that difference? Is he only joking or what? Any idea? Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You can be conscious of being here and now. This is a key element in our disagreement. I maintain that by itself a consciousness has no way to directly tell the difference between the hear and now and the there and then. For example if you were to build a intelligent brain out of atoms and let it operate for one hour and then destroyed it, and then wait for a billion years and then make another brain identical to the first one out of different atoms and let in operate for one hour interacting with identical environmental conditions, then I would not say that 2 different things were conscious for one hour nor would I say that one thing was conscious for 2 hours, I would say that one thing was conscious for one hour. For this reason even if the eternal return style immortality were proven to be true it would give me no comfort whatsoever. To me this is obvious but many, probably most, think I'm wrong. I guess our brains are wired differently. That expression is traditional, and used in many place, You are unlikely to find the truth in this matter through tradition. I was just saying that consciousness of a localization does not entail the localization of consciousness. In other words you can think about and receive sensory input from a particular place. I agree. From my 3-view I can clearly see that the brain of Bruno Washington is different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, one has memories, that is to say physical changes in the brain, of the sights and sounds of Washington while the other has brain changes signifying the sights and sounds of Moscow; because of the changes in physical structure the two brains operate differently, or to say the same thing with different words, I the third party can see that the mind of Bruno Washington is different from the mind of Bruno Moscow. Provided that Washington is different from Moscow (I've never been to Moscow but I imagine that it is) then the brain of Bruno Washington is physically different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, and I the third party observer can see those physical differences, and if the construction of those two objects are different then the way they operate, the mind, is different too. But this contradict the fact that you agree both person are the Helsinki guy. How in the world is that a contradiction? You are the Bruno Marchal of 5 seconds ago, but if Everett is correct then in some parallel world 4 seconds ago Bruno Marchal turned around and was surprised to see a fully grown Siberian Tiger in the room with him. Both you and Tiger Bruno are the Bruno Marchal of 5 seconds ago, but you are not Tiger Bruno and Tiger Bruno is not you. In fact although the time between the split is not long the two of you are now very different, one had a traumatic experience and one did not, but both remember being Bruno Marchal of 5 seconds ago. I begin to believe, that John Clark only fake to not understand, Bruno, if I thought you had a good idea why would I pretend you did not? Looking for good ideas is the reason I'm on this list. I understand exactly what you're saying, in fact I believe I understand what you're saying better than you do. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 4/5/2012 1:20 PM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You can be conscious of being here and now. This is a key element in our disagreement. I maintain that by itself a consciousness has no way to directly tell the difference between the hear and now and the there and then. For example if you were to build a intelligent brain out of atoms and let it operate for one hour and then destroyed it, and then wait for a billion years and then make another brain identical to the first one out of different atoms and let in operate for one hour interacting with identical environmental conditions, then I would not say that 2 different things were conscious for one hour nor would I say that one thing was conscious for 2 hours, I would say that one thing was conscious for one hour. Suppose that the environmental conditions were identical only for the first 50min of the hour. For the last ten minutes one interacted with Washington and the other interacted with Moscow. The you would say there was one thing which was conscious for 50min and then it became two things one of which was conscious of Washington and one of which was conscious of Moscow. Right? And both those consciousness'es could access identical memories of the first 50min. So if one remembers thinking, I hope to see Washington. the other will remember the same thing. But only one of the two will feel its hope has been realized. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 4:30 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Suppose that the environmental conditions were identical only for the first 50min of the hour. Then the split happened after 50min, obviously. And both those consciousness'es could access identical memories of the first 50min. Obviously. So if one remembers thinking, I hope to see Washington. the other will remember the same thing. But only one of the two will feel its hope has been realized. So Brent will be happy and Brent will be sad, a perfectly logical state to be in because BRENT HAS BEEN DUPLICATED. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 04 Apr 2012, at 06:05, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:06 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The point is that comp predicts white noise. That something else predicts white noise too is not relevant in the proof. So in the setup the screen changes at RANDOM and comp predicts white noise will be the most likely result, and you think that is significant? The WM setup and the Universal waves are deterministic. Everything predicts that. OK, then I have a marvelous new thought experiment, let X = Y. I maintain that comp predicts that X= Y and I have made a wonderful new discovery too. you should expect the WM duplication as equivalent with the throw of a random coin, etc. But you don't need to agree with that analysis. You need only to agree that there is an indeterminacy Of course there is a indeterminacy! Don't say of course. That is not so obvious as your posts illustrates. it's not obvious that the outcome of a RANDOM coin flip is uncertain? I thought it was. I was clearly talking about the duplication. In the 3-view there is no randomness at all. In the protocol, we don't change the pixels randomly, neither in the comp multiplication- movie experience, nor in the quantum wave which evolves deterministically. The point is that the randomness bears on the first person experiences. We get this directly with comp, without assuming QM. Nothing new. People have only known about Quantum Mechanics for about a century but they've known about randomness for many thousands of years. And you've made randomness a measure of ignorance rather than a property of the thing itself and that's how it should be, and what people have always done. This is demonstrated by the Monty Hall problem, a new car is behind one door and a goat behind the other two, you pick a door at random and Monty opens a door you didn't pick and shows you a goat and gives you the opportunity to change your choice of a door if you wish. Monty knows what door the prize is behind and you do not, so Monty could pick the correct door with a probability of 100% but the best you can do at first is 33.3%, after he lest you change your choice and pick another door you know a little more and your probability increases to 66.6%, Monty's probability stays at 100% and the thing itself, the new car, has no probability at all. Incidentally the great mathematician Paul Erdos admitted he could never get his head around the Monty Hall problem and it always seemed paradoxical to him, this despite him having no trouble whatsoever in understanding many other things of staggering complexity and of far greater abstraction. It's weird. He got it eventually, when asked the same question with a bigger number of boxes. But there is nothing relevant to the question I am asking you. so if I told you before the duplication that you would see Washington AND Moscow I would be correct, Bruno Marshal will indeed see both cities. That the 3-view on the 1-view. And that should be more than good enough thank you very much! Why did you change Marchal into Marshal in the quote? But the probabilities bears on the 1-views themselves. As I've said many many times before, give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument, do that and I will publicly declare you've made a major philosophical discovery. Just one example is all I ask. I think this is the key to our disagreement. The duplication. After the duplication In the 3 view I am in both cities In the 1-view I feel oneself in only one city. Another example is in the step 2. In fact you ask me what I give in each step, and you don't see it because you persistently confuse them. You can ascribe the consciousness of Bruno Marshal to both, but each one will ascribe their present here and now type of consciousness only to themselves subjectively. Why did you change Marchal into Marshal again in the quote? I don't know what here and now type of consciousness is. We both agree that speaking of consciousness occupying a place in space has little meaning and I would argue a absolute time for a consciousness is not a productive idea either. You could freeze a mind for a billion years and then start it up again and it wouldn't notice it unless it has senses that can detect the outside world, and even then the mind couldn't tell if it had stopped for a billion years or what it was looking at had jumped ahead a billion years. You confuse consciousness of being here and now with consciousness would be here and now. Asking why you are the Moscow man not the Washington man is exactly like asking why you are Bruno Marshal and not John K Clark. Possible. I do agree with this. But there is a difference. John and Bruno have already differentiated.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:58 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You confuse consciousness of being here and now with consciousness would be here and now. How in the world could anybody be confused by a idea stated as crystal clearly as you just did ? And the only answer you can receive will come from a trivial application of the anthropic principle, I will become the Moscow man if events transpire so that I meet the definition of the Moscow man, namely that I see Moscow. Which avoids again to answer to the question asked. The reason I'm not the Moscow man is that I'm the Washington man and the reason I'm the Washington man is that I saw Washington and the probability the Helsinki man will see Moscow and Washington is 100%. What more is there to say on this rather dull subject? I repeat yet again, give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument I have been duplicated in W and M and I feel myself in W. or I have been duplicated in W and M and i feel myself in M. Those are different in the 1-views (as different as seeing M and seeing W), Right. But are equal in the 3-view, where I am in both cities. WRONG! From my 3-view I can clearly see that the brain of Bruno Washington is different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, one has memories, that is to say physical changes in the brain, of the sights and sounds of Washington while the other has brain changes signifying the sights and sounds of Moscow; because of the changes in physical structure the two brains operate differently, or to say the same thing with different words, I the third party can see that the mind of Bruno Washington is different from the mind of Bruno Moscow. Provided that Washington is different from Moscow (I've never been to Moscow but I imagine that it is) then the brain of Bruno Washington is physically different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, and I the third party observer can see those physical differences, and if the construction of those two objects are different then the way they operate, the mind, is different too. Try again. Give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument. Who cares? How is it relevant to the copies if the original is cut or not cut as long as he's read? If the original is cut, the probability to wake up at Helsinki is 0. But the Helsinki man is not a copy, it's irrelevant to the copies in Moscow and Washington what happens to the original. By comp we can simulate Moscow and Washington precisely enough so that you cannot see the difference for some non null interval. The question is do you agree that this does not change the evaluation of the indeterminacy? Yes I agree it does not change, this 1-view indeterminacy of yours is nonsense if the cities are real and its nonsense if the cities are virtual. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 04 Apr 2012, at 18:26, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:58 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You confuse consciousness of being here and now with consciousness would be here and now. How in the world could anybody be confused by a idea stated as crystal clearly as you just did ? You can be conscious of being here and now. That expression is traditional, and used in many place, and we have already used it to illustrate the fact that the cnscious feeling here and now is undoubtable, as opposed to the idea that being conscious five minutes ago and five minutes from now is already doubtable, and you did agree. I was just saying that consciousness of a localization does not entail the localization of consciousness. You argument was confusing those two different thing. We agree that consciousness is not something localisable, but this does not entail that we cannot have a conscious experience of being localised somewhere, like when we say I visited Bombay last week-end. And the only answer you can receive will come from a trivial application of the anthropic principle, I will become the Moscow man if events transpire so that I meet the definition of the Moscow man, namely that I see Moscow. Which avoids again to answer to the question asked. The reason I'm not the Moscow man is that I'm the Washington man and the reason I'm the Washington man is that I saw Washington and the probability the Helsinki man will see Moscow and Washington is 100%. What more is there to say on this rather dull subject? That you give the probability that the guy will be in W and M from a third person point of view, when we ask the probability on his future first person point of view. the criteria of confirmation is given, by definition, from the result of the self-localization provided by the persons after their duplication. In that case, it cannot be 100%, because the guy in M does not feel himself to be in W, and vice versa. You still confuse the 3-view on the 1-views (an outsider can ascribe the consciousness of John K Clark to both persons in each city), with the 1-views on the 1-views (Ah, I see I am the one in W and Ah, I see I am the one in M). In Helsinki, he could not know in advance which one he can happen to be. If you think he could, give me the algorithm. I repeat yet again, give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument I have been duplicated in W and M and I feel myself in W. or I have been duplicated in W and M and i feel myself in M. Those are different in the 1-views (as different as seeing M and seeing W), Right. But are equal in the 3-view, where I am in both cities. WRONG! From my 3-view I can clearly see that the brain of Bruno Washington is different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, one has memories, that is to say physical changes in the brain, of the sights and sounds of Washington while the other has brain changes signifying the sights and sounds of Moscow; because of the changes in physical structure the two brains operate differently, or to say the same thing with different words, I the third party can see that the mind of Bruno Washington is different from the mind of Bruno Moscow. Provided that Washington is different from Moscow (I've never been to Moscow but I imagine that it is) then the brain of Bruno Washington is physically different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, and I the third party observer can see those physical differences, and if the construction of those two objects are different then the way they operate, the mind, is different too. But this contradict the fact that you agree both person are the Helsinki guy. You are again transforming I cannot know for sure I will feel myself in W or M with I can be sure that the guy in M will see M and the guy in W will see W, which is does not answer the question in asked to him in Helsinki. Try again. Give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument. Who cares? How is it relevant to the copies if the original is cut or not cut as long as he's read? If the original is cut, the probability to wake up at Helsinki is 0. But the Helsinki man is not a copy, it's irrelevant to the copies in Moscow and Washington what happens to the original. Of course, but the question is asked before the reading is done. The question is asked to the guy in Helsinki before the experiment is done. So the probability is 1/3, instead of 1/2 in the preceding WM duplication with annihilation of the original. It is equivalent to a multiplication by three, with a null delay of reconstitution on one branch. Isn't it? By comp we can simulate Moscow and Washington precisely enough so
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
2012/4/4 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 04 Apr 2012, at 18:26, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:58 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You confuse consciousness of being here and now with consciousness would be here and now. How in the world could anybody be confused by a idea stated as crystal clearly as you just did ? You can be conscious of being here and now. That expression is traditional, and used in many place, and we have already used it to illustrate the fact that the cnscious feeling here and now is undoubtable, as opposed to the idea that being conscious five minutes ago and five minutes from now is already doubtable, and you did agree. I was just saying that consciousness of a localization does not entail the localization of consciousness. You argument was confusing those two different thing. We agree that consciousness is not something localisable, but this does not entail that we cannot have a conscious experience of being localised somewhere, like when we say I visited Bombay last week-end. And the only answer you can receive will come from a trivial application of the anthropic principle, I will become the Moscow man if events transpire so that I meet the definition of the Moscow man, namely that I see Moscow. Which avoids again to answer to the question asked. The reason I'm not the Moscow man is that I'm the Washington man and the reason I'm the Washington man is that I saw Washington and the probability the Helsinki man will see Moscow and Washington is 100%. What more is there to say on this rather dull subject? That you give the probability that the guy will be in W and M from a third person point of view, when we ask the probability on his future first person point of view. the criteria of confirmation is given, by definition, from the result of the self-localization provided by the persons after their duplication. In that case, it cannot be 100%, because the guy in M does not feel himself to be in W, and vice versa. You still confuse the 3-view on the 1-views (an outsider can ascribe the consciousness of John K Clark to both persons in each city), with the 1-views on the 1-views (Ah, I see I am the one in W and Ah, I see I am the one in M). In Helsinki, he could not know in advance which one he can happen to be. If you think he could, give me the algorithm. I repeat yet again, give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument I have been duplicated in W and M and I feel myself in W. or I have been duplicated in W and M and i feel myself in M. Those are different in the 1-views (as different as seeing M and seeing W), Right. But are equal in the 3-view, where I am in both cities. WRONG! From my 3-view I can clearly see that the brain of Bruno Washington is different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, one has memories, that is to say physical changes in the brain, of the sights and sounds of Washington while the other has brain changes signifying the sights and sounds of Moscow; because of the changes in physical structure the two brains operate differently, or to say the same thing with different words, I the third party can see that the mind of Bruno Washington is different from the mind of Bruno Moscow. Provided that Washington is different from Moscow (I've never been to Moscow but I imagine that it is) then the brain of Bruno Washington is physically different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, and I the third party observer can see those physical differences, and if the construction of those two objects are different then the way they operate, the mind, is different too. But this contradict the fact that you agree both person are the Helsinki guy. You are again transforming I cannot know for sure I will feel myself in W or M with I can be sure that the guy in M will see M and the guy in W will see W, which is does not answer the question in asked to him in Helsinki. Try again. Give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument. Who cares? How is it relevant to the copies if the original is cut or not cut as long as he's read? If the original is cut, the probability to wake up at Helsinki is 0. But the Helsinki man is not a copy, it's irrelevant to the copies in Moscow and Washington what happens to the original. Of course, but the question is asked before the reading is done. The question is asked to the guy in Helsinki before the experiment is done. So the probability is 1/3, instead of 1/2 in the preceding WM duplication with annihilation of the original. It is equivalent to a multiplication by three, with a null delay of reconstitution on one branch. Isn't it? By comp we can simulate Moscow and Washington precisely enough
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 4/4/2012 10:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Apr 2012, at 18:26, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:58 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You confuse consciousness of being here and now with consciousness would be here and now. How in the world could anybody be confused by a idea stated as crystal clearly as you just did ? You can be conscious of being here and now. That expression is traditional, and used in many place, and we have already used it to illustrate the fact that the cnscious feeling here and now is undoubtable, as opposed to the idea that being conscious five minutes ago and five minutes from now is already doubtable, and you did agree. I was just saying that consciousness of a localization does not entail the localization of consciousness. You argument was confusing those two different thing. We agree that consciousness is not something localisable, but this does not entail that we cannot have a conscious experience of being localised somewhere, like when we say I visited Bombay last week-end. And the only answer you can receive will come from a trivial application of the anthropic principle, I will become the Moscow man if events transpire so that I meet the definition of the Moscow man, namely that I see Moscow. Which avoids again to answer to the question asked. The reason I'm not the Moscow man is that I'm the Washington man and the reason I'm the Washington man is that I saw Washington and the probability the Helsinki man will see Moscow and Washington is 100%. What more is there to say on this rather dull subject? That you give the probability that the guy will be in W and M from a third person point of view, when we ask the probability on his future first person point of view. the criteria of confirmation is given, by definition, from the result of the self-localization provided by the persons after their duplication. In that case, it cannot be 100%, because the guy in M does not feel himself to be in W, and vice versa. You still confuse the 3-view on the 1-views (an outsider can ascribe the consciousness of John K Clark to both persons in each city), with the 1-views on the 1-views (Ah, I see I am the one in W and Ah, I see I am the one in M). In Helsinki, he could not know in advance which one he can happen to be. If you think he could, give me the algorithm. I repeat yet again, give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument I have been duplicated in W and M and I feel myself in W. or I have been duplicated in W and M and i feel myself in M. Those are different in the 1-views (as different as seeing M and seeing W), Right. But are equal in the 3-view, where I am in both cities. WRONG! From my 3-view I can clearly see that the brain of Bruno Washington is different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, one has memories, that is to say physical changes in the brain, of the sights and sounds of Washington while the other has brain changes signifying the sights and sounds of Moscow; because of the changes in physical structure the two brains operate differently, or to say the same thing with different words, I the third party can see that the mind of Bruno Washington is different from the mind of Bruno Moscow. Provided that Washington is different from Moscow (I've never been to Moscow but I imagine that it is) then the brain of Bruno Washington is physically different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, and I the third party observer can see those physical differences, and if the construction of those two objects are different then the way they operate, the mind, is different too. But this contradict the fact that you agree both person are the Helsinki guy. You are again transforming I cannot know for sure I will feel myself in W or M with I can be sure that the guy in M will see M and the guy in W will see W, which is does not answer the question in asked to him in Helsinki. Try again. Give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument. Who cares? How is it relevant to the copies if the original is cut or not cut as long as he's read? If the original is cut, the probability to wake up at Helsinki is 0. But the Helsinki man is not a copy, it's irrelevant to the copies in Moscow and Washington what happens to the original. Of course, but the question is asked before the reading is done. The question is asked to the guy in Helsinki before the experiment is done. So the probability is 1/3, instead of 1/2 in the preceding WM duplication with annihilation of the original. It is equivalent to a multiplication by three, with a null delay of reconstitution on one
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 04 Apr 2012, at 20:45, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/4/4 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be If any one else can help John K Clark to make his point, please help him. If some people believe, like I begin to believe, that John Clark only fake to not understand, and that I should abandon to try, please give your opinion, because I begin to feel like we are going in circle, I think you should abandon. John Clark does not want to discuss, he suffers the I am the best mind in the world, you moron when in fact he has just shut down his own brain, it's pathetic. It looks like that. Now, in my experience I have rarely met someone stopping at step 3, and arguing for that. Those who stop at step three usually consider that any text containing the word consciousness is crackpot and rarely try to argue. This makes John Clark rather exceptional. But then he does not succeed in explaining what he fails to understand, and its dismissive tone make me suspect that he might be psychologically stuck somehow. I still think he might get the haha at the seven step. I might still try a little bit. Feel free to comment his answer. I appreciate your short notes which are very often quite clear. There has been another exception. A friend of mine took 4 years to get the point, and that he told me he would have prefer not to know! That reaction might suggest psychological difficulties, and looks similar to the reaction of many people after smoking Salvia. Fundamental science needs more courage than smartness, I think. Bruno always coming back with what I see as a confusion between the 3- views on the many 1-views of all doppelgangers, and the 1-views as lived individually by each doppelgangers, and which is on what the probability, asked before the experience begins, is asked. How can John not seen that difference? Is he only joking or what? Any idea? Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 04 Apr 2012, at 21:04, David Nyman wrote: On 4 April 2012 18:55, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: If any one else can help John K Clark to make his point, please help him. If some people believe, like I begin to believe, that John Clark only fake to not understand, and that I should abandon to try, please give your opinion, because I begin to feel like we are going in circle, always coming back with what I see as a confusion between the 3-views on the many 1-views of all doppelgangers, and the 1-views as lived individually by each doppelgangers, and which is on what the probability, asked before the experience begins, is asked. How can John not seen that difference? Is he only joking or what? Any idea? It's not entirely clear to me that John is more committed to clarifying the issues than to trying to make a fool of you. I'm beginning to suspect the latter might be the case, though I would prefer to be charitable in my assessment of the motives of anyone who commits so much time to posting on this list. I try to be charitable, but then I am afraid that people will get bored, especially when we get into circle. As for helping, I notice that he hasn't commented on any of the points I raised in my recent post in this regard, though others have done so. Yes. I should perhaps wait that he answers your posts. As someone once remarked, the obvious can be elusive, Well said. so disagreement is no problem, On the contrary. It is the reason of the discussion. but there must be an underlying commitment to seriousness and respect for the dialogue to be fruitful. And this is the hard part to judge. That's why I was asking. I will try to be a bit charitable, but I am also trying to understand why people can stuck themselves so much, despite showing that they can reason. Thanks for the help, Bruno On 04 Apr 2012, at 18:26, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:58 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You confuse consciousness of being here and now with consciousness would be here and now. How in the world could anybody be confused by a idea stated as crystal clearly as you just did ? You can be conscious of being here and now. That expression is traditional, and used in many place, and we have already used it to illustrate the fact that the cnscious feeling here and now is undoubtable, as opposed to the idea that being conscious five minutes ago and five minutes from now is already doubtable, and you did agree. I was just saying that consciousness of a localization does not entail the localization of consciousness. You argument was confusing those two different thing. We agree that consciousness is not something localisable, but this does not entail that we cannot have a conscious experience of being localised somewhere, like when we say I visited Bombay last week- end. And the only answer you can receive will come from a trivial application of the anthropic principle, I will become the Moscow man if events transpire so that I meet the definition of the Moscow man, namely that I see Moscow. Which avoids again to answer to the question asked. The reason I'm not the Moscow man is that I'm the Washington man and the reason I'm the Washington man is that I saw Washington and the probability the Helsinki man will see Moscow and Washington is 100%. What more is there to say on this rather dull subject? That you give the probability that the guy will be in W and M from a third person point of view, when we ask the probability on his future first person point of view. the criteria of confirmation is given, by definition, from the result of the self-localization provided by the persons after their duplication. In that case, it cannot be 100%, because the guy in M does not feel himself to be in W, and vice versa. You still confuse the 3-view on the 1-views (an outsider can ascribe the consciousness of John K Clark to both persons in each city), with the 1-views on the 1-views (Ah, I see I am the one in W and Ah, I see I am the one in M). In Helsinki, he could not know in advance which one he can happen to be. If you think he could, give me the algorithm. I repeat yet again, give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument I have been duplicated in W and M and I feel myself in W. or I have been duplicated in W and M and i feel myself in M. Those are different in the 1-views (as different as seeing M and seeing W), Right. But are equal in the 3-view, where I am in both cities. WRONG! From my 3-view I can clearly see that the brain of Bruno Washington is different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, one has memories, that is to say physical changes in the brain, of the sights and sounds of Washington while the other has brain
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 04 Apr 2012, at 21:52, meekerdb wrote: On 4/4/2012 10:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Apr 2012, at 18:26, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:58 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: snip By comp we can simulate Moscow and Washington precisely enough so that you cannot see the difference for some non null interval. The question is do you agree that this does not change the evaluation of the indeterminacy? Yes I agree it does not change, this 1-view indeterminacy of yours is nonsense if the cities are real You have not shown that. It is non sense for you because you keep avoiding the difference between the 3-view-on-1-view, and the 1-view themselves (or 1-view on 1-view). You oscillate between trivial, non sense, and 100%. I can't figure out what is your objection. and its nonsense if the cities are virtual. The question is asked. If you believe in comp, you know that after the duplication you will not feel to be in two places at once, so it makes sense to evaluate (or to try to evaluate) the chance that you will be in this or that city. If you say 100% for Washington, by definition of the 1-views, the you-in-Moscow will have to admit having been wrong, and vice versa. Likewise, in the multiplication movie experience, the white-noise movie is far more probable that seeing any particular movie, because the majority of the John K Clark will see such random movie. Just keep in mind that the question is asked always before the duplication experience and that the answer you give before the experience is verified by interviewing all the resulting person about their personal experiences, not about the experience of their doppelgangers. So I ask you again what is the probability that you will actually live the experience seeing the movie flying circus in the multiplication movie experience. remember that by definition, to verify your answer, I will ask to each John K Clark which movie they have actually seen and ask them if that confirms their prediction. the answer all movie is already no more possible, because you already know, by comp, that you, any of your yous, will feel to see only one movie. I notice that it seems clear enough if you just duplicate the diary. Right. It is the point of approximating the first person experience by the memory or the diary. So it reduces the 1/3 distinction into going through the teletransportation or just looking at it from outside. And for the probability, you can replace the human observer by an inference inductive machine. The whole UDA can be done in the third person way. You write This diary will be in Washtington. and then when there are two diaries, the one in Washington is right and the one is Moscow in wrong. The diaries don't need to experience anything. As macroscopic objects they have definite spacetime locations and don't exist in a M+W superposition. The use of indicial pronouns only produces a little semantic confusion. I think John's presentation of his thought experiment is wrong - although it's logically possible, it's nomologically impossible and not just technologically. Creating two copies of a person must be two distinguishable copies just by position and instantaneously swapping their positions is not nomologically possible. Somewhat the same problem affects the transporter thought experiment. There will necessarily be a discontinuity between the copies and the original - both in body and in consciousness. But such a discontinuity is relative to the implementation, and accepted as part of accepting that the brain is digital. So it is not clear if consciousness can see that discontinuity, except by the bare fact of being in a place and then in another one. More realistic real duplication would need encoding time, reconstitution time, but those becomes non relevant at the step seven. I don't think that's fatal to Bruno's argument, but we need to get through the argument to see what aspects of the thought experiment it actually relies on and which are otiose. Excellent point. A scientist rarely stops when he does not get a point, he always continue, because the next steps can indeed clarify what is or not missing, or important, in previous points. The fact that John talks like he found a fatal flaw let me suspect he want to dismiss the reasoning at the start. And his tone is ad hominem, which can be a bit boring at time. I don't want to dream about the number of posts needed to explain the step 8 to him ... And I am afraid he will not appreciate the abstract theory of intelligence which profiles on the comp horizon, and which almost equates intelligence with modesty ... Hmm ... If any one else can help John K Clark to make his point, please help him. If some people believe, like I begin to believe, that John Clark only fake to not
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
Sent from my iPhone On Apr 4, 2012, at 1:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/4/4 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 04 Apr 2012, at 18:26, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:58 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You confuse consciousness of being here and now with consciousness would be here and now. How in the world could anybody be confused by a idea stated as crystal clearly as you just did ? You can be conscious of being here and now. That expression is traditional, and used in many place, and we have already used it to illustrate the fact that the cnscious feeling here and now is undoubtable, as opposed to the idea that being conscious five minutes ago and five minutes from now is already doubtable, and you did agree. I was just saying that consciousness of a localization does not entail the localization of consciousness. You argument was confusing those two different thing. We agree that consciousness is not something localisable, but this does not entail that we cannot have a conscious experience of being localised somewhere, like when we say I visited Bombay last week-end. And the only answer you can receive will come from a trivial application of the anthropic principle, I will become the Moscow man if events transpire so that I meet the definition of the Moscow man, namely that I see Moscow. Which avoids again to answer to the question asked. The reason I'm not the Moscow man is that I'm the Washington man and the reason I'm the Washington man is that I saw Washington and the probability the Helsinki man will see Moscow and Washington is 100%. What more is there to say on this rather dull subject? That you give the probability that the guy will be in W and M from a third person point of view, when we ask the probability on his future first person point of view. the criteria of confirmation is given, by definition, from the result of the self-localization provided by the persons after their duplication. In that case, it cannot be 100%, because the guy in M does not feel himself to be in W, and vice versa. You still confuse the 3-view on the 1-views (an outsider can ascribe the consciousness of John K Clark to both persons in each city), with the 1-views on the 1-views (Ah, I see I am the one in W and Ah, I see I am the one in M). In Helsinki, he could not know in advance which one he can happen to be. If you think he could, give me the algorithm. I repeat yet again, give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument I have been duplicated in W and M and I feel myself in W. or I have been duplicated in W and M and i feel myself in M. Those are different in the 1-views (as different as seeing M and seeing W), Right. But are equal in the 3-view, where I am in both cities. WRONG! From my 3-view I can clearly see that the brain of Bruno Washington is different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, one has memories, that is to say physical changes in the brain, of the sights and sounds of Washington while the other has brain changes signifying the sights and sounds of Moscow; because of the changes in physical structure the two brains operate differently, or to say the same thing with different words, I the third party can see that the mind of Bruno Washington is different from the mind of Bruno Moscow. Provided that Washington is different from Moscow (I've never been to Moscow but I imagine that it is) then the brain of Bruno Washington is physically different from the brain of Bruno Moscow, and I the third party observer can see those physical differences, and if the construction of those two objects are different then the way they operate, the mind, is different too. But this contradict the fact that you agree both person are the Helsinki guy. You are again transforming I cannot know for sure I will feel myself in W or M with I can be sure that the guy in M will see M and the guy in W will see W, which is does not answer the question in asked to him in Helsinki. Try again. Give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument. Who cares? How is it relevant to the copies if the original is cut or not cut as long as he's read? If the original is cut, the probability to wake up at Helsinki is 0. But the Helsinki man is not a copy, it's irrelevant to the copies in Moscow and Washington what happens to the original. Of course, but the question is asked before the reading is done. The question is asked to the guy in Helsinki before the experiment is done. So the probability is 1/3, instead of 1/2 in the preceding WM duplication with annihilation of the original.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 02 Apr 2012, at 18:14, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: you've added tons of bells and whistles but for all the complex convolutions you have not added one single bit of additional information about what is likely to happen. On the contrary, comp entails that you should expect white noice for the multiplication movie experience But non-comp predicts exactly the same thing simply because the number of states the screen can be in that we would put in the category white noise is far greater than the number of states we would put in the Monty Python movie category; and this would be true even if the Bible thumpers were right about the soul and consciousness, which means your thought experiment and all the numerous copies of you are a useless complication in investigating these questions. The point is that comp predicts white noise. That something else predicts white noise too is not relevant in the proof. that you should expect the WM duplication as equivalent with the throw of a random coin, etc. But you don't need to agree with that analysis. You need only to agree that there is an indeterminacy Of course there is a indeterminacy! Don't say of course. That is not so obvious as your posts illustrates. After all, officially the thesis has been rejected (in Brussels, before it being accepted in Lille) at step 3. This might be enough to say that it is new, and not understood so quickly by many. A key part of your thought experiment is that a million pixels on a screen change at RANDOM 60 times a second from black to white for 2 hours, In the 3-view there is no randomness at all. In the protocol, we don't change the pixels randomly, neither in the comp multiplication-movie experience, nor in the quantum wave which evolves deterministically. The point is that the randomness bears on the first person experiences. We get this directly with comp, without assuming QM. being RANDOM you can't (or at least should not) be certain what you'll see on the screen. If Everett is right the indeterminacy is purely a measure of lack of information on your part and that information exists you just don't have it. If you knew what branch of the multiverse you were in, what particular universe you were in, you'd know for certain what you were going to see on that screen; if you are in a Monty Python branch you will see a Monty Python movie and if you're in a white noise branch you'll see white noise. Once again your 1-view indeterminacy brings nothing new to the mix. What is new is that we get it without postulating quantum physics. It is not so new, I publish it in the 80 (and make it public before in many conferences). But the question is not if it is new or not. The question is do you get the point of step 3, which shows that comp entails that objective indeterminacy on the subjective experiences. (Note also that objective is used temporarily. later we will see that physically objective is not a 1-view, but a 1-plural view. yet, at this stage, we can use objective, because it refers only to the content of a diary of an outsider looking at the experience without doing it himself). I can hear you say, but that's the point, you don't know what branch you are in until you see white noise or Monty Python on that screen. But according to Everett until you see something unique on that screen that nobody else in any universe sees you are not in that branch because that branch does not exist, seeing Monty Python is exactly what makes it the Monty Python branch. There is a little nuance, the one between duplication of worlds or differentiation of worlds. But it is not really relevant at this stage. So indeed, that's the point. But note that comp does not assume QM, yet explains the existence of a phenomenologically similar indeterminacy. So I think we could move on step 4. You cannot stop in a middle on a proof on the pretext that you have learn nothing. I can understand your desire to gloss over this major difficulty ? I thought you just grasped it. What major difficulty? The only one you have ever mentionned as been shown to be a confusion of 1-view and 3- view (or on the 3-view on the 1-views, and the 1-views themselves. Reread perhaps the preceding posts). and move on, but I feel that if a proof has made a blunder it's pointless to read more. Which blunder? There is a difference between anything can happen in the reality, and anything can happen in the next moment. And what difference is that? The conditional probabilities. Everett, and also comp (as you will see later) predict that everything (consistent) happens, but with different relative probability. If I put water on the gas, there are worlds where it freeze, and there are worlds where it boils hot. To take a decision I need to have trust that I
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 02 Apr 2012, at 18:40, meekerdb wrote: On 4/2/2012 9:14 AM, John Clark wrote: If Everett is right the probability must be derived from the statistics of measurements *as described by the wave evolution*. If Everett is right then you can use the square of the absolute value of the Schrodinger Wave Equation to help you guess which branch you are in, he says it's the best guess you can make with the limited information you have at your disposal, it's not perfect but it's the best we can do. However if Everett is right everything that can happen to you will happen to you somewhere in some branch of the multiverse. Except there is the same equivocation on you as in Bruno's transporter. Exactly. Quentin has already done that remark, and it is a bit of a mystery that John seems to have no problem for the QM indeterminacy in Everett QM, and seems to have a problem in the comp classical frame. As David points out, John Clark did understand step 3, at some point. I think this too. Then he seems unable to acknowledge it, and he comes back with his confusion between 3-view on 1-views and the 1-views themselves. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:06 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The point is that comp predicts white noise. That something else predicts white noise too is not relevant in the proof. So in the setup the screen changes at RANDOM and comp predicts white noise will be the most likely result, and you think that is significant? Everything predicts that. OK, then I have a marvelous new thought experiment, let X = Y. I maintain that comp predicts that X= Y and I have made a wonderful new discovery too. you should expect the WM duplication as equivalent with the throw of a random coin, etc. But you don't need to agree with that analysis. You need only to agree that there is an indeterminacy Of course there is a indeterminacy! Don't say of course. That is not so obvious as your posts illustrates. it's not obvious that the outcome of a RANDOM coin flip is uncertain? I thought it was. In the 3-view there is no randomness at all. In the protocol, we don't change the pixels randomly, neither in the comp multiplication-movie experience, nor in the quantum wave which evolves deterministically. The point is that the randomness bears on the first person experiences. We get this directly with comp, without assuming QM. Nothing new. People have only known about Quantum Mechanics for about a century but they've known about randomness for many thousands of years. And you've made randomness a measure of ignorance rather than a property of the thing itself and that's how it should be, and what people have always done. This is demonstrated by the Monty Hall problem, a new car is behind one door and a goat behind the other two, you pick a door at random and Monty opens a door you didn't pick and shows you a goat and gives you the opportunity to change your choice of a door if you wish. Monty knows what door the prize is behind and you do not, so Monty could pick the correct door with a probability of 100% but the best you can do at first is 33.3%, after he lest you change your choice and pick another door you know a little more and your probability increases to 66.6%, Monty's probability stays at 100% and the thing itself, the new car, has no probability at all. Incidentally the great mathematician Paul Erdos admitted he could never get his head around the Monty Hall problem and it always seemed paradoxical to him, this despite him having no trouble whatsoever in understanding many other things of staggering complexity and of far greater abstraction. It's weird. so if I told you before the duplication that you would see Washington AND Moscow I would be correct, Bruno Marshal will indeed see both cities. That the 3-view on the 1-view. And that should be more than good enough thank you very much! But the probabilities bears on the 1-views themselves. As I've said many many times before, give me a single concrete example of two things being identical by the 3-view but not by the 1-views themselves and you will have won this argument, do that and I will publicly declare you've made a major philosophical discovery. Just one example is all I ask. I think this is the key to our disagreement. You can ascribe the consciousness of Bruno Marshal to both, but each one will ascribe their present here and now type of consciousness only to themselves subjectively. I don't know what here and now type of consciousness is. We both agree that speaking of consciousness occupying a place in space has little meaning and I would argue a absolute time for a consciousness is not a productive idea either. You could freeze a mind for a billion years and then start it up again and it wouldn't notice it unless it has senses that can detect the outside world, and even then the mind couldn't tell if it had stopped for a billion years or what it was looking at had jumped ahead a billion years. Asking why you are the Moscow man not the Washington man is exactly like asking why you are Bruno Marshal and not John K Clark. Possible. I do agree with this. But there is a difference. John and Bruno have already differentiated. But in the WM duplication experience, we duplicate instantaneous computational state by a special duplicator machine, so that we can ask the question to the guy before the duplication. And the only answer you can receive will come from a trivial application of the anthropic principle, I will become the Moscow man if events transpire so that I meet the definition of the Moscow man, namely that I see Moscow. you can give no examples where according to the 3-view things are identical but according to the 1-view they are not, although it's easy to find examples where according to the 1-view things are identical but by the 3-view they are not. That's my point. I really wish it was. So you grasp very well the difference between 1-view and 3-view. Yes. so I have no clue what difficulties you seem to have but never succeed to convey. Then I will give you a clue of
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: you've added tons of bells and whistles but for all the complex convolutions you have not added one single bit of additional information about what is likely to happen. On the contrary, comp entails that you should expect white noice for the multiplication movie experience But non-comp predicts exactly the same thing simply because the number of states the screen can be in that we would put in the category white noise is far greater than the number of states we would put in the Monty Python movie category; and this would be true even if the Bible thumpers were right about the soul and consciousness, which means your thought experiment and all the numerous copies of you are a useless complication in investigating these questions. that you should expect the WM duplication as equivalent with the throw of a random coin, etc. But you don't need to agree with that analysis. You need only to agree that there is an indeterminacy Of course there is a indeterminacy! A key part of your thought experiment is that a million pixels on a screen change at RANDOM 60 times a second from black to white for 2 hours, being RANDOM you can't (or at least should not) be certain what you'll see on the screen. If Everett is right the indeterminacy is purely a measure of lack of information on your part and that information exists you just don't have it. If you knew what branch of the multiverse you were in, what particular universe you were in, you'd know for certain what you were going to see on that screen; if you are in a Monty Python branch you will see a Monty Python movie and if you're in a white noise branch you'll see white noise. Once again your 1-view indeterminacy brings nothing new to the mix. I can hear you say, but that's the point, you don't know what branch you are in until you see white noise or Monty Python on that screen. But according to Everett until you see something unique on that screen that nobody else in any universe sees you are not in that branch because that branch does not exist, seeing Monty Python is exactly what makes it the Monty Python branch. So I think we could move on step 4. You cannot stop in a middle on a proof on the pretext that you have learn nothing. I can understand your desire to gloss over this major difficulty and move on, but I feel that if a proof has made a blunder it's pointless to read more. There is a difference between anything can happen in the reality, and anything can happen in the next moment. And what difference is that? If Everett is right the probability must be derived from the statistics of measurements *as described by the wave evolution*. If Everett is right then you can use the square of the absolute value of the Schrodinger Wave Equation to help you guess which branch you are in, he says it's the best guess you can make with the limited information you have at your disposal, it's not perfect but it's the best we can do. However if Everett is right everything that can happen to you will happen to you somewhere in some branch of the multiverse. The distinction you are introducing concerns what the outsider can write in his diary (the 3-view), it does not bear on the individual diary contents (the 1-views). I see, the contents of the diary are 3-view but the diary contents are 1-view. No I take that back, I don't see. After the experience, both concedes that they feel in one city, as they describe in their respective diary, and both recognize that they don't feel to be in both city, and that they don't feel any possible sensation of their respective doppelganger. And both will record in their diary that they are Bruno Marchal, in fact they both insist on this point very very strongly, and I the outside observer can find absolutely no reason to say that one is more Bruno Marchal-like than the other, so if I told you before the duplication that you would see Washington AND Moscow I would be correct, Bruno Marchal will indeed see both cities. But n Helsinki you cannot know for sure in which city you will wake up. Asking why you are the Moscow man not the Washington man is exactly like asking why you are Bruno Marchal and not John K Clark. But exactly what does your 50% really mean? You're treating it not as a measure of ignorance Well, you can treat it as a measure on ignorance, by using the PUP principle. I wish you'd stop expecting people to remember what all your homemade acronyms mean. Basically the 1-view is the subjective(*) experience, and the 3-view is what an outsider can objectively described. Then you can give no examples where according to the 3-view things are identical but according to the 1-view they are not, although it's easy to find examples where according to the 1-view things are identical but by the 3-view they are not. So when you complain that I'm just looking at things from the 3-view and from only that view are
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 4/2/2012 9:14 AM, John Clark wrote: If Everett is right the probability must be derived from the statistics of measurements *as described by the wave evolution*. If Everett is right then you can use the square of the absolute value of the Schrodinger Wave Equation to help you guess which branch you are in, he says it's the best guess you can make with the limited information you have at your disposal, it's not perfect but it's the best we can do. However if Everett is right everything that can happen to you will happen to you somewhere in some branch of the multiverse. Except there is the same equivocation on you as in Bruno's transporter. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/31/2012 11:11 AM, David Nyman wrote: The alternative to this analysis is to abandon MWI (or comp) as inconsistent with the empirical facts. This is the tack Kent in fact adopts, proposing a mechanism for the pruning of all but one of the alternative branches, I think he just proposes pruning the density matrix cross-terms by some mechanism. Once they are gone then the realized branch is just 'selected' stochasitcally per the Born rule. I've often contemplated such a move based on the idea that there be a smallest non-zero quantum of probability; but I've not seen a way to make that work. Brent in the absence of which he clearly feels the empirical facts cannot be justified. I don't happen to agree with his reasons, but such a proposal is consistent with his view of the likely subjective consequences of duplication. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 1 April 2012 07:04, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I think he just proposes pruning the density matrix cross-terms by some mechanism. Once they are gone then the realized branch is just 'selected' stochasitcally per the Born rule. I've often contemplated such a move based on the idea that there be a smallest non-zero quantum of probability; but I've not seen a way to make that work. Thanks for that clarification. That being said, he is nevertheless explicit that the crucial distinction between what he wants to suggest and MWI is that only one branch can be considered as having been actualised. Given his scepticism about Wallace's analysis of the probable subjective consequences of duplication, this is what he feels he needs for his scheme to be plausible in the face of the empirical facts. By the way, the reasons he gives for that scepticism seem to me to imply some sort of individuated crypto-dualism. For example, he says that Wallace doesn't address the possibility that future copies might be subjectively discontinuous with the you that exists presently; consequently that particular you could be consigned to subjective oblivion. He concedes that, whether considered physically or informationally, the copies possess every feature that presently determines your empirical self-identification. The conjunction of these two stipulations suggests that, despite everything, some personal essence is not copied; rather, each doppelganger acquires its own freshly minted personal self-hood, and yours is annihilated. I've attempted to conceive how one might put this to the test, even in imagination, but I've not come up with anything. This kind of rampant confusion over pronouns is the chief reason I favour the universal mind heuristic as a way of conceiving the subjective state of affairs. In terms of this heuristic, I always denotes the unique but discontinuous subjectivity of an infinity of self-ordering personal histories. Since the subjective locus is not itself subject to change, every perspective is mine, but not all perspectives are associated with David Nyman. It may seem strange at first, but it unravels surprisingly many of the conceptual puzzles. David On 3/31/2012 11:11 AM, David Nyman wrote: The alternative to this analysis is to abandon MWI (or comp) as inconsistent with the empirical facts. This is the tack Kent in fact adopts, proposing a mechanism for the pruning of all but one of the alternative branches, I think he just proposes pruning the density matrix cross-terms by some mechanism. Once they are gone then the realized branch is just 'selected' stochasitcally per the Born rule. I've often contemplated such a move based on the idea that there be a smallest non-zero quantum of probability; but I've not seen a way to make that work. Brent in the absence of which he clearly feels the empirical facts cannot be justified. I don't happen to agree with his reasons, but such a proposal is consistent with his view of the likely subjective consequences of duplication. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 31 March 2012 01:09, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: That seems like conjuring a mystery out of nothing. Is your question why is my observational perspective associated with my brain? It's only a mystery out of nothing if you have already accepted as unproblematic the primitive existence of my brain. Even given the assumption of a primitive micro-physicality, we lack any purely PHYSICAL principle capable of making a fundamental ontological distinction between the generalised ensemble in its entirety, and any specifically-isolated composite object. The ascription of composite brain-hood to some domain of the micro-physical ensemble is an a posteriori ascription from an already-established observational perspective. Hence to attribute said perspective to an epiphenomenon of such an ascription amounts to putting the ontological cart before the epistemological horse. David On 3/30/2012 4:23 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 30 March 2012 19:54, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: The problem with all this (as Kent makes explicit) is that there is nothing in the mathematics of the game physics that corresponds to this kind of momentary selection of subjective localisation. Unfortunately, his own proposal doesn't really solve the underlying problem, because although it can account, given the experimental situation, for my seeing spin-up and not spin-down (because the other doesn't objectively exist any longer) it cannot account for why the experience is of David making this observation rather than Brent It does if you think experience is an epiphenomena of physics. Brent and David are different physical systems and only one is looking at the system. Sure, but even if one believes that to be the case, it is still taken entirely for granted that there is some natural principle for the selection of THIS physical system from the class of all such systems. ?? I guess I don't understand the question. If my experience is a process in my brain then what more selection is required? To appeal, a posteriori, to the fact that one's observational perspective is apparently associated with this particular system and not any other is merely to argue in a circle; since that is what we are trying to explain we cannot adduce it as the explanation. That seems like conjuring a mystery out of nothing. Is your question why is my observational perspective associated with my brain? Brent As I said before, the requirement for some principle of selection, in this sense, is rarely made explicit, but nonetheless implicitly relied on. More often than not our particular localisation in space and time has been consigned to the realm of psychology or illusion, as in Einstein's reputed remark, as though it were somehow possible to disarm this inconvenient observational fact with scare quotes. So what intrigued me about Hoyle's idea (and according to Gribbin it was rather more than a fictional conceit for him) was precisely that his making it explicit exposed an elephant in the room that few others were prepared to acknowledge. David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
Hello Stephen, On 31 Mar 2012, at 18:29, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/31/2012 3:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Comp is just the assumption that we are machine, to said it shortly. Then it is shown as a consequence that not only we cannot neglect the physical reality, but that we have to retrieve it from arithmetic, without using any probabilistic *selection*. Comp is the problem, not the solution. Only the materialist believe wrongly that comp solves the mind problem, and *they* take matter for granted. Pretending that comp neglects problem is contrary to the facts, because comp just shows precisely where the problems come from (the taking granted of the physical reality). Bruno Dear Bruno, I wish I could feel comfortable with such a focused area so that we can neglect all other considerations. I agree with your judgement about materialists, but am not so sanguine about the idealist as having all the answers. Nobody said that the idealist has all answers. If comp is true, he has only all questions, really, so to speak. What is said is that IF comp is true, then we are necessarily lead to arithmetical (or equivalent) idealism. That's the result. Idealism is not part of the comp assumption. It is part of the theorem. Comp has to be idealist. If you belief, for whatever reason, that idealism is false, then COMP is false. You can't survive with a digital, even material, brain, by virtue of a physical computer emulating your brain at some level. My motivations are different from yours. I am wrestling with the ontological implications of physics and so our interests cross in many places. Only if comp is part of your theory. I have not yet seen any real, precise, non comp theory, so I cannot judge them. I have proposed an alternative ontology theory that appears to solve the mind-body problem without having to resort to epiphenomena, which by your own admission infects both materialism and idealism. You forget many of our discussions. Comp, + the usual Occam, leads to the disappearance of matter. Matter does not become an epiphenomenon, for its observation becomes a psychological or biological or (better imo) theological phenomenon. There are no epiphenomena. Materialists which are not eliminating consciousness makes often it into an epiphenomenon, because they admit it exists. But comp makes primitive matter into pure and simple non existence. You can reintroduce it logically, and that would make it into an epinoumenon, like invisible horses driving car, or ether, or phlogistic. That's different. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 1 April 2012 21:02, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I'm all in favor of epistemology first. But that means point-of-view comes first, and only some things happen comes second. The primitive, micro-physical ensemble is an ontological assumption way down the line. No argument from me on that! But, in the light of epistemology first, can you make any sense of the notion of consciousness as an epiphenomenon of its own constructions? David On 4/1/2012 4:55 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 31 March 2012 01:09, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: That seems like conjuring a mystery out of nothing. Is your question why is my observational perspective associated with my brain? It's only a mystery out of nothing if you have already accepted as unproblematic the primitive existence of my brain. Even given the assumption of a primitive micro-physicality, we lack any purely PHYSICAL principle capable of making a fundamental ontological distinction between the generalised ensemble in its entirety, and any specifically-isolated composite object. The ascription of composite brain-hood to some domain of the micro-physical ensemble is an a posteriori ascription from an already-established observational perspective. Hence to attribute said perspective to an epiphenomenon of such an ascription amounts to putting the ontological cart before the epistemological horse. David I'm all in favor of epistemology first. But that means point-of-view comes first, and only some things happen comes second. The primitive, micro-physical ensemble is an ontological assumption way down the line. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 4/1/2012 1:28 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 1 April 2012 21:02, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: I'm all in favor of epistemology first. But that means point-of-view comes first, and only some things happen comes second. The primitive, micro-physical ensemble is an ontological assumption way down the line. No argument from me on that! But, in the light of epistemology first, can you make any sense of the notion of consciousness as an epiphenomenon of its own constructions? No sure. But if I do succeed in that, starting from being conscious of stuff, I can follow the chain back to consciousness. I don't need to forget where I came from. Brent Hence a Reality, yes. But not necessarily a physical reality. Here is the logical dependence: NUMBERS - MACHINE DREAMS - PHYSICAL - HUMANS - PHYSICS - NUMBERS. --- Bruno Marchal David On 4/1/2012 4:55 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 31 March 2012 01:09, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.netwrote: That seems like conjuring a mystery out of nothing. Is your question why is my observational perspective associated with my brain? It's only a mystery out of nothing if you have already accepted as unproblematic the primitive existence of my brain. Even given the assumption of a primitive micro-physicality, we lack any purely PHYSICAL principle capable of making a fundamental ontological distinction between the generalised ensemble in its entirety, and any specifically-isolated composite object. The ascription of composite brain-hood to some domain of the micro-physical ensemble is an a posteriori ascription from an already-established observational perspective. Hence to attribute said perspective to an epiphenomenon of such an ascription amounts to putting the ontological cart before the epistemological horse. David I'm all in favor of epistemology first. But that means point-of-view comes first, and only some things happen comes second. The primitive, micro-physical ensemble is an ontological assumption way down the line. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 30 Mar 2012, at 23:29, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/30/2012 2:48 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/30/2012 4:08 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/30/2012 3:08 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:23 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Take my favorite thought experiment. Suppose I design two Mars Rovers and I want them to coordinate their movements in order to round up Martian sheep. I can easily distribute the artificial intelligence between the two of them, using data links so whatever one sees the other sees (incidentally this, minus the AI, is what combat aircraft software does now) and so there is a single top level decision routine on top of local decision routines about maneuvering around obstacles and managing internal states. OK, I'll bite. That AI program is running on the combination of the two pieces of hardware, this is no different than how Watson runs on a much of connected servers. But think about it, does not the data correlated to the sensors on one of the Rovers have to be synchronized with the data from the other Rover so that their manuevering can be controled. How exactly is the internal model of this system built so that it can 'consider itself' as being both exploring some pile of rocks east of Mt. Olympus while the other Rover is taking a dirt sample in some crater 500 kilometers away. It is not possible for two fixed points to exist on one compact and closed manifold. You can only have one at a time. What you describe is more like a Rover with a multiple personality disorder. You're suffering from a failure of imagination. It can make a model in which it considers itself has having to bodies at two different places. It wouldn't even be hard to program. If you can experience two different places and you can act in two different places you ARE in two different places. Brent -- Hi Brent, Could you give us a brief explanation of how this would work? I will readily admit to a failure of imagination here. Just as you have two eyes providing two 2D views of the world which your brain merges into one 3D model, one can merge the data streams from many different sensors located in disparate places to create a single unified model. Military systems do this for battlefield awareness. And this model can include a 'self'. The self is usually located where the hardware is because evolution requires that the hardware/self be protected. Brent Hi Brent, Interesting. ... merge ... streams ... to create a single unified model How is this not consistent with my original claim above? My claim is that a single unified model must obtain and that the notion of 1-p identity follows directly from this and thus if no unification can obtain neither does a 1-p. What did you imagine that I was claiming? What I have been trying to point out is that the single unified model must be such that there are no logical or resource conflicts. I go further to claim that this is an example of the SAT problem in applied logic. It is known that SAT is an NP- Complete problem and thus the computational complexity issues must be addressed. I have been arguing that COMP neglects these complexity issues completely and seemingly does so by eliminating the necessity to consider the actual physical implementations of the computations, preferring instead to postulate some Platonic realm where computations have particular properties merely on the basis, it is argued, that the truth valuations of Sigma_1 sentences is completely independent of our knowledge of their content. I see this as equivalent to saying that since there exist strings of numbers that are solutions to NP-Complete problems then we don't need to worry about actually having to find them and thus bypass problems like SAT. Instead we are offered an interesting form of Occasionalism or Accidentalism to explain how it is that we actually do experience a physical world. Comp is just the assumption that we are machine, to said it shortly. Then it is shown as a consequence that not only we cannot neglect the physical reality, but that we have to retrieve it from arithmetic, without using any probabilistic *selection*. Comp is the problem, not the solution. Only the materialist believe wrongly that comp solves the mind problem, and *they* take matter for granted. Pretending that comp neglects problem is contrary to the facts, because comp just shows precisely where the problems come from (the taking granted of the physical reality). Bruno Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 31 Mar 2012, at 01:23, David Nyman wrote: On 30 March 2012 19:54, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: The problem with all this (as Kent makes explicit) is that there is nothing in the mathematics of the game physics that corresponds to this kind of momentary selection of subjective localisation. Unfortunately, his own proposal doesn't really solve the underlying problem, because although it can account, given the experimental situation, for my seeing spin-up and not spin-down (because the other doesn't objectively exist any longer) it cannot account for why the experience is of David making this observation rather than Brent It does if you think experience is an epiphenomena of physics. Brent and David are different physical systems and only one is looking at the system. Sure, but even if one believes that to be the case, it is still taken entirely for granted that there is some natural principle for the selection of THIS physical system from the class of all such systems. To appeal, a posteriori, to the fact that one's observational perspective is apparently associated with this particular system and not any other is merely to argue in a circle; since that is what we are trying to explain we cannot adduce it as the explanation. As I said before, the requirement for some principle of selection, in this sense, is rarely made explicit, but nonetheless implicitly relied on. More often than not our particular localisation in space and time has been consigned to the realm of psychology or illusion, as in Einstein's reputed remark, as though it were somehow possible to disarm this inconvenient observational fact with scare quotes. So what intrigued me about Hoyle's idea (and according to Gribbin it was rather more than a fictional conceit for him) was precisely that his making it explicit exposed an elephant in the room that few others were prepared to acknowledge. Exactly. What comp shows is that each time a physicist use a physical law to make a physical prediction, he is using an identity principle, a selection principle, and an induction principle, which is incompatible with comp. He assumes his mind is attached to one brain and that there is no other equivalent brain existing in reality, to be able to transfer his 3p reasoning on its future 1-view. Comp makes the mind-body problem *more* difficult, by showing that those principles are not applicable. Reality is more subtle than the physicist want us to believe. Bruno David On 3/30/2012 4:38 AM, David Nyman wrote: The problem with all this (as Kent makes explicit) is that there is nothing in the mathematics of the game physics that corresponds to this kind of momentary selection of subjective localisation. Unfortunately, his own proposal doesn't really solve the underlying problem, because although it can account, given the experimental situation, for my seeing spin-up and not spin-down (because the other doesn't objectively exist any longer) it cannot account for why the experience is of David making this observation rather than Brent It does if you think experience is an epiphenomena of physics. Brent and David are different physical systems and only one is looking at the system. Brent , or indeed here rather than there, or now rather than then. Subjective localisation is simply assumed, or trivialised, as in Einstein's remark “The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion”. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You should care to be able to answer the simple question: what do you expect to feel in the multiplication-movie experience I would expect to feel exactly the same as if duplicating chambers and multiple copies of myself were not involved. If you perform whatever calculations you think are needed to produce your patented 1-view indeterminacy I would not be one bit wiser than if I calculated probabilities using regular old conventional probability methods, you've added tons of bells and whistles but for all the complex convolutions you have not added one single bit of additional information about what is likely to happen. You said you favor Everett's QM. Yes, but the universe will be the way is and doesn't care if I favor it or not, so it may or may not be true. And if Everett is right then there is a 100% probability that anything that can happen will happen, but using statistics in this way would not produce anything we could use, just as the 1-view probability of something can not tell me anything I didn't already know. You did not answer Quentin when he commented that with Everett the Universe is a duplicating chamber, so that your charge again the coimp-1-indeterminacy applies to Everett QM too. In the first place I like Many Worlds for esthetic reasons but I'm far from certain it's true. More important, in the thought experiment about the cities we have access to all the branches and can see what all the copies are doing, but that is not the case with Everett. If Everett is correct then probability is not inherent in the event itself but is just a measure of our ignorance. As you point out Many Worlds is a deterministic theory so if we had a bird's eye view of everything probability would be a useless tool because everything would have a probability of 100% or 0%. But I can hear you scream but you still wouldn't know for certain if you will see Washington. I say the probability is 100% you say it is 50%, how can we tell who is correct? I say that after the experiment if I find you and you says that he is in Washington and only Washington then my prediction was proven correct, and I can do exactly that. If after the experiment if you find you and he says that he is 50% in Washington then your prediction was proven correct, but you can't find anybody like that. You concede that you will indeed say you are in Washington and only Washington, but you correctly point out that you will also say you are in Moscow and only Moscow. I agree and say that means the probability you will see Moscow and only Moscow is also 100%, but you disagree and say it is 50%. I say the fact that you say you are in Washington and only Washington in no way weakens the claim that you are in Moscow and only Moscow. I predict there is a 100% chance there is a 100% chance you will feel like you are in one city and one city only, and it's not a problem for me to have two yous with 100% because YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. But exactly what does your 50% really mean? You're treating it not as a measure of ignorance but as if it's part of the thing itself even though it's a deterministic process, as if there is a 100% chance you will feel like you are 50% in Moscow and a 100% chance you will feel like you are 50% in Washington. And that does not correspond to the experimental results. My complaint is that the diaries add nothing, it's obvious that if the diaries the people remember writing are identical then the people are too, and if they aren't then the people aren't either. But the you contradict your statement Did I? I hate it when that happens. that both the guy in W and in M have the right to say that they are the guy who was at Helsinki, which makes indeed sense with comp. True it does make sense, the Washington guy is the Helsinki guy and the Moscow guy is the Helsinki guy and the Moscow guy is not the Washington guy and the Washington guy is not the Moscow guy. It's all very clear, but where did I contradict myself? And to add to the confusion sometimes you admit that they would feel the same, but then in your next breath you start talking about how it's identical in the 3-view but not the 1-view. Could you quote me and be more precise. Bruno, 3-view and 1-view are your terms, you invented them not me, if you did not think things could be the same in one view but not the other, if you thought the two things were identical then why the hell did you go to all the trouble to give them different names? In the step three experience we are talking about, they will give quite different answer. Then obviously they become different people and the thought experiment becomes rather dull. The third party does not know which one is you and you don't know either. The W guy know that he is a the guy in Helsinki, now instantiated in W. The M guy know that he is a the guy in Helsinki, now instantiated in M. Yes, assuming they
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/31/2012 3:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Comp is just the assumption that we are machine, to said it shortly. Then it is shown as a consequence that not only we cannot neglect the physical reality, but that we have to retrieve it from arithmetic, without using any probabilistic *selection*. Comp is the problem, not the solution. Only the materialist believe wrongly that comp solves the mind problem, and *they* take matter for granted. Pretending that comp neglects problem is contrary to the facts, because comp just shows precisely where the problems come from (the taking granted of the physical reality). Bruno Dear Bruno, I wish I could feel comfortable with such a focused area so that we can neglect all other considerations. I agree with your judgement about materialists, but am not so sanguine about the idealist as having all the answers. My motivations are different from yours. I am wrestling with the ontological implications of physics and so our interests cross in many places. I have proposed an alternative ontology theory that appears to solve the mind-body problem without having to resort to epiphenomena, which by your own admission infects both materialism and idealism. Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 31 March 2012 17:24, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: You should care to be able to answer the simple question: what do you expect to feel in the multiplication-movie experience I would expect to feel exactly the same as if duplicating chambers and multiple copies of myself were not involved. Q.E.D. This is the entire point of step 3. To repeat, in your own words above I would expect to feel exactly the same as if duplicating chambers and multiple copies of myself were not involved. Indeed, if you had reason to expect to feel anything else, that alone would force you to abandon both MWI or comp, as Adrian Kent argues forcefully in the papers Brent referenced. Kent quotes David Wallace's three logical options for the subjective consequences of MWI branching, of which the first (separately located simultaneous consciousnesses) and third (oblivion) clearly are at odds with your expectation to feel exactly the same as if...multiple copies of myself were not involved. Wallace agrees with you - as he puts it, the remaining option is I should expect to become one or the other future self. This implies, he goes on to say, that in the absence of some strong criterion as to which copy to regard as “really” me, I will have to treat the question of which future self I become as (subjectively) indeterministic.” The alternative to this analysis is to abandon MWI (or comp) as inconsistent with the empirical facts. This is the tack Kent in fact adopts, proposing a mechanism for the pruning of all but one of the alternative branches, in the absence of which he clearly feels the empirical facts cannot be justified. I don't happen to agree with his reasons, but such a proposal is consistent with his view of the likely subjective consequences of duplication. I hope you can now see that Kent and Wallace both formulate the issue of duplication equivalently to step 3 of the UDA. Assuming that, unlike Kent, you don't wish on this basis to rule out the MWI or comp hypotheses, the first-person indeterminacy with respect to duplication is equivalent to what Wallace describes as treat(ing) the question of which future self I become as (subjectively) indeterministic.” David On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You should care to be able to answer the simple question: what do you expect to feel in the multiplication-movie experience I would expect to feel exactly the same as if duplicating chambers and multiple copies of myself were not involved. If you perform whatever calculations you think are needed to produce your patented 1-view indeterminacy I would not be one bit wiser than if I calculated probabilities using regular old conventional probability methods, you've added tons of bells and whistles but for all the complex convolutions you have not added one single bit of additional information about what is likely to happen. You said you favor Everett's QM. Yes, but the universe will be the way is and doesn't care if I favor it or not, so it may or may not be true. And if Everett is right then there is a 100% probability that anything that can happen will happen, but using statistics in this way would not produce anything we could use, just as the 1-view probability of something can not tell me anything I didn't already know. You did not answer Quentin when he commented that with Everett the Universe is a duplicating chamber, so that your charge again the coimp-1-indeterminacy applies to Everett QM too. In the first place I like Many Worlds for esthetic reasons but I'm far from certain it's true. More important, in the thought experiment about the cities we have access to all the branches and can see what all the copies are doing, but that is not the case with Everett. If Everett is correct then probability is not inherent in the event itself but is just a measure of our ignorance. As you point out Many Worlds is a deterministic theory so if we had a bird's eye view of everything probability would be a useless tool because everything would have a probability of 100% or 0%. But I can hear you scream but you still wouldn't know for certain if you will see Washington. I say the probability is 100% you say it is 50%, how can we tell who is correct? I say that after the experiment if I find you and you says that he is in Washington and only Washington then my prediction was proven correct, and I can do exactly that. If after the experiment if you find you and he says that he is 50% in Washington then your prediction was proven correct, but you can't find anybody like that. You concede that you will indeed say you are in Washington and only Washington, but you correctly point out that you will also say you are in Moscow and only Moscow. I agree and say that means the probability you will see Moscow and only Moscow is also 100%, but you disagree and say it is 50%. I say the fact that you say you are in Washington and only
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/29/2012 10:23 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Take my favorite thought experiment. Suppose I design two Mars Rovers and I want them to coordinate their movements in order to round up Martian sheep. I can easily distribute the artificial intelligence between the two of them, using data links so whatever one sees the other sees (incidentally this, minus the AI, is what combat aircraft software does now) and so there is a single top level decision routine on top of local decision routines about maneuvering around obstacles and managing internal states. OK, I'll bite. That AI program is running on the combination of the two pieces of hardware, this is no different than how Watson http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2011-01-14-ibm-jeopardy_N.htm runs on a much of connected servers. But think about it, does not the data correlated to the sensors on one of the Rovers have to be synchronized with the data from the other Rover so that their manuevering can be controled. How exactly is the internal model of this system built so that it can 'consider itself' as being both exploring some pile of rocks east of Mt. Olympus while the other Rover is taking a dirt sample in some crater 500 kilometers away. It is not possible for two fixed points to exist on one compact and closed manifold. You can only have one at a time. What you describe is more like a Rover with a multiple personality disorder. You're suffering from a failure of imagination. It can make a model in which it considers itself has having to bodies at two different places. It wouldn't even be hard to program. If you can experience two different places and you can act in two different places you ARE in two different places. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 29 Mar 2012, at 21:47, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 12:02 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Mar 2012, at 20:08, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. I will ask you to do the hairsplitting about that YOU, that you are using here, so as to convince me and others that it refutes indeed the indeterminacy about the first person experience displayed in the WM duplication thought experience (UDA step 3). Given that we both agree that we don't die in that experience, and given that you are the one claiming that there is no indeterminate outcome, I will ask to give us an algorithm predicting the result of the future self-localization experience. The outcome is deterministic just like Everett's QM is deterministic. And it has the same problems being given a probabilistic interpretation as EQM. If you duplicated a coin in the transporter experiment the question, Where will you expect to find the coin. has the same problems as Where do you expect to find yourself. The implication is that self is not a unique 'thing' (as for example a soul is assumed to be) but is process that can be realized in different media. I agree. But the experience is lived as unique, so we can follow Plotinus in using the term soul for the owner of the 1-view, that is, the knower. From its pov, it is not duplicable, in the trivial sense that the duplication is never part of his experience. You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Or you are just a giant with one foot in W and one foot in M. But that's not relevant for the issue I was talking about, where complete brain are reconstituted separately in the two places. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that experience would be strange and we would tend to say, Yes but it's still one consciousness. So then the question becomes what do you mean by not experiencing duplication? Is it a mere tautology based on how you define 'consciousness'? I do not define consciousness, and for the reasoning I am using an approximate notion of first person (the content of the diary which is transported in the teleportation or duplication device. And yes, it makes the non experiencing of duplication, and the non experiencing of reconstitution delays obvious. That was the goal. He would not know if we did not give him the protocol. mathematically, this is related to the fact that no machine can know which machine she is, already seen clearly by Post and (re)intuited by Benacerraf, and intuited by the machine itself, accepting the Theaetetus' definition of knowledge. I am not sure the problem of probability is identical in QM and COMP. In QM, Everett showed that the P = A^2 principle does not depend on the choice of the base, I don't think that's correct. 'A' is the amplitude of the projection on certain basis determined by what is measured. Yes the Born rule can be applied whatever basis is chosen, but the projection produces different A's. No problem with this. so that A can be considered as measuring the relative proportion of possible accessible relative realities. This does not work with finite multiverse, but it works with infinite multiverse, But infinite multiple worlds create a measure problem. That's one of Adrian Kent's points. In all case of multiplication, be it through comp or QM, there is a measure problem. With comp, the mind-body problem is transformed into a justification of the physical laws through a measure problem. and Gleason theorem justifies the unicity of the measure, I'm not sure what you mean by that? Gleason’s theorem, formulated and proved by Andrew M. Gleason in 1957, is a state- ment about measures on Hilbert spaces of dimension at least three. The theorem states that the only possible probability measures on such spaces are measures µ of the form µ(a) = Tr(ρPa ), where ρ is a positive semi-definite self-adjoint operator of unit trace, and where Pa is a pro jection operator for pro jection onto the subspace a. Postulating that any orthogonal basis in some Hilbert space corresponds to a measure- ment and that quantum systems can be represented by such spaces, we can understand the pro jection operators as representing yes-no observables a1 , commuting pro jectors cor- responding to yes-no questions that can be simultaneously answered (or asked). Any (measurable) property a of the system is then uniquely associated with a subspace (which could be one-dimensional i.e. a vector) of the system’s Hilbert space - within this frame- work,
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
David, Selection was even earlier proposed by Leibniz in his Monadology philosophy along with many other principles about half of which have been confirmed by scientific theory and experimentation. http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/leibniz.htm Richard David Ruquist On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 9:20 PM, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 29 March 2012 20:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that experience would be strange and we would tend to say, Yes but it's still one consciousness. So then the question becomes what do you mean by not experiencing duplication? Is it a mere tautology based on how you define 'consciousness'? Surely it's just a necessary prerequisite for accepting the possibility of either MWI or comp? IOW, if one rejects, on whatever grounds, that a unique subjective perspective could be consistent with the objective existence of multiple copies (as I think is the case with Kent) then one is forced also to reject both MWI and comp. Given such a view, neither theory could be a viable explanation for one's lived experience of observing one universe at a time. AFAICS, the more exotic examples you give above, e.g. a distributed process, or a Borg-type group-mind, present no difficulties beyond that for ordinary consciousness. Again, either one accepts that duplication of these states of affairs would be compatible, mutatis mutandis, with the corresponding single universe perspective (however exotic) or not. Given the above, what makes it difficult to make sense of John's objections to Bruno's argument is precisely that he accepts the possibility of multiple copies in a comp or MWI scenario, whilst ignoring the necessity of recovering a singular perspective. But the latter step is a prerequisite, in any scenario, for reproducing the empirically uncertain state of affairs. Without it, the probability of every outcome - as John has continually reiterated - can only ever be 100%! Selection, even if only implicit, is an ineliminable feature of any theory seeking to explain the empirical facts. Kent's proposal is a process that eliminates all branches but one, albeit on a somewhat different basis than Copenhagen. Similarly, the heuristic I suggested in an earlier post entails selection, but in a non-destructive manner. BTW, I had long retained a dim recollection of a similar selection metaphor involving pigeon holes from my youthful SF reading, which I recently re-discovered to be Fred Hoyle's 1960's novella October the First is Too Late. I also found that John Gribbin refers to this very notion in his recent Multiverse book (apparently he was a student of Hoyle's), relating it to the ideas of Deutsch and Barbour. This reinforced my suspicion that they do rely implicitly on such a selection principle, though AFAICS neither of them acknowledge it explicitly. David On 3/29/2012 12:02 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Mar 2012, at 20:08, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. I will ask you to do the hairsplitting about that YOU, that you are using here, so as to convince me and others that it refutes indeed the indeterminacy about the first person experience displayed in the WM duplication thought experience (UDA step 3). Given that we both agree that we don't die in that experience, and given that you are the one claiming that there is no indeterminate outcome, I will ask to give us an algorithm predicting the result of the future self-localization experience. The outcome is deterministic just like Everett's QM is deterministic. And it has the same problems being given a probabilistic interpretation as EQM. If you duplicated a coin in the transporter experiment the question, Where will you expect to find the coin. has the same problems as Where do you expect to find yourself. The implication is that self is not a unique 'thing' (as for example a soul is assumed to be) but is process that can be realized in different media. I agree. But the experience is lived as unique, so we can follow Plotinus in using the term soul for the owner of the 1-view, that is, the knower. From its pov, it is not duplicable, in the trivial sense that the duplication is never part of his experience. You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/30/2012 3:08 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:23 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Take my favorite thought experiment. Suppose I design two Mars Rovers and I want them to coordinate their movements in order to round up Martian sheep. I can easily distribute the artificial intelligence between the two of them, using data links so whatever one sees the other sees (incidentally this, minus the AI, is what combat aircraft software does now) and so there is a single top level decision routine on top of local decision routines about maneuvering around obstacles and managing internal states. OK, I'll bite. That AI program is running on the combination of the two pieces of hardware, this is no different than how Watson http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2011-01-14-ibm-jeopardy_N.htm runs on a much of connected servers. But think about it, does not the data correlated to the sensors on one of the Rovers have to be synchronized with the data from the other Rover so that their manuevering can be controled. How exactly is the internal model of this system built so that it can 'consider itself' as being both exploring some pile of rocks east of Mt. Olympus while the other Rover is taking a dirt sample in some crater 500 kilometers away. It is not possible for two fixed points to exist on one compact and closed manifold. You can only have one at a time. What you describe is more like a Rover with a multiple personality disorder. You're suffering from a failure of imagination. It can make a model in which it considers itself has having to bodies at two different places. It wouldn't even be hard to program. If you can experience two different places and you can act in two different places you ARE in two different places. Brent -- Hi Brent, Could you give us a brief explanation of how this would work? I will readily admit to a failure of imagination here. Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 30 March 2012 03:14, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: My reading of Kent is that he rejects MWI. I don't think he believes there is a single conscious copy and the rest are zombies; he believes there's just one world and it is 'selected' probabilistically. Yes, I understand that. My point is that Kent disbelieves (as his arguments contra Wallace show) that a single conscious perspective is either logically or naturally consistent with the objective existence of multiple copies, and it is this disbelief that motivates his suggestion of an objective selection process to dispose of all but one of them. By contrast, the heuristic I suggest (i.e. an informal way of thinking about the situation) is subjective (albeit impersonally so) rather than objective, in the sense that it doesn't involve eliminating the unselected branches. It is curious to me that others have seemingly dismissed this possibility because of the apparent threat of zombies, or what David Albert somewhat gothically refers to as mindless hulks. But there is another way to conceive this. In essence, it's the perspective of a universal consciousness with amnesia for states other than those associated with the momentary selection of a current history. From this perspective, other people with whom we interact (including our own bodies) stand in approximately the role of avatars in a video game. It is highly relevant in this regard that the empirically-discoverable game physics never requires the presumption of conscious states (or indeed anything else outside its own closed system of transformation rules) in order to explain their behaviour. The selection of mutually-exclusive moments by the universal mind might imply that only one of these avatars is conscious at one time, but on reflection this corresponds rather precisely to what we are trying to explain. Subjectivity is never simultaneous as experienced (which is equivalent to the claim that it can't be duplicated); the ability to synchronise clock times between different (objectively characterised) subjects is a different matter. The problem with all this (as Kent makes explicit) is that there is nothing in the mathematics of the game physics that corresponds to this kind of momentary selection of subjective localisation. Unfortunately, his own proposal doesn't really solve the underlying problem, because although it can account, given the experimental situation, for my seeing spin-up and not spin-down (because the other doesn't objectively exist any longer) it cannot account for why the experience is of David making this observation rather than Brent, or indeed here rather than there, or now rather than then. Subjective localisation is simply assumed, or trivialised, as in Einstein's remark “The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion”. Given the above, what makes it difficult to make sense of John's objections to Bruno's argument is precisely that he accepts the possibility of multiple copies in a comp or MWI scenario, whilst ignoring the necessity of recovering a singular perspective. But in Bruno's transporter experiment there isn't *a* singular perspective, there are two different ones. Now you're doing a John! Sure, there are two different ones objectively, but there's only one subjectively. Unless you want to take the tack of rejecting comp or MWI on that basis (which is a possibility) this forces you to accept that the existence of two copies must indeed (somehow) be compatible with your experiencing a single perspective. The heuristic I propose makes this unproblematic AFAICS, though it does indeed force re-consideration of exactly who you are, and invokes the measure problem with particular vengeance. But that is unavoidable, ISTM, with any proposal in this domain, as indeed is the determination of subjective localisation as an ancillary assumption. Selection, even if only implicit, is an ineliminable feature of any theory seeking to explain the empirical facts. But then Everett's QM doesn't explain the facts - because there is no selection. That's part of Kent's criticism. I agree. It can't explain the facts without selection, on which it relies implicitly (and I don't understand why this doesn't strike more people as problematic). But I also don't believe that Kent's proposal on its own goes all the way to dealing with the deficiency he exposes, as I explain above. David On 3/29/2012 6:20 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 29 March 2012 20:47, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 30 March 2012 10:11, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: David, Selection was even earlier proposed by Leibniz in his Monadology philosophy along with many other principles about half of which have been confirmed by scientific theory and experimentation. http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/leibniz.htm Richard David Ruquist Thanks for reminding me of this - I hadn't read Leibniz for a long while. However, on a rapid re-perusal I can only discover one instance of his referring to selection: 53. Now as there are an infinity of possible universes in the ideas of God, and but one of them can exist, there must be a sufficient reason for the choice of God which determines him to select one rather than another. This could perhaps be interpreted as being consistent with Kent's proposal of an objective selection at infinity pruning out the superfluous branches. But if so, it is still vulnerable to my criticism that it fails to account for subjective localisation, or in Leibniz's terminology, why the subjective perspective of one monad is selected at a given moment rather than another. Can you direct me to any other reference to this in the Monadology? David On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 9:20 PM, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 29 March 2012 20:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that experience would be strange and we would tend to say, Yes but it's still one consciousness. So then the question becomes what do you mean by not experiencing duplication? Is it a mere tautology based on how you define 'consciousness'? Surely it's just a necessary prerequisite for accepting the possibility of either MWI or comp? IOW, if one rejects, on whatever grounds, that a unique subjective perspective could be consistent with the objective existence of multiple copies (as I think is the case with Kent) then one is forced also to reject both MWI and comp. Given such a view, neither theory could be a viable explanation for one's lived experience of observing one universe at a time. AFAICS, the more exotic examples you give above, e.g. a distributed process, or a Borg-type group-mind, present no difficulties beyond that for ordinary consciousness. Again, either one accepts that duplication of these states of affairs would be compatible, mutatis mutandis, with the corresponding single universe perspective (however exotic) or not. Given the above, what makes it difficult to make sense of John's objections to Bruno's argument is precisely that he accepts the possibility of multiple copies in a comp or MWI scenario, whilst ignoring the necessity of recovering a singular perspective. But the latter step is a prerequisite, in any scenario, for reproducing the empirically uncertain state of affairs. Without it, the probability of every outcome - as John has continually reiterated - can only ever be 100%! Selection, even if only implicit, is an ineliminable feature of any theory seeking to explain the empirical facts. Kent's proposal is a process that eliminates all branches but one, albeit on a somewhat different basis than Copenhagen. Similarly, the heuristic I suggested in an earlier post entails selection, but in a non-destructive manner. BTW, I had long retained a dim recollection of a similar selection metaphor involving pigeon holes from my youthful SF reading, which I recently re-discovered to be Fred Hoyle's 1960's novella October the First is Too Late. I also found that John Gribbin refers to this very notion in his recent Multiverse book (apparently he was a student of Hoyle's), relating it to the ideas of Deutsch and Barbour. This reinforced my suspicion that they do rely implicitly on such a selection principle, though AFAICS neither of them acknowledge it explicitly. David On 3/29/2012 12:02 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Mar 2012, at 20:08, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. I will ask you to do the hairsplitting about that YOU, that you are using here, so as to convince me and others that it refutes indeed the indeterminacy about the first person experience displayed in the WM duplication thought experience (UDA step 3). Given that we both agree that we don't die in that experience, and given that you are the one claiming that there is no indeterminate outcome, I will ask to give us an algorithm predicting the result of the future self-localization experience. The outcome is
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/30/2012 4:08 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/30/2012 3:08 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:23 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Take my favorite thought experiment. Suppose I design two Mars Rovers and I want them to coordinate their movements in order to round up Martian sheep. I can easily distribute the artificial intelligence between the two of them, using data links so whatever one sees the other sees (incidentally this, minus the AI, is what combat aircraft software does now) and so there is a single top level decision routine on top of local decision routines about maneuvering around obstacles and managing internal states. OK, I'll bite. That AI program is running on the combination of the two pieces of hardware, this is no different than how Watson http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2011-01-14-ibm-jeopardy_N.htm runs on a much of connected servers. But think about it, does not the data correlated to the sensors on one of the Rovers have to be synchronized with the data from the other Rover so that their manuevering can be controled. How exactly is the internal model of this system built so that it can 'consider itself' as being both exploring some pile of rocks east of Mt. Olympus while the other Rover is taking a dirt sample in some crater 500 kilometers away. It is not possible for two fixed points to exist on one compact and closed manifold. You can only have one at a time. What you describe is more like a Rover with a multiple personality disorder. You're suffering from a failure of imagination. It can make a model in which it considers itself has having to bodies at two different places. It wouldn't even be hard to program. If you can experience two different places and you can act in two different places you ARE in two different places. Brent -- Hi Brent, Could you give us a brief explanation of how this would work? I will readily admit to a failure of imagination here. Just as you have two eyes providing two 2D views of the world which your brain merges into one 3D model, one can merge the data streams from many different sensors located in disparate places to create a single unified model. Military systems do this for battlefield awareness. And this model can include a 'self'. The self is usually located where the hardware is because evolution requires that the hardware/self be protected. Brent Onward! Stephen No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4903 - Release Date: 03/29/12 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/30/2012 4:38 AM, David Nyman wrote: The problem with all this (as Kent makes explicit) is that there is nothing in the mathematics of the game physics that corresponds to this kind of momentary selection of subjective localisation. Unfortunately, his own proposal doesn't really solve the underlying problem, because although it can account, given the experimental situation, for my seeing spin-up and not spin-down (because the other doesn't objectively exist any longer) it cannot account for why the experience is of David making this observation rather than Brent It does if you think experience is an epiphenomena of physics. Brent and David are different physical systems and only one is looking at the system. Brent , or indeed here rather than there, or now rather than then. Subjective localisation is simply assumed, or trivialised, as in Einstein's remark “The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion”. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/30/2012 2:48 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/30/2012 4:08 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/30/2012 3:08 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:23 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Take my favorite thought experiment. Suppose I design two Mars Rovers and I want them to coordinate their movements in order to round up Martian sheep. I can easily distribute the artificial intelligence between the two of them, using data links so whatever one sees the other sees (incidentally this, minus the AI, is what combat aircraft software does now) and so there is a single top level decision routine on top of local decision routines about maneuvering around obstacles and managing internal states. OK, I'll bite. That AI program is running on the combination of the two pieces of hardware, this is no different than how Watson http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2011-01-14-ibm-jeopardy_N.htm runs on a much of connected servers. But think about it, does not the data correlated to the sensors on one of the Rovers have to be synchronized with the data from the other Rover so that their manuevering can be controled. How exactly is the internal model of this system built so that it can 'consider itself' as being both exploring some pile of rocks east of Mt. Olympus while the other Rover is taking a dirt sample in some crater 500 kilometers away. It is not possible for two fixed points to exist on one compact and closed manifold. You can only have one at a time. What you describe is more like a Rover with a multiple personality disorder. You're suffering from a failure of imagination. It can make a model in which it considers itself has having to bodies at two different places. It wouldn't even be hard to program. If you can experience two different places and you can act in two different places you ARE in two different places. Brent -- Hi Brent, Could you give us a brief explanation of how this would work? I will readily admit to a failure of imagination here. Just as you have two eyes providing two 2D views of the world which your brain merges into one 3D model, one can merge the data streams from many different sensors located in disparate places to create a single unified model. Military systems do this for battlefield awareness. And this model can include a 'self'. The self is usually located where the hardware is because evolution requires that the hardware/self be protected. Brent Hi Brent, Interesting. ... merge ... streams ... to create a single unified model How is this not consistent with my original claim above? My claim is that a single unified model must obtain and that the notion of 1-p identity follows directly from this and thus if no unification can obtain neither does a 1-p. What did you imagine that I was claiming? What I have been trying to point out is that the single unified model must be such that there are no logical or resource conflicts. I go further to claim that this is an example of the SAT problem in applied logic. It is known that SAT is an NP-Complete problem and thus the computational complexity issues must be addressed. I have been arguing that COMP neglects these complexity issues completely and seemingly does so by eliminating the necessity to consider the actual physical implementations of the computations, preferring instead to postulate some Platonic realm where computations have particular properties merely on the basis, it is argued, that the truth valuations of Sigma_1 sentences is completely independent of our knowledge of their content. I see this as equivalent to saying that since there exist strings of numbers that are solutions to NP-Complete problems then we don't need to worry about actually having to find them and thus bypass problems like SAT. Instead we are offered an interesting form of Occasionalism or Accidentalism to explain how it is that we actually do experience a physical world. Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/30/2012 2:29 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/30/2012 2:48 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/30/2012 4:08 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/30/2012 3:08 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:23 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Take my favorite thought experiment. Suppose I design two Mars Rovers and I want them to coordinate their movements in order to round up Martian sheep. I can easily distribute the artificial intelligence between the two of them, using data links so whatever one sees the other sees (incidentally this, minus the AI, is what combat aircraft software does now) and so there is a single top level decision routine on top of local decision routines about maneuvering around obstacles and managing internal states. OK, I'll bite. That AI program is running on the combination of the two pieces of hardware, this is no different than how Watson http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2011-01-14-ibm-jeopardy_N.htm runs on a much of connected servers. But think about it, does not the data correlated to the sensors on one of the Rovers have to be synchronized with the data from the other Rover so that their manuevering can be controled. How exactly is the internal model of this system built so that it can 'consider itself' as being both exploring some pile of rocks east of Mt. Olympus while the other Rover is taking a dirt sample in some crater 500 kilometers away. It is not possible for two fixed points to exist on one compact and closed manifold. You can only have one at a time. What you describe is more like a Rover with a multiple personality disorder. You're suffering from a failure of imagination. It can make a model in which it considers itself has having to bodies at two different places. It wouldn't even be hard to program. If you can experience two different places and you can act in two different places you ARE in two different places. Brent -- Hi Brent, Could you give us a brief explanation of how this would work? I will readily admit to a failure of imagination here. Just as you have two eyes providing two 2D views of the world which your brain merges into one 3D model, one can merge the data streams from many different sensors located in disparate places to create a single unified model. Military systems do this for battlefield awareness. And this model can include a 'self'. The self is usually located where the hardware is because evolution requires that the hardware/self be protected. Brent Hi Brent, Interesting. ... merge ... streams ... to create a single unified model How is this not consistent with my original claim above? My claim is that a single unified model must obtain and that the notion of 1-p identity follows directly from this and thus if no unification can obtain neither does a 1-p. What did you imagine that I was claiming? That having different points of view implied different consciousnesses. What I have been trying to point out is that the single unified model must be such that there are no logical or resource conflicts. Of course if there is a single actor, he doesn't want to act against himself and so conflicts must be resolved. But that's no different that a pilot and copilot having to agree on navigation. The model only needs to be unified at the top level of action. So there can be differences at lower levels, as there seem to be in the human brain. I go further to claim that this is an example of the SAT problem in applied logic. It is known that SAT is an NP-Complete problem and thus the computational complexity issues must be addressed. Real problems are usually different from SAT in that they admit of degrees of satisfaction. I have been arguing that COMP neglects these complexity issues completely I'd say Bruno consciously rejects them because he sees a Platonic answer as *more fundamental* and hence preferable. Brent and seemingly does so by eliminating the necessity to consider the actual physical implementations of the computations, preferring instead to postulate some Platonic realm where computations have particular properties merely on the basis, it is argued, that the truth valuations of Sigma_1 sentences is completely independent of our knowledge of their content. I see this as equivalent to saying that since there exist strings of numbers that are solutions to NP-Complete problems then we don't need to worry about actually having to find them and thus bypass problems like SAT. Instead we are offered an interesting form of Occasionalism or Accidentalism to explain how it is that we actually do experience a physical world. Onward! Stephen No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4904 - Release Date: 03/30/12 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 30 March 2012 19:54, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: The problem with all this (as Kent makes explicit) is that there is nothing in the mathematics of the game physics that corresponds to this kind of momentary selection of subjective localisation. Unfortunately, his own proposal doesn't really solve the underlying problem, because although it can account, given the experimental situation, for my seeing spin-up and not spin-down (because the other doesn't objectively exist any longer) it cannot account for why the experience is of David making this observation rather than Brent It does if you think experience is an epiphenomena of physics. Brent and David are different physical systems and only one is looking at the system. Sure, but even if one believes that to be the case, it is still taken entirely for granted that there is some natural principle for the selection of THIS physical system from the class of all such systems. To appeal, a posteriori, to the fact that one's observational perspective is apparently associated with this particular system and not any other is merely to argue in a circle; since that is what we are trying to explain we cannot adduce it as the explanation. As I said before, the requirement for some principle of selection, in this sense, is rarely made explicit, but nonetheless implicitly relied on. More often than not our particular localisation in space and time has been consigned to the realm of psychology or illusion, as in Einstein's reputed remark, as though it were somehow possible to disarm this inconvenient observational fact with scare quotes. So what intrigued me about Hoyle's idea (and according to Gribbin it was rather more than a fictional conceit for him) was precisely that his making it explicit exposed an elephant in the room that few others were prepared to acknowledge. David On 3/30/2012 4:38 AM, David Nyman wrote: The problem with all this (as Kent makes explicit) is that there is nothing in the mathematics of the game physics that corresponds to this kind of momentary selection of subjective localisation. Unfortunately, his own proposal doesn't really solve the underlying problem, because although it can account, given the experimental situation, for my seeing spin-up and not spin-down (because the other doesn't objectively exist any longer) it cannot account for why the experience is of David making this observation rather than Brent It does if you think experience is an epiphenomena of physics. Brent and David are different physical systems and only one is looking at the system. Brent , or indeed here rather than there, or now rather than then. Subjective localisation is simply assumed, or trivialised, as in Einstein's remark “The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion”. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/30/2012 4:23 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 30 March 2012 19:54, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: The problem with all this (as Kent makes explicit) is that there is nothing in the mathematics of the game physics that corresponds to this kind of momentary selection of subjective localisation. Unfortunately, his own proposal doesn't really solve the underlying problem, because although it can account, given the experimental situation, for my seeing spin-up and not spin-down (because the other doesn't objectively exist any longer) it cannot account for why the experience is of David making this observation rather than Brent It does if you think experience is an epiphenomena of physics. Brent and David are different physical systems and only one is looking at the system. Sure, but even if one believes that to be the case, it is still taken entirely for granted that there is some natural principle for the selection of THIS physical system from the class of all such systems. ?? I guess I don't understand the question. If my experience is a process in my brain then what more selection is required? To appeal, a posteriori, to the fact that one's observational perspective is apparently associated with this particular system and not any other is merely to argue in a circle; since that is what we are trying to explain we cannot adduce it as the explanation. That seems like conjuring a mystery out of nothing. Is your question why is my observational perspective associated with my brain? Brent As I said before, the requirement for some principle of selection, in this sense, is rarely made explicit, but nonetheless implicitly relied on. More often than not our particular localisation in space and time has been consigned to the realm of psychology or illusion, as in Einstein's reputed remark, as though it were somehow possible to disarm this inconvenient observational fact with scare quotes. So what intrigued me about Hoyle's idea (and according to Gribbin it was rather more than a fictional conceit for him) was precisely that his making it explicit exposed an elephant in the room that few others were prepared to acknowledge. David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 28 Mar 2012, at 19:29, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 4:40 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: If 2 different consciousnesses can not be distinguished in my symmetrical room from the first person point of view or from the third person point of view then it seems pointless to insist that there are really 2 and not just one mind involved. We agree on this since the beginning. Then why why why do you keep talking about things being the same from the 3-view but not from the 1-view. You confuse F(x) = F(y) = x = y, with F(x) = x. Identical bodies have identical minds, but identical minds can have different bodies. It seems to me that you are playing with words. Words are the only means we have to communicate with and I need to know what they mean and that is not always obvious in very extreme and unusual (but not illogical) situations. But you can see there are 2 bodies of Bruno Marchal just as well as the outside observer, and you can not tell which one is you any better than the outside observer can! No. The outsider can see both necks for example. The insider cannot be sure that he is not in front of some mirror, according to your own analysis. No, you can touch the other fellow and he does not feel like a glass mirror, you can shake his hand, punch him in the jaw, do whatever 2 people can do when they meet each other, but if I instantly exchanged the position of the 2 bodies you would not notice the slightest difference, not from the 1-view or 2-view or 3-view or any view, the very universe itself would notice no difference. If subjectively it makes no difference and objectively it makes no difference then call me crazy but I say it makes no difference. So you fail to distinguish the 1-view and the 3-view. Yes, the universe itself can't distinguish between them and I'm not better than the universe. The universe does not know you are John Clark. You do. It seems you are eliminating the 1-view, which contradicts your agreement on the existence of consciousness. Consciousness is not part of any 3p description of the universe, yet it exists. I begin to think your problem is not with comp, but with the general issue of the mind- body problem. Your acknowledged difficulties to see Nagel points on the bat corroborates this. The difference between the 1-view and the 3-view is as big as the difference between the diary of the W-man, and the diary of the M-man. OK. So what is new with comp is a form of indeterminacy which even in theory we cannot predict, and which does not rely on physical experimentation and extrapolation, nor on the same anti- diagonalization used by Gödel or Turing. So in this hypothetical non quantum mechanical non Godel-Turing universe I could know at least in theory with 100% certainty that I will see Washington provided the universe was also simple enough for me to know the initial conditions and simple enough for me to calculate with them to obtain a outcome. And because I'd know I would see Washington I would know with 100% certainty that I will be the Washington man. I ask again what is new or deep here? You are just wrong. If you predict that you will feel to see Washington with 100% chance, the guy in Moscow will have all the memories of that prediction, and will have to admit he was wrong. Never say cannot be proven without adding by a specific machine M There are true statements that cannot be proven by a machine that is both consistent and complete, and any machine powerful enough to do arithmetic can not be complete. You want to know what is the probability you will become the Moscow man, but the only way that can happen is if you see images of Moscow, that's what being the Moscow man means. You can apply that argument to the throwing of a coin. That contradicts the statement above that you can use probability for the coin, so why can't you use it for the probability of feeling to be the Moscow man? In common usage when you say what is the probability I will see heads when I flip this coin? there is not a 100% chance I will see heads as there is in the thought experiment with the cities, but even more important in everyday use it is not needed to make what might seem like hairsplitting distinctions on who I is, but such exactitude is needed if duplicating chambers are thrown into the mix. I gave you the precise definition, with the diaries and their owners. But you are the one saying that this was hairsplitting and ask me to not come back with the diary stuff. You seem unable to put yourself at the place of any of the resulting copies. The 1-I of those copies is the usual 1-I, like in can you touch your nose. A third person can ask them where they are, or which movies they saw, and get definite answers. If you make a definite specific prediction of which movie you will see in the movie-
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Identical bodies have identical minds, Yes. but identical minds can have different bodies. Who cares? It's consciousness I'm interested in. The universe does not know you are John Clark. You do. In my symmetrical room example I know who John Clark is but I don't know which body is John Clark nor do I need to know because if even the universe does not know or care then I don't see why I should. I begin to think your problem is not with comp, but with the general issue of the mind-body problem. Your acknowledged difficulties to see Nagel points on the bat corroborates this. To foolish people nonsense makes perfect sense, and to fail to understand incorrect ideas is a virtue not a vice. Nagel demands to know not what it would be like if he was a bat but what it is like for a bat to be a bat; the reason the mind-body problem has made so little progress is that to a disturbingly large number of people Nagel's question, and ones like it, makes perfect sense. I'm proud to say it does not make one particle of sense to me. I gave you the precise definition, with the diaries and their owners. But you are the one saying that this was hairsplitting and ask me to not come back with the diary stuff. My complaint was not that you were doing too much hairsplitting but that you were doing too little, hairsplitting is vital if you're using duplicating chambers. My complaint is that the diaries add nothing, it's obvious that if the diaries the people remember writing are identical then the people are too, and if they aren't then the people aren't either. You seem unable to put yourself at the place of any of the resulting copies. I believe it's you that can't imagine yourself as a copy, even if you were identical you think you would somehow feel different. I don't. And to add to the confusion sometimes you admit that they would feel the same, but then in your next breath you start talking about how it's identical in the 3-view but not the 1-view. The 1-I of those copies is the usual 1-I, like in can you touch your nose. A third person can ask them where they are, or which movies they saw, and get definite answers. And both will give synchronized Identical answers. The third party does not know which one is you and you don't know either. And if there is any mystery and indeterminacy in this thing you call first person indeterminacy it quickly reduces out to types of indeterminacy we've already known about, some for many thousands of years and others for only about 80. You keep saying this, but don't reply to the many debunking of that idea that I have provided Here we go again. Even after dozens of messages and I don't know how many thousands of words in reply to your posts there is supposed to be a killer point that you made in some post long ago in a galaxy far far away (that you don't bother to repeat) that would prove you right and me wrong and is so absolutely brilliant that my only possible strategy to deal with it is to simply ignore it. BULLSHIT! You believe in some form of telepathy. BULLSHIT! No one can *feel* to be in two places at once True, no ONE can feel to be in TWO places at once, but TWO can feel to be in TWO places at once. And YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Comp (and MWI) is a deterministic theory. Many Worlds is deterministic but I don't know about comp because comp is a homemade term never completely defined and used on this list and nowhere else. I don't even know if I agree with comp. I will say that I know of no law of logic that demands that every event have a cause. 3 POV could be called the bird view, the totality view (the view in which comp and MWI are deterministic), 1 POV the frog view Then from the 1 POV, the important point of view because that's the one we live our lives, things are not deterministic. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 29 Mar 2012, at 18:31, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Identical bodies have identical minds, Yes. but identical minds can have different bodies. Who cares? It's consciousness I'm interested in. We discuss only on the consequence of the comp hypothesis in cognitive science. It concerns the mind body problem, which involves consciousness and bodies. The universe does not know you are John Clark. You do. In my symmetrical room example I know who John Clark is but I don't know which body is John Clark nor do I need to know because if even the universe does not know or care then I don't see why I should. You should care to be able to answer the simple question: what do you expect to feel in the multiplication-movie experience, which can help you to get the point of step 3. I gave you the precise definition, with the diaries and their owners. But you are the one saying that this was hairsplitting and ask me to not come back with the diary stuff. My complaint was not that you were doing too much hairsplitting but that you were doing too little, Then do it. Technically, you are the one throwing out the nuances I made precise. hairsplitting is vital if you're using duplicating chambers. You said you favor Everett's QM. You did not answer Quentin when he commented that with Everett the Universe is a duplicating chamber, so that your charge again the coimp-1-indeterminacy applies to Everett QM too. My complaint is that the diaries add nothing, it's obvious that if the diaries the people remember writing are identical then the people are too, and if they aren't then the people aren't either. But the you contradict your statement that both the guy in W and in M have the right to say that they are the guy who was at Helsinki, which makes indeed sense with comp. You seem unable to put yourself at the place of any of the resulting copies. I believe it's you that can't imagine yourself as a copy, even if you were identical you think you would somehow feel different. You keep attributing to me something I have never said. I don't. Me neither? I challenge you to quote me having said the contrary. You probably misunderstood a paragraph. And to add to the confusion sometimes you admit that they would feel the same, but then in your next breath you start talking about how it's identical in the 3-view but not the 1-view. Could you quote me and be more precise. The 1-I of those copies is the usual 1-I, like in can you touch your nose. A third person can ask them where they are, or which movies they saw, and get definite answers. And both will give synchronized Identical answers. In the step three experience we are talking about, they will give quite different answer. You are mixing different thought experiences. The third party does not know which one is you and you don't know either. The W guy know that he is a the guy in Helsinki, now instantiated in W. The M guy know that he is a the guy in Helsinki, now instantiated in M. They both know that they are not the guy in the other city. They can both acknowledge the first person indeterminacy: they could not know in advance the city in which they feel now having been reconstituted. If the guy in Helsinki has enough cognitive ability todo the thought experience (like AUDA suggests that all Löbian can do, and like they can do in somemore technical term), he will conclude without doing the experience that would that experience be done, he would not be able to predict that he will end up in M, (resp in W), although he can predict that he will end up with certainty in M or W. This shows also that when you duplicate yourself you get one bit of information. That bit of information is part of both first person experience 1p. On the contrary the 3p view does not create, or receive, one bit of information. No one can *feel* to be in two places at once True, no ONE can feel to be in TWO places at once, but TWO can feel to be in TWO places at once. And 7 billions human beings can feel to be at 7 billions different places. Why not, except that usually a collection of person is not perceive as a person, especially when isolated and distant. And YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. I will ask you to do the hairsplitting about that YOU, that you are using here, so as to convince me and others that it refutes indeed the indeterminacy about the first person experience displayed in the WM duplication thought experience (UDA step 3). Given that we both agree that we don't die in that experience, and given that you are the one claiming that there is no indeterminate outcome, I will ask to give us an algorithm predicting the result of the future self-localization experience. Please, don't answer me again W and M, because we already know that a machine cannot
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/29/2012 10:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. I will ask you to do the hairsplitting about that YOU, that you are using here, so as to convince me and others that it refutes indeed the indeterminacy about the first person experience displayed in the WM duplication thought experience (UDA step 3). Given that we both agree that we don't die in that experience, and given that you are the one claiming that there is no indeterminate outcome, I will ask to give us an algorithm predicting the result of the future self-localization experience. The outcome is deterministic just like Everett's QM is deterministic. And it has the same problems being given a probabilistic interpretation as EQM. If you duplicated a coin in the transporter experiment the question, Where will you expect to find the coin. has the same problems as Where do you expect to find yourself. The implication is that self is not a unique 'thing' (as for example a soul is assumed to be) but is process that can be realized in different media. Brent Please, don't answer me again W and M, because we already know that a machine cannot perceive a distant environment, and that she will describe, as a result of self-localization, after the duplication and when opening the box, a precise city. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 29 Mar 2012, at 18:46, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Comp (and MWI) is a deterministic theory. Many Worlds is deterministic but I don't know about comp because comp is a homemade term never completely defined and used on this list Comp is just a modern version of Descartes Mechanist assumption. I called it also digital mechanism. I make it more precise by introducing the notion of substitution level, and in making explicit it is a statement about consciousness. Up to now, you have used correctly comp (you just mess the notion of 1 and 3 person). Comp is the hypothesis that we have a body and that we can survive a digital substitution of that body. There is no limit on what that body needs to be except for being Turing emulable. I sum up by a yes doctor scenario, which gives an operational notion of comp practitioner, and which is handy for the thought experiment. To be completely clear on the notion of digital, I make explicit the Turing-Post-Church's thesis, and the minimal amount of arithmetical realism needed to give sense to that thesis. and nowhere else. That few people are aware of the consequence of comp is not invalidating the reasoning. I don't even know if I agree with comp. So you go back at step zero now? You were saying that everyone believe in comp sometimes ago. I will say that I know of no law of logic that demands that every event have a cause. Sure. This is even exemplified by the WM duplication. For the guy in W, it really looks like he is chosen between {W, M} without a cause. Same for the guy in M. Logic per se does not even concern events and cause, just valid or invalid reasoning, whatever the matter subject. 3 POV could be called the bird view, the totality view (the view in which comp and MWI are deterministic), 1 POV the frog view Then from the 1 POV, the important point of view because that's the one we live our lives, things are not deterministic. Nice to hear that. So you do see the difference between the 1-POV and the 3-POV. To be sure I would not follow Quentin in calling them frog and bird, because it gives an impression that it is a question of scaling, when it is more a question of personal points of view (which are modeled by modal logic through the self-reference in AUDA). Tegmark used frog and bird in the sense of: described by a term (the frog) of a quantum wave superposition, and the whole wave itself (the bird). Comp suggests that the quantum indeterminacy might be a particular case of the classical comp-1-indeterminacy, but this is not yet proved, and besides the whole UDA will show that if QM is correct, then it has to be that case, with the price of having to derive QM from the global computationalist indeterminacy, that is the one bearing on the universal dovetailing or elementary arithmetic. But this needs step 7. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 29 Mar 2012, at 20:08, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. I will ask you to do the hairsplitting about that YOU, that you are using here, so as to convince me and others that it refutes indeed the indeterminacy about the first person experience displayed in the WM duplication thought experience (UDA step 3). Given that we both agree that we don't die in that experience, and given that you are the one claiming that there is no indeterminate outcome, I will ask to give us an algorithm predicting the result of the future self-localization experience. The outcome is deterministic just like Everett's QM is deterministic. And it has the same problems being given a probabilistic interpretation as EQM. If you duplicated a coin in the transporter experiment the question, Where will you expect to find the coin. has the same problems as Where do you expect to find yourself. The implication is that self is not a unique 'thing' (as for example a soul is assumed to be) but is process that can be realized in different media. I agree. But the experience is lived as unique, so we can follow Plotinus in using the term soul for the owner of the 1-view, that is, the knower. From its pov, it is not duplicable, in the trivial sense that the duplication is never part of his experience. He would not know if we did not give him the protocol. mathematically, this is related to the fact that no machine can know which machine she is, already seen clearly by Post and (re)intuited by Benacerraf, and intuited by the machine itself, accepting the Theaetetus' definition of knowledge. I am not sure the problem of probability is identical in QM and COMP. In QM, Everett showed that the P = A^2 principle does not depend on the choice of the base, so that A can be considered as measuring the relative proportion of possible accessible relative realities. This does not work with finite multiverse, but it works with infinite multiverse, and Gleason theorem justifies the unicity of the measure, for sufficiently complex physical reality (meaning the Hilbert space have to be of dimension bigger than 2. So in my opinion, the Born rule is already explained. With COMP, as I argue, we have to justify the wave itself (assuming QM is correct) from the relative number relations and personal points of view (as done in AUDA, for the logic of measure one). Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/29/2012 12:02 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Mar 2012, at 20:08, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. I will ask you to do the hairsplitting about that YOU, that you are using here, so as to convince me and others that it refutes indeed the indeterminacy about the first person experience displayed in the WM duplication thought experience (UDA step 3). Given that we both agree that we don't die in that experience, and given that you are the one claiming that there is no indeterminate outcome, I will ask to give us an algorithm predicting the result of the future self-localization experience. The outcome is deterministic just like Everett's QM is deterministic. And it has the same problems being given a probabilistic interpretation as EQM. If you duplicated a coin in the transporter experiment the question, Where will you expect to find the coin. has the same problems as Where do you expect to find yourself. The implication is that self is not a unique 'thing' (as for example a soul is assumed to be) but is process that can be realized in different media. I agree. But the experience is lived as unique, so we can follow Plotinus in using the term soul for the owner of the 1-view, that is, the knower. From its pov, it is not duplicable, in the trivial sense that the duplication is never part of his experience. You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that experience would be strange and we would tend to say, Yes but it's still one consciousness. So then the question becomes what do you mean by not experiencing duplication? Is it a mere tautology based on how you define 'consciousness'? He would not know if we did not give him the protocol. mathematically, this is related to the fact that no machine can know which machine she is, already seen clearly by Post and (re)intuited by Benacerraf, and intuited by the machine itself, accepting the Theaetetus' definition of knowledge. I am not sure the problem of probability is identical in QM and COMP. In QM, Everett showed that the P = A^2 principle does not depend on the choice of the base, I don't think that's correct. 'A' is the amplitude of the projection on certain basis determined by what is measured. Yes the Born rule can be applied whatever basis is chosen, but the projection produces different A's. so that A can be considered as measuring the relative proportion of possible accessible relative realities. This does not work with finite multiverse, but it works with infinite multiverse, But infinite multiple worlds create a measure problem. That's one of Adrian Kent's points. and Gleason theorem justifies the unicity of the measure, I'm not sure what you mean by that? for sufficiently complex physical reality (meaning the Hilbert space have to be of dimension bigger than 2. So in my opinion, the Born rule is already explained. With COMP, as I argue, we have to justify the wave itself (assuming QM is correct) from the relative number relations and personal points of view (as done in AUDA, for the logic of measure one). Yes, that would be a signal accomplishment. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 29 March 2012 20:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that experience would be strange and we would tend to say, Yes but it's still one consciousness. So then the question becomes what do you mean by not experiencing duplication? Is it a mere tautology based on how you define 'consciousness'? Surely it's just a necessary prerequisite for accepting the possibility of either MWI or comp? IOW, if one rejects, on whatever grounds, that a unique subjective perspective could be consistent with the objective existence of multiple copies (as I think is the case with Kent) then one is forced also to reject both MWI and comp. Given such a view, neither theory could be a viable explanation for one's lived experience of observing one universe at a time. AFAICS, the more exotic examples you give above, e.g. a distributed process, or a Borg-type group-mind, present no difficulties beyond that for ordinary consciousness. Again, either one accepts that duplication of these states of affairs would be compatible, mutatis mutandis, with the corresponding single universe perspective (however exotic) or not. Given the above, what makes it difficult to make sense of John's objections to Bruno's argument is precisely that he accepts the possibility of multiple copies in a comp or MWI scenario, whilst ignoring the necessity of recovering a singular perspective. But the latter step is a prerequisite, in any scenario, for reproducing the empirically uncertain state of affairs. Without it, the probability of every outcome - as John has continually reiterated - can only ever be 100%! Selection, even if only implicit, is an ineliminable feature of any theory seeking to explain the empirical facts. Kent's proposal is a process that eliminates all branches but one, albeit on a somewhat different basis than Copenhagen. Similarly, the heuristic I suggested in an earlier post entails selection, but in a non-destructive manner. BTW, I had long retained a dim recollection of a similar selection metaphor involving pigeon holes from my youthful SF reading, which I recently re-discovered to be Fred Hoyle's 1960's novella October the First is Too Late. I also found that John Gribbin refers to this very notion in his recent Multiverse book (apparently he was a student of Hoyle's), relating it to the ideas of Deutsch and Barbour. This reinforced my suspicion that they do rely implicitly on such a selection principle, though AFAICS neither of them acknowledge it explicitly. David On 3/29/2012 12:02 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Mar 2012, at 20:08, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 10:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. I will ask you to do the hairsplitting about that YOU, that you are using here, so as to convince me and others that it refutes indeed the indeterminacy about the first person experience displayed in the WM duplication thought experience (UDA step 3). Given that we both agree that we don't die in that experience, and given that you are the one claiming that there is no indeterminate outcome, I will ask to give us an algorithm predicting the result of the future self-localization experience. The outcome is deterministic just like Everett's QM is deterministic. And it has the same problems being given a probabilistic interpretation as EQM. If you duplicated a coin in the transporter experiment the question, Where will you expect to find the coin. has the same problems as Where do you expect to find yourself. The implication is that self is not a unique 'thing' (as for example a soul is assumed to be) but is process that can be realized in different media. I agree. But the experience is lived as unique, so we can follow Plotinus in using the term soul for the owner of the 1-view, that is, the knower. From its pov, it is not duplicable, in the trivial sense that the duplication is never part of his experience. You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that experience would be strange and we would tend to say, Yes but it's still one consciousness. So then the question becomes what do you mean by not experiencing duplication? Is it a mere tautology based on how you define 'consciousness'?
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/29/2012 6:20 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 29 March 2012 20:47, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that experience would be strange and we would tend to say, Yes but it's still one consciousness. So then the question becomes what do you mean by not experiencing duplication? Is it a mere tautology based on how you define 'consciousness'? Surely it's just a necessary prerequisite for accepting the possibility of either MWI or comp? IOW, if one rejects, on whatever grounds, that a unique subjective perspective could be consistent with the objective existence of multiple copies (as I think is the case with Kent) then one is forced also to reject both MWI and comp. Given such a view, neither theory could be a viable explanation for one's lived experience of observing one universe at a time. My reading of Kent is that he rejects MWI. I don't think he believes there is a single conscious copy and the rest are zombies; he believes there's just one world and it is 'selected' probabilistically. AFAICS, the more exotic examples you give above, e.g. a distributed process, or a Borg-type group-mind, present no difficulties beyond that for ordinary consciousness. Again, either one accepts that duplication of these states of affairs would be compatible, mutatis mutandis, with the corresponding single universe perspective (however exotic) or not. Given the above, what makes it difficult to make sense of John's objections to Bruno's argument is precisely that he accepts the possibility of multiple copies in a comp or MWI scenario, whilst ignoring the necessity of recovering a singular perspective. But in Bruno's transporter experiment there isn't *a* singular perspective, there are two different ones. But the latter step is a prerequisite, in any scenario, for reproducing the empirically uncertain state of affairs. Without it, the probability of every outcome - as John has continually reiterated - can only ever be 100%! Selection, even if only implicit, is an ineliminable feature of any theory seeking to explain the empirical facts. But then Everett's QM doesn't explain the facts - because there is no selection. That's part of Kent's criticism. Brent Kent's proposal is a process that eliminates all branches but one, albeit on a somewhat different basis than Copenhagen. Similarly, the heuristic I suggested in an earlier post entails selection, but in a non-destructive manner. BTW, I had long retained a dim recollection of a similar selection metaphor involving pigeon holes from my youthful SF reading, which I recently re-discovered to be Fred Hoyle's 1960's novella October the First is Too Late. I also found that John Gribbin refers to this very notion in his recent Multiverse book (apparently he was a student of Hoyle's), relating it to the ideas of Deutsch and Barbour. This reinforced my suspicion that they do rely implicitly on such a selection principle, though AFAICS neither of them acknowledge it explicitly. David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/29/2012 9:20 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 29 March 2012 20:47, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that experience would be strange and we would tend to say, Yes but it's still one consciousness. So then the question becomes what do you mean by not experiencing duplication? Is it a mere tautology based on how you define 'consciousness'? Surely it's just a necessary prerequisite for accepting the possibility of either MWI or comp? IOW, if one rejects, on whatever grounds, that a unique subjective perspective could be consistent with the objective existence of multiple copies (as I think is the case with Kent) then one is forced also to reject both MWI and comp. Given such a view, neither theory could be a viable explanation for one's lived experience of observing one universe at a time. AFAICS, the more exotic examples you give above, e.g. a distributed process, or a Borg-type group-mind, present no difficulties beyond that for ordinary consciousness. Again, either one accepts that duplication of these states of affairs would be compatible, mutatis mutandis, with the corresponding single universe perspective (however exotic) or not. Given the above, what makes it difficult to make sense of John's objections to Bruno's argument is precisely that he accepts the possibility of multiple copies in a comp or MWI scenario, whilst ignoring the necessity of recovering a singular perspective. But the latter step is a prerequisite, in any scenario, for reproducing the empirically uncertain state of affairs. Without it, the probability of every outcome - as John has continually reiterated - can only ever be 100%! Selection, even if only implicit, is an ineliminable feature of any theory seeking to explain the empirical facts. Kent's proposal is a process that eliminates all branches but one, albeit on a somewhat different basis than Copenhagen. Similarly, the heuristic I suggested in an earlier post entails selection, but in a non-destructive manner. BTW, I had long retained a dim recollection of a similar selection metaphor involving pigeon holes from my youthful SF reading, which I recently re-discovered to be Fred Hoyle's 1960's novella October the First is Too Late. I also found that John Gribbin refers to this very notion in his recent Multiverse book (apparently he was a student of Hoyle's), relating it to the ideas of Deutsch and Barbour. This reinforced my suspicion that they do rely implicitly on such a selection principle, though AFAICS neither of them acknowledge it explicitly. David Hi David and Brent, I have a question. Could it be that the sense of self as being-in-the-world (ala Nagel's bat) is a phenomenon not at all unlike the uniqueness of a fixed point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_point_%28mathematics%29 on a manifold? It seems to me that one of the key aspects of the sense of self or I that it is unique in its association with its location and its memories. Being in two places at the same time would at least be confusing, Try navigating with a combination of two maps - overlay the maps of Washington and Moscow and try to figure out where you are. I offer the movie 12 Monkeys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_Monkeys as a fictional narrative exploring what happens when one's localization is split in the time sense. In my studies, I have considered how the various pathologies of consciousness sketch for us some of the fundamental aspects of consciousness in a 3-p'ish way. For example, the various dissassociative disorders ranging from phantom limb to multiple personality disorders and schizophrenia tell us that an individual's sense of self is strongly correlated with the synchronization of both temporal and spatial queues both internal to the brain and of a person's location. Thus being in two places at the same time is not that much different from having two sets of sense data that are disjoint (in the being in Moscow and Washington) such that unless a single reconciliation of the two is possible, there will be inevitably a splitting of the I's or 1-p. BTW, this line of reasoning argues strongly against the Borg group-mind idea as possibly yielding a consciousness of the same kind as the one that we have because of the inability to define a single point of view given the wide and even disjoint nature of the panorama of sense data that would be involved. Consciousness is, I argue, fixed to a single point and cannot be distributed. Distributed behavior would more correlate to what the psychologist like to call the unconscious.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/29/2012 7:37 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/29/2012 9:20 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 29 March 2012 20:47, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that experience would be strange and we would tend to say, Yes but it's still one consciousness. So then the question becomes what do you mean by not experiencing duplication? Is it a mere tautology based on how you define 'consciousness'? Surely it's just a necessary prerequisite for accepting the possibility of either MWI or comp? IOW, if one rejects, on whatever grounds, that a unique subjective perspective could be consistent with the objective existence of multiple copies (as I think is the case with Kent) then one is forced also to reject both MWI and comp. Given such a view, neither theory could be a viable explanation for one's lived experience of observing one universe at a time. AFAICS, the more exotic examples you give above, e.g. a distributed process, or a Borg-type group-mind, present no difficulties beyond that for ordinary consciousness. Again, either one accepts that duplication of these states of affairs would be compatible, mutatis mutandis, with the corresponding single universe perspective (however exotic) or not. Given the above, what makes it difficult to make sense of John's objections to Bruno's argument is precisely that he accepts the possibility of multiple copies in a comp or MWI scenario, whilst ignoring the necessity of recovering a singular perspective. But the latter step is a prerequisite, in any scenario, for reproducing the empirically uncertain state of affairs. Without it, the probability of every outcome - as John has continually reiterated - can only ever be 100%! Selection, even if only implicit, is an ineliminable feature of any theory seeking to explain the empirical facts. Kent's proposal is a process that eliminates all branches but one, albeit on a somewhat different basis than Copenhagen. Similarly, the heuristic I suggested in an earlier post entails selection, but in a non-destructive manner. BTW, I had long retained a dim recollection of a similar selection metaphor involving pigeon holes from my youthful SF reading, which I recently re-discovered to be Fred Hoyle's 1960's novella October the First is Too Late. I also found that John Gribbin refers to this very notion in his recent Multiverse book (apparently he was a student of Hoyle's), relating it to the ideas of Deutsch and Barbour. This reinforced my suspicion that they do rely implicitly on such a selection principle, though AFAICS neither of them acknowledge it explicitly. David Hi David and Brent, I have a question. Could it be that the sense of self as being-in-the-world (ala Nagel's bat) is a phenomenon not at all unlike the uniqueness of a fixed point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_point_%28mathematics%29 on a manifold? Under what mapping? It seems to me that one of the key aspects of the sense of self or I that it is unique in its association with its location and its memories. Location is just part of one's model of their body. If you had two bodies, one in Moscow and one in Washington, you'd have two viewpoints in 3-space and you'd develop a model of having bodies in both places. Being in two places at the same time would at least be confusing, Try navigating with a combination of two maps - overlay the maps of Washington and Moscow and try to figure out where you are. Ask someone who flies radio control planes. They become able to 'place themselves' in the plane. I offer the movie 12 Monkeys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_Monkeys as a fictional narrative exploring what happens when one's localization is split in the time sense. In my studies, I have considered how the various pathologies of consciousness sketch for us some of the fundamental aspects of consciousness in a 3-p'ish way. For example, the various dissassociative disorders ranging from phantom limb to multiple personality disorders and schizophrenia tell us that an individual's sense of self is strongly correlated with the synchronization of both temporal and spatial queues both internal to the brain and of a person's location. Thus being in two places at the same time is not that much different from having two sets of sense data that are disjoint (in the being in Moscow and Washington) such that unless a single reconciliation of the two is possible, there will be inevitably a splitting of the I's or 1-p. Not at all. I take the opposite lesson. Your brain invents your sense of self. The difference between the
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/29/2012 11:46 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/29/2012 7:37 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/29/2012 9:20 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 29 March 2012 20:47, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: You don't know that. It's an assumption based on the idea that conscious experience is something a certain physical body, a brain, does. But if conscious experience is a process then it is certainly possible to create a process that is aware of being in both Washington and Moscow at the same time. Think of a brain wired via RF links to eyeballs in M and W. Or The Borg of Star Trek. Of course that experience would be strange and we would tend to say, Yes but it's still one consciousness. So then the question becomes what do you mean by not experiencing duplication? Is it a mere tautology based on how you define 'consciousness'? Surely it's just a necessary prerequisite for accepting the possibility of either MWI or comp? IOW, if one rejects, on whatever grounds, that a unique subjective perspective could be consistent with the objective existence of multiple copies (as I think is the case with Kent) then one is forced also to reject both MWI and comp. Given such a view, neither theory could be a viable explanation for one's lived experience of observing one universe at a time. AFAICS, the more exotic examples you give above, e.g. a distributed process, or a Borg-type group-mind, present no difficulties beyond that for ordinary consciousness. Again, either one accepts that duplication of these states of affairs would be compatible, mutatis mutandis, with the corresponding single universe perspective (however exotic) or not. Given the above, what makes it difficult to make sense of John's objections to Bruno's argument is precisely that he accepts the possibility of multiple copies in a comp or MWI scenario, whilst ignoring the necessity of recovering a singular perspective. But the latter step is a prerequisite, in any scenario, for reproducing the empirically uncertain state of affairs. Without it, the probability of every outcome - as John has continually reiterated - can only ever be 100%! Selection, even if only implicit, is an ineliminable feature of any theory seeking to explain the empirical facts. Kent's proposal is a process that eliminates all branches but one, albeit on a somewhat different basis than Copenhagen. Similarly, the heuristic I suggested in an earlier post entails selection, but in a non-destructive manner. BTW, I had long retained a dim recollection of a similar selection metaphor involving pigeon holes from my youthful SF reading, which I recently re-discovered to be Fred Hoyle's 1960's novella October the First is Too Late. I also found that John Gribbin refers to this very notion in his recent Multiverse book (apparently he was a student of Hoyle's), relating it to the ideas of Deutsch and Barbour. This reinforced my suspicion that they do rely implicitly on such a selection principle, though AFAICS neither of them acknowledge it explicitly. David Hi David and Brent, I have a question. Could it be that the sense of self as being-in-the-world (ala Nagel's bat) is a phenomenon not at all unlike the uniqueness of a fixed point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_point_%28mathematics%29 on a manifold? Under what mapping? Hi Brent, The moment to moment passage of time. Think about it, our bodies are constantly in flux and we are never in the same place, and yet we have this strange sense of I am what I remember myself to be that persists. How is that? Sure, we can think of moments individually in terms of infinite computations, but what is dovetailing them? We can postulate a universal dovetailer, but how does it work for multiple and distinct 1-p? I am not you and we are not the Man in Washington nor the Man in Moscow, but those ideas are considerations of individual snapshots and we have a movie to explain. We are many disjoint observers, each in our very own version of a universe and yet have the illusion that we are all in the same space-time... Maybe our universes just are similar enough that we happen to be able to agree on facts ... Nevertheless, even taking Bruno's COMP seriously, we cannot all be one and the same computation for it can only have one and only one inside view. It seems to me that one of the key aspects of the sense of self or I that it is unique in its association with its location and its memories. Location is just part of one's model of their body. If you had two bodies, one in Moscow and one in Washington, you'd have two viewpoints in 3-space and you'd develop a model of having bodies in both places. And what exactly is the point of view that has these two in its frame? This entire conversation tacitly assumes that somehow we can step into a frame of reference that makes us a voyeur looking down from above and being able to see and know some 3-p and simultaneously have the 1-p that you have
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 28 Mar 2012, at 06:07, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: so you do get the point of the difference of the 3-view and the 1- view, Truer words were never spoken. If 2 different consciousnesses can not be distinguished in my symmetrical room from the first person point of view or from the third person point of view then it seems pointless to insist that there are really 2 and not just one mind involved. We agree on this since the beginning. You are unclear if this means or not if you get the difference between the 1-view and the 3-view, given that I was commenting a paragraph were you were disagreeing with that difference. If this thing you call 1-comp indeterminacy were untrue then we would always know what the environment was going to throw at us next and we could always predict our actions, This does not follow logically. Of course it follows logically! All 1-comp indeterminacy means is you never know what's coming next, a fact that is as true as it is trivial. ? very obviously this is untrue so of course 1-comp indeterminacy is not controversial. It's not new or deep either. You fail to give me the reference, Reference? How can I give a reference when the term 1-comp indeterminacy is your own invention? The only reference I can give you is Forest Gump, life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get. ? It seems to me that you are playing with words. he usual coin is indeterminate by classical ignorance, but not for the Laplacean God. It's irrelevant if the coin is deterministic or not because either way I don't know what the coin is going to do so the best I can do is use probabilities. Different theories explains probabilities differently. but so does the copy (or maybe he really is the original and you are the copy), you raise your right hand and you see on the video monitor the both images do too, you jump up and down but you see both images jump up and down. Not only can't you tell if you are the copy or the original you can't even tell which image on that video screen is you and which is the other fellow. If subjectively there is no difference and objectively there is no difference then there is no difference between 3-you and 1-you. OK. Here you are clearly wrong, and this by your own argument. An outside observer can see that there are two bodies Yes two bodies, but we're not talking about bodies, we were talking about points of view and consciousness. On the contrary, we are talking on both. Indeed we are interested in the relation between the two. where the 1-view is unique, as you insist (and are right). So, there are two 3-you, and only one 1-you, and this makes them obviously different notion. But you can see there are 2 bodies of Bruno Marchal just as well as the outside observer, and you can not tell which one is you any better than the outside observer can! No. The outsider can see both necks for example. The insider cannot be sure that he is not in front of some mirror, according to your own analysis. The third party sees the 2 bodies behave and answer questions in exactly the same way, the third party can not distinguish between the 2 consciousness, so it would make it meaningless to say there are two; the observer sees 2 chunks of matter but they are both behaving in a Brunomarchalian way. And you Bruno Marchal can not determine which of the 2 bodies is you either, if I instantly exchanged the position of the 2 bodies you would not notice the slightest change, nor could the very universe itself. None of this should be surprising if we understand that Bruno Marchal is not a noun but a adjective. Words play. Have you read step 2? It is the step which explains more easily the difference between the 1-view and the 3-view, already without duplication. The difference between the 1-view and the 3-view is the difference between a body and the private experience of the owner of that body, or bodies in case of identical bodies. The outside observer can not distinguish 2 conscious beings inside that cylindrical symmetrical room but only one, and the exact same thing is true of you Bruno Marchal, looking at the live video from the camera in the center of the ceiling of that room you can not distinguish which body is you nor could you be expected to as both chunks of matter are behaving in a Brunomarchalian way. So you fail to distinguish the 1-view and the 3-view. (Re)read step 2, and tell me if you agree or not. This thing you call first person indeterminacy just means a person doesn’t always know what they will see or what they will do next, that's it; and people had discovered this fact of life many thousands of years before Heisenberg or Godel or Turing or you were born. You betray yourself here. You are telling me
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 4:40 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: If 2 different consciousnesses can not be distinguished in my symmetrical room from the first person point of view or from the third person point of view then it seems pointless to insist that there are really 2 and not just one mind involved. We agree on this since the beginning. Then why why why do you keep talking about things being the same from the 3-view but not from the 1-view. It seems to me that you are playing with words. Words are the only means we have to communicate with and I need to know what they mean and that is not always obvious in very extreme and unusual (but not illogical) situations. But you can see there are 2 bodies of Bruno Marchal just as well as the outside observer, and you can not tell which one is you any better than the outside observer can! No. The outsider can see both necks for example. The insider cannot be sure that he is not in front of some mirror, according to your own analysis. No, you can touch the other fellow and he does not feel like a glass mirror, you can shake his hand, punch him in the jaw, do whatever 2 people can do when they meet each other, but if I instantly exchanged the position of the 2 bodies you would not notice the slightest difference, not from the 1-view or 2-view or 3-view or any view, the very universe itself would notice no difference. If subjectively it makes no difference and objectively it makes no difference then call me crazy but I say it makes no difference. So you fail to distinguish the 1-view and the 3-view. Yes, the universe itself can't distinguish between them and I'm not better than the universe. OK. So what is new with comp is a form of indeterminacy which even in theory we cannot predict, and which does not rely on physical experimentation and extrapolation, nor on the same anti-diagonalization used by Gödel or Turing. So in this hypothetical non quantum mechanical non Godel-Turing universe I could know at least in theory with 100% certainty that I will see Washington provided the universe was also simple enough for me to know the initial conditions and simple enough for me to calculate with them to obtain a outcome. And because I'd know I would see Washington I would know with 100% certainty that I will be the Washington man. I ask again what is new or deep here? Never say cannot be proven without adding by a specific machine M There are true statements that cannot be proven by a machine that is both consistent and complete, and any machine powerful enough to do arithmetic can not be complete. You want to know what is the probability you will become the Moscow man, but the only way that can happen is if you see images of Moscow, that's what being the Moscow man means. You can apply that argument to the throwing of a coin. That contradicts the statement above that you can use probability for the coin, so why can't you use it for the probability of feeling to be the Moscow man? In common usage when you say what is the probability I will see heads when I flip this coin? there is not a 100% chance I will see heads as there is in the thought experiment with the cities, but even more important in everyday use it is not needed to make what might seem like hairsplitting distinctions on who I is, but such exactitude is needed if duplicating chambers are thrown into the mix. And if there is any mystery and indeterminacy in this thing you call first person indeterminacy it quickly reduces out to types of indeterminacy we've already known about, some for many thousands of years and others for only about 80. Given that the probability concerns the 1-views (that is the 1-view from the 1-person Pov), saying 100% for Moscow and 100% for Washington entails that you predict that you will *feel* to be in the two places at once. You would feel to be in two places at once except for one thing, you has been duplicated. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
2012/3/28 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 4:40 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: If 2 different consciousnesses can not be distinguished in my symmetrical room from the first person point of view or from the third person point of view then it seems pointless to insist that there are really 2 and not just one mind involved. We agree on this since the beginning. Then why why why do you keep talking about things being the same from the 3-view but not from the 1-view. Comp (and MWI) is a deterministic theory... 3 POV could be called the bird view, the totality view (the view in which comp and MWI are deterministic), 1 POV the frog view (and many frogs having all there 1 POV, have 1 POV plural/shared) It seems to me that you are playing with words. Words are the only means we have to communicate with and I need to know what they mean and that is not always obvious in very extreme and unusual (but not illogical) situations. But you can see there are 2 bodies of Bruno Marchal just as well as the outside observer, and you can not tell which one is you any better than the outside observer can! No. The outsider can see both necks for example. The insider cannot be sure that he is not in front of some mirror, according to your own analysis. No, you can touch the other fellow and he does not feel like a glass mirror, you can shake his hand, punch him in the jaw, do whatever 2 people can do when they meet each other, but if I instantly exchanged the position of the 2 bodies you would not notice the slightest difference, not from the 1-view or 2-view or 3-view or any view, the very universe itself would notice no difference. If subjectively it makes no difference and objectively it makes no difference then call me crazy but I say it makes no difference. So you fail to distinguish the 1-view and the 3-view. Yes, the universe itself can't distinguish between them and I'm not better than the universe. OK. So what is new with comp is a form of indeterminacy which even in theory we cannot predict, and which does not rely on physical experimentation and extrapolation, nor on the same anti-diagonalization used by Gödel or Turing. So in this hypothetical non quantum mechanical non Godel-Turing universe I could know at least in theory with 100% certainty that I will see Washington provided the universe was also simple enough for me to know the initial conditions and simple enough for me to calculate with them to obtain a outcome. And because I'd know I would see Washington I would know with 100% certainty that I will be the Washington man. I ask again what is new or deep here? Your bad faith ? Never say cannot be proven without adding by a specific machine M There are true statements that cannot be proven by a machine that is both consistent and complete, and any machine powerful enough to do arithmetic can not be complete. You want to know what is the probability you will become the Moscow man, but the only way that can happen is if you see images of Moscow, that's what being the Moscow man means. You can apply that argument to the throwing of a coin. That contradicts the statement above that you can use probability for the coin, so why can't you use it for the probability of feeling to be the Moscow man? In common usage when you say what is the probability I will see heads when I flip this coin? there is not a 100% chance I will see heads as there is in the thought experiment with the cities, but even more important in everyday use it is not needed to make what might seem like hairsplitting distinctions on who I is, but such exactitude is needed if duplicating chambers are thrown into the mix. We are talking about comp (it would also be the same if we were talking about MWI)... the *usual everyday universe* in these settings is a duplicating chamber. So either we can *never* talk about 'I' (but as I use 'I', this proves you're wrong), or your argument is a proof that comp (and MWI) is false. Quentin And if there is any mystery and indeterminacy in this thing you call first person indeterminacy it quickly reduces out to types of indeterminacy we've already known about, some for many thousands of years and others for only about 80. Given that the probability concerns the 1-views (that is the 1-view from the 1-person Pov), saying 100% for Moscow and 100% for Washington entails that you predict that you will *feel* to be in the two places at once. You would feel to be in two places at once except for one thing, you has been duplicated. We know, that's not the question. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options,
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 27 Mar 2012, at 06:14, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Give me a example of 2 conscious beings that are identical by what you call 3-view but NOT identical by what you call 1-view, show they deserve different names, do that and I might get a idea what you're talking about; but don't give me that diaries business, if the diaries are different a third party can see that just as well as the individuals who wrote them. Just one clear non mystical example where objectively 2 things are identical but subjectively they are not, that's all I ask and I don't think it's a unreasonable request as your proof depends on there being such a difference. You ask me something impossible I agree it is impossible, so this distinction between 3-view and 1-view that is so important in your proof turns out to be rather silly. How does this follows? What you say amounts to the following fact on which we both agree: 3-Body(A) is sufficiently similar to 3-Body(B) entails that (1-view-A = 1-view-B) And we also agree that the reverse is false: (1-view-A = 1-view-B) does not make (3-Body(A) similar to 3-Body(B)). Many posts you sent illustrates that you agree with this, and so you do get the point of the difference of the 3-view and the 1-view, so I fail to see any problem in the use of those notions. They are different because one live in W and the other live in W. I previously said that it is probably meaningless to talk about the position of a consciousness and you agreed with me, so all the above means is that one consciousness forms memories caused by images of Moscow the other forms memories caused by images of Washington, the images are different so the memories are different, so the consciousness of the two is different so they become different people. Yes. The thing that differentiates the minds is not position but different memories, if Washington and Moscow were identical cities then there would still be just one consciousness, but the cities are very different so the two minds are two. Everybody agrees that if 2 minds are different then there are 2 different minds, but I insist that if 2 minds are identical then there is really only one mind (not to be confused with brains) Yes. Note that later we might still say one mind, but put different weight on them. This will lead to open questions, and they are premature here. So I agree with you, but warn that we can add some nuances which might play a role in the comp 1-indeterminacy measure problem. But I agree with all what you have said up to here, except the wrong attribution. while your proof is built on the assumption that if 2 minds are identical they are still distinguishable at least to themselves, Like this for example. That's non sense. I have never said that, nor does that play any role in the 1-indeterminacy. The 1-indeterminacy bears explicitly on the future different experiences. That should be obvious: if the experiences reains the same, the probability question cannot even be asked. and that is the reason I don't think its productive to study your proof after that point. ... because you attribute me an idea I have never asserted, and which would already contradict the definition I gave for comp. No 1-view can be duplicated. Why the hell not? Exactly for the reason you insist yourself so much on. The 1-view is always one mind, which is identical with itself from his 1-pov. Both people in the two cities feel one and entire. Both people will feel IDENTICALLY until differences between Moscow and Washington cause them to form different memories. Exactly, and that is what gives sense to the question in Helsinki: where will I feel to be tomorrow?. The question makes sense because comp makes you surviving the duplication, one and entire, somewhere. All what you say entails that in Helsinki the guy can understand that there is some certainties, like I will feel to be in M or in W, and I will not feel to be in the two places simultaneously, If I say that I will feel in W, then the me in M will rightly consider that I was wrong, etc. Then, with this precise protocol, or its iteration, you can deduce that the guy is maximally ignorant on W or M, and can put a uniform measure of probability on the set {W, M}. That is P = 1/2. There is a sense for the guy in W to say that he has been annihilated in Helsinki and reconstituted in W. Then you get annihilated every time you get on a bus going from point A to point B. Do you really want to say that? That will be indeed a consequence of comp. It can be said that quantum mechanics, which I do not assume, *confirms* that aspect of comp. Good point. So you have redefined the word annihilated so that it now means pretty much nothing at all, and thus we will need to invent a new word
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 3/23/2012 3:44 PM, Joseph Knight wrote: On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 6:40 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 3/21/2012 8:16 PM, Joseph Knight wrote: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: Dear Joseph, How do numbers implement that necessary capacity to define each other and themselves? What kind of relational structure is necessary? From what I can tell, it looks like a net of Indra where every jewel, here a number, reflects all others. This is a non-well founded structure. You'll have to be more explicit than this if I am to make any sense of it. Dear Joseph, I first must say that I appreciate very much this exchange as it forces me to better refine my wordings and explanations. In the passage above I was trying to get at something that I see in the implied structure of numbers, given Bruno's amazing ideas. Remember, I think in pictures, so the relations between numbers - with their Goedelizations and Loeb references - is to me a network where any one entity - here an integer - is defined by and related to all others. It looks like the structure of an infinite Webster Dictionary! What I also see is that the links are not of a constant length - some connections between numbers are tiny - like the link between prime pairs - while others are infinitely long. What I am trying to point out is that this structure, is very much* unlike* the structure that we think of when we just consider the number line where such a line is made up only of integers - 0, 1, 2, 3, ... This is all nice, but I can't understand it unless you give make this more formal/precise. Do you only think in words? I'm just curious... I will try harder to sketch the idea in words for you. I do tend to think more in words or symbols than in pictures, but my intent here is really just to get a precise understanding of what you are saying. I hope you agree that this is necessary! Think of how Goedelizations and Goedel numbers work as a visual picture, perhaps as a poitrait by Matisse or Dali. We have a string of numbers that represents another set of numbers *and* some arithmetic operation on those numbers. Any such Goedel number is thus the equivalent to a handle on the space of numbers (which is, by definition, a one dimensional manifold http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve#Topology, also see 1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evenly_spaced_integer_topology and 2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_sets#Topological_spaces), therefore if it is possible to have an infinity of goedel numbers in the integers then the resulting manifold would an infinity of handles (disjoint manifolds) on it. How many unique paths would exist on such a manifold? What is the average length of a path? (Please recall the fact that a handle can have any size iff it is simply connected and analytic) There is no such an average for the only faithful sample of the set of possible lengths of paths is the set itself (infinite sets are isomorphic to any of their proper subsets). Remember that we can also have goedel numbers operating on (mapping into) dovetailed strings of goedel numbers and goedel numbers can have arbitrarily long number string lengths.. This makes the dimension of this manifold to be infinite because of the disjointness of the handles that are induced by the Goedelizing, thus making it (modulo the requirements of spaces to exist) an infinite space. It is only if the requirements of a spacehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_%28mathematics%29not being met that this would not occur. Given that a geodelization introduces arithmetic into the set of numbers then is automatically qualifies a goedelized number line to be the dual of a space (via the Stone representation theoremhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_representation_theorem ). Thanks for being explicit. But as I have said before, you fail to convince me of the relevance of these mathematical gymnastics. I can see what you are saying, but it does not seem insightful to me. QED. The visual mode and the symbol mode of languages seem to have a strange conjugacy Numbers as Bruno is considering them, I contend, has a structure that mathematicians denote as non-well founded in the sense that there is no basic building block out of which this structure is constructed unless we force it into a very tight straight jacket. One example of just a constraint occurs when we think of numbers as von Neumann numeralshttp://bmanolov.free.fr/von-neumann-integer.phpor something like: s, s(), s(()), s((())), ... - where s is the null set which we can define in terms of Spencer-Brown's laws of form as the Double Cross (see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Laws_of_Form_-_double_cross.gif), my point being that we only obtain a
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 25 Mar 2012, at 06:09, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Then what the hell IS the point you are making? That comp entails 1-indeterminacy. Comp entails indeterminacy PERIOD. Comp is widely known as a 3-deterministic theory. Give me a example of 2 conscious beings that are identical by what you call 3-view but NOT identical by what you call 1-view, show they deserve different names, do that and I might get a idea what you're talking about; but don't give me that diaries business, if the diaries are different a third party can see that just as well as the individuals who wrote them. Just one clear non mystical example where objectively 2 things are identical but subjectively they are not, that's all I ask and I don't think it's a unreasonable request as your proof depends on there being such a difference. You ask me something impossible, and provably impossible once we assume comp. It is not related to the 1-indeterminacy. I mean that's the pont of the step 3 And that's why I think it's a waste of time to even read step 4, it's built on a distinction without a difference. Where is such a thing? The 1-difference does not come from the 3- difference between the copies, but between their reconstitution in different places. The point of the whole UDA is to understand that physics is a branch of arithmetic/computer science. As I said before, although I'm not certain I think you could very well be right about that, but you have not proven it because in your proof you make a assumption that is not only far from obvious but one that I believe is downright false, the assumption that 2 identical consciousness are not identical and thus need different names, like view-1 and view-3. I don't do that assumption. Tell me where. You have introduce that idea, in a different thought experiences, and I said that I agree with you. It is just non relevant. when the diaries diverge the person will too and become 2, both are the original person and neither is each other. Correct. That is part of the explanation of the comp indeterminacy. I'm glad you agree that the one becomes 2 during the duplicating process, then obviously you cannot predict a single unique occurrence that those 2 things will experience because no such thing exists to predict, Of course those things exist, because the copies, by comp, are not zombie, and, by comp, have both the same right to claim to be the original. They are different because one live in W and the other live in W. two things can not be unique. All you're really saying in this 1- indeterminism stuff is that 2 is not equal to one, you can not put 2 things (like you) into a one to one correspondence with one thing (like Moscow or like Washington). I might say that indeed. I just make it more precise. And explain the consequences. All your confusion stems from the fact that you say I have been duplicated but don't really mean it and still assume there is only one I. You say Bruno Marchal will feel he is in Washington only and Bruno Marchal will feel he is in Moscow only but I will feel like he is in one city and one city only, and that would be true if there were only one I, but there is not because *YOU* HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED. This does not make sense. No 1-view can be duplicated. Both people in the two cities feel one and entire. So they can say I have been 3- duplicated (like my body in Helsinki has been duplicated), but they will add but now I feel one and entire in W, and I could not have predicted that. The same, but more strikingly, with the movie-multiplication. Each resulting copies will say I have been 3-multiplied every 1/24 second for 90 minutes, but my personal experience is that I have seen one definite and precise movie, and I have no clue how I could predict which one I was about to see personally. There is a sense for the guy in W to say that he has been annihilated in Helsinki and reconstituted in W. Then you get annihilated every time you get on a bus going from point A to point B. Do you really want to say that? That will be indeed a consequence of comp. It can be said that quantum mechanics, which I do not assume, *confirms* that aspect of comp. Good point. if you grasp the 1-indeterminacy, you grasp step 3, I grasped indeterminacy long before I started talking with you, but you claim that 1-indeterminacy is different from 3-indeterminacy and from physical indeterminacy and from mathematical indeterminacy and your claim is based on nothing more than the fact that the number 1 is not the same as the number 2. Like you were thinking that there is only one kind of random string, you seems to believe that all indeterminacy are equivalent. But phenomenologically identical indeterminacy does not need to have the same 3-explanation. Just compare
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 24 Mar 2012, at 21:10, meekerdb wrote: On 3/24/2012 12:37 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: You keep asking who is this you Yes. it is the usual you, as the one you use in your everyday The word you works fine in the usual everyday world, No, please answer the last part of the message. The everyday world if MWI is true, is a duplicating chamber. Yes, and I think Bruno's argument is to show that if consciousness is a kind of computation It is not exactly that, but OK. Comp is really just yes doctor. A belief in a sort of possible reincarnation. It is better to see it that way, so that we don't need to decide, in the attempt to figure out what matter and consciousness is, between what is Turing computable and what is Turing recoverable through the first person indeterminacies. I currently tend to think that consciousness is not Turing computable, but 100% Turing recoverable. Consciousness is the quintessence of the 1-view. then diverging computations would produce the same kind of uncertainty that QM does in the MW interpretation. However, that doesn't solve the problem it just makes two problems the same. Well, assuming both COMP, *and* QM. So we don't know that yet. COMP makes the problem more complex, because the SWE itself has to be explained phenomenologically or epistemologically. If both COMP and QM are correct, then UDA proves the existence of a deduction of QM from COMP, that is from the comp TOE of your choice, like the tiny sigma_1 complete fragment of arithmetic. The advantage of comp is that if you accept the knowledge notion given by Theaetetus then COMP explains both the quanta and the qualia (by the divine hypostases, the intensional variant of G* minus G). Technically the quanta seem to appear there, and this makes the quanta into first person (plural) notion, which is confirmed by Everett's multiplication of populations of persons, the contagiousness of the linear superposition. At the bottom of what is observable, the linear rules, comp-apparently. Unfortunately, the arithmetical quantization [] p is written in Z1*, that is precisely that [] p is Bp Dp, that p is, dually, Bp v Dp, so that []p is [](Bp v Dp) = B(Bp v Dp) D(Bp v Dp), and then to translate some Bell inequality, you need to evaluate formula nesting the quantization ([] ([] # ...), which makes most quantum logical assertion of that complexity still untractable today, despite the decidability of Z1*). Bruno In Everett's MWI there is a problem saying what probabilities mean, which is just the same as the one in the transporter thought experiment(c.f. arXiv:0905.0624v1 by Ardian Kent). Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 24 Mar 2012, at 21:21, meekerdb wrote: On 3/24/2012 12:58 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Google on theaetetus. Socrates asked to Theaetetus to define knowledge. Theatetus gives many definitions that Socrates critizes/refutes, each of them. One of them consists in defining knowledge by belief, in modern time the mental state, or the computational state of the belief and the knowledge is the same, and a belief becomes a knowledge only when it is (whatever the reason or absence of reason) true. Another one is the justified true belief, which is the one which you can translate in arithmetic with Gödel's predicate. You can read Bp p by I can justify p from my previous beliefs AND it is the case that p. To give you an example, if the snow was blue, a machine asserting snow is blue can be said to know that snow is blue. Indeed, the machine asserts the snow is blue, and it is the case that snow is blue (given the assumption). The problem (for some) with that theory is that it entails that, when awake, we cannot know if we are dreaming or not, although in dream we can know that we are dreaming, the same for being not correct. It is not a problem for comp which makes that ignorance unavoidable. For a machine that we know to be arithmetically correct, we know that Bp and Bp p are equivalent. Yet, the machine cannot know that about herself, and the logic of Bp and of Bp p are different. They obeys to the modal logics G and S4Grz, but I guess you need to read some book or some web pages to see what I mean here. I find your explications of knowledge to be confusing. You refer to Theaetetus who said knowledge = true belief. But in your modal logic formulation B stands for either provable or proven (Beweisbar). Provable and believed are too very different things. Hmm... I am just using Dennett's intentional stance toward machine. A machine believes p, really means only that the machine assert p. I limit myself to machine having their beliefs closed from the modus ponens rule, and obeying classical logic, and applying classical logic on their description etc. I limit myself on classically self- referentially correct machine with respect to some other possible machines or oracles. I think that knowledge consists of a belief that is both true and causally connected to the thing believed (c.f. Gettier's paradox). That is not incompatible with the Theaetetus' idea. Somehow the whole problem is there. Of course belief that is held because the proposition is proven from some axioms does have a causal connection to the axioms. Yes. And the axioms can be any successful memes in the way to unravel a difficulty. Axioms which solves many problems and many class of problems can win local games. I identify partially a person with the set of its beliefs. More concrete person can revised beliefs (normally), which is not used here, given that I restrict myself of the math of the correct machine. But that is more than just believed. Because you talk from the point of view of a much more complex consistent (let us hope) extension, viewed at some level. For the interview I limit myself to an apparently simple machine with beliefs, that we all believe in (I hope). The problem then arises when you say things like, We know there are true but unprovable facts about arithmetic. No. About the machine. Sometimes that machine is Peano Arithmetic, because it is the better known Löbian theory. It is an axiomatizable theory, which means, by a theorem of Craig, a recursively enumerable set of beliefs. We only 'know' those things in different meta-system where they do have a causal connection to other axioms we hypothesize as true. Of course. The points is that the Löbian machine does that too, and can even do it for themselves. This gives them ability to climb the constructive transfinite, and to develop talks and mind tools from beyond the constructive. But ultimately we cannot 'know' that axioms are true - as you say we just bet on them. I think so. Even unconsciously, when our brain conceptualizes that there is a reality behind the back of the computer screen. We extrapolate all the times, and we have partial controls and partial responsibilities and those kinds of things. The nice happening here is that by the incompleteness, Bp can't be confused with Bp p. By incompleteness Bf does not imply f, so Bf is not the same as Bf f. (Beliefs can be wrong. Knowledge can't, by definition). This shows that the same set of believed arithmetical sentences can be seen from many points of views. They provide an arithmetical interpretation of Plotinus, through what happens when a universal machine looks inward. It applies to us, tangentially, as far as we are self-referentially correct ourselves, tangentially. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 26, 11:41 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Mar 2012, at 22:59, Craig Weinberg wrote: What is it you think my theory wants you not to ask? Where does matter come from? Matter comes from sense, as does 'where' and 'come from'. Where does sense come from? Everywhere Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 24, 3:58 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: OK, nice. Many confuse comp (I am a machine) and digital physics (reality is a machine), but comp makes reality, whatever it can be, being NOT a machine, nor the output of a machine. It is more a perspective effect on infinities of computations. A computer's 1p reality would be digital physics though. If I am Super Mario, my universe is a digital reality. It seems that you say comp says that Super Mario will doubt his reality is digital, which I would agree with if I believed comp. Super Mario's reality could be a machine or not a machine but his 1p of it is digital because I, as programmer, have 3p views of its digits. Of course, I say there is more to it than that: In fact Super Mario has no 1p at all, and is only a 3p avatar simulating our own 1p world semiotics. Our own 1p actually permeates 3p because sensemaking is grounded in the unity of singularity as a natural self dividing into multiplicity rather than aggregates of data imitating the 3p functions of a self. UDA explains why the contrary occurs, through the first person indeterminacy bearing on a very huge and complex arithmetical reality. Why does hugeness, complexity, first person, or indeterminacy affect whether something is digital or not? Because there is a continuum of computational histories (computations) going through your state in arithmetic, or in the UD. There are histories. OK. Why does that make them digital or not? I assume I am a machine. Then the first person notion are NOT machine, they are NOT digitalisable for the first person point of view. Does that mean that the only justification for saying they are not digital is because our experience is not digital and you assume that machines are like us? The rest follows from the 1-indeterminacy and its invariance for the huge delays in the UD virtual reconstitutions. Ask more if this is unclear, but you are supposed to have study the UDA. Yes, I don't really get where 'delays' come from. This is explained already in step 2, and then in the fact that the Universal Dovetailer dovetails. It run all computations, but some are infinite, so it runs them little pieces by little pieces, and introduce vast and many delays in all computations. I have a similar view but don't limit it to computation. The cosmos is a process of nesting frames of experience, creating a concrete interior semiotic medium of nested frequencies ('time') and an abstract exterior semiotic medium of nested scales ('space'). The process is computational, but what is being computed is sense and motive. Does the UDA exist in 'time'? Is time an inevitable epi- of +, *, and n? I guess you mean the UD. UDA is for the 8 step UD *Argument*. Yes, comp makes all notions of time phenomenological, except the UD time steps, which are based on the successor relation s(x) = s(x) + 1. But physical time and subjective duration needs longer explanations, and are mainly indexical first person (plural, singular) notions. Time then exists as a consequence of UD, not a primitive within which UD computes and wouldn't have any 'delays'. Still not seeing a connection with whether something is digital or not. If we are digital, our experience bears on an infinite set of computations, and the result is not digital. I let you study a bit more the UDA. Yeah, I don't understand. Does Super Mario's experience bear on an infinite set of computations? Second, the first person impression of the machine might be (and is necessarily, once you accept Theaetetus' insight) a non digitalizable truth, from the machine point of view. Which of Theaetetus' insight do you mean? The definition of knowledge by true belief. Kp = Bp p. I think I know what that is, but since Google shows nothing at all for it, please spell it out for me one more time. Google on theaetetus. Socrates asked to Theaetetus to define knowledge. Theatetus gives many definitions that Socrates critizes/refutes, each of them. One of them consists in defining knowledge by belief, in modern time the mental state, or the computational state of the belief and the knowledge is the same, and a belief becomes a knowledge only when it is (whatever the reason or absence of reason) true. Another one is the justified true belief, which is the one which you can translate in arithmetic with Gödel's predicate. You can read Bp p by I can justify p from my previous beliefs AND it is the case that p. To give you an example, if the snow was blue, a machine asserting snow is blue can be said to know that snow is blue. Indeed, the machine asserts the snow is blue, and it is the case that snow is blue (given the assumption). The problem (for some) with that theory is that it entails that, when awake, we cannot know if we are dreaming or not, although in dream we can know that we are dreaming, the same for being not correct. It is
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 23 Mar 2012, at 22:14, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You are still avoiding the WM duplication. There is no spliting in Many Worlds unless something is different, if 2 universes are identical then they have merged and there is now only one universe. I can accept that, and that is why I often said splitting/ differentiation. I use in comp, to make the notion of the comp- measure more intuitive, the Y = II rule, which means that a bifurcation in the future backtrack on the past. the copy and the original agree on what occurred, so according to you the first person perspective, the one that both you and I believe is most important, is identical; so there is only one perspective, one consciousness. Sure. This does not invalidate the point I am making. It does not address the point at all. Then what the hell IS the point you are making? That comp entails 1-indeterminacy. 5 I mean that's the pont of the step 3). The point of the whole UDA is to understand that physics is a branch of arithmetic/computer science. In the thought experiment I am using, the content of the diaries are equal up to some pages, and then they diverge. And when the diaries diverge the person will too and become 2, both are the original person and neither is each other. Correct. That is part of the explanation of the comp indeterminacy. The experiencer tries to predict which branch they will live. If the experiencer believes that when something is duplicated it remains singular then any prediction made regarding it will be gibberish. Others and myself have answered this many times. You continue to avoid the points. It's rather easy to avoid your points as you have NOT mentioned a single one, you just tell me to follow these wonderful but phantom points. Each step in the UDA has a precise point. You fail to say what is your problem with them. Like Brent said, the difference is between annihilation and no reconstitution (= dying), and annihilation + reconstitution (= teleportation, or duplication, etc.). The fact of the matter is that the Bruno Marchal of noon yesterday has not been duplicated or teleported or reconstituted, the Bruno Marchal of right now remembers being him but he is different and has memories that other version did not have; so if you insist that the Helsinki man is dead Not only I don't insist on that, but I have never asserted it. then to be consistent you must say that Bruno Marchal of noon yesterday is dead, and if you insist that the Helsinki man has been annihilated then to be consistent you must say that Bruno Marchal of noon yesterday has been annihilated. Are you certain you really want to do this? There is a sense for the guy in W to say that he has been annihilated in Helsinki and reconstituted in W. Please, answer my post of the 19 mars, I don't know what 19 mars is and I thought I'd responded to all your posts but if I missed one where you made everything clear (I'm not holding my breath) then please resend it. See below, you have fail to answer more than four posts. Things are rather simple. Yes, but not simple in a good way. You pretend that there is no 1-indeterminacy. I insist that indeterminacy exists in every one of the many thought experiments proposed by members of this list during the last month, but you pretend to have discovered a brand new form of it never known before. I see no evidence you have done anything of the sort. As you said yourself the 1-indeterminacy which accompanies the classical self-duplication is the building block of the whole UDA. You said it was nonsense. It looks you grasp it now, although it is not clear that you have seen how different it is from all other form of indeterminacy known before. But if you grasp the 1-indeterminacy, you grasp step 3, and so tell me what you think about step 4 (in sane04). Then you have to explain to us how you predict the movie that you will remember having seen when the movie-multiplication experience is completed. Bruno Marchal has asked this many times but despite many requests for clarification of who you is such a explanation, that would establish a new sort indeterminacy, has not been received. It is enough to interview each copies, they understand automatically what we mean by you. You are the only one having a problem with this. You seem to be negative and dismissive for no reason. and you seem to accept that 1-indeterminacy in some post, and then just dismiss it as trivial. I accept 1-indeterminacy because as described by you it is identical to the indeterminacy in physics and mathematics that we've known about for a very long time, It might be phenomenologically identical with other indeterminacy, but it has a simpler explanation which does not involve neither QM, nor Gödel or
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 24, 4:32 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 23 Mar 2012, at 00:06, Craig Weinberg wrote: How does a digital artificial intelligence make sense of it's world without converting or sampling every truth about that world available to it into digital? First, the fact that the digital machine converts truth about the world into digital, does not make that world digital. Which world, the one being converted or the one that has been converted? The one being converted. Then yes, of course. I am not claiming that the entire universe becomes digital because I turn a computer on. UDA explains why the contrary occurs, through the first person indeterminacy bearing on a very huge and complex arithmetical reality. Why does hugeness, complexity, first person, or indeterminacy affect whether something is digital or not? Because there is a continuum of computational histories (computations) going through your state in arithmetic, or in the UD. There are histories. OK. Why does that make them digital or not? The rest follows from the 1-indeterminacy and its invariance for the huge delays in the UD virtual reconstitutions. Ask more if this is unclear, but you are supposed to have study the UDA. Yes, I don't really get where 'delays' come from. Does the UDA exist in 'time'? Is time an inevitable epi- of +, *, and n? Still not seeing a connection with whether something is digital or not. Second, the first person impression of the machine might be (and is necessarily, once you accept Theaetetus' insight) a non digitalizable truth, from the machine point of view. Which of Theaetetus' insight do you mean? The definition of knowledge by true belief. Kp = Bp p. I think I know what that is, but since Google shows nothing at all for it, please spell it out for me one more time. To me speculating that a machine has a first person impression is just a way to plug the problem. With the Theaetetus definition, modeling the first person by the knower, and modeling belief by provability (as the incompleteness can justify), the machine has a first person experience. To me all that says is that since knowledge, 'belief', and provability have a relation, then abracadabra: first person experience. It is a theorem, not a speculation. If it is impossible to test the theorem, then what is the difference? Non comp makes the machine into a mechanical variant of a zombie. Non-comp is the atheism of computationalism. it does not make a machine anything, it lets machines be the inanimate puppets that they have always been. It is comp which introduces the expectation of sentience in machines and then balks at the idea of their absence. Since subjectivity doesn't make sense mechanically or digitally, This is what we ask an argument for. You beg the question. I understand, I'm just offering insight into the psychology behind the formulation of the idea of first person machine states. we'll say it's non digital and hang a Mission Accomplished sign. It takes advantage of the privacy and ineffability of subjectivity to misrepresent its absence as possible presence, even though our experience with machines thus far has not supported any presence at all. That is actually the case, because the impression of the machine is a conjunct of both a digitalizable belief and (some) truth, with the greek's suggested notion of knowledge. beliefs, truths, knowledge...these are abstractions to me. Tertiary level commentaries on experience which barely exist. Important, sure, but lacking in any power to initiate direct action. Which is maybe why a machine has no such power. If you negate this, it means that you assume the level to be infinitely low, No, it means I understand that your assumption that description can be quantified is simplistic and inaccurate. Description of my (generalized) brain. With your theory we have zombie. Never zombie, only puppet. Zombie is like calling water 'wet fire'. I don't think so. With the Heisenberg Matrix of the Milky way, no-one would be able to distinguish me or you from the behavior of the entity simulated. If comp is false, those entity who behaves exactly like you or me, are not conscious, and so they are by definition p-zombie. The word zombie privileges the expectation of consciousness, while the word puppet does not. So you beg the question here too. By definiion a zombie has no consciousness, but behaves like a conscious being. A puppet does the same thing. Why not use puppet instead? There must be some reason why you resist this change. The fact that the Heisenberg Matrix of the Milky way fails completely in detecting consciousness I said that we fail to do that. Not the (virtual) Milky Way. It's our virtual Milky Way, so that's the same thing. does not mean that the simulations it takes for genuine are missing something that they
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: From a 3rd POV, there is no indeterminacy, From a 3rd POV there is ALWAYS indeterminacy, we don't know for sure what the thing we're looking at will do. From a 1 POV there is ALWAYS indeterminacy, we don't know for sure what we will do until we do it. Bruno says there is a vast difference between these two things and his entire proof hinges on that, and this despite him conceding that this difference does not involve atoms or information. If someone can clearly explain exactly what is remaining that causes this difference without resorting to mystical BULLSHIT I will concede the argument and publicly thank them for eliminating a small part of my ignorance. you'll (both you) still feel singular, Yes. and the you who was asked before the experience Is now 2 because HE HAS BEEN DUPLICATED. what he expect to feel after the duplication If he is logical he will expect to feel he is in Moscow and Washington, if he is not I can not say what he will predict because there are many ways to be wrong and only one way to be right. was unable to predict which one of the WM guy it will be, yet each one is only one. But each one is you. Your premise is that object X has been exactly duplicated but then you ask what one and only one SINGULAR event will happen to it. The question makes no sense. You keep asking who is this you Yes. it is the usual you, as the one you use in your everyday The word you works fine in the usual everyday world, but when you bring duplicating chambers into the mix concepts that you never needed to give a second thought to become vitally important. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
2012/3/24 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: From a 3rd POV, there is no indeterminacy, From a 3rd POV there is ALWAYS indeterminacy, No in the f***ing though experiment you always want to change as you see fit. we don't know for sure what the thing we're looking at will do. From a 1 POV there is ALWAYS indeterminacy, we don't know for sure what we will do until we do it. Bruno says there is a vast difference between these two things and his entire proof hinges on that, and this despite him conceding that this difference does not involve atoms or information. If someone can clearly explain exactly what is remaining that causes this difference without resorting to mystical BULLSHIT I will concede the argument and publicly thank them for eliminating a small part of my ignorance. you'll (both you) still feel singular, Yes. and the you who was asked before the experience Is now 2 because HE HAS BEEN DUPLICATED. what he expect to feel after the duplication If he is logical he will expect to feel he is in Moscow and Washington, if he is not I can not say what he will predict because there are many ways to be wrong and only one way to be right. was unable to predict which one of the WM guy it will be, yet each one is only one. But each one is you. Your premise is that object X has been exactly duplicated but then you ask what one and only one SINGULAR event will happen to it. The question makes no sense. You keep asking who is this you Yes. it is the usual you, as the one you use in your everyday The word you works fine in the usual everyday world, No, please answer the last part of the message. The everyday world if MWI is true, is a duplicating chamber. but when you bring duplicating chambers into the mix concepts that you never needed to give a second thought to become vitally important. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 24 Mar 2012, at 18:44, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: From a 3rd POV, there is no indeterminacy, From a 3rd POV there is ALWAYS indeterminacy, we don't know for sure what the thing we're looking at will do. From a 1 POV there is ALWAYS indeterminacy, we don't know for sure what we will do until we do it. Bruno says there is a vast difference between these two things and his entire proof hinges on that, and this despite him conceding that this difference does not involve atoms or information. If someone can clearly explain exactly what is remaining that causes this difference without resorting to mystical BULLSHIT I will concede the argument and publicly thank them for eliminating a small part of my ignorance. In the WM experience(s), what causes the first person difference is the first person differentiation, into living in W and living in M. Bruno you'll (both you) still feel singular, Yes. and the you who was asked before the experience Is now 2 because HE HAS BEEN DUPLICATED. what he expect to feel after the duplication If he is logical he will expect to feel he is in Moscow and Washington, if he is not I can not say what he will predict because there are many ways to be wrong and only one way to be right. was unable to predict which one of the WM guy it will be, yet each one is only one. But each one is you. Your premise is that object X has been exactly duplicated but then you ask what one and only one SINGULAR event will happen to it. The question makes no sense. You keep asking who is this you Yes. it is the usual you, as the one you use in your everyday The word you works fine in the usual everyday world, but when you bring duplicating chambers into the mix concepts that you never needed to give a second thought to become vitally important. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/24/2012 12:37 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: You keep asking who is this you Yes. it is the usual you, as the one you use in your everyday The word you works fine in the usual everyday world, No, please answer the last part of the message. The everyday world if MWI is true, is a duplicating chamber. Yes, and I think Bruno's argument is to show that if consciousness is a kind of computation then diverging computations would produce the same kind of uncertainty that QM does in the MW interpretation. However, that doesn't /solve/ the problem it just makes two problems the same. In Everett's MWI there is a problem saying what probabilities mean, which is just the same as the one in the transporter thought experiment(c.f. arXiv:0905.0624v1 by Ardian Kent). Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 22 Mar 2012, at 21:31, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: This illustrates the problem I have with your ideas, it's not your mathematics it's the assumption you make right at the start which is the foundation for everything else. Which assumption? Your assumption that if a identical copy of you is made everything may seen identical to a third party but to itself, to the copy and the original, they would somehow have different viewpoints even if everything they saw was the same and they remained identical. I don't make that assumption. I think that is just plain wrong. Like Brent told you, I agree with you. Lately you seem to be equivocating somewhat on this point and everybody has a right to change their mind, but if you do then you'll have to rewrite your proof from page 1 because that assumption was important. I never made that assumption. It is in your imagination. You really look like you want to see something invalid in the reasoning, and then you imagine assertion which does not exist (or show me where). Those admit precise and simple definition, related to the duplication and multiplication thought experience. First person = content of a diary bring in the duplication devices. OK, but the original and the copy will both write in their diaries I walked into the duplicating chamber, the machine was turned on and a copy of me appeared right in front of me face to face, You are still avoiding the WM duplication. You cannot invalidate an argument by changing the premise. the copy and the original agree on what occurred, so according to you the first person perspective, the one that both you and I believe is most important, is identical; so there is only one perspective, one consciousness. Sure. This does not invalidate the point I am making. It does not address the point at all. Third person = content of a diary of an external observers. OK, but the third person observer will write in his diary the original walked into the duplicating chamber, the machine was turned on and a copy of him appeared right in front of him face to face, the third person agrees on what happened with the first person, he agrees with both the copy and the original. Please come back to the reasoning. First person plural = content of the diaries of a collection of person duplicated together. I don't see the point of this one because according to you (and me too) if the viewpoint is identical then the consciousness of all of them is identical, so the word plural serves no purpose and just creates confusion. Come back to the reasoning. but you can't give a scrap of evidence that such differences actually exist, Just look at the content of the diaries. I did, if they say the same thing then their consciousness is identical from their viewpoint and my viewpoint and your viewpoint and the Easter Bunny's viewpoint and ANY viewpoint; and if the diaries are different then they are different people from ANY viewpoint. Come back to the reasoning. In the thought experiment I am using, the content of the diaries are equal up to some pages, and then they diverge. The experiencer tries to predict which branch they will live. It contains statements like I predict that I will feel to be in W or in M, I am in M, so I win, pr I predict that I will see Flying circus, but I see nothing recognizable, so I fail, etc. If the purpose of all this predict stuff is to find a clear continuous path that establishes what is meant by I You come back again on this !?! No, the point is not to establish what is meant by I. David, Quentin and others (including myself) have already explain this to you. You continue to avoid the points. Follow the reasoning and you will see the purpose. then it's like pushing on a string, you're doing it backwards, you've got to do it from the present to the past not from the present to the future. Looking back the Washington man remembers being the Helsinki man so they both are part of the same I, and the Moscow man remembers being the Helsinki man so they both are part of the same I, but the Moscow man does not remember being the Washington man so they are not part of the same I. Which is part of the explanation of the first person indeterminacy. Good. If the guy annihilated die, then he would say that P(M) = P(W) = 1/2, and there would be no 1-indeterminacy. Of course here I made a typo mistake (which you missed). Read P(W) = P(M) = 0, in case the guy dies. But as we both agree on comp, the guy does not die in that process. First of all you seem to make a distinction between dying and being annihilated that I do not understand, and second, if either of those things had happened to you you wouldn't be making any predictions, you wouldn't be saying anything at all. Like Brent said,
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 23, 1:08 am, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/22/2012 9:49 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 8:28 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/22/2012 4:24 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 6:09 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/22/2012 2:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 4:58 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: Then you agree with me: AI cannot make sense out of its world without converting or sampling it digitally. That which it fails to digitize is lost. Sure. What you don't see you don't see - which is almost all of the EM spectrum. Of course Bruno's theory is that it's all digital, but we're within the digits and cannot capture more than a measure zero. Yes, human beings can't detect everything either, but my point was that we know for certain that everything in an AI's world has to be modeled digitally, therefore a digital brain creates a digital world within it. I'm not sure that's so. All of our physical models of the world are based on continua. Continua can be described and reasoned about by a digital system and continuous models can be computed to arbitrarily high precision (which is what we actually do in science and engineering). That's because the world that they are modeling is actually not digital, Unsupported assertion. If the world is digital already, then why would you need to model it? Does a digital computer need a continua to open a digital file? but the model itself still is. No. So far as I know, no one has come up with a digital model of physics that isn't empirically falsified - and it isn't for want of trying. All the models are continuous and based on real numbers. It is just that all the calculations and measurements are digital, i.e. based on integers. That's what I'm saying. A model = calculations and measurements. That's what I mean by the modelling itself. If I write a book about physics, the book can be written in English but not speculating that physics itself is an English phenomenon. If there is a machine intelligence in there, we know that it must live in the world that we give it to sample digitally, whether or not it can produce output which we interpret non-digitally. It's back to symbol grounding again. What difference does it make to symbolic grounding whether the symbol refers to a continuum or an integer field? I never said that those were the two choices, you are the one who introduced continuity. Both analog and digital are methods of abstracting. I'm not talking about one kind of model versus another, I'm talking about concrete presentation versus abstract representation. My position is that our experience in the world is no model at all (although modeling is certainly part of it). Our experience is not a total experience of THE universe, but it is a total experience of OUR world (perceptual inertial framework), which includes the understanding that there is a difference and the tools to actually extend our world further into rest of the universe. The machine's world is not similarly open to expansion. It does not have the tools to extend its sense. You could connect a camera to Deep Blue through a printer port in it would never in a trillion years figure out how to use it. I have a digital CD playing on a digital receiver. The acoustic drivers are digital too. The music is not digital. Another unsupported assertion. How would you know? If music were digital you wouldn't need to hear it. You could look at a picture of the data and get the same experience. Some people claimed that digital audio sounded different - but double blind tests showed they were mistaken. That may be true, and that's not what I was talking about, but also I don't think that any kind of objective test like that prove that anyone is 'mistaken' about how something feels. It may be that doing a double blind test creates a placebo effect when subjectivity is being tested. And it might be you're blowing smoke because you don't like the facts. Possible, but it's also because in my understanding, subjectivity works in exactly that way. Just as the double slit test does unexpected things to light, we cannot assume that our subtle awareness can be manipulated on demand. That assumption itself is a cognitive bias which may very well contaminate the data. It seems to me that digital audio is colder, clearer, with more brittle and shallow percussion and more sibilance than analog. It's hard to say because I'm not comparing apples to apples, but I'm not sure that the experiment you are talking about did either. I don't know what assumptions they made. Also why does everyone seem to make the same exact mistake about how digital sounds to them? Why no people who insist that digital is more expressive and poetic? The CD, the receiver,
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
From a 3rd POV, there is no indeterminacy, we know there will be two you after the duplication. From your 1st POV, even if you know it, you'll (both you) still feel singular, and the you who was asked before the experience what he expect to feel after the duplication was unable to predict which one of the WM guy it will be, yet each one is only one. If MWI is true, that happens every time the you/environment differentiates. So while you insist it is gibberish to ask the guy before the experience what he will feel, then in that condition every time you ask a question about a future event about yourself, it is gibberish. You keep asking who is this you... it is the usual you, as the one you use in your everyday gibberish question about yourself if MWI is true. (youhou \o/) Quentin 2012/3/23 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You are still avoiding the WM duplication. There is no spliting in Many Worlds unless something is different, if 2 universes are identical then they have merged and there is now only one universe. the copy and the original agree on what occurred, so according to you the first person perspective, the one that both you and I believe is most important, is identical; so there is only one perspective, one consciousness. Sure. This does not invalidate the point I am making. It does not address the point at all. Then what the hell IS the point you are making? Please come back to the reasoning. [...] Come back to the reasoning. [...] Come back to the reasoning. Is that the best retort you could come up with? Show me some reasoning and I'll come back to it. In the thought experiment I am using, the content of the diaries are equal up to some pages, and then they diverge. And when the diaries diverge the person will too and become 2, both are the original person and neither is each other. The experiencer tries to predict which branch they will live. If the experiencer believes that when something is duplicated it remains singular then any prediction made regarding it will be gibberish. You continue to avoid the points. It's rather easy to avoid your points as you have NOT mentioned a single one, you just tell me to follow these wonderful but phantom points. Follow the reasoning and you will see the purpose. Dear god we're back to that again! First of all you seem to make a distinction between dying and being annihilated that I do not understand, and second, if either of those things had happened to you you wouldn't be making any predictions, you wouldn't be saying anything at all. Like Brent said, the difference is between annihilation and no reconstitution (= dying), and annihilation + reconstitution (= teleportation, or duplication, etc.). The fact of the matter is that the Bruno Marchal of noon yesterday has not been duplicated or teleported or reconstituted, the Bruno Marchal of right now remembers being him but he is different and has memories that other version did not have; so if you insist that the Helsinki man is dead then to be consistent you must say that Bruno Marchal of noon yesterday is dead, and if you insist that the Helsinki man has been annihilated then to be consistent you must say that Bruno Marchal of noon yesterday has been annihilated. Are you certain you really want to do this? Please, answer my post of the 19 mars, I don't know what 19 mars is and I thought I'd responded to all your posts but if I missed one where you made everything clear (I'm not holding my breath) then please resend it. Things are rather simple. Yes, but not simple in a good way. You pretend that there is no 1-indeterminacy. I insist that indeterminacy exists in every one of the many thought experiments proposed by members of this list during the last month, but you pretend to have discovered a brand new form of it never known before. I see no evidence you have done anything of the sort. Then you have to explain to us how you predict the movie that you will remember having seen when the movie-multiplication experience is completed. Bruno Marchal has asked this many times but despite many requests for clarification of who you is such a explanation, that would establish a new sort indeterminacy, has not been received. and you seem to accept that 1-indeterminacy in some post, and then just dismiss it as trivial. I accept 1-indeterminacy because as described by you it is identical to the indeterminacy in physics and mathematics that we've known about for a very long time, and I dismiss it as trivial for exactly the same reason. I want something new. Are you under influence? Yes, of logic. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/23/2012 3:44 PM, Joseph Knight wrote: On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 6:40 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 3/21/2012 8:16 PM, Joseph Knight wrote: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: Dear Joseph, How do numbers implement that necessary capacity to define each other and themselves? What kind of relational structure is necessary? From what I can tell, it looks like a net of Indra where every jewel, here a number, reflects all others. This is a non-well founded structure. You'll have to be more explicit than this if I am to make any sense of it. Dear Joseph, I first must say that I appreciate very much this exchange as it forces me to better refine my wordings and explanations. In the passage above I was trying to get at something that I see in the implied structure of numbers, given Bruno's amazing ideas. Remember, I think in pictures, so the relations between numbers - with their Goedelizations and Loeb references - is to me a network where any one entity - here an integer - is defined by and related to all others. It looks like the structure of an infinite Webster Dictionary! What I also see is that the links are not of a constant length - some connections between numbers are tiny - like the link between prime pairs - while others are infinitely long. What I am trying to point out is that this structure, is very much_unlike_ the structure that we think of when we just consider the number line where such a line is made up only of integers - 0, 1, 2, 3, ... This is all nice, but I can't understand it unless you give make this more formal/precise. Do you only think in words? I'm just curious... I will try harder to sketch the idea in words for you. Think of how Goedelizations and Goedel numbers work as a visual picture, perhaps as a poitrait by Matisse or Dali. We have a string of numbers that represents another set of numbers *and* some arithmetic operation on those numbers. Any such Goedel number is thus the equivalent to a handle on the space of numbers (which is, by definition, a one dimensional manifold http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve#Topology, also see 1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evenly_spaced_integer_topology and 2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_sets#Topological_spaces), therefore if it is possible to have an infinity of goedel numbers in the integers then the resulting manifold would an infinity of handles (disjoint manifolds) on it. How many unique paths would exist on such a manifold? What is the average length of a path? (Please recall the fact that a handle can have any size iff it is simply connected and analytic) There is no such an average for the only faithful sample of the set of possible lengths of paths is the set itself (infinite sets are isomorphic to any of their proper subsets). Remember that we can also have goedel numbers operating on (mapping into) dovetailed strings of goedel numbers and goedel numbers can have arbitrarily long number string lengths.. This makes the dimension of this manifold to be infinite because of the disjointness of the handles that are induced by the Goedelizing, thus making it (modulo the requirements of spaces to exist) an infinite space. It is only if the requirements of a space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_%28mathematics%29 not being met that this would not occur. Given that a geodelization introduces arithmetic into the set of numbers then is automatically qualifies a goedelized number line to be the dual of a space (via the Stone representation theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_representation_theorem). QED. The visual mode and the symbol mode of languages seem to have a strange conjugacy Numbers as Bruno is considering them, I contend, has a structure that mathematicians denote as non-well founded in the sense that there is no basic building block out of which this structure is constructed unless we force it into a very tight straight jacket. One example of just a constraint occurs when we think of numbers as von Neumann numerals http://bmanolov.free.fr/von-neumann-integer.php or something like: s, s(), s(()), s((())), ... - where s is the null set which we can define in terms of Spencer-Brown's laws of form as the Double Cross (see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Laws_of_Form_-_double_cross.gif), my point being that we only obtain a 'well-founded' version when we impose a constraint of the natural' structure. Well, of course. To talk about well-foundedness you need a class and a relation, not just a class. It doesn't make sense to say numbers are non-wellfounded. They are non-well founded if they are
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: How does a digital artificial intelligence make sense of it's world Superbly! A digital AI can make sense of it's world far better than you can; if you doubt that statement just try competing against even a modest chess playing computer. without converting or sampling every truth about that world available to it into digital? It does convert much of its world to digital, if its world is large it may not be able to convert all of it with the result that it won't be able to make sense of all of it, but it will understand more of it than you do as can be proven with real world testing. Undoubtedly you will say that just because the machine beat the pants off you doesn't mean it understands the material better than you do, and you may have told your professor that just because you got a F on the final exam doesn't mean you didn't understand the material better than the professor did, but I think you will find that both remarks are equally convincing. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 22 Mar 2012, at 03:00, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 21, 3:23 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 21 Mar 2012, at 17:40, Craig Weinberg wrote (partially). It's not just 'we' but our entire participation in the world that is assumed to be digitally interchangeable. A digitizable body can only exist within a digitizable universe. False. The exact contrary has been proved. How has it been proved? How can we be ourselves without a world to exist in? Sure. What has been proved is that if comp is true we can only be in a non digitizable world. Digital physics is non sense, except as tool for building approximate theory. Comp is not digital physics. How does a digital artificial intelligence make sense of it's world without converting or sampling every truth about that world available to it into digital? First, the fact that the digital machine converts truth about the world into digital, does not make that world digital. UDA explains why the contrary occurs, through the first person indeterminacy bearing on a very huge and complex arithmetical reality. Second, the first person impression of the machine might be (and is necessarily, once you accept Theaetetus' insight) a non digitalizable truth, from the machine point of view. That is actually the case, because the impression of the machine is a conjunct of both a digitalizable belief and (some) truth, with the greek's suggested notion of knowledge. If you negate this, it means that you assume the level to be infinitely low, No, it means I understand that your assumption that description can be quantified is simplistic and inaccurate. Description of my (generalized) brain. With your theory we have zombie. Never zombie, only puppet. Zombie is like calling water 'wet fire'. I don't think so. With the Heisenberg Matrix of the Milky way, no-one would be able to distinguish me or you from the behavior of the entity simulated. If comp is false, those entity who behaves exactly like you or me, are not conscious, and so they are by definition p-zombie. Study the sane04 paper. Or search in the archive. It is a consequence of comp that physics emerge from the way numbers can bet on arithmetical relations. It is not entirely obvious. I don't have a problem with physics emerging from comp, I have a problem with consciousness emerging from either one. I understand. This is related with the fact that we can explain why consciousness is not entirely explainable by the machine. The machine also find hard to believe that consciousness emerge from arithmetical truth. But she cannot accept this because she can understand the necessary transcendent aspect of any notion of truth encompassing the truth about herself. What might help you is the idea that with comp, contrary to the (contradictory) belief that consciousness is a natural product of some physical activity, consciousness is an atemporal global feature of the arithmetical truth. Machine does not produce consciousness, they borrow it to the truth. With comp, there is a sense to say that only God is conscious, but to manifest itself relatively to machines, he has to be amnesic to who he is. Nature invented the brain, not to make machines conscious, but to make them amnesic to their true identity. If not, the prey would not mind escaping the predator, and life could not evolve. They don't need to dream. But they can (trivially with comp that I assume all the time). Physics appears because deep linear dreams are shared by relatively persistent universal numbers. Couldn't physics still theoretically appear without anything dreaming anything? Isn't that the point of physics, to explain the world as a structured relation which makes sense entirely in physical terms? That's is very natural to believe. Somehow we are programmed to believe this. But it is false in the comp theory, as the UDA explains, and as most mystics seems to grasp from introspection. Note that this makes also possible to explain the physical in a non circular way, that is without assuming the physical. This is counter-intuitive, and has to be counter-intuitive. We are not programmed to believe this, quite the contrary, as suggested by the above remark. and if we have dreams we don't need numbers. ? If our lives are being dreamed by Platonic universal principles, why do we want to turn them into dust by seeking out the dreamers? Because we are curious. In Comp that can make sense that we would be curious about what can only reveal our own lives meaningless data. In a sense realism, we are only likely to be curious because on some level we already know that comp is just another new dimension of meaning to explore and create in. We know, on some level, that we don't really have to worry about computers coming to life or developing feelings. There is nothing to worry indeed. About machines coming to
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: This illustrates the problem I have with your ideas, it's not your mathematics it's the assumption you make right at the start which is the foundation for everything else. Which assumption? Your assumption that if a identical copy of you is made everything may seen identical to a third party but to itself, to the copy and the original, they would somehow have different viewpoints even if everything they saw was the same and they remained identical. I think that is just plain wrong. Lately you seem to be equivocating somewhat on this point and everybody has a right to change their mind, but if you do then you'll have to rewrite your proof from page 1 because that assumption was important. Those admit precise and simple definition, related to the duplication and multiplication thought experience. First person = content of a diary bring in the duplication devices. OK, but the original and the copy will both write in their diaries I walked into the duplicating chamber, the machine was turned on and a copy of me appeared right in front of me face to face, the copy and the original agree on what occurred, so according to you the first person perspective, the one that both you and I believe is most important, is identical; so there is only one perspective, one consciousness. Third person = content of a diary of an external observers. OK, but the third person observer will write in his diary the original walked into the duplicating chamber, the machine was turned on and a copy of him appeared right in front of him face to face, the third person agrees on what happened with the first person, he agrees with both the copy and the original. First person plural = content of the diaries of a collection of person duplicated together. I don't see the point of this one because according to you (and me too) if the viewpoint is identical then the consciousness of all of them is identical, so the word plural serves no purpose and just creates confusion. but you can't give a scrap of evidence that such differences actually exist, Just look at the content of the diaries. I did, if they say the same thing then their consciousness is identical from their viewpoint and my viewpoint and your viewpoint and the Easter Bunny's viewpoint and ANY viewpoint; and if the diaries are different then they are different people from ANY viewpoint. It contains statements like I predict that I will feel to be in W or in M, I am in M, so I win, pr I predict that I will see Flying circus, but I see nothing recognizable, so I fail, etc. If the purpose of all this predict stuff is to find a clear continuous path that establishes what is meant by I then it's like pushing on a string, you're doing it backwards, you've got to do it from the present to the past not from the present to the future. Looking back the Washington man remembers being the Helsinki man so they both are part of the same I, and the Moscow man remembers being the Helsinki man so they both are part of the same I, but the Moscow man does not remember being the Washington man so they are not part of the same I. I have no real clue what you are talking about. I could be wrong but I have a hunch you do have a clue what I'm talking about but you're trying to convince yourself that you do not. If the guy annihilated die, then he would say that P(M) = P(W) = 1/2, and there would be no 1-indeterminacy. First of all you seem to make a distinction between dying and being annihilated that I do not understand, and second, if either of those things had happened to you you wouldn't be making any predictions, you wouldn't be saying anything at all. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/22/2012 1:31 PM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: This illustrates the problem I have with your ideas, it's not your mathematics it's the assumption you make right at the start which is the foundation for everything else. Which assumption? Your assumption that if a identical copy of you is made everything may seen identical to a third party but to itself, to the copy and the original, they would somehow have different viewpoints even if everything they saw was the same and they remained identical. I think that is just plain wrong. Lately you seem to be equivocating somewhat on this point and everybody has a right to change their mind, but if you do then you'll have to rewrite your proof from page 1 because that assumption was important. Those admit precise and simple definition, related to the duplication and multiplication thought experience. First person = content of a diary bring in the duplication devices. OK, but the original and the copy will both write in their diaries I walked into the duplicating chamber, the machine was turned on and a copy of me appeared right in front of me face to face, the copy and the original agree on what occurred, so according to you the first person perspective, the one that both you and I believe is most important, is identical; so there is only one perspective, one consciousness. I don't think Bruno disagreed with this. I know I didn't. The one consciousness only becomes two when there is something different - in the perception of the outside (Washington vs Moscow) or some random internal change. Your thought experiment shows that comp implies that persons bodies can be duplicated without duplicating their consciousness (at least for a moment or two). But as I said I don't see that this invalidates Bruno's argument which I take to be that quantum uncertainty can be modeled by uncertainty in personal identity. Third person = content of a diary of an external observers. OK, but the third person observer will write in his diary the original walked into the duplicating chamber, the machine was turned on and a copy of him appeared right in front of him face to face, the third person agrees on what happened with the first person, he agrees with both the copy and the original. First person plural = content of the diaries of a collection of person duplicated together. I don't see the point of this one because according to you (and me too) if the viewpoint is identical then the consciousness of all of them is identical, so the word plural serves no purpose and just creates confusion. but you can't give a scrap of evidence that such differences actually exist, Just look at the content of the diaries. I did, if they say the same thing then their consciousness is identical from their viewpoint and my viewpoint and your viewpoint and the Easter Bunny's viewpoint and ANY viewpoint; and if the diaries are different then they are different people from ANY viewpoint. But they are not different people from Everett's relative state viewpoint. In that view they are the same person who has just made different observations. I agree that is just a semantic difference about what it means to 'be the same person'. But so far as modeling quantum uncertainty one could as well say observing a quantum event produces a different person and the John C. Clark who's reading this is just one of many different John C. Clarks who happens to share my macroscopic world for the time being. It contains statements like I predict that I will feel to be in W or in M, I am in M, so I win, pr I predict that I will see Flying circus, but I see nothing recognizable, so I fail, etc. If the purpose of all this predict stuff is to find a clear continuous path that establishes what is meant by I then it's like pushing on a string, you're doing it backwards, you've got to do it from the present to the past not from the present to the future. Looking back the Washington man remembers being the Helsinki man so they both are part of the same I, and the Moscow man remembers being the Helsinki man so they both are part of the same I, but the Moscow man does not remember being the Washington man so they are not part of the same I. I have no real clue what you are talking about. I could be wrong but I have a hunch you do have a clue what I'm talking about but you're trying to convince yourself that you do not. If the guy annihilated die, then he would say that P(M) = P(W) = 1/2, and there would be no 1-indeterminacy. First of all you seem to make a distinction between dying and being annihilated that I do not understand, and second, if either of those things had happened to you you wouldn't be making any predictions, you wouldn't be saying anything at all. Not
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 22, 10:46 am, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: How does a digital artificial intelligence make sense of it's world Superbly! A digital AI can make sense of it's world far better than you can; if you doubt that statement just try competing against even a modest chess playing computer. My question was not 'How can AI make sense of its world?' but 'How can AI make sense of its world without converting or sampling digitally?' without converting or sampling every truth about that world available to it into digital? It does convert much of its world to digital, if its world is large it may not be able to convert all of it with the result that it won't be able to make sense of all of it, Then you agree with me: AI cannot make sense out of its world without converting or sampling it digitally. That which it fails to digitize is lost. but it will understand more of it than you do as can be proven with real world testing. Undoubtedly you will say that just because the machine beat the pants off you doesn't mean it understands the material better than you do, I'm not sure why you keep making this point with me over and over again. By your reasoning, 'beating' someone at some task equals intelligence in general, so that if an electric can opener opens a can faster than Einstein does, the can opener is smarter than Einstein. and you may have told your professor that just because you got a F on the final exam doesn't mean you didn't understand the material better than the professor did, but I think you will find that both remarks are equally convincing. When you figure out why opening a can doesn't make you a genius, then you should be able to apply the same logic to understand why a machine winning at a mathematical game like chess doesn't make it intelligent. Neither does a color copier which can forge great paintings in a matter of seconds make it a great artist. Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/22/2012 1:49 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 10:46 am, John Clarkjohnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.comwrote: How does a digital artificial intelligence make sense of it's world Superbly! A digital AI can make sense of it's world far better than you can; if you doubt that statement just try competing against even a modest chess playing computer. My question was not 'How can AI make sense of its world?' but 'How can AI make sense of its world without converting or sampling digitally?' without converting or sampling every truth about that world available to it into digital? It does convert much of its world to digital, if its world is large it may not be able to convert all of it with the result that it won't be able to make sense of all of it, Then you agree with me: AI cannot make sense out of its world without converting or sampling it digitally. That which it fails to digitize is lost. Sure. What you don't see you don't see - which is almost all of the EM spectrum. Of course Bruno's theory is that it's all digital, but we're within the digits and cannot capture more than a measure zero. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 22, 4:58 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Then you agree with me: AI cannot make sense out of its world without converting or sampling it digitally. That which it fails to digitize is lost. Sure. What you don't see you don't see - which is almost all of the EM spectrum. Of course Bruno's theory is that it's all digital, but we're within the digits and cannot capture more than a measure zero. Yes, human beings can't detect everything either, but my point was that we know for certain that everything in an AI's world has to be modeled digitally, therefore a digital brain creates a digital world within it. Just because our ability to sense the world is not unlimited doesn't mean that our sense is digital or a model. Our experience of the world may not be a model at all, but a direct presentation at the anthropomorphic level (which includes, but is not limited to a mixture of lower level analog and digital representations). Even if our own world were nothing but a digital simulation, the experience of it is not digital, which wouldn't make sense in a digital world. Why create a floridly rich abstraction layer of sense experience if you already have the data you need to function optimally, or, if you have the sense experience already, why would you need any digital data to function? Your comment brings up another related point. As you say, we only see a small sliver of the EM spectrum. What that means is that we (figuratively) 'see' that we don't literally 'see' all that there is. We can make inferences that extend beyond the literal capacities of our direct sensation. Can machines do that? Can machines figure out that they lack emotion on their own? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/22/2012 2:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 4:58 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: Then you agree with me: AI cannot make sense out of its world without converting or sampling it digitally. That which it fails to digitize is lost. Sure. What you don't see you don't see - which is almost all of the EM spectrum. Of course Bruno's theory is that it's all digital, but we're within the digits and cannot capture more than a measure zero. Yes, human beings can't detect everything either, but my point was that we know for certain that everything in an AI's world has to be modeled digitally, therefore a digital brain creates a digital world within it. I'm not sure that's so. All of our physical models of the world are based on continua. Continua can be described and reasoned about by a digital system and continuous models can be computed to arbitrarily high precision (which is what we actually do in science and engineering). Just because our ability to sense the world is not unlimited doesn't mean that our sense is digital or a model. Our experience of the world may not be a model at all, but a direct presentation at the anthropomorphic level (which includes, but is not limited to a mixture of lower level analog and digital representations). Even if our own world were nothing but a digital simulation, the experience of it is not digital, You don't know that. How would continua experience differ from digital experience? which wouldn't make sense in a digital world. Why create Are you asking why God did something? a floridly rich abstraction layer of sense experience if you already have the data you need to function optimally, or, if you have the sense experience already, why would you need any digital data to function? Your comment brings up another related point. As you say, we only see a small sliver of the EM spectrum. What that means is that we (figuratively) 'see' that we don't literally 'see' all that there is. We can make inferences that extend beyond the literal capacities of our direct sensation. Can machines do that? Sure. Machines have extended sensory ability so, for example, they can navigate by GPS signals which we can't even detect. Similarly, migratory birds can navigate by sensing the Earth's magnetic field - something we do via prosthetics like compasses. Can machines figure out that they lack emotion on their own? If they were sufficiently intelligent. Are there emotions that you have figured out you lack, e.g. mother love? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 22, 11:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 22 Mar 2012, at 03:00, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 21, 3:23 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 21 Mar 2012, at 17:40, Craig Weinberg wrote (partially). It's not just 'we' but our entire participation in the world that is assumed to be digitally interchangeable. A digitizable body can only exist within a digitizable universe. False. The exact contrary has been proved. How has it been proved? How can we be ourselves without a world to exist in? Sure. What has been proved is that if comp is true we can only be in a non digitizable world. Digital physics is non sense, except as tool for building approximate theory. Comp is not digital physics. How does a digital artificial intelligence make sense of it's world without converting or sampling every truth about that world available to it into digital? First, the fact that the digital machine converts truth about the world into digital, does not make that world digital. Which world, the one being converted or the one that has been converted? UDA explains why the contrary occurs, through the first person indeterminacy bearing on a very huge and complex arithmetical reality. Why does hugeness, complexity, first person, or indeterminacy affect whether something is digital or not? Second, the first person impression of the machine might be (and is necessarily, once you accept Theaetetus' insight) a non digitalizable truth, from the machine point of view. Which of Theaetetus' insight do you mean? To me speculating that a machine has a first person impression is just a way to plug the problem. Since subjectivity doesn't make sense mechanically or digitally, we'll say it's non digital and hang a Mission Accomplished sign. It takes advantage of the privacy and ineffability of subjectivity to misrepresent its absence as possible presence, even though our experience with machines thus far has not supported any presence at all. That is actually the case, because the impression of the machine is a conjunct of both a digitalizable belief and (some) truth, with the greek's suggested notion of knowledge. beliefs, truths, knowledge...these are abstractions to me. Tertiary level commentaries on experience which barely exist. Important, sure, but lacking in any power to initiate direct action. Which is maybe why a machine has no such power. If you negate this, it means that you assume the level to be infinitely low, No, it means I understand that your assumption that description can be quantified is simplistic and inaccurate. Description of my (generalized) brain. With your theory we have zombie. Never zombie, only puppet. Zombie is like calling water 'wet fire'. I don't think so. With the Heisenberg Matrix of the Milky way, no-one would be able to distinguish me or you from the behavior of the entity simulated. If comp is false, those entity who behaves exactly like you or me, are not conscious, and so they are by definition p-zombie. The word zombie privileges the expectation of consciousness, while the word puppet does not. The fact that the Heisenberg Matrix of the Milky way fails completely in detecting consciousness does not mean that the simulations it takes for genuine are missing something that they should have. That they are simulations in the first place means that we intend them to resemble something that they are not. I make a witch's head out of a shrunken apple - that is a simulation of a witch; a puppet of a witch. It isn't an actual witch that has been rendered a zombie. It freaks me out that I keep having to explain this, it seems stunningly obvious to me. I draw a dog on a paper bag, is it now a dog zombie? The deeper insight here of course is that simulation relates only to the intended audience. It looks like a witch or a dog only to us. It's a text. It's symbols are not grounded in the firmament of the cosmos like matter or biology, they are only suggestions that help 'us' fabricate a fictional association for ourselves. Study the sane04 paper. Or search in the archive. It is a consequence of comp that physics emerge from the way numbers can bet on arithmetical relations. It is not entirely obvious. I don't have a problem with physics emerging from comp, I have a problem with consciousness emerging from either one. I understand. This is related with the fact that we can explain why consciousness is not entirely explainable by the machine. The machine also find hard to believe that consciousness emerge from arithmetical truth. But she cannot accept this because she can understand the necessary transcendent aspect of any notion of truth encompassing the truth about herself. It sounds like you mean that machines can tell what is true about themselves so they can't accept that there is an external source of all truth. That makes a little sense, but I have no problem
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 22, 6:09 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/22/2012 2:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 4:58 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: Then you agree with me: AI cannot make sense out of its world without converting or sampling it digitally. That which it fails to digitize is lost. Sure. What you don't see you don't see - which is almost all of the EM spectrum. Of course Bruno's theory is that it's all digital, but we're within the digits and cannot capture more than a measure zero. Yes, human beings can't detect everything either, but my point was that we know for certain that everything in an AI's world has to be modeled digitally, therefore a digital brain creates a digital world within it. I'm not sure that's so. All of our physical models of the world are based on continua. Continua can be described and reasoned about by a digital system and continuous models can be computed to arbitrarily high precision (which is what we actually do in science and engineering). That's because the world that they are modeling is actually not digital, but the model itself still is. If there is a machine intelligence in there, we know that it must live in the world that we give it to sample digitally, whether or not it can produce output which we interpret non-digitally. It's back to symbol grounding again. I have a digital CD playing on a digital receiver. The acoustic drivers are digital too. The music is not digital. The CD, the receiver, and the speakers cannot hear the music. We can safely reason that they probably do not hear the music, yes? We can assume though that they must sample the CD digitally though. That we know for a fact. That's all we know for a fact. If the same were true of us, we would have no real reason to listen to a sequence of digital codes, but if we did there would be no reason for it to sound like anything other than a sequence of digital codes. It should sound just like it tastes. Just because our ability to sense the world is not unlimited doesn't mean that our sense is digital or a model. Our experience of the world may not be a model at all, but a direct presentation at the anthropomorphic level (which includes, but is not limited to a mixture of lower level analog and digital representations). Even if our own world were nothing but a digital simulation, the experience of it is not digital, You don't know that. How would continua experience differ from digital experience? It's not about being able to tell the difference, it's the fact that there is any sensory experience at all. Any kind of sensory experience is redundant if you have a digital information transfer. It would be functionally useless and physically implausible to the extreme. which wouldn't make sense in a digital world. Why create Are you asking why God did something? God, Chief Engineer, evolution, logic, whatever. Why does it make sense that sense exists if you don't functionally need it? a floridly rich abstraction layer of sense experience if you already have the data you need to function optimally, or, if you have the sense experience already, why would you need any digital data to function? Your comment brings up another related point. As you say, we only see a small sliver of the EM spectrum. What that means is that we (figuratively) 'see' that we don't literally 'see' all that there is. We can make inferences that extend beyond the literal capacities of our direct sensation. Can machines do that? Sure. Machines have extended sensory ability so, for example, they can navigate by GPS signals which we can't even detect. Ugh. Not extended beyond *our* sensory abiility... extended beyond *their own* sensory ability. We can't see gamma rays, but we figured out that they (sort of) exist. Do Geiger counters ever figure out that they are missing the visible spectrum? Similarly, migratory birds can navigate by sensing the Earth's magnetic field - something we do via prosthetics like compasses. Yes. I know. Can machines figure out that they lack emotion on their own? If they were sufficiently intelligent. That is the assumption I'm challenging. Are there emotions that you have figured out you lack, e.g. mother love? Of course. Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 22, 8:28 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/22/2012 4:24 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 6:09 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/22/2012 2:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 4:58 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: Then you agree with me: AI cannot make sense out of its world without converting or sampling it digitally. That which it fails to digitize is lost. Sure. What you don't see you don't see - which is almost all of the EM spectrum. Of course Bruno's theory is that it's all digital, but we're within the digits and cannot capture more than a measure zero. Yes, human beings can't detect everything either, but my point was that we know for certain that everything in an AI's world has to be modeled digitally, therefore a digital brain creates a digital world within it. I'm not sure that's so. All of our physical models of the world are based on continua. Continua can be described and reasoned about by a digital system and continuous models can be computed to arbitrarily high precision (which is what we actually do in science and engineering). That's because the world that they are modeling is actually not digital, Unsupported assertion. If the world is digital already, then why would you need to model it? Does a digital computer need a continua to open a digital file? but the model itself still is. No. So far as I know, no one has come up with a digital model of physics that isn't empirically falsified - and it isn't for want of trying. All the models are continuous and based on real numbers. It is just that all the calculations and measurements are digital, i.e. based on integers. That's what I'm saying. A model = calculations and measurements. That's what I mean by the modelling itself. If I write a book about physics, the book can be written in English but not speculating that physics itself is an English phenomenon. If there is a machine intelligence in there, we know that it must live in the world that we give it to sample digitally, whether or not it can produce output which we interpret non-digitally. It's back to symbol grounding again. What difference does it make to symbolic grounding whether the symbol refers to a continuum or an integer field? I never said that those were the two choices, you are the one who introduced continuity. Both analog and digital are methods of abstracting. I'm not talking about one kind of model versus another, I'm talking about concrete presentation versus abstract representation. My position is that our experience in the world is no model at all (although modeling is certainly part of it). Our experience is not a total experience of THE universe, but it is a total experience of OUR world (perceptual inertial framework), which includes the understanding that there is a difference and the tools to actually extend our world further into rest of the universe. The machine's world is not similarly open to expansion. It does not have the tools to extend its sense. You could connect a camera to Deep Blue through a printer port in it would never in a trillion years figure out how to use it. I have a digital CD playing on a digital receiver. The acoustic drivers are digital too. The music is not digital. Another unsupported assertion. How would you know? If music were digital you wouldn't need to hear it. You could look at a picture of the data and get the same experience. Some people claimed that digital audio sounded different - but double blind tests showed they were mistaken. That may be true, and that's not what I was talking about, but also I don't think that any kind of objective test like that prove that anyone is 'mistaken' about how something feels. It may be that doing a double blind test creates a placebo effect when subjectivity is being tested. Just as the double slit test does unexpected things to light, we cannot assume that our subtle awareness can be manipulated on demand. That assumption itself is a cognitive bias which may very well contaminate the data. It seems to me that digital audio is colder, clearer, with more brittle and shallow percussion and more sibilance than analog. It's hard to say because I'm not comparing apples to apples, but I'm not sure that the experiment you are talking about did either. I don't know what assumptions they made. Also why does everyone seem to make the same exact mistake about how digital sounds to them? Why no people who insist that digital is more expressive and poetic? The CD, the receiver, and the speakers cannot hear the music. We can safely reason that they probably do not hear the music, yes? We can assume though that they must sample the CD digitally though. That we know for a fact. That's all we know for a fact. If the same were true of us, we would have no real reason to listen to a sequence of digital codes, but if we
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/22/2012 9:49 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 8:28 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/22/2012 4:24 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 6:09 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.netwrote: On 3/22/2012 2:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 22, 4:58 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: Then you agree with me: AI cannot make sense out of its world without converting or sampling it digitally. That which it fails to digitize is lost. Sure. What you don't see you don't see - which is almost all of the EM spectrum. Of course Bruno's theory is that it's all digital, but we're within the digits and cannot capture more than a measure zero. Yes, human beings can't detect everything either, but my point was that we know for certain that everything in an AI's world has to be modeled digitally, therefore a digital brain creates a digital world within it. I'm not sure that's so. All of our physical models of the world are based on continua. Continua can be described and reasoned about by a digital system and continuous models can be computed to arbitrarily high precision (which is what we actually do in science and engineering). That's because the world that they are modeling is actually not digital, Unsupported assertion. If the world is digital already, then why would you need to model it? Does a digital computer need a continua to open a digital file? but the model itself still is. No. So far as I know, no one has come up with a digital model of physics that isn't empirically falsified - and it isn't for want of trying. All the models are continuous and based on real numbers. It is just that all the calculations and measurements are digital, i.e. based on integers. That's what I'm saying. A model = calculations and measurements. That's what I mean by the modelling itself. If I write a book about physics, the book can be written in English but not speculating that physics itself is an English phenomenon. If there is a machine intelligence in there, we know that it must live in the world that we give it to sample digitally, whether or not it can produce output which we interpret non-digitally. It's back to symbol grounding again. What difference does it make to symbolic grounding whether the symbol refers to a continuum or an integer field? I never said that those were the two choices, you are the one who introduced continuity. Both analog and digital are methods of abstracting. I'm not talking about one kind of model versus another, I'm talking about concrete presentation versus abstract representation. My position is that our experience in the world is no model at all (although modeling is certainly part of it). Our experience is not a total experience of THE universe, but it is a total experience of OUR world (perceptual inertial framework), which includes the understanding that there is a difference and the tools to actually extend our world further into rest of the universe. The machine's world is not similarly open to expansion. It does not have the tools to extend its sense. You could connect a camera to Deep Blue through a printer port in it would never in a trillion years figure out how to use it. I have a digital CD playing on a digital receiver. The acoustic drivers are digital too. The music is not digital. Another unsupported assertion. How would you know? If music were digital you wouldn't need to hear it. You could look at a picture of the data and get the same experience. Some people claimed that digital audio sounded different - but double blind tests showed they were mistaken. That may be true, and that's not what I was talking about, but also I don't think that any kind of objective test like that prove that anyone is 'mistaken' about how something feels. It may be that doing a double blind test creates a placebo effect when subjectivity is being tested. And it might be you're blowing smoke because you don't like the facts. Just as the double slit test does unexpected things to light, we cannot assume that our subtle awareness can be manipulated on demand. That assumption itself is a cognitive bias which may very well contaminate the data. It seems to me that digital audio is colder, clearer, with more brittle and shallow percussion and more sibilance than analog. It's hard to say because I'm not comparing apples to apples, but I'm not sure that the experiment you are talking about did either. I don't know what assumptions they made. Also why does everyone seem to make the same exact mistake about how digital sounds to them? Why no people who insist that digital is more expressive and poetic? The CD, the receiver, and the speakers cannot hear the music. We can safely reason that they probably do not hear the music, yes? We can assume though that they must sample the CD digitally though. That we know for a fact. That's all we know for a fact. If the same were true of us, we would have no real reason to listen
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 20 Mar 2012, at 20:24, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 20, 1:27 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 20 Mar 2012, at 17:40, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 20, 12:01 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: to explain things. But comp is a (scientific, modest) theology, in which we can believe, hope, or fear, and which makes just many fundamental question technically formulable. There is no consideration that the very act of technical formulation could have an effect on the answer. As the Tao Te Ching begins: The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name. This is not modest at all, it is in fact a reckless and arrogant assumption. No, because it is presented as an assumption, not as a truth (like you did). Then comp agree with the TAO, the real thing cannot be named. But once you accept an assumption, if only for the sake of an argument, you can derive conclusion. The conclusion you derive relates only to your assumption though. Thanks for making this precise. That's the goal. The truth could in fact be precisely the opposite of the conclusion which presents itself without accepting an assumption. Yes. In that case, the accepting of the assumption itself actually prevents any possibility of seeing the error of the conclusion. ? It is the contrary. It is only by accepting the assumption that we can derive the conclusion, test them, and re-evaluate the assumption. This is because of the symmetry of consciousness. When we objectify our own awareness, it becomes a character within our awareness, and therefore denatured and lacking subjectivity. I don't see any reason for that. It sounds like the comp position is that since the real thing cannot be named, that lets us off the hook and we can just figure everything else out and leave a hole where consciousness/qualia is supposed to be. It is not the comp position. It is derived from it, and it is not used except when comparaing Plotinus' theology with machine's theology. I think of it instead that the unnamable nature of experience is a positive affirmation of epistemological validity. It is unnamable-ness itself. It the self-evident nature of truth itself (sense) which makes it true, not a mechanism which forces truth upon us. We can experience truth and illusion directly and indirectly but the fact of experience in the first place is perpetually true. No problem. Comp assumes that its own framework can accommodate all things and that no framework can reduce it to another, while further assuming that this assumption is irrelevant or unavoidable. It may be useful to think of it that way for specific purposes, but as a bet of universal significance, it seems to me an obvious catastrophe. Not at all. That is what we can partially test. Comp assumes only we can survive with a digitalizable body. It's not just 'we' but our entire participation in the world that is assumed to be digitally interchangeable. A digitizable body can only exist within a digitizable universe. False. The exact contrary has been proved. My point though, is that by assuming that things can be truly, ontologically digitized (and not merely imitated to the perceptual satisfaction of a given audience), comp already fails to recognize the use-mention distinction (http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use–mention_distinction) of consciousness. I don't see this. Assuming that we can survive with a digitized body is only the tip of the iceberg of assumptions about pattern that take pattern recognition utterly for granted. We don't need to take for granted any mental ability. Just the existence of a level of description. If you negate this, it means that you assume the level to be infinitely low, so that you need to introduce actual infinity and non computability of all levels. It is your right, but you fail to present a theory of this. Comp exports inorganic naive realism to a universal level and builds from there. In particular it does answer the question where does the universe come from?. The answer is, by the truth about addition and multiplication, and the technical details are accessible to any universal machines. You will ask: where does addition and multiplication comes from. This, in the comp theory can be answered: we will never know, at least in any publicly communicable way. Why add the extra step of addition and multiplication? To get a Turing complete ontology. What does it further us though to have a Turing complete ontology relate to the question in the first place? Instead of trying to make it answer 'where does the universe come from?', why not 'where does computing come from'? Because it is provable that computing exists once the addition and multiplication laws are assumed. Indeed computation has been discovered there. The deus ex mysterium of the latter answer nullifies any value of the former answer, which now becomes:
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 21, 5:12 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 20 Mar 2012, at 20:24, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 20, 1:27 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 20 Mar 2012, at 17:40, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 20, 12:01 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: to explain things. But comp is a (scientific, modest) theology, in which we can believe, hope, or fear, and which makes just many fundamental question technically formulable. There is no consideration that the very act of technical formulation could have an effect on the answer. As the Tao Te Ching begins: The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name. This is not modest at all, it is in fact a reckless and arrogant assumption. No, because it is presented as an assumption, not as a truth (like you did). Then comp agree with the TAO, the real thing cannot be named. But once you accept an assumption, if only for the sake of an argument, you can derive conclusion. The conclusion you derive relates only to your assumption though. Thanks for making this precise. That's the goal. The truth could in fact be precisely the opposite of the conclusion which presents itself without accepting an assumption. Yes. In that case, the accepting of the assumption itself actually prevents any possibility of seeing the error of the conclusion. ? Assumption: To test something scientifically, we should first flatten it with a steam roller. Conclusion: Once they are flattened, it can be clearly seen that all people are actually dead. It is the contrary. It is only by accepting the assumption that we can derive the conclusion, test them, and re-evaluate the assumption. How does that work out with the steam roller? 100 out of 100 of people flattened are revealed to be medically deceased. How does that allow us to re-evaluate the assumption? This is because of the symmetry of consciousness. When we objectify our own awareness, it becomes a character within our awareness, and therefore denatured and lacking subjectivity. I don't see any reason for that. I know. That's the problem. I happened to hear these lyrics yesterday on a biography of Oscar Hammerstein: A bell's not a bell 'til you ring it, A song's not a song 'til you sing it This is the symbol grounding problem, the use-mention distinction, the Chinese Room, the China Brain, Leibniz windmill, etc. It's an interesting problem in that degree to which the problem exists depends upon where you are looking at it from. In 3p, there is no reason to make such a distinction. Since the program has to define a bell as ringable or a song as singable in advance, there is no way to 'show' the difference. In 1p, the perspective is exactly flipped. The continuous discovery and participation in the 'show' is everything. The assumption of Comp cannot be made without flattening 1p to a 3p shadow. It is a toy model of 1p but has no sense of presentation, only an black box where numbers dream (of things besides numbers, presumably...for reasons we can never know). It sounds like the comp position is that since the real thing cannot be named, that lets us off the hook and we can just figure everything else out and leave a hole where consciousness/qualia is supposed to be. It is not the comp position. It is derived from it, and it is not used except when comparaing Plotinus' theology with machine's theology. I still think that is the implicit Comp position. I don't see any Comp argument make a point of trying to relate specific qualia to comp, it is always partitioned off as if it weren't the source of all human experience and epistemology but rather some troublesome bag of extra screws and unidentifiable parts. I think of it instead that the unnamable nature of experience is a positive affirmation of epistemological validity. It is unnamable-ness itself. It the self-evident nature of truth itself (sense) which makes it true, not a mechanism which forces truth upon us. We can experience truth and illusion directly and indirectly but the fact of experience in the first place is perpetually true. No problem. Comp assumes that its own framework can accommodate all things and that no framework can reduce it to another, while further assuming that this assumption is irrelevant or unavoidable. It may be useful to think of it that way for specific purposes, but as a bet of universal significance, it seems to me an obvious catastrophe. Not at all. That is what we can partially test. Comp assumes only we can survive with a digitalizable body. It's not just 'we' but our entire participation in the world that is assumed to be digitally interchangeable. A digitizable body can only exist within a digitizable universe. False. The exact contrary has been proved. How has it been proved? How can we be ourselves without a world to exist in? My point though, is
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: on the 3-view you can have on your two necessary existing 1-views. [...] if you confuse the 1-view on the 1-view, (really still just the 1-view), and some 3-view on 1-views, which is just empathy [...] At the end of UDA, we know it is not 3p, but 1p-plural. This illustrates the problem I have with your ideas, it's not your mathematics it's the assumption you make right at the start which is the foundation for everything else. The foundation is sand. You make all sorts of distinctions between convoluted view and p plural stuff but you can't give a scrap of evidence that such differences actually exist, nor can you give even the ghost of a hint of a hint of a idea as to how or why such a enormous change (that is nevertheless undetectable by the scientific method) has occurred, you just ask us to believe that it has. You don't claim that one hydrogen atom is different from another and I'm sure you will grant that information can be duplicated, and yet when information and generic atoms get together and form another identical body and brain of Bruno Marchal then for reasons you never explain you say you've got to start differentiating between different views and start talking about 1p,2p,3p'. And through all this science can find no difference to make a differentiation between. I'm sorry Bruno but I just can't get past that. For example: If the body and brain of the Helsinki man is annihilated a instant after the information in his body and brain was read out and used to make identical copies in Washington and Moscow then you say the Helsinki man is dead. But I don't understand why you say that, there is certainly someone (actually in this example 2 people) who would very very strongly disagree with you about him being dead because he remembers being the Helsinki man and remembers walking into the duplication chamber just seconds ago, and he has no gaps or jumps or discontinuity of any sort in his subjective experience. He remembers walking out of the chamber only to find himself in a distant city, and now you tell him he's dead. He wouldn't believe you and neither would I. I just don't see what more the Helsinki man needs to do to survive, he's survived from his own point of view and after all that's the only one that matters. I don't assume physics. That doesn't sound good. we are neutral on the natire of matter. Nor that. And if you're not a big fan of matter I don't understand why it's so significant to you that the atoms in the Helsinki man's body have been rearranged into ashes, especially when there are 2 perfectly good identical replacement bodies available that were made of atoms that were just as good as the atoms the have in Helsinki and arranged in exactly the same way . John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: No, my critique is that you seem to not see a problem with the fact that COMP shows that the physical world is epiphenomena and thus unnecessary. I see this as denying the mere possibility of observational falsification. AS I have said before, you seem to reason as if the your chalkboard (as the one in your picture http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/courses/Saturday_20070602_LNash/t_blackboard_1.png) does not really exist. If you say that the physical world does exist but only as a collective hallucination or dream, but if I understand the Bpp concept correctly, this is not quite right as it makes the possibility of relationship between bodies epiphenomena. Ummm, I need to understand the role of the Girard-Abramski like theory with COMP. Stephen, I am starting to think that you have fundamentally misunderstood the UDA. You have repeatedly voiced this misconception, that COMP implies that the physical world does not exist. It exists, but it is not fundamental. It is still phenomenal. I will respond to your other message shortly, and discuss the issue of communicability and the need for physical instantiation a little more. which is exactly what we are claiming when we say that ... our generalized brains ... are this and that, such as what is implied by ...the latter is just a restatement of the former. The point is that we first need to dig a bit deeper and establish by natural mathematical means that 1) digital substitution is a sound mathematical concept and 2) that it is possible. 1) Yes, thanks to the notion of level, digital substitution is well defined, and sound (if the level is correctly chosen). Yes, and this makes it local not global and thus is not consistent with a representation in Platonic terms. UDA shows the passage from local to global. Why and how it occurs. You lost me. Could you be more specific? Are you thinking of UDA3? But is this global plurality not collapsed in UDA4 and UDA5? Let me be clear about what I am thinking with regards to the words local and global. By Global I mean pertaining to all of a collection of many from any kind of partitioning on the collection. By local I mean pertaining to a collection from only one partitioning of the collection. For example, in physics, an effect is global if it is invariant to shifts from one point of view to another, the potential of the electromagnetic field is a good example. In physics, an effect is local if it vanishes when one shifts to a different point of view. 2) That it is (in principle) possible *is* the comp assumption. OK, but you are assuming more. You are assuming that computations have particular and definite properties merely because they are true, true does not apply to computations, but to proposition. This does not change the implication of what I wrote. You are still thinking that mere existence defines properties. My claim is that this is ontologically and epistemologically incoherent as it implies that the difference of the properties that one object X has from the properties that another object Y has follows merely from the existence of X and Y. How does the mere existence of X and Y require that X and Y are different at all? you are claiming implicitly that properties supervene on the soundness of the object having such properties. sound applies to theories, not to object. OK. So we say that if there is a sound theory of an object then the object must exist? I am just trying to be sure I understand. This is, I claim, equivalent to postulating the existence of a Universal Observer that can somehow percieve all UTM strings and define by fiat which are equivalent to which You miss the 1-indeterminacy here. We don't need to know which computations are equivalent or not, because we live them. No, I was considering how you assume that properties follow from mere existence. You are thinking of theories as constructions to define the existence of an object, say a computation, and then forgetting that you constructed the theory that implied the properties of the object so that you can claim look it exists and has properties completely independent of me. This is just the logical conclusion of thinking that computations are independent of the necessity of any physical implementation. This is one piece of your thinking that upsets me, you are taking the universality concept too far. without having to actually implement all of them by step 8. Again, just because a computation does not require a particular physical implementation does not make it independent of the need for at least one implementation. To claim the contrary is equivalent to talking about things that you cannot even indirectly name or describe. You have effectively severed all possibility of contact between the Platonic realm
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 21 Mar 2012, at 17:40, Craig Weinberg wrote (partially). It's not just 'we' but our entire participation in the world that is assumed to be digitally interchangeable. A digitizable body can only exist within a digitizable universe. False. The exact contrary has been proved. How has it been proved? How can we be ourselves without a world to exist in? Sure. What has been proved is that if comp is true we can only be in a non digitizable world. Digital physics is non sense, except as tool for building approximate theory. Comp is not digital physics. If you negate this, it means that you assume the level to be infinitely low, No, it means I understand that your assumption that description can be quantified is simplistic and inaccurate. Description of my (generalized) brain. With your theory we have zombie. But that's OK. remember that when we assume something, it does not mean that we believe it is true. I am not interested in doing philosophy. Just as these words seem word- like enough to us doesn't mean that they can't be revealed as generic pixels on closer inspection. There is no universal level of description, it is entirely relative to the sensory capacities of the audience - the qualitative capacities, not just the quantitative resolution. You are talking in another theory. I work in the theory comp, that's all. Read the paper to convince you that I do not put the 1p under the rug. You stop at step zero. It is your right. so that you need to introduce actual infinity and non computability of all levels. It is your right, but you fail to present a theory of this. That has been your knock on me the whole time, but you aren't seeing that my position is an order of magnitude more radical than that. I am saying that finite and infinite qualities are not relevant at all. Not even a little bit. The uniqueness of the self and the indeterminacy of 1p are important but nearly irrelevant compared to the presentational-participatory aspects. It's not just that we feel different from other people or that we can't predict how living things behave as well as we might chemical or physical reactions. It makes sense that we would seize on these aspects as important because we can work with them arithmetically; they are the most quantitative functions of the self. These are only the flattened shadows of selfness though. They mention of the self but they don't actually use it. A picture of a bell, a printout of a song, etc. That we feel unique or free is nothing compared to the reality that we feel at all. This is the sticking point. If we had reason to believe that programs or furniture could be coaxed into feeling in the first place, we would not be having this discussion. We would be talking instead about whether it is moral to turn off our computers or to replace them when we get tired of them. Nice. Comp exports inorganic naive realism to a universal level and builds from there. In particular it does answer the question where does the universe come from?. The answer is, by the truth about addition and multiplication, and the technical details are accessible to any universal machines. You will ask: where does addition and multiplication comes from. This, in the comp theory can be answered: we will never know, at least in any publicly communicable way. Why add the extra step of addition and multiplication? To get a Turing complete ontology. What does it further us though to have a Turing complete ontology relate to the question in the first place? Instead of trying to make it answer 'where does the universe come from?', why not 'where does computing come from'? Because it is provable that computing exists once the addition and multiplication laws are assumed. Indeed computation has been discovered there. I have no problem with that, but what does that have to do with computing becoming the universe? Study the sane04 paper. Or search in the archive. It is a consequence of comp that physics emerge from the way numbers can bet on arithmetical relations. It is not entirely obvious. The deus ex mysterium of the latter answer nullifies any value of the former answer, which now becomes: where does the universe come from? we will never know, at least in any publicly communicable way. For the universe of number, or arithmetical truth, you are right. But the rest becomes explainable for that, as interfering numbers dreams, which are defined by sequences and subsequences of numbers in arithmetic, or the UD*. It seems to me that the idea of numbers dreams is a plug for the gaping rift between the two. If we have numbers, we don't need dreams, ? I can unplug the monitor and sound card of my computer and all programs will function without them. Why would the programs (even uber sophisticated meta programs) need to dream? They don't need to dream. But they can (trivially with comp that I assume all the
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 21 Mar 2012, at 18:35, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: on the 3-view you can have on your two necessary existing 1-views. [...] if you confuse the 1-view on the 1-view, (really still just the 1-view), and some 3-view on 1-views, which is just empathy [...] At the end of UDA, we know it is not 3p, but 1p-plural. This illustrates the problem I have with your ideas, it's not your mathematics it's the assumption you make right at the start which is the foundation for everything else. Which assumption? The foundation is sand. You make all sorts of distinctions between convoluted view and p plural stuff Those admit precise and simple definition, related to the duplication and multiplication thought experience. First person = content of a diary bring in the duplication devices. Third person = content of a diary of an external observers. First person plural = content of the diaries of a collection of person duplicated together. but you can't give a scrap of evidence that such differences actually exist, Just look at the content of the diaries. It contains statements like I predict that I will feel to be in W or in M, I am in M, so I win, pr I predict that I will see Flying circus, but I see nothing recognizable, so I fail, etc. nor can you give even the ghost of a hint of a hint of a idea as to how or why such a enormous change (that is nevertheless undetectable by the scientific method) has occurred, you just ask us to believe that it has. Well, if you believe in comp, the difference is as big as finding oneself in W, and finding oneself in M. I have no real clue what you are talking about. You don't claim that one hydrogen atom is different from another and I'm sure you will grant that information can be duplicated, and yet when information and generic atoms get together and form another identical body and brain of Bruno Marchal then for reasons you never explain you say you've got to start differentiating between different views and start talking about 1p,2p,3p'. And through all this science can find no difference to make a differentiation between. I'm sorry Bruno but I just can't get past that. I am sorry for you. You are the first to have a problem with the difference of the 1-view and 3-view. Those are rather standard in coginitive science, and already use in projective geometry, in Everett, in AI. Of course, once duplication is introduced, it makes the 1-view indeterminate. But as you say oddness should be expected in such setting. For example: If the body and brain of the Helsinki man is annihilated a instant after the information in his body and brain was read out and used to make identical copies in Washington and Moscow then you say the Helsinki man is dead. I have never said that. I have said that the original is annihilated. If I said it, it might have been a slip on my tongue, or I said it in a context to get a reductio ad absurdo, or just to say he is annihilated, unlike the step 5 where the one copied is not cut. Obviously, by just the definition of comp, he does not die. But I don't understand why you say that, there is certainly someone (actually in this example 2 people) who would very very strongly disagree with you about him being dead because he remembers being the Helsinki man and remembers walking into the duplication chamber just seconds ago, and he has no gaps or jumps or discontinuity of any sort in his subjective experience. Yes. As I told you in the last post, which you might reply, that is exactly my point. If the guy annihilated die, then he would say that P(M) = P(W) = 1/2, and there would be no 1-indeterminacy. He remembers walking out of the chamber only to find himself in a distant city, and now you tell him he's dead. I have never said that. He wouldn't believe you and neither would I. I just don't see what more the Helsinki man needs to do to survive, he's survived from his own point of view and after all that's the only one that matters. So all your fuss about not understanding the difference between the 1- view and the 3-view are illustrated by an example where you put in my mouth the exact contrary of what I am saying. we are neutral on the natire of matter. Nor that. And if you're not a big fan of matter I don't understand why it's so significant to you that the atoms in the Helsinki man's body have been rearranged into ashes, especially when there are 2 perfectly good identical replacement bodies available that were made of atoms that were just as good as the atoms the have in Helsinki and arranged in exactly the same way . To simplfy the reasoning, but you have to study it. The paragraph above shows that you have not yet understand what is meant by comp, given that comp implies by definition that the guy in Helsinki does not die. You are
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: Dear Joseph, How do numbers implement that necessary capacity to define each other and themselves? What kind of relational structure is necessary? From what I can tell, it looks like a net of Indra where every jewel, here a number, reflects all others. This is a non-well founded structure. You'll have to be more explicit than this if I am to make any sense of it. There are many arguments about how the brain is a classical machine and those are fine but if you examine them they all seem to be narrowly focused on some particular aspect of brain physiology. Max Tegmark's paper focused on ion transport. Wrong. Tegmark's result is *very *general because it shows that decoherence timescales are *many *orders of magnitude smaller than those of brain functioning (neuron firing, etc.). Dis he consider any form of mechanism that might factor up the degrees of freedom in brain structures? no. Did he consider structures that will cause attenuation of the phonon transport mechanism that he was using in his model? No. His paper is the modern equivalent of the papers written by eminent scientist back in the day that proved that bumblebees could not fly. Pfft. Does not the fact that quantum coherence mechanism have actually been found in biological systems that operate at room temperature and timescales that are useful? Yeah yeah, I never hear the end how mind-blowing it is that quantum effects play a role in photosynthesis. In the case of photosynthesis, it increases the efficiency of the effect to useful proportions. QM effects could play a similar role in brain processing and may also use EPR effects to synchronize sense data so that we have the unity of awareness effect. A study of the brains of schizophrenics and others that have dissociative disorders may show this. Right. I am not entirely opposed to this idea. Preliminary work on quantum networks shows that they have intriguing differences from classical networks. (Example: entangled quantum networks can rewire themselves globally via local node operations (1 http://arxiv.org/abs/1011.5630), so this is somewhat tantalizing, because the unity of consciousness for me is a fairly big problem.) Please, just be a bit agnostic and not doctrinaire. I am just a realistic agnostic. (Also, I am playing the Devil's Advocate a bit here.) I do appreciate that! Resent research has proven that quantum effects are indeed used by organic systems to increase their efficiency in energy conversion processes, Indeed, for biophysical systems whose relevant timescales are comparable to those of decoherence. and we have barely scratched the surface, so why are we so eager to go all in with the assumptions about classicality? I for one am not so eager. I am neutral on whether consciousness is related to quantum phenomena, in spite of the contravening evidence. In fact, I am probably more open to the idea than the average commentator. But it doesn't matter in this context. OK, then let's put that aside for now and address the measure problem directly. What is the measure supposed to do, exactly? I would like to see your explanation of it. Measure is what gives sense to the question When I perform a physics experiment, what do I expect to observe?assuming that is what you are referring to. I won't pretend to have all the answers here. You seem to be skeptical of the idea that such a measure exists. If it doesn't, then COMP is false. OK. What I am claiming is that the measure is not a global regime; it cannot be for reasons that involve computational complexity issues. My proposal is a local notion of measure, as per what Prof. Kitada explains in his work http://www.kitada.com/works.html. Waht I have found is a general sketch of how Pratt's Chu space idea can work with Kitada's Local Systems, but I am not yet adept enough to create a formal model of this. It is a bit over my paygrade... So, in summary, I claim that measures can exist, but not a global measure What is a global measure? Measure in this context is the measure on computational states going through your current state (which exists assuming COMP is true). If the measure doesn't exist, or has other problems (white rabbit etc.) then COMP is exploded. that would make sense of When I perform a physics experiment, what do I expect to observe?; since the physics experiment is local so to will be the expected results of the observation. There is no such thing as a global observation and local observations cannot be arbitrarily summed or integrated over to create global observations. (Simplified reason: Observables are, in general, non-commutative and thus there does not exist a unique ordering over them. For more details I recommend some study of C* algebras or von Neumann's Mathematical Foundations of
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 21, 3:23 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 21 Mar 2012, at 17:40, Craig Weinberg wrote (partially). It's not just 'we' but our entire participation in the world that is assumed to be digitally interchangeable. A digitizable body can only exist within a digitizable universe. False. The exact contrary has been proved. How has it been proved? How can we be ourselves without a world to exist in? Sure. What has been proved is that if comp is true we can only be in a non digitizable world. Digital physics is non sense, except as tool for building approximate theory. Comp is not digital physics. How does a digital artificial intelligence make sense of it's world without converting or sampling every truth about that world available to it into digital? If you negate this, it means that you assume the level to be infinitely low, No, it means I understand that your assumption that description can be quantified is simplistic and inaccurate. Description of my (generalized) brain. With your theory we have zombie. Never zombie, only puppet. Zombie is like calling water 'wet fire'. But that's OK. remember that when we assume something, it does not mean that we believe it is true. I am not interested in doing philosophy. Just as these words seem word- like enough to us doesn't mean that they can't be revealed as generic pixels on closer inspection. There is no universal level of description, it is entirely relative to the sensory capacities of the audience - the qualitative capacities, not just the quantitative resolution. You are talking in another theory. I work in the theory comp, that's all. Read the paper to convince you that I do not put the 1p under the rug. It's not under the rug, it is showing the bottom of the rug and saying it's the floor. You stop at step zero. It is your right. so that you need to introduce actual infinity and non computability of all levels. It is your right, but you fail to present a theory of this. That has been your knock on me the whole time, but you aren't seeing that my position is an order of magnitude more radical than that. I am saying that finite and infinite qualities are not relevant at all. Not even a little bit. The uniqueness of the self and the indeterminacy of 1p are important but nearly irrelevant compared to the presentational-participatory aspects. It's not just that we feel different from other people or that we can't predict how living things behave as well as we might chemical or physical reactions. It makes sense that we would seize on these aspects as important because we can work with them arithmetically; they are the most quantitative functions of the self. These are only the flattened shadows of selfness though. They mention of the self but they don't actually use it. A picture of a bell, a printout of a song, etc. That we feel unique or free is nothing compared to the reality that we feel at all. This is the sticking point. If we had reason to believe that programs or furniture could be coaxed into feeling in the first place, we would not be having this discussion. We would be talking instead about whether it is moral to turn off our computers or to replace them when we get tired of them. Nice. Comp exports inorganic naive realism to a universal level and builds from there. In particular it does answer the question where does the universe come from?. The answer is, by the truth about addition and multiplication, and the technical details are accessible to any universal machines. You will ask: where does addition and multiplication comes from. This, in the comp theory can be answered: we will never know, at least in any publicly communicable way. Why add the extra step of addition and multiplication? To get a Turing complete ontology. What does it further us though to have a Turing complete ontology relate to the question in the first place? Instead of trying to make it answer 'where does the universe come from?', why not 'where does computing come from'? Because it is provable that computing exists once the addition and multiplication laws are assumed. Indeed computation has been discovered there. I have no problem with that, but what does that have to do with computing becoming the universe? Study the sane04 paper. Or search in the archive. It is a consequence of comp that physics emerge from the way numbers can bet on arithmetical relations. It is not entirely obvious. I don't have a problem with physics emerging from comp, I have a problem with consciousness emerging from either one. The deus ex mysterium of the latter answer nullifies any value of the former answer, which now becomes: where does the universe come from? we will never know, at least in any publicly communicable way. For the universe of number, or
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 20, 1:52 am, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: might say that the standard of Integers is their truth, but that itself is a measure requiring a standard of its own and, again, a means to compare the standard with the numbers. What is the means of comparison? Hi Stephen, I think that the means of comparison is sense. Not mere functional detection but subjective experience which relates local detections to the entirety of experiential possibilities. Sense is not just adding experiences in a subjective vacuum which somehow 'make sense' to a subject with no history, it can only make sense if it emerges out of a context which makes sense already. We are a 'chip off the old (timeless actually) block', and as such, we tend to recognize the old block - especially the part we chipped off of. Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/20/2012 8:36 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 20, 1:52 am, Stephen P. Kingstephe...@charter.net wrote: might say that the standard of Integers is their truth, but that itself is a measure requiring a standard of its own and, again, a means to compare the standard with the numbers. What is the means of comparison? Hi Stephen, I think that the means of comparison is sense. Not mere functional detection but subjective experience which relates local detections to the entirety of experiential possibilities. Sense is not just adding experiences in a subjective vacuum which somehow 'make sense' to a subject with no history, it can only make sense if it emerges out of a context which makes sense already. We are a 'chip off the old (timeless actually) block', and as such, we tend to recognize the old block - especially the part we chipped off of. Craig Hi Craig, I agree, it is sense or what the referent of the word sense is. My point is that sense or whatever one designates it with is not the primitive stuff, it has a separate identity. Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mar 20, 10:34 am, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: Hi Craig, I agree, it is sense or what the referent of the word sense is. My point is that sense or whatever one designates it with is not the primitive stuff, it has a separate identity. Right. To me it's pretty clear that numbers and names are only an aspect of sense - ways for one form of sensemaking to make sense of another. Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 19 Mar 2012, at 19:59, meekerdb wrote: On 3/19/2012 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Mar 2012, at 00:40, meekerdb wrote: On 3/18/2012 10:25 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: You seem to continue to oscillate between there is no 1- indeterminacy, because ... 100% for Moscow, and there is an indeterminacy (but it is trivial, nothing new). There is rock stability and no oscillation whatsoever; Indeterminacy is always with us, in the real world thanks to deterministic chaos, in physics thanks to Heisenberg and even in pure mathematics thanks to Godel and Turing, but your complications do not add any more because no matter how convoluted you make them as long as you make clear who I and you and he is your additional probabilities always boil down to 0% or 100%. And if you don't make it clear then everything is meaningless. I agree with your criticism of Bruno's use of pronouns, If you can help me to understand John Clark's critics on the use of pronouns. He is the one who mocks the many distinctions I do introduce, like notably the first person and the third person. He fails to understand that the protocol verification bears on the personal account of the duplicated people. The question bears on the future personla experience, so comp eliminates all answers like I will see all movies, because none of the copies will say I have seen all movies. Almost all people will confirm that at the middle of the movie they cannot predict the next image, except by vague description like random pattern. Clark is inconsistent because he acknowledges the existence of the 1-I, and at the same time, he asserts that the probability question, asked to the guy before the multiplication is done, is non sense, because you are duplicated, and here that you is ambiguous. I agree that you is ambiguous. He forget that the 1-I will just be the one asked to verify the prediction. Are you saying there is a unique soul, the 1-I, that will be in one duplicate or the other but not both? Otherwise there is no one asked to verify the prediction. There are two and one answers Verified and one answers Falsified. OK, but this is not a problem. You know in advance that you will feel like being one of them, and not both. We might defined the soul by the 1-view, and this one remains unique ... from its personal point of view. So the soul is unique from the soul point of view. We can intellectually attribute a soul to someone else, and that soul might be unique or not. This can be decided later, because it does not change the reasoning. So when you say there is no one asked to verify the prediction, I would say there is just many one to which we should asked. The situation is similar with quantum mechanics (without collapse). If I am undecided between going to the North or to the South for my holiday, and decide to use a quantum coin, like 1/sqrt(2)(up + down), to take the decision, QM will predict that the wave (pertaining on me + the particle) evolves in two branches. In one of them I am going to the North, and in the other I am going to the South. But from my perspective, the experience will be the same whatever the indeterminacy is ground on, and in all case I remain for the whole experience one and entire. I can only believe intellectually in the other branch, in case I am a believer in QM. It is obvious, in the WM duplication, with the simple definition of 1-I given, that if the guy said I don't know, I would say either in W or in M, both copies will confirm it. If he predict W, one copy will confirm it, and one copy will refute it (and that's enough, given that Clark already agree they both have the same right of being John Clark). But that's John's point that after the duplication the probabilities are 1 and 0 - which is always the case after a probability is actualized. Sure. If I win the lottery, the probability that I have won the lottery is 1. So you need some way of expressing the probability *before* the duplication, but without the indexial you. Here I am not sure why. The indexical you can be duplicated, both the 3-I (the body plan), and the 1-I, the owner of memories, making the candidate just uncertain about his future, but still certain (with comp and all default assumptions) that he will have a future. He just does not know which one. The use of pronouns does not need to be changed more than in any situation with non determinate outcome (be it classical ignorance, quantum-MW-ignorance, or comp). The reason of the indeterminacies can be very different, but the personal outcomes are equivalent. I think an operational meaning can be given in terms of frequentist probabilities in a recursive repetition of the experiment, i.e. some diaries will read MWWMWMWMMWWWM and some will read WWMMMWWMWMWMWMW but
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I think we're arguing about whether duplication of persons provides a valid model of quantum uncertainty; at least I think that's what Bruno's argument tries to show. Bruno claims he's found a completely new type of uncertainty that has nothing to do with Quantum Mechanics or Godel-Turing style uncertainty, and I don't buy it for one second. he just want to avoid identifying the Helsinki man as 'the real Bruno'. But suppose the transmission and reconstruction takes a year, or two. Is the Helsinki guy dead for the interval? The Helsinki Man is certainly not dead from his perspective, from his point of view the preceding year occurred instantly and absolutely nothing unusual happened to him, but rather it was the rest of the universe that acted weird, everything except him suddenly and discontinuously jumped ahead by one year while he went along just as before smooth as silk. And I would maintain that in this matter it is only the perspective of the Helsinki man that is important, the opinion that others may have on the matter is not relevant, if the Helsinki man thinks he's alive then he is because subjectivity is the most important thing in the universe, or at least it is in my opinion. You're equivocating on identical. I don't think so. Of course I've seen many things that are identical in the sense that I can't tell them apart: U.S. coins of the same year and value for example or small red balls that table-top magicians use. Magicians use such objects because, if you can't or don't see them momentarily then you can't tell if they've been switched. Magicians can use objects that, while not identical, are similar enough that when they are exchanged they cause no change in a consciousness. So your example only strengthens my argument, the duplicating chamber need not make copies as exact as the laws of physics allows for all I've said to be true, a few million times less precision would probably still work just fine. After all, what is of interest here is subjectivity not objectivity, and the objects a stage magician uses are subjectively absolutely identical. which of course is why you had to postulate a perfectly symmetrical room The room only needs to be good enough that you the copy or you the original can not perceive anything unsymmetrical. It need not be objectively perfect. and that's why Bruno considers two duplications (and annihilation of the guy in Helsinki) to avoid identifying an 'original' by continuity. But again its only subjective continuity that matters and the annihilated man has as much continuity as anyone, he walks into the chamber in Helsinki and boom, there he is in Moscow and Washington nice and smooth with no gaps whatsoever. If I found out I was the copy what should I do? I suppose I should morn the death of John Clark, but how can I, I'm not dead. If I am the copy would that mean that I have no real past and my life is meaningless? Is it important, or should I just burn the tape and forget all about it? I'll tell you as soon as you tell me the probability that you'll be the guy whose gun misfires if you repeat the experiment. 100% John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)
On 3/20/2012 10:46 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 20, 10:34 am, Stephen P. Kingstephe...@charter.net wrote: Hi Craig, I agree, it is sense or what the referent of the word sense is. My point is that sense or whatever one designates it with is not the primitive stuff, it has a separate identity. Right. To me it's pretty clear that numbers and names are only an aspect of sense - ways for one form of sensemaking to make sense of another. Craig Dear Craig, What you are pointing out is an example of second order relations and is very important to note that if we are considering more than just first person experience (for example, what a solipsist might experience) then we need to have a framework to consider n-th order cases. This moves us out of ontology per se and into epistemology. Ontology deals with primitives but only from the position of already having an epistemology as we must presume the existence of ourselves and the ability to communicate with each other to even have the conversation. Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.